Is there really a plot to oust the PM?

This is a Global Player original podcast. What we heard the Health Secretary say this morning was that he wants to cut waiting lists. But we all know that there's only one waiting list that he really wants to watch. But the Prime Minister is not going to do anything about the toxic culture. This is his responsibility. Just last night his allies accused.

not just the health sectorary, but the home sectorary and even the energy secretary of launching leadership bids. These attacks came from number ten, nowhere else, his toxic number ten. The person responsible for the culture in number ten is his Chief of Staff, Morgan McSweeney. Does the Prime Minister have full confidence in him?

Argan McSweeney, my team and I are absolutely focused on delivering for the country. And let me be clear, of course, Mr Speaker, I'm never authorised to tax on Cabinet members. I appointed them to their post because they're the best people to carry out their jobs. Where has all this talk of attack? briefing plotting come from. In the last twenty-four hours a crisis has grown out that we simply never saw coming. So is he in charge of the Downing Street operation or is someone else?

Is his position stronger or weaker? It certainly looks like the latter. And what is going on? Who is running the country right now? Welcome to the newsagents. The news agents. It's John. It's Emily. And last night we suddenly see reports that Downing Street. is warning off the health secretary West Streeting against mounting a coup that we didn't know he was planning.

That Keir Starmer would fight any leadership challenge, that it would royal the markets if Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves were to stand down. And everybody, get back into line. And it sounded tough. But it also sounded just a tiny bit mad. It sounded completely mad. Where did all this come from? Well it came out of nowhere. I mean it it came we should say that Pippa Cruel from The Guardian, I think, broke the story first of all around seven o'clock.

But I was getting calls a couple of hours later. From people who could not believe the briefing that had gone out From Downing Street that used this very curious phrase, which was about fighting back. And the phrase that kept on being used was we've got our tinfoil hats on. And I remember thinking, that's not the actual phrase. You don't say tin foil hats, you say tin hats.

So clearly the person who had spoken to at least four or five journalists was the same person because they kept on using this slightly odd phrase. And when I asked a Downing Street insider where this defensive line had come from, he said very categorically, not the Prime Minister. He said that Keir Starmer would be horrified by the briefing that had gone out. And the words that they actually used were Keir Starmer is a keep calm and carry on person.

He would not want this to be inflaming a situation that possibly doesn't even exist. So let's just analyse what's going on here. The first question is, is there or is there not a plot that might take place after the budget at the end of November?

that has Westreating, the health secretary, as pretender to the Crown. Westreating vehemently, categorically, denies that. Is there somebody in Downing Street who is either Preemptively trying to end this plot, but is going out on a limb and saying stuff that Keir Starmer hasn't authorized.

Or, you know, more charitably, were they just cornered were they cornered by a lot of journalists asking the same question at the same time and they thought, I've just gotta shut this one down and they did it in a rather combative style, sort of slightly inserting themselves into the stories they did so. So so again, I spoke to someone very senior who's at the centre of the Downing Street operation last night. And I got a message back.

Background. Focus of number ten is on delivering on mandate from election. This is all hypothetical speculation. Pierre won a massive majority and is focused on governing. Would he fight a challenge? Of course. Would any challenge be irresponsible? Yes. But government is focused on delivering on people's priorities and on Wes specifically, brilliant health secretary on key priority for the government. So that was later on in the evening.

When they started to realise that this was going badly, badly wrong. I think, and I've spoken to someone else again this morning. I think that the plan, such as it was, was just to seep a few lines into a columnist. piece for the one of the newspapers for The Guardian or the Times or whatever. Wait, which plan? The Wes plan? No the defense. The Downing Street plan was just back off everybody

Prime Minister is not going anywhere, he's not gonna stand down, the Prime Minister's standing firm. I think they thought they would be able to get that out in a subtle Slightly under the surface, kind of way, below the radar, but just have it out there on the record. And of course if you give a briefing saying, I'm not going anywhere, I'm standing firm, all the plotters back off.

It's gonna be in front page news, and sure enough, it is on the front pages of most of the newspapers this morning. Because if the Prime Minister was trying to make himself look tough by this, It's made him look weak and vulnerable and rather brittle. in the process. So maybe we should spell out what the accusations are. And frankly, you have to take everything with a pinch of salt because there are competing, I guess, egos and competing frameworks that these stories are told in.

There is a proportion of Downing Street that think, frankly, that Morgan McSweeney has got ahead of his skis on this one. Morgan McSweeney is the chief of staff, the man who has been bikist arm aside, who's been very good and very competive in Sorting out who Kirst Arma's enemies are, quite frankly, and getting rid of them.

So there are those now in Downing Street who say, who believe that Morgan Sweeney slightly went off on In other words, thought he was helping the Prime Minister, thought he was doing the right thing by slamming down wares or saying that Kirstamer was ready for a fight, thought he was solidifying his position, but maybe inadvertently just ended up sounding too defensive and slightly ridiculous with a story that nobody even knew about before we got the defensive crouch, right?

But that is where it gets I think to a fundamental question about governing, which is is Morgan McSweeney now more powerful than the Prime Minister? How can it be That Keir Starmer stands up in the commons and says I would never attack any of my cabinet colleagues and we know that his chief of staff was. Either Keir Starmer's in charge or Morgan McSweeney's in charge. And I just think it makes Kirstama look ludicrous. If the line of defence is I didn't say any of this.

Nothing to do with me. And I would never authorise such things. Well, Morgan McSweeney has done it. And remember this is the same thing. The briefings are that he has. identify anybody as being responsible for it. He said, I never name names of people within the operation of number ten Downing Street. So I've got no sourcing that it's Morgan McSweeney. But as you're right to point out, Emily Yeah, exactly. That an awful lot of people are pointing the finger at Morgan McSweeney.

It's worth saying that the resignation of Peter Mandelson Again, it was Morgan McSweeney who was critical of in getting Peter Mandelson to be our ambassador in Washington and was pushing that promotion before and the announcement before the enhanced vetting process had been completed, where they might have come across all these emails. from and between him and Jeffrey Epstein. So it's not the first time that Morgan McSweeney's role

has come under scrutiny with people saying, Hang on, have you got too much power? And so that I guess is a long way of bringing you to where we are this morning. Kenmy Badenok Going for Keir Starmer's jugular, asking if he's going to stand by McSweeney, asking if he has full confidence. in his chief of staff. And listen very carefully, because Starmer Doesn't exactly say that he does. The person responsible for the culture in number 10 is his chief of staff, Morgan McSweeney.

Oh does the Prime Minister have full confidence in him? Absolutely focused on delivering for the country. What he says is he would never brief against his cabinet colleagues. He doesn't say whether McSweeney stays or goes. There's been a later lobby briefing where they have seemed to suggest that Kirstama does have uh confidence in Morgan McSweeney. I would just say that

Kirst Armer had confidence in Peter Mandelson and the next day Peter Mandelson was sacked. So having confidence one day and being out of the job the next day, not impossible. I'm not suggesting that will happen.

But of course, uh as luck would have it, or irony would have it, or as fate would have it, West Streeting was doing the morning round of interviews this morning. And apart from some kind of slightly clunky metaphors that he used He was pretty clear that That there was a toxicity in Downing Street. And it needed to be dealt with. You'll forgive me for asking a about the rumours of a coup. So what is going on?

The the allies of the PM saying that if there's a leadership challenge after the budget, the PM will fight it. So what is there is there a leadership challenge? What's happening?

No, and I think whoever's been briefing this has been watching too much celebrity traitors, and this is just about the worst attack on a Faithful I've seen since Joe Marler was kicked out and banished in the final. Uh it's totally self-defeating uh briefing, not least because it's not true and Uh I don't understand how anyone thinks it's helpful to the Prime Minister either to suggest he's fighting for his job at a time when

Last time I saw him on Monday evenings talk about violence against women and girls and how we tackle it, he's fighting for the country and trying to turn it around from the absolute mess that we enable. So what's your message then to people who have been briefing this? What would you say to them? Um well firstly I'd like to commend them for um at least taking on board the feedback about sexist briefings because we've seen this before, Lucy Powell, Bridget Phillipson, Angela Rayner.

could go round pretty much the entire cabinet table. So at least um they're picking on one of the boys now. But i in all seriousness it doesn't help anyone. It's not true. And I think Uh my frustration actually about the first you know, almost eighteen months we've been in government. There is a good story to tell about the change we're delivering, the promises we're keeping, the difference we're making.

Uh but would your viewers this morning know that we promised two million more appointments in the NHS and delivered five million? Not sure they would. Would they know that we delivered two and a half thousand more GPs in our first year, not a thousand? I am not sure they would. But the the serious point is yes, I'm deliberately trying to make sure that people do actually get to hear the message of what we're doing. boys getting carried away, uh these are things that distract.

from our ability to get across the message of the change we're making, the difference we're making on things that voters actually do. And the net effect of that is you have West Streeting on the television this morning not looking weaker But surely looking stronger, he's saying this is all a terrible distraction. What on earth are people doing to me?

talking about all this process stuff in number ten Downing Street. I wanna be talking about waiting lists. I wanna be talking about extra GP appointments. I wanna be talking about all the other things that, you know, he says he's doing as health secretary. And I don't know whether the aim was to take him down a peg or two or to clip his wings or whichever other metaphor that we're streeting might choose to describe what is going on.

I just don't think it's worked. I think that West Streeting looks like a proper grown up and that some of the people in Downing Street look rather fevered

in what they've done. Something else has happened this morning as well. A few weeks ago when Lucy Powell accepted her award from the I think it was the Spectator Parliamentary Awards, she jokingly, ironically thanked Morgan McSweeney, because Morgan McSweeney was backing her opponent, Bridget Phillipson, and she said it's all thanks to Morgan McSweeney that I've become the deputy leader.

When Wes Streeting acknowledged that Lucy Powell was right, which is what he said in another interview, I think he was also telling us that he felt the briefing was coming from Morgan McSweeney. And what this has inadvertently done is bring many of the sort of Lucy Powell supporters on the left. closer to Wes, who is seen as a Labour figure on the right, on the sort of starmer right. And so I mean I'm sure this wasn't intended twenty four hours ago.

But somehow he has built a broader coalition within Labour than the one that he started with before those briefings went out ahead of him. Yeah, and that was pretty clever because if he's you know, he's seen as the ultimate Blair eye Minister, him and Peter Kyle are seen as the kind of heirs to Blair in the current cabinet setup. We know there are Blairites in the number ten operation.

Uh West Streeting has been able to go out on the media today to say whoever's behind the briefings should be sacked. And by the way, soft left. I'm with you. I like you. And, you know, so I d I I don't know what they've done. So let me be really let's get away all the bubbly stuff, right? And just say As we sit here today, do you think that Keir Starmer's leadership is under attack before the end of the year? From those you've been speaking to, do you think it's under attack?

you know, before Christmas? Do you think it's not under attack at all, or do you think this has just been kicked down the road? I think there is profound disillusionment with his leadership. And I think there is a general view within the Labour Party. Within the Labour Party, within the Cabinet, that he doesn't have the political smarts, the political savvy to turn this around with, you know, either in the pre budget or post budget communication space.

And do I think it will happen post budget? No, because I think it would be, you know, so sudden it would look like total panic.

Do I think there is a moment of vulnerability after the May elections and what happens in the Senate and what happens in Scotland? Absolutely bloody right. But you think not till not before May? I I I I think that it would have to be something astonishing and if Keirstama decides he's gonna fight which is the message from last night then it will be bloody and messy and Labour will be in an even worse position at the end of it and so for that reason I don't think this year

We should say that the rules around challenging the Labour leadership have changed in recent months. For anyone to topple the Prime Minister, they would need the support of twenty per cent of the Parliamentary Labour Party, that's about eighty MPs. I mean, that is still a lot of MPs to support one candidate.

And in a moment Christine Flack, the mother of Caroline Flack, who took her own life after a prosecution which many people think should never have taken place. Matter of UK under rank He's here in Edinburgh. Diamond Marks. Reporting from the heart of your life. Listen on our Or the new LBC app. Leading Britain's conversation. The news agents. Well Christine Flack, thank you so much for being with us. I'm guessing a documentary like this, given all that you've been through,

It's quite a difficult thing to decide to do because it just stirs everything up again. It does, but it was also a chance to get answers. Um, I was getting nowhere really. I knew the things had gone wrong, thing people have acted quite badly. you know the media the things they printed and there was just no comeback. There was no truth then put out. So yes, it was difficult. And I had to ask like my other children, Do you think it's worth it?

that they're gonna get comments. But they agreed, you know, do it. And I'm I'm so pleased I did. Well let's start at the beginning and just ask. What were the questions that you wanted answering? I wanted to know, first of all, why the police were determined to go against the CPS's first decision. You know, they said it wasn't in the public interest.

it wasn't domestic abuse, it was common assault, um, if anything. Um, and they really didn't want to go ahead with it. But for some reason someone that night was determined to get a charge brought against Caroline. And it was the first time that this detective inspector had ever gone against a CPS decision. I was then talking to someone that had worked in the domestic abuse part of the Met. And sh she was working at the time in a different part but

She couldn't understand why they were bringing charges. She was being told to let people off that had even brought a knife to a scene against their partner because it wasn't worth it. We won't get a prosecution. So that first of all. Then also at the inquest, the coroner brought up so many

things that made me start thinking, well, why did that happen? Why didn't that happen? Because she questioned everything that happened. And also just the, you know, the things that were written in the media that people believe. And no matter what you said afterwards.

They were out there. You know, there was this Caroline Flack had beaten her boyfriend with the lamp. They knew that wasn't true. The police knew that wasn't true. And just all these things and this that loved life loved her career was just dismissed as this domestic abuser and I thought, no, I can't you can't let that those lies stand. You can't.

So I I spent yesterday with a a friend, he's a policeman. And he said I said I was gonna be interviewing you today. And he said, Oh no that was a classic NFA and I said, Sorry, I don't even know what that means. He said, No further action. If if if the partner if the partner isn't complaining and doesn't want a prosecution And it's a common assault, we would just put that down as an NFA, no further action required. So why do you think

Caroline was prosecuted. Did you get a satisfactory answer to that? Never, never, because As as your friend would know, if he's been in the police or your relative, scrupulous notes are kept. Notes were not kept as to why this detective inspector wanted to go against the CPS decision. She never met Caroline. I mean, Caroline was in the cell for hours. She'd already been in the hospital for hours having her arms looked at and just her mental state.

And I said at the inquest to the detective inspector, What did you think of Caroline's mental state? What did you She said so I never met her. She never read any of the reports. She said, No, I did it. I caught him with my phone. I did it. So that was the very first thing she said when the police got there, and the coroner brought that up as well in at the inquest. So do you not I don't know why why they brought up

you know, proceeded with a charge. Well, maybe I I I don't know. I'm just trying to figure this out myself as you speak to me. Caroline Flack was guilty of being famous. Yeah, uh um maybe, but don't you hate to think that's the case? Well I I'm just trying yeah, of course. But you know you know, is it is it that they felt that here is Caroline Flag

you know, celebrated, famous, tabloid fodder. God, if we don't do anything against her, people will think oh the justice system and maybe, you know, and people burnish their careers on prosecution. Yeah, yeah. You know, I I d uh whether they were frightened because there's you know, of the domestic abuse situation in this country where so many people get off. They thought, oh, this would be an example. But what it did, it turned it on its head.

prosecuting something like this but still letting and you know, you know it, you're in the news, how many people walk away after assaulting their partner, be it a man or a woman. But Caroline and Lewis didn't even live together. He was gone. He he went. So there was no harm gonna come to him. And she was a forty year old woman and never ever been charged with anything before. There was no history of domestic abuse. So the decision you know, the decision making just didn't ring true to me.

So y you did a previous documentary which looked at uh Caroline's travails with mental illness and, you know, problems of stardom that come with it, and you've decided to come back again at this Do you think that it is possible to change perceptions? Or do you think it's kind of baked in, people have made up their mind now, they've read what they wanted to read and you know, I I I'm just asked that because I I'm I work in the media and I kinda think you know, people are so

set in their opinions these days that it's almost impossible to get anyone to th say, Oh yeah, actually, you know what, I might be wrong about that. I think you've got to look at the people'cause I think the people that write the horrible things online Um the journalists I mean one did it yesterday on her birthday. She wrote about this film. The only one, every other journalist that saw it. Yeah, one move.

and and were sorry. And I had one phone call from a chap from the Daily Mirror that knew her really well and he he just apologised. He said, You probably don't even want to talk to me. And I said, No, I do, because I want you to write the wrong but there was still a woman on the Daily Mail that put something on in her column that was vile. And you know what? That's what stuck in my head. And that's what I think Caroline was reading, the bad bit.

But I think anyone that does that won they won't change their mind. But I think decent people Will change their mind. They will look at it and say, Oh, I was wrong. You know, they that isn't what happened, and we've proved it.

And I'm I'm one of those people. I read a headline and I used to say to Carrie, Oh, fancy them doing that. She Mummy, you don't even know them. How can you say fancy them doing that? You know,'cause they're not like that. She knew them and And usually she'd get over things but this was just too it was she was ashamed, you know, she was ashamed of what they said about her and she was ashamed of herself really having you know, showing herself up and

She wouldn't talk about the reasons why she you know, her mental health and everything. And I don't think she ha should have to. You know, I don't think you should have to bear your soul for people to believe you. So tell me this. You you you talked about how you needed to get buy in from your other children and from your grandchildren as well about whether this was the right thing to do.

If one of your grandkids said, God, I w I want to be in showbiz, I want to be famous, I want to have my name up in lights, would you say don't be so daft? It just brings a whole lot of other problems with it. No, no. But I don't know any of my c grandkids that would. But I still I don't think if you love doing something and Carrie loved it, she loved her job, this shouldn't put anyone off.

What we've got to do is not change, you know, people going into the sort of um show business. We've got to change how the media report stories. There's got to be a comeback if they tell lies. There's got to be. And d do you think you're any closer to that? I mean in the course of this, I know you said you kind of w wanted to get answers from the police.

Did you get any meaningful answers from newspaper editors or gossip columnists or all these people who write the stuff that have so upset you? No. That's a simple answer. But as long as I've got out there what I've got out there. yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna.

I've been a journalist. And you various times you've had the Levison inquiry, you've you know, the phone hacking scandals, you've had all these different things and new codes of conduct that have been introduced and you know, privacy laws and whatever else. Do you think it's changed at all or do you still think that if you're a celebrity, you are there to be papped and no one gives much of a damn about the truth, it's about selling the picture or selling the storyline? I think it's got worse.

I really do. And I think the worst thing that I mean Matt Hancock did quite a lot of things, so it's not the worst thing, but him to stop the second part of the Leverson inquiry. And then Labour to get in. I met Lisa Nandy and she was oh she cried when she heard my story. She you know She's done nothing. We met her as a group of people saying, Look, we need the second part of the Leverson Inquiry. It acted upon. You know, for everybody, not just celebs, for everybody.

And journalists, journalists were with me. You know, that's that's a horrible thing that people think I'm against journalists like yourself. I worked for regional newspaper for thirty years. I know there's good journalists. I know what the standard should be. But I think the same standard should be used in national press as well. So why do you think When you met Lisa Nandy she wasn't interested in a Leverson Part two. I think she was interested. She found it very hard to give us a reason why

they couldn't, you know, act upon it. Well, scared of the press. But Yeah. Yeah, I d I don't think this government I'm so sad about it that they're just as scared of the press as the previous So Christine let me ask you this you've done this two part documentary which is out now on Disney Plus. Do you do you come back to this again? Or do you feel you've sort of achieved what you wanted to and you've made peace?

with yourself over these kind of things that have been burning at you? I don't think I'll I'll do much more. I mean, I was approached by Disney. to do it. I didn't go to them and I feel lucky that Caroline was known enough that they would come to me to say, How are you getting on? And they could open a lot more doors than I could. And I think I've got the answers I needed from this program, especially for the from uh Nazir Avsault, you know, what he said was Really good for me.

Um, so I think that's as far as I can go now. It's out there if people want to believe it. But I am very interested in Hacktoff, the the group. Not to get too involved, but I am interested and I watch You know, if they if they can make a difference it would be lovely. And in terms of the rehabilitation of Caroline I mean what do you want people to know that they didn't know before? that she didn't hit anybody with a lamp. She she wasn't a domestic abuser.

She loved life. She loved her job. But she wasn't able to cope at times. with different things. And I think if she'd been someone different, she may have just got over it. If the CPS hadn't pressed and pressed for her to go to court, she may have got over it. But she wasn't the person that they wrote about in the papers. And I think it was her birthday yesterday and her twins, twin sister. I think...

the amount of love that came through to me from her friends and people that knew her. They already know the truth, but I just want it wide more widely said. And just for one newspaper to say, Do you know we got it wrong? Yeah. Well Christine Fleck, you might have to wait quite some time for that. But thank you very much indeed for being with us.

The news agents. Are you going ahead and suing the BBC? Well, I guess I have to. You know, why not? Because uh they they defrauded the public and they've admitted it. And their top echelon. Director General and the CEO of both B. This is our supposedly a great ally. B B C have the government has a chunk of that one I guess. But

Uh, that's a pretty sad event. They actually changed my January sixth speech, which was a beautiful speech, which was a very calming speech, and they made it sound radical. And they actually changed it. What they did was rather incredible. They're showing me the results later on, the results of what they did, how they butchered it up. But it was very dishonest and the headman quoted.

What happens, what the BBC's response is, is still awaited. But it is a devil of a decision for the corporation on whether to fight or whether to give in. Because either way, it's gonna attract huge amounts of criticism. On the newsagents USA, we're gonna be discussing How America is viewing this right now and what it means in the context of all the other media organizations that Trump has gone after. Bye bye. Bye for now. This has been a Global Player Original Production.