Does America really "want a dictator"?

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Not that I don't have I would the right to do anything I want to do. I'm the president of the United States. If I think our country is in danger and it is in danger in these cities, I can do it. But it would be nice if they'd call and they'd say would you do it? That is Donald Trump. I have the right to do Anything I want to do. I'm the President of the United States. No checks. No balances, no one saying, Donald, you can't do this. He thinks he is omnipotent, ubiquitous.

The direction of travel is pretty clear. Trump wants control of everything, of institutions like the Fed. Harvard, the Smithsonian, and of anyone he perceives to be his enemy. The question is, is anyone actually stopping him? Welcome to the NewsAgents USA. It's John. It's Emily. And Lisa Cook may not be a name that is very familiar to you, but it's going to become more familiar because she is on the board of the Federal Reserve. an independent body that sets monetary policy for the US.

Last week, at the end of last week, Donald Trump took it upon himself To fire her, said For grounds that are, well, let's say dubious at the least, and also raise questions over does Donald Trump have the right to sack who is on the board of the Federal Reserve? She's the only black woman, the first black woman to be appointed to it, but Donald Trump says there are questions over something she did about mortgages, and therefore she's not fit to be serving.

there has been nothing proven against her whatsoever. And it looks like a naked power grab by Donald Trump to get rid of someone who'd been appointed by Joe Biden for a fourteen year term, to put someone in who will do his bidding, so that Donald Trump will set the interest rate. For the United States of America, not a bunch of independent minded officials, technocrats who've got America's best interests at heart.

Yeah. As you say, she's one of seven governors who sits on the Federal Reserve Board. She was nominated by the Biden administration in twenty twenty two and approved, confirmed by the Senate. And I guess the question is how she entered Trump's orbit and this is where things get sublimely crazy as ever. It was a perfectly random tweet by somebody Presumably desperate to placate Trump. His name is Bill Polt. He's Director of Federal Housing under Donald Trump.

He suddenly takes to social media and he posts that he's found evidence that Lisa Cook has committed mortgage fraud, questions of the kind that we're we're pretty familiar with here, you know, whether you paid tax on your first property, your primary residence, or your second. And he says that she got a more favorable rate from the bank. These are just his post.

There has been no evidence, there has been no investigation, there has been no charge against Lisa Cook. And what kind of delightful in the middle of all this is that Lisa Cook just says no. I'm not going. I'm not going anywhere. Trump has no right to fire me. And to be fair, the Federal Reserve Board is is pretty well protected. They cannot just be fired by the president. And she said, I'm I'm not going anywhere. I'll get lawyers in, I'll sue if needs be and so far the Fed have

Stayed behind her and said, Yeah, she's still on. And I guess you have to put this in the context of the months of wrangling. That Trump has been having with the Fed up till this point. All this noise about whether he's going to fire the Fed chairman, Jerome Powell. He wants Jerome Powell to cut interest rates. Jerome Powell is independent. He's an economist. He's saying no, I'll do it.

when it's ready, when the economy demands I won't do it on the say so of a man who wants to be an autocrat. And so I guess in the last what, ten days Trump has backed off firing the older white guy. He doesn't want to upset the markets, and he's fired the deputy, the board member, the black woman instead. And yes, you know, she's the first black woman on the Fed board, which might just be one big huge coincidence or it might not.

And so there you have this massive overreach where Trump is basically trying to control something that cannot be controlled, which is the state of the economy. Jerome Powell has been Pretty outspoken. I mean, they have this big sort of central bankers meeting in Wyoming in Jackson Hole. It's a big meeting where everyone comes together and they kind of talk about the state of the economy, the state of the world, the direction of travel.

And it was just kind of around this time when all eyes of the world are on the central bankers. that she suddenly finds that she's been fired. Jerome Powell had been very candid. He's one of the few people that stood up to Trump. There is a moment where Trump is being shown round the renovations of the Federal Reserve and he starts telling Jerome Powell that he's overspent, that the budget's overspent. And Jerome Powell goes, No, you're wrong. We haven't overspent. I think you're

getting confused with a a previous renovation, another building that happened five years ago. He stands up to Trump and essentially says, he's wrong. And he's also been pretty clear about what he thinks Trump is doing with the economy. He's said it, I mean, in very kind of neutral economic language. He's talked about

the tariffs making things much harder for American businesses and American consumers. He's talked about the tightening of the labor market. In other words, it's pretty hard to get people to work now because ICE has sort of fired and deported so many people. There aren't enough people in the labor market. And so he's kind of Being pretty frank about where he thinks the economy's going.

And as a result, Trump has kind of taken again him, can't fire him'cause he doesn't want to upset the markets, and so he goes, as ever, for the woman instead. At the moment, I mean, we're kind of looking at the bond markets and they are sort of Ah, muted but wary. You know, they're not reacting because she hasn't actually gone. But they're kind of saying

Mm I'm not I'm not massively sure this is the trajectory we want to be on right now. But this is part of a piece, isn't it? Because we saw the head of the Bureau of Labour Statistics being fired a couple of weeks ago. What was her crime? She published the Labour statistics. You know? She had produced the numbers that the Labour statisticians had come up with, which showed that there was a slowing in the labour market in the United States of America.

That was an uncomfortable truth for Donald Trump. It gave him bad headlines. So he said it was fake news. It was a Biden appointee. She has to go as well. And so what you are doing, and this is the gamble that Donald Trump is taking. The establishment of the Federal Reserve as this truly independent body. was always at the outset viewed with suspicion. Which politician was going to give up

control over the levers of the macroeconomic policy for a country. No one was. We can't believe that it would be truly independent. And it's been hard earned and hard won that the setting of interest rates in the United States for short term political manipulation. It's being done for the long term good of macroeconomic stability. for the US. And in Britain we've had something very similar in nineteen ninety seven after Blair wins the election. Gordon Brown announces the operational independence

of the Bank of England where they are set targets for inflation and growth, but they are not told when to raise interest rates and when to cut them. Donald Trump clearly wants to scrap all of that. And that has profound consequences for the global economy if you think that the numbers you are seeing coming out of the world's biggest economy, the United States of America, are bullshit.

And that is the danger of what Donald Trump is doing now. And that is why everyone, as you say, Emily, is watching the bond markets to see what he might do next, what the consequences will be. But there is a pattern, isn't there? I mean, as you say, when he doesn't like the economic numbers, he fires the woman at the Bureau of Labour Statistics. When he doesn't like what's happening to interest rates he fires the woman again at the Federal Reserve Board of Governors.

And when he doesn't like somebody in political life, he goes after them. This is the week in which He suddenly sent FBI agents round to John Bolton's house. You will know John Bolton, the sort of mustachioed former NSA director who is now a very vocal critic of Trump and who has ironically accused Trump of retribution politics. Now Trump comes back to the Emily, Emily, you've got I've got to stop you there. Donald Trump said he didn't know anything at all about the FBI action against.

John Bolton. So it's not Trump, uh it's not Cash Patel, it's just i the independent working of the FBI agents who suddenly turn up at his Maryland home and start going through his papers. And the one thing Trump says is, Oh yeah, well I know how that feels'cause it happened to me at Mar a Lago. So n no retribution going on here at all. And I think the pick of John Bolton is quite a clever one because

He's a man who I mean, we've had him on the news agents before. He's quite um irrascible, but he's quite outspoken. And he's slightly I guess politically friendless. You know, he hasn't pleased the MAGA crowd because he's been a vocal critic of Trump. He hasn't pleased the Democrats because he is a neocon and he's always been staunchly against the Democrats, even at his most vocal criticism of Trump.

And he hasn't really got a home, even with the sort of old school Republicans now, who I don't know, I I mean have kind of lost their voice and don't really see him as one of their own either. And so I think In going after Bolton, Trump has found somebody that Nobody is vocally defending enough. And actually at this point we should just say you do not have to like somebody's politics. You do not have to like what they stand for as a politician or as a political voice.

to say it is wrong To take your retribution out of the on people who criticize you. And it is very clear that is what Trump is doing right now. He's doing it with John Bolton. He's doing it with the Fed. He's even threatening to do it with Chris Christie, you know, former New Jersey governor, another one who stood against Trump.

this time round in in twenty twenty four and was very outspoken in his criticism. Trump is basically just ticking them off, trying to put heads on sticks and parade them round the town. It seems that he has control or is getting control Of the Fed. We've talked about what's happening at the Bureau of Labour Statistics.

He has absolute and total control over the Justice Department, where there always used to be the idea that the Attorney General was somehow separate from the President of the United States. Donald Trump is now going around and saying I am the man who is in charge and responsible for law and order in this country. Well, then he is responsible for the knock on the door at John Bolton's home where the FBI swoop in and take away bags and bags of stuff belonging to Mr Bolton as part of an inquiry.

John Bolton was appointed the National Security Advisor by Donald Trump in his first term. He was a Trump appointee. And for a while he was very highly regarded, but John Bolton's always been where he's been, which is he is a hawk. He is a neocon. He is one of those people who has sort of aggressively believed that America should be a leader of policing the world and as a consequence

You know, those are the views he's espoused for successive Republican presidents. He has been a public servant of the United States for kind of nearly fifty years. The other thing that Donald Trump did and if you think that we're overdoing this kind of line of the politics of vengeance, There is a credible Threat against John Bolton from the Iranians.

who John Bolton has advocated that America should attack and depose you know, the people in charge in Tehran. There is a credible terrorist threat against John Bolton from the Iranian security people. Donald Trump stripped Bolton of his security detail so that Bolton has no security whatsoever now. And Donald Trump has followed that up via the Attorney General.

to say, right, we're gonna raid his home and see if he had documents that he shouldn't have had. I mean, he had nothing compared to what Donald Trump had, squirred away at Mar a Lago that was going to lead to a credible case against him, but for the intervention of the Supreme Court. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? There's always a story That takes you for a moment or two down a rabbit hole. So in John Bolton's case, it's about

The book that he published, the memoir he published, and whether he used information that was classified. John Bolton got his book signed off. before it was published. That is just what you have to do before you release a book if you've been at the head of the National Security Agency. And yet

They have confected this argument that he's in possession of classified materials. Who else was accused of being possession of classified materials? I mean, that's where it gets sort of silly. In this revenge politics. He couldn't even change the excuse. And it's the same thing that we do when it's Lisa Cook and we start going down this rabbit hole of, Oh, well, was her mortgage wrong? Oh well, did she, you know, not pay the tax on her primary residence? It's actually the same

thing in a way, you were talking about the the Maureen Dowd piece last week about crime on the streets of Washington. It's the same thing. It takes everyone down this rabbit hole. Yes, of course there's crime in Washington. There is crime in many blue state cities of America. There's crime in many red state cities of America. But instead of actually saying what is at stake here is a power grab. It's a move to put soldiers, troops on the street.

it's not a move to solve crime, we start going down this kind of very whimsical, oh well, we should just investigate and see whether there's a bit of truth in this. It's very tiring to keep doing that because actually There is always something that he wants to land as a grain of truth. And most of the time it's a diversion. It's a diversion so that the liberal media or the progressives or the people who call themselves good journalists and have to do a bit of on the one hand, on the other hand,

investigate everything properly. Nobody wants to arrive at the conclusion that is almost inescapable right now, which is that Trump enjoys autocracy. He enjoys autocracy. He enjoys power. He wants to seize more. And he will find whatever excuses he can to do it. I mean, we talk about John Bolton because he's a high profile figure.

But it's not the first time. You know, we've seen what's happened to Miles Taylor, who wrote an op ed that he objected to in his first term. We've seen what happened to Chris Krebs. who pronounced that Biden's election win was fair. Those two both got chased. Those two are both being investigated. It's happening all over the Justice Department. It's happening to lawyers

who were actually the prosecutors of the January the sixth rioters. It's happening to lots of people a lot of the time. He's going after his enemies list. We know he has an enemy's list because he told Kash Patel and Kash Patel put it in his book. This is what is being enacted now. If Trump doesn't like you because you've stood against him in any shape or form, he is now going after you. So let's go back to kind of how we started this episode where you raised the question.

whatever happened to checks and balances. in the United States because, you know, the US Constitution was very carefully drawn up by the founding fathers. that there should be these three coequal branches of government which keep each other in check, so that nobody becomes over mighty. And you know, you go back to one of the f most fundamental ideas of the United States of America and why there is a Second Amendment. dare I say it, which is, you know, the right to bear arms.

is that states should have the power to resist an overmighty federal government. And yet what are we seeing now as part of this sort of trend where Donald Trump either wants to take over institutions, or run them or intimidate those who are part of them. What are we seeing in Washington DC with the National Guard coming in to take control? And what we possibly are about to see in Chicago, where Donald Trump is saying

I don't care whether the people want me to send the National Guard into Chicago. I don't care whether the city elected officials don't want it. I don't care what the governor thinks. I am going to do it anyway. And it has bought this kind of, you know, pretty strong response. And JB Pritzka is the governor of Illinois, where Chicago is, has spoken out about what Donald Trump is proposing. Mr. President, do not come to Chicago.

You are neither wanted here nor needed here. Your remarks about this effort over the last several weeks have betrayed a continuing slip in your mental faculties and are not fit for the auspicious. Office that you occupy. Most alarming, you seem to lack any appropriate concern as our commander-in-chief for the members of the military that you would so callously deploy as pawns in your ever

Ever more alarming grabs for power. Yeah. I mean JB Pritzker is showing a little bit of muscle. I might even say machismo there. He joins Gavin Newsom, who we talked about last week, the governor of California. He possibly also joins Wes Brown, the Governor of Maryland. These are three of the Democrats' potential hopes. for the twenty twenty eight election, the presidential election.

And each in their own way have decided that they've just had enough of taking this line down. They're kicking back. Newsom is doing it with parody on Twitter. He's trolling Trump. He's using his block capital. Where's Brown is inviting Trump to join him on the streets? Walk the streets of Baltimore with me if you want. I'll show you what goes on in the city, implying that Trump doesn't know. And Pritzka is doing the same thing. I mean the jab about

Trump's mental faculties is meant to make him go ouch. It is a way of saying, We've had enough. We're not gonna take this line down. And I think I think the fight back. Yeah, it's sort of starting there. I mean, it's definitely not starting with Republican lawmakers who don't seem to care what's going on. It definitely isn't really happening in the House of Representatives, in Congress in general.

And maybe it is now the governors who are gonna take this fight properly to Trump because as you say, there is a sense of protecting your state. And that is a very, very strong sense of what America is about. You know, you're Statehood first. Yeah, absolutely. And you talked about the Republicans who aren't going to take the fight to Donald Trump. You know, going back into history. Abraham Lincoln, a Republican president, was

assembled after the Civil War this cabinet around him, which was known as the Team of Rivals. They'd all opposed Abraham Lincoln, but for the sake of national unity he wanted to bring together rival strands. Let no one say that Donald Trump has done that with the cabinet that he has assembled Around him because we can listen now to a little flavour of the cabinet meeting and the full and frank exchange of ideas and views.

face on a banner in front of the Department of Labor because you are really the transformational president of the American worker, along with the American flag and President Roosevelt. Working for this government for you is the greatest honor of my life. You have breathed life back into the profession of law enforcement. Your respect for law enforcement. This is just such a great opportunity really to recognize your leadership as a

champion for working people. Well everyone knows there's no stronger advocate for hardworking American families than you. Well Mr President, first of all thank you for the opportunity to work for you. Our country has never been so secure thanks to you. You have brought us back from the edge. And there's only one thing I wish for. That that noble

Finally gets its act together and realizes that you are the single finest candidate since the Noble Piece this Noble Award. Oh, it's joyous, isn't it? Well, it is vomit inducing and it is also

Pretty damn scary, actually. I mean, Timothy Schneider, who wrote the whole book about autocracy, is you know, his first chapter is Do Not Obey. And actually, what we are hearing is person after person, sycophant after sycophant around Trump who are just acquiescing to whatever he wants. And I think it leads us to a really big question and It's really difficult not to sound like you're sort of hitting the nuclear button when you talk like this.

He has said that America would welcome a dictator. He said he didn't want to be a dictator, but he thinks America would welcome a dictator if he cleared up crime. He likes to take control of institutions. He likes to go after his enemies. He likes to send the FBI in, the Justice Department in To arrest people. He likes to deport people with people wearing masks on their faces. At what point do we say

This isn't fascism. Oh no, this is fine. This is okay. Don't be dramatic. Don't be silly. Don't reach for that stupid word the whole time. But I just don't know what what it is. I mean, you know, maybe we should ask our our listeners, what what is it then? If it isn't dictatorship, if it isn't autocracy, if it isn't fascist? to go after your enemies, to arrest people without due process.

To surround yourself with people who will never criticize and only flatter. To take control of institutions that have always been independent and always

flourished as independent institutions. What is it then? What what is the name for this if it's not that? Well, next year We have the midterm elections next November, and if the Democrats take control of a tightly balanced House then of course things look very different for Donald Trump because the inquiries that will be set up will be very, very unfavourable to him and focus much more on his behaviour.

So we've seen what's been happening in Texas with the attempt to redistrict to create an extra five Republican seats. We were talking a moment ago about the National Guard going into Illinois. We've talked about the National Guard being deployed to Washington. If you've got the National Guard on the street Next November, what happens to turnout in strong Republican areas when you know that Donald Trump's police are on the streets at his behest answering to him?

Will that increase turnout or will it suppress turnout in Democrat areas? If you're cynical. You would absolutely alight on the question, Emily, that you have just raised. This isn't about cancelling elections. But there again the really good political leaders never need to cancel elections. They carry on just on an uneven playing field. And in a moment we'll be hearing from one of the Key figures around Zora Mamdani as he runs to be New York Mayor in November.

Agents USA with Emily Maitland. And John Sopor. So November the fourth, no big presidential election this year, of course, no midterms, but there is one race that everyone is gonna be watching very intently. And that is what happens in New York, where we have this extraordinary collection of characters. Zoran Mamdani, who is the man that Trump calls the communist, the socialist, Ugandan.

born young man who really seems to have the young voters of New York on his side. He is a populist, an economic populist, very much of the left. And he's standing against the former disgraced governor Andrew Cuomo, who was made to leave his job after sexual mismanagement allegations. I'm kind of going carefully here because he will say that nothing was proven. And they're both standing against Eric Adams, who is the incumbent mayor, but a man who also faces charges of corruption.

And against Curtis Lewa, who is the de facto Republican candidate who no one really seems to be talking about very much. The Trump question is the one that is quite key here. Is he going to lend his backing to any of these candidates? To disgrace Derek Adams, to arguably disgrace Cuomo or and certainly not to Mamdani who he loathes. Does Trump have a role in this race at all? Well, it's so interesting. I mean Cuomo is willing Donald Trump to come in on his side.

And they were absolute loggerheads during the whole COVID period where Cuomo was kind of you know, taunting Trump about how you should be running things when Covid first started in twenty twenty. I can't help thinking that the person that Donald Trump would most love to see win the New York Merrill contest. Is Zoro Mamdani. It's a perfect foil for Donald Trump to have someone who is of the radical left who is this new breed of Democrat.

the first Muslim mayor of New York. I mean we know what he thinks about the Muslim mayor of London for apparent reasons that I don't know whether it's anything to do with his religion, but he seems to have very firm views about Sadiq Khan. Donald Trump would love it to have Zoran Mandani as the mayor because that gives him a punch bag that he can hit hard.

So I can't say how quickly would troops be on the on the streets of New York and there'll be troops on the streets of New York before you can can say boo. And so I think that, you know, this is the backdrop in which Zora Mamdani has scared the shit out of The Democrats, because he is so far to the left and seems to have such popular appeal that establishment Democrats.

don't know what to do. Has he been embraced by Chuck Schumer yet? No. Has he been embraced by Hakeem Jeffries, uh the minority leader in the House? No. Democrat establishment wants to keep its distance. But not everyone.

Is feeling that because Barack Obama has been in touch with Mamdani, and we can speak now to Patrick Gaspar. Who used to be Obama's political director in the 2008 campaign and was then Obama's ambassador to South Africa. And I see you described in the New York Times as Mamdani's emissary to New York power players. I I know you don't believe everything you read in the New York Times. Okay, is that true? Is that a good description of what you're doing?

I think it's fair to say that uh Zoran Mamdani is a friend of mine. I have been informally providing counsel to him through his historic win in the primary contest and that's continued now. there are many New Yorkers, many national political figures in politics, in b in business, in cultural spaces that I have the privilege to uh have gotten to know over the many years that I've been engaged and it's been a thrill uh to be able to share.

some of those relationships uh and some of those orientations and perspectives with uh Assemblymen Mamdani. It's been it's been great, it's been fun. Patrick, the impression that has been given by what I've read in the media is that those power brokers in New York, I could put this crudely, are I don't know what the phrase is, crapping themselves about the possibility of Zora Mandani as mayor of New York.

Is that a scientific term? I think that I think it I I could have gone for shitting themselves, but I went for the slightly more polite version of it. But seriously, I mean I you know, some of the proposals that he's come up with have absolutely horrified the power brokers of New York. And I just wonder, when you're trying to introduce him and talk to people about him

How that's going. Well, first your premise is correct. Many people have been crapping themselves, not just business leaders, but a lot of traditional political actors have been crapping themselves as well. I would posit to you that it's not about any of his individual proposals. It's about where he sits in the zeitgeist.

We are in not a left versus right moment uh in America, and I would argue with you in the UK and much of the world, but rather an outsider versus insider moment. I think that's the more important dynamic. To really understand about our political ecosystem these days. Zoran Mamdani very, very much

sits uh in the uh outsider spectrum, uh let's say, uh somebody who's kind of like storming the political Bastille. And it's not one individual idea, but this notion that the system is rigged against you. You are not benefiting from uh these institutions and those, whether they're Democrats, Republicans, conservatives, liberals.

who are standing in front of these institutions and and guarding them with their dear lives are are actually standing in the way of your progress and the social mobility of your children and an opportunity into the future because the game is rigged against you. I'd point out if I could

the horrific murder in Midtown Manhattan uh last year of the health insurance executive and we saw a response uh to that murder that was again not a left or a right response, but an outsider versus insider. A lot of people who were angry, who are feeling as if Uh they have no chance to absolutely make it uh at all in healthcare, in public education, in housing.

Zahn Mamdani arrives in the midst of that zeitgeist. He says the system is indeed rigged against you. Here are a number of things that I believe. can help to solve for that, particularly in the space of the cost of living. But it's not any individual proposal. but this sense that this is somebody who's completely upsetting the traditional apple card. Patrick, I just don't want to misunderstand what you've just said there. You talk about the murder.

of the CEO of the health company in cold blood and premeditated apparently. Horrific act. Horrific act. But you're saying that was the result of people feeling on the outside and hopeless? No, no, no. I'm not saying that the murder was, I'm saying that the response to the murder was this dynamic that's really different in our societies now. I think it's a post-pandemic reaction. You know, uh some years ago when we were running Barack Obama for president in the US, we were in the wake

of the Great Recession, of course, that had a long tail, difficult uh recovery in all of our nations. But there was a sense that somehow we were working with one another towards better ends for all. On the tail end of that, folks were feeling really dislocated. A lot of people lost uh their housing. There was this sense that those who were extraordinarily well off ended up doing better, bankers weren't punished, et cetera. That created something of a divide. And then you arrive at the pandemic.

COVID. Again, more displacement and and COVID was Not the Great Recession, it was the Great Reveal, where you have people who were solidly middle class who suddenly were feeling profoundly. uh insecure. It was clear that the rug had been pulled out from under them and folks were in a kind of spiritual malaise and not altogether hopeful about our institutions and their and the ability of traditional politicians to kind of rescue us.

So this election that just happened in New York, elections that are happening all around the world are now in that Post pandemic. prism. We have to see them through that. When we talk about the middle class, we're not talking about a space of aspiration, but a space of insecurity. Zoran Mamdani arrives in that and he says, This is not working. Here are some things I think we could be doing better. And

There's a response. Of course, he's a democratic socialist that has connotations. There's also the reality. of Israel and Gaza playing out in the backdrop of this. And I would argue to you that Zora Mamdari does not get to part the curtain and make a credible case if he's not seen as credible on something that is seizing the public political imaginations.

particularly of younger voters in the US than elsewhere. He's seen as credible on that. It gives him a point of entry into the other conversations about affordability, etcetera. Look, if we were talking about, you know, Britain to stand on a ticket and saying you're a democratic socialist, I mean the broadly speaking, that is the Labour Party, it's a party of democratic socialists. In US politics, the centre of political gravity is further to the right.

Nobody stands as a democratic socialist. Well I mean Bernie Sanders a bit. He Sanders. Yeah. He stood as an independent in Vermont. I'm talking about Zora Mamdani as someone who is going to be emblematic of the direction of travel of the Democratic Party. Do you think America is ready for a democratic socialist leader. I'd say a couple of things. We we have to start with

Uh the un you and I have the understanding that London is not the UK, New York is not the United States of America. There are things that are unique about these global capitals. extraordinarily different with, you know, multicultural cosmopolitan populations, people coming in and out, et cetera, et cetera. So, but there are compositional changes to the electorate. There are economic changes in the country. There are cultural and technological changes that kind of

reduce the emphasis again on right versus left and on labels like uh even democratic socialists. And people want to know, are you on my side? Are you fighting for my family? And that's why I believe in communities where Donald Trump did really well in New even though New York is not America. Uh Donald Trump did have an eighteen point improvement in his performance in New York in in in two thousand twenty four versus two thousand twenty or two thousand.

16. People want to want a want pugilist in this moment. They want people who are telling them and making it very clear that the institutions have not been on your side and we're going to shake them up and dislodge that power and make it work for you. And Zoran represented all of that.

Do you think Zoram Mandani can win over Wall Street, or is it important that he doesn't? You know, look, I worked for a candidate in two thousand eight who was a state senator in Chicago, Illinois, a black man with, you know, a foreign, let's just say a foreign sounding m uh name. And the argument was that not only could he not win a Democratic primary in places like Iowa, for instance, but he couldn't win the nomination. And then if he secured it, the the business community would

stand staunchly against them. I think that overtime, uh, that candidate uh Barack Obama demonstrated that Um, with the advent of technology uh that enables one to go around traditional media and directly to the electorate, there's a new kind of power that's accrued at the grassroots and it's catalytic and that can be mobilized. uh in ways that can create a durability and governance. And from that kind of power, business leaders understood that this was somebody who was gonna

stick around for a moment uh and represented a new trend and there were lots of partnerships uh that were formed across ideological and philosophical divides. Uh Zoran right now is having meaningful conversations with uh business leaders who don't just care about their tax bracket, uh, but who care about public transportation, public safety, public education, who understand that their ability to do well as business leaders in New York. It's dependent on their ability of their workers.

to maintain their homes uh and uh their communities. Uh and so they know they've got to meet Zoran uh at least halfway. Yeah uh on some of them. So he doesn't have to win over the Wall Street vote, but uh should he be successful in November, he needs to govern in a way that is going to consider the terribly important role that uh major business plays in the lifeblood of a city like New York and a country like America. You very elegantly drew a comparison.

Of how Barack Obama was seen when he was, you know, in Springfield, Illinois and trying to make his way on the national stage in Zoromamdani now. What does Barack Obama think? Of Zara Mamdani. Well first I'm gonna th thank you for describing anything that I do as I like to

That that is the the highest uh aspiration. I I'll I'll first let me let me just say a thing about uh Zaron uh that is something that I that struck me about Barack Obama when I first met him. I first met him in oof, two thousand and

Three. Uh he was still a state senator uh in Illinois and had not yet been elected to the US Senate seat, but I recognized within fifteen minutes of meeting him, that this was somebody who was an incredible political athlete, adroit enough to take complicated issues and make them accessible for average folk in a way that spoke to our broad aspirations.

I recognize the same things in Zoran. Zoran is an incredible political athlete, phenomenal uh communicator. He knows how to use the tools of the moment, but he also knows how to extend a broad grace. Uh and an empathy to even folks who may disagree with him on one issue uh or another. And like Obama, he's a happy warrior. Even when he's in a fight, you feel a sense of uh a kind of uh jubilation uh about being able to be part of

the the community and the conversation. So, you know, I'm not gonna report out on private conversations. I I will say to you that it it it will not surprise you that former President Obama uh recognizes the skill set that Zoom amdani had, recognizes the historic nature.

uh of the candidacy, somebody who's gonna be the first uh if he's successful Muslim American mayor in New York, and also recognizes the pitfalls uh that are ahead if one isn't uh constantly reaching out. Zoran has made it uh public that the president has encouraged him to broaden his coalition, broaden his base. So I wouldn't be misrepresenting you or what you've just said to me to say so far Barack Obama likes what he sees.

I think that uh again, I I'm um I I refuse even on your uh dynamic podcast to get out over my skis uh and make any representations for my former boss. But you know, it's clear.

uh that he would not have picked up the phone uh and reached out uh to Zoran uh if he had not been impressed with how Zoran is conducting himself and the and the movement that he's leading. So that is so fascinating because the rest of the Democratic Party in terms of You know, whether it be Chuck Schumer, whether it be Hakeem Jeffries, they're treating him like he's radioactive. You know, uh look, I I would uh

This is um when I was laying out all the reasons why I thought that Zoran uh was successful. There there are more things I want to say about that, but uh I did also note the tension inside the Democratic Party about the conduct of Israel and Gaza and Israel. qualifications for the Palestinian people and all the impact that it's had on American politics. It's roiled, uh Amer American politics roiled the waters here.

Uh, I think that there are many Democrats who are still waking up to the reality of the onslaught uh in Gaza uh and what it's meant for them to have extended a kind of unconditional support uh to Benjamin Nanyahoo and created a permission structure that uh has led to most of uh the the decimation uh that's uh taken place uh in the last uh many months and there's a huge um generational divide uh inside many communities uh in the US uh on uh this issue and all that was on display.

uh in Zalan's contest. Going into this, many traditional Democrats would have argued with you. that somebody with Zarmamdani's uh position could not be successful uh in New York, which has the largest

uh Jewish population outside of Israel. And Zoran, with his moral clarity on this issue, has demonstrated that even many in the Jewish community support his perspective on it. Uh I would suggest to you, that uh Zaron's outsider status the association with the democratic socialist uh of America and the reality of the political divide on Israel, Gaza inside Democratic Party has played a role in some of that all of that has played a role in hesitation.

for traditional Democrats to come on board in a fulsome way. But I think that even with that, many are already taking lessons uh from his victory and I see many who are running around uh America now and some some in New York, many around the country. who are mirroring many of the things that Zoran did with his relentless communication, doing everything everywhere all at once, not fearing to just go anywhere and to have difficult conversations.

uh his ability to take and distill his message into very, very simple points. Everybody knew exactly where Zoran Mamdani stood. uh on rent, on public transportation, free buses, on higher taxes for uh for for billionaires. There was clarity in it. I think that his relentless focus on cost of living is being replicated and copied by other Democrats.

uh now and the kind of, you know, outsider outside the system, we're gonna shake this up message of his has uh been a contagion in the party, even with those who uh continue to not embrace him or or denounce him. I also think that over the next couple of weeks, you'll see a shift uh in many traditional Democrats putting their arms around Zoran, standing with him behind podiums and saying, um, this is part uh of the future of the party.

So you think that Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer Need to get on board. I think that Zoran uh I think that Zaron's victory is an instructive one. I think that there's a new energy in the party. When you're able to attract more than forty thousand volunteers in this cynical era.

to come out uh and give the best of themselves and go door to door in communities, you're doing something right. And I think that uh most democrats uh should uh understand But this guy has hit the sweet spot on the overwhelming issue that most voters care about and that he's inspired young people to participate who we thought could never get off of their phones.

Uh and I think that they, yes, should lean into that uh and should be associated with that and take the best of that. You don't have to agree and it's never it's never been the case in the UK or in the US that political leaders make endorsements based on one hundred percent alignment.

uh with other candidates. It's never been the case and I have a sneaking suspicion it won't continue to be the case uh in this race much longer that folks are gonna come on board. Do you see it as a source of concern or celebration?

that Donald Trump is demonizing him to such an extent that he That's a badge of honor for Zahar Mamdani when you have a president who is running roughshod over our Constitution, who's turning our values on its ear, somebody who compels all the uh leadership in Europe to have to fly at a moment's notice into Washington, DC to stand as bulwarks with President uh Zelensky because they're terrified that the US President is gonna sell them out, sell all of us out.

uh to the Russian dictator, uh when you have somebody who's snatching people off the streets of the US without any due process and sending them off to gulags uh in uh El Salvador, somebody who's trying to bring major research institutions and universities to to heal because they won't follow his ridiculous political dictates. When you have that kind of a figure in office who also happens to be profoundly corrupt, nakedly corrupt, it is a badge of honor uh to have that uh as your opposition.

Uh and it should be a point of disgrace that some of Zoran's opponents are making direct appeals to Donald Trump or uh his support. This is an existential moment. What do you mean by that? Sorry, what do you mean by that? Who? Uh you may have seen the coverage in the the New York Times that the former governor of New York and and his associate

uh have been in direct conversation with uh Donald Trump to try to help them to narrow the field uh in New York and to help them make the case uh against uh Zoran. So if that's where they wanna uh make their bed, uh they're gonna find that there are iron spikes uh in that bed. Andrew Cuomo is who we're talking about, who was the governor of New York State, who was trounced. Yeah.

Are you worried about him as an running as an independent and the threat that he poses? I think that when you're Zar Mamdani and you were an outsider and you're, you know, thirty three years old, self identified, democratic, socialist and you're trying to do something that's never been done before. You have to take nothing for granted and you have to run all the way through the tape and try to bring as many folks along as you possibly can. So if you're trying to uh do something like this.

No, you should always be anxious about your chances and do all that you can to um consolidate the strengthen your coalition. Keep running hard. Patrick Gaspard, grateful to you. Fascinating to talk to you. Thank you very much. Great to be on. Thank you so much. News Agents USA with Emily Maitless. And John Soport.

So, if you've driven up and down the freeways of the United States of America, you will have seen the cracker barrel restaurant chains. Everywhere. And Cracker Barrel is a sort of imagined old version of America. Foxy Old school, it kind of it drips nostalgia for an America of bygone days. Cracker barrel were finding that their numbers, their sales were going down, and so they reimagined what cracker barrel would mean and tried to make it modern, except of course. In Trump's America.

if you make something modern, it must be Woke. All they did was change their logo. They had a logo that featured what they call an old timer, like an old guy, sort of, I don't know, in a rocking chair or something. Anyway, an old guy who is an old timer. They updated the logo, they got rid of the old timer, the old guy, and they just made it a clean barrel with their name on it. And Trump hated it.

And sure enough, when Trump hates something, in the commercial world, the commercial world seems to do what he wants. Whether it's Coca Cola taking out the sugar and replacing it with sugar cane, or whether it's Intel, just seeing itself being taken a stake of by Trump'cause he's reached out there. What we are seeing is Trump unable to keep his hands off anything, even a chain of restaurants. So sure enough, what's happened?

Cracker Barrel has cracked. They've gone back to their old logo. So this is capitalism. gone mad because a company is reacting to the fact that no one wants to buy this idea of nostalgia America, so they are modernizing their image. But the president says no no no, people do want nostalgia America. And even though they know that is wrong, they're doing it anyway. Nuts. We'll see you next week. Bye bye. Bye for now. See you next week.