Steve Bannon on LA raids, Elon Musk and tax cuts for billionaires

The News Agents USA podcast is brought to you by HSBC UK, opening up a world of opportunity. This is a Global Player original podcast. First off, it was not an apology. It was 3 a.m. He regrets some of the things. Look, I equate it to a he's a man child. I equate it to a demand baby. burping and throwing up his smashed peas on his bib. That's right, in the middle of the night. I would call that, thus spake the ketamine. That was Steve Bannon. And as will become clear...

There is very little love lost between Musk We're going to hear that interview in full. He was the architect of Trump's 2016 victory and still plays a critical part in the policies that we're seeing now. Yes, he is a controversial figure. and a reviled figure by many on the liberal side of politics. But you can't ignore him either, because he plays such a crucial part in the thinking of MAGA.

And if you want to understand what Donald Trump is doing and why he is doing it, then I'm afraid you do have to listen to what Steve Bannon has to say. Welcome to the News Agents USA. It's John. It's Emily. And to put this in context, the last time that we were with Steve Bannon in person was Super Tuesday of 2024, election year. And we got invited into his basement for a long chat.

We had just landed in Washington as well. We had landed in Washington an hour before. And he spelled out to us, and I remember this conversation very clearly, I said, women hate Trump, he's not going to get the women's vote unless he has a female VP. And Steve Bannon said, no.

We're not going to go down that route. I don't think he will go down that route. Although, you know, he'd say he doesn't ever know what Trump's going to do from one day to the next. But we've worked out where he gets the mail vote from. And he spelled out to us the reach that...

was going to have into ethnic communities that had up until that point been very much democratic strongholds. And he talked to us about winning over the black American vote, the Asian American vote and the Latino vote with three different strategies. And I remember coming out at that point and thinking, I don't think so. That's not going to wash. You know, these are kind of hardcore Democrat leaning kind of demographics.

And he was proved absolutely right. Yeah, he was proved absolutely right that he thought that particularly among young men, the sort of slightly macho style of Donald Trump. Or the conservative values, the Latino young men. Exactly. Appealed. And that was where...

he was targeting Donald Trump. So, look, Bannon... has insights into politics and is kind of he's very well read and very kind of widely read and has a strong sense of history and i'm not kind of building him up but i but i do think that you can't just ignore him

And of course, the banner message is being played out and the banner policies are being played out on the streets of Los Angeles right now, where the National Guard have been called in to kind of get rid of undocumented. migrants from across the border.

and to send them back. And something that Donald Trump promised in the election. Yeah, this is where it all gets complicated because what happened on the streets of LA over the weekend was a certain organic protest, a legitimate protest that came about when... And people felt that the roundups that immigration officers were making were unjust, unfair and unscrupulous, actually, that they were targeting just about anyone that they could find. And the protests that grew out of that.

were mainly kind of 90% peaceful protests. And then some of them got violent and some of them... got a bit anarchic and there was looting and there was some vandalism and there was violence. And I think we have to admit that straight up. As a response to that, Trump moved in with the Federal Guard. In normal circumstances, you would not deploy the Federal Guard, the National Guard, unless the governor of that state had demanded it. Gavin Newsom, California's governor, did not need Trump's help.

He has 70,000 of his own police officers. They all have the powers of arrest. He did not need the National Guard on the streets of LA or in any part of California. And so there are people who have looked at what's happened.

and try to work out whether this is a question of presidential overreach, whether Trump is... breaking the rules to prove a point, a sort of made-for-TV protest, or whether it is some kind of dress rehearsal that you create something that feels like an insurrection and then wham, you get to call it... an insurrection act. You get to call in a state of emergency. You get to call it an invasion. And at that point, you have emergency powers to enact things that a democratic president...

would not normally have. You are seizing and concentrating even more power than the president currently has. And it's worth underscoring that the riots that have been taking place in LA, it's not... all over la it's about one square mile which has been the most seriously affected yeah it's it's a comparatively confined area i remember going you used to go and report on a kind of you know flooding somewhere and what would you do you'd find that little bit of the city

where there was a flood and you wouldn't report where it was the kind of overwhelming area which was dry and at the moment what you've got in LA is this tiny little area where there has been unrest and there has been burning and there has been looting and shopkeepers have lost their businesses. It's bloody awful.

But it's not so widespread that you would need in and of itself to call in the National Guard over against the will of the governor. Now, you said a moment ago, where could this be leading? I mean, Gavin Newsom, the governor, thinks it could be leading. to a very dark place indeed. Democracy is under assault before our eyes. This moment we have feared has arrived. He's taking a wrecking ball, a wrecking ball to our founding father's historic project.

three co-equal branches of independent government. There are no longer any checks and balances. Congress is nowhere to be found. Speaker Johnson has completely abdicated that responsibility. The rule of law has increasingly been given way to the rule of Don. The founding fathers, they didn't live and die to see this kind of moment. It's time for all of us to stand up. Justice Brandeis.

He said it best. In a democracy, the most important office, with all due respect, Mr. President, is not the presidency. And it's certainly not governor. The most important office is office of citizen. At this moment. At this moment, we all need to stand up and be held to account a higher level of accountability. If you exercise your First Amendment rights, please, please do it peacefully. I know many of you are feeling deep anxiety, stress.

and fear but i want you to know that you are the antidote to that fear and that anxiety what donald trump wants most is your fealty your silence to be complicit in this moment do not

give in to him until now there's been a bipartisan view that illegal immigrants who are break the law who are part of drug trafficking who are whatever it happens to be need to be kicked out Democrats, Republicans agree on that. What's happening now is that in America, it's estimated there are something like 14 million illegal immigrants.

that are there and now donald trump is calling for the mass deportation whether or not those illegal immigrants have been living peacefully paying their taxes working on farms working in restaurants working wherever and so what you've seen which is i think very different from anything that has gone before and this again is to your point emily about the kind of increasing muscularity of it you've seen for example outside home depot unmarked vans full of ice officials

immigration and customs enforcement officials just door opening snatching people that were waiting to maybe get jobs that day on a farm or on a building site or whatever it happened to be Without any kind of sense of are these people people that are drug smugglers or illegal? You know, are they breaking the law or are they just people trying to make a living and pay their taxes? Exactly what Trump got elected to do.

I mean, let's not forget, I was at the Republican convention where the signs on the chairs that people were waving said mass deportations now. Right. So there is no confusion in the Trump voters mind that he is now enacting what they asked him to do. There is no confusion even. I guess, in the Hispanic communities that may see their own families, their own communities split up, who still say, well, actually, we knew about this, we voted for this, all the rest of it.

That is the argument you'll hear from Steve Bannon in a moment. And we also talked to him about that bust up. that Elon Musk and Trump had. And we talked to him about the big, beautiful bill because Bannon has always been of the economic left. A MAGA supporter with a very strong sense that the world's ills basically go right back to the financial crash and the unfair settlement that came about from it. And so we wanted to understand his position with...

A bill that would essentially cut Medicaid for the poorest and help billionaires with tax cuts. That's all coming up next. Looking to travel out of London with your friends this summer and want to save money? You could get a third off your train tickets when you travel as a group of three to nine people. Simply book your group's tickets together for the same journey and see how much you can save with GroupSave.

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Joining us now is Steve Bannon. When you see the National Guard, Steve, on the streets of L.A., when you see the Marines, when you think that it costs, what, $150 million of taxpayers' money, does it seem worth it? Oh, absolutely. In fact, we've been a big advocate for more troops in other cities. Listen, we have 10 million illegal alien invaders that came in just on Biden's watch.

And right now, I don't think we should worry about people that came beforehand. We can get to that later. We have to get out all 10 million. It's a massive drag on our budget. It's also crushing the Hispanic. citizens and African-American citizens in these cities is driving down wages. It's destroying their schools, their medicine. President Trump, this has to happen. And it's an 80-20.

I mean, look at it. You have people with Palestinian flags, Mexican flags, Ukrainian flags flying that are are sitting there, you know, challenging law and order. and so this has to happen i think president trump's done a great job we've actually been on the war room an advocate of uh of much more and in fact in other cities in a bigger troop presence

So just explain that. You would send the National Guard into other cities, other states, even if there weren't protests? No, no, no, not if there were protests. You see it. what happened last night you see this start to metastasize to chicago to new york city there was an incident in dallas if it looks like those get out of control we're a big advocate of federalizing the national guard

First off, federalize the National Guard. And if you have to, if it gets too bad, send in the Marines and send in the Army. What happened in L.A., it was getting out of control, and President Trump federalized the National Guard and set them in there, and then the police felt they had backup and actually got the attention of the mayor and the governor, and they started arresting people, which they should have done.

you know, days and weeks ago. Two things people should understand. President Trump's not going to let what happened in 2020 where this just metastasized and we had a summer of love where things were burned down. They're going to act much quicker because now he has people like Pete Hegseth and Stephen Miller.

and others in charge. Also, you know, we have 10 million people. We have to have a mass deportation. He's committed to do that. And I said this two years ago when we first started talking about it, the convergence in this summer. I gave a speech at Pinehurst, North Carolina two years ago. I said in the summer of 25, with the budget cuts that are going to have to come to try to get our budget under control, coupled with the beginning of the mass deportation of 10 million people.

You're going to get challenged in the streets, and you're going to get challenged in the streets of places like Los Angeles. Los Angeles County has, I think, up to 2 million illegal aliens here. So this confrontation was always coming. I don't think it surprises anybody. President Trump's handled it well. The polling's been amazing. American Club is back. So it's going to continue. I think it's going to get more accounts.

what about the random arrests that are taking place of just people who happen to be brown where you are you you've seen the ice squads kind of going in picking people up seemingly at random now if you could just identify the

people who'd come roast recently. Let me just finish the question. If you could just... But your question is saying just because they're brown. Nobody's being arrested just because they're brown. But you've seen random arrests of people who were sitting out standing outside Home Depot.

Well, hold it. I think what they're looking for is your citizenship, right? And right now, I don't believe any. There may be a couple, but of all the people that they've rounded up, they're trying to get $3,000 a day. I haven't seen, I don't think anybody's seen many people coming that's saying, hey, I was rounded up and I'm actually a citizen. Remember, an illegal alien that's here doesn't have due process rights.

This is their illegal alien in our country and they're going to leave. And right now, I think ICE has done it. I think ICE has actually been too slow.

The people around – a lot of people around President Trump, the Stephen Millers, the Steve Bannons, the war rooms are saying we ought to be much, much more aggressive. We ought to get this number to 5,000 a day, not 3,000 a day basically. Just let me ask a specific. Do you need the Insurrection Act to help make this happen?

They're using Title 10 right now. It's in the courts. Gavin Newsom sued yesterday, but it should be noted the judge did not, and this was Bayer's brother, the judge did not grant them a temporary restraining order. They're going to go to court to kind of argue that i think thursday tomorrow they asked for immediate stand down and they didn't get that whether title 10 holds up i know that's their legal theory or you go to the insurrection act

either one you know they've decided to use title 10 right now and pursue it that way the president's got pretty good lawyers we'll see how it plays out but you know they just backed us the other day on the uh on on the travel ban again you know the courts with this fighting we're having in the courts and it's huge because they're using this radical judiciary to slow us down to delay us to deny

And it's coming to kind of a head about his Article II powers as commander in chief. And I admit that this is a huge battle. And it's going to, I think, eventually go to the Supreme Court. But whether they use Title X or the Insurrection Act, that's their call. Legally, right now it's Title X, but it may shift to Insurrection Act. If it becomes the Insurrection Act, Steve, could you imagine a world in which, for example, elections were suspended next year if there was trouble on the ground?

No, I don't see that. First off, we're winning. We just won the election in 2024. And this topic was the centerpiece. And think about it. We got 47. I think we got 47 percent of 48 percent of total Hispanics. We got 39 percent of African. American men, the Hispanic citizens. Back us on this. A short story, in the Rio Grande Valley, one of the hardscrabble counties down there, Star County, Texas, is 97% Hispanic, working class Hispanic, the most Hispanic county.

in the united states of america hillary clinton wanted by 60 points in 2016. donald trump wanted by 16 points in 2024 and the people down there want to stop to the invasion they want law and order they don't want this continue the fentanyl the

cartels, the trafficking, all of it. They want to stop. And that's what Trump represents. I mean, if you see what's happened in LA when the city exploded on Sunday and for 18 hours, you know, I'd lived, Emily, as you know, in LA for like 20 years, 25 years, they shut down the 101.

They basically shut down the center of Los Angeles and we're burning cars and we're starting. Trump's just not going to tolerate that. If the governor's not going to step in, then he's going to federalize the National Guard, bring in the Army, the Marines and make sure that these cities don't burn down and they're not going to burn.

There will not be a repeat of the Summer of Love. You'll start to see mass arrests and you'll continue with the mass deportations. I hope, I advocated the other day for Tom Holman and these guys, for Tom to stop giving the interviews and to double and triple down. with ICE raids yesterday. And, you know, Tom said at first, hey, we were doing this as a cartel raid, the one that triggered a cartel raid for money laundering. I said, don't apologize.

You've got a mass deportation of 10 million illegal alien invaders. You're going to have to, you should double and triple down every day. You should get that 3,000 person number up to 5,000. Steve, as you know, there are some people who think that our attention is being directed.

to LA to take it off what's happened between Trump and Musk in the last week. The big, beautiful bill was normally at the heart of that bus stop. Can I just ask you, first of all... Emily, I disagree with that 100%. I just want to talk about the bill, though. How do you... Sure. Talk about the bill, because I wonder how Steve Bannon feels about billionaires getting tax breaks and cuts to Medicaid. Is that what you wanted to come into government to do?

no we're first off we are you know josh hawley's going to be on war room today we're trying to make sure the medicaid situation is totally sorted out listen we can't run two trillion dollar deficits

every year and that's what that's what we've been doing for the last couple of years and looks like it was projecting the future we have to get our hands right that we have to get higher economic growth kind of the uk is going through the same thing you've got big deficits you've got one percent growth i think the oec

said for the next couple of years. We need extension of supply side tax cut to get some growth going here. I would like, and I'm a huge advocate. I think the only way the math works is to not extend the tax cuts. For the wealthy, I think the upper bracket should do a snapback from 37% to 39.5% or create a new category of millionaires, put it at 40%. And I think they've got to start paying more taxes. So wasn't Elon Musk right then when he called it? a disgusting abomination.

No, hang on. But he would listen. There's people working nonstop behind this on the Senate side, the House side. Remember, our process is the Senate's got to pass something. Then it goes back to the House. They have to take it and repass something similar to it. conference. This is a complicated process that'll take the rest of the summer. People are working behind the scenes in the House, in the Senate.

on changes to this, right? On many changes, right? To make it even better, to make it even the economics better. What Elon came in and said, kill the bill. out of nowhere. I mean, he supported, remember he had full information on this months ago and never say anything. And here's the key point.

He lied to the president. He's a total fraud because he lied to the president about the waste fraud and abuse. He committed to $2 trillion, then $1 trillion, then $160 billion in this year. And what he did is let off the hook the political class.

on Capitol Hill for making deeper programmatic cuts. What he promised was in the waste, fraud, and abuse. Remember, he had this thing with Social Security and Medicaid. He went to the Pentagon. He came up with nothing. I have asked over and over again, can we actually... see the exact cuts that the Doge guys came up with that are not programmatic. You call for him to be deported now. Do you mean that?

Emily, we just had a great conversation with you guys about the mass deportations of 10 million illegal alien invaders. If Elon Musk, which I think is true because it's pretty open, if he overstayed his visa, if he lied on his new... application if he's here illegally why is a white south african billionaire any different from some some person that came up from thought they were invited by the u.s government that came up from central america you can't deport folks from central america

that are working as gardeners there illegally which we have to do and allow billionaires white south african billionaires to sit here because they're not i've called for an investigation on three parts because i think he's a national security issue number one

is the well-publicized drug use that no one with a security clearance would be able to have. I was a naval officer for eight years. My daughter was an army officer at West Point. You can't have security clearances and do that type of drugs. It'll be a formal investigation on the drugs.

It ought to be a formal investigation on his relationship with the Chinese Communist Party. Remember, he forced this briefing, a top secret briefing on the war plan with China that no government contractor would ever get. He forced that without the knowledge of President Trump.

Also, he was involved with this invitation to Xi to come to the inauguration. I think we have to find out what is his involvement financially with the Chinese Communist Party. And that has to be put out there because someone with his involvement.

wouldn't have a high security clearance. You have to investigate this whole issue of his citizenship. I'm of the belief that he's actually not a legitimate citizen because he overstayed the visa. We just the other day in the situation in Colorado, the Egyptian guy was here and overstayed a visa. We rounded up their entire family. I think that night that it overstayed their visas and we're going to ship them out of the country.

If you're going to do that to people for overstaying their visas, just because a guy's a white South African billionaire and the richest man in the world, you got to play by the same rules. If you don't do that, then you're not going to be able to sit there and say, hey, we've got to deport 10 million.

million people that came here illegally the rules have got to be the same for everybody okay so what do you make of his apology and should donald trump accept it first off it was not an apology it was 3 a.m he regrets some of the things look I equate it to a, he's a man child. I equate it to a, the man baby.

burping and throwing up his smash peas on his on his bib that's right in the middle of the night i would call that thus spake the ketamine i don't take any of that as legitimate it's it's not an apology it was snarky i regret some of the whatever the tweets is The people around President Trump and I think President Trump don't have anything to do with him. He's understanding now that he had full backing for the White House to do doge and to do other things.

And because he didn't deliver, remember the whole physical confrontation with Scott Besant came over this in the Oval Office, came over him trying to put a guy into the IRS. And Scott Besant, Secretary of Treasury, our highly regarded Secretary of Treasury and probably the star.

of the cabinet said no iris reports to me i get the president back besant they went out into the passageway and when scott they got into a heated argument about this topic and when scott brought up the topic that said hey you're fraud

You're a total fraud. You lied to the president and you lied to the country about the one trillion dollars of waste, fraud and abuse. You've come up with nothing. You've left us in a terrible position. It's one of the reasons you're having fighting right now on Capitol Hill. Do you think Besant punched? Was that where he got his black eye from?

no no i think that that was much earlier this was three or four weeks ago what happened is that uh i think elon got into a you know hit him and got down and like a rugby move and scott's a pretty good guy scott gave as good as he got But that was not around the black eye. That is still not. But they were wrestling in the White House, essentially. I mean, you know that? I would say it was more than wrestling.

Yes, I think it was more than wrestling. The black guy, look, anybody's gotten into a beer hall brawl, you know that came from a left hook. And it didn't come from his little son. It didn't come from X. No kid that age could pack that punch. Somebody hit him with the left hook.

So we don't know. And quite frankly, I don't know if it's particularly relevant now. Steve, did you know about the drug use and the ketamine and the stuff that has been kind of extensively reported in the New York Times and you're saying now? I didn't, I don't really keep up with that stuff. I didn't, I, you know, you hear rumors, but I didn't know about the two things the New York times did. I think we're very powerful. Number one.

Nobody knew about the, except people at the Pentagon. I think this is what's so powerful is that when the New York Times broke the story about the highly classified China war plan, think about that for a second, a defense contractor. asked for a highly classified war plant of China. Lockheed Martin doesn't get that general dynamics. You get small, tiny pieces of programs you're associated with. For him to ask that, and remember, the uniformed military services and the...

The entire Pentagon, including it looks like Pete Hex, felt he was so powerful in his demands. They felt uncomfortable, I think, even going to the commander in chief. That's why they essentially took out a front page ad in the New York Times. You saw President Trump when he saw it. there i think they had a press avail president trump's first response is elon would never ask for that it would be inappropriate

for him to have that. Number two is in the New York Times story on the ketamine and the drug use. It hasn't been refuted. The one time Eli got asked by Ducey over at Fox News, he kind of blew it off as their fake news. But my point is that you need a formal investigation. You can't go back and forth in blogs or in Twitter feeds or things like this. This needs to be, as anybody else would, if that was accused and you had people around that could be witnesses to certain of this behavior.

Anybody in the government, anybody that had a security clearance, any person in the uniformed services would immediately have their security clearance held in advance. It would be pulled until there's a formal investigation. And that's what I've been calling for.

should be held in abeyance as a national security threat. And there's three areas that he should be investigated. And if it turns out, if he is a citizen, if he's not an agent of influence for the Chinese Communist Party, and he hasn't been using drugs while he's been performing,

his duties with his security clearance, then he should be, you know, his security clearance should be back and it should be reinstalled. But I don't believe he should be heading either Starlink or SpaceX right now with these things hanging out over his head. Do you think President Trump is in the Epstein files? I have. I think no, no way. I mean, there may be a mention of him. He had a personal relationship.

with Epstein for years down in Palm Beach and that Palm Beach social circus, but absolutely not. That was just a cheap shot. And by the way, that was not the worst cheap shot. People have kind of hung on that because of the salacious nature of it. That's not the cheap shot. The cheap shot is really calling for his impeachment, calling for forming a new party, saying he's only going to be around for three and a half years. Emily, remember.

This Sunday, a couple of days from now, it's the 10th anniversary. President Trump standing at the top of the goal escalator, come down, which at the top of the escalator was in seventh place. When he finished that first speech really to the American people as a former candidate, he went to never one and never looked back. I just.

I just want to go back to that question, though, because if he is in the Epstein Files, if it comes to light that he is in the Epstein Files, would that matter, do you think, to his base? Not at all. Really? No, not at all. Not at all. He's not in the MC files as people think about.

all those things that happened down on that island. He's not in that. I think Cash Protero, somebody said he may be mentioned in some document related to it, but not that. People know President Trump knew this guy. He was part of the Palm Beach, I guess, social set.

for years and years and years. But no, President Trump's not in the Epstein files. And listen, President Trump's supporters are more in back of President Trump than they've ever been, because given all the ups and downs of putting him in prison and trying to assassinate, he's delivering on exactly what people...

people voted for. Look at the big, beautiful bill right now is not perfect, but it's going through. It's going to be a massive tax cut for working class people and middle class people. You see where he's actually trying to bring calm to these cities and deport the 10 million illegal aliens. invaders that came here welcomed by the Biden administration. He's trying to be a peacemaker whether in the war.

in Ukraine between Ukraine and Russia or trying to settle things down between the Persians and the Israelis or to make sure that the Chinese Communist Party doesn't attack doesn't attack Taiwan. They just had this London negotiation over some sort of.

some sort of trade deal. They're talking about trade-off between chips and rare earths and magnets. So on every aspect, President Trump's delivering for his base. His base loves him now more than ever. Can I just ask you a question about British politics? Because I know you've...

follow events on this side of the pond pretty closely as well. I kind of wonder of the current crop of our politicians, which ones you admire the most? I mean, is it... Richie Sunak, Nigel Farage, Tommy Robinson, or even Keir Starmer? What I admire the most is obviously Nigel Farage.

Been a colleague of Nigel's for, you know, decades now. And Nigel, I think, is doing a great job. We say on the show all the time, Nigel, we'll believe, will be the next prime minister. But is he right, then, to keep a strong distance from Tommy Robinson? Listen, British politics is very different than American politics. Obviously, we're very close to Tommy Robinson and kind of that more hardcore.

element, particularly about immigration and about radical jihad. You know, Tommy's a tough guy. I understand the British politics. I think Nigel's playing it perfectly. I think it's most important that this reform party get.

stood up as they're trying to stand up because it's quite hard to do that and become a major influence remember he already worked and got sovereignty back with uh with brexit which at the time when i first met him back in what 2012 2013 people said that was the longest of long shots i think niger is a very smart

politician is is become a great leader and he's british politics is different than america in america we would clearly want to see some sort of you know merger of of that type of element where it's it law and order you know not the far right that's kind of the

fever swamps. Nigel keeps a distance from it. And I think that's kind of their calculus of how they're going to get to power and actually save the United Kingdom. The Tory party's so feckless, so hapless. They had 12 years in power and look what they delivered.

It's kind of they're the equivalent of what we call the rhinos, the standard Republican Party here that the populist nationalists have kind of overthrown with President Trump. So I think Nigel Farage is one of the greatest leaders in the world. And I think what he's doing is very. very smart of how his rise to power to challenge both the Tory party and the Labour party. Steve Bannon, grateful to you. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Really, really appreciate you guys having me on.

The News Agents USA with Emily Maitlis and John Sopel. That was Steve Bannon at his most, I'm going to use this word carefully, but at his most professional, I would say. I've known Steve for about 10 years. I've interviewed him a number of times. And I think what we saw then is somebody who is no longer sort of screaming about a revolution, you know, shouting.

from the sort of sidelines about how terrible things are and, you know, what has to happen, is somebody who's kind of now right in the middle of, I don't know whether you'd call it Project 25 or whether you'd call it, you know, the sort of... the economic MAGA, but there's somebody who is very invested now in what is actually going on in the heart of government, although not sitting around the table.

It's trying to make it work. The old line is that when you're in opposition or when you're not in power, you're firing with blanks. And once you're in power, you're firing with live ammunition. And there is that sense that Steve Bannon knows that he has the ear. of the White House. He's very close to Stephen Miller. He's got all sorts of people that the kind of organic links between him and the White House are extensive. I mean, frankly, they always have been there. And that's why.

Bannon went to prison for three months for contempt of Congress. I forgot about that. Yeah, when he refused to give evidence to the Democrat inquiry into January the 6th. That, of course, wasn't an insurrection. What is happening now in L.A. is an insurrection. I mean, I'll leave you to decide the irony in all of that.

But Bannon does have the ear of government and he speaks to power. And the views expressed on his podcast by the base are a good way for Donald Trump to tap in to the concerns of Americans. And I think the thing that... Donald Trump is brilliant at. There's an awful lot that we could list where he's very poor. You know, the chaos. But his gut instinct of where the pulse of the American people is, is pretty damn good. I'll tell you what I heard in that interview.

I heard he is deeply uncomfortable with the bill in its current state. This is not what he wants to see. He doesn't want to see. Tax cuts for billionaires. He told us that he was trying to work out what was happening with Medicaid. In other words, the cuts to health protection for the poorest in America. This is absolutely not where he wants to be, but he...

hates Elon Musk more than he hates the bill. So he will never agree that Elon Musk was right when he called it an abomination. Obviously, you know, two things can be right or two things can be wrong at the same time. And I think he both doesn't think the bill is in great shape. and doesn't think that Musk is right to condemn it. He also frames the Musk argument with egalitarianism. How can we go after poor Hispanics who are mowing people's lawns?

If we're not going to go after the white South Africans... I'd take that with a pinch of salt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a clever way of framing it. Yeah, but there was a power struggle between everyone who's around Trump. You know, whether it's the tech bros or the MAGA bros, they're all desperate for his attention. And if Musk is getting too much, then everyone else...

And also Bannon will be loving, and you could hear it in the tone of voice, that Musk's discomfort and the fact that he has been slain. by Donald Trump and is on the outside now is great for Bannon because there was always a split between Bannon and Musk about the vision of what made America great again. Is it great to have Indian software engineers setting up tech companies in Bannon's

No, we want to do it here ourselves. We want to be self-generating this stuff. And the last question that we asked about Epstein, I thought, was really indicative because...

That was the bombshell moment. I mean, you talked about it on the podcast last week. The bombshell moment was when Elon Musk said, oh, and by the way, in case you were wondering, Trump is in the Epstein files. I thought he couldn't quite answer that. He was like, no, he isn't. Well, if he is, it's only in sort of a peripheral way. fine and then when we asked well would that be would that be off-putting to the base he's like no i mean there is something that is now properly untouchable

about Trump's relationship with his base, which is like, if it turns out he was hanging out and endorsing a paedophile, would that put you off him? Well, you know, Trump's been through so much with the impeachment. Exactly. face so many criminal accusations that this is just another one. So in other words, does absolutely nothing stick anymore? Not even Epstein? Would that not stick? If the economy goes to shit, that sticks.

That's the problem that Donald Trump has got. And that could be about illegal immigrants. where there are nobody left in America to do the jobs that you want them to do, of picking the fruit in the central belt in California or wherever it happens to be. And if the tariffs policy goes horribly wrong and there is a trade war with China, it gets bad and the bond market takes fright. Those are the things that do for Trump things about his personal conduct, whether he's.

self-enriching. I think that is a big thing. Self-enriching? Yes. No, it's a plain sight. No one cares. No, I think corruption will ultimately be the one place that the Democrats do their work. I mean, if they're going to do their work, that's where we're going to go. I remain deeply unconvinced about that. I thought your question about the arbitrariness of the arrests was interesting because, I mean, Steve Bannon...

was very quick to say, this is what he got elected for. This is why Trump's in power. Nobody minds seeing people arrested if they're illegal. And then he kind of said, well, maybe one or two. Like, well, we got one or two wrong. I mean, remember the whole Albrego Garcia.

You know, a man who was accidentally deported. The US government have changed its tune on that story and that man's life so many times. Was it an accident? Were they always going to investigate him for people trafficking, as they seem to be doing now? Was he on the wrong list? It has been unclear. And I think, I mean, this is sort of what happened in Doge is that there is so much just...

collateral damage from mistakes that nobody takes responsibility for, that nobody seems to revisit, that nobody actually gets to the bottom of. There is kind of no responsibility for what's going on at the moment. There is a lawlessness to who is rounded up, who is... picked up, who was sent where. And that probably is going to be a problem when people start to realise how widespread that is. Before we go, I got a message.

Well, I got a message from John last night. I sent you an email. Yeah, it was lovely. It was an email with my name and the producer's name saying, here are a few areas that we could talk to Steve Bannon about. Nice bit of prep. And then just as I was going to bed...

I got a response to that email from Tom Parker Bowles, as in the Queen's son. Yeah. Yeah, who was CC'd onto your list. I had put... the queen's son on the email rather than our editor tom hughes uh easy mistake to make um tom's very interested in cooking yeah so of course we were quite worried that he was sort of going to create a spin-off with the bannon

Bannon biscuits. Bannon baking. Bannon's buns. Yeah, Bannon's buns. Yeah, so that was a bit of a mistake. So, yeah, Tom. Tom, tell us what you think. Yeah, do tell us what you think. He said he was going to be listening to the interview. He was looking forward to it hugely. My bad. Sorry. This has been a Global Player original podcast.

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