¶ Labour's Brexit Divide Emerges
This is a Global Player original podcast.
Two pretenders to the throne vying for the Labour leadership, playing slightly different contests, slightly different games, playing two different audiences.
When you've threatened to resign as many times as I have to try and get something that you want, you do have to sometimes go through with the threat for people to believe that it's real.
been more aggressive for some time, including under the Kirstama government, in going for Farage and Pointing out the lies and
Right now, Brexit is the status quo. We are partying like it is 2016 again.
I'm not proposing that the UK considers rejoining the EU. I respect the decision that was made at the referendum, and it's going to undermine everything I've said about strengthening democracy. If we don't respect that vote...
After a weekend where the Brexit debate has once again engulfed the Labour Party. That was Andy Burnham speaking at a business conference in Leeds today, doing everything he could to shut it down. And if you're thinking he didn't sound quite as fluent, quite as conversational, quite as informal as he usually does, it is was it's because he was looking down at his notes, making sure he didn't miss a single word.
It is a minefield for any potential Labour leader. But is Brexit going to hang around their necks whatever they say next? Welcome to the newsagents.
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The news agents.
It's Lewis.
It's mateless.
And uh the Prime Minister, well the almost Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, and uh a road runner extraordinaire has been treating us over the course of the weekends, the first Full days of his Make a Field campaign. Should actually be said, as uh at the time of recording anyway, he's not officially the Makefield.
candidate yet, the CLP haven't met. So make a field constituency Labor Party have the opportunity to do something to do something really hilarious by choosing some local councillor or something like this and upending the whole process.
The guys that just lost his job in last week's uh elections. Come on in, come on back.
Exactly. But it's that seems unlikely. Look, the first couple of days of of this um by election have predictably enough been deeply weird. We've got um a Prime Minister Keir Starmer who is saying that he wants everybody to go and campaign for the guy who absolutely definitely wants to replace him. We've got the Prime Minister who
Th th authority and power has already started to flow and slip and ebb away. And the proof positive of that has been the whole weekend I should say has been spent passing over and trying to divine exactly what Andy Burnham and to a lesser extent West Streeting think about all manner of issues. principally and particularly the EU and Brexit. And that is because at a progress rally, which is a sort of Labour of think tank campaign group, rally over the weekend, West Streeting opened
the Brexit Pandora's box and said very, very clearly that during his lifetime he wants to rejoin or wants to see us rejoin the EU and up to that point have a new special relationship. This is what he said.
We need a new special relationship with the EU, because Britain's future lies with Europe and one day, one day, back in the European Union.
¶ Leadership Ambitions and Strategic Brexit Stances
We are parting like it is twenty sixteen again, May the eighteenth, and we are uh a month and ten years away from the Brexit votes. And I guess West Streeting is one of those who think Look, we have been in a crouch position in the Labour Party for far too long, and this seems like a time to make not just You know, a change of leader, but a change of argument for where we are now. There are some around Burnham who think Uh it's a carefully placed.
leg trying to trip him up on his A Road run, um, by making him sort of essentially face down reform in a previously very Brexit voting part of the world in Makerfield, um in in Wigan. And I guess there is an argument for saying that actually um Wes is allowing Andy a bit of
different space. In other words, where Streeting could become the character who says, This is what I want, this is where I'm going and Andy Burnham becomes the character, you know, as in i in the sort of in the contest, who says not now. Um this is not my priority. Now just a year ago, Andy Burnham was making what was essentially the same argument. Essentially he said, not now, but one day. Here's what he said at uh fringe event in uh September of twenty five.
Yeah.
Long term, I'm gonna be honest, I'm gonna say it. I I would I wouldn't rejoin in the I hope in my lifetime I see this country rejoin the European Union. Absolutely clear.
Look, I mean what we should say is that th this word prioritization is is gonna be doing a lot of heavy lifting in the week. That comes because you've heard from Burnham, he's essentially a Romainer who thinks that we should be back in the EU. You've heard from West Streeting, he is a big-time Remainer who thinks we should be in the U.S. They're all remainers and I think that is fundamental to where the Labour Party is now. There are very few MPs. There are some uh who are holding down seats.
in parts of the country where ten years ago there was a very heavy Brexit vote who think this is the last thing that the Labour Party needs to talk about. But if what is happening now is basically Labour talking to itself and its members They are in the nineties and the late eighties and nineties in favour of remain or whatever we'd call the next.
Well that is the question. Um they're nearly all remainers. The question is whether they're all rejoiners and when they might be rejoiners. And you're right, Emily, like w in in many respects it's a sort of weird row this because Their position is is broadly the same as far as we can tell. The question is really one of emphasis and a question of when. And of course, we know that the emphasis is different because the two men are playing different games for different contests.
The reason, I think entirely correctly, that Burnham people are irritated by Streeting, is that Streeting is playing a longer game here, which is that he is preparing the way and everything he's done since last week in the way that he resigned. has been about anticipating a contest without Burnham in it. Now that is weirdly that's ironic because he says of course that he is waiting to launch a contest for Burnham to be able to join. Right.
He says he's got the numbers. I mean, seems a bit of a weird position to be in if you've got the numbers to launch a contest and you're not doing it and waiting for the guy who can almost certainly beat you. But there we go. But of course the truth is is that Streeting probably doesn't have the numbers right now and he knows almost certainly that he can't beat Burnham with Labour Party members. So what he is doing is preparing the way with an eye on the Labour Party
Uh selectorate, the Labour Party members who would determine such such a contest. He knows they're overwhelmingly pro-EU. He knows they're largely concentrated. In London, and he is preparing a policy prospectus, a platform on which to run in that Labour Party leadership contest in the event That Burnham loses, that he doesn't win in Makerfield. He is looking therefore streeting at the electorate of Labour Party members. Burnham, meanwhile, of course, is playing down all this Brexit stuff.
Because he is looking at the electorate, which is the constituency of Makerfield, which is as you say, is highly Brexit voting. So we will see more of this, I think, of the two men, these two pretenders to the throne vying for the Labour leadership.
¶ Makerfield By-Election: A New Referendum?
Playing slightly different contests, slightly different games, playing two different audiences.
Yeah. And I guess this takes us to the contest of Makerfield itself. which was Reform's I think thirteenth closest second place in the election. And in many ways I guess it is a a seat tailor made for reform. It kind of squarely aligns with Reform's core vote. Ninety six, ninety seven percent of it is white, a much lower percentage of ethnic minorities, it is older and heavily Lee voting ten years ago. Um
It ignores one crucial fact, which is that Burnham outperforms the Labour Party hugely. So I think the latest polling I've just had from uh Luke Trill actually, I had a a little chat with him this morning, um, is that he outperforms the Labour Party by about, I think, two to one. So
Not hard these days.
But I was having a a chat with Luke Trill this morning, who just put some of this stuff um into perspective. The maker field by election forecast that Moore in Common has run, his polling agency, is um with Burnham. Labour gets forty five percent and reform gets forty two. In other words, an incredibly narrow
victory for Labour, or for for Burnham, I suppose you'd say, within the margin of error. Without Burnham, um, they think it is r reform fifty three percent, Labour twenty seven percent. In other words a huge a massive gap between fighting that see with Burnham at your helm rather than somebody else from
No one would else would have a chance. No.
No one else would have to But here's where it gets really interesting and and this was um part of the chat I was having with Luke this morning. When we talk about this heavily voting part of the world and heavily Brexit voting part of the world. He reminds us that we are still going off figures that are now a decade old. And he's done some separate modelling to the stuff that he's put here and he says We think the vote, the seat, would vote narrowly for remain in a rerun of the referendum.
Exclamation mark. Now obviously the lovely thing about any kind of vote is that they take you by surprise. You do not know what you're gonna get, you do not know how the campaigns are gonna play out, you don't know the full force that, you know, Brexit Tys Farage could throw at that.
We don't know the
We don't know I mean none of this is known. But it's interesting that what he's trying to say is don't write off places that might once have been heavily in the Brexit vote area, you know, a decade ago because So much has changed. We know that the country kind of is is not as
solidly behind Brexit as it was ten years ago, partly because of all the shenanigans that we've been through as a result, partly because of the way it was conducted, partly because people have frankly lost faith in any politician saying that they're gonna deliver anything now. So I think it is wrong to assume that we would be seeing the same fight as in twenty sixteen.
I I agree. I think it would be a different fight. Um uh and I think uh it would be different not least because there are certain people uh associated with Leave and Brexit who would dearly love to relitigate it and they think it would be even more powerful because they're Slogan would simply be tell them again.
Tell them again, you keep telling them, and those elites just do not listen. And there are people at the top of the Labour Party, particularly in the Red War, who are terrified that it would be like twenty nineteen plus plus plus. Now you're right, Emily, I I'm I'm sort of a bit torn on this because I think the g the question I think for Labour is both what would the politics be of a sort of more aggressive
You know, uh friendly EU approach, rejoin, and is all also the right policy. So just thinking about the politics. Look, I'm sympathetic to to a
¶ Challenging Labour's Brexit Timidity
one of West Streeting's arguments, which is to say, look, the Labour Party has got to make some arguments. You know, like I mean, you know, I've been someone who for some time has been criticizing Starmer for not making enough arguments. Now, it'd be a bit hypocritical then to turn around to someone like Streety and go, Right, you're making an argument
You've got to be shut up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't make an argument. Shut up, don't say it. And and ultimately, you've got to be making an argument in order to win it. Totally get that and understand that. Admire that. Question of course I think is is this the right argument at this time for Makerfield, which is so crucial for the Labour Party? We've got to remember what Westreating's agenda here is. I I don't doubt that he believes exactly what he's saying. The question is
Is it the right moment in terms of the politics? And we did just see, let us not forget, we did just see
Bye.
a party literally displace the Labour Party in whole swathes of the wet red wall in these recent elections, which until not very long ago was literally called the Brexit Party. And I think it would be I am sympathetic to the argument that someone like Jonathan Hinder, the MP for Pendle, has been making, which would be a slightly peculiar, very instant flex for the Labour Party's instant response to that to be, okay, let's go full on rejoin.
I think that there is an argument that can be made and it is absolutely true on the politics before we get to the policy, it is absolutely true that the Labour Party should have been more aggressive for some time, including under the Keir Starmer government, in going for Farage and Pointing out the lies, pointing out the inconsistencies, pointing out the things that have not happened, which he said that he would, because up to now both he and the architects of Brexit have kind of had a bit of a
A free pass from many people because they've been afraid of the politics. But as Linton Crosby, the Tory strategist, used to say, you can't fatten a pig on market day. You've got to make these arguments. And for Labour to suddenly flex very quickly in that way without making those arguments I think a lot of people in Makerfield and people like that will frankly just be bewildered.
Look, y I think that's why I said, you know, the whole question of priority. Priority is doing a lot of heavy lifting now and that's what I mean that when Andy Burnham goes to Makerfield he's not going to be talking about Brexit for exactly that reason. He just has to say my colleagues might be saying, you know, this is the time for rejoining. I'm going to concentrate on the cost of living, I'm going to concentrate on the
on the cost of petrol and what your food um is costing you in the supermarkets. It's a very easy space actually for Andy to do and I and I think in a way we'd be naive to think that Wes Streeting not coming into the argument like that would make the Brexit
Well,
Reform will bring up literally what Burnham said six months ago, eight months ago. Although this is what I'd say, right? It worked really well when that was an insurgent idea. Right? When people go, What's it called? Bre w oh, what would what we call Britain exit, Brexit. Oh, what's that? What's that? It was about breaking things. It was about taking the establishment and throwing it in their face, wasn't it? It was about saying
You hate your lives. We're gonna give you something different. We're gonna tear down the institutions. We're gonna tear down everything that doesn't work and we'll give you something new. Right now, Brexit is the status quo. It is the establishment. It is what we've got and people are going
Hang on a sec, this hasn't got any better. I don't understand. I thought you guys promised that it would all be better. I thought you guys promised that I'd earn more. I thought you guys promised that I'd get better jobs. So actually the status quo at the moment is what we have. Now, I I I'm not saying you could argue that this has happened for a hundred different reasons, the way it was delivered, the way it wasn't delivered, you know, the red lines, all the rest of it, but
Right now, if you're a voter saying, you know, being faced with bre you don't think that Brexit is an insurgent, new radical idea. You think, Oh, blymy, not that again. Right? And it depends whether you whether you respond to not that again by saying Okay, I wanna rip it up or whether you respond to it by saying, Just don't talk to me about it again. Let's hear from Robert Jenrick now. Don't forget, he was right inside the home office for the Conservatives.
¶ Reform's Challenge and Rejoin Realities
during the whole immigration um debacler, and then he hot footed it to reform, or to be fair, uh Kemi Badenok fired him from her party when she found out he was thinking of defecting. And this is him now trying to make the case for reform in Makerfield.
If Andy Burnham wins, he becomes Prime Minister. And he'll let 1.6
Migrants.
Costing us. He'll cram them in HMOs in places like Wigan's.
more next door to me down there, several over there, one or two down there.
And he won't stop the benefits bill from ballooning either. Wants to increase your taxes to pay for it. He supports increasing income tax, inheritance tax, council tax. Tax in Manchester doubled under him. pounds. And even Labour people are saying that this could And the cost of government borrowing is already surging. Andy Burnham hasn't changed. He spent from his 21st to his 45th year He was a researcher, special advisor,
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Health Minister pushed privatizing the NHS and PFI. In Manchester, the police fell into special measures and he tried All drivers. And he kept intervening in national politics. He demanded that men should be allowed into women's spaces and that we Obviously what people in Makerfield want is an open If he wins, Andy Burnham will be a more human Keir Starmer. That won't fix the challenges after. The only good Labour is no Labour. Vote refrain. Real change. Vote reform to get Labour out.
There is well known anti establishment figure, Robert Genrick there.
In a suit, walking round.
Um a man uh chastising um Andy Burnham for risking a Liz Truss style meltdown, a government of course of which he was A member of the A man accusing uh Andy Burnham of being around politics all of his life. Of course Robert Jenrick literally elected in a by election in twenty fourteen when he was in his I think early thirties at that time. So yes, absolutely.
like an absolute firebrand and renegade the likes of which we all love to see. Look, I think that politics right now we we just talk about the politics of Brexit. I think for the Labour Party though, the thing that I'm probably a bit more sceptical even more of is the way in which Brexit for a certain part of the Labour Party does become what it feels like to me is a bit of a kind of get out of jail free card to affect the kind of political change that is clearly deeply necessary, right?
I get the appeal of it. Theoretically it's cheap. We can apply to join the single market. That should yield growth, you know, reasonably quickly. It is absolutely true to say you talk to businesses small and big, they're still feeling the effect.
of the trade barriers, the regulatory barriers, it is significant. I've always said it's like a it's like a puncture in a tire. It's just slowly the air of the economy just slowly sort of going out of what of what you might have had. That said, of course
I think the truth is is that what places like Makerfield and what so much of the country is crying out for and yearning for is genuine policies of economic transformative change. And for the Labour Party to start basically saying, Well, let's reverse back
to the status quo ante as we were in as recently because we didn't properly leave the EU pro you know, sort of the the organs of the EU, the single market and so on properly until twenty twenty one. To to then just say, well, we'll just go back to what that is. That to me reveals a kind of dearth, dearth of thinking. And then practically speaking as well, like let's be real, you know. What would the terms of rejoin be?
They would not almost certainly be the great deal that we had when we left, when we were not in Schengen, when we had a rebate on the budget. when we uh were able to basically opt out of all sorts of things like the Eurozone and home affairs. You know, the EU would probably be looking to lock us in to make sure that we could never leave again.
I think most British people the politics of that would be toxic. People would find it humiliating. And you could absolutely see the prospectus on which Farage or whatever kind of like, you know, beta Farage, you know, Farage two point zero was existing at that time at that time. what they would run on. Moreover, frankly, the EU in our absence this is one of the reasons wh I think we were good for the EU and the EU is good for us. The EU in our absence has gone down a far more protectionist
heavily regulatory direction in the years that we've been gone and we would have to accept all of those things, losing whatever slither of regulatory benefits we've been able to have on new emergent technologies like AI in the interim. So I have to say I just think The more and more I think about it, it feels to me more and more like a dead end for the Labour Party in political and policy terms.
¶ Labour's Leadership, Policy Drive & Burnham's Challenges
I think in in real terms we just don't know what the EU would want to charge us to start with and what would it involve and how many things we'd have to give up. I think that's absolutely right. I suppose what's interesting about this moment though is it feels to me like a flexing of the Labour muscle finally. And it's almost like this party has been
in a position where they were scared of their electorate, they were scared of voters. If you've got an entire party or entire government now who thinks that that was the wrong decision, like where have they been, right? Where have they been for the last six, eight years. And in a way the fact that Web Streeting has fired the starting gun, although he'd probably say he's always said I mean David Lamy said something pretty similar to us
in an interview about three months ago and clearly Andy Burnham was, you know, already onto this a year ago. I think the real question is like, has the lid just been taken off? People being scared to actually talk about things? That they should be talking about and they do care about because
Under what we've had at the moment, there's been this amurta, this kind of like, don't piss anyone off, don't tell them, don't don't try and don't scare them. And actually, this does go back to something more fundamental, which is leadership, right? Do you remember the days when we had a leader who actually told us what they genuinely believed in? They didn't override a democratic mandate, I think, you know, we understand how important a vote is, but tell us what you genuinely believe in.
And and then let people decide whether they're gonna follow you or not. And we haven't we haven't really felt that, I think, for a long time. We've just had this sort of like hush sort of pale hush over the whole question, as if to say, well, you know, don't want to upset anyone, don't you know, let's not upset anyone. Of course we need in industrialisation. I mean, you know
Listening to Lisa and Andy saying Brexit's not gonna solve anything. The problem started way before Brexit with deindustrialization of the North. What's gonna happen when it's AI? Right? What's gonna happen when it's A a thousand times faster and worse and and nobody has a job. Literally nobody because
You know, we found things to replace all of us. Th then you've got something which actually suggests we do need allies, we do need alliances, we do need to know who our friends are, we do need to actually come up with something that is that is gonna pull us all up together, right? I don't know if that's the EU but it But it's certainly about kind of being frank enough to have the conversation, saying we cannot be this alone given what's coming down the tracks.
Well I think if the you know, if the EU were a um a more flexible organisation and you know, there would be a huge prize in getting Britain back um for all sorts of reasons, particularly with how geopolitics has shifted since the Brexit vote. You know, they could let it be known that actually the old offer, the old deal that we had, would still more or less be on the table. And if we w wanted that, you know, why not, given that if we'd voted Romaine that's the deal
Let's have a look. How how like three percent?
I think because I precise but that is what to be honest, that's one of the things that puts me off like actually even opening all of that again because it reminds you that the EU, you know, even if you remain you can acknowledge this.
Deeply stuff.
Formulaic, formulistic, procedural, bureaucratic organisation that, you know, if it had shown a bit more flex to begin with, we'd still be in. If if Merkel had given Cameron just a little bit more, we'd probably still be in. But anyway, it's by the by. I think this is why I think this
this stuff doesn't lead them very far. I think th though that Burnham is gonna end up having to answer more fundamental questions.'Cause right now we're in this weird position where, like I said at the start, everyone's now sort of treating Burnham a bit like You know, this incoming Prime Minister. But obviously he's been off the national stage for a long time, for ten years now. He's not had to answer questions, detailed questions.
He's been doing buses.
Yeah, and very important but like but but yeah, like big questions about tax and spend and fiscal policy and regulatory pol you know, all sorts of stuff just haven't been in his wheelhouse. And I did think that he was asked by ICV's Daniel Hu Hewitt over the weekend about
his position on the fiscal rules and the economy. And I d I do think that actually Brexit got all the attention, but I actually think this is a thing I think Burnham n pretty urgently will start to need to fill in the gaps around if he wants to be a successful Prime Minister. Listen to this.
Ideas that you're talking about. Already you look at the financial market. on Friday are pretty spooked by it. What are you going to do when the markets turn around and say, Whoa, whoa, whoa, we don't like any of this and we have a situation we had with Liz Truss, where the economy starts to falter.
Number one, I have never
Sad.
Or didn't you say we shouldn't be in hockey to the bond markets?
I I I said that politicians had placed Britain in hocke because um of the uh way in which we lost control. yw'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. mae'n cael ei wneud yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl. system. How? How can that be be done?
A little bit woolly, I have to say, in terms of you know, yeah, okay, in hoc. But he will be in hoc because we're in hoc because we borrow loads of money and we're very indebted and you know, fiscal rules, sticking to the fiscal rules, but if so, then the extra investment that he's been talking about, how do you account for that? You know, basically it is a reminder that for all of Kirstarmer's, you know
demerits or or the problems that he may have created for himself. There's a lot of structural things that have inhibited him and his government that would inhibit an Andy Burnham government in exactly the same way. Unless you're gonna change some of the fundamentals, like the fiscal rules. But then of course you've got an eye on the bond markets and how they would react. So again you know,
pattern actually to Andy Burnham in electoral contests like this,'cause he's done two before, um, shifting slightly right on immigration, on borders, on some of these questions, he he tries to position himself more towards the right of yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n
Well and th and this is basically Burnham's sort of like he's got a triangular kind of problem. He has got uh to use up their term, triangulate over the next few weeks. He's got three different audiences he's got an eye on. Make a field which all might pull him in different directions. Make a field. Half an eye on a potential Labour Party leadership contest in case it's not a coronation, and the bond markets. And they're not three easy things to triangulate. It'll be a test to see just
¶ Jess Phillips' Resignation: A Fight for Policy
In a moment we're going to be speaking to one of the ministers that resigned in that tumultuous week last week. It is Jess Phillips and she explains why she went.
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Well joining us now Jess Phillips who was a government minister until last week. And Jess, I want to begin um not with your resignation but specifically with your resignation letter that you wrote to Keir Starmer. And you said I think you're a good man fundamentally who cares about the right things. However, I've seen first hand that that is not enough. The desire to have an argument means we rarely make an argument, leaving opportunities for progress stalled and delayed.
This was all kicked off by something that you wanted to get through parliament and had been working on for a year that didn't happen.
Well didn't happen uh yet. Uh I think is uh where I'm going to uh optimistically leave uh that. But yes, it's all about um child protection online and child sexual abuse online and how there is the complete technological ability. um to stop children from being able to make live streams of uh uh or take naked images of themselves uh and when you have seen what I saw
whilst in my job at the home office. I I mean I have been in chat rooms, uh uh seen conversations that have happened in chat rooms between really uh awful child abusers talking about how easy it is to get girls and boys, but mainly girls, to m make images of themselves and then to use those images to make them do further things. Seeing images such as children like being forced to cut themselves live on uh camera for s the sexual pleasure of somebody paying eight quid in robots.
And you're saying that actually a law could have prevented about ninety percent of this stuff ever getting online. Wha what was stopping the Prime Minister from acting? Wha what what was making that decision hard?
So look look the Prime Minister had come to the conclusion that we should do something in this space. Uh It that took about, I'm gonna say, six, seven months of um uh of asking and pushing. Uh but that they'd come to the point where they were like, We should do something in this space. But the the thing that we were The only place we had got to was the point at which we say we will work with tech companies uh to make this possible. Um and if they don't do it, then we will legislate.
And look, I I I had pragmatically come to the conclusion that that was the best that I was going to get. When you're a government minister, the amount of compromise you have to make all the time is huge.
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uh is uh another thing. But The um the the thing that I think jarred me so much uh in the last week and why I felt like actually you've got to be bold to push the thing that you really, really want. Um also when you've threatened to resign as many times as I have to try and get something that you want, you do have to sometimes go through with the threat for people to believe that it's real. Um that um was listening to a speech
where I was told that we would not only be interested in incremental change and it just didn't ring true to me. And I had a sort of moment of realisation where I had been made to feel grateful for crumbs.
Jess, I remember interviewing you, um, I think it was in December for newsagents and on on the day or or the week of the the publication of the violence against women and girls strategy, and I remember asking you about the Prime Minister's attitude toward this and you said to me that You know, he was completely committed to it, that he'd given you, you know, so much support, so much backing, and yet you're saying now that despite that, which I think is clearly real
¶ Keir Starmer's Leadership: Care vs. Drive
Despite that, it wasn't translating into what it needed to translate into. So what was the problem? What was the problem? What was it him or is it what's around him, the structure? What is it?
I mean it's uh it's potentially a little bit of both, um and you only see the bit of the cur behind the curtain that you actually see. Uh and look. The Prime Minister clearly cares about violence against women and girls and child abuse. There's like you know, it would be crass to say anything else, it it would be untrue. Um but caring about something and then really, really driving uh are two different things. U and like he's got a lot on his plate to drive. I get all of that.
Um but like even just the sort of, you know, we'll have a consultation about social media, which will we'll say, let me tell you now, we'll say that probably about ninety percent of the population will say that yes. Social media is dangerous for the under sixteens. It is a a sort of timidity to be bold enough to go out and make an the argument.
And even at the point when I was talking to you um uh in December, there'd been like weeks of argument about what I was allowed to write down and say in those media interviews. um about this issue of blocking naked images. Uh like you know, that that was
Well I wanted to say that we would legislate. I wanted to say that we would have device level controls to block nudity um with age verification uh and that uh if the tech companies didn't do it we wouldn't legislate no. We would legislate no, that was not what was written in it. Uh and look you you go, okay, I'll fight to the next I'll fight to the next thing.
And to be specific, yes, it was number ten that was stopping you from doing those things.
Um Why? I don't know that that was the Prime Minister. I very much doubt he was involved in those conversations. Um but yeah, there is a timidity but whether it's number ten or other government departments, it certainly wasn't the Home Office. Um and uh under two different home secretaries uh have been very, very keen to get this uh this stuff done. Um but like
Yeah.
You know, it it's sort of in resigning, I I really, really hope that this is the sort of push that sometimes sunshine is the best disinfectant uh and saying these things out loud.
Is the way to push them forward. And that's all that really matters to me is that this happens because not only, let me tell you, look, not only does this have an opportunity for children in the UK, who, by the way, when I met with police officers, um on this subject, the specific undercover child abuse police officers who worked uh under us in my team at the Home Office, funded by us, um, what they said is that the UK has a specific market
Um and I can't hear things like that and accept piecemeal change. But actually if this changes There's no way that if we make our devices do this in the UK, that other countries around the world aren't just gonna go, I'll tell you what, we'll have the s slightly more paedophile friendly face.
¶ Starmer's Leadership, Contest & Open Debate
And Jess, what you've just described there, what you've just described there is disgusting and disturbing. And and I can completely understand why it must have
radicalised you in a sense. On the other hand, do you understand also why, in resigning in the way that you did at the moment that you did, when all of this plotting and coup attempts was going on against the Prime Minister, that you leave yourself open to the accusation that this is simply part of a wider factional putch and not about the substance that you've identified.
People can accuse me of anything they like. Like, you know, that's politics. People will s have accused me of things that aren't true about me, my intellectual
And it wasn't part of anything factional, it wasn't part of a West coordinated with West Streeting. You hadn't discussed it with West Streeting?
I mean absolutely not what it wa it's not that it wasn't somet part of something coordinated. It was part of me. It was actually one of my colleagues who I love and respect who had come out and said what she thought and I thought it was incredibly brave. Um and she said, Well, what are you gonna do? And I just sat back and thought, like, you know, sometimes you you have to be brave.
But I didn't do uh this to uh I I have been told over uh the last year or so that like, you know, I've been convinced to stay in the tent. But when there is a big emotional moment like there was at the local elections and you just want to hear that someone gets it, and what you hear is a promise of not having incremental change when your experience has been exactly that.
It just uh it's just a perfect storm, I suppose. Like I say, uh the Home Office they had made me a mug that said I didn't quit my job today because I would like be in a rage quite regularly.
So Jess, j just y you've said you only ever see your own bit of the curtain, but just the read across, do you think Kirstarmer is not a Prime Minister who fundamentally can get stuff done?
Um well that that is that that has been uh but my experience, but I I also don't think it's as simple as that,'cause I think that the Labour government has done some incredible things. uh absolutely incredible things that it has got literally zero credit for. Um like uh you know, there there are eight thousand households in my constituency who with children who are no longer as poor as they were when the Labour government came to power and I represent an area
Okay, so let me just let me just ask something in that then. He does stuff, but he cannot carry his own message or story. Or that he doesn't do enough anyway.
But that so so but I mean that example I gave actually was something that was largely fought for by uh people in the parliamentary Labour Party. Um it has to be said. But so m
I I don't think that Keir Starmer is incapable of doing good things. I think he is a good man. What I think uh that his government has so far uh represented to me is uh one without uh domestically certainly, the drive to really go out and say who it is and be willing to upset some people uh and then stick with it in making arguments and really drive things through.
And in your opinion now, for better or for worse, w we are in the middle of what feels like a a leadership campaign of sorts now. D do you think that he should just basically go earlier and let a battle take place because you're basically saying, We've tried this and it hasn't worked, it's not working or as some are suggesting, you know, let Burnham fight it out, let him have his sort of grace period.
People are saying that he could still win against anyone else in the leadership race except for Burnham and and let him win it if he if he can win it and stay on.
Um, look I I I think it probably would have been better if um i if uh uh a timetable had been put out for uh uh and we didn't have to have a sort of bloodletting and then there was just a competition on those terms. rather than like having a fight. But like this is politics. You don't get what you want. There's no clean solutions. Um
And politics this week, Jess, is just taking us right back, um, to old, you know, twenty sixteen. Um, the good old days of the Brexit fight. Y you're I mean, whether we want to or not, we're now being drawn into a position where where Streeting's basically saying, Well, you know, this is what most of the Labour Party probably want, this is what most Labour voters probably want. And Andy Burnham saying, Not now. I mean w where are you? Do you think Wes was right to go?
Look, I I think that w you can't say that in um in politics you wish that people would make arguments even uh if they uh might, you know, break those eggs to make those omelets, if then you criticise people for then making an argument.
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I I I think it would just become the elephant in the room and actually for most people who who really care about this issue and let me tell you, it it doesn't come up on the doors. Very u I'd be lying if I said everybody wanted to chat Brexit again. And if I was honest, the idea of going back to it is uh sort of slightly harrowing. Um but um the the the argument uh uh on in in his big reset Monday speech.
was a little bit to annoy people from both sides. If you don't like Brexit you wouldn't have liked what he said. If you do like Brexit, you wouldn't have liked what he said. I think that you just need to start being clear. But that's the kind of like you know, like That that is the person who I am. Yeah. Luckily it's not me who's gonna have this argument.
Do you think just that assuming there is a competition or contest, um or assuming Andy Burnham wins um in Makerfield, do you there is talk of a coronation? Do you think that would be a bad idea or a good idea, or do you think there ought to be a contest?
I I I mean I'd prefer it if there was a contest, um, because actually one of the things I would say is that I and the Parliamentary Labour Party uh would definitely uh have said this uh now and and before is the sense listening to voices to make sure that we're going in the right direction hasn't always felt like it was completely forthcoming. So I think that that is a good opportunity. Um but like, you know, we will get what we will get. Um
I would prefer it if there was a competition. I'm used to being disappointed there.
¶ Andy Burnham's Running Shorts & Social Media
Just just for clarity, um c you didn't tell West Street in before you resigned, is that is that right?
No, I did I did tell him. I told some others as well.
Jess Phillips. Thanks very much. Thank you. Thanks.
🎵 Music
It is possible, but only with big changes. to the way this country is run, and that's what I want to talk about today. As you've probably worked out I think you know where I'm going now, don't you? Bakerfield is no ordinary by election. I'm getting plenty of advice about what I should do, the main piece being for God's sake, get some new running shorts. If you've got any, Brendan, uh send them my way.
So there have been some weird sort of online sort of conspiracy moments over the e well, the last week, let alone the last sort of year or whatever it happens to be. I have to say one of the weirdest has been this kind of like Andy Burnham short truther movement that we've seen.
Well short, short, truth.
Yeah, exactly. Like um like basically Andy Burnham uh managed to do uh something that has eluded quite a few well, his his current leader and pull off a quite successful photo op. Over the course of the weekend where he went running seemingly along a motorway. A little bit weird, although I have interviewed him outside his house, so I can confirm that he does live very close to a motorway, so I think it seems reasonably authentic. But anyway, this has started a whole kind of
movement online speculating that he can't possibly really ever go running, partly because he would never actually go running next to a motorway, and no way would he ever go running in shorts or short as that. And they were short shorts, I will have to say.
You do have to spare a thought for politicians and their running routines because there is no getting away from the fact that if you run, then everyone goes, He's running with a big pun attacked. And also that everyone is immediately commenting about whether you're too fat to run, in which case you clearly never ran before, so you're just doing it for the cameras.
or whether you are showing off because you are so fit and you run the whole time. I've I've watched a number of our Prime Ministers actually running with their security n team through St James's, you know, it's the one closest to Ten Downing Street. And there is always this awful moment where you see this the kind of the security detail And they're clearly much fitter than the PM and they sort of have got to try really hard not to overtake
that level of fitness that the PM is currently showing for fear of humiliating them on their run. So I think it's just another really good reason why nobody normal ever wants to actually become Prime Minister.
It has been a good opportunity to show um though that he does have some good social media game, Andy Burnham. He has been sort of like I mean I assume when he's Prime Minister, assuming he becomes Prime Minister, he's not gonna have time to do this, but he has been correcting people. Actually tweeting them back, correcting them about the routes on his runs and how qu frequently he goes on runs.
Again, I wouldn't be doing that if you were in in a sort of fairly visible role, maybe demo. Strava for you, Andy, for a week or two.
also retweeting some abuse of Andrew Neal, I happen to know, but you know, people can go and have a look at that if they want. Um do you remember actually it made me think of that you know that ill fated I think my favourite ever Newsnight series was the one The idea that some ill begotten editor had of you going running with politicians. Was it your idea?
And I'll tell you why it was me and Moody, my dog. You can check, they are still online with party leaders. It was very funny because and I'll tell you why it started. Because our darling editor at the time, Ian Katz, said, I think you should float into constituencies in a hot air balloon and I had to say, Ian, I'm not sure how well that would go down with either the electorate or the taxpayer. I mean in any Specific place or generally
It would not have gone down well. So I said, Why don't you let me go running with party leaders and Moody? And um the weirdest one I did Go on. Jim Murphy. Who is A three times taller than me and B traditionally runs he told me between two and three in the morning.
Well, Andy Burnham, if you're listening, and you do fancy a new running companion. Shorts even shorter than yours.
Not sure the whip it's up for it though.
No.
He's a fourteen year old dog now.
We'll be back tomorrow, running it all. We'll see you then. Bye for now.
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