Is ICE acting like America's 'Gestapo'?

This is a Global Player Original Podcast. We started yesterday's podcast.

With the terrifying sound of gunfire and anger on the streets of Tehran. This is the sound last night of Minneapolis. Get the fuck on the car or get fucking arrested. Get the fuck on the car or get fucking assaulted. Whoa! Whoa! Please have been killed by police before I'm disabled running on the doctor up there! That's what I've been doing! اشتركوا في القناة It's crazy. My man's bleeding. Bleeding.

I just can't believe it. I'm scared. It's frightening. It's terrorizing. We were just standing here. We're just standing here talking. I mean we were just standing here peacefully protesting. Why are you so mad at Why are you so mad at immigrants? What did they do to you? America has a long history of brutal police violence. But for many Americans, this is something darker. Almost a personal militia for the president, acting without restraint, without law.

What will what can I do next? Welcome to the news agents. The news agents. It's John. It's Lewis. And obviously it's now a week or so on from the killing of Rennie Good in Minnesota, which Was the ignition really, I suppose, for this latest kind of bout of both protest but also police violence, particularly in Minneapolis. But what has been going on with I? has a longer pedigree as we discussed last week. In particular, even over the last week, social media has been flooded.

flooded with unbelievable, appalling videos of violence being apparently, reportedly perpetrated by ICE against Migrants and even US citizens alike. In terms of some of the allegations that have been made, there is a combination of tactics. In Minneapolis alone, which peculiarly has become the kind of centre of this. ICE has been accused of warrantless detentions, agents operating in unmarked vehicles, concealing their identity, using force against people later confirmed to be US citizens.

With secrecy, without any visible legal protest. targeting minorities but as I say, not just minorities as well. Secretive force, minority targeting, with very little apparent legal restraint. Indeed so little legal restraints that the federal government itself, from the White House down, has been telling ICE

Which is increasingly to many Americans feeling almost like the president or the federal government's almost personal militia force, they've basically said in one form or another, they can do what they want. See Donald Trump promised in the presidential election. that he was gonna get rid of the gang leaders and the drug cartels and the people who were operating illegally in the country.

And I think there was widespread support for that. But what has happened in between is that it's just got widespread. People are being stopped on the street, not because they are under suspicion of being illegal immigrants. They're being held under suspicion of being brown or black. Because let's face it, if you're brown or black, you might be an illegal immigrant. And so people who have lived their whole lives in America, who may be third generation Hispanic or third generation Somali.

Are being stopped and told, You've got to prove to me that you are an American citizen and it is random. It is brutal. It is visceral. Some of the stories that you're reading, you cannot believe that this is happening on American streets. I mean, there was the whole argument. Over whether Rennie Good, who you talked about there, Lewis, as having been killed when an ICE officer fired three bullets into her head, whether she was using her car as a weapon. Forcing hard stops crashing into vehicles.

Because there might be someone Hispanic or Somali behind the wheel of the other car. And as you say, social media is just a wash. With this seeming war being perpetrated and led from Washington on the people of Minneapolis, but also it's happening in New Orleans, it's happening in Illinois, this is spreading and Donald Trump wants. ICE officers to be fanning out across the country. There is an extraordinary I mean, even in the last twenty four hours there's an extraordinary video.

Of a disabled woman being dragged from her car in Minneapolis. I am on this brain injury, put me down. I was just fucking getting to the doctor and I was like I just didn't It gives me a second to understand. Brown woman dragged from her car by ICE officers, multiple mass Agents wearing sunglasses, flat jackets.

arguing with the woman as she tries to drive away from this encounter, two of the men then reaching through the driver's side window before one of them managed to force it open, drag the woman to the floor, bystanders yelling at them to stop, with one asking, Where is your humanity?

This is a disabled woman, right? I mean this is happening sort of again and again and again. On on each and any occasion, law enforcement of course can, and indeed sometimes they will be right to say perhaps they've identified someone entirely credibly and entirely rightly. Maybe sometimes of course people do resist. Law enforcement and there are split seconds decisions that have to be made and it's not easy. But what we are seeing here is a pattern.

of behaviour. Apparently potentially as I say, even lawless behaviour, acting without restraint and with violence apparently, or the use of aggression at the very least.

as a first resort. And as I say, what is particularly unusual about this situation, and I think what is making this situation so feral almost on the streets of Minneapolis but also elsewhere, is that typically In modern American history, although there is a long history of police violence and brutality in America and they do policing in a very different way than we do, thank goodness.

But nonetheless, authorities state and federal would at least to some level want to be seen to, be observing due process.

proper law and order, and indeed urging restraint on all sides where they can. Now the state government of s doing that, although they are totally against ICE even being there in the first place, that's a bit weird. But what's even weirder and I think much more darker is the federal government, i.e. Trump's the Trump administration's response to all of this, where they're basically saying, ICE, lads

Do what you want. Just listen to this. This is Stephen Miller, the Donald Trump. Deputy White House Chief of State. To all ICE officers, you have federal immunity in the conduct of your duties. And anybody who lays a hand on you or tries to stop you or tries to obstruct you is committing a felony. You have immunity to perform your duties, and no one

No city official, no state official, no illegal alien, no uh leftist agitator or domestic insurrectionist can prevent you from fulfilling your legal obligations and duties. And the Department of Justice has made clear that if officials cross that line, that line into obstruction, into criminal conspiracy, against the United States or against ICE officers, then they will face justice. So that was Stephen Miller. You heard in that montage at the end there a kid.

in tears about the way he'd been treated and someone saying he's bleeding, he's bleeding. So he was arrested Inside a shop. by a number of ICE officers. And when that video emerged, Department of Homeland Security said, ah, he was arrested for assaulting an ICE officer. You think, oh well that must be pretty serious then. You know, maybe he kind of But what happened was he was taken outside, given a bit of a kicking, no charges were ever brought.

So, okay, if you've assaulted an ICE officer, face due process, be prosecuted, go to court, defend yourself, or plead guilty, plead not guilty, whatever. But no, that didn't happen. He was just taken outside Given a bit of a kicking on the floor, emerges battered and bleeding, and no charges are ever brought. This is not the way you conduct a federal agency of law and order in the twenty first century.

No it's not. And I think again, I do think this feels dark. And again, uh you know, we've talked before that I've sort of tried to use restraint when sort of making talking about, you know, far right, fascistic, all of this sort of stuff.

But I'm not surprised I am not surprised that many Americans I don't think it is too frenzied to start talking about this as a sort of far right militia, right? Because ultimately when you have A arm of law enforcement which increasingly is being treated and certainly talked about by the national government almost as their personal militia, their personal police force.

As Miller was saying there, basically without they're completely protected. They have completely immunity. Now for a start that is a legal nonsense. How can you give guarantee that for a start if they do something? They may well be prosecuted under state law. I mean maybe, you know, federally you can completely imagine that Trump would just pardon them just like he did with the January sixths. But anyway.

It's a sort of legal nonsense or a part legal nonsense. But in any case, in what sort of well functioning polity, well functioning democracy does the executive give carte blanche carte blanche. to its own police force or part of the police force to use whatever tactics they want, to do whatever they want, all in the name of

fulfilling what the executive, what the government wants them to do. And then it's not just that, because of course it is coupled with a rising and rising and rising invective From the top of the government, trumped down against particular communities. In this case in Minneapolis. They have been setting up Minneapolis as the hell on earth

Dystopia. We saw that Vance was tweeting that this is what happened. If the Democrats had won the election, every city in America or everywhere in America would be like Minneapolis. They are setting up Minneapolis. as the antithesis of what it is to be American and exactly what you don't want in America. And they are doing that in particular because they are targeting, again with the most grotesque invective and the most grotesque language, targeting a particular community.

i. e. Somalians. When Trump talks about Somalians as being garbage. And at the same time basically sends his personal militia in without Any legal restraint and telling them they can do what they want, what do you think is going to happen? Trump knows exactly what is gonna happen. And if I were a Somalian American, a US citizen in Minneapolis right now, I would be terrified, and I am sure that they are. Well that is exactly what Donald Trump wants you to be. He wants you to be terrified.

I said at the very, very top of the podcast, you know, we played out the sounds of the streets of Tehran, this is the sound of Minneapolis. There were also two tweets yesterday or two truths. on Truth Social from Donald Trump. One about Iran, where he said, don't worry, help is coming, keep protesting and the other one for Minneapolis was saying the day of reckoning is coming.

And you kind of thought there was a sort almost a symmetry of the messaging between the two. This is having a political effect as well, and I don't think the White House will like what they're seeing. In the twenty twenty four presidential election. Donald Trump did astoundingly well. with the Hispanic vote. The highest ever. I think something like forty five percent of Hispanic voters

supporting Donald Trump in the election. Trump assembled Trump Trump assembled not just with Hispanic but with black voters Trump assembled the multi ethnic working class coalition that the Democrats have been dreaming of and thought that was theirs by right. for years and decades and Trump was the one who put it together. Well here we are in the year of the midterms and Hispanic support for the Republican Party

is not only cratering, it has cratered. I wonder why. Exactly. And so you are putting in jeopardy The coalition that you have built up by this heavy handed, idiotic mob in their kind of unmarked cars and their quasi militaristic uniform, looking to the world like a private militia that have been hired and put together

that you have got no control over. I think that this is costing Trump and will cost Trump a lot. I'm sure the base I'm sure it's red meat in certain states in the deep south or wherever Where Donald Trump supporters will be loving it.

But I'm sure a lot of independent Americans will be just thinking, What on earth is going on? Traditional Republican votes as well. I mean look, and I think a really good sort of crystallization of that shifting politics on that and the idea that, you know, America is noticing. When Joe Rogan, fellow podcaster of course.

Uh as influential as us? I wouldn't have thought so. Nonetheless, uh influential in certain circles in America. You know, big big moment. You know, everyone talks about twenty four rightly as being a sort of podcast presidential election, you know, very big influential figures. Joe Rogan was perhaps the most influential of those. Uh back Trump. I'd previously been a Democrat, of course.

He had something very interesting to say about this on his show last night. Just listen to how h what his impression is of what he is seeing in Minneapolis and other cities in America. just roaming around snatching people up, many of which turn out to actually be US citizens that just don't have their papers on them? Are we really gonna be the the Gestapo where's your papers?

Is that what we've come to? And this is what I mean. I mean you know when I The Gestapo. The Gestapo. And this is what because again, sort of reluctance to sort of resort to this in a way'cause it almost feels lazy or glib, but it's not. It's not because when you have a militarised police force operating in that fashion, in that way, targeting people who the government itself

through its rhetoric and through its invective is targeting in the most appalling possible terms. That is far right. That is reminiscent of a Gestapo, right? Particularly and I think you're right, John, in terms of you know, America Although it has got a profoundly authoritarian streak in some ways, particularly with the way that it does policing and it feels very comfortable, much more comfortable with that heavy handedness th than we do.

At the same time,'cause all countries are you know masses of contradictions, it has a profoundly it is profoundly libertarian at the same time. And the idea, exactly as Rogan is articulating there. The idea of a federal police force, effectively, because that's what it is, acting in that way, yeah, turning up on American streets, asking people for their identity papers, that does not sit at all with

American political culture or American political history. That is not how Americans operate or that political culture operates. So I am not surprised at all that you're already generating a backlash to it. But as ever, with so much I feel we talk about this all the time in different guises with Trump.

You know, th they are an administration I think that continues to be punch drunk on their own success. And I think they are at that point and they've been going through a long period of self-radicalisation and they are egged on by their worst excesses and others who exist in their orbit who embodied their worst excesses.

And I think increasingly they are failing to see how they are being perceived. Not by the left, not by the radical left, not by the Democrats, but actually by your everyday ordinary American who might have liked lots of the things that Trump Stood on and stood for. But he didn't stand on this. And you know, he stood for strong border, which he has, as we've discussed and given him some credit for, he's had some success. But this ain't strong border, this is attacking.

and victimizing your own citizens in their own homes. That's a different thing. And Joe Rogan, you know, is a hugely influential. I mean we were facetious about it when we introduced him. He's hugely influential. Oh massive. And massively important. to the MAGA crowd who love Joe Rogan. He is the kind of embodiment in so many ways of Trump's grip on the media and the sort of narratives that he is expressing that people flood

To Joe Rogan. And when Joe Rogan is calling the Ice Agents acting like the Gestapo And Donald Trump at the head of that, that is serious for the MAGA movement. Now in Minnesota and in Illinois, legal action is apparently going to be taken to try and stop the deployment of the ICE officers. It's thought that when it gets to the federal courts that's probably unlikely to get very far. But again, you know, and I don't know w it almost sounds kind of cute or quaint

to talk about this and about the setup of America. You know, states are meant to have the power. A federal government is not meant to be strong jackbooting in and taking over cities and taking over states. That's the whole m point of a federalized system in America, that the states elect their governors, they appoint the police forces, you know, everyone stands for election. And in Minnesota and in Chicago and Illinois and New Orleans and all these other places.

Trump is saying I am taking charge of all of this. It is a federal police state. and I will do what I like.

There's just two other longer term effects I think that this potentially uh has, which I think we should keep an eye on. Actually there's three. There's one slightly shorter term, which is look, it it feels very likely that this is gonna lead to to more clashes. This is fire upon fire in in every direction. And we have seen the extraordinary breakdown in not just communications and politics, but even just

you know, realities between state officials and national officials that we saw in the wake of the the Ready Good shooting, with both sides basically accusing the other of something almost like akin to sort of treason in the way that, you know, they're dealing with these things. So That's appalling. The two longer term things I think that is really worrying about all of this. One is it's kind of that it's you know, there is just such a danger.

of basically all policing and all legal enforcement in America becoming so politically contested that any sense of that kind of civil order really starts to break down. This is obviously not new. This has been building up for a long time. We saw it in the wake of George Floyd and so on. You know, policing in America

is deeply politicized and has been for a long time. But this feels like it is taking it to another level still. Not least because of as I say the complete breakdown between state and national. And then the other thing is is of course what ICE might yet be useful in the future. At the moment it's being used for harassing people, rounding people up, you know, putting people in detention when they shouldn't, all terrible for those individuals. We're in an election year.

In America. It's the midterms. And there are lots of people who are worried about the midterms and about the probity of the midterms. Not that they'll be cancelled. Trump can't cancel them. He hasn't got the constitutional power to cancel them. But can he make them so disorderly? That their legitimacy is highly disputed, you bet he can. You know,'cause what can he do? He can say, look, we've got really concerned that illegal migrants are voting at the polling station.

In the big cities, in Denver, in Los Angeles, in Minneapolis, in New York, you name it, we're very concerned. These people don't have ID, we don't know who they are. We're gonna pose some I Offices in polling stations. In very particular place. Not everywhere. We don't need to do them in Republican places. No, no, of course not. We're gonna put them in these democratic strongholds where they weigh the votes and which the Democrats need always

To make sure that they're gonna, you know, take these house districts. And suddenly when you've got a house set of races which are razor sharp and the Dems only need to take a couple of races. Then what do you do? Suddenly you've basically put off loads of people for turning up.

to vote on those days'cause they just do not want the hassler being frisked by an ICE officer or told to give your papers because you're black or you're brown or whatever you happen to be. So that is the bare minimum of the trouble and disorder that they could create.

And I think that is a really worrying port end and something that, you know, people I know are thinking about increasingly as we look towards November. I mean maybe I'm getting you know, just absolutely further to that. Look, some of what has gone on in the past year where The Trump family has been enriching itself with the presidency.

You know, trade deals are being done at the same time as deals are being done for the Trump organisation to develop hotels and leisure complexes in the country where you're negotiating what the terms of trade should be with the US administration to the huge advantage. of the Trump family. All of that would get investigated if the Democrats take control of the House. So in some ways this is an election in the midterms.

that Donald Trump cannot afford to lose. Absolutely. And if he cannot afford to lose What is he prepared to do to ensure that he doesn't lose. And that takes you to a pretty dark place in the history of US democracy. Right, when we come back we're going to be talking actually about a policing matter a little bit closer to home. It's like the crime agency here today, isn't it? No, we've both got more hair than those two. We'll be talking about a story, as I say, about Westmil's police.

And that match between Aston Villa and Maccabi Tel Aviv, stay with us. LBC app Leading Britain's conversation.

The news agents. Well we're going to return now to a story which was a bit of a course celeb in politics towards the end of last year. You'll remember the enormous row, which divided in pretty predictable ways politically.

That took place after Maccabee. Tel Aviv fans, a club I must say, of which I was not aware before this uh particularly. Your international football is extensive. I would say my knowledge of Israeli football is uh especially limited, but never mind. Obviously they were banned by Westminster Peace or their Fans were banned by West Midlands police for coming to uh a game with Aston Villa in Birmingham. They said because they had evidence to suggest.

that there would be potentially be uh unrest and public disorder because there was a long history of fans of this particular team causing trouble when they uh travelled around Europe and so on. Indeed there has been a history of that. Um nonetheless The chief of West Midlands Police this morning has had to apologise to MPs for giving them incorrect evidence about that decision to ban those fans, saying among other things that some of the evidence has been produced by AI.

So this goes back to Craig Guildford, who is the chief of Westmids Police. telling the Home Affairs Select Committee previously that the inclusion of a fictitious match between Maccabees fans and West Ham in police intelligence quotes arose as a result of the use of Microsoft Copilots. The chief constable had previously told MPs that the force did not use AI for any of this.

And the mistake regarding the West Ham match, which had never taken place, was made by one individual during one Google search. This is just the latest indeed, of a series of revelations that show that the evidence, the sort of dossier that they had put together to support the idea of the ban has in the particulars either been wrong or at the very least disputed. And what has made it worse for Craig Guilford, the chief constable, is that he has misled MP.

And in our constitution You can be prosecuted for going before a select committee. And not telling the truth. And it seems that he hasn't told the truth. Now, whether it's because he didn't know and people below him hadn't given him the full picture, or whether he knew but still dissembled, is unclear. But certainly. The Chief Constable is in a very vulnerable position now.

And frankly, it's hard to see him survive unless he wishes to be extremely bloody minded, because it does look like the evidence on which their judgment was based was largely a tissue of fiction. and that they had created a case against why the Maccabee fans from Tel Aviv should not come and should not be allowed to go to Villa Park. was just based on next to nothing. And so you've got a position now Where the chief constable has repeatedly misled.

And you've got the home secretary and by the time you've listened to this. I'm sure Shabana Mahmood will have spoken, where she has to give her judgment, does she have confidence or not in the chief constable? But she can't sack him. And so this could become a real arm wrestle between an obstinate and obdurate

Chief Constable and a Home Secretary who probably is beginning to tear her hair out over this. I think of you as both obstinate and obdurate. Those are the two adjectives that come to mind when I think of you. What obstinate? Obstinate and obdurate but they're a nice word.

Don't you think? So you think I'm I am a pussy kid. When you want no no when you want to be. Um should we take this outside? Because I think we're doing a podcast now. I was just impressed by your vocabulary. And your personal feelings towards me. I think we should leave

We should say one other thing as well, just to add to the pressure that's on Craig Guilford. It looks like as well, on top of all of this, this is not just political pressure or political criticism. He and the force are going to be criticised in a report by his Majesty's Inspector of

Constabulary, the policing inspector at the policing watchdog, where it will it is reported, lay out in uncertain terms that the force made a serious cascade of errors in how it gathered and handled this intelligence, not least Their claim that they were told by Dutch police that Maccabee fans were perpetrators of the violence in Amsterdam,

um which has been the centre of so many of the basically the c the absolute core of the case that was put forward. And that apparently just in terms of even how the conversations took place and when, has been disputed by the Dutch police. So it does feel like a bit of a

Feels like a bit of a house of cards really. Yeah. So you know, when you've got a story that Top Cop is telling porkies, it becomes pretty difficult for him. Well let's speak now to Gabriel Pogrand, who is the Whitehall editor of the Sunday Times.

and who first started peeling back the layers on this story. Just take us through this latest twist and maybe rewind for us on how this all started. Absolutely. So John, at the heart of this whole fandango is the question of whether number one Westmids Police use flawed, possibly fabricated information to justify a very politically controversial decision, namely ban on Maccabi Tel Aviv fans.

Travelling to an away game against Aston Villa last year. And number two, whether Craig Guildford, the chief constable of Westmids Police,

has himself misled MPs about uh the misleading intelligence. So uh if that's not too complicated a way of framing it, today we had a pretty um important development, which was that Guilford apologized having repeatedly told MPs that AI had no hand um in some of this slightly dubious information, he now acknowledges that a fictitious game cited in the intelligence

between Tel Aviv and West Ham was actually the product of an AI hallucination by Microsoft's co-pilot. So he kept saying this has nothing to do with AI, but but actually it did, and he has fessed up to that fact. And that in itself is remarkable that a game that didn't happen was part of the evidence. That's right. I suppose that I kind of at the heart of the matter um is whether it's okay for police information to be contaminated by AI and whether

there are kind of accountability structures in place in cases like this where the chief constable's own actions and statements are what's under the microscope. Because I mean, just to zoom out for one moment, where this all began was The decision at the time kind of divided opinion in quite a predictable way.

Ayyub Khan, the local pro Gaza Independent, had been uh against it, so had a number of counselors. They said that permitting fans from the Jewish state to attend, uh, would amount to a kind of shot in the arm for Israel and an endorsement of its genocide. And then on the other hand you'd Kemi Baidnock who called it a national disgrace and the Israeli government also condemned it. And I thought that that was what the kind of contours of the debate were and that the world would kind of

keeps billing on its axis and everybody that thought one thing would retain their priors and uh that that would be that. And I suppose where it changed was I was leaked some intelligence, which was the kind of decisive information upon which the decision was based. And it all it sort of majored on the disorder which broke out in Amsterdam, um, when Maccabi played Ajax there a year and a half or so ago.

And without kind of uh endlessly equivocating and caveating, I mean Maccabi Tel Viv fans are uh in many instances thuggish enough without no there being any need to gild the lily and exaggerate what happened in Amsterdam, which, no doubt, on both sides was pretty bleak. But this intelligence did just that. It, for instance, stated that Maccabi fans randomly chucked civilians into a river. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hynny

Free Palestine. Uh Westmid claimed that five thousand officers were deployed in response. Actually it was around one thousand two hundred over several days. And they also claimed, um, and to any kind of student of the Middle East this Is such nonsense. It is kind of palpable from outer space. They claimed that 200 of Mukhabi's fans were what they called linked.

to the IDF, but in a co country with military conscription, probably more than two hundred were in some way linked to the IDF. So essentially the intelligence disintegrated upon contact with reality. And I uh the reason why now people are calling for the chief constable to go is that Guildford, rather than acknowledging that, essentially doubled down in the course of so doing misled MPs and has now been forced

to apologize for various things and it all looks rather embarrassing. It's not only that, is it, Gabriel?'Cause there are other other claims that the Westmidden's police have made which which have at least turned out to be disputed. So Westmid said that they were told by Dutch police That Maccabee fans were the perpetrators of the violence and IAX, not the victims. And they say that's strongly disputed. The Dutch police themselves

have strongly disputed the accounts of the number of communications and so on that they had and have since spoken to the inspectorate of c of Constabulary to to say as much. I mean this feels difficult for Guilfords to survive, doesn't it, if these things are borne out.

Well it does. I mean I supp I suppose yeah uh uh essentially it was last November that the Dutch police spokesman told me that he didn't recognise the essence of the intelligence that West Midland's put to Birmingham City Council to justify this back.

Um so it does look very difficult for him. Also I should say too that he he he also mischaracterized the Jewish community's position in respect of this. So I've read their intelligence. They say I've always found this slightly odd. They claim the Christian community the black community, the Muslim community and the Jewish community had all uh supported a ban or they uh made statements to that effect in a parliamentary session.

And a slightly odd notion, not least when the Jewish community said it had barely been consulted. And they've now apologized for that too. So, I mean, there's all sorts of misstatements which have enter the public domain. But the real question, Lewis, pun it politically is, well what if he doesn't go? There's my uh endlessly richly sourced colleague Steve Swimford

today reports that Guildford might somehow uh refuse to go, even if he is censured by this inspectorate. And in that scenario Shabana Mahmood is suddenly a qu quite a sticky wicket because She cot she's condemned the underlying decision, so is Keir Starmer. But there is this kind of growing argument being advanced by the Tories that she's been a bit weak, that the case is so watertight against him that she doesn't really need to wait for an official watchdog

to opine on the matter and and she is by dint of geography also linked to this. She knows a lot of she's a Birmingham MP.

and knows a number of the counsellors who were already arguing against the game on the grounds that it would amount to an endorsement of Israel for them to attend. So I think that Shabonomo is in quite an awkward spot, and probably as we record that she's just gearing up to make a statement in the House of Commons in which it it has Being speculator, she'll say she doesn't have confidence in Guildford, but

but that does not mean he will in fact go. And so it is one of those rare cases where kind of politics and policing are colliding and the outcomes not that predictable. I suppose uh two things can be true at once, can't they, Gabriel? Which is to say that it is possible that West Midlands Police or indeed any police force might have legitimately come to a decision

to do what they did. I don't know really anything about football. But my understanding is, having now read about this and this being around for a long time, is that there is a history with with Maccabi fans and obviously there is a local environment as well, which might not be illegitimate to consider.

But the at the same time, clearly the basis on which they presented to Parliament that they'd made those decisions was at best deeply circumspect and in our constitutional order that we have where misleading parliament is the big no no that any public body or MP or whatever cannot do, that's gotta be profoundly problematic.

News Ages being the home of nuance, I I'm very glad you said that, because I I I d I I absolutely agree. I mean I d I do not hold a candle for

Maccabi ultras and um it's not for me to speak on behalf of the Sunday Times, but the thrust of our reporting has never been that they're all lovely chaps. There's much footage from what happened in Amsterdam which indicates otherwise. But the question is both Did they nevertheless have introduce hyperbole and misinformation into what they, uh, you know, in very po faced manner characterise as police intelligence to justify all this.

And secondly, as you say, uh did they mislead Parliament? Well, I mean we we know they did, but was the misleading so bad that it requires him to go? I will say, by the way, from the outset that this need not have happened had Westmids just answered the questions I

have been quite mischievous and done some freedom of inf information requests and found that West Mids initially called me quite irate and uh were discussing behind the scenes how they could deter my questions and encourage me to submit

Freedom of information requests if I wanted any further answers because they weren't going to say anything else. Buffoons if they're writing this stuff down and they're going to be subject to you know freedom of information. I mean they don't o only sound s not only sound slightly dishonest, They sound idiotic. Yeah, well, and also I just think it's one of those cases where because law enforcement are not th th this kind of a whole

way in which police forces are scrutinized has evolved quite a lot. But we're now in a world where the Home Secretary cannot dispense with the chief constable. So it all comes down to the local police cr and crime commissioners which are

who themselves appoint these people. So it's not like politics where there there are loads of committees and loads of public scrutiny. You know, the local press and regional press is obviously if not dead, then certainly not what it was. And so I think they just were not at all used to scrutiny and had they just come out, had Guildford come out at the beginning and said

Yeah, I've got my rubber gloves on, I've properly inspected this, and to be fair, it seems like there's a lot of inaccuracies in the intelligence we provided. I I think the reaction well, th there would have never been a story. And there and then you know, there were some of the

Yeah, there's some principal MPs who took it took an interest in my reporting originally, but I kind of thought it would be uh possibly a here today, gone tomorrow sort of thing. But it is the way that Guildford has kind of refused to address scrutiny and actually compounded the damage by

Mm providing false statements that has probably led to the issue at hand. Listen, I just want to ask you this finally. Do you think this was a case where not they gathered evidence to reach a judgment, but reached a judgment and then looked for evidence To justify it.

And if that's the case, was it because of political pressure? That question is at the essence of this whole whole affair. And I I'd sort of say my answer is more or less that is what happened. I mean, I got leaked some minutes of the the original safety advisory group meeting where West Mids kind of said that their preference was for there to be a ban.

Now, the council agreed. There were two councillors who had already said publicly they wanted the ban to take place on a kind of political basis. That they they spoke and rallied behind the police and ev everybody essentially agreed that that was what was going to happen. But twenty four hours later, Birmingham City Council wrote to Westmids, secretly, uh or at least privately, I'll say, and said,

We're all happy with the decision. I've been challenged on it internally and we need a bit more evidence and a slightly clearer rationale to justify it. So yes, the cart came before the horse. The decision was made. The following day they realized they didn't have sufficient evidence. Then Westmid turned around and produced the intelligence. Then the intelligence was derided. So that is the fact pattern. And the real question that

the likes of Nick Timothy, West Suffolk and P have been posing is well was that itself a response to what he's characterised as Islamists locally? It is a fact that Now we know police had gathered intelligence that they failed to publish that there were people in the local area prepared to take up arms against the away fans.

and there were was a credible threat to the Jewish community too, but n none of that entered the public record. It was all about the threat posed by m uh Tel Aviv fans. So it seems like the uh police have at the very least been selective about what truth has been convenient for them to appear in the public domain. Gabriel Pochran, grateful to you. Thank you very much indeed. Thanks Gabriel.

The news agents. We devoted more or less the whole episode to Iran yesterday, after we recorded there was that message from Donald Trump that help is coming. Well we've just seen that Reuters is reporting that the US is withdrawing personnel from several bases in the Middle East, i.e. the sort of places that would become targets if Iran chose to retaliate, all of which sort of leans into the idea.

that America is getting ready to strike. Yeah, and indeed that was you might remember that that was in terms of the sequencing of events, that's precisely what happened when the US struck. Iran last time, but in that case to attack their nuclear programme or the nascent nuclear programme. They withdrew military personnel from their bases in Qatar and across the Gulf and and elsewhere. So That would suggest that as Trump very strongly hinted yesterday, help is coming.

Whatever form that takes and how aggressive the s the actions are and exactly what they do would obviously we can't know yet. But it feels that um well, Trump is very concerned, as we say, with um violence against protesters broad. Little bit less so at home. But hey, that's democracy for ya. We'll be back tomorrow. We'll see you then. Bye bye. Bye bye. This has been a Global Player original production.