Careers in Quantum with Anastasia Marchenkova

The New Quantum Era, a podcast by Sebastian Hassinger.

And Kevin Rowney.

Welcome back to the podcast. This is Sebastian again, flying solo. We're doing a little bit of a rewind after the last episode where we talked to Paul Cadden- Zimanskyy about the International Year of Quantum. This is now a rewind, to the final episode that I recorded solo at the Rensellaer Polytechnic Institute's launch of their on premise IBM System 1 Quantum Computer. So I did a number of conversations there, recorded a bunch of them, and this is the final one.

The connection that you build and, yeah, building those bridges, building the connections And, yeah, I tell people, I actually launched a course last summer, and I called it extroversion for introverts.

Oh, I saw that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, turns out it's a big need Yeah. For people in the field. It really does. Exactly. So much of science is driven by connections, and they lie to you in school. They're like, oh, if you don't wanna talk to humans ever, just, like, do science. Do computer science. And then you get, like, 2 years into your career. You're like, oh, now I have to go convince the manager that I need a new hire, or I need Right. Someone to collaborate with me from another team on this project.

Right? Totally.

It's It's a it's a hard topic, and I think we lie to people that social skills are not needed. Yeah. And then to me, you know, my pitch obviously for the course is, like, that's more important

Yeah.

Than the science abilities. Obviously, you know, not entirely true. But I

need some marketing.

But, yeah, you have to. Right? And even as as big as, like, your promotion packets and why like, communicating, my my adviser in undergrad was not a pleasant person to deal with, so we missed out on a lot of collaboration opportunities and papers Yeah. Because of that.

Back to your hiring thing. Yeah. That's such as, you know, that's a a mystical art of of hiring the right person that you can actually interact with and have, like, you know, a personal connection because you're going to be able to collaborate more effectively. It's just Yeah. Just by definition.

Yeah. There's a quantum company I know that they have scientists there that just refuse to speak to people. And I'm like, you you can't do this. Where's the CEO? Who's what like, why aren't these cracking skulls here

Yeah.

Saying, like, this is not acceptable. You are not in academia. And even then, academia doesn't tolerate that either.

No. And it well, it to me, it's one of the biggest red flags. Right? I mean, I look at certain companies and certain r and d teams in this space who are saying, like, oh, no. No.

No. Definitely. If you're stuck or maybe you're not even positioning it properly in and outside of quantum. I work with companies right now in AI and hardware. And, yeah, I push them to, you know, release fast. Right? Because what you're building this for this customer. Your customer customer might not care Right. In the end. Right.

Yeah.

It can be a quantum computer. It can be an alien artifact. Yeah. They don't care. Are they getting the results?

Right. Right.

In the end. But then I also you know, there is value in the research and the audience, you know, for what what I've been doing with, some of my clients I work with. I'm like, we have to post about the research because if you're gonna attract the scientists, they wanna know who they're working with Right. What technology they're working on, that they're actually doing real results.

Right.

That's one audience. That's definitely a valid audience. But then there's other side. Right? The customers, the clients, and how do we communicate to them?

Right. Right. Honestly, that's why I think what you're doing is so vital. Right? I mean, you have a scientific background. You have a PhD.

I actually don't. I dropped out of my PhD.

Okay. You were enrolled in a PhD.

I was enrolled. So my mentors were like, this is the perfect thing. My startup mentors, they're like, you're smart enough to get into the PhD, but smart enough to get out. And they're like, it's perfect.

Perfect. Perfect. But, yeah, I mean, there's this huge chasm. Right? I mean, if we only cater to what the customer wanted, we would be doing generative Ai

Some have pivoted to that.

Some have pivoted and that's there's

Yeah. Definitely. I mean, through my own platforms, the idea was I just kept getting asked the same questions over and over, and I got tired of answering them Right. Over and over, so I decided

to start

writing. Right? I actually started writing pretty early. I think it was I was still in grad school. It was 2014, 2015. And that's really what when I started getting into the security space as well because I was living in DC

Right.

Which is very intense in in that. I was not a US citizen at the time too, so that was also very fun. But, it was a lot of these okay. We we've heard about Quantum. We know there's some overlap, but what is that overlap, and how do you explain that to the to the audience?

Which is such a startup mindset. Right? I mean, that's that's like the lean startup. That's like MVP. It's like, you know, release and, like, test with customers and all that kind

of stuff.

And that's, you know, where this this field is emerging out of a scientific domain. And a lot of the people who are leading that are brilliant scientifically but they have no experience with bringing products to market like and and in fairness it's not really a product yet. It's an idea of a product. So it's very tricky even like technologists are struggling, you know, like product people are struggling with how to deal with the state that Quantum is in right now, it feels like. Yeah.

Yeah. I this is really interesting. Right? So I've actually I so I don't know if you know my background here. I why my my career went off the Yes. Rails in some way, but I I did my undergrad. Yourself. Yes. I'll introduce myself and my crazy career journey, and I I'll try and tell the story in an in a way that makes sense. But I think one of the big things in my career that I was very lucky with my mentors is that they pushed me to try things because what's the worst thing that could happen.

So I

did neutral atom quantum memories for 3 years, which was really great to just have an adviser who got that early in.

That was Georgia Tech, you said?

That was Georgia Tech. And, this is a question people ask me a lot. Why how did you pick quantum computing? How did you know this field would explode? It's a very frustrating answer to them because I said I emailed 1 professor in the lab. It was a biophysics lab. And they said, no. You need to have taken optics. And I was still just finishing my 1st year. 2nd lab, again, I'm just, like, randomly reviewing people in the department.

Because of soldering.

Because of soldering. Right? And it's just like those little bets and those little things. And, again, I I was lucky because having someone in academia, I knew how this works. Yeah. Right? You know, it's like, how do you get a lab position?

Right.

They're not posted anywhere. You have to just go.

Yeah. Be be useful. Yeah. Yeah.

Ask, be useful, and just, like, put in a lot of hands on words.

You know, we had Dori Darnov on, and we asked the same question. How do you get into sort of quantum information theory? And she said the per I think he he was her adviser already, or she was considering, doing her PhD with him. Just handed her, Deutsch's paper and said, you should read this. It's really interesting. And the next day she was like, well, I'm gonna do that now.

Exactly. And sometimes it's just like going for it. So I I was in the lab, and my adviser yeah. It was, like, the 1st month I spent building laser locking boxes from scratch, and the first one took me 2 weeks. And then I got a lot better at it. Right? And then after semester, yeah, he handed me some papers, and he went, there's an empty room right there. Build this experiment.

Cool.

And Wow. I mean, amazing amount of trust, right, to to have in an undergrad. But I think, you know, it's

You must have soldered really well.

Soldered really well. Actually, you know, the

robots, man. Good good background.

I mean, honestly, like, those little skill sets made me surprised. And the next year, I remember we had 4 PhD students come in. My adviser was notorious for being very difficult, and I didn't know that. I went to a conference and I told them I was in his lab. People were like, oh, you must work, like, 20 hours a day kind of thing. So he was notorious for this. I didn't realize that at the time. But, Yeah. You did the work. You came in the next year.

Yeah.

You got through it. But yeah. So so he was very open and and, you know, just amazing people in the lab in general. Obviously, the PhD students were amazing. Still keep in touch with them to this day.

Yeah.

Which also sounds very obnoxious. But I took Python. I declared as computer science, I believe. Yeah. Computer science major. I took Python, and I got, like, a 108% of the class. And I was like, okay. This is great.

Now that's a humble brag.

A humble brag. Nobody believes I actually know how to do stuff. I promise, guys. I know how to do things. And, you know, I was Georgia Tech too, so it was great deflation. So I was, like, very proud of that. I had some coding experience, obviously, coming in. But I kind of sat there and I went, okay. Computer science is great. Computers are amazing, but I wanna use this as a tool and not as my new main field

of study.

So then I started looking more into the sciences, and I went to bio for a semester. I did genetics. I was kind of interested in bioinformatics. So when I started trying the chem engineering stuff I loved the classes, actually. But, again, that hands on work is what really convinced me that I needed to go try something else. So what's the worst that can happen? You leave after a semester, and you say, like, okay. Well, fun.

Right.

Not for me anymore. Right. You know? And I think

It doesn't sound like you were in a rush to just get through it. You wanted to find the right path that felt right.

Right.

Yeah.

Right. And I I don't think I thought that at the time, but I was like, what's the point if not? And I never really, I guess, thought about the long term career, but I was like, oh, well, like, I grew up around so many academics. I was like Yeah. I'm gonna go apply for a PhD

and do

that, and then I'll figure it out. Right? And I'll I'll always get to work on something interesting then.

Right.

It's It's always gonna be cutting edge. And then I got into physics. I was like, this lab is amazing and just, you know, did the degree there. Then my last year of college actually crashed the servers on my university, speaking of just doing stuff. Me and my who eventually became my cofounder, but one of my high school friends and and college friends, we had this little app that we built, and it became popular.

user. Oh, dear.

It was horrible. Not even every user. I think, like, every page. Oh, my god. Horrible. And then we just kept switching IPs. Thank you, AWS. Finally, they figured out how to, like, block the range of IPs and shut it down. But a a professor in the computer science department found out because he couldn't access the systems all night, and they basically had to send a postmortem being like, these 2 idiots, like, did this. It's not our fault.

Yeah.

Do better. But he was the founder of a company called Damballa, doctor Merrick First. He was a professor in the computer science department, and he just opened a basically called us up, and he was like, that was amazing.

I'm writing

you a check for seed funding.

Nice.

You're joining. Right? And so I was like, well, this wasn't part of my plan, but it's a summer. It's 12 weeks. Right.

Right.

Like, no way. But I wanted to stay in the program. Right? So I forced myself to do this.

And Well, and you're looking for things that made you struggle. So And

I was I was really looking for things that made me struggle. Exactly. And he was one of the first people, and I think this is definitely a problem in education across the board. It's like the kids that are good at school kind of get left not even left behind, but they're like, oh, you're good at it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not jealous. Yeah. We have to help the ones struggling.

Right.

Studying. And at some point, yes, I stopped faking it, but, actually, I'm still an INTJ on my you know, to these this day, I still test in the no way. Really. I feel like we flock together, the INTJ. For sure. Because because it's supposed to be a rare one, but I I know a lot.

Go back and forth between t or f. I I score right in between the 2.

Interesting. Yeah. I've tested INTJ since, like, age 10. I'm still I, but, like, obviously, I've creeped up over time on the e, but I'm still an I. And and I also look at that in terms of, like, where I get my energy from.

Exactly. Exactly. You gotta recharge after you're around a bunch of people.

Exactly. I I go

off I mean, I see other people. You can tell in E, they're, like, they're ramping up as they're exposed to other people. Right? They're getting more energy. It's like, no. I've got a battery.

Yeah. And I love talking to people in the field. Right? Like, it it's such a good conversation. It doesn't seem hard, but, yes, at the end of the day, I'm gonna go back, and I'm gonna be like, I need an hour on my laptop to just, like Yeah. Decompress. Yeah. And, like, I I need my Internet Totally. Totally. To be able to go to sleep where it's too much.

Yeah.

So yeah. So that's how I got into startups. And so we built that startup. I actually ended up we started pitching. So, again, I went through this, like, 12 week really rough process of, like, nothing you've learned actually matters anymore. You have to figure out customers. You have to figure out how to build this. And then I actually ended up deferring my grad school admission for a year because the company was going well. We had funding. So I was like, I wanna kind of see this through.

Yeah.

But here's a new opportunity, and that has kind of stayed over time. And so, yeah, then I went I sold the company, actually. So after that year and a half, we ended up selling the company.

And this is was this a cybersecurity startup?

It was actually an educational technology. So we were helping this was when Coursera and Udacity had just really started.

Yeah.

And we realized and this was also taken from my experience. As a physicist, you have a lot of skill sets, but you're not the expert in any of them. Mhmm. So one of my jokes is that physicists are great coders. They're horrible software engineers

Mhmm.

Because I like, training training physicists to code, you know, they they can write lines of code and it will work, but you can't put it into production. Right?

Right. No. It'll produce charts for a paper, and then they throw out the code.

Right. And I'm like, yeah. This is not scalable. I was like, speaking of product leaders. Right? I was like, they're like, we can just, like, zip this up and send it to I'm like, no, we can't. Yeah. That is not acceptable as a thing that we're gonna do. And yeah. So ended up selling the company.

Right.

But because we're a third party app, we could. Right? So we asked our, you know, people in our app, like, do you want us to help you find you a job? We can help you train you up. We you can have free courses. We can help get your resume in a good place. And then to the companies that we're looking and especially coming out of Georgia Tech, it was a good place to hire. Years ago, say, like, we have people qualified and have taken extra

Right.

Classes. Right. It's gonna be much easier for you to hire them out.

It's a good model.

Yeah. So we did that for a little bit. And, Yeah. It was it was a fun time. It changed my life. Right? And then I went back to grad school because I was like, well, I don't know what to do now with my life, I guess. You know, I'm gonna pursue the career path that I always thought I I would want. And then yeah. I mean, I coming in with that experience was really interesting because well, first of all, I was a little more comfortable than most grad students I'm sure.

Yeah.

And luxury building and not living with 5 other people. Right? And I also got the full ride scholarship, so I also didn't have the TA or RA. Amazing. So I was sitting there, and I was kinda like, well, this is kind of boring. Like, what am I actually gonna do?

Where's the struggle?

Yeah. What am I gonna do for the next 5 years? And, again, this is where I, like, was really about seeking out mentorship, and I always looked for that. And I would go into the labs, and I'm like, well, the professor's never here. So I'm gonna sit and lock myself in a basement for 5 years, and I don't think that's a very productive way to do that.

It was super early.

It was super early. So it's 20 I

guess D Wave had been out for or had been funded for about 3 or 4 years, I think, at that point, but I think Rigetti was the 2nd funded Quantum Star Right. That I'm aware of anyway.

So Right. So super early, and I

Very serendipitous.

I reached out, and at that point you know, now there's a quantum industry, but at that point, how many people there that had quantum and startup experience? Probably only me.

You were a unicorn on a unicorn's wall.

Right. And so I left, and I was like, this is a interesting opportunity. So, yeah, I was very early stage at 2014, 2015 at Righetti. And so it was interesting. Like, I moved all around the quantum stack too.

Yeah.

I need to fill it.

What did you do at Righetti initially?

Everything.

Yeah. You know? Boy, you

it's a startup. You do every I I painted the column, the brand color. Like, you know, I did that, hiring, you know, operations, and then also, you know, in the technology side as well. Right? And at that point, I'd also been, you know, doing coding more and and building all this stuff up. So I started getting stuff like getting all the the lab stuff set up. Early stage, I still remember the that day just getting that delivered.

It was

like a mess. Right? And getting that all set up. And so, yeah, did everything, which is also a very interesting phase. And, yeah, now there's quantum startups everywhere, and I've also moved a little bit into the investing side as well. So I I did an incubator for myself, called VC Lab.

Mhmm.

So just to train emerging folks to, you know, launch funds. And it it's an interesting time because one of the issues I see with quantum startups right now is, like, I feel like the hardware players are kind of already into place Mhmm. Right now. They have the talent. They have the money. Okay. You're gonna raise even even if you do a huge series a. I've seen 15,000,000 series a in Silicon Valley. You're still not gonna really hire the best folks out there. Maybe you can get a good team.

Yeah.

Right? And I think that's the thing. It's like, I'm keeping an eye on some teams and startups in in this time, and it's it's just a little early. And like you mentioned, like, the product is just not fully formed yet.

Right.

So what I see that companies that are successful doing right now is, you know, we're in a really rare space where we have that DARPA, the non dilutive funding. Mhmm. And people can actually spend a few years working on that and doing really well in the space. And I do think there's a space right now for start ups kind of in the middle where Mhmm. I warn venture capital folks, like, this is probably not gonna be the $1,000,000,000 company.

Right.

But there's still a lot of opportunity in this space if you wanna do do a company. But, again, you have to build a product. You can't just do a research paper. That's not getting anywhere.

Of middleware that that helps me with the way you're defining that? Because it's a it's a term that can be used Yeah.

That's true. Well, I'm thinking of of things like Quantum Benchmark. Right? They got acquired by Keysight, and then they did, like you know, they have a really good product for a very specific case that's gonna be very useful. But the market size of that is just not

Yeah.

There to

the company. Wonder about those types of plays setting an investor up with visibility. Right? I mean, because if you have skin in the game, even if the the opportunity size isn't, you know, the the $1,000,000,000 range or whatever, you're in the space and you're seeing it evolve and you're through that startup. You're getting a sense for where the market as a whole is and the traction points and the you know?

Yep.

And you have to be really close to it to start to understand like what does that mean for the the forward progress and and is it just in one direction? Is it just we're heading towards logical cubits or actually those three things sort of pointing in 3 different directions? Like, do do you think you get that kind of like, an investor can get that kind of insight by by being, like, onboard with a a startup at this point?

That's interesting. I've I actually consulted recently for a VC firm, and I not sure they made the right decision, right, on that. Because, usually, I would just be like, call me. I'll tell you everything. Like, we'll we'll just have a talk, and I'll I'll tell you where where we are in the market.

Have given away the information for free?

Yeah. I mean, they they called me anyway to talk through the the pitch deck. Right? Because, again, a lot of the investors, they they get a deck, and they send to me. They're like, I don't I have no idea what these words are. But it's interesting. Yeah. I'm seeing a lot of, companies popping up right now. Well, not popping up. They've been around for a couple years, but coming in from the cryogenic side

Mhmm.

Yeah. Which, again, right, you start seeing being so connected. Yeah. So I could see the venture capital folks also looking at that. In the last few months, a lot of acquisitions in the photonics space. Yeah. Right? So unless you're kind of plugged into the market, you don't really I'm curious. Right? And and you you because we see the research and these things, you're like, oh, and now I think I know where they're going.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can connect the dots.

Exactly. But it takes a long time for an investor to kind of get into the space and especially the higher level. And, of course, at the higher level, they're gonna be looking for the market traction and and just making sure that they have the talent and and everything to actually succeed. But there's a lot of pressure. Right?

Yeah.

Whoever they want and just put them there and just be like

Yeah. Hang out.

You hang out. At least you're not working for the competitor. Right? That's that's a strategy that companies have used in the past.

You you mentioned DARPA. I just wanna, like, return to loop back to that for a second. Like, do you think especially on the hardware side, as you said, there's sort of you get to b or c rounds, and you're talking about huge amounts of money. Mhmm. The the private capital markets are not the most welcoming right now. Do you think that makes the public sector sources of funding even more important at this point for for on the hardware side in particular?

I think so. Yeah. I I think so. It's, again, it's non dilutive funding Yeah. Which is amazing. They're kind of your first customer Yeah. Guaranteed. Yeah. In the contracts, there's always a licensing agreement if you can get to a point, which is great. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. And having been in the space now for a long time and seen it over and over. Right? It's it's so mind boggling to me. Like, being in Silicon Valley, we're both there. Right? The I've run sell selling companies for 100,000,000,000. They get 0. Yeah. And everyone's like, people do nothing. They're amazing. Congrats. Like, we're gonna go party, and they're like, I am miserable. I spent 10 years of my life on this. None of my employees got any cash out of it.

The cap table. Yeah. I know.

And and I'm like, well, my friend sold their company for 10,000,000, and they kept 90% of it. Yeah. Yeah. They're actually doing better. Right? But it's not, like, the trendy thing. And

Right.

People are chasing around trends and, yes. And so, yeah, I mean, those funding options are fantastic. And I think a lot of these it's actually a meme that I I posted not long ago, which is, like, you're hiding an engineering services department in your deep tech start up, aren't you?

Right.

Right. So, again, these are different business models. Right? It's like, what is actually scalable? Obviously, the first company that builds a quantum computer is not gonna have problems with customers.

So they

came out with the Google Quantum Groups. Super interesting. Right?

Done. Right? You're Guillaume, I think?

Actually working with Normal

Oh, okay.

Who's, Patrick Kohl's Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Competing with Guillaume. Competing?

2 players

in the thermometer computing space.

Yeah. It's a it's a spicy, topic there, there, but it's super fascinating. Right? And I think one of the things we've been talking about at this conference we're at is how much quantum is enough to teach. Right?

Yeah.

To run that before their very specific customer and use case, it's a game changer.

Right. Right.

Now when they have the hardware Right. Flip it on.

Right.

Right. And it's gonna be huge.

And that was the BlackSimo value proposition in a sense. Right? It was, like, purpose built machines that were not universal, but they were tailored to a specific algorithm or use case.

Exactly.

I thought it was super smart. I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. But you're you're actually getting more expensive in saying, like, take something learned in the quantum information science space and apply it to a thermodynamic or some other kind of exotic, maybe even just straight classical, technology and and get the the economic value out of it that exists right now.

Yeah. Why not? And I think that's something that I've started approaching problems with where it's and this has been my theory. So I worked in graph theory in HPC for a while, and it was because so as a startup, this company I worked for, we had we were one of the top 25 Google customers and spent like, we spent 1,000,000 a month on Google Cloud. So it's a lot of money Mhmm. Because of all the data we are processing.

And I

learned this. I was like, this is a lot of data. Like but we have to do it right. Right now and this is still happening, but because I was in that space, I see this, like, little lining starting to appear where a lot of companies just throw GPUs, CPUs at problems still. They can get away with it.

Yeah. Math is up.

Like, spend 3 months on one problem.

Right.

Right? And it was funny sometimes that they're like, oh, you only submitted 1, like, one line of code or, like, one commit in 3 months. I was like, that commit saved $2,000,000 a year. Commit in 3 months. I was like, that commit saved $2,000,000 a year. Leave me alone. But that's you know, data is not gonna get smaller in the world. It's only gonna get bigger. Yeah. More companies are gonna start running into it.

Like, resource optimization. Right.

And that's all, like, we've been working on with quantum, but I'm like, let's take a step back. This is huge.

It's a bigger problem. Yeah. Yeah.

This is so important to do. And, Bliximo, we've always said this, but even now, there's been more of this, like, QPUs.

Mhmm.

Right? They're they're gonna work alongside supercomputers and data centers. They're not gonna be just in the research lab. You're you're gonna have to work with all these other chips, and I think that just market is just gonna expand over time.

Mhmm. Okay. So we're that's a very good setup for a closing question, which is okay. So, I mean, you you've described this, this narrative in in terms of your kind of personal path, what do you see as your next, what do you want as your next struggle and what do you, what do you want to be when you grow up? I mean you've done so many different things. It feels like, you know, you you got your choice of just about any path forward if you'd like.

And, honestly, it's a very obnoxious problem to have, but it still is a different problem to have. And I literally last night, I was, like, changing my Twitter and Instagram bio. I'm launching it. I'm gonna be launching a new series. You you can hear it here first because I actually haven't talked about it anyway.

Right. Right.

And I think just getting more exposure to deep tech, making it cool. Again, like, I connect to the investor space. They're always, like, tell me the new deals kind of thing. So I wanna really reach out. My friends are working on such cool companies. So I'm gonna launch that and then do deep dives on these, like, new industries, cutting edge industries. Go through the papers and be like, this is the hallway conversations

Right. Right.

That we have. Besides that, I'm pretty in some ways, like like you mentioned, I have my pick, but I'm also unemployable because I have too many of my own ideas, and nobody wants to deal with that. They want me to sit down and, you know, do this thing. So, yeah, over time, you know, I definitely want to you know, I'm going deeper on the investor side. I don't know what that's gonna look like over time.

Well and, I mean, it sounds like, you know, communication and, trying to connect those disparate kind of communities back to where we started. It's trying to connect the, you know, the scientist or the technologist to the end customer and explain both sides to the other. Right? Yeah.

Exactly. And I have this, like, deep desire. I'm like, I kinda wanna start a venture backed company again. Desire. I'm like, I kinda wanna start a venture backed company again, but I'm trying to really first step back.

Right. You still have a scientist inside?

Oh, I I do. I do. But, yeah, I have this, like, long term I've been really, like, trying to think about Brian Johnson. I saw him on Friday in Santa Clara last week or Saturday. They were doing a roast of Brian Johnson. And he says something really interesting about how he doesn't work for the approval of people today. He works for the approval of the people in the 25th century.

Wow.

And I was like, that's interesting. Like, what do I build on that? You know? And and for me, education has always been a big component of it. Like, you know, helping companies. What does that 25th era look like? I have this video game. I love Alpha Centauri back from 1999 that I still play from time to time. And there's a faction called University of Planet

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Or the, you know, the the researchers. Right? I'm like, I need to build that tech tree. Like Right. What if we create a university of, like, the high-tech topics? Mhmm. We talk a lot about AI software eating the world, but I, you know, I don't remote all this. People are always gonna live in houses. They're always gonna need stuff.

the back of my head. Questions are more interesting than the answers in some way. There there is your struggle. Right?

That's the

thing you're trying to set up.

It's it's yeah. Thank you

so much. Because I feel like we could keep on going forever because there's so many topics, but, I really appreciate your time. And this is a great conversation. And I'm sure all of the things you are doing, you're gonna have fun and do all kinds of valuable stuff for everybody. So thank you.

Thank you.

Okay. That's it for this episode of The New Quantum Era, a podcast by Sebastian Hassinger and Kevin Roney. Our cool theme music was composed and played by Omar Khosda Hamido. Production work is done by our wonderful team over at Podfi. If you are at all like us and enjoy this rich, deep, and interesting topic, please subscribe to our podcast on whichever platform you may stream from.