Does Trump want to topple Iran’s government?

The News Agents podcast is brought to you by HSBC UK, opening up a world of opportunity. This is a Global Player original podcast. So this mission was a very precise mission. It had three objectives, three nuclear sites. It was not attack on Iran. It was not an attack on the Iranian people. This wasn't a regime change move. Our view has been very clear.

that we don't want a regime change. We do not want to protract this or build this out any more than it's already been built out. We want to end their nuclear program, and then we want to talk to the Iranians about a long-term settlement here. and has not been about regime change. That was the three musketeers, the Defence Secretary, the Secretary of State and the Vice President, all stating regime change is not the policy. Except that...

Someone seems to have taken a different view. Yeah. Overnight, President Trump has suggested that, although it might not be politically correct, his phrase, regime change could make Iran great again. Is this an off-the-cuff remark we should take with a pinch of salt? Or is he basically setting out to overhaul Iran? Welcome to the News Agents. The News Agents. It's John. It's Emily. And once again, Donald Trump makes it so difficult to work with because you all agreed a line. It's all settled.

This isn't about regime change. It's just about targeting Iran's nuclear ambitions. And then Donald Trump comes out and flatly contradicts the agreed line. And that gives echoes of stuff.

of 2003 the invasion of iraq when there was regime change very firmly in sight and the never-ending wars which donald trump was supposedly against so it complicates the picture in the middle east And it complicates the feelings of those who support MAGA in America thinking, has Donald Trump gone rogue and gone back on everything he stood for? Yeah, what it essentially allows America and Israel to do now. is create the space to keep bombing.

I mean, we saw what happened on Saturday night. We know about the six, you know, bunker buster bombs that were trying to bore down 80 metres in each of those three nuclear facility sites. They sent in the first ones. They then followed up with the second one. picture's becoming clearer. Trump called it a monumental success. Obliteration. Obliteration and the damage was done. But if that was only the beginning of things...

then what he has now done is lift the lid on what could come next. And this morning, and I should say that we're recording this at one o'clock, we have seen pictures from Evin Prison of the damage that Israeli... strikes have done now there are a lot of Iranians who will not lose sleep

over the bombing of Evin Prison, which has been housing, you know, political prisoners and been taking sort of hostages. And it was where our own Nazneen Zagari Ratcliffe spent many years. There will be a lot of... I imagine jubilation about the idea that this place of torture and horror has been sort of bombed to smithereens. But if you're just looking for enriched uranium, it won't be in or around Evin Prison.

In other words, the Israelis, the Israeli state has clearly already augmented what this whole mission is about. And with Donald Trump's suggestion that they want to make Iran great again, are they basically saying, well, we could bomb a bit more of Tehran. We could go further afield than... the nuclear sites or the military sites, I think this...

This gets us into, as you would say, the never wars, right? The always wars, in other words, the wars that are starting to be fought with no clear objective in sight. So, you know, again, how seriously do you take what Donald Trump posted about... regime change may make iran great again is it a manifesto right we're going to go further

I don't think so. I think he just says things. I think he says things. He puts it out there. He doesn't measure what the consequences of it will be or what the reaction will be.

Donald Trump posts a lot of stuff that contradicts something else. But you talked about a key point of there about the enhanced uranium. Do anyone think that the enhanced uranium...

has been taken out by these strikes. I was reading the New York Times reporting this morning that the total stock of enhanced uranium... that iran had could be put in the boots of about 12 cars and drive around it's probably already been removed so the idea these facilities might have been destroyed but the knowledge of how to build

These things has not been destroyed. That's in the brains of various people. And the uranium is probably still there. So in that sense, has the threat disappeared? It may have disappeared in the short term.

But has anything fundamentally changed is a much, much bigger question. Yeah. I mean, I was in a briefing with Israeli officials on Friday and... Two things really leapt off the page there. When we were asking about the Iranian enrichment programme, and whether it was really, you know, at existential threat level, were they about to strike? What we were told was it was the speed at which things had started to happen that was scary for them. So the Israelis said...

Government officials said that three months ago they'd accumulated enough enriched uranium for six bombs, weapon grade level. It doesn't mean they have the bombs. It means they now have enough of the stuff to make them more quickly into bombs if they need them. said that the last three months alone, whilst they were actually negotiating with America at the table, they had made enough for three more. In other words, the time period that has elapsed between them having enough for six...

and enough for three, is massively diminished, which to your point says they're getting quicker at doing this. That, I have to say, goes back to what the Israeli government has been saying, not what we're hearing from Iran. Iran has said that they are making stuff, they are enriching stuff.

stuff now that they might need as a deterrent right so it depends where you start the conversation the other thing that we were asking about was how israel was viewing these attacks whether regime change was part of their end goal

And this official said, I don't think it's a secret that we're not fund of the Islamic Republic regime. Having said that, the goals of the operation are getting rid of the existential threat, the nuclear project, and they said the ballistic project. But if tomorrow morning the regime in Iran collapses...

I don't think many tears will be shed in other places as well around the region. But the purposes of this operation are very clear. In other words, this is not what we're going after, but they would like the fall of the regime to be the collateral.

that happens alongside. And I guess this is why they're talking to Iranian people at the same time. They are trying to have a conversation with citizens of Iran, whilst they're actually bombing their houses in Tehran, to say... This could be your opportunity. We are weakening your government so that it can be overthrown, which begs another question. Is Iran at the moment a bigger threat? Because, you know, they might have nuclear bombs. Or is it a really weak threat, which is why we're...

We're hitting it now. So I think there was a very, very tangled message coming out right now of Israel and the US in terms of whether they're hitting Iran because it's stronger or weaker. Well, I think they're hitting Iran because it's weaker. And I think that America went when it did was because... frankly, Israel had taken out their air defences so the B-2 bombers could fly from Missouri or wherever it was they came from.

without real chance of intervention. But the question is, is it one and done? And that's the big question that America would love this to be the case, that they feel they've done enough and that there is no more to do. But, you know, we're seeing. You know, you talk about the various different threats that are being posed and what the Israelis assess the threat to be. I mean, the one thing that isn't going to happen, and I go back to 2003 and the invasion of Iraq.

You know, anyone who dreams that what will happen is that the Mullers will fall and the next day there'll be this lovely liberal democratic government, which will be really Western friendly and they will be an open democracy. Probably sort of Tim Farron or Ed Davey. And people thought that about Iraq in 2000.

And look what the hell happened then when there was no planning for what came next. I mean, you don't de-Barthification of the Iraqi army. And suddenly you have got civil war between the Kurds, between the Shia Muslims, between the Sunni Muslims. And that still reverberates today, 22 years on from that. So, you know, it may be that they wish that it's one and done. What happens if... Iran shuts or mines the Strait of Hormuz through which 20% of the world oil

flows and a lot of the gas from Qatar flows. What happens then? Apparently CNBC reporting that America has asked China to intervene because China obviously buys a lot of Iranian oil. Don't let them do that. What happens if, as other people are reporting... that militia groups are going to attack American interests in Iraq and other places, you know, and go up. What happens then? Does America have to retaliate again? And this is where it's easy to start something. And action is simple.

which is what America did on Saturday night. But there will be a reaction. And then what does America do with that?

Yeah, I guess if you're Trump, you're remembering that he acted in his first term very successfully to take out Qasem Soleimani and it didn't actually have. many repercussions for America. So he does think that he can sort of slide in and slide out. We're already hearing, at least the New York Times is reporting, of credible threats. to US forces bases around the region in Qatar, in Lebanon and further afield. And there is also, I think...

a more real possibility that it's not the Iranian state or the Iranian regime that responds. But as we know, Iran sponsors a lot of terror groups around the world. You know, we talk about them being...

But they're not dead. They're not completely out of... existence or operation now what happens if the rogue operators just take things into their own hands and decide where they want to attack now because they're trying to please the regime because they're trying to remind the world that actually they've still got

unfinished business with america well it's worth listening to this guy ebrahim zolfakari who is a spokesperson for the central military headquarters in tehran and this is what he had to say about what trump is doing inshallah gambler trump you can start this war but we will be the ones who end it

gambler trump gambler trump you may start this war we'll be the ones that end it and that's the threat and that's the bit of unknown that you know i'm sure when they sat in the situation room and donald trump said go yeah for the well apparently he was on Marine One.

Because of the length of time it takes to fly from Missouri, the Pentagon had to get the OK on a phone call in Marine One when he was choppering from one place to another. Yeah, it's all that the whole sequence of events is now becoming much clearer. because we were all told that there was going to be this two-week pause. It is now, according to reporting in The Atlantic and other places, becoming much clearer that Trump had actually signed this off with his counterparts on Wednesday night.

before he said, oh, we're going to have a two-week pause. He signed it off on Wednesday night. He knew he was going to act by Wednesday night. He then realised that he needed an element of surprise, not least because he himself had basically...

pretty much told the press what was going on in his head. You know, he does have this bizarre and slightly disarming habit of sort of saying... Well, the transparency is extraordinary. It's ridiculous, right? So at some point, he does his own hooty PC WhatsApp signal chat, you know. to himself to the whole world and then realises that he's got a row back so the whole two weeks

puts us on the back foot, puts presumably Iran, his targets, on the back foot. But he had already signed off on Wednesday night what was going to happen. And then he suddenly realises that it is an 18-hour trip to get the US planes where he needs them. I think you were saying this yesterday, that he hasn't used...

the Diego Garcia base, which is clearly much closer. And I was speaking to somebody close to the PM to Starmer today. He was trying to work out whether... there had actually been a direct request. He suggested to me there may have even been a direct request from Keir Starmer. We're not going to stop you, but please don't start by using that base. Starmer will have been told.

Just ahead of time, not many hours ahead of time, but ahead of time. And we don't know whether there was in all his supplication to de-escalate, de-escalate, de-escalate. What he did get across was. Just don't put us in the position of using the Diego Garcia base that is a shared base with the UK. We have said repeatedly on this podcast over the first year of this Labour government that Starmer is ultimately a lawyer first and politician.

Second, the question of the legality of what America has done is really awkward. And I thought David Lammy, the Foreign Secretary this morning.

was really unconvincing saying well it's not you know we haven't taken legal advice on it because we're not doing it well hang on yeah but you did have a view on whether russia's invasion of ukraine was legal or not why haven't you got a view on this and the fact of the matter is that I suspect had there been a formal request by the US to use Diego Garcia, it would have been a really difficult one for Herma, the Attorney General, and for Starmer.

And would they have dared to say no to America? Would they have dared to say yes to America? Look, the British government... Don't ask, don't ask, and then we won't have to. The British government are deeply uncomfortable, but... By God, are they relieved that they haven't been put in that position. I have to say, if you are a student of history and you want to understand a little bit more about what is going on in Keir Starmer's head, you could do worse than go back to a piece that he wrote.

For The Guardian in 2003, 23 years ago, on the eve of the Iraq War, when he was, he wasn't a politician, he was a human rights lawyer. And what he does is he takes you through the legality. And it's really worth it. having a little read because he writes just in a very scholarly, loyally way.

But what he does, and this is obviously he's talking about the future Iraq war, which we then went into. There is one line which jumped out at me, and it's where he writes, the mere fact that Iraq has a capacity to attack at some unspecified... time in the future is not.

enough. In other words, it's all very well talking about, you know, if you apply it to now, uranium enrichment programmes, all things speeding up, all them having capacity, all them growing something that they've said they weren't growing, but it is not. in legal terms, enough to make it a legitimate line of attack. If you are trying to work out what Keir Starmer is thinking now, I wonder whether fundamentally...

The lawyer in him has changed his mind. I mean, there are people close to him who, when you ask if he thinks it's legal or not, will say, Keir Starmer... has a cool, clear head. And that's exactly what we need right now. In other words, he's pretty much told those around him exactly what he thinks.

But he's just not he's not going to run into the fray and start screaming at Donald Trump. Look, exactly that. We know what Keir Starmer probably thinks intellectually about it. And we know that politically he's recognised that there's no way he can kind of fall out with America on a big way.

say he'll back it as we heard yesterday from Lammy and others he can't ever he can't ever say he'll back it he just has to talk about Iran just has to talk about Richmond and say Richmond of uranium in Iran's not a great thing and as long as he keeps diverting every question

can't allow iran to have a nuclear bomb we can't allow which is not which is not the answer to the question you're asking exactly exactly and that is the line that they are going to stick to but the whole question of legality and again

Let's go back to where we started, which is about Donald Trump saying regime change. No, I don't think you can make a case for that in international law for Donald Trump to say, yeah, we want to take out Khamenei. You can't do it. But I think, and that is, I suppose, the one place that Israel and America is at odds. But, I mean, going back to my Israeli official...

I'm now thinking back to what we were told on Friday. In other words, just before the American attack. And what we were trying to gather was whether... America had greenlit this. Had they given Israel sign-off to do whatever they wanted? And the words that were used were very supportive. They just kept on coming back to very supportive. In the light of what we now know, it feels almost certain that America would have said to Israel, you go ahead, do what you have to do. Don't knock out.

Because we might need him at the negotiating table. We still want to carry on negotiating. But do whatever you want to do. And Israel clearly took that as the green light, whether it was given or not. Israel took it as the green light, that they were not going to upset America with whatever they did next. And indeed, we then saw Netanyahu presumably pile the pressure on Trump, easily flattered, come to the table. This can be your war too.

I think one of the things that I think that has been the most un-Trumpian, and we've talked about how Trump said there'll be a two week pause for diplomatic talks to take place or whatever. And then 48 hours later, the B2s are in the air. is that actually none of it leaked and the secrecy maintained.

prior to the attack was exceptional. Well, that's because Pete Hegseth was still being told that, you know, nothing was going on. Yeah, well, quite possibly. I mean, it's being stressed that this was a White House decision, not a Pentagon decision. Now, obviously, all...

military action like that. The Pentagon couldn't launch its own operation without sign off from the president. But I think the president was very much in control for this. For once, there wasn't a leak. There wasn't someone blabbing about it.

Trump wasn't speaking out loud just moments before it happened. It did happen and people woke up the next morning on Sunday morning and thought, blimey. The subplot to this, and one that's not irrelevant, is what is going on. in Trump's own party in Maga land right now. And just to get into that, we're going to play you a clip of Trump at his own inauguration, which was Chex Notes not that long ago.

Like in 2017, we will again build the strongest military the world has ever seen. We will measure our success not only by the battles we win, but also by the wars that we end and perhaps most importantly, the wars we never get into. So on January the 20th... Trump was basically thinking about Ukraine and Putin and how he would be the person to end the Ukraine war that he says he would never have got America into.

on day one. Six months later, what's happened? Putin looks stronger than ever. Ukraine looks more vulnerable than ever. He's already shouted down Zelensky as a dictator, and he's now bombed Iran, which he was never thinking of doing. when he stood on the steps six months ago. And what I always find fascinating is the contortions of those around him.

i.e. the MAGA base, because we have heard, you know, we played a bit of Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson. We've heard from Steve Bannon. We've heard from the people who fundamentally disagree that America should be in any new wars. I mean Steve Bannon

you know, bizarrely. He was in the Navy. He was in the American military. And so he comes from a place of saying, never again. We don't want to see America spend money on foreign wars. We don't want to be involved. We don't want to see more bodies, more men and women lost, which was, of course, what Trump... got elected on but now if you ask those around him like well surely you must condemn this they're already starting the wriggle

And there are already some say, well, that's not a war. You know, he's just doing what five American presidents in a row have promised to do, which is defang Iran. No, a war would be if you put boots on the ground. And as ever, Trump himself, I don't think. is actually as interesting as the reaction...

of others to him. That's what you want to be looking at. And he's already somehow managed to disassociate what he's doing in Iran with what looks like a foreign war. This isn't a foreign war because we're not sending in troops. They're okay with this at the moment. It's not splitting the base because... They've made their peace with however Trump concocted this particular line of attack. So I thought J.D. Vance yesterday, who is clearly a really bright man.

trying to argue why what Trump was doing was different from previous presidents' interventions in the Middle East. And the argument goes, well, because it's Donald Trump. And Donald Trump is different from all of them. So the fact that he's got into an entanglement in the Middle East makes it quantitatively different.

From previous ones. Hang on. Take me through the logic of that again. Sorry, JD. Not sure I'm quite with you right now. Because if you're saying that it is an entanglement, it's an entanglement. And you've done what you said. You wouldn't even do. I mean, we talked about it a moment ago, Emily. You raised the extraordinary transparency of Donald Trump, that he just says what he's thinking. It may contradict something he'd said 10 minutes ago, but it doesn't matter.

It was when he was asked about the views of Tulsi Gabbard, his director of national intelligence, the person...

who is in charge of assessing how close Iran is to a nuclear bomb. And she says, well, I don't think Iran is very close. Donald Trump was asked about what his own DNI... had said what intelligence do you have that iran is building a nuclear weapon your intelligence community has said they have no evidence that they are at this point well then my intelligence community is wrong who in the intelligence community said that your director of national intelligence tulsi gabbard

She's wrong. Oh my God, that's brutal. I mean, that is brutal. And Tulsi Gabbard in response has said, oh, the media misinterpreted me. The disinformation media, whatever, you know, kind of misinterpreted me. She actually made that assessment to Congress. And yet somehow it was the media's fault. I mean, talking about Congress.

and maybe just a note to end on. The Speaker, Mike Johnson, is another one who's going through all sorts of contortions today. He's posted, the President made the right call and did what he needed to do. Leaders in Congress were aware of the urgency and evaluate the... There is a great big question mark over... his whole tweet, which is like...

Why do we need you? You're meant to be leading Congress. You didn't call them together. You didn't enact anything that looked like a vote. You didn't even get a sense of what Congress would think or say about it. You have basically defanged yourselves here.

Basically, put yourselves out of a job because you've just agreed with whatever Trump wanted to do. Look, if you want to succeed in Trump's circle in politics, let's talk the language of gymnastics. It's good if you can do a handspring, but more important that you know how to do a back. Absolutely. And that's the key to success. In a moment, we're going to talk to an Iranian journalist. She left the country when she was 12. Her father was tortured in the infamous Evan prison.

And she's talking about the complex emotions that Iranians are feeling right now, delighted that the regime is under attack, but hating the bombing of their own country. I'm a creator. Ideas hit fast. I have to keep up. I'm a gamer. If I'm lagging, I'm losing. I'm a student. Cramming's my cardio. I own my business. I run numbers and the room.

Only Lenovo lets you build a PC that fits your grind. Choose the power, memory, storage and graphics at lenovo.com slash customize because only you know what you need and you won't find it better anywhere else. Get free shipping at lenovo.com slash customize. This is The News Agents.

We're joined now by an Iranian broadcaster, TV journalist, Zahar Zand. And Zahar, it's great that we've got you in here because I think what we're missing from this conversation so far... is what ordinary, normal Iranians are doing and thinking and feeling right now as...

their country is being bombed? Sure. I mean, that's a huge complex question because Iran is a huge country and anything I tell you is more anecdotal from my own experience. Of course, I'm in touch with lots of people across Iran. I've been covering the protests there, the political...

uprising there for the past few years. So I have a good understanding of what many people from different areas in Iran, different age groups are sort of thinking. And I'm really glad that you guys are actually covering this because I think the Western media has unfortunately been a bit reductive by trying to make this a bit black and white because i've seen a lot of articles saying iranians are so happy that the regime is that iran is being hit you know the reality is a lot more

complex and that is a lot more nuanced. Iranians are deeply patriotic people. They love their country. And perhaps this is because of all the oppression, all the issues they've had over the years. It's united them. And over the past

few years with all of the protests Iranians have come together even more so they are very much without exception very upset very fearful that their soil is being attacked that their infrastructure is being attacked that these public properties but at the same time a lot of them admit

that despite their best effort, they couldn't get rid of the Islamic Republic, the regime, which they see as their common enemy. And they think that perhaps this could be it and that this is perhaps a price they have to pay. So Iranians are... stuck in this sort of weird

bizarre ambivalence ambivalence and they are kind of like stuck between being deeply patriotic and also wanting this regime gone and one thing they want the world to know every time I speak to every single one of them like would you want the world I'm writing about this, I'm talking about this. They all say, please make sure the world knows this is not our war. This is not a war between Israel, America and us. It's a war between Iranian regime, the Mullahs.

and these countries. It's got nothing to do with us. And we are the ones that essentially are having to pay the price. It's quite interesting, isn't it? Because Israel is trying to frame this as exactly that, that they support the Iranian people.

were on the side of the Iranian people. They're just against the mullahs. Yeah, Netanyahu doing those speeches where he talks above the head of the regime and straight to the Iranian people. He's clearly been trying to make this message. Yeah, I mean, that's very smart. And it's speaking to a lot of people. especially parts of the opposition that want Reza Pahlavi, the crown prince, to come in because he has close alignments with the Israeli regime.

even though israel is trying to frame this as we're doing this as a favor to iranian people israel's or any country any good government's royalty should not be with any other people or country. It's with their own people. In the meantime, if they are also freeing Iranian people of this regime, then good.

I'm sure you guys are aware that negotiations, the talks between Israel and the US right now is whether or not to hit Khamenei. I mean, Israel has always wanted to get rid of the Iranian regime, but...

the US doesn't want them to, right? And Israel is constantly pushing that. And by bringing in this human rights rhetoric, oh, we want to save Iranian people, it's only pushing their own agenda. They're not doing this for the Iranian people. If they do... get rid of the regime great it would be a good outcome for everyone but they're not doing this for the iran regime they're doing this for their own people for their own gains we saw pictures this morning of

Israel bombing of the Evin prison, the place that, I mean, famously for British people, Nazanin Zagari Ratcliffe was for so long. And the Israelis are presumably using these attacks to try and free... political prisoners, free people that they would say shouldn't be imprisoned at all. But I'm wondering what the response now of the Iranian regime will be to this kind of activity, which has clearly nothing to do...

with the nuclear enrichment program, nothing to do with those particular sites and everything to do with a sort of wider philosophy about what Iran should or shouldn't be doing. Do you think that we're going to see...

The government of Iran now coming down much harder on opposition. I mean, there have been. And before I answer that question, can I just make a comment about what's happening in Evin prison? So Evin has been attacked. And I was getting reports just on my way here from my sources inside Iran that the...

Prison has actually shut down the clinic inside the prison. And a lot of the prisoners have actually been injured, but they have nowhere to go or any way of getting treated. And we're not really getting much report from inside. The reports we've been getting is from prisoners calling their family. outside who are really worried and the families are all rushing to have imprisoned. This is another example of the Islamic Republic, of this regime, not caring for the lives of people.

right they don't care they have been beating the drums of the war for decades without putting any protection for its people in place right now iranian cities are getting attacked are getting airstrikes can you believe that there are no sirens to warn them there are no bunkers for them to hide in they have no protection in place and iranians are

relying on social media to get any warnings from the Israeli government or from the activists outside of Iran or satellite channels to warn them about the places of these attacks. Iran because they want to suppress any flicker of dissent any spark of any dissent they shut down the internet for two days at best it shows that they don't care about the people's lives at worst it actually

shows that Iran might want people to die, might want more casualties to actually then point their finger off human rights abusers against the attackers. And they have often been using Gaza and the atrocities and the human rights. rights abusers in Gaza to basically try to counter what's happening from Israel. You're saying that the regime itself, the government of Iran itself, would like to see higher casualties to make their own points? I'm saying at worst, yes. At best, they don't care.

Look at what they're doing, the fact that they don't have any measures in place to protect the civilians. There are no sirens, there are no bunkers, even though they've been inviting war for years. What does that tell you? And for them to cut people off the only form of warning system they have for two...

days what does that tell you it really shows Iranians that the regime's priorities during the nationwide protest or times before that right Islamic Republic has always said this is an Islamic country we want an Islamic nation They always refer to the Iranians as Muslims, right? They never say Iran. They never say Iranians, right?

But now that this attack has happened, suddenly their rhetoric's changed on whether the accounts they share on social media or on their state TV, which is a huge propaganda machine. They are constantly talking about nationalism, reinforcing that, right? On the one hand, that's happening. On the other, they are trying to arrange all of these anti-war protests. So they are trying to unite people. Iranians don't want this regime anymore.

Now that the regime has weakened, there has been movements on social media initially about perhaps using this opportunity whilst the regime is weak, whilst the world is again paying attention to Iran and Iranians to actually...

come out and speak out and perhaps try to topple the regime themselves. Because Iranians want this regime gone, but they want to get rid of it themselves. They don't want a Western enemy to come in. And the Iranian regime knows this. And they have been trying to crack down on any flicker before it gets big.

What are they doing? Their rate of the people that are arresting has increased. In the past 10 days since the war began, they have executed three people based on national and political charges. And we know that in Iran, there is no fair...

trial right and the last person that was killed he was killed based on honestly like it's laughable his charges but essentially he was accused of spying for the israeli regime they are stopping people on the street they're searching people they're searching cars and they're really trying to create

anything that this the system of fear that they've been ruling iran and been keeping onto power to stop any flicker of descent so take me through what you think is happening here is this the last vestiges of a regime that is rotten and is trying to maintain control or does it say to you that you know there may not be messages about which bunker to go to but there are still messages going out telling women to wear a hijab I don't know whether it's a sign of the weakness.

or the residual strength of the regime that this is happening now? And I'd just be interested in your assessment of it. I mean, these attacks has demonstrated the weaknesses of the Iranian regime, even their nationwide protests, even though they managed to oppress it. through killing hundreds of Iranians and executing many and imprisoning thousands. We have been seeing the weaknesses of this regime, right? So they are weak. What's going to happen next? No one knows. You've been reporting for...

Yes, I've reported from Syria, I've reported from Afghanistan and Iraq. And as history has shown us over and over again, you know, that old cliche, you don't know that a dictatorship is going to fail until the last five minutes. What was that saying? Something like that.

Iran is very close. And we said that before. This is not the first time when we're at the edge of our seats, like crossing our fingers, thinking this is it, this is it. We don't know. You've been there since 2009. I mean, earlier. Exactly. But we've seen you come very close to the point where we thought it was going to fall. But... The difference is these uprisings have been going on for years, as you said, 2009. Each time they happen, though, they're bigger.

And they're happening more and more frequently in different forms, whether it's this war, whether it's protests, whether they keep happening and their frequency and their strengths are becoming stronger and stronger.

We are hopeful as Iranian people, we're hopeful that this is it. But who knows? This is a regime that was born out of a populist revolution. This is a regime that was strengthened during the Iran-Iraq war during that eight years. So the whole system is built. in a way to ensure that they don't fall in the same way that they toppled the other regime. So that's so interesting. So if self-preservation is all that matters, can the regime...

use the bombing by Israel and latterly America to say, look at our enemies. We've got to unite as Iranian people against those who would do us down. Which is exactly what they're doing. And is it effective or do you think that the people have had enough? No, it's not effective at all. I mean, even though they have the anti-war protests and the majority of Iranians do not want war, Iranians...

The ones that have been taking part in these pro-regime, organized by the regime protests against the war, a lot of Iranians who are against the war have been refusing. And publicly speaking about not wanting to go on social media, refusing to take part in these protests because they do not want to be seen to be a part of this regime. The message is clear. It's complex. One thing that Iranians are very frustrated by is that the world is trying to

Paint the situation, the binary in black and white. It's not binary. It's a huge grey area. And you need to really be able to explore that greyness to be able to understand the...

and the issues that Iranian people are... You've really brought that home. Let me just ask you this. I got sent to the Gulf in 2003, the invasion of Iraq. It led to the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. But then you saw the country split apart. What do you think happens if the regime does fall? There is a fear that many Iranians are sharing. Even after the 1979 revolution in Iran, there was a brief civil war because of the amount of things that happened. And then the Iran-Iraq war.

that shortly followed. we kind of forget. There was a civil war going on in Iran between different ethnic minorities. And, you know, we had communists, we had Mujahideen al-Khalq, we had Islamic... Just to remind people who've forgotten, in 1979, the Shah was toppled, he fled, and this is when the hard line...

the religious leaders came in. But you're talking about that bit in between where there is essentially a power vacuum. Exactly. So there was, because Khomeini came to Iran so swiftly, the power vacuum wasn't... Didn't go on for so long. And he was supposed to be there for only a short period until a proper democratic government is formed, which is hilarious because that never happened. Initially, they started killing thousands.

of political oppositions or anyone who was a part of any other group that also took part in the Islamic Republic. That's why so many Iranians came to the UK and America in 79. Those are the ones that could. Of course. You have to remember. The wealthy ones. Something that people...

People always forget, they're like, oh, well, the Iranians did a revolution in the 70s and they brought this government. No. communists came together, socialists came together, different political sanctions came together, people who wanted democracy came together, but then through series of foreign interference. Britain involved, CIA involved. Khomeini actually came and took that place. And he was supposed to be temporary. But because they started killing...

any opposition that there was. And then the Iran-Iraq war happened shortly after. And Khomeini himself said, and this is, I think, so important to remember this at this time. Khomeini said... This war has been a blessing. Without this war, we wouldn't have stayed here. Because people who did the revolution, they wouldn't have allowed this autocracy, this dictatorship to continue this long. But Iranians had to unite.

But Iranians have also learned from Iran-Iraq war. The regime has, but so have Iranians. They know that they united to defend their soil, but in turn, they also defended the Islamic Republic. They're not willing to do that anymore this time.

Zahar, just before we lose you, we haven't talked about, presumably you have family, you have friends. We've seen the pictures of Tehran now where there is smoke coming from a lot of residential blocks, buildings, people. Sorry, I can see you. Yeah, this is really hard for you. And I understand that. I guess my question is, how are those you love doing? And presumably the worse this gets, the more...

people will start forming a wall against whatever is happening from the outside. I mean, that becomes a stronger... I don't know. I mean, do you think so? Because... If you don't have oxygen, you don't think about water. If you don't have water, you don't think about food. You need your primary things in order to think about more long-term things, right? If Iranians are hungry, if they are fearing their lies, if their morale is low because they don't...

You don't think about the future of your country. Don't think about the politics. You think about your survival and the survival of your family. So that's what's happening right now. I left Iran when I was 11 years old. We were political refugees. I grew up in refugee camps across Europe. My dad was in Evin prison. And he actually, it's kind of weird for me to see the state TV being bombed.

evin prison being bombed state tv is the place that they took forced confessions from so many innocent people so many people that were they hadn't done what they made them admit to doing and then they held them in evin prison they tortured them like they did my dad and then they killed them they executed them

just to set an example. So as with many Iranians, it feels so good to see these places that have been oppressing us for so long, that have been torturing us, that have been shutting us up for years to be destroyed. But at the same time, It breaks my heart to see

You know, my city reduced to rubble. I left Iran and I haven't been back because I'm a journalist. I could never return to Iran and I've been very outspoken. I did a TED talk. I've, you know, I've been threatened by the Iranian regime. I had to get the police involved here because we know that they are targeting journalists. and political activists outside of Iran.

I haven't been able to go back. And it breaks my heart that I'm never going to be able to see the city I left behind when I was 11 and I've been dying to see it again. It breaks my heart that I'm never going to see it again. And if I do, it might be nothing. It might be pictures of Gaza and Ukraine comes to mind. which breaks my heart.

family itself. My grandmother is in central Iran. She's very old. She's not mobile. My auntie is with her. My cousins are all herded inside of her house because they have nowhere else to go and they have no mobility. And they're literally just sitting there.

waiting and hoping for the best. And this is so distressing. And sometimes when I come and talk on TV or talk on broadcasters like with you guys, I feel a bit rich because I sit here and I'm like, yeah, hopefully this is going to topple the regime.

I sometimes feel guilty because I'm like, am I actually losing sight of the reality inside of Iran of mothers who've lost their children? Like, according to the latest reports, 800 people have been killed. They say around 400 of that are civilians, 300 are government officials.

and the rest are unaccounted for. It's a really complex thing because on the one hand, we want this regime gone. We know that long term, this is actually going to save people. But at the same time, this is a war. Our infrastructure is being killed. Our women and children and our people are being killed. We're all frustrated. We're all scared. And there is also this sense of guilt when we sort of deep down inside support this war because we've been at war with the regimes for so much longer.

thank you so much for being with us thank you so much it's been my pleasure

This is The News Agents. It's amazing how fast events turn in the world right now. A few days ago, Pakistan nominated Donald Trump... For a Nobel Peace Prize. What could be grander? What could be finer? Yeah, they were complimenting him on his decisive diplomatic intervention, pivotal leadership during the recent...

India-Pakistan crisis. In other words, the thing that Donald Trump has always dreamt of getting was his Nobel Peace Prize. You know, he was so annoyed when Obama got it for seemingly doing sweet FA. And he's made no secret of the fact that he thinks he deserves one. Pakistan nominates Donald Trump for one just last week. And boom, Saturday night, he just proves how deeply, deeply bad their timing was. And Pakistan has now had to condemn. them US strikes on Iran, they are not.

big fans of what is going on there right now. In a statement, the country's government said it was gravely concerned at the possible further escalation of tensions in the regions and said the strikes were unprecedented escalation of tension and violence. So Donald... You've lost Pakistan's vote just days after you got it. We'll be back tomorrow. You're going to be in NATO, aren't you? Yes, we're going to NATO right now. We're going to The Hague.

We're going to The Hague. There you go. It was only a matter of time before Maitlis would be up at The Hague. We'll see you tomorrow. Bye-bye. See you shortly. Bye. This is a Global Player original podcast. Thanks for listening to the News Agents podcast brought to you by HSBC UK, opening up a world of opportunity. Your instincts, your aim, your edge. Only you know how it all comes together.

So why settle for someone else's gaming setup? Go to lenovo.com slash customize and custom build your Legion gaming laptop with the graphics, frame rates, and processors that turn grind into glory. Only you know what you need, and you won't find it better anywhere else. Build your Lenovo Legion Gaming laptop at lenovo.com slash customize.