Is Labour ready to reopen the Brexit debate?

This is a Global Player original podcast. Mr. Speaker, does the Prime Minister believe? The person at the top should resign. That is Kemi Badenock talking about the Treasury and the person at the top being the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, on whether she should resign. She's been accused of misleading the public, politicians, and even one or two of her own cabinet ministers have said they were misled. But today we hear from one

The Justice Secretary, David Lamy, with a very clear message to those cabinet colleagues. Stop it. It doesn't help the business of getting on with governing. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n to getting on with the business and serving the people of this country. So I can't stand it.

I don't do it myself and it's deeply counterproductive. In exclusive interview today, David Lamy talks to us about his plans for jury trial, about the state of his party, the state of the government. And what's gone wrong? Welcome to the news agents. The News Agents. It's John. It's Emily. And today the news agents decamped to the offices of the Justice Secretary overlooking St James's Park, all rather spectacular.

To sit down and talk to him not just about his plans for reforming the justice system. But also going much wider than that. Yeah, David Lamy's woken up this morning to find himself accused of making a massive mistake, not just by the opposition, but by Labour MPs and by peers after announcing those radical plans to cut thousands of jury trials.

We wanted to ask him about that and whether he's sure he's gonna get that pushed through his party. We wanted to talk to him about wider prison reform. There are two prisoners released by mistake. Still on the run as we record, but we also talked to him about the state of his party, the state of government. And we ask whether there is the beginning of an inkling that wants to throw out the changes Brexit made. Is that where the Labour Party and the government is taking us next?

David Lamy, lots of your colleagues, lots of Labour MPs and peers have come out today to express fear about the changes that you are trying. to make to the jury system. Do you welcome a debate on this or is your mind made up? Are you gonna push this through? We've got to push this through. There are complexities to it, so I just want to sort of step back. All Labour colleagues and lots of the country truly understand that austerity was real. They see it in their National Health Service.

Mae'n ei wneud yn ei wneud. Mae'n ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud. They're not in our courts every day. Um they're certainly not in our prisons on the whole, but let me be absolutely clear. It's in the criminal justice system that the h the hidden bit of the system, that austerity was at its most kind of grip. I think Rory Stewart wrote a book about coming into the Justice Department and sort of seeing all of this writ large, and that's how I feel. And so reform here and investment.

is number one. If you believe in the jury system, this is in fact about preserving a cornerstone of our democratic kind of settlement where you can be judged by your peers. But there's there's sort of something else that sits alongside that, which is at the same time as we've we've got to respond to this huge backlog of cases. I remember when I was studying A-level English and reading Bleak How.

about a fame John Dyson John went on and on and never ended. We we cannot go back to that era. And if I do nothing, if I just sit here and do nothing and have an easy time the backlog will be a hundred thousand uh So let's talk about that backlog. You've got eighty thousand cases. If you make the changes you need, what will the backlog look like in eighteen months time? Will it be halved? Will it be gone?

What's the ambition? Uh it probably won't in eighteen months time. I've set myself that the backlog is reducing by the next general election. We've asked That's not very ambitious, is it? Well uh well that's why I was ta taking some time to explain the the extent of the problem, because the second thing that's happened, which is relevant here, police are now arresting more because there are more of them of them. Um technology has massively changed the experience of criminal trials, DNA evidence.

AI will make a contribution. Um forensics is massive. Uh we ask people to sit on serious fraud cases that can go on for months. Let's be clear also, jury you get sixty five quid a day if you're on a jury. Okay, but jury cases only account for three percent of the trials. So if you take the jury's Out.

How big an impact is that actually gonna have on a backlog of eighty thousand?'Cause it doesn't sound like it's going to be significant. All this change, all this reform, all this kind of freaking people out for something that is not going to noticeably impact that backlog. In simple terms.

90% of cases dealt with by the magistrates. We're going to be asking magistrates to do a higher percentage, if you like. ac yn ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n mynd. Again, lay people, ordinary people, doing more work, taking more of those cases. But you can't say in a year's time we're gonna get the backlog down from eighty thousand to

fifty thousand or sixty thousand. You you can't do that, right? I can't say that because of course this requires legislation. That legislation is introduced next next spring. It's got to pass through the commons, then pass through the laws.

then become enacted at some point in twenty twenty six, twenty seven, and that's why we're getting to the next general election. But as I say, you you've got you've got the the magistrates court taking more Then you've got up to three years, so from eighteen months to three years, this new division of the Crown Court with a single judge. Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

Rydyn ni'n gweithio cymdeithasol. Rydyn ni'n gweithio cymdeithasol. Rydyn ni'n gweithio cymdeithasol. Rydyn ni'n gweithio cymdeithasol. Rydyn ni'n gweithio cymdeithasol. Rydyn ni'n gweithio cymdeithasol, mae'n gweithio cymdeithasol. Again, that case is holding up the rape case, the murder case. So now that that group of cases will go to the single judge. That's how you get the speed. Brian Levison, when he looked at this,

said probably about a twenty percent gain, it could be more. So that's why we're doing it. So if you go to a court and I've done some court reporting and you see the people that are in the horsehair wigs, the barristers

They all seem to be sort of one colour from one background, whereas the juries look diverse from all sorts of backgrounds. Aren't you concentrating justice in the hands of a very few unrepresentative people who do not possibly empathize represent the people that are before them who are the defendants. That's why it's important that you do have jurors in the more serious cases. The question is. Is that threshold at one year or is it at three years?

One. And two, remembering that our magistrates are more diverse. In London thirty one percent of our magistrates, for example, come from an ethnic minority background. Isn't there an enormous dearth of magistrates? Well we're going to be increasing the amount of magistrates. They do want to be magistrates.

Mae'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'. But people do want to be magistrates and their magistrates are increasingly more diverse, which is good. And they'll be taking on more.

The single judge, the irony here is that I looked at this for David Cameron and Michael Gove, for the Lamy review, who are our judiciary, is there bias, those sorts of questions. I recommend do training, which they're now actually doing. I did make recommendations for diversity. Our judiciary have got more diverse, certainly many, many more women than there were before, and more ethnic minorities. We need more to do, but there are So I think taken as a whole

For this group of cases, this smaller group of cases that they're now gonna do, this is the right thing to do to keep the system standing up, understanding that there is also a demand problem. There are also more cases. on top of austerity. So we have to do something. And you might say we would have had to do have done something. And you know, if the world were very different and criminal justice had been invested in over the last

14 years we might be in a different place, but we just aren't in that place. And one of the things I said, which you will recall when I was Foreign Secretary, is that I was going to be a progressive realist. I was gonna meet the world as it is, not as I would wish it to be. And I brought that into this department. We've got to We've got to recognise austerity has happened. We have got this huge backlog. A woman should not be waiting three, four years for a rape case to come on. We should not

Sixty percent should not be dropping out. That is unacceptable and we can do something else. Right diagnosis, wrong solution. That's what you're being told though. Of course everyone can see the diagnosis that that's the wrong solution. Well uh I remember and you Well Helena Kennedy. I mean, you know, one of your own. Uh you will remember Then you just pulled a facial expression. When Emily said I assume that's a dear friend of mine, she's do but I will remember When senior consultants

Said to the Tony Blair government, you cannot introduce targets for how long there are cancer weights and AE weights. We govern when operations happen. And who would suggest that now?

So you talked about doing the review for Michael Gove and David Cameron and looking at this whole area. You know, your m tweet of a few years ago of from twenty twenty has been replayed and replayed and replayed. Robert Jenrik has called you a hypocrite. He's right, isn't he? You've changed your mind on it. I haven't changed my mind on jury trials. As uh as I say, there's this sort of Robert Jenrick is a and he you know, perhaps his he sees his job as to put out their disinformation

In order to run his argument, he one has to give the impression that we're in the United States and everybody in the country gets a trial. And of course, ninety percent of people don't, because ninety percent of cases go to the magistrates. Mae'n rhaid i wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'

It is. And that's still the case. But let's let's remember when I was tweeting that back in 2020, the backlog was sitting at about forty, forty-two thousand. Today it's doubled, and if we do nothing, it will double again. So either you sit there and do nothing and you're really purist and precious and you say, Just pour money and that'll fix the problem and it won't. Sir Brian has made that really clear and I am really clear. Money will not just fix this problem.

Or you get serious about reform. That's my job. That's my job. And if Robert Gemric were here and doing his job properly, I just wan I just suppose I want to go back to Emily's question about what's this gonna do to the backlog, the waiting list to ge to get a trial. It seems to me an awful lot of pain. for very little gain. In the sense that you're saying, well maybe we'll start to see a fall in the number of people waiting for trials by jury by the end of this parliament. I mean phew.

I know that we're living in a world that moves fast and people want pace, I want pace, but let's just let's just for a second you've got my intray and why this is gonna take some time.

Justice has been chronically underinvested in and our we have courts, but what it's not just about our judiciary, this is also about our barristers. How keen are our young lawyers to become criminal aid lawyers at the moment. I'm telling you now, not very keen. They choose to go to every other area of law other than criminal legal because it's not been funded properly and actually criminal legal aid barristers and solicitors

uh earning less often than than teachers or nurses. One of the things I introduced today, um yesterday was a a government backed pupillage scheme funding that next generation of criminal lawyers to come into the pipeline, I've also taken up fees. for criminal aid barristers'cause we were losing barristers in this area. Again, that pipeline takes some time.

This has been long overdue and I'm I'm the first person to do it in years. You need the barristers, you need the solicitors if you're going to make the system work. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r amser. prisons have been chronically underinvested in. Okay. So so the truth is I wish that I could, you know, click my fingers and make this happen tomorrow.

But in this system, in this ecology, no different to an operation. An operation doesn't just happen because the consultant's there, the whole thing's got to come together.

I've got to fund all these bits and reform bits to make it work properly. And you've talked a lot about austerity and you've talked a lot about underinvestment, but this now rests with you as you're all too aware. People look at the justice system now, they see the stories of Early release, they see the stories of prisoners being released by mistake. Twelve this past month, I think it's ninety in the past eight months, and it seems utterly shambolic. This is now on your watch.

Will ending juries help address any of that? Uh no, ju juries will not address that particular problem. So let's step back from that problem. That's I mean we've got two on the run today as we speak and we don't know where they are or what they did or whether they're a danger. The prison system releases fifty seven thousand prisoners.

every year. Um it's a paper based system where prison officers make the r the appropriate decision as to b when someone's come to a release date. Um There have always been, um, throughout all of our lifetime, prisoners who have been released. inappropriate. Prisoners on the run. A day or two um um uh you know or a week or two. There be there th th there have always been errors in releases. But

There has been a spike over the last four to five years. And the reason there's been a spike is because we have a prison capacity crisis. The last government introduced four different pieces of legislation governing when you could be released. Rydyn ni wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i

uh to deal with that prison crisis. So the complexity of the system uh for the courts and for the prison, determining who should be released on what date there's about five hundred pages of stuff to wade through. Felly mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r

So the officers that we have doing this work are actually quite junior. Okay, so so just to bring in Charlie Taylor, you you know him well, the prisons inspector, says this is what happens when you revoke visas of prison guards, mainly West African prison guards. Will you be making it easier for prison guards from West Africa to work in the UK? Is that something that is now top of your agenda? Will you change visa rules?

I don't think that particular bit of policy is is governing this, but I'm very grateful for those officers that came largely from Nigeria, Ghana. into our country. But you've just heard from the prisons inspector Charlie Taylor who says this is a major factor in the mistaken release of prisoners. I'm working with the Home Secretary on that.

I think we're gonna get there on what we need to do to ensure that we don't suddenly lose um thousands of officers. But particularly on really changing visa or things. effects releases an error. We have a paper-based system and it needs to be a digital system. I am t bringing in a digital sort of crack squad to work with prisons, but the investment needed is a lot and will take time and run. I mean sorry, you sort of flew past that one. We've still got two prisoners.

On the loose today, we don't know where they are. We don't know Uh Emily, nearly every week there are prisoners that are released in error. That has been the case for most of our lifetime. The numbers have gone up, but the number relative to the fifty seven thousand is actually quite small even though there's been a spike. Um Okay. News here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American Week is next. Reporting from the Heart. Listen on our free

Player app or the new LBC app. LBC, leading Britain's conversation.

The news agents. We had the guy who had been in the Bell Hotel and who gets mistakenly released, and you are christened Calamity Lammy. It felt like it had become a joke, the government had become a joke at that stage. You've explained the background. What does it feel like as the politician to be called Calamity Lamy?

by the mail. I mean I I mean I uh by by my political opponents. I mean I I you can't Uh I don't think you can be in the business of po politics if you uh haven't acquired broad shoulders. I've been in politics twenty five years. I understand that the job is getting on and doing the best job that I can and gripping the system the best I can and working with civil servants and others.

um to do the best job they can. And and in this area the truth is our prison officers are fantastic people working in a a system Lynn Owens, who used to lead the National Crime Agency, to look at this for me in detail. She'll report in the spring and we'll act on that. So you have to get on with it. Okay. So David, you talked about the fact that you've been a politician.

for twenty five years. Arguably what's happened in the prison service. Is a sort of perfect metaphor for the way a lot of people see Britain today, that things are falling apart, that nothing is working, that someone who was a prime target to be imprisoned is let out, all the rest of it. Have you ever known a time where there has been such disillusionment and the squandering of goodwill of this government since you were elected last July where people feel really let down?

So let's just step back in strongly political way. So this is my second time back in government. in a period of growth, in a period of investment in public services, in a much more optimistic period in Britain. As a politician, and this is I'm trying not to be partisan the fourteen years of the Conservatives, particularly that last period under Boris and Liz Truss, and was was terribly squandered. It was terribly it's it left us in a really, really bad place as a country.

And being a progressive in office. in this environment is tough. But it's not just tough in the in the in the UK. Let's look around the world. Uh Canadian colleagues, progressive, were finding it tough. They were way behind in the polls. Norwegian colleagues were finding it tough, way behind in the polls. Australia was finding it tough, way behind in the polls.

All in a midterm stage where everyone said, get these guys out, can't stand, they're not fixing the problem of the populace. Why are they in office? And midterm, it felt shit. That's the truth of it. But you then get to the election, people start to see some results. The cost of living being the number one thing, and guess what? All those progressives coming back.

So it's not a good thing. But what about the mistakes you're making as a government? All governments make mistakes. But the lead up to the budget. the briefing over whether Keir Starmer was facing a challenge and what West Streeting was up to. Wasn't that absolutely clumsy and idiotic? All governments make mistakes, some of them are self inflicted, some of them like the what we've been talking about prisons.

is the consequences of being in government and then you have to act in response to Some of them are self inflicted. What was self inflicted in the last month? Do you accept that the lead up to the budget was an utter fiasco? I look, I I have been really disappointed with some of the leaks that we've experienced in government. I uh government feels very leaky. Um and indeed my jury Decision.

um and the determinations that we're making collectively were leaked. That that's not government working at its best. But the leaks over the budget seem to come from the Chancellor herself. Like it I remember when I was first in government people would say, Are you Blair, are you Brown? Okay, so just to clarify, w w we were you one of those who felt let down by the Chancellor. We we've been hearing in the press of cabinet colleagues who felt let down by the Chancellor. Not even vaguely.

Tot Tottenham. So what's your message to colleagues who've been telling the press that they are feeling let down? Emily. Tottenham yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r My constituents They want, they they need help with their energy bill. They need those free prescriptions. I'm delighted with this budget as tough as the biggest thing. You know, we were led up the garden path, we went out and paved the way for income s tax rises that never happened. We feel

We feel let down, we feel lied to. That's a cabinet minister. Cabinet ministers have been quoted as saying that. Some of the briefing out and I it's not my style. You guys know that. You've known me for a very long time. What would you say to your colleagues? Stop it. It doesn't help it doesn't help the business of getting on with governing. to getting on with the business and serving the people of this country. So I can't stand it. I don't do it myself.

Yeah. It was very noticeable that on Monday night the Prime Minister made specific reference to Brexit. He said that leaving the EU had damaged the economy and it was an utterly reckless template for foreign policy. Would you be encouraging your government to go further the EU, even if it meant rejoining a single market or a customs union. Is that what Labour should be talking about now? It's self evident that leaving the European Union badly damaged our economy.

took us out of an important marketplace and created serious friction. that untruths were being peddled. by those that thought exiting the European Union would be a good thing. And it's why every single day that I was Foreign Secretary I returned to the s to the subject of our relationship with the European Union. uh I was keen to get back to the foreign policy forum with other foreign ministers. I worked so hard on that first summit.

Our future is inextricably linked to the European Union uh and part of a customs union. And and we should be working deliberately over time.

to be closer. That's my view. And that has not seen it. Okay, so what does that mean? Because you know, we're already we're already working pretty much towards the European social model, you know, workers' rights, all the rest of it. And yet Your party is terrified to say what many people in the country are kind of waiting to hear you say, including, you know, commentators on the right like Danny Finkelstein, which is Labour's next move.

should be to get rid of Brexit? I don't think the party was terrified to say it. I think the I think that the party and Keir Starmer was in a place where the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting another different result and the and Europe had become such a toxic issue that it was important that we got on with public services and other things. But the damage to our economy is real, and pragmatically, it is certainly my belief.

And what I was working for as Foreign Secretary was fixing like our uh SPS deal, like youth mobility, fixing things that would assist with the money. Would you like to see us in a customs union or a single market? Journey of travel to me is self evident. So the the question customs union? That is not currently uh Would you welcome it uh uh our policy. That's not currently where we are. But should it be but you can see countries like Turkey with a customs union.

sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n Do you think that that could be part of a manifesto commitment at the next election? Looking at the example you've just cited very approvingly of what Turkey has of being part of some customs union.

Um as you know that that would be subject to collective responsibility. You're the deputy prime minister. What do you what do you think that would be big headlines for the news agents, which I'm not gonna do, John. But I totally respect you for

For pushing me and trying to get me to do it. Can I just ask you another question which is related to I mean Deputy Prime Minister and former Foreign Secretary, of what's unfolding in Moscow now where the talks seem to have hit the buffers? The American negotiating side is a property developer and the president's son in law. I mean it's not the Foreign Secretary, it's not the national security. It's not the Secretary of State, it's not the what do you make of it?

Uh well from from my experience working closely with Secretary of State Rubio and um Vice President Vance, they are very engaged at the critical moments and all presidents and sometimes prime ministers actually have envoys that they charge with getting on and doing the work. On the substance um I am pleased that we have a US President attempting to get progress and attempting to bring about peace and the end of this war, but I am sceptical.

that um Putin was ever going to come to the table seriously and my judgment is that in order for him to do that, it's maximum pressure strategy. Uh that is largely where uh Europe has been. I'm pleased that America recognised with um changes to their position Is it helpful to have Steve Whitkoff in the room? It's pressure. It's pressure that will get them there. So I'm not surprised that Putin is yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw Just a final thought.

We're both Tottenham Hotspur supporters. Yes, we are. Who's going to last longer? Thomas Frank or Keir Starmer? Ha ha ha. Kiss Darmer. Kiss Starmer. So you don't rate Thom Thomas Frank's chances much? Uh Uh I actually I hope that Frank is there and I spoke to the new leadership at S at Spurs. And frankly, supporting Spurs and supporting the Labour Party have similarities. We don't win i enough. Uh we don't win enough. But the new the new team at Spurs

are in the longevity business and they actually want to replicate some of what they've seen at Arsenal. David, sorry to kill the VIP, which was a brilliant vibe, but

That is the point, isn't it? That Labour has won enough. It has won big. It has won this extraordinary majority. You have You have you had the chance to do something really incredible and bold and revolutionary. And a lot of the disillusionment that we sort of feel now is possibly coming from a sense that you've squandered that. I wonder if we want to answer that question really seriously. Um the Labour Party in power in the twentieth century was in power for twenty-two, twenty-three years.

I think we're gonna get a lot more in the twenty first century, but the truth is empirically. the natural party that the British people tend to choose to be. I I get that in terms of the number of times you've won. But when you do win, when you win with a majority that means isn't the onus on you to be bold. Let me give you an account in terms of the last election.

We were obviously out of power for fourteen years. My own judgment is that for four to five of those fourteen ye of those fourteen years we squandered it with the Corbyn experiment. Then we had uh COVID, which also messed things up. the election was called early. The first part of governing, I don't think some of the management of that was as good as it needed to be. Whose fault was that? Uh

I it's not about blame. I take as much responsibility as others actually. All of us take have to take responsibility for that. The election came early and sometimes governments struggle with the leaves of power. You then talk about our big majority. It feels big, but there are tens of constituency where the majority is actually tiny. And where we have to acknowledge also

that reform and the Conservatives on numbers makes that majority feel large tangibly in our one past the post system. But actually I think it's a much smaller majority than that than that. So in truth So I don't wanna go I mean I I'm I'm a little bit more cautious than some colleagues would be about the work we've got to do to continue to win the trust of the British people and demonstrate tangible results.

But I'm still pretty confident, I am, that by the next general election growth is going to be important, cost of living in the end will be the key the key issues. And I still believe that there is a progressive There's a progressive um group of folk in our country, some of whom would vote for the Conservatives if they were more moderate actually, but also those who might vote Green, who might vote Liberal Democrat,

Who can come back to the Labour Party and we can form the next government? That's still my belief. but of course the next Two and a half. three years. will be significant to w to keep those votes on our side at the point at which they focus on a general election. And that's what we learn where progressive win a second term in countries like Norway, Canada, Australia. Can we do it? Yes, we can. It's in our hands. David Lamy, thank you very much indeed.

The news agents. So he seemed very relaxed about being called uh Calamity Lamy. I don't know whether that name will stick.

We didn't go into Lamy Dodger. If you didn't go into Lamy Dodger, which was generic for rather weak one, uh, I know it did. Really not a great joke. I thought he was interesting on the European Union. I think that he clearly eyes light up at the prospect of customs union, talks very approvingly of what's happening with Turkey and the way they are kind of doing in a customs union with the European Union as if that might be a model.

He didn't he wasn't going to give the headline we should rejoin the customs union. But you just felt everything about his body language said Oh yes please. Yeah, I agree. I think the question about why the party hasn't been braver, why hasn't taken this opportunity when it's got such a big majority and the country's kind of waited so long for change, was still left, frankly, unanswered. And I'm sorry to bang on about this, but

As he himself told us, Labour don't get into power very often. And therefore it sort of feels even more incumbent upon them to do something big and radical. And I don't mean by radical I don't mean like you know, crazy communist or to one side, I just mean a proper overhaul of something that doesn't work. They keep diagnosing the things that don't work.

And yet because of the structure of their own party, they still feel like they're carrying them in bars. Yeah, exactly. But y you know, you go back to where we started the interview with him, which is about the change to the jury system. Yeah. Which people are saying, Oh my God, this is too radical, this is going too far, too fast And when you say And when you say to him, how much will it cut the backlog?

He says it will start to cut the backlog at the next general election. So it's just gonna steady it over the next three years. And you think, wow, what a big fight to be having for so little progress. But maybe that's the point. You know, maybe his point is I mean this will be a test in a way. Can you get through something like this through your party even though they don't really want it to happen?

And that's it from us for today on the NewsAgents USA. We'll talk about a sex scandal that's kind of Almost getting as big as the Monica Lewinsky Bill Clinton Bruhaha will be explaining what it is, the characters involved and the intrigue. That is on NewsAgents USA, which we're recording right now. See you then. Bye bye. Bye for now. This has been a Global Player original production.