What does Trump really want from Putin?

This is a global player original podcast. For three and a half years while this conflict has raged, or three years while it has raged, no one else has been able to bring something together like what we saw today. Because Donald Trump is the only leader in the world that can. So no one is being sidelined here, but President Trump is in a position that he campaigned on to initiate a process that could bring about an end to this conflict.

And from that could emerge some very positive things for the United States, for Europe, for Ukraine, for the world. But first it begins by the end of this conflict. with Sergei Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister. And when he says that no one is being sidelined, uh There was no Ukrainian foreign minister there. It was America and Russia apparently carving up what the world should look like. In one sense he's right. The war has been going on for three years and Europe

could at any point have decided to try and end it with Zelensky and with Putin, but they didn't know how to. Are they looking to Trump as a man with a plan, or just a man who likes to talk as if he's got one?

Welcome to the News Agence USA. It's Emily. It's John. And as we speak, Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, is meeting in Riyadh with the Russian Sergei Lavrov. They think that they can bring about the end to the Ukraine war, which we should probably call the Russia War, because it is obviously a Russian invasion, not of Ukraine's making, and Ukraine has been, as we've said, left out of these talks. They're not at the table. European leaders aren't at the table.

But the lines coming out of Russia is that there can be no prospect of anything that looks like enduring peace in Ukraine unless their own concerns about national security are addressed. Because Russia is demanding that NATO roll back military deployments in Eastern Europe. And they say that that is key to anything they agree.

Now, look at what the mood music is around NATO and deployments in Eastern Europe right now. In the UK, Kirst Starmer has said he's willing to put British troops on the Ukraine border. We know that the Baltic states who've already had to reinforce their own borders are now having to think about whether they reinforce Ukraine's as well, and there is talk about what the right spending limit is for NATO. But at the moment

Russia is the one calling the shots. Russia, the invaders, are also the ones saying we're not gonna end until we feel that we are safe within our own borders. Which is

kind of an upside down way of seeing things. Well look, it was said at the time, sorta soon after the invasion, that, you know, you want to stop the war. Well if Russia stopped firing byddai'n gweithio'r wario, a fyddai'n gweithio'n gweithio, byddai'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio.

Not only is it he doesn't want Ukraine to be a member of NATO, he wants Russia to be the official language of Ukraine, he doesn't want it to be a viable state. He believes that Ukraine is not a sovereign state, but is part of Russia and the imperious ambitions of Putin have not changed at all. What has changed is the person in the White House who has agreed to these talks and his defense secretary has said, well, you know what, Ukraine can't get all it.

territory back and it can't join NATO. Therefore, America seems to have already given an awful lot of weight to Vladimir Putin before the talks get underway. There is just that slightly wider point as well. The wider lens is what is America's position now vis a vis Europe, Western security, NATO? Does it give a fig about what happens? in the continent of Europe. Because if it doesn't

That's eighty years of history since the Second World War that has been just altered in the four weeks that Donald Trump has been president. Yeah, and all bets are off there. Well joining us now and delight to say in the studio for the first time in person with us. is the veteran political strategist and former comms director for the Republican Party, Publican National Committee, Doug High. Doug, it's great to see you in the flesh. We've talked to you um down the line. And I feel like

We need an interpreter right now. So do we. Oh right. Um there are in in Washington right now, certainly that's true here in London as well and everywhere, there's still more questions than answers. And my guess is that's going to continue for the foreseeable future. Um, we've had three or four really fast weeks where there's been a whole lot happening.

A lot in directions that people weren't n necessarily anticipating. Some of this are things that Donald Trump campaigned on. A lot of them weren't. Um and so we're still trying to figure out what the lay of the land is, uh where Congress will acquiesce, where it won't, if it won't, um and what those things will be. Let me ask you a simpler question.

Who's in charge when it comes to foreign policy? Because we've seen the brief slightly split off in terms of General Kellogg was in Munich. Trump's calling the shots from the White House. Rubier's now in Riyadh with Russia's Sergei Lavrov. Do any of the smaller players matter or are they irrelevant until it goes back to Trump? They are all very relevant, but it all goes back to Trump. Um so we saw the other day Pete had

Sort of got over his skates a little bit. Donald Trump made him walk it back. That typically doesn't happen in a lot of administrations. Uh defense secretaries keep things pretty tightly buttoned up. This is not going to be a buttoned up administration. But ultimately, if you go astray of where Trump wants you to be, he'll let you know and you'll do something about it.

And what about the role of Marco Ribio, who, as Emily says, is in Riyadh today, meeting with Sergei Lavrov, four hour meeting apparently that went well, so we're told in the sort of, you know, useless language that comes out of these things. Is he doing anything before Donald Trump says what to do? Because there was a history of from the first administration of Secretaries of State getting into a bit of trouble when they get ahead of Donald Trump.

Uh it's going to be that exact same situation. And look Rubio is widely respected in Washington and liked. He passed with ninety nine ninety nine to zero. So not even one Democrat doing a protest vote. This means the confirmation hearings. So which was much more bipartisan than somebody like Exactly. And completely bipartisan, unanimous. There was one missing vote. But every Democrat who voted voted for Rubio.

He is where Democrats feel if not the most comfort, the least amount of pain. But this is still very much Donald Trump. um uh administration and f foreign policy view, whatever the details are that'll be worked out later. And I'll give you a a good example. Uh yesterday, you know, I'm in I'm in London, so I had pint

um with uh my friend James Hooley, who worked at the British Embassy in Washington. He'll be the next Ambassador to Cuba. To Cuba. And he showed me the picture of he and the king from the other day. I have to say that is something we don't get in the United States. And I f I floated an idea by him. It's Donald Trump's administration and if you are Donald Trump, you love big beautiful things.

And you like hotel and resort land, right? Palestine, let's think about for a second. Um, well what better than ninety miles south of Miami or Key West, Cuba. So Donald Trump has put Cuba back on the terror watch list, so that's his negotiating um tool right there first and foremost. So you could go to Donald Trump if you're um you know his son in law or somebody else, not Marco, and say you can be the one that can fully open up Cuba.

You can do what Barack Obama talked about doing but never did. Oh, and by the way, who's gonna have the first right of refusal at real estate? um in Cuba with a big capital golden T at why doesn't he do that to Guantanamo? I mean he could just do that to the other half of the island that America has already done.

So you make the Cuban American Florida Republican implement opening up Cuba. So why would he not do that? So Doug, I'm fascinated by the point you've just made because it kind of goes to the heart of I think what is the question that Europe is wrestling with, which is Is Donald Trump just a transactional president? Okay, Cuba, yeah I could see real estate there, I could see a Trump ha tower there, I could see all of that and he so he doesn't really care about

what the regime is in Cuba is whether he can develop property and see capitalism flourish for American companies. Or is he an ideologue? Because you listen to the speech that J D Vance made in Munich at the weekend, and it sounded like

We don't like Europe and we don't much like liberal democracy either, and frankly at times we've got more in commons with the Russians, who are kind of, you know, in their own way, and you've here heard Tucker Carlton on this as well. You know, we d we like them more with their values than we do

the Liberal Democrats in Europe. Yeah. Well one, Donald Trump is very transactional. I think we all know that. I go back to a story, I don't know if it's true or not, but it's certainly apocryphal if it's not true, that John Kasich, the former governor of Ohio, told that he got a call Donald Trump is interested in having you be the vice president nominee. And he goes, Okay, well, what would I be in charge of? Foreign and domestic policy. What would Donald Trump do?

Oh, he'd make America great again. So Trump doesn't necessarily care about those details, per se. J.D. Vance is very much of an ideologue and a changed one. You know, he's not necessarily the same guy who wrote the book a few years ago. But Trump is also viewing a Europe that is in a very difficult place. And as we have the conversation in Merrick about what are Democrats.

It's a very similar conversation. What is Europe? Right? Where is the UK in regards to Europe? Obviously is a big question. Um that Brexit passed, and I landed at Heathrow the morning after the Brexit vote. I remember the atmosphere in London, very similar to when Donald Trump won of people s not said, I can't believe this happened, but how could this have happened?

Wha who's the leader of Europe? What does European energy mean? And as we look at AI and the surge of energy that's going to require, does Europe get left behind? And I think that Vance is making very much the bet.

And is this And not over the next forty years, but the next four to six years. Yeah. And obviously I know it's a split country, but when JD Van tells Europe that they've lost their way on democracy. And of course we're all laughing at this guy who tried to pretend that Trump had won in twenty twenty, thinking, why are you lecturing Europeans about democracy? That sounds batshit.

But is America kind of thinking that when you're speaking to people and I guess I'm talking about centre right, not MAGA right and not Democrats, what is the feeling that you're getting? Look the feeling I think is still very much uh of a European orientation, but it's not a priority and do they want to defy Donald Trump or the Trump administration? And that answer, that set to that second point, is a defiant no.

And we see that with every Republican senator who very publicly wrestled with getting to yes on a whoever the Trump nominee was for HHS or DOJ or, you know, what have you. They're not willing to stand up to the administration.

at this point early on. I mean it's a kingdom, isn't it? It feels like a kingdom. It's it's ironically. Right. They hated George the third. We get it. But God, what are you doing now? This is sort of the fiefdom of Trump, right? Yeah and You know, Rubio was interesting to me in the Senate under the first Trump administration because I think what we learned about Trump is you can defy Trump.

on issues that aren't defined as core to whatever Donald Trump is. So, you know, if you're Rubio or Lindsey Graham, very critical on Trump administration towards China, for instance. But not about build the wall, even though we weren't really building a wall, not about those core Trump things. So as Trump has sort of morphed, or Trumpism is morphed now into this.

sort of East versus West or where is Europe in the world um question. Do you think that is the question for I mean, do you think that is important to him? Because it's hard to know what Trumpism is because at one point it's isolationist and at the other it's expansionist. And it now feels very imperialist, but maybe that's all just transactionalist. And it's sort of all things to certain people. And you know, what I've noticed over you know, certainly over the past five years or so is

how people have really talked themselves into wherever Trump is, I that's where I'm going to be. Totally. And has that shocked you? No. Has that worried you? Maybe it did yes. Maybe at first it did. You know, there there was for me, you know, a part of it that was and this certainly was true with the first administration, a bit of invasion of the body snatchers. Oh no, they got this one too. Well now it's the whole party.

So you then for folks who aren't fully on board with Trump, you sort of have two kinds, you know, and for myself I try and tell people my analysis from what I did on Capitol Hill, working in Congress, and you know what I see as good and bad, right and wrong. Trump does some good things. He does a lot of bad things. I'll call it out. Other people are very invested in my brand is.

You know, whatever Donald Trump is for, I then have to speak out against the And they get left behind. So now are the nouveau sort of left. I was at the Helsinki press conference that Trump did with Putin. In that news conference, Trump says

Vladimir Putin has assured me there was no interference in the twenty sixteen election and I believe him, why would he not be truthful about that? That was in absolute contradiction of all the national intelligence agencies. He gets on the plane to fly back to Washington from Helsinki. And he realizes he's got a major problem with the Republican Party and he walks it back the next day. Is there anyone who is gonna make him walk anything back?

When the party now says, you know, we can cozy up to Russia, we like Russia and if Ukraine has to cede territory and not be a part of NATO, that's cool, that's fine. Yeah, look, the NATO question for me is is is the most troubling one I think. Um there are some who will pick and choose their battles of when they can do that. This is where Lindsey Graham

I think becomes pretty interesting. But by and large, you know, this is not the Republican Party, it's the Trump Party. In a way that it wasn't the Obama Party or the George W. Bush Party or even the Republican Party of Reagan. It has been wholly remade. in Trump's image, and we see that, I think, on a daily basis, in the non-substantive ways that tell us then everything. How many Republican members of Congress now dress like Donald Trump?

But y you see it. They wear a bright red solid tie. They didn't do that seven years ago. They're dressing like him and that sends a signal. What a cult signal. Sure. Yeah. For some of'em. And what about the NATO question? I mean do you think that Night out. I don't think it's done yet. The fact that it's a question is troubling. If I'm Vladimir Putin or if I'm, you know, President Xi

I'm loving the past month. I think it's been fantastic for me and you know all of that. I scratch my head at some of this as well, because I think look, if the question is should France and Germany pay more on national defense? Yes, sure. Great. Let's do that. But putting a gun to the head of something that has been wildly successful, you know, globally

to me is very troubling. And part of that is as you know, there there are problems with the economy here, there are problems with the economy um in the United States, with prices, with immigration, you know, you go down the list. But we are in an unprecedented time.

of global prosperity and global peace. You know, even with everything that's happening in Ukraine and in in Gaza, it's still unprecedented the peace that we have had for the past eighty years. So let me uh go back to a question I've kind of already asked and ask it again in a way. With regards to NATO. Is this transactionalism? Trump just thinks, Screw Europe, you need to pay a hell of a lot more money into it.

Or does he just not much like the Western European security umbrella? Or is it about American arms deals? This is what I was told by an EU diplomat yesterday. That actually Trump's just trying to get people to pay more for Well it's it's to buy more American weaponry. It's all of that, but ultimately my sense is Trump doesn't really care about NATO except for what it can do for him.

or slash the the United States. I'd argue it's done a whole lot for the United States, as has, say, PepFAR, um and USAID, which is a whole other conversation. But that's not where the focus of voters are. Just let me And that's it that's a real issue. So voters in America where you know, Ukraine seems a long way away, Paris, London

Berlin seem a long way away. It's not our problem. Yeah, it's not in their daily thought process. Or weekly, or monthly, or yearly. No, a at all. And and look, I one of the terms that I really came to hate during this last election is uh low information or high information voters. Right. And I think in Washington a high information voter is defined as somebody who, you know, reads that really smart think piece in the Atlantic, which nobody in my hometown of North Carolina reads.

Um and they get defined as low information voters. They have a whole lot of information that they've been filtering through. It's just different information sources. Yeah. And it's their daily life. They go to the grocery store and they're mad. I was listening to Ruben Gallego. Who, you know, beat Cary Lake in Arizona um in the Senate race. And he said the thing that he's done differently and he out polled Harris, Kamala Harris, by about thirty points I think.

And he said the thing he did differently was he went to the construction sites and he brought them tacos and he talked to the guys there and he said, I'm gonna help you guys get out of your mama's home. Buy yourselves a little Troquito and get rich. And he said, That's not the language the Democrats use. The Democrats use this incredibly

flowery or dry language of economic stability. And Trump just says, You're gonna get rich with me. Yeah. And sometimes it's as simple as that. It is. And you know, I chuckled the other day. I was I was on Capitol Hill, I was walking down the street. and I saw somebody wearing one of the um Harris Walls camouflage hats.

And I remember when they put that out, they thought, Well this is it. We have figured out our message. We're gonna peel these voters because we have a hunters. Yeah, we've got the hunters. All of a sudden that's gonna turn'em and it reminded me of uh the year that Bedouer Rourke was running against Ted Cruz, I was in New York, walking up Broadway and somebody was wearing a Bedouer Rourke t-shirt.

Well he didn't need those t-shirts in on Broadway and Manhattan. He needed them in Waco and Laredo and he didn't have those. And that's part of where Democrats they've really got to figure out who they are.

And then who they're talking to and how they talk. There's they have a whole lot of challenges. We're gonna get on to the challenges at home in a second. But just lastly, while we're talking about international issues, our Prime Minister Keir Starmer is heading off for talk with Donald Trump next week. And we heard a very sort of generous but slightly bemused Trump explain that it was at Starmer's request that he's going over and doesn't really know what the talk's for.

If you were Starmer and Starmer thinks he's gonna be this bridge, you know, the bridge between the US and Europe and he's n trying not to be too friendly to anyone at the moment How do you be playing it and does it make any difference?

Uh, I think it does make a difference. How he plays it, I'm not sure. And also there's a brand new ambassador in Washington now. Karen Pierce has just she's just returned home. Um she did a great job by the way and was very, very well liked. So there's a lot of anticipation for the new ambassador as well. And it's going to start very quick with Starmer coming in with the meetings with Trump. How this all plays out, I don't know. He certainly had a kinship with Boris.

I think some of that was overplayed, you know, the hair and uh you know, all of that that people say, Well look, they're they're so alike. I didn't think they were all that alike, but they had a kinship and they certainly were strong communicators in a way that obviously Liz Truss, who's keeps popping up in Washington all the time, certainly wasn't.

a different breed and obviously you don't have that Tory Republican relationship. So my guess is it's going to be strained and Donald Trump is going to be looking for sort of the personal niceties.

You think of how much Donald Trump says, whether it was when he was running for president the first time or serving as president, that person's nice to me. Why would Vladimir lie to me? He was so nice to me. You know, but what a nasty lady. We heard a lot. Yep. Didn't we? Macron threw a parade for him essentially. Oh I love that guy.

So I that's part of what Trump is going to react to. Policy details I don't even think are in his real thought process. What what's the position now with Peter Mandelson, the new ambassador? Well, he's just started. Have they come round to him as an idea? Um, they've barely met him at this point, right? So that's that's that's not a criticism. He's been there for a week.

Um he's I think basically presented his credentials and and that's been it. So his real tenure will start when Starmer comes comes into town. He's got fact the ambassador will have an event next week that I'll be at, which is his first sort of public event, you know, hosting people at at the embassy. And everybody has it's a question mark because Karen um Pierce was there for so long. She had an extended period because of COVID and so forth. A lot of a lot of questions there.

You must tell us who turns up. Because that would be interesting in itself. It's interesting in itself. You know, whether you do get the Senators and the Congress people and the the you know National Security Council people turning up to be there. They'll be there and

Jack Blanchard, who's moved back uh who's moved to Washington, is covering um playbook, I think he will list pretty much everyone who was there. And I think it's it's one of those I tell you, your embassy always does an amazing job on events. You know, we don't have royal weddings in the United States, so when you do Big invitations there are

Very sought after and so forth. I think a lot of people will be turning out for this. You know, they had a screening at the embassy. Maybe you were there, I was there. of one of the new episodes of The Crown when it had come out. I was not invited to that one but I know about it. And all the American women turned up dressed as though they were going to a royal wedding. It was absolutely fabulous. The Brits turned up looking stunning and we all got and we all got given

After corgy animals, as we left. It was super. Right, we will be back after the break and we're gonna talk about US domestic policy and what Trump is doing. The News Agents USA with Maitless and John Soport.

So we're back with Doug High and Doug, you said euphemistically that things were happening very fast. I mean that is an understatement. I it is warp speed at the moment, right? It is crazy all the stuff that's going on inside

the US government not least, the firing of federal employees, the shutting down of departments, the big noise about doge and efficiency and cutting waste but then actually having to call back all the people you fired because you realised that they were like the nuclear war experts and the country Kind of needs them for national security. I mean, do you sense that the people in charge have a plan? Sort of.

Which I know is not a real answer for you. Donald Trump is not a set of policy prescriptions. He's blunt force trauma and he's an attitude. And so when Trump would say, you know, d in the presidential debate or on the campaign trail, I don't know anything of this project twenty twenty-five, I believe him.

Because Donald Trump wasn't going to read it. He wouldn't read it. He wouldn't read it. Why is he going to sit down and read, you know, five hundred pages of the heritage foundation? He's not going to do that. But what he's going to do it it's is what was clear was something like what we saw on Inauguration Day, you know, with that big event.

um in the Capital One arena, signing executive orders in front of, you know, hooting and hollering crowds and all of that. What sort of came after that, I think, is what what has caught people by surprise and caught them sort of in a mode now where everybody's exhausted.

You know, we've gone back to that place that we were, but even more so um than the first Trump administration, where you have to check your phone every forty five minutes. You don't get home, put your phone, you know, on the kitchen counter and check it three hours later because things are happening that fast. And what we see happening, nuclear physicists or air traffic controllers are s or are the obvious examples of people who are coming back.

Donald Trump wasn't elected necessarily to do all of those things. But you know, when you're when you're president you do things that you weren't necessarily elected to do. You often do if events hit you in the face.

But he's gone out and looked for that stuff. That's the difference. He doesn't have to fire air traffic controllers. He doesn't have to fire experts in nuclear physics. No, and and the manner of which this has been done, you know, whether it's Elon Musk, which is his whole other relationship I can't even try and psychoanalyze or nineteen year olds, you know, showing up at the department of education, transportation, justice and doing wholesale firings and real things being impacted by it. That's

That's not what voters voted for. The base the base loves it. How big's the base? 40% Forty still? Probably, yeah.

Four. He's going up, aren't they? Well he's He's simultaneously at his highest numbers ever. No, he's not a good thing. But he does have a honeymoon. It might might not be a long one or a great one, but he does have a honeymoon and as he's as they're doing this He's moving so fast on so many things that no one can really keep up. That's by design.

You know, so it's education now, it's transportation tomorrow, it's the F C C uh two hours later. It's very hard to keep up. What I would say is, you know, as somebody who's still trying to maintain being a conservative Republican, whatever that means in twenty twenty five. is some of the changes that they're making can't be done with a scalpel, and I get that.

But a good chef knife, I think, would be helpful here as opposed to a cleaver that is just hacking away and then realizing, Oh, we shouldn't fire nuclear physicists, we may need them. Air traffic controllers, as we've just had the plane crash in D C we just had one in the city. I mean can we talk to you about that that response when he came out the next morning?

and said, We don't know anything about this, but it was probably the helicopter's fault and then he turned it into a this is a problem with DI hiring amongst air traffic controllers. So it he took it to a terrible place immediately? That's that's what he does?

Um, I can tell you that the the female pilot was a graduate of North Carolina, my school, where she took classes at ROTC, where I took at least one class. I talked to the chancellor about it, and he said she graduated top of her class and you know we were all massively saddened by this. So they knew immediately. That one, what he's saying wasn't true. But this is we're going to see this over and over again. And, you know, I working with some universities.

I fully agree that DEI has entrenched itself in business and in and in academia in ways that are unhealthy. Um, but not everything is a problem of DEI. But if everything is a problem of DEI and you define it by that. maybe don't nominate Herschel Walker to be an ambassador. It'd be i easy for Democrats to say, Well, he's not a DEI hire, but this is where Trump is going to go, and I'm surprised in a way Well he's he's a loyalty hire, isn't he?

Trying to gain points with Donald Trump. Donald Trump doesn't give points. He only takes them away one at a time. Ask Ryan Sprevis. He was the chief of staff and then was told, Oh, you don't have a ride back. You have to wait here on the tarmac. Yeah. That happens a lot. You're talking about how Donald Trump is going so fast So far on so many fronts

right now. He has posted on Truth Social where people have raised questions about the constitutionality, the legality of some of the things that have been done in his name by Elon Musk in particular. And he's posted He who saves his country does not violate any law. Now that is a pretty tendential. Exactly. What do you as a conservative Republican as you still describe yourself as Well you know Richard Nixon said when the president does it it's not illegal. Should not have been true.

Trump's operating now in a in a world where the Supreme Court has essentially said that that may be true. What about And Trump is testing limits constantly. Yeah, and do you believe that the Supreme Court, I mean, a little earlier in the interview you talked about it's not clear yet, Who are the people that are going to act as a check or a bloc or say you can't go this far? The Supreme Court has a six three Conservative majority, three of the justices appointed by Donald Trump in his first term.

Do you see that they will more or less give him a blank check or will the courts be the block on some of Trump's ambition? The the honest answer is I don't know. And I don't know what happens if they try and stop Trump on something and he tries to then defy them.

And it's fine, I was I was talking with a colleague the other day who said, Well, if the Supreme Court rules against Trump, well then that's it. That's when, you know, people are gonna stand up and and block him on things and a and I sort of laughed and said, Well We keep saying, well, this is the time when somebody's going to stand up to Trump. This is the time that he's going to be stopped on something. And it never happens. It's always the next time.

Um so I don't have much confidence there and and that worries me. And you know, this comes there's that old I think it's an Ernest Hemingway line of bankruptcy comes gradually and then suddenly Suddenly all at once. Yes, slowly and then all at once. And this may be where we are because Republican Congresses gave George W. Bush more executive power. Democratic Congresses gave Barack Obama more executive power. So all of this is enabled

Trump to do what he's doing now. And so you know, the stain I think is on everyone. And I say that as a Republican staffer who didn't push back on my boss enough on the first Gulf War, where we gave enormous powers to George W. Bush. that then became powers for Obama, for Trump, for Biden. You know, those things don't go away. And Steve Bannon today is hinting that he's going to do everything in his power to try and get Trump a third term, which we know is

Unconstitutional. You cannot serve more than two terms. This kind of stuff which seemed outlandish a short time ago, which we thought was in the domain of Putin and Medvedev or Xi trying to get his fourth term in China, is now being spouted by somebody who has worked very closely.

with Donald Trump. And now we're kinda thinking that could happen? I think that it can't, but certainly there are going to be efforts for it. It is so clear that I mean that's the end of the constitution, doesn't it? I think it's unlikely to happen, but I can't say that it it's absolutely impossible. Do you find that remarkable that you're sitting here and saying that the Constitution could essentially be ripped out? I mean that's the gradually and then all at once.

Completely. And I guess what I'm saying and y you know, you say we could have put guardrails round the power on George Bush won. Where is the pushback coming from now? Because the Democrats are in pieces, the Supreme Court might ironically turn out to be the one place that does push against the president that nominated the individuals.

The press is s s feels to me as if it's pretty much caved already. Mhm. I in the US. And the Republican Party's gone. Right. So where does the pushback come from? I d I don't think it does. At all. Mhm. I it it then it becomes it well it becomes the court and not, you know, this circuit court or court of appeals or whatever. It is the Supreme Court. Or nothing. Or nothing. And in all of this You have the extraordinary relationship between Donald Trump and Elon Musk.

And what Elon Musk is doing. I was struck by something you said a moment ago that in Congress they're all starting to dress like Donald Trump, which is a sign of the cult. What Elon Musk is. Right. Elon Musk is in the Oval Office wearing looking like a tech bro. Mm-hmm. Well he's wearing a toddler, actually. He's wearing a toddler on his shoulders. But he had his you know, his black MAGA cap on and a a T shirt and all the rest of it, which look like it was

Deliberately disrespecting Donald Trump who cares so much about what people dress like and how they look. Does that relationship continue or does it explode into a million little pieces? Oh I don't know. It but it's it's one or the other.

They both, I think, probably need each other to some extent. And for Musk He doesn't really care about how many employees work at the Department of Labor and so forth, but he has access now in a way that no one in the country has, and government contracts, which aren't necessarily about him making more money, that's nice. but really about power for the future. He is consolidating power in a way that no private citizen really ever has.

And so they may need to be symbiotic, but we know that relationships with Donald Trump are combustible. And so w I think we're going to have to, you know, watch over the coming days, weeks, months, however long And when it happens, we'll all see. That'll be, you know, the supernova. And what the fallout may be, I I'm not smart enough to know.

But that possibility is sure there. But Doug, you you know, you kind of to Emily's question a moment ago about the the twenty second amendment and Steve Bannon trying to get Trump a third term and you're saying you well, you know, unlikely, but you know, who kn let's see what happens. We're also seeing

Musk playing a role which is beyond any individual I have ever seen or witnessed in terms of the power that he has accrued, the lack of accountability, and the fact that he has no electoral mandate whatsoever. other than Donald Trump has said, Yeah, go make hay. Mm-hmm. This is unbelievable. This is again a test of the US Constitution, isn't it? It it is and it's where I think Democrats should be smarter.

Democrats when they when they try and push back on this, they keep talking about how Elon Musk is, you know, not an elected official. Well You know, neither is everybody else who works in government that aren't the you know five hundred and thirty six basically senators, members of Congress, and president. That's not where you should go. You should pick those things.

that are vulnerable to Donald Trump where he's not fulfilling prof uh promises and hammer him home on that. But I mean to be fair, the unelected official line also comes from Steve Bannon, who hates him and calls him an unelected illegal immigrant I think. And look, there's there are battles within Magaland. It is it is a weird place. But Musk is is reigning supreme and and inside the government.

And Bannon's outside of it, right? So there's there's sort of MAGA government and there's MAGA world. And they're they're two different things there's Disney and there's Epcot, sort of. If that makes sense, I don't know. Or Euro Disney, I don't know. Makes perfect sense. I think we should be ending with Marvel. But yeah. Doug High, that was incredible to talk to you. Thank you so much. Great to be with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. With Emily Maitless.

And John Sopor. So it was FDR who decided that he would serve not one term, not two terms, not three terms, but four terms. And after he died in office. I think the great and the good gathered around and said I'm not sure we can

let this carry on. We need to amend the constitution to make sure that you only have two consecutive or two terms in office as president. And sure enough, in the nineteen fifties, the amendment twenty two was brought in, which essentially said that, that that is now The law you can only have two terms in office. Steve Bannon's lines over the last twenty four hours. Which who knows? Might have been an eye roll, might have been tongue in cheek. It's always so hard to know.

Suggested that he is working really hard at a third term for Donald Trump. And one of the things we know is that something that starts by sounding preposterous then ends up by becoming fact. On january sixth, twenty twenty one. You realize that the US Constitution was a rather brittle document. not this tough kind of armor plated thing that was indestructible. Yeah, the US Constitution survived. Yeah, Joe Biden became the president.

But it was a close run thing. It depended on Mike Pence and a few others doing the right thing. If they'd gone in a different direction, who knows what would have happened? Who knows what would have happened if it had gone to the Supreme Court. And again and again now we are seeing the challenges. to what has been the conventional view of the US Constitution.

I don't think we're catastrophizing, saying, Oh my god, it's the end of American democracy. American democracy though is changing fundamentally before our eyes, with apparently very little challenge. I mean you'll know better than me that

And the founding fathers. The school kids, you know, they I mean America, unlike Britain, where we're slightly kind of we're quite relaxed about things like the anthem and about how we sing it and about, you know, how we of the state or the role of of our country in patriotism. I mean Americans are all they all swear on the constitution. They all swear on the constitution. There is the pledge in school each morning.

Each morning. Yeah, before every national before any big sporting event, you'll have the presentation of colours, you will have the national anthem being sung, the star spangled banner. It is a different place and America celebrates. the uniqueness of what has been created by the Founding Fathers, where two hundred and fifty, two hundred and sixty years ago they sat with a blank piece of paper And said right.

How can we have something better than the Catholic states we've got of mainland Europe or the monarchy that you've got in Britain? Let's have the enlightened ideas from the Enlightenment to guide our constitution to create a more perfect union. So let me flip this on its head. The Constitution has been amended. We know, you know, there are amendments right the way through the Constitution.

If this just becomes another amendment to the constitution, if somebody says puts the argument forward that if you love a president so much you want to vote him in three times, what's wrong with that? It's still democracy. We just get the chance to vote for him again.

Why isn't that an okay amendment? That's fine. As long as it passes through the conventional means of a constitutional amendment. I don't think Steve Bannon is thinking that he's going to take this to Congress three quarters of the votes that would be needed

to force through a constitutional amendment. It will be by other means. It will be a reinterpretation of the law. If it's a constitutional amendment, and that is what is voted on by the process by which you amend the US Constitution, happy days. It will not happen like that. We'll be back next week. We hope. See ya then. Bye bye.