Welcome to the new manager podcast. I'm your host, Kim nickel. Hello. I am glad you're here. It is a beautiful Sunday morning as I'm recording this. And I'm really excited today because I want to share with you a conversation that I had. With a good friend of mine. Her name is Teresa Torres and she runs a Blog called Product talk. And Teresa is a product coach, and she works with teams to help them make better decisions by learning.
Knowing how to implement continuous Discovery in a really useful way. And she and I were talking because I had posted on Facebook about how I had coached some of my students into getting their work to pay for their professional development and that was a conversation that she has a lot with her students as they look to get outside resources and funding to take workshops and to get coaching.
And so she wanted to talk with me about How I do that and about how I help my students with accessing personal and professional development budget, that they might not know, is there? And so, I am going to share with you the conversation that we had all about that. And before I do remember, it is January. It is the beginning of the year. So this is a great time to be thinking of what kind of professional development.
Do you want to support you as you become a better leader to become a more equipped manager, for all of the changes that are happening in your company and in your Mystery and really just for you as a person, you know, one of the ways we stay engaged in our career, and our company, and our work is by continuing to grow and to feel supported and to feel curious and to feel excited about learning and mastering new skills. So, this is a fantastic time to be thinking for yourself.
What does that look like? And to be starting to have conversations with your manager with your whoever's in charge of HR or In charge of Learning and Development or they might call it people Ops in your company, this is the great time of year to be doing that. Okay, let's go into the conversation with Teresa. Alright. Hi everyone. I'm Teresa tourist, with product talk. And I'm here with my good friend, Kim nickel, Kim. Tell us a little bit about who
you are. I am a coach, and a teacher. And in San Francisco, where I live, I teach this Workshop called managing humans essential skills for new managers and let's just stop there. Yeah I love it. Okay, so tell me about managing humans. How did it come about? What do you teach?
Good question so it came about because in the last few years is I've been doing more work in corporate Learning and Development and a lot of the companies I work with have really big budgets for especially for leadership development for their highest level people.
And for people that are just making the first step into managing people, they might not Lee managed, they might be, you know, product managers, they might be EAS they might be thinking, oh, like, that's the next level for me, is to have a direct report or sometimes. It's a person and they say, Hey, you know, we just got an intern for the summer and they decided I should be in charge of them since I'm finally. And I know what, you know our department is doing, but I don't
know how to manage people. So I was seeing this a lot and I thought, oh, I would love to create something. That was really bite-sized, really small, really Really useful and really helped people at that very first step of how do I manage people, because I might be really good at doing this thing on. My keyboard, I might be really good at designing this thing, but the actual managing of humans is a very different skill set.
And most of us don't get the guidance that we really want when we need it. So, I partnered with General Assembly, which is this really cool organization that has Workshops and teachers all around, professional development. And I said, hey, I want to do this workshop and they said, okay, so it started like that.
Well, that's great. So, one of the reasons why I wanted to talk with Kim is because she had posted on Facebook, that she had just helped one of her managing human students get their company to pay for the general assembly class. And Kim was really excited about that and we had a conversation around for me with product. Talk. I have a lot of students to ask me, is it safe for me to ask my company for work? Is it safe for me to ask my company to pay for training?
How do I do that? What does that look like? And so we decided to have a conversation about how people can do that. And for those of you that are listening on the audio, Kim is beaming there right now, which is exactly why I wanted to talk to Kim about this, because she clearly loves this topic. Yeah, this is my favorite favorite conversation and I realized I started having this conversation. Shouldn't in my workshop that people would come and I realized oh people are paying out of
pocket to be here. And people were not telling their boss, they were coming to this Workshop that, you know, they had found it on their own and they had decided they wanted to come. And they, they were afraid that if they told their boss, it would somehow reveal some kind
of deficiency about them. And I realized, okay, we need to have a talk because there's a completely, a new a That way of thinking about this that will help you tremendously not just in this Workshop, but for the rest of your life, and especially at work, because learning how to be an advocate learning, how to make an, ask is really important. It is a skill that you absolutely need, especially as you manage people. Yeah, this is great.
So let's just okay, so obviously there's this skill of. How do you advocate for yourself? Let's dive into this a little bit more so I work at a company. Maybe I am and maybe I'm a first-time manager. Maybe I'm even an individual. Contributor aspiring to be a first-time manager. I am interested in some trainings, on whatever topic. Why should I ask my company to
pay for it? Yeah, so you think about this consider that their number one, there might already be a budget for Learning and Development, so, If you show up to your manager or to whoever's in charge of Learning and Development and maybe at a company where that doesn't even exist, it's just, you know, a small start-up. I see a lot of those too, but let's say that you realize. Okay, there is a skill that I want to get better at.
And when I get better at the skill, it will make me better at my job that I will become more productive. I will lead people more effectively, we will get more done in less time because I know Now, have a skill that I currently don't have. So, you've now identified a gap and you've identified a path towards addressing that and you've completely taken your own initiative. So, number one, you're exhibiting a leadership skill by saying, hey, I noticed this Gap. This is what will help me to
improve and get us there. What's our Reimbursement policy can I get reimbursed for this? And when you frame it that way, it's not from a place of of, oh, I have a deficiency. And I'm revealing something about myself, that's bad. This is you. Stepping into a leadership role of saying, hey, I notice there's this Gap. I want to take steps towards it. How much, you know, what do we have in our budget for Learning and Development?
This this quarter or this year and the other great thing is that your boss has so much else to do, they really don't have the time to look at where you're at and You know what you need to do next? You need to grow by learning this skill. Here's a workshop for you to take. Here's someone to study with because everyone has too much to do.
And so when you show that you're taking responsibility for your own professional development, and career growth, you're also doing a favor for your boss and you're also showing that. Yeah, I'm engaged and I'm invested in bettering myself to better the company and the opposite of not growing is being Stagnant and is being complacent and none of that is really a good look. I mean, you know, it's okay to signal to others that you are eager to grow that.
You have ambition, your company will be uh, you know, we hadn't even thought of that. Thank you for bringing that to our attention and bringing us a solution, which is also the great thing. Yeah, I love this. So I think for a lot of people, it's really, they really yearn for their boss to give them professional development opportunities. I love that you're highlighting that everybody has too much on their plate.
They don't have time that when you're proactive and you ask for some professional development budget. You're actually solving a problem for your boss. You're not creating a problem for them to address. Let me ask a question though, because let's say, this makes sense, to me, if I'm a new manager, feel like, I've just been promoted to my first management role. This makes a lot of sense for me, but a new role, there's new things for me to learn, what if I want to do a training that's
related to my current job. Sobbing. It's not a promotion, it's just related to what I'm already doing. And I have a little bit of fear that I should already know that the conversation is still kind of the same. And the fear of oh I feel like I should already know that I'm sad to tell you that may never go
away. That becomes a true life thing about being an adult, and being in a world where things change a lot, your job is not to know everything and if you're in a role it's because You are the person who is there and so let's make the most of it and do the best you can. If you come again from this conversation, not that, oh, there's something I'm not good at number one. There's something that all of us are not good at like we're
always a work in development. So when you're in your current job, the great conversation you can have is, hey, even though, you know, I've been in this job for a year or maybe I've been in this job for three years, I really want to get better at XY and z or you start the conversation of Been wondering, what would it be like to do this but in this other department or what's next for me you can still introduce that conversation from
a perspective of hey I want to continue to contribute to the company in a more powerful way. Can we, how do we do this? Yeah, it's really freeing to let. Go of your job is to know how to do all the things and to really take that kind of continuous Improvement mindset of today. I'm pretty good at my job, but I want to be even better at my job or I want to help my company even more. Yeah. Do you've mentioned Learning and
Development? A couple of times I know for a lot of people, they work at small companies that don't have Learning and Development departments or I could just never heard that term, but I know even small companies have professional development budgets. Can you just talk a little bit about that concept? What does that mean? What does someone need to know about some funds that might already be available to them?
Yep. So Learning and Development is essentially the idea that you are continuing to learn. Learn and grow in your profession. And what becomes really interesting is that the higher you go very often, the less technical that learning becomes and it becomes very much about relational skills. How do you manage others? How what is leadership look like? How do you communicate effectively or persuasively? And all of that is the intersection of personal growth and professional development.
Whether that as a formal, task that someone is in charge of And every company is different. Whoever is in charge of HR whoever's in charge of talent, whoever's in charge of people will have some awareness of what do we doing for professional development, to continue to develop and grow people and sometimes it shows up in h.r. because it's another way of showcasing that. Hey, we as a company, have a culture that cares about you learning and growing as a
person. And sometimes that is part of what makes a person choose. I want to work at the company where I can grow. So companies are understanding that nobody wants to get stale that everybody wants to continue to learn and so they will be often they'll call it. Sometimes a learning stipend or a personal development, budget.
And some companies will designate a certain amount of money that each employee gets and over the course of the year, you can spend that money however you want as long as it's related to Learning and Development. I could buy a book, you could take an online, course, you could hire a coach, you could go to a conference and every company treats, it differently.
What I often find is that a lot of companies, even the really large ones that I work with where they have thousands of employees and a really big Learning and Development budget. They're not always good at communicating, what's available to their team or to their staff or to their employees, and it's easy to miss those. Those messages because, you know, your inbox is full and you're busy doing the job of
doing your work. So very often it's simply kind of flies under the radar and people don't realize there's something available for them and so sorry. Should I let you not go ahead so I have this one. I also want to tell you the class that I teach at GA is $40. Really, really accessible. That's why I notice everybody was paying out of pocket and I had one student and and I had told her, I'm like look if you're here and you paid out of pocket, that's great. Because it shows that you care.
So much about your ability to do a good job that you're willing to put your own money in on it. Why don't you just open up a conversation? Go back to your CEO. This was a start-up with 12 people. They had no HR person, they had no l and D department and they're just trying to survive. I have early stage startup and I said just ask hey what's our policy?
Can I get reimbursed for this and she was able to not only get reimbursed the oh yeah of course hadn't even thought hadn't even thought of it but that makes sense. And you know it's also a lot easier to pay for this 40 dollar class than to negotiate salary or time off or something really
big. But then what happened afterwards is. Then she went back later and made another ask because she wanted to take my five week program, which cost quite a bit more, but she successfully made her case about why this would help the company grow. Why it would help her to more effectively manage. All these new people, it would help with onboarding so people could get better faster. And the cool thing that I love, most is when her boss said yes, You can take this course for a
couple hundred bucks. She said, wait a minute, it shouldn't be just me that benefits from this. What if we, as a company decided to make this an official policy and as a result of that, she came back and said, hey. So now as a company, we now have decided that every employee gets $1000 that they can use in the year for any professional development that they want. Yeah, that's great. This is something that I see quite a bit.
So someone will email me and they'll say, hey, I really want to take your course, but I can't afford to pay it for whatever reason. And I always reply back and said, have you asked your boss like, have you talked to your company about this all of the courses that I teach our core skills for product people? Clearly your company should be supporting you getting better at this. And always is a little bit of resistance around.
Marty, a product manager, I should already know this skill and we talked a little bit about how do you reframe it. Like you, of course you know how to interview a Summer, let's supercharged that skill. Let's help. You get even better at it. And more often than not people come back and they say, wow, I already had a professional development budget, I just didn't know about it. And I think that's the really powerful part here.
Is that whether your company has a policy or not, your leaders probably care a lot about the growth of your staff because that's how the company grows and evolves. So I love that you're highlighting like there's probably already dollars there for you to spend that you have the freedom to look at. Yeah, and what you're what you
shared with me? Also, reminds me that there's a big mindset shift that must happen in the course of your career and in the beginning, so much of the mindset is I have to figure this out by myself and it's part of our identity of being Scrappy and being resourceful. And I will, I will do this on my own. I don't want to bother anybody, everybody else is really busy, and we want to step away from that a bit and step into the mindset of oh this is how I'm helping.
Typing, I'm going to take responsibility for myself. I'm going to ask and see what's available and if they say no, okay, then I'll figure out what to do, but they might say, yes, they might be excited to say. Yes, it might help them tremendously for them to say yes to me, but I have to ask first, I think you're hitting on something that's really important here. And that a lot of times especially with negotiating and I'm not even sure this is a negotiation. People think about if I Ask for
too much. I'll be viewed negatively and I think it's the opposite, right? Even if the answer is no, you're still going to gain respect by wanting to invest in yourself and asking for help for that. Yeah. And related to that is so much of the way that you asked.
So it's not like you're, you know, hey can I have this could I have, could I have that, could I have this you're not asking from, from either a place of, you know, like from an energy of I there's something that I want you to give to me, right? It's not it's not quite like that and I would say it's the scent. It's it's it's a very collaborative conversation, it's a conversation of, we are in this together and I'm moving in the direction that will improve
things. How do we make that happen? How do we do this? And so when you create that sense of collaboration and not like I'm asking permission or I'm begging or I'm showing up with nothing asking someone who Has everything it really puts you more on that even footing and it's a very different kind of conversation. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, can we role play this a little bit? Like, I hear, here's what I get from people a lot.
Do you have a letter? I can send my boss, like, I don't know what words to use, so can I give you a few scenarios and then you tell me like how you would make the ask? Yeah, let's try that. Okay, so let's start with Connie, you're managing humans class. So I'm a First-time manager. I might have direct reports for the first time in my career. I know some basic things to do because of how I've engaged my boss. So I'm doing one-on-ones with them.
But people stuff is hard and I really want to level up my skill, but I also know, I was just promoted and I kind of feel like I already have to know how to do my job. What do? And I think my company as a professional development budget, but I think my boss has to sign off on it. Yeah, IMA doing.
What do I do here? So, if your teeth Thoughts immediately come to mind number one, if you're in my class and have already paid the money, then it's really great because you can go back and say, Hey I want to be even, I want to be really, really good at this. And so I'm doing everything I can to really set myself up to be a great manager. I already paid for this but I wanted to check. Do we have, can I get reimbursed for that? Can that fall under my professional development budget?
And especially when you make a small ask, it really also sets you up from this position of you're not taking advantage. Integer being greedy, right? Oh, I know this class was $40, or this class was $199, or this class was $250. Your company probably spends much more on paper in a day than that. And this isn't is going to help much Beyond. So when you've already made the investment, you can always start with something.
If you're afraid that they'll say no. Number one is, you can start with something you've already done. And then let's say that you haven't taken this class yet. But maybe you've seen it. You can go. I want to do it but I'm not. Really sure the way I would coach you on.
That is, I would say, have a conversation with your boss because you're going to have a one-on-one, most of us have one-on-ones weekly, or at least twice a month and when you have that conversation and you're reporting in on.
Okay. So now that I'm in this role, I'm realizing there's bunch of things I want to get even better at and I know that you're really busy and don't have time to Mentor me and I know that, you know, internally maybe we have a workshop that's happening for our new managers six months from now, but I want to hit the ground running. NG. And so I found this class that will help me to get better as I go.
And give me the support that I need and you want to fall and then you can pause and see how they respond because they might say great done. If they have an objection, you want to listen to what is it? That they really care about. So they might be worried about, oh well, who's going to do your job while you're taking this fun class?
Or they might say, oh well we really need all hands on deck or they might say well budgets really tight right now and so instead of taking this as a shutdown know, you want to take this as oh great. You're telling me what you care about. Here's how I can present this. So it's an alignment with what you care about. About and why you don't have to worry at all, and this is actually going to make your life a whole lot better.
Yeah, that's great. We can talk about things like, I'll do it in my own time and here's how it will help me. More be more effective in my day job, or you can really kind of address that objective rather than addressing. Every fear you have in your head about how they might react. Exactly. Okay, so let's talk through another scenario because this is the one that I get a lot with the courses that I teach. So I teach really skill-based product management courses and I get a lot of that, like,
resistance around. I should already know how to do this skill and I especially get it from people more senior in their career. So they might be 15 years in. They might even be a leader of teams and they just feel like the world changed around them and that they are like it's really hard for director. Of product to say, I need to take a skill on how to interview customers, because there's this feeling that like I should already know how to do that.
So how would you coach someone? That just sort of has that fear around? Isn't this something that it's just part of my job that I should be doing? I'm really glad you're saying that because that gets to a very important and very emotional block that that people have and if you don't Don't get through it, you are going to really paint yourself into a corner and plateau and you really cut yourself off from improving and getting better. And number one is that I want to see it like this.
People and the way that we work it is not a static thing and so the thing that's really nice is when you're wanting to continue your learning and especially if you've been the person who had to figure it out and never had official guidance. You never had training, I have people come into my new managers workshop and they say, well I've been managing people for like 15 years but I never got training on it. And so what they say when I ask them, what great like, why are
you here, what? You want to learn today, they said, I just want a fresh perspective or they'll say, I know that there are probably things that I could be doing better, but I've never had anyone to talk with about this.
And so, the great thing is that number one, you will also realize in the course of learning that there are things that you didn't even realize you're doing that are really, really great and when, you know what those are, you can then amplify them and put more energy to them. And you'll also notice, though, there are things that I could be doing better. And I had never even thought of that, because I've been just figuring it out all of this
time. And one of the things I love about being, especially in a group learning environment, is that you will learn so much from the other people. And if you ever get the chance to be in a learning environment with people who do not work with you, you will learn even more because you'll feel more relaxed, you won't feel like you have to manage your image or manage the relationship because
you have to work. Everyday, you can learn so much by people who are in different industries by people who are at different stages of their career and who work in different
companies. So I always recommend people to do that when we can, yeah, you're raising a really good distinction, so there's kind of this distinction between a performing mindset in a learning mindset and a lot of our lives at work is we have to operate under a performing mindset and we can learn while trying to perform but it's really hard. They interfere r with each other.
Whereas I think in a course you can set that performing, mind set aside and really just focus on how do I practice and how do I learn what's in front of me? And so, even if it's a skill, you've been doing all the time in a performing context, you're really going to level up in a learning context, I agree. Okay. So tell me a little bit about like are there certain times in my career when I should ask her budget? Like I hear from young people that are like I'm in my first year.
I can't ask For anything more or people even really senior that are. Like, I should spend my budget on my team, not on me, tell me a little bit about who should be asking. And when yeah, there are a few really great times of the year, when it's very natural to bring up this conversation, anytime you're doing performance reviews. So your annual performance review, mid-year reviews, whatever, that cycle looks like in your company. Because that's usually a time.
When everyone is in the mindset of, let's take the high level picture of, how are you doing? And where are you going? Where do you want to go? What do you want to do next? What do you need to get better at? What do you want to get better at? That's also when you have the conversation where you might say, you know, for the last three months I've been working on this really intense project and I've realized I need to get better at having difficult conversations because right now,
I completely shrink. I'm so afraid in this person. Totally overpowers me, or on the other hand I end up. Everyone is always mad at me because they say that, I don't listen or because I To direct and blunt. And now, I don't know how to get this done because nobody wants to talk to me and deal with my emails. So anytime there's a performance review, conversation mid-year, or quarterly, or annual is a great time, also rule of thumb
towards the end of the year. So Q3 and Q4, because that's when any existing budget is now going to need to get spent. It's also the same reason why we get so many ads for eyeglasses. You know, like, At that time of year, use your use your FSA, use your HSA funds, it's the same idea if your company has budget set, aside their suddenly. Now looking at that saying, oh my gosh, we need to spend this money by the end of the year. Otherwise, we'll lose it or it'll go to this other
department. So that's another good time to ask. You, let's break this down a little bit because I think it's counterintuitive for people that are not involved in the budgeting process. So if my company decides to spend a hundred thousand dollars a year on professional development, and we get to November and only 25,000 of it has been spent. Why is the company motivated to spend that 25,000? That's remaining. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you mentioning this because it does seem
counterintuitive. You think. Oh I'm doing such a good job of saving the company money and I'm not spending it but if the money doesn't get spent that suggest that either whoever was setting that budget did a bad job and that money could have been spent someplace else. So obviously it makes them look bad. Like, oh my gosh, she put too much money but it also can make it Go away next year so that oh we obviously we budgeted twenty five thousand, we only spent 7500.
So next year, we'll have an eight thousand dollar budget instead, and then the person is like, oh no. But there's this really significant thing that we are going to need at this time. And so, it just creates more complication, and it creates problems for people. If there's budget set aside, then the job of the person who allocated that budget is to make sure that it's used appropriately. When, Come up and say, hey I have this really great ask and you've got budget for it.
The person who's at the budgets can give great. I did the right thing by earmarking twenty five thousand dollars so that this person could do that thing. Yeah, I think there's also this element of when the company is setting that budget. They're saying we want to invest this amount in professional development like for us to be
successful as a company. We need to be investing this amount in our employees And So It Goes On Unused it kind of raises this concern of like we are we taking the time to develop our staff. So it really is like you're helping Everybody by using that professional development budget and also hey, we care about professional development. So we're setting aside this budget but if no one is asking for it, maybe they don't care about it.
Yeah. Maybe you know, we should just buy them something else instead so it's a way of signaling. No, this is good. Like we're on the same page here. Okay, great. So we've covered a lot of ground. I think this has been really helpful. Can you think of anything else that people should know about asking for professional development budget?
You know, just if it's if it feels scary, it's probably because you've never even never made that kind of asked before, get really curious about what's the underlying emotion? Are you like? What are you afraid? People will think. What are you afraid? It means about you if you ask because that will be very valuable for you to know in order to get through it. I also am a big fan of making the ask in person rather than by email because you have more control.
Roll over the message and you see how it lands people are busy, they read things really fast, it's easy for them to then just neglected and get to it later. So if this is something you really care about have a conversation and and I will tell you, it's a lot better to practice on something small first. Before you make the really big ask for, oh I want to go to New York, to take Teresa's workshop for a weekend, or you know, whatever. The big thing is that you want.
So Have fun practicing with small things first, get good at that. And then you might find, oh, that's actually really beneficial to everybody. Yeah, this is love this, because this is so consistent with sort of the product world that I'm in of starting small, iterating
from there. So you might even start with, hey, I just want to buy a book, it's related to my role and then you might graduate to the 40 Dollar General Assembly class and then you might generate to the graduates of the couple hundred dollar five week class, then. Suddenly you're going to the big conference and you're just each iteration is a small test fix giving you permission to try the
next test. Yeah and the thing I'll say to is get really curious about all of the different ways that you can learn and grow. I'll let you know what we all learn differently. Some of us really like online learning some of us like being present in a classroom. Some of us want a book to read some of us want one-on-one coaching and it and it might just depend on what's going on in your Life. When a, what is the kind of learning that will help you the most?
I have had people go from my 40 dollar co-chair of my 40 dollar class to then engaging me. One-on-one. And their work pays for that too. Yeah, because they take my class and they come back and they say, oh my gosh, I found the woman who can coach me through this challenge. I have at work and, you know, and they get that, they get the budget for it to work with me one on one, which is, you know, one of the higher offerings that
I have. So, it's It can be really easy to just think your job is to do your job and just be heads down in the work of it. But the bigger picture is your job, is to promise to be an amazing human and to enjoy learning and growing and continuing to help and uplift those around you. And so that requires that, you take that step back from time to time and think about what would I like to learn? What do I want to get better at 0? And you know you don't have to
focus on your weaknesses. Let me just say I'm really not good. This one thing and now that I know that I will direct my career in a direction that allows me to really amplify what I do excel at. Yep. You know, I get this a lot with my interviewing course. I get people that say, I've been interviewing for 20 years and it's that same thing you're hearing in your management class.
I want a fresh perspective, I want to reinvest in this skill because it is a strength that I'm relying on week over week. And I just want to see what's out there, and I think that's a great mindset of, it's not just about About patching up your weaknesses. But how do you keep reinvesting in the engine? That's driving your roll.
Yeah, and you know, I feel like the one that I that we haven't talked about that, I want us to just touch upon, you know, with you and all the coaching that you do. I know you're very much in the tech world and I live in San Francisco. And a lot of my clients, and a lot of the work I do is in the tech World, both the very early stage startups, but also Global media Empires.
And what's interesting and fascinating to me, is that no matter What technology C creates a no matter what technology can do for us. Nothing works. Unless humans can connect with each other and work collaboratively together and learn from each other. And so it's always a value to invest, especially if you're in the tech space, we get very focused on the technology and we forget the value of learning how to be a great listener.
How to do those those wonderful. Client conversations and interviewing and how to manage others. We tend to take that for granted, but it is so important we do and, you know, the community piece of it like, as a course designer with my, interviewing course, I spent so much time on the instructional material and overwhelmingly. The feedback I get is, how much people loved meeting other people in the course and how much they learned from other
students. And I think there's, it's so easy to get caught up in our world and how our company works and just having that opportunity to connect with other People and see that. There's lots of ways to do the same thing, really refreshing and empowering. Absolutely agree. All right. Well, Kim. If I am interested in your managing humans class, how do I learn more about it? You can go to my website, Kim nickel.com. And that's the easiest way to find out what I'm up to.
You can also follow me on LinkedIn. I often post, you know, my classes and my workshops and photos, but from clients and workshops and things, but I'm very easy to find online. Awesome! Alright. Well, thank you so much for doing this Kim. I think it's going to be really helpful for to a ton of people my pleasure. It's always a treat to talk with you. Awesome if you know it's time to level up but you feel your perfectionism Self Doubt and uncertainty getting in the way.
Then come work with me. We'll have six months of one-on-one coaching and it all starts by going to my website. Kim nickel.com coaching and joining my waitlist talk to you soon.