Malala: “Would I have chosen a different life?“

This is a Global Player original podcast. I have rights. I have the right of education. I have the right to play. I have the right to sing. I have the right to talk. I have the right to go to market. I have the right to speak up. That is a 14-year-old girl talking from her village in Pakistan in the Swat Valley. about the importance of child's education and particular girls' education.

Less than a year later, she was on the school bus going home when a Taliban gunman boarded, asked where's Malala, and shot her in the head. After that, she became an international phenomenon. She was brought to Britain in intensive care for operations to remove the bullet and to stabilise her condition. Two years after that, she became the youngest ever recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. Welcome the winner of the 2014 Nobel Peace Prize, Malala Youssef Sai. I'm really honored.

That I'm here today with so energetic, passionate, and peace-loving people. I'm really happy. The reason for which I'm here is going to be hard. That is. And that is education. This word seems a bit complex. But it simply means the right to learning. And when I come to these stages, speak at the UN or give a Nobel Peace Prize speech. I simply ask That the right to learning should be given to every child. I ask for nothing else.

Since when Malala Yousafsai has been to university to Oxford and has carried on championing the cause of girls in education. She is a phenomenon. But who is she? On the NewsAgence today an extended interview with Malala and the battles she's fought and continues to fight. Welcome to the NewsAgen.

The news agents. Well, I'm delighted to say that we are joined in the studio by Malala. And uh not only that, Malala has come dressed in colour coordinated tones for the news agents itself, which is obviously hugely flattering to us. And I think you are our first Nobel Prize winner that we've ever had in the studio. So very warm welcome to you. Congratulations on the book. I guess we all thought we knew who Malala was, given the story, what happened, being shot, then coming to Birmingham.

And actually the book reveals the the pressures that as well that go with sort of being this person that we all sense we've got a sense of their identity, which is probably completely wider than mark. the world came to know my story when I was only fifteen years old and I was defined as brave, courageous, girl activist. But I was only fifteen years old and I didn't really know much about myself at the time. I wanted to make friends, I wanted to have a normal life.

and this is what I have been sharing in this book about my journey navigating friendships, love life, mental health and I'm reintroducing myself, not as an idol, not as a symbol, but a young woman navigating her way. And a young woman who had her childhood, if not stolen, then greatly compressed. And so you are relearning all the things, frankly, about how to dress as a student, how to say no to your mum, how to find friends when you're world famous.

how to navigate dating, right? As somebody whose name has gone ahead of themselves. And it's really funny, this book, and it's really it's very touching, actually. It's you know, the first the first person you meet as a student is called Cora. And it's about the friendship that develops because you finally find somebody you can trust, right? At college I had one goal, to make as many friends as possible. I wanted a social life more than anything. I prioritise it over my studies and sleep even.

Because at high school in the UK I had really struggled to make friends. I was a lonely student and by the end of my school time I had only made one friend only because she fell out with her other best friend, so I filled in the gap. At college I was signing up for every society, every club, because I wanted to meet as many people and I thought maybe I'll make one or two more friends.

Friendship was something that I had missed from Pakistan. I had a lot of friends, you know, as as a kid in Pakistan. I l I was a troublemaker. I loved to play, loved to chat, but all of that changed when extremism started and then my life took a very different turn. I became an activist at a young age. And I thought, okay, I'm maybe I'm not supposed to have a normal life. I'm not supposed to have friends. This is how I internalized the recognition that I received.

But at college I thought maybe this is a short window of time where I can be more myself because nobody's watching

And I can make some friends. And you also describe, Malala, the sense of guilt that comes with just doing normal things. That everytime you're not talking about women's education, every time you're not actually going off and advocating you're thinking, Well, is this a waste of time? Should I be at this party? Should I be like hanging out listening to music? Because I became an activist at a young age I had more of an idealist understanding of how activism works. When you read about

a famous activist from history, you're being told that they changed the world with giving one speech. Or, you know, that they were making change happening. Every single minute of their life. So that was the understanding that I had. I thought that I am not supposed to be here in college, I'm not supposed to be laughing with my friends, I'm supposed to be

somewhere else. Uh, and that I was not living up to the expectations. And I always thought that the recognition I have received, the Nobel Peace Prize, that this was a huge responsibility and I had to prove it for the rest of my life. That I deserved it. And I cared about the girls who were out of school.

And I thought, like, you know, when when people invite you to something, maybe this is the moment that everything will change. Of course I have learnt through my activism now because I have done it for so long that that's not how things work. It's actually incremental, it's step by step. It's the collective effort that can help us make a lasting change.

and we have to be more strategic in how we play a role. But at the time I felt overwhelmed and there was a time when I travelled to three countries in a week or so because I was prioritizing fundraising and girls' education advocacy. Uh and I was also trying to manage my studies and sleep and also socialize. So there was a lot going on. People listening to this are hearing the activists. the woman who has dedicated herself to children's education, girls' education.

But there's also a fun loving teenager, a mischief maker, you know, a person who gets up to fun and jinx and all the stuff that you should do when you're young. But you're at university and you've got the pressure to go and do these talks. You are also the main breadwinner for your family. You are trying to learn. You are trying to make friends. And you are being judged at every single turn.

Whether you come back from rowing and you're wearing a pair of jeans, in which case in Pakistan, people start losing their shit about it, or you're wearing a headscarf and the Daily Mail says, Why are you a slave to you know the traditional roles of women in Islam. I just don't know how you coped with that.

I was shocked that people would be commenting about me wearing jeans or they would have a problem with me wearing a headscarf. But it's just a reminder that women are constantly scrutinized and it's not easy for us.

at college I just wanted to be a normal student. I was not there to represent any culture or do some campaign for a specific cause. I remember receiving this call from my parents after the whole genes backlash happened, but they were really concerned and they asked if I would like defend myself or issue a statement and I told them that I am not going to say anything because

Um, why is it that always girls are targeted? When my brothers moved to the UK, they immediately switched their dress code. They were wearing jeans and top. But nobody criticized them. There was no controversy. But only when I decided to wear jeans it became a whole controversy. I would always worry w uh about what I say in the public, what I wear, who am I upsetting this time.

But I also realize that there's no ideal world in which everybody would be happy with you. I need to f stay focused on my mission and that is helping girls get their education. So I want to stick to that. But I also want to be myself. you know, I I'm still a young person who's navigating her way and why am I not allowed to explore different things, whether that is what I want to wear and how I want to experience my life.

I had to challenge myself in having this very fixed view about how I was supposed to live. And because I became an activist at a young age, I thought that I was supposed to live my life in in one way. And then I realize that I'm not even gonna grow if I don't allow myself to have these experiences. Like I don't even know who I am and somehow I have to make sure that nobody is saying a b a bad comment, like if that is the way I determine my life, I will not be true to myself.

John touched on something very important um that you wrote Malala, which is you're not allowed to work when you're at Oxford. Uh they make that clear. Your tutor says you're falling behind. You say, Ah, I'm sorry, I've gotta go and give a talk to I think it's with Tim Cook at one point and to the UN the next point. And then you tell us about a corporate speech that you've got to do where you're earning money. And the importance of that is you are the main breadwinner in your family now.

you are funding your whole family, your brothers, money's going back to Pakistan to your wider family, presumably cousins. So we get a sense, I think, on some level that whilst the activism comes very much from the heart, you also feel that you're slightly being marketed at this point. I mean is that something that

you feel very concerned about that you're you also have to play this role. You have to write the books. You have to get out there. You have to speak. Because your whole family is now de dependent on it. Yeah, you know, like in in Pakistan we come from a very like humble background and when we moved to the UK my dad had to leave everything behind. So we had to start a new life.

And then we were relying on the book money or some speaking money. So I have been helping and supporting my family and even now I like I support them. This shift happened really quickly. Like I was still a student, a teenager while I started doing these engagements and of course it meant that I had this pressure at college time as well. It's not that

You know, I d I didn't want to do that because of course I I care about my family and I want to make sure we have a good life and we can help as many people as possible. What was challenging at the time was that I had to maintain my studies and my college life and at the same time be doing all of this and we doing advocacy with it. So maintaining that was becoming more and more difficult.

But in my later months at college, I then ensured that I get academic support and other help that is there for students at college. I was hesitant because I thought. It means I don't deserve to be at college and uh and you feel like you're look for therapy at one stage. You're very honest with yourself and you say I it was all getting away from me, right? And you actually turn to therapy which Feels slightly taboo in your family, right? It is

There is stigma around mental health. Conversations And I was even offered mental health support at the QE hospital in the UK when I was receiving my surgeries but I refuse to get that because for me recovery was all about the medication and the treatment and it was all about the the physical recovery. Bye. And I I wish I had received the therapy sooner.

because like all the the flashbacks of the Taliban attack were triggered by this incident at college and after that, you know, I I had like terrible sleep and I had anxiety and when I s when I finally started seeing a therapist she told me that I had PTSD. Yeah. Yeah. But is there I guess what I'm trying to get to, is there a bit of you that is like Sick of being the brand Malala, that you actually just want to live your own life, work with your advocacy.

Talk to the people that you think you can reach and not be part of whatever brand has been created around you now. I think what is interesting is that the brand that is being created sometimes is so external that you know, you may not have much control over what people say about you or what they expect from you and you know, somehow then I have also s like internalized that. I thought that as an activist I was not supposed to have friends. I was not supposed to have

love in my life. And that's why as a as a, you know, little girl in Pakistan I did not want to get married and I I had seen how marriage had taken away the dreams of so many girls and many girls were married off when they were still children. But at the same time I thought, okay, like no no love life I cannot be that old self that I was because I'm supposed to be an activist and I'm supposed to be living a serious life. But I knew that I was not being true to myself.

if I continue that. So what I have tried to do is that just stay true to myself and then you know, if people accept that as you, it's up to them. Uh but but it's important that I follow my my gut and that is to advocate for girls around the world who do not have access to education. But at the same time like send this message that you know we are not

all so perfect that we have answers to everything. I know a lot about my rights and all of these things, but e even when I myself was thinking what the decision to get married, I could not navigate it easily.

There there was a lot of agony in the book about m reaching that decision. I know. Too many chapters on that. Too many chapters on shall I will how will I know? If I ask these questions, will I get the relevant answers? Let me just go back to the mental health bit of it, because I thought it was really interesting, one of the

very graphic and disturbing passages you described, which is when you were in South Africa and you were about to have a beach holiday in Cape Town. And it was about the Taliban taking back over in Afghanistan, which was a trigger for a mechanism. Here you have been doing this advocacy work and you are making progress and reading about y the school that you've created in Shangla and Pakistan is amazing. In Afghanistan, it has all gone backwards. The sense of despair must be profound about that.

The Taliban took control of Afghanistan the same week when I was receiving my last surgery to recover my facial nerve that was hit by the Taliban bullet. And I was reflecting on how it has taken me so much time and so many surgeries to recover from one Taliban bullet. I could not imagine the pain

that the Afghan women and girls have suffered and that they had a dark future ahead of them. At the time I was just thinking about helping the Afghan activists in their evacuation and thinking about the future of girls' education there. and the fear, the anger that Afghan women had, that I had

turned out to be true because the Taliban have banned girls from education. It has been more than four and a half years. Girls have not been allowed to go to school beyond grade six. Women are banned from work. This is like a nightmare situation for Afghan women. Like their dreams, everything is taken away from them and

In this time I just think about the incredible Afghan activists who are not losing hope, who are doing everything they can to help girls learn through underground or online schools. And I had a conversation with some Afghan girls who are part of this.

secret school they were telling me that they are determined to keep learning and one girl said that even reading a book alone in her room is an act of resistance against the Taliban for her. But Malala you are you know, you are kind of fated by Western leaders

because of your incredible story. But do you think there's been a betrayal there? I mean, you know, the the deal that Trump first signed and then that Biden implemented and the chaotic pull out which just meant that the country fell apart and, you know, twenty years of progress. was kind of thrown backwards. I think it there was a a bigger question about the commitment of the Western countries to gender equality and the protection of women's rights.

Because we know that narrative has been used in the past to intervene. But like this time the whole country of Afghanistan was handed over to the Taliban. They were brought to the mainstream and women were deliberately excluded from those conversations. Women's rights had been taken away from the agenda. And this has been the reality for the past many years.

It just makes you question about the so called commitment to feminist foreign policy or to protecting women's rights. You don't mean question, you mean you don't think it exists really. Yeah, I mean if you don't stand by it then words become meaningless. I don't know why we still have to defend the right to education for girls. Um, why is it becoming a crime for an Afghan girl to be a in a classroom? But internationally it's not yet a crime for

the Taliban to be imposing all of these restrictions, I think that is a bigger crime what they're doing. And they need to be held accountable for that. You know, Afghan women activists are advocating for what's happening in Afghanistan to be recognized as a gender apartheid. They're pushing countries to put more pressure on the Taliban. Like do not normalize conversations with them.

But do we? I mean, do we normalise conversations with the television? Many countries are. Many countries are. They're opening their embassies, they are meeting them, they're inviting them to big gatherings. And the issue of women's rights is put aside as if

It's not even important. And and here's the problem, like Afghan women and girls are not even counted as the people of Afghanistan. Tell us what's going on there now. Women are restricted from work, from education, they are beaten up, they are abused, they are even put in prisons if they disobey any of the Taliban oppressive rules like a woman cannot be seen through the window of her house or her voice cannot be louder.

and really severe restrictions but like f what matters to me is the right to education for girls and Afghan girls have not seen their classrooms for four and a half years. So they do not believe that girls should be getting their education and if you were a young Afghan girl now, knowing uh how the climate has changed, obviously in Afghanistan in the UK to some degree, in America as well. Would you be saying get out of there and try and

migrate here. Would you say w whatever means you can you should get out of there and Come to the UK or come to America. Of course there are many Afghan women activists who uh have been threatened and we Malala Fan have helped them in their evacuation. There are still so many activists who need support because the Taliban are threatening them. They have to remain in secret.

But I think the bigger challenge is that, you know, it's threatening the future of every Afghan girl and every Afghan woman and Of course we need to make sure that we open our borders, we provide them more support, but that is not a long term solution.

what leaders need to do is that they need to help those who are at risk immediately but they also need to prioritize the women's rights conversation of Afghanistan and put this on top of their agenda. They need to make sure that In the rooms where decisions about Afghanistan's future are made, the Afghan women are present, and that girls' education and women's rights become a non-negotiable condition with the Taliban. And we'll have more from Malala in just a moment. UK underrated.

News here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American Week is next. Reporting from the heart. New LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation.

The news agents. Do you think that we are Going backwards. in our recognition of women's right.'Cause I remember, you know, Hillary Clinton, when she went to Beijing, she made that famous speech in ninety I wanna say, ninety four, maybe, and the line she used were Women's rights are human rights. I mean do you think do you think that's gone now? Do you think we're going backwards?

I think this reality that in twenty twenty five girls are banned from school, yes, I do feel we're going backwards because I thought that we would be making progress for girls' education. We'll be seeing girls in every country getting access to education. But to see this reversal, yes, of course it is concerning. But it's also a reminder that maybe the commitments that we have so far heard or the spoken words

are actually not translating into action. So it's important for us to question our leaders. At the same time I think about the Muslim countries as well. What the Taliban are doing They are misusing and exploiting the name of Islam to justify their action. they call themselves as the so called ambassadors of an Islamic country, but

There are a dozens of Muslim countries and none of them are banning girls from their education. So I do hope that more Muslim leaders and more Muslim countries will step forward and challenge the Taliban. Like we need more scholars to come out. and say that what the Taliban are doing is actually un Islamic.

Which are the Muslim countries that you admire most? I mean at the moment, who are the Muslim leaders that you say, Yeah, you're doing you're doing really good work here, get out there and talk to the I think in this moment I do not want to admire any country, Western country or Muslim country because

they have a lot more on their shoulders and I want every country to do more. Okay, let me phrase the question slightly differently then. What about in Pakistan where you've obviously set up your school and you know and the book is you know full of

Uh of course there's progress being made in Pakistan. Uh we have seen this in the decades long work, but still in Pakistan more than twelve million girls do not have access to education. So I think about the girls in villages, in rural areas, in the disadvantaged communities who are left behind, there are not enough secondary schools for them, or the quality of teaching is not good, or there are cultural issues that still do not believe that girls should be in school

In Pakistan we are supporting education activists. We have donated more than fifteen million dollars to support projects there and we even started a school in my parents' village, which is very, very close to my heart because there was no high school at the time for girls. And the first class of girls graduated this year. So it is like truly remarkable and a big thing in that community. Could there be more schools like that?

I believe it because we built a school in the most difficult part of Pakistan. It's up in the mountains, in it's a very disadvantaged area. And I believe w if we can make it happen there, it is possible for us to have state of the art schools in every part of the country. And I'm optimistic because when I look at the work of activists, whether that is activists in Pakistan or activists in Afghanistan or around the world, I believe that there is

hope for change. My whole model of work through Malala Fund is to give grants to local education activists. Because this is how my dad and I started our activism. We were local activists. So supporting the local people who understand the problems

the best and who also know the solutions best. We need to become their allies and their supporters. You talk in the book uh well you've just spoken about your parents Does your mum like the book? I'm asking that I'm asking that because you talk about your mum a lot and you know a lot of people.

daughters have difficult relationships with their mums and that's not unique. But I mean, you know, y your mum was very traditional and very worried about anything that might kind of, you know, impinge upon the sort of cultural values that she grew up with. And even down to apparently kind of choosing what clothes you're going to wear. Yes. What the bedlinen is.

Is that still going on? Yes. Wow. So hang on, so so y did your mum choose what we're written for her? Uh she o she always has something to say, yes, about the clothes I wear. And to be honest, now that I have written a whole book about it My mom is feeling less guilty. She's like, Now you have told the world already so what's you know, what's the point of

hiding it. So she's very she's very water off a ducks back then. Yeah. Literally did nothing. Exactly. Did nothing. Absolutely nothing. But of course my mom had a very different background when she was growing up as a kid in this village in Pakistan. None of her female friends or cousins could go to school. She herself never received her education. And now when she was living in a new country, She had to adjust to this UK culture, learn a whole new language.

So she has become a student again and she's very determined. She uh was dependent on the rest of us to book an appointment for her, call a cab, but now she can do everything herself. So I really look up to her for her resilience and courage. But she is a very strict mom and we will always have these arguments. I think

for us it's just having a conversation each time. I know that her intention is to protect her daughter, of course, because she has seen terrible things happen to girls in her village when the girls were not following the culture, the girls were not following the tradition. So she has always kept that in mind, but I keep telling her that we need to stay strong and we need to challenge these traditions that are actually

Oppressing us. There's like three hundred and then I think it's your uncle who gets up. And he makes a speech and we're expecting him to say, Wow, Malala and he goes poor woman, she's never gonna get married. Yeah I'm I mean th I paraphrase, but he's been he's he's going on about your injuries instead of your brilliance.

Yes, I think for you know, for one of my uncles it was about how the bullet had changed my facial symmetry and he said that, well, she will never look the same as she was before. you know, I wanted to like vanish in that moment because I felt that suddenly all eyes were on me, like looking at my face. And I had had this insecurity of course. uh that now th you know my left side did not look the same as before. I could not smile openly and laugh out loud as I used to as a kid. But

At the same time it was just a reminder that yes, I will always carry the scars of the Taliban attack. Um and and I you know, I have d learned how I can I can live with it and the most important thing for me was to begin to love myself. and to embrace love that I receive from others. And my husband changed that a lot for me because when I met him, of course I fell in love and he was handsome, but I had just too many questions, including one about how I was insecure about my look.

Then I told myself, if somebody loves you and they show you their love, accept it. You can't be constantly asking yourself, Is it true love? Or do they really, really love me? And I wanted like some guarantee or some proof But I said, I'm gonna trust my eyes. I'm gonna trust what I see. an incredible loving, supportive husband. And Of course I took my time thinking about marriage, but it was all worth it. Right decision.

Virginia Wolfe and Dolly Alderton and Bell Hooks I said, please help me guys. I love it. Because marriage is a big thing. Perfect. Yes. You've covered both ends, I think. So look the the thing I found intimidating thinking I was going to interview you today was that in parts of the book You talk about the really dumb moronic questions that journalists like Emily and me have asked in the past and you and you've rolled your eyes and thought, Oh God.

Here we go. Yeah, okay, roll your eyes when you exit. But there is a question that you you kind of address yourself at the end of the book and answer, which is the the question that you had often been asked, which is If you could have your life again and not have been shot and not have been through what you had been through, would you have chosen that path? And you said you've been repeatedly asked it

And now you answer it in the book. So what is the answer to that question? Yeah, I no longer say that yes, I would have preferred the old life. Um because when I think about how my life has changed since then. I have been able to advocate for girls globally and I have been able to make a difference in my own community. I think about the school that we have built in my parents' village and how it has changed the lives of so many girls and it has given hope to the whole community.

I think about the difference that we're making for girls around the world and how I have met so many amazing people, made friends, found the love of my life and that I am in a place where I can make decisions. For myself, according to my own choice, I I am extremely grateful for it, so I would not take it back for the life that I was supposed to have in Pakistan. Who knows what that would have looked like.

of course I would have had my old friends but also challenges like, you know, navigating my way, making it to university, protecting myself from a marriage and all of these things. So I I am I'm not looking back and I am just so grateful for the difference that we are making right now. Alala, great pleasure to have you. Thank you very much for the time. Thank you so much. So wonderful talking to you.

The News Agents. And on tomorrow's News Agents, we've managed to track down Lewis Goodall. Not easy to do, where we'll have a special question and answer edition, providing that is there isn't any more. Andrew Windsor News Breaking. We'll see you tomorrow. Bye bye. This has been a Global Player original production.