Is Labour calling Nigel Farage racist?

This is a Global Player original podcast. The single greatest threat to our way of life and to the living standards of working people is the agenda of Nigel Farage and the Reform Party. Rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r rwy'r

That is Rachel Reeves in her keynote speech defining herself by what Labour is not. They are not reform and they are finally taking aim at the insurgent Nigel Farage. Over the last 24 hours. we have seen a gear shift in how Labour are talking about their opponents. They know who they're against, but do we know who they're for? Welcome to the newsagents. The news agents. It's John. party conference and if it's Monday lunchtime.

Mae'n ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. Whilst at the same time saying, God there are some bloody difficult decisions ahead. This is a a conference, this is a party which has come to Liverpool. I think desperate for some answers about where the party's been and where the party's going.

Or definition, political definition from both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, and just a sense of diagnosis as to how it can be that this is a party which is only 15 months into government, and yet somehow, John, I don't know how if how how you think what you think about

this it almost feels when you're talking to people when you're talking to MPs when you're talking to ministers to spads and so on it almost feels as if they're in a sort of year nine or or year ten of a government and they've almost as if they've got an election which is sort of six months away on the horizon.

In the near future, that they feel like they're definitely going to lose, as opposed to still being a pretty freshly minted government with three and a half, four years of the mandate still to run. That is to me the sort of conundrum of this conference. And I think it's actually basically the question.

that so many people who have come, the delegates and the MPs are also are basically all running through their minds and are looking for a sense of answer to, solution to, from Rachel Reeves and from Keir Starmer. So Reeves attempt to do that today. And look I thought there was some great stuff in his speech.

I thought the attack section that we heard at the top there on reform was powerful. I think there were some great sort of Labour things in the speech. I can already see some sort of rather pointed sort of commentary online taking the piss out of making fun of the thing about school rights.

libraries and the fact that Rachel Reeves was saying there are fourteen hundred school li uh schools without school library in the country. No, that's a that's a sort of thing that not just tickles the Labour Party's belly but is what the Labour Party is about. It's about spreading opportunity and helping poor kids with an X start in life. But in terms of the answer

To that question I've just talked about, I actually think what Reeves said was pretty muddled. Well, I think that the definition that you spoke about was the failure of Labour's preparation for government. It what was the mission of this Labour government other than to replace the Conservatives? Rydyn ni'n gwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

I think two things have possibly helped Labor with the answer to the definition. Now it's not a satisfactory answer in terms of what is our grand vision for Britain, but I think the Andy Burnham going half hard going early, setting out his thought so clearly has kind of focused minds and I thought that, you know, she takes aim at Andy Burnham in the speech. And it's just worth listening to this particular clip.

yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n Rydyn ni'n cael ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n cael ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n cael ei wneud That doesn't just show up in some OBR reports and some difficult headlines a few months later. It is felt immediately in the growing cost of essentials and rising interest rates. There is nothing progressive.

Rydyn ni'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu'n golygu Yn ymwneud â phobl ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol ysgol

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd Where Farage stood on indefinite leave to remain and saying, Right, even if you've been in this country for years, even if your partner, your husband or wife is here legally, we're gonna boot them out I think that

has given Labour at last something to define themselves against reform by. And I think that's important because I think that frankly we've spoken about it on the podcast. You know, where is the kind of standing up and saying this is not acceptable? And I thought that that you know with Kirstamers

interview yesterday about racism. We got some of that. Well I mean I think there is a lot of nervousness about what Starmer said in terms of from some talking about racism and saying that Nigel Farage's policy was racist, partly because it cuts against all of the thrust

of where Labour has been up to now, which is basically to actually essentially say we agree with Nigel Farage about quite a lot of the problems, but we basically think that he's incompetent or his numbers don't add up. We talked about on the podcast on Monday when when Farage announced that policy, what was the Rachel Reeves response? It was basically Basically well it's the numbers don't work. which sort of implied that if the numbers did work, it would be a good idea. Fast forward to Saturday

And Keir Starmer is saying this is a racist thing, it is a moral problem, it's a you've already seen a shift from just kind of managerialism to values in the space of the week. Now that might well be a good thing, and I think if it were sustained, it would be a good thing. But I think it does tell you.

something about how quickly Labour's strategy is shifting and sort of darting around that that would be the case. It also, you could say, it's a sort of difficult thing thing to thread to some extent, when at the same time you've got Shabala Bukhmood, the Home Secretary, who's speaking later on this afternoon.

Basically at the same time announcing Labour's own crackdown on indefinite leave to remain. All of that said, I think one thing is notable and I think does vindicate exactly what we've been saying for a long time, which is about Labour needing to get on the front foot, be gut.

Be more values-based. Today's the first time I can remember for quite a long time that the news agenda is being dominated by something that Keir Starmer has said or Labour has said about Farage and reform rather than the other way around.

Even though it is high risk, it does tell you something about the value in this difficult news environment for Labour, about being gutsy, about being on the front foot. And to be honest, saying what they believe, because that is, I'm sure if you actually like, you know, drill Starmer down to his

And a lot of the cabinet ministers around, they would say that they would think that what Farage said on Indefinite Leave to Remain is unfair, immoral, and racist. That's probably what they think. And sometimes in politics, where no one else is in doubt, just say what you really think. I had breakfast this morning with a couple of people very senior in Downing Street.

and one said look it was never part of the script that we would say that Nigel Farage is racist. Well we want Keir Starmer to be less scripted, that's what people say. Exactly. Exactly. They said and so they live with it. And so the upside is exactly as you've just described. We now know where he stands. It will appeal to a certain type of people. But the danger is, and it's seen in the Daily Mail today, that the Daily Mail portrays it as Starmer thinks.

you are a racist if you vote reform. And of course that's not of course what Kirstama meant or was saying. And I think you can make the argument that, you know, people vote for reform for all sorts of reasons. But indefinite leave to remain argument of Farage, which will affect non Europeans, because Europeans can stay in Britain, but non Europeans could be subject to being thrown out of the country even though they came here legally.

What's weird about this debate, John? And again, it's such a sort of weird SW1 thing now, or sort of the way our media works. It almost feels like in Britain we've got to the point where accusing someone of racism or being racist, in your view, is worse than actually being racist or having a racist view or suggesting.

a racist policy. That's the kind of weird witch hunt that we're in. I'm not saying for that, it's not for me to say whether this policy is racist or Farage is racist or whatever it happens to be. But that's the kind of like weird jaundice place that we've got into. We spend the entire we saw that even with the Tommy Robinson stuff or we saw it with the

sort of you know Unite the Kingdom March and everything like that. Everything becomes a discussion, a kind of meta discussion about whether or not it's okay to call someone racist rather than actually engaging with the reality and the truth as to whether someone is being racist or is a racist or has a history of racism or not. Which is just the

Bizarre. Yeah, but I think that that is a sign of how much our politics has changed. It seemed to me unthinkable that this is where three, four years ago. that this debate would be kind of taken so seriously or frankly the th the threat of reform. But I think that, you know Labour have not had an argument against reform. They've had it. There's one other thing I want to

raise, which is you know, the budget, which is the government's next huge test coming up. And the phrase that Starmer kept on using in his interview with Laura Kunzberg yesterday on the BBC, which is The manifesto stands. Well will you raise taxes? The manifesto stands. Well why don't you just repeat the lines?

And I I'm not sure This is the question about whether they will increase VAT or national insurance or income tax. Yeah, and I just don't understand where they are on this. Because if if that is the policy that they're not going to raise VAT, income tax and national insurance, then just say say so. And Rachel Reeves has sort of said that today. So what was Kirstarmer doing yesterday? And I d I'm surprised there hasn't been more attention focused on this because it will be a huge decision.

If Labour say, right, we're gonna break our manifesto and we're gonna raise VAT. Yeah, and they definitely need a very compelling story and account as to why that would be the case. And so far as we know, one thing about this government has been that they have not been compelling story makers, they kind of burn through story makers.

They burn through narratives. And I think you're right, there's this very peculiar language that has been adopted about saying that, and you know, because Rachel Reeves has been repeatedly asked, and Starmer, particularly focus on that and whether that might go up, because it that is a very easy way of engaging.

Increasing revenue, it happens kind of immediately, you can do it, it's almost impossible to avoid, etc. So it does raise a could potentially raise a lot of revenue to help Rachel Reeves get out of the so-called black hole that she may be in as a result of the OBR, the Office of Budget Responsibility changes to growth for

and productivity forecast which we know are coming. But it is a very peculiar thing to say, well, basically, my promise stands, which basically it means my promise stands right up until the moment that I break it, which is just a kind of very political sort of weird which is, as you say, it is getting more attention because

is a is a very particular form of work. But I think they need to be making the political argument. I mean, I think that's the thing. And that's what I thought about Reed's speech. So what I thought about Reed's speech, I know you I slightly disagree with that because we were in Hall and we were talking about it after what I think about Reed's speech is there were some good bits in it and actually

She can be quite an effective platform orator. She's usually quite a terrible interviewee, but she's quite a good platform orator. But summed up to me the muddle the party is in in a lot of ways right now because she burned through themes. She burned through ideas. I mean like I just noted some of them down.

You know, just in the same speech, basically, um obviously she was slamming reform, she was talking about our patriotic missions, she was talking about having faith in what is to come, she was talking about our patriotic cause, she the slogan was renew Britain, unlocking opportunity, and then this particular bit, which I think really sums

up the the confusion. She said year one of our government was about fixing the foundations and year two was about building something better. Now the thing is she in the next breath started talking about the fact she's gonna have to take tough decisions when it comes

To the budget come November. Well, hang on a minute. If year one was about fixing the foundations, then why are we still having to make tough decisions? You know, if some builder comes along and says, I fixed the foundations of your house, and then in year two the house starts slipping again, you'll turn around and go, Well, you didn't really fix the foundations.

foundation did you? So I think a lot of the I think one of Roezy's problems right now is that she does not have a compelling account to the party or the country as to why it is that she is continuing to have to take

these difficult decisions that she is having to make. And part of the reason for that, we can talk about some others, part of the reason for that is because she herself has imposed the fiscal conditions on which she now operates because of her commitments on tax. And partly as well because

the growth that she promised has not been forthcoming. But if you look at why the welfare reform measures failed and that rebellion kind of absolutely scuppered the plans of Rachel Reeves, which adds to the sense of the fiscal black hole.

There should have been weeks and weeks of preparation of preparing the Parliamentary Labour Party, of preparing the unions and kind of key stakeholders and civil society that this is what you were going to do. And they didn't do it, and Labour MP said, hang on, no, we're not having it. If you are going to break a manifesto

commitment and the consequences that go with that of such a headline manifesto commitment, then I think you need to be making that argument pretty clearly now and preparing everybody for it and to say why and what the advantages will be.

at the end of it. In a way then one of the most compelling bits, one of the most notable bits, is as you've already said John, where she basically talks about the importance of of fiscal responsibility and the idea that there is nothing Labour, there's nothing social democratic, there's nothing progressive about spending one pound in every ten

On debt interest payments, there's nothing labour or it doesn't promote social justice to lose control of spending and then end up like, you know, basically the bond markets coming after you, and so on, which, as you say, was partly aimed at Andy Burnham. It reminded me a little bit, remember this, in the 19th, late 1990s.

When Jim Callahan makes a speech when he becomes Prime Minister, where he basically says, he basically says that the old model of Keynesianism, where you basically spend your way out of a recession, he tells tells Labour, that option insofar as it ever exists, no longer does.

Right, so and people say, you know, Thatcher was the one who sort of came up with that. They actually it was Jim Callahan in the late 1970s who kind of brought about the end of that old order. That's sort of fine, but I don't think the Labour Party is any mood in any mood to hear it. I don't think the Labour Party, we saw this over the well

Bill. We saw it or sorry over the proposed welfare changes. We're seeing it over the two-child benefit cap. If it's the case, if it's the case, right, that Rachel Reeves is basically anchoring her entire reputation and her politics around saying, look,

I would love to spend more, but we can't. The truth is is that on all sorts of different areas they have given in repeatedly, whether it's on welfare, whether it's on pensioner payments, and all of these different sorts of things. And I don't think that the parliamentary Labour Party or the country right now

Really wants to hear that message around fiscal discipline. And I think we're looking ahead to the contours of the autumn to come, the political autumn to come. I think that is basically the defining kind of fissure in our politics right now. It's the fact that Reeves, because she feels

that she has to and because the markets are telling her that she has to, is basically being forced into a series of spending decisions and the Labour Party, most Labour MPs, aren't convinced about it and don't want to hear it. So this is where I kind of agree with you and disagree with you. Where I disagree

with you is I think that what she did was quite that was successful in the speech or what she the argument that she made was yeah there are bloody tough times ahead but look at the progress we're already making I mean for a Labour Party audience which is you know partly who she was talking to and yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n

labour activist love. I thought she was moderately successful in marshalling that argument but also at the same time as saying yeah very tough decisions and no we're not going to be able to just loosen the purse strings massively in the coming period. Now, I think that governing right now in a social democratic country in Europe is bloody difficult. And I was I was with a former senior Treasury civil servant last week.

who was there when the Tories were in power and was saying it was just almost criminal the legacy that she was left by the last Conservative government and the fiscal black hole. So I mean she has had a difficult hand to play. No. In a way that David Cameron and George Osborne very successfully in the post-2010 period basically landed, which lasted for years, landed with a public

idea, largely unfairly, but that the Labour government had spent too much and therefore all of the things they were having to do, we don't want to do them, but it's a result of the inheritance that was left behind. I think there's loads of reasons why that hasn't landed this time. More hostile media environments, the fact the country I think is just sick of that kind of hair

shirt message and they were more willing to hear it in 2010 than they were in in in twenty twenty four and the fact that perhaps Starmer and Reeves are less politically adroit and less good at communicating that stuff. When I think about this conference now and where the Labour Party currently is in its thinking, I think fundamentally

One of the problems or the biggest problem of all in which they find themselves is that basically they were lazy, intellectually lazy in their run-up to the general election. You've already referred to this in the sense that their diagnosis, both publicly and

be honest largely privately about what was wrong with the country. It was that the Tories were shit. It was that the Tory party were feckless, useless, disputatious, riven with internal splits, and you may well think that all of those things were true. But certainly not solely the root structure.

Causes of British decline. And the truth is, although Keir Starmer going into the election was quite big on diagnosis in the sense of saying, right, Britain has got a massive, massive sort of set of problems, they did not really seriously in any kind of

intellectual project way develop a sophisticated analysis beyond the Tories owning competence as to the problems that we've got here. And as a result, now the Tories have gone and things aren't improving or they're not improving rapidly, the growth isn't coming.

rapidly, all of the things that they hope would happen are not happening. And the politics that they're in, the politics that they're in is so fractious. The Labour Party finds itself almost like it's run down in the road. They can't they can't compute I haven't been able to compute exactly what to do

do next because they didn't do that thinking when they were in opposition. No, it's it's you know, it's obvious that the marked difference. If you think of when you know Blair came into power in ninety seven, kind of, you know, operational independence for setting of interest rates by the Bank of England, the minimum wage. There were a whole series of

Measurau sydd wedi cael ei wneud, oherwydd, sydd wedi cael ei wneud, ac yn ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hyn.

with the economy really in a great shape after kind of the disaster. And th the so the legacy has been terrible, but there wasn't the thinking done about what they were going to do and how they were going to craft their message. I do there's one other thing to prove that I do think in a way it's

sort of it's not our fault directly, but it's the media's fault. I've been thinking about this a lot in the last few days, which is, and I I think actually, Labour would do quite well to actually come out and start sort of attacking it as part of a different sort of media strategy, which is that don't you think that one of Labour's problems right now

is that they find themselves, and it's partly because they seem to have so few ideas in in the governing space and policy space that they talk about very kind of excitedly or in an interesting fashion. It almost feels like there's gonna be an election tomorrow or in six months. Whereas of course there's not

election for four years. We in the media, I think we have started the media more generally, and we've started and it's partly because there's now such a surfeit of polls, so many more polls than there used to be. Twitter is full of polls and everything. We've become almost American in our media political culture of basically talking about

elections, elections, elections all the time, rather than actually governing projects, what the government is doing, the sort of policy issues, right? In America it is true. It is true that there's always an election around the corner. So that's what's determined that media political environment. But in Britain it's not. We we don't actually have this still

Four years. You think about where we were in the parliamentary cycle, in the equivalent in the last parliament. Boris Johnson had just won the Hartley Pool by-election, he'd won a to tunnel loads of council seats, he was riding high, he was talking about basically destroying the Labour Party. 18 months later, you know, 12 months later, he's gone. Trust me.

happens, Starmer's coming in. So I do think that part of it in terms of the malaise is part of the kind of media culture that we're in. But also, Starmer, I think tomorrow it's a delicate thing to say because you you want to recognise the extent of the whole and the Labour Party do fear reform and I get that.

There's a little bit of like, lads, let's calm down a little bit here. You know, let's keep our heads a little bit here. Let's not get distracted. But it does come back to that same thing. That is an easier message to land when you can say, this is the end point, this is the mission.

This is where we're going. So let's not get this get distracted. The reason that this conference is so distracted by the politics right now is because they're so unsure what the Labour Party politically wants to do. So they're getting distracted by the wider politics that is happening around them. They need to decide a'r hyn sy'n ei wneud, a'r hyn sy'n ei wneud, a'r hyn sy'n ei wneud.

Well one of the people that Rachel Reeve singled out for praise in her speech was Bridget Phillipson, the education secretary, who is of course going for the deputy leadership and very much the favoured choice of the leadership as it currently is. We'll be talking to her in just a moment. UK under Ran. News here in Edinburgh. I'm Simon Marks. My American Week is next. Reporting from the Heart of Listen, Anna. app or the new LBC app. LBC leading Britain's conversation. The news agents.

Well we're joined now live on our stand news agent stand by the Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson who has come straight from the conference hall having just made her speech. Education Secretary, thanks so much for joining us. You had an announcement to make on something the Labour Party has long desired on maintenance grants. Tell us about it.

Yn ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl

Grants and the Conservative government introduced loans, which has meant that we've been in a slightly invidious position where quite often poorer students, because their parents are less able to support them through higher education, end up becoming more indebted than richer ones. Mae'n ymwneud yn ymwneud yn ymwneud, ac yn ymwneud yn ymwneud yn ymwneud. Ond yn ymwneud ymwneud ac ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. Ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

ac mae'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw

So we'll set out all the detail at the budget, but it will be paid for by the international students levy that we'll be introducing. So a fee that will be charged to international students and we'll reinvest that into domestic students. And would your uh just one final thing, would would your ambition be to extend it to all courses at some point?

point if you're able. So as I say, w we will set it out at the budget but this will be around uh courses that are aligned to our missions and also to industrial strategy. We want to make sure these are high quality courses where young people have got a great destination. And well how many students do you think it will help?

Well how a year? Rather a lot. But how many specifically? I can't put a number on it at the moment. You'll have to wait for all of the detail to be published in the budget, but this is a significant change. You say it's a significant change and I know you're not going to give us the precise detail.

I just wanna know if it's the kind of very, very poorest and it's just a very small handful of people who will be affected by it game into higher education or whether it's sort of slightly wider than that and will affect you know quite a large number of students.

Mae'n cymdeithasol bwysig iawn. Mae'n cymdeithasol bwysig iawn, mae'n cymdeithasol bwysig iawn, mae'n cymdeithasol bwysig iawn, mae'n cymdeithasol bwysig iawn, mae'n cymdeithasol bwysig iawn, mae'n cymdeithasol bwysig iawn, mae'n cymdeithasol bwysig iawn, mae'n cymdeithasol bwysig iawn, mae'n cymdeithasol bwysig iawn.

So, because of the actions that I'm taking. And just one counter-argument to it. A lot of universities, a lot of higher education institutions kind of see that their future depends on having high numbers of overseas students coming to their institutions, and that's the way they fund the university. If there's going to be an additional

ac mae'n ymwneud â phobl, ac rydych chi'n ei wneud â phobl, ac rydych chi'n ei wneud â phobl, ac rydych chi'n ei wneud â phobl, ac rydych chi'n ei wneud â phobl, ac rydych chi'n ei wneud â phobl, ac rydych chi'n ei wneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud hynny.

There is, I mean when you're sort of walking around, do you think it's a little bit flatter than it has been over the last couple of years? A little bit emptier, fewer people, less excitement. What do you think the mood is here? I think, you know, from I've had lots, you'll appreciate given that there's a lot going on in the Labour Party.

At the moment I'm running to the deputy leader that I've had lots of conversations with lots and lots of Labour Party members. Look, I think of course we acknowledge that we haven't got everything right, but the clear message that I'm hearing from members is that they want us to unite behind what we've achieved, push on and do even more.

Mae'n ymwneud yn ymwneud yn ymwneud â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud â'r pethau. i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch i ddeliadwch

It would seem, if the polls are correct, you know, the the the principal opposition to you will be reform. Do you feel comfortable going back to your constituency in Sunderland and defending what the Prime Minister said about the policy that Nigel Farage had on indefinite leave to remain as racist? And is there a concern

That Nigel Farage will be able to say, which they've already tried to start to say, that that means that Keir Starmer thinks that their supporters are racist. No, because I think what the Prime Minister has set out, what I believe, is where the majority of the British people are, which is yes, we do need to have

rules that are enforced and people want there to be a clear set of rules. But we can't be saying to people who've built their lives and made a contribution here that we're just going to change the rules and basically deport them. I mean that is completely at odds with Labour values, it's completely at odds with the values of the British people.

Rydyn ni'n gweithio mewn gwirionedd o'r bobl sy'n gweithio, yn ymwneud â'r bobl sy'n gweithio. Rydyn ni'n gweithio, yn ymwneud â'r bobl sy'n gweithio. Rydyn ni'n gweithio nad yw'r bobl sy'n gweithio. Rydyn ni'n gweithio nad yw'r bobl sy'n gweithio nad yw'r bobl sy'n gweithio nad yw'r bobl sy'n gweithio.

Mae'n rhaid i mewn gwirionedd yn ymwneudol. Mae'n ymwneudol yn ymwneudol. Mae'n ymwneudol yn ymwneudol. Mae'n ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol. Mae'n ymwneudol yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol. Mae'n ymwneudol yn ymwneudol. line and drifted into territory and language that was unacceptable.

They called that out. That is where people are. A fair, humane system, rooted w in line with our values, where we've always been outward looking, always faced the world. But yes, you have to have rules you enforce. I think that's a pretty straightforward thing. And would you say Nigel Farage is racist? Mae'n rhaid i'n meddwl y mae'n rhaid i'n meddwl y mae'n rhaid i'n meddwl, mae'n rhaid i'n meddwl, mae'n rhaid i'n meddwl y mae'n rhaid i'n meddwl.

Reform Mae'n gweithio ar gyfer ymwneudol, mae'n gweithio ar gyfer ymwneudol, mae'n gweithio ar gyfer ymwneudol, mae'n gweithio ar gyfer ymwneudol, mae'n gweithio ar gyfer ymwneudol, mae'n gweithio ar gyfer ymwneudol, mae'n gweithio ar gyfer ymwneudol, mae'n gweithio ar gyfer ymwneudol

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

Rydyn ni'n gwneud hynny, ac rydym ni'n gwneud ein stori'n ymwybodol, byddwn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'r cymdeithasol. Do you think Andy Burnham wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'

Look, you know, Andy can speak for himself, right? I'm asking you. Yeah, and he I know, he's he's had plenty he's had plenty to see, hasn't he? He's had plenty to say. Well I'm asking you what you think. Do you think Andy Burnham has overplayed his hand? I think all of us do well to remember that politics is a team sport.

And we've got to be an effective team working together, pulling together, uniting. Just chucking stones doesn't get you anywhere. And the members don't like it and the public don't like it. What do you think about what he had to say about number 10 creating a culture of fear in Westminster?

politics and the PLP. I mean there's a certain irony when people say things like we can't talk about a subject and then talk about a subject, isn't there? I mean there he is saying there's we can't talk about this but here's my opinion and here's me talking about it. You sound pretty angry with him education section. But we've got an opportunity here in Labour Party. Yn ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

focusing on looking outwards to the country. Look, we can't fight reform if we're fighting amongst ourselves, can we? One Labour Prime Minister Clement Attlee once said of one of his critics that a period of silence from you would be most welcome. Would you think that that would be sage advice for Andy Burnham to take? Well Clement Attlee was

Was a very, very wise man. And Lewis Goodall getting Clement Attlee into an interview. Could have mentioned Harold Lasky, well. Yeah, I know, I know. One other thing, education. I noticed that obviously you're running for the Zeppelin.

Deputy leadership, you're against that with Lucy Powell. There don't seem to be that many hustings scheduled between you. Would you like to see some more? Absolutely, bring it on. So if we were to do one on the news agents, you'd be very happy to if Lucy Powell would come along to come and do a hustings with us. I'd be all for that, love to join you.

Okay, and on the deputy leadership, are you kind of handicapped, given Keir Starmer's unpopular, to be seen as the representative of the leadership within the cabinet? Frankly you look at Labour List and the what they're saying and the polling numbers of CLPs and all the rest of it, you're not gonna win.

I'm my own woman, first and foremost. I've secured really strong support from members right across our country, and I've also secured the support of many of our biggest trade unions and I'm really pleased to have their support. And in the weeks to come I'll be out there making the country, in making the case across the country. country in our workplaces to our members for why I'm the best

Person to take the deputy leadership forward because look, I'll have a seat at the cabinet table, I'll be able to get things done to make members' voices heard, to bring our movement and our members together and take that forward. You know, if you're outside the cabinet, you don't have that reach, you don't have that cloud. So is your opponent for the deputy leadership one of those who's throwing stones?

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i

in a way that Lucy would just not be able to do from outside of cabinet. Bridget Phillipson, thank you very much indeed for being with us. Thank you. And we look forward to the hustings soon. Absolutely. Yeah look forward to it. Let's get a date. Alright fabulous. Thanks. The newsagents.

Well she had a lot to say, the Education Secretary. She really did. You never know when you you know, oh it's all tittle-tattle, there's nothing to say here, move on. People are exaggerating it. And she really went after Andy Burnham, I thought, in no uncertain terms of what she thought about whether he'd overplayed his hand.

Yeah, indeed. I mean look, and I think Bridget it's no doubt that Bridget Phillips, I mean she denies that she's a number ten candidate for the deputy leadership. I don't think anyone would seriously credibly say that she would not be the favoured candidate if they could choose. But I think no doubt at all that she will be mirroring their view about Andy Burnham.

Which is and as you say John people can say oh it's tittle tell whatever, there has never been any love lost between Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer. And that has never been truer this week. And actually number 10, and you could see it and hear it in the way Phillipson was talking, I think quietly happy actually about the way

that it has been playing out for Burnham, that you know, Burnham Burnham could have played it differently and I suspect he's probably regretting that he didn't play it differently right now. Not least because the Labour Party, unlike the Tory party, actually fundamentally is quite a

even though it's deeply factional, it's deeply into Nissan, but it has this deep spirit within it, this deep strain of fraternity, right? And pulling together it's one of the reasons they don't tend to get rid of their leaders and they do not like the idea of a tall poppy coming along and saying what he thinks. Well it's like Look, you know, he's trying to position himself as the king across the water, except he hasn't got a boat to get to the other side.

bit of a fundamental problem. I I I was talking to someone who's kind of got a lot of experience in these things. He was saying this is actually it's very difficult to mount a challenge. And it's like he has learnt The lesson, sort of, of David Millerband who hesitated about whether he was going to dig. He ain't hesitating, but he's gone too far, too fast.

And actually has kind of galvanized and given some definition. And I think with regards to her in the deputy leadership contest, look, against Lucy Pauch, she she is the underdog. I mean the polling is quite clear and

And Powell has an a much easier kind of narrative that she can pedal and spin and talk about, which is the idea of basically even though she was in the cabinet until very recently, you know, she can say, look, I'm gonna speak truth to Power. This is basically Waze, a way of not quite sticking two fingers up, but certainly expressing your distaste. for the current direction of things and going. Kirstama

We ain't too happy right now as Labour Party members, so this is the person who speaks for us. So it's an easier thing to do. But Phillipson in a way, you know, if you are the underdog, you can speak with a certain level, you can you know you can take more risk. And it is clear that in the way that she's speaking and the number of events that she's doing, she's taking more risks. Apparently there was a disco night the other night.

When she was DJ. Things can only get better, wasn't it? No, we she Lucy Powell was very Gen Z and apparently the Gen Z. Gen Z, come on. Gen Z. You're not in Washington now, John. I'm sticking with Gen Z and Bridget Phillipson's playlist was very much for an older

demographic. I'm just saying that Billy Holliday or something was that. Right, okay, George for me. Alright, well we've got Keir Starmer's speech tomorrow, the Prime Minister, and we will be here for you, bring you all the highlights then. We'll see you tomorrow. Bye bye. See you tomorrow. Bye bye. This is a Global Player Original Podcast.