The only thing I wanted to do, I swear to God, was like I wanted to sell enough books that I could continue writing books. That's all I really wanted to ever That's the story of success though. You all were pumped about today. Uh, we have Craig Johnson. You should know the name. You're probably going to know the name that he created that he's associated with, but, the Longmire series, was, from 2012 to 2017, I believe it was.
And, uh, then it became, I think we can go out and find it on Netflix now. And it seems like it's one of those shows that's becoming ever more popular, not to invoke somebody else's work before yours. But I didn't know what I consider one of the greatest movies of all time is Shawshank Redemption. It was not a hit in the theater, which is wild. When I heard that again and somebody spoke about that year ago, went, what? They're like, yeah, it didn't do well.
And it actually was the benefactor of DVDs. And everybody started getting these DVDs. thing is, like, you sometimes, you know, a piece of art has to find its audience, you know, and I'm firmly the belief a lot of a lot of the time, like, those are the good ones, you know, because if it's all things to all people, you know, it really can't be very good looking when you get right down to it. Did you think when this started, cause you're at your, you're on the book tour right now.
Like everybody will talk to you about the book. We'll hit on it. So people go buy them, but I'm really interested in understanding like who Craig, the person is, who the human is this guy from you cross Wyoming and, this past in this journey, we talk about entrepreneurship, but listen, being an author and what you've done, it's entrepreneurial as hell. yeah.
Right. Well, I mean, I remember when I was a kid, I wanted to be an astronaut, like it and then I decided, okay, the odds against that are so great. Why don't I do something safe, like try and be a professional writer, you know. So yeah. And that was like, you I really, that was the whole, you know, idea behind it.
mean, you know, because I thought to myself, because people, I remember when the first book came out, like that, I was kind of, you know, amazed like that, because all my friends and family and everybody you they were a little in you wrote a book, they were a little incredulous. And my money, they were a little bit too incredulous. Like, as a matter of fact, kind of hurt my feelings a little bit.
Like, I just, know, it's one of those things where you don't talk about it or anything, because why embarrass yourself like it. And so then when I finally wrote that first book, you know, and found the voice that I needed to find it again, and also decided to do something that was like, maybe a little bit different, which I think speaks more to the entrepreneurship part of it like that.
mean, a lot of times when everybody's running in one direction, you'd think about running in the other direction. And in uh crime fiction at that period in time here about 20 years ago, everything was like noir. Everything was all like gritty, urban, know, alcoholic divorce detectives burying bodies in their backyards and all this. And I thought, well, what if you did like the sheriff of the least populated county in the least populated state? That'd be something different, right?
So I'm a genius, right? Well, of course you are. Yeah. the problem, well, the problem with that is how many people can you kill in that county before it really gets kind of ridiculous? don't know. Walt has killed a lot, right? What's going on here? You know what? twenty-one I decided at that point in time that I was going to have to spread his jurisdiction out a little bit.
And so, mean, if you got somebody who's really good at these cases and that kind of thing, you know, got 23 other counties in Wyoming where those sheriffs are going to look for somebody to jump in the foxhole with them and help them with these investigations. And I've had walled up in Montana, like on the Northern Cheyenne reservation, the Crow reservation over in Sturgis, like over in South Dakota, like that, you know, and all over like that.
There was one book, the third book takes place in Philadelphia. The fourth book takes place in Vietnam in 1968 when Waltz starts out as a Marine investigator in Tan Sonet Air Force Base during the Tet Offensive. I think you just have to make sure that you're not grounded so much that you feel trapped. You have to be able to find ways to allow that to expound. Just a 21st iteration. Return to sender. Do they just keep getting better? Is this like fine wine?
You know, but you know what that sounds like is the question I always get every night like at when I'm doing these book events is which is your favorite one? I'm like that's easy. You know, again, they said which one is it? I'm like the one I'm working on right now. Well, the other thing is like, you know, in all honesty, you're not even being a smart aleck about it. Like for God's sakes, I got to be even. You know, that's the one you're submerged in right now.
That's the one you've done all the research, you know, you're in that creative process with it and everything. And so it's obviously going to be the one that you're the most attached to at that point in time. it's not, you got a problem on your hands. So, was Walton alter ego for you? oh I don't know. mean, you know, well, okay, my wife has the best quote about that. She says that Walt Longmire is who Craig would like to be in 10 years. He's just off to an incredibly slow start.
And I can't argue with that really very much like that. But yeah, I mean, you always imbue, you know, a character, especially, you know, one that you want, you know, to kind of carry, you know, a novel like it or a series like that, because the first book, The Cold Dish was just a standalone book. What is supposed to be a series? And so you imbue them with certain talents and abilities like that.
But one of the key elements, I think, in these types of characters, maybe in any type of writing or art, is the old saying that you like people for their virtues, but you love them for their faults. It's the things that are wrong with people that really draw you into them for numerous reasons. And so Waltz had a lot of tragedy in his life. A lot of things happened to him that I have not. I wouldn't trade places with him, I have to admit.
Do you think that I've never been an actor other than when I was a kid, the high school plays and all that, but you had to really get into the character to do it well. Is being a writer the same way being an author? yeah, like there's a uh lesser known mystery writer you may have heard of, Tony Hillerman. He actually had a really great quote for me one time, like he said, well Craig, you just got to sit in all the chairs.
You have to able to sit at the table, like it and be all those characters and give them all a fair shake. You know, whenever you're doing murder mysteries, of course, you you've got a new antagonist pretty much every book, like it for your protagonist to go up against. And the thing I always think about with that is the Northern Cheyenne have a saying, which is you judge a man by the strength of his enemies.
And so whenever I'm thinking about Walt in a book, I'm thinking, okay, is this really going to be a challenge for him? Because if it's not, then I'm not going to bother writing that book. Yeah, I think the big fans that have gone through the 20 books, they're expecting something. Oh, yeah. yeah, yeah. And it's nice because I'm with the literary press, so there's no formula involved. mean, all the contracts for my books, all they say is just that it must be a mystery and have Walt Longmire in it.
So I can get into a lot of trouble. When did that start? When did they start giving you that freedom? know, it was pretty much from the get go like that. really started out, know, as Viking Penguin, look at, know, and they're, you know, they're a big press. They're like a hundred years old. I think they're having their hundredth anniversary this year like that. But they were really great like that.
And I remember, you know, Catherine Court, who was like the president of Penguin and one of the senior editors at Viking um when I, when they were, you know, in production, you know, with the cold dish, like I was there in New York, like at Times Square. Walk me across the street to the Barnes and Noble, this big five story Barnes and Noble and walk me back into the mystery section. And I mean, my gosh, it was huge.
And she looks at me and she goes, and this is 20 years ago, there are 250 hardback mysteries published every month. And I remember looking around at them and going, you know, how is anybody ever going to find me? And she looked at me and she goes, that's not your job. That's our job. Your job is to write good books. That's all you have to do. How many times you think she took people across the street and did I don't know. I'm hoping it once. at that. She did. She absolutely did.
do think you can take from that experience? Maybe to be an author in your book. mean, that's really significant because, you know, I was talking about this book study that we're doing right now, and it's really about, um, the art of people is listening to people uh and, you make them feel like they're the only one. And she did that. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's a question of focus, a lot of it.
that, mean, we never, like even, okay, like this is a case in point, like last night at a book signing, like I had never met 200 people there like that. And so, every time somebody comes up, like to get their book signed or something, I make sure that I make eye contact with them, shake their hand, like that, talk to them a little bit, sign their book for them, like that, and let them know that I appreciate the fact.
you know that in this you know world that we live in hustle and bustle that they came and stop for a minute just to come to this bookstore and meet me and talk with me about this book and these these books mean something to them like it and so if you can't give them a couple of minutes of your time like it with absolute focus like it well then you really
don't deserve their readership it seems like to me and I think that that's an important thing for people to learn like that is is that you know you can just skim through your life but that's what you're going to do is just skim through your life you know you really have to live in those moments like that you have to be there. you know, for those moments, like to make it all worthwhile. Who made the Craig this guy of integrity? Oh, I don't know. I don't know.
I mean, my parents were, you know, they were big readers, like that, you know, and, you know, and they had strong feelings about it. mean, and they fell into a lot of those maxims of like, you know, if you remember my father saying early on, he says, two things you can't ever be afraid of getting your ass kicked or a day's work. And I took that to heart like that. And I thought, okay, like, and so and I think that's a lot of it.
I mean, you they, they, they, and I still believe in the things that they believed in the sense that, you know, If you really believe in something and you want to work hard enough at it, you'll succeed at it like that. But you really have to go after it. You can't do it halfhearted. When did this journey start for you? Because we're only 20 years into this. It's like that guy that worked really hard before that, where'd that start?
know, a lot of it was like life experience just like traveling around and like trying to, you know, bring as much, know, to the table as I could, because the writers that I really like are the ones who actually did other things. You know, they had other, you know, livelihoods like that and other experiences to draw from. They didn't just graduate from some writing school, like and start writing books about writing students, writing, write books about writing students and all that.
They had lives like it. And so I thought, okay, well, you know, let's try and get as much experience as you can like it to bring to the table. And so I did look at and then of course, you know that the other thing that happened was I delivered horses down out of Montana like and found that little spot. You cross like at population 25 like at right the confluence of clear and piney creeks the base of bighorn mountains.
And I thought, boy, if I was to build a ranch, this would be where it is that I want to build it. And then I discovered something really, you know, incredibly disheartening. Did you know you have to buy property that they don't just give it away anymore? kind of in that business. That's what I thought. Yeah, I don't think they've ever given it away. I'm pretty sure you have do something. Oklahoma you had to run out there and stake it off real quick. know what I've seen?
I've learned in life is anything that's given away. It's probably not worth it. Probably not. not. uh So what makes what makes Wyoming like it's one of the states I haven't been to and what's funny over the past decade seems like the country's been rushing there. Yeah, and you're probably stay away. Well, I don't know. I'm not one of those guys that wants to just slam the door behind me and say, that's it. Nobody else. I mean, we have a couple of things like that.
You know, I think before we were getting started, you were discussing grizzly bears, like that, you know, and then there's the moose and then there's, you know, the rattlesnakes and then there's everything else like that. But the biggest thing we've got is we have a winter. And so I kind of laugh about it like that because we have this festival that we have every year called Longmire Days like that, where we have, you know, everybody that's fans of the books and the television show and the TV.
You know, the actors all kind of, call it a FEMA disaster with actors is what I call it like that, because basically what happened was I remember the first year that we did it, um, all the banks and ATM machines and Buffalo ran out of money, all of the restaurants and you know, grocery stores ran out of food. The one little cell tower that we had suddenly had 16,000 extra cell phones on it and melted to the ground. at it.
so. you know, it was a you know, an economic boom like that, you know, for the area like that. But nonetheless, it was quite a challenge to try and do it like that. But a lot of those people will show up and they'll you know, come there and it's fantastic because it's in July, it's really warm, it's beautiful. The mountains are all gorgeous with snow on them and everything like that.
And everybody's like, you know, I think I could move here, then they get into your business and think about buying some property like that and all that. And I'm always telling them, you know, you might want to come back in like January or February just to get a little bit of a taste of what the winter's like. Tell us about little bit. Tell us about it. Is Buffalo close to you cross? Why'd you choose there instead of you cross? It actually had a little bit of something.
You know, I mean, it was it's it's kind of Durant, you know, it's the wall, you know, city. It's like, you know, Walt's town is what it is. I mean, I don't even change the names of the streets or anything. So it's kind of like, you know, Frank Capra esque when you walk down those streets, like it, it's almost like walking into one of the books or something. There's a busy B cafe right there at the Occidental Hotel, I get there's, you know, all these things like it that are in the books, okay.
And so, you know, it just seemed to kind of fit like that. And anyway, they had a better infrastructure for putting up 16,000 people that are at all 25 percent. The do they have the statue of you yet? not our needs that use me and they might someday my deal stature wall but they will stature here's the Maybe they can do a statue of Walt with you like polishing his boot or something. Like me standing to the side, you know, with a pen, you What about these Wyoming winners?
Uh, they're a little rough. Like, and I mean, we just got through one like that here, uh, where we had about a two week period where, know, it dropped down to about 40 below and just kind of hung 41. Yeah. 40 below. Look at it. And stayed there for like about man. Oh gosh. Like about two weeks. Look at, and so it was kind of brutal. What did what's old sheriff Longmire what's he do with a below 40 degree winter?
You know, he does all the things he normally does, but with a lot more effort, I think is what boils down to. So did you, uh, did you know this guy when you were young and his name was just something else, a real human. No, I think I just basically it was kind of a Dr. Frankenstein kind of thing. I mean, you one of my favorite quotes about writing is the one from Wallace Stegner, who wrote, was the teacher of the Stanford Writers Project.
One of the things he said in a little book that he wrote called Writing and Teaching Fiction, the greatest piece of fiction ever written is the disclaimer at the beginning of every book that says nobody in this book is based off anybody alive or dead. And what a crock that is like that because that's what you do. You take people and you put them in your books. Walter was a little bit different. He had a little bit of a Dr. Frankenstein kind of quality to him.
I wanted bits and pieces to make the guy that I wanted to make so that I could tell the stories that I wanted to tell. So when all these young authors come to you and say, how do you do it? Get that question a few times. Tell me what to do. I have a better question. I What would you go back and tell the Craig, tell Craig to do better? m calm down. I think we were talking about that a little bit for the show.
Look at I think you know that there is something I mean, it's always a balance like that because that edginess and uh unease like that and uh nervousness and all that electricity and energy that you have when you're young, you know, you don't want to lose that like that because that's a magnificent catalyst for making you you know, make some of those like headlong leaps into something that your more older and saner person would say, that are you crazy?
Don't even think about doing that for goodness sake. it's so, you know, it's, gotta be careful when you say, you know, what would I trade and what would I change like that? Because some of the things you would change that you look back and say, yeah, I don't know if I want to do that. Like that might've been the reason why it is that you ended up where you are.
the what do you think the next after these 21 because everybody's how many more are there I'm you might you don't even know well you know well, I mean, the thing is, is like all of the books are based off newspaper articles, which is kind of nice, because what it does is it kind of grounds walled in a reality of what's really going on, you know, in the contemporary Rocky Mountain West, you know, I I sometimes read books that take place in my part of the world, not to say to myself,
there's no way that would ever possibly happen. It's ridiculous. it. And so I don't ever want to challenge that. want to have things that real sheriffs deal with. So that's kind of important to me too. And then the other thing is, if anybody has a problem with it, I can always say, well, here, meet Sheriff Goody Pickering from Big Horn County. He can tell you how that actually happened. And so I've gone around for 20 years collecting newspaper articles.
Mark, I've got a um file folder that's like 10 inches thick of newspaper articles that are going to foment another Walt Long. I'm going to die before I get them all written, so what's going to happen? Is it okay that these characters in these series of books, die with the authors? You know, I think it is like it I mean, there are there all of these estates now, you know, that that go out and find other authors, you know, to ghostwrite and do these type of things. And, you know, I don't know.
I mean, I suppose, you know, I guess if if if they say that's okay, but you know, before they pass, like, and I would imagine like that, but I can't imagine that most of these authors would really go along with that. I think that, know, you kind of take them to the grave with you to a certain extent. This is like basically the Egyptians, like everybody's coming with me. Yeah, yeah, I'm afraid so. But James Bond lives beyond Sean Connery. know, know.
And the other question I get all the time is, like, well, you know, is there any possibility that you'll ever have the same response like that Arthur Conan Doyle had with Sherlock Holmes where he got so sick of him after a while he threw him off the Rhine's Bec Falls. can always look at him and go, well, first of all, Walt's not a sociopathic coke addict. So that gives me a little bit of an opportunity. get to hang on to him for a little bit longer.
you, um, how much, what's your level of enjoyment? If we can rate this from a zero to 10 of being the creator and still the author of this series. Oh, full 10. Full 10. I mean, that's the thing that's, you know, the I mean, it's funny because you were asking, you know, like, you know, what, what is it that younger authors, you know, sometimes Alaska students or something like that. And a lot of times they, kind of miss the point.
They'll come in, they'll say, well, what's it like to have a beer with Lou Diamond Phillips? You know, what's it like to go on these, you know, European tours where your books have been translated into all these languages and everything. And I always look at them.
I'm always thinking, you do know that that's only like 5 % of what my life is that the other 95 % is locked in a room by myself typing about my imaginary friends look at okay so if that's not what you want to do I mean if you want to have the paparazzi chasing you around and you want to be a celebrity and all that kind of stuff maybe being an author is not what it is that you want to do like that I mean if you really enjoy you know that contemplative
aspect of sitting down at the beginning of every day and enjoying you know being in that kind of introverted you know kind of world like that where you can escape into your imagination like and create all of that Well, then that's the world for you. But if it's not, then you shouldn't do it at all. One of my favorite quotes about that is Picasso. Look at, know, somebody asked him one time and said, Are you ever intimidated by that blank canvas?
Look at me turn around, look at him and said, that blank canvas ought to be afraid of me first thing in the morning. Exactly. I recently heard the news and different things. fall in stuff, but think Ben Affleck recently said, Hey, I hear so many people say they want to be wealthy and famous. He's like, take the wealth. Right. I think that we have no idea. yeah. What it's gonna be. No, not at all. Not at all.
I mean, you know, it might sound like it's fun there for a while like that, but then after a while, I would imagine that would get very, very, very tiring.
I mean, I see it a little bit, you know, with the actors that come in, you know, for Longmire days like that, you know, I mean, they, they, you know, they put in a 40 and found like that by the time we get to the end of that long weekend, because people were just tugging at him with their sleeves like that and you know, and trying to get a picture with them and you know, trying to get them to sign body parts, you know, and
all this kind of stuff like that on a full time basis like that and you know, I just kind of stepped back and every once in a while somebody will say, know, well, do you get a little, you know, upset by how much attention the actors get and you don't get quite that much. I'm like, no, I'm happy. If I had my way, I'd have them around me 24 seven so they could take care of all that themselves. I wouldn't have any of it.
said, you still get to have the benefits of being the guy that's done all this. But I mean, I think if you talk about how much do people what's the town now? So if it could only if it was overloaded at sixteen thousand cell phones, could hold a hundred thousand now like is it has the infrastructure built up? no. So they like that. They like to like, hey, we're just going to deal with this for a weekend. it's, you know, it's, a 4,000 person town like that.
You know, it's got like basically one block is what it's got like that. And, I still remember like that, you know, the first time that we did anything like that, I, it was me sitting on front of the busy B cafe, you know, at a card table with a number all over top of me, signing books for people. And amazingly enough, a couple hundred people showed up like it.
And then the office of tourism for the state of Wyoming, um, took me aside and said, Hey, you know, do you think, you know, We could do this again next year and maybe get some of the actors to come. And I said, yeah, sure. How many, which, which ones do you want? They go all of them. And I was like, okay, well we'll see what they can do. Like, and they did, they all showed up.
And I remember going and picking up Robert Taylor who plays Walt, you know, in the TV show and picking him up and driving him into town. And when you go into Buffalo, there's a, flat spot here, like, and then there's a slight hill that drops down into that main street where the city hall is like in the county seat. And I remember pulling up there like that and the sheriff.
of county who I know extraordinarily well, like it, cause I have to look at, and his deputies all had blocked off the main street of Buffalo. And he turned around and gave me the, you know, the horse eye look at, and you know, and Robert had asked me, he said, how many people do think are going to show up? And I said, I don't know, maybe a thousand or two. I don't know. And then we looked down there and then suddenly they were like 15, 16,000 people. He's yeah, exactly.
Yeah. He really appreciated my efforts. So you strike me as a as a Dodge Ram three quarter ton guy. But 250 not 350. It's unnecessary if you're not pulling all the stuff. all that. No, no. And that big, you know, 7.0 diesel, it'll do the job with either four wheels or two. You guys don't have the speed limits out there, do you? Can't you get on some open road? have the speed limits. at, know, the difficulty is that I'm kind of well known within the law enforcement community.
And so now I don't get tickets. I get lectures. Look at, I'll be honest with you. Look at, and so I get pulled over by these guys and they're like, Craig, really? Look at, I'm like, can you just give me the ticket? I don't want the lecture. Really? Look at, but no, they make me take the lecture. Oh, I think they're just, you know, they're, on, you know what this is like. You write about it. Like, come on, you're not supposed to be one of the law breakers. Okay. Write me that ticket.
See if you'll be in the next book. Let's go. What's your name? The, can you see your professional wife beyond this series? Oh yeah. mean, there's like, you know, there are standalone books I've got like about three or four that I've already started.
And, uh, you know, and you do, you do get quicker, you know, according to the book, of course, like how much research you have to do for it and things, but you know, you'd get a little bit more time each year, like I had to actually step out like that and maybe do something like it's going to be a standalone. And so I've got about three or four other pieces that I've already started looking at and I just need the time to work on them. uh Could we go through your book series here?
And if we, could we really get the experience of Wyoming or do we got to come put our boots on the ground and actually do it? Cause I'm sitting here wondering like, I grew up in Kentucky. It was a one stoplight town. It's not that anymore, but like, you know, there were all the, the, the herds of cows and all, but you know, it wasn't the, it wasn't the Wyoming experience. I'm assuming I'll go out there and I'd feel like what is going on here. that's kind of essential to the whole process.
I just, you know, had a bunch of reviews came out like that about the book. Five Store, right? Yeah. And then, oh yeah, absolutely. They just came out like that. And it was nice because one of the things that they really complimented across the board was the descriptive passages. Just, you know, the description of like, you know, what exactly, you know, Wyoming looked like and the feel of it, the smell of it and all of that.
And so that's kind of essential for me because I think that when you love a place, you know, the only thing that it asks of you is some honesty. you know, and so I mean, I'm not going to just like give you a documentary of Wyoming that makes it look, you know, like a travel log, you know, on, you know, cable TV or something like that. I'm going to tell you the bad parts. No, I mean, it's got some bad parts like it.
And so it's essential to me like that, that I get all those details in there, like it and make it as honest as I can be. Cause the most horrible thing that would happen be like if you flew in and stepped off the plane and looked around and said, this is nothing at all. Like what's in Craig Johnson's book. That'd be horrible. So all right, so we can experience it. We can really feel it. um What makes you excited other than being an author?
Oh, well, I mean, are you talking about like other than the writing itself? Oh, oh, oh. well, you're wearing the cowboy hat. like, is he really a cowboy? yeah, yeah, I did that. Like that for goodness sake. Like I hardly know any Cowboys didn't walk away from cows and we're pretty happy about it by the time that happened. Especially when you get to a certain age, you know, you've been stepped on like that and shit on and everything else.
I get after a while you're like, okay, there's gotta be something better to do. little bit. Yeah. gosh. Yeah. Yeah. That's, know, like I was saying, like I was delivering horses and it's how I found you cross was to come down out of delivering horses out of Dylan, Montana. Like that, you know, and I got down there and I was supposed to meet some guy from Oklahoma City like it and trade the horses off with him, which kind of gives you an indication what you cross is like.
We don't have a pay phone, but we have a public corral. And so, you know, I get down there like it he wasn't there like it. And so there was a little bar across the street at that point in time called the U turn in. so I. so creative. so novel. The things you come up with. You turn in and you cross. I went over there and I gave him a quarter, I made a quick long distance phone call up to the rancher was working for and I said, he's not here. And I said, what do want me to do?
And he says, oh, he'll come along for too long. He hadn't left yet. And I was like, he hadn't left from Oklahoma city. And he's like, well, yeah. I said, what do you want me to do? And he said, well, just unload the horses in the public corral and just buck it up from Clear Creek, you know, and go get some idiot cubes, which are those 75, 80 pound bales. I said, go get some idiot cubes, it's bailing season. You know, the horses will be fine. said, well, that's all fine and well for the horses.
But what about me? And he said, well, Craig, like I said, it's bailing season. I'm sure up and down that Valley, they're looking for somebody to throw bales like it. And so I threw bales for like three days. Like it, no, I never bought a meal, never bought a beer. Like it slept on top of the horse trailer. Like it fell in love with that place and never left. sounds great. Really rustic, but it sounds great. The does it feel like when you're home is the pace of life we perceive.
We're not from there. It feels like it's a more balanced and an average pace of life. Are we wrong about that? No, no, you're right. I mean, so much of like, you know, what, you know, what the modern world is, is like to rush ahead, you know, to speed ahead like that. And all the technology and all of that, you know, with the phones, with the computers, with all of this stuff, like it, everything's faster, faster, faster, faster.
And, you know, the Northern Cheyenne have a belief like that, that that's not really what it is that you're supposed to be doing with your life. You're supposed to be slowing down. You're supposed to be seeing everything, feeling everything, living in those moments like that.
you the past is a ghost like that you know in the future you know is uncertain like and so you don't really have anything than just this moment right here right now and so it goes back a little bit to that like you know when someone comes up to you to sign their book look at if you're not living in that moment if you're not living in the now you're being
robbed of your life in many ways like it and so I think that that kind of a uh rural kind of environment you know where you're not really battling traffic you're not really in a rush you know everything going all at once. It allows you to slow down and be maybe a little bit more examining of the world around. Grizzly sneaks And then you just got to make sure you got a slow friend with you. They're all faster than them. Hey, thanks for tuning in.
If you like these types of conversations, be sure to follow the necessary entrepreneur on your favorite platform so you never miss out on future content. I'm thinking about this signing. I mean, you really spoke to it to try to be intentional with every person. We always kind of wonder that the people that aren't, you know, the people aren't waiting in lines for us and wanting us to sign a book and stuff, but what makes any of those people memorable and stand out to you?
Oh, I think just the return volley. think that like, you you're always going to have some people a little starstruck, you know, you're going to have some people like they want to get a picture taken with you. You put your arm around their shoulder and they start shaking, you know, and I'm like, look, relax, you know, I'm not a movie star here. I'm just a writer for goodness sake.
oh But I think that like, you know, somebody that comes up to you and tells you, you know, obviously the instances are like, you know, like last night I had a guy he was, you he said older gentlemen like it. And he said, you know, I I haven't read fiction in 30 years. at, he said, you know, and I, you know, my daughter bought me one of your books and I read it. And he said, I've read every single one of your books now. Look at, and he says, I'm going back and I'm rereading them again.
Like at finding stuff that I didn't see the first time. I mean, how do you not, you know, be tickled with that? You know, COVID was huge like that in the sense that there were so many people that discovered the TV show, you know, cause they were, you know, in, and then they discovered the books, you know, following that. at, uh, have people come up to you and say, know, boy, you know, this really kind of saved me. really, you know, found me a place to go when there really wasn't any place to go.
Look at and, you know, how can you not respond to that? Yeah, those are probably good moments. Did you think, you probably get this question a lot, but I really want to dig into it on the entrepreneurial side of things. Did you think when you were writing it, like maybe this will be a big hit? No. If you didn't, was there any hope? Was there any thought? Cause a lot of people have a dream. uh yeah, I know.
think what I was just trying to do is just write the very best book that I could like that. And then also, you know, in many ways, I tried to write a book that I wanted to read, you know, I wanted something like that. The books like it's funny like that, because I keep getting asked the question, you know, like, well, what's the genre, you know, that you work in? You know, is it Western? You know, and I'm like, yes. Is it mystery? Yeah. Is comedy? Yes. Look at is it history?
Yes. Look at, know, all of these things like that. But, you know, I like books that are kind of cross genre, you know, because genre is a word I think that basically it's it's what publishers use to sell a book like that they can pigeonhole it and put it into a specific, you know, type of book and then it makes it easier to sell. you know, I hate being pigeonholed. yeah. And to be honest, I mean, there's only two genres, there's good writing and bad writing, like it.
And so you try and not be the bad writing and try and be the good writing like that. And so, but you you go around and you try and pick up all these different things and put them in the book as much as you possibly can, because you want as many layers in there as you can possibly make, because you want to create, you know, a life you want to create a world, you know, that people can invest in, and, and enjoy like it when they're in part of it. Hmm. Yeah, because you weren't the first book.
wasn't a series. It was just a book. Why do you think it was a hit? uh I think, well, it was different. You know, it was different than a lot of the stuff that was out there, I think, from one. And then obviously Walt, you because the books are written in first person. And so you're pretty much in Walt's head, you know, for 350 some pages. And so that better be a nice place to be. It better be a funny place to be.
You know, I always laugh about that because, you know, students will ask, they'll say, you know, well, you know, how do you create characters, you know, that readers want to spend time with? And I'm like, make them funny. make them funny like it. Who do you like hanging out with? You like hanging out with people that make you laugh, you know, for goodness sake. Inevitably, the next thing out of their mouth is, yeah, but what if I'm not funny?
And then you have to look at them and go, well, you got a real problem on your hands. right. It sounds like, uh, no, I was the one quietly in the back of my head making the jokes growing up. Yeah. And, know, and then, you know, it came time like it, you know, I thought, okay, well, if I can't tell these things, then maybe I can write them. So the what makes a great cowboy hat? ah Oh, it's different for everybody. That's the big thing. It's not all the same hat for everybody.
Look at you got a I didn't know if I have a Craig one or a Tim McGraw oh You gotta look at the shape of your face, like at the size of your head, you know, all those type of things. And, you know, heck, even like, you know, the age you are or anything like that. Like, I mean, I'm wearing a palm leaf now. It's an Atwood look at, and, uh, you know, it's, it's very low key, you look at, know, but it's just, suits me. and I like it, like it.
And, and then the big thing is of course, like it, I discovered, you know, I was doing the Texas Sheriff's Association, which was a little bit of an eye opener like that because I, prompts, come down there and talk with them like that. And, you know, and Wyoming's got 23 counties in it. Okay. And so I figured, okay, well, you know, what Texas, you know, maybe twice the size of Wyoming, it's having like 50, I'll be talking about 50 guys. They had 255 counties in Texas for guys sake.
They're small counties. So I get down there like it, and there was a, this one old guy like it, and I was wearing my wool hat, you know, where am I? One of my wool hats like it. And, uh, he looked at me and he goes, Oh, must've got cool up there in Wyoming. Like, and I said, how come? it, and he goes, right. when you change your hat, son's first frost. And I was like, Ooh, that's a good title. That is it was it was the last book for last year. Really? Yeah. First frost. Yep. Watch out.
We're going to say to Craig, he's going to steal your great statements. Um, the, what do you, uh, when you go back. When did you really have, when did you really think like this, maybe this can be as an author, as this, like, were you going to keep writing regardless? Would it have come to an end with if they were just for you and the people around you, would you have just kept writing?
like to think that I would have like it I like to think that I would have like that and you know, I guess you know, at that point in time like that, I mean, the big thing for me was is like an absolute disbelief that this was happening like it and so mean, I don't think it really kind of, you know, worked for me until I like walked into the bookstores
and like suddenly there were these like stacks of you know, stacks of your books, you know, I kept thinking I'm gonna wake up any minute and this just won't be real like that, you know, but then when you walk in there and see those books, stacked up there and ready to go and people lined up like that to get them signed and everything. Then it's, it becomes very, very real. How long did it take before you thought I'm going to write a book until that happened? Well, that's a long story.
Are you ready for that? Okay, like, well, I sit down like it and I built the ranch myself. Okay, you know, I did it all myself because it's out in the middle of nowhere and nobody wanted to come out there to, you know, do construction work. And so I pretty much built the whole place myself. And I got a little cabin built about 24 by 32 log, at and got the windows and doors and the heat in like it because my wife demanded heat. Women are funny that way.
And so I got the heat all up and going like it and that's when I decided, all right, I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna, I'm gonna write. I'm gonna get started on this book I've always wanted to write, okay, because I had an idea. And so I sat down, I wrote the first two chapters of the Cold Dish, and they were horrible. They were really, really bad. Trust me on this. I know I wrote them, they were bad.
And so I thought, well, you know, the big thing is I need to go in and find out, you know, don't know what the problem is, is like, you don't know enough about sheriffing, you need to go out and find a sheriff and talk to him and see how he does what he does. I drove, you know, the 20 miles into Buffalo, like that, and I get in there. And of course, this is before 9-11. So there's no, you know, Bulletproof glass or know, computer rooms or anything like this.
can, so I go in and there's a wooden counter and then down the hallway, there's a door propped open and the guy's got his cowboy boots up on his desk. it, and I knocked on the, on the counter and he goes, what? And I said, Hey sheriff, can I talk to you for a minute? Like, and he comes out and this is fella Larry Kirkpatrick. he'd been the sheriff there in Johnson County for like, I don't know, quarter of a century. He had pigeon shit on his shoulders from being a statue there for so long.
I said, He's a comedian, you all. comes in like that. He's talking to me like that. And he said, how can I help you? Like I said, I shook hands with him. I said, my name is Craig Johnson. I got a little ranch out near you cross and I'm writing a murder mystery about a Wyoming sheriff like that. And I was wondering if you'd be willing to, you know, kind of help me out with this, like that, you know, and he said, well, I've never done anything like that before.
And I was like, well, I'm not looking for literary criticism here. I'm looking for like how it is that a rural sheriff, you know, would process a homicide investigation with, you know, limited sources, like at limited resources, limited, you know, staff and all this. And so, you know, we talked for a while, like, you know, and I guess at the end he said, well, yeah, I can at least take a look at it see what I can come up with.
Okay. And so I walked out of there and I was so sure that I'd solved my problem that I went home and added onto my house. And then I had, and then I like built a shop and I built a bar and corrals and loading shoots and got the ranch all up and going. My wife had a store she wanted to open like that. And so I went into town and tore out an old, an old opera house like that and redid it for her so she could get her store all up and going.
I was back at the ranch there and I was looking around for something back in the office like it and I yanked open the third drawer down on the right hand side and those two little lonely chapters of the cold dish were looking up at me and 10 years had gone by. And I pull those two chapters out and I set them on the desk there and I start reading them and they were just as bad as I remembered them being 10 years previous. And I thought, you know, wow. You know, your life's all in order.
Now's the time when you can sit down and write this book like it, and this is horrible. What you've got started, you're going to have to go back in there and you're going to have to reintroduce yourself to this sheriff all over again because Larry was still the sheriff. And so I thought, ah, this is going to be embarrassing. it didn't have enough nerve to do it. So I didn't, you know, and there was one instance like that.
think maybe like, you know, a couple of weeks later, like at where I was in town and I was putting gas in the, uh, in the ranch truck, like I'm standing there at the pump Island and all of sudden this sheriff's cruiser pulls up. And Larry gets out. Now I hadn't spoken a word to him in 10 years. I'd voted for him, you know, but I hadn't spoken a word to him and he gets out, starts fueling his vehicle. He turns around.
He looks at me like that and he pops his hat back, drops his Ray-Bans down on his nose and he's looking at me. He's giving me this look that says, what did I arrest you for? And when was it? And I look at him and I thought, boy, this is going to be even more embarrassing because it's going to be in public. So I stuck my hand out and I said, Sheriff Kirkpatrick, you're probably not going to remember me. And he goes, your name is Craig Johnson.
You're the one that's got the little ranch out near Ucross. You're the one writing a murder mystery about a Wyoming sheriff. And I looked at him. This is from a 10 minute conversation from 10 years previous. I looked at him. said, that is absolutely amazing. And he nods his head and he goes, yeah. Yeah. If you don't mind me saying so, this book is going kind of slow. You know what they say to be a great politician what you have to do is you remember people's names it hurt. doesn't hurt.
Yeah, yeah, it really did. that. And then that lit a fire under me and I was like, okay, if I'm going to do this, I'm not going to die thinking, you know, that I wishing that I had done this, you know, we've all heard that, you know, the old adage of like, you know, it's not the things that people do that they regret at the end of their lives. things they didn't do. Yeah. that around here for two years to people. said, you all, only two or three things in my life that I look back on.
And the only things I have regret on, not the tough things, not the bad decisions you make, it's the things that I know that I wanted to do that I didn't. And it was always about the perceived judgment of someone else. That's what it feels like. Why wouldn't you do Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, to be robbed of like the opportunities in your life, just because other people's opinions. Look at I mean, come on now. There you go. There you go.
when was this when that happened when the sheriff and pumping the gas, what year? That was like, well, that was, and then what happened was I sat down and I wrote the rest of the cold dish in about six months. And then what I did was I had a couple of connections like that to a couple of agencies there in New York. it, and I called, like it made a few, you know, query letters, like it and told them, look, I'm going to be in New York, you know, for this week.
Like, and I want to stop by and drop this manuscript off and have you guys take a look at it see what you think about it. And, uh, you know, the majority of them, you know, never heard anything. uh We see these things all day long then there was one, there was one like that that I went into like that. And she sat down and she said she had 10 minutes for me like that. I said, well, that's 10 minutes more than anybody else has given me.
And I sat down and I talked with her and I discovered later, she was like one of the most powerful agents in New York. You know, she was huge. Like she was the president of the agents union in New York for goodness sake. And, and you know, she, they said they had 10 minutes for me we talked through the 10 minutes. said, tell me about your book. Tell me about yourself. I know we're going longer than 10 minutes. We're going into like a half an hour or 40 minutes or something like that.
And so we finish up like that and I said, well, thanks so much and I appreciate your time. I went downstairs where my wife, Judy, had been sitting in a coffee shop because she was so beat up from all the rejections that we'd gotten the rest of the week. uh She was down there and had about five expresso's. And so we knew I'd get back down there she's like, you were up there for a long time. She's like, you'd be there for a long time. Might've gone well, right?
Cause you were there for a long time. And so I said, I don't know. I can't read this stuff. I don't have any idea. Maybe it worked. Maybe it didn't. don't know. I said, we'll just go home and see what happens. And we flew home and the answering machine at the ranch there was blinking when I got home. And it was Gail Hockman, a Brandt Hockman Associates. And she said, don't give this to anybody else. I want it. When did you leave that message versus when you had met her in the office?
How long was the time? yeah, yeah, it was like a day. m Do think she knew in that half hour she'd made up her mind? No. I mean, you you can talk a good game, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can write it, you know. And so I think she sat down and started reading the book like, and felt like, huh, this is something different. You know, this might, this might just work. Uh, not until I saw them stacked up in the bookstores. I kept thinking I'm going to wake up and it's all going to be gone.
Um, I always wait to invoke the spouse until the guest does, that you have somebody that's gone on this ride with you from the beginning. It's theirs too. absolutely. Well, then, know, I mean, Judy's a big part of all of this, like that simply because, she grew up in Hartford, uh Connecticut, and her parents were editors of the Hartford Courant. And so, you know, she came from an editorial background, like that. And then she went to Wellesley, like in Boston.
She's one of those sophisticated ladies. Wow. What'd you do? And then she was down in Philadelphia and that's where I met her when we were doing grads, doing graduate studies like getting people always ask that question. It's always like, okay, well my gosh, New York Times bestseller, like a TV show, then translated into a couple dozen languages and all this. What's the greatest, you know, accomplishment of your life?
I'm like getting that New England girl on my shoulder and carrying her off to you cross Wyoming and getting her to stay. That was probably the biggest goal of my life for goodness sake. No I don't think so. She was really, you know, into the idea of like, you know, out and away like that. And, uh, but yeah, she, you she's my first reader.
that, you know, I, you know, when I finished, you know, up a chapter, like that, set it down there on the kitchen table, like that, you know, and read it to her while she's cooking dinner like that. And we talk about it, like that. And she goes through, like that and edits the whole book, but excuse me, before I send it off, like at the Viking penguin, like it, as a matter of fact, there was one instance where we forgot to, you know, accept all changes like that.
And so I sent it back to Brian Tartt, like at the president of Viking. And it had all the corrections that Judy had put on there as we read through it. and he called me up on the phone and said, would Judy like a job? Good, we'll ever do this on all of them. So you had your, you got your masters, you got your graduate degree, huh? From where? have Temple University in Philadelphia. temple. How'd that happen? You grew up in Wyoming. How'd you go to temple?
You know, I was looking for writing programs like it and they had a really good writing program like it and I thought, okay, you know, this is you know, what it is you want to do like it, you better get serious about it, you know, and try and find out you know, like how it is that they do the things that they do look at and so it helped like that.
But I think you know, a lot of it so much as you know, finding the story, finding the voice that's going to tell that story, and then combining those two and making it work. um And then it's, you know, then it's going to be always a question, you know, in any type of art, like that, you know, you're to have a balance between, know, what you think is going to be a commercial success and what, you know, what is going to be an artistic success, like in trying to blend those two together.
I really did like that. That was all I was concerned with. I figured that was their business, like at the business part of it, like it, cause they'd been doing it for a hundred years, like it. So they probably knew a little bit more about it than I did. You knew at 18, you want to be a writer. I I did, but like I said... uh However that happened, ah that wasn't my experience.
But there's so many other people too that you just need to decide and go all in with something and make a great life out of the thing you find or make a decision on. um I don't have any envy in my life, but two people. One, that 18 year old kid that knows what they want their life to be. And because you can get really busy because the earlier you start, the more you can do. Yep. Right.
Yeah. Um, and then the other second one is the old couple at 80 or 90 years old sitting on a that, you're full of contentment that you just know, they don't need to say a word. Yep, that's a life shared. eh That makes the biggest difference in the world, really does. How do you think, when did that 18 year old, at what age did you know? Oh, I mean, knowing and doing are two different things. you know, and I desperately wanted. give you. so many people have an idea, right? Right.
Yeah, they just go to die because nobody does anything with Well, the thing is, like, you know, because it's, know, you hear a lot of like, you know, a lot of people talking about things like anything about what it is that, you know, people should do or, or that. And I think one of the biggest mistakes that you can make, like is telling people or to believe like that, you know, like, where's your passion? Where's your heart?
And all that like that, because, you know, there are a lot of things you can be passionate about, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's any opportunity at all. You know, heck, I would have liked to have been, you know, like, you know, the catcher for the Cincinnati Reds, like, but that job was already we wouldn't want you to that. The big rep machine back in the day. I don't think Johnny was giving up that. at all. I grew up a fan too.
My biggest thing was I heard he was six foot even and 200 pounds. All I wanted to do was be six foot even and 200 pounds. I got to the six foot and I've been trying to get back to 200 pounds ever since. And Judy's accepted for every pound. So when do you think, I mean, when did it occur to you? You wanted to be a writer. Were you inspired by anybody else or did you just, did you read something? What are you, are you saying you, let me guess you wrote, um you read, um, what is it? Dang it.
That everybody says all the great writers. Who's the guy who's one of the writers, the book is there one I'm going to come up with it. It's I'm losing in my head. in the raw. Is this where this coming from? Do you have that moment though? I don't know. think, what it was is just the effect that writing can have and reading, you know, the effect that reading more importantly, like it can have on your life.
mean, you know, only those of us who actually do read, like it know just what an enhancement that is to our lives on a daily basis. Like it, and I just was like stunned, you know, by some of these incredible writers, like, know, people like John Steinbeck, you know, Charles Dickens, like it, you know, Harper Lee, like at all these writers that had written, you know, such incredible works like it and I mean, they're life altering when you read them.
And you just can't help but think, you know, boy, if I could in some small way, you know, be a part of that, you know, that would be a worthy cause like it to get involved with like that. But boy, it's a dicey proposition, it really so many books written now, are there going to be a few standout Huckleberry Fins and Catcher on the Ride? Are there going to be? There's so many.
the big question like that, you know, and there's a lot of these, you know, programs that are like dropping a lot of like classic literature and picking up more modern pieces and all of this. And that's all right, because I think it shows, you know, diversity and all of that. But nonetheless, like, there's an awful lot of stuff that I read nowadays that people say, Oh, this is a great book.
And I'm sitting here thinking to myself, boy, I don't know if anybody's gonna be reading this in 50 or 100 years, you know, like it and that does come from like that plethora. of produced, written and published material that there is now. There's this maw of... an opportunity, It is. Write a great book. It is. And it will stand out in the crowd. Like that. know, and it does make for more opportunities for more writers like that.
But then again, it also makes for an awful lot of mediocrity out there too. a lot of noise in marketing around books now. And, um you know, I have my team pushing me to write a book and I'm in the midst. But it's not, it's not with the same balance, the same integrity and the right, the same intention that you wrote your books. It's not, I think it's um what here's where I'm at this crossroads. I said, so much I've learned and educated my mind is from books.
And if everyone would just go read those books. They can educate their mind the same way. Another one of my books and my perspective doesn't need to be written.
Well, but see, but you're doing an accumulative of that, like that you're taking it from your perspective, like it and drawn all those like threads together, you know, to make what it is you want to do sounds like what you're doing exactly what I do like that, which is like, we're more like crows, you know, we go out and fly around out there in that world, like it and pick up what we want, like it and bring it back to the nest and put that in your book.
Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of people don't have the time to read like 70 different books that you've read in a lifetime, but they can take that synthesis of information that you can bring to it like that and read that one book. When you, what catches your eye? To pick up a book. Oh, ha. Is it the author or is it something that you just didn't know was going to catch your eye? it's more the subject matter.
mean, obviously, you know, I mean, there lot of authors that I read every book that they write, you know, but then again, that's a small list like it and, know, a lot of times if I'm just browsing like it through a bookstore or something like that, I'll pick it up like it look and see what the book is about and to say, Okay, yeah, that's interesting. And it looks forward, what is it? What's what makes you keep turning? I do that.
I look at the flap folder, look at it I'll toss it open, you know, about midway, look at it and read a couple of paragraphs just to see, am I going to be able to tolerate this writing style? Like, is this somebody I'm going to be able to put up with for 300 pages? Because that's a dicey proposition too. A lot of people ask about the audiobooks.
We've had a lot of awards for the audiobooks and I've got a really fantastic reader, George Guadel, who does a lot of incredible books and he's done all of mine. He's all done all 21 novels, three novellas and collection of short stories. It's been fantastic because I've never had look back. But that's a dicey proposition because for an audiobook, you need a good book and then you need a good reader, okay? Because otherwise, you can go right into the toilet really quick.
I remember driving across country one time, was the middle of the night, I was going into a Flying J truck stop and there in the Flying J truck stop, this is a while back, they had an entire unabridged cassette. set of Moby Dick. And I thought, Oh yeah, I can throw this in the cassette player and I can drive like that for the next 12 hours. No problem at all. in discount 499, like that, you know, well, you get what you paid for, you know?
And so I got out there and I put that first cassette in and I don't know who this community theater actor was that they picked out to play this thing like that, but boy. He was like John Gilgud on steroids is what he was. was like, oh, call me Ishmael. And I was like, boy. yeah. Here we go. No, I didn't even make it through one half of one cassette. So you think a good book the way you see it, a couple of paragraphs, know.
You certainly get a feel, you you get a taste, you know, for what it is that the writer style, you know, is like it and, know, sometimes you can be surprised like that, obviously, like it, because that's just a whim, like it where you're just plucking out a couple of paragraphs from an entire novel. You know, yeah, maybe, maybe not like it. You can also get fooled. might have, you know, you might hit a really good spot, you know, and read that and think it's.
Ways to put it, if you're an author, say human to human, we have such a micro moment to gain trust, gain credibility, to have someone like us. That's what I'm wondering, like in writing, how long do we have? I know. That's a good question. That's a good question. I do know that most, you know, uh editors like acquisition editors, like at an agents in New York, basically what they tell me is, is about 12, 15 pages. You know, they'll start a manuscript and they'll go about 12 or 15 pages.
And by the time they get through with those, they know whether this thing is worth doing or not, or worth reading. And so, you know, boy, focus on that first 12, 15 pages, make sure they're sharp. did, um, what'd you like more? Did you like the series, um, and making the movies, making the shows or writing the book? I knew you were going to say that, but I'm like, where, where's it. I did enjoy the television show.
I was very fortunate that I had the show runners and producers that had done a bunch of all of these very, very successful shows. They were wonderful about including me in a lot of the decision making process. One of the things they did was, I remember talking to Lee Child, Michael Connelly and a couple other guys like who did movies or TV shows done to their stuff like that. And I asked him, said, you know, well, what do I have to expect here?
And they said that they will slide a check across the table and then you will probably never hear from them again. And then here in a year or two, you might recognize what it is, you know, when you see it on television or you might not look at it. And I was like, well, that's all right. I can understand that. at it. I prefer something else like that. But, you I understand is like, you know, you know, an eight book author from a town of 25 like that. I better take what I can get like it.
Well, These were some really wonderful producers like it and I was surprised by it, know, and they actually to the point where they actually even sent me boxes of DVDs of the auditions for the actors that they were considering for the roles in the TV show. Yeah. they, mean, Hollywood doesn't do that. They just don't like it. They don't care what the author has to say. mean, this is like singing about painting as far as that's concerned. Look at, and so You know, it was very interesting to see.
then, know, like whenever they would make changes or, you know, deviate, you know, from, know, the narrative line of the novels, they would explain to me, you know, why it was that they were doing this, why this was going to be a little bit different from what it was, what was in the books and, know, why it works on television this way. And, you know, with a 42 minute teleplay, you know, this is the breakdown we can't do.
You one of the first meetings I had with them, they said, you know, your books don't break down into a 42 page teleplay. And I was like, thank goodness if they did, you shouldn't be reading them for goodness sake. You know, they said, we're going to do is we're going to like, you cherry pick, you know, bits and pieces, you know, from all the different books like that. And then utilize those to like, you know, create shorter versions, you know, of the arc that you've got for the stores.
No, think, you know, the best thing you can do, as you well know, in any kind of business. is get the very best people that you can to work with and what do you do at that point is leave them the hell alone. I'll get let them do the thing that you've hired them to do for gosh sake. I'm you're right into that one. don't know if I tried to or not. is how much of this has been intentional selection or was it the people that were just willing to? Because you went to New York, right?
And you heard a lot of nos. It's just the lady that said yes. I mean, was there any chance you were going to say no? you know, but she was too wonderful. She was fantastic. And then the whole relationship that I've had with the publisher now here for 20 years has been just a dream come true. I mean, so many authors, change agents, they change publishers, they change all these different kinds of things. I've had absolutely no reason to try and do that for 20 years.
I pretty much started with the A list and landed at the A list and stayed on the A list. more about you and more about them. you don't think so? it was them. it was just a quality, you know, that I stepped into like that, that just because I'm talking about the business aspect of it, obviously, um you know, I because that is really the success of that's all just been a side effect in many ways.
Like, and I never the only thing I wanted to do, I swear to God was like, I wanted to sell enough books that I could continue writing books. That's all I really wanted to ever do. That's the story of success though, because everybody that wants to make it about about money. It just it gets interrupted along the way before it becomes great. Something happened. And when you hear that you just care about making the thing great, a book, a business, building.
That's the story that is consistent through the theme of success in life. you know, with the writing, like it's a little bit easier like that, because I mean, you are in that room alone by yourself, you know, conceiving this stuff like that. And so, you know, boy, you're, you're, you know, your focus better be on that work is whether it be like, you know, and so I think if you're out there hustling around and doing all this stuff, maybe it's a little bit different, but I don't think so.
I think you have to have that idea like that, that this is what you want to do like that, and you're going to do it the very best that you can possibly do it. If, um, if you had one of these ranches where teenagers and youth would come, I'm not saying trouble, just in general, I went to camps. went to Northern Minnesota as a kid. I went to the boundary waters and we would be canoeing and we do these.
All they did, you know, we go over to Canadian trading posts and stuff, but we sprayed ourselves down. I learned a lot on those. Um, I'd go to these camps for three weeks. It was in or Minnesota, north of Duluth and Pelican Lake. Um, know, these moments when you're 12, 13, 14, 15, some of these experiences, I'm sure you had some, maybe yours on ranches and stuff. uh What would you teach 12 and 14 and 16 and 18 year old kids if you designed a program to bring them to your ranch?
What's the thing you teach them? started them off with what my dad said. Don't be afraid of a hard day's work or an ass kicking. Like, you know, just jump right in and do it. You know, you don't know until you try. So that would be the big thing. I just think that, you know, lot of people are intimidated. they start off thinking about these dreams that they have and everything, but they get talked out of it.
Like, it's almost like what you said, as far as like, you know, the opinions of other people, like that, you know, that, you know, other people talk you right out of your life if you give them a chance. Boy, we can see her talk forever. Craig Johnson. Wow. Sheriff Longmore. What a pleasure to have a conversation. A guy, a cowboy all the way from Wyoming to here. And see, even though you came to Cincinnati, you're sitting on the good side of the river with the folks of Kentucky right now, right?
I can tell because all the bourbon on these on these these kegs over here. Yeah. You know, that's the, I'm sure that if we go to Wyoming, it's probably inspires us about ranches and we're going to see horns up on the wall and some moose and right. All that stuff. So we're indicative. We're bluegrass and we're bourbon. Um, I think as long you don't drink too much of it, it's something pretty cool to be, um, thanks. You know, I had an uncle who was a horse trader. He used to go to a California.
They had a lot down there and then he was in La Grange, Kentucky, just north of Wolville. And, cause my grandpa, um, George Stahl came over from Germany in early 1900s and he was the guy in Northern Kentucky that took everyone's cattle down Dixie highway, down to Louisville to the slaughterhouse. took everyone's. Wow. So I don't know if it would have been called a broker. don't know. I don't know what his fee was, but he was the guy that took everybody's cattle down there to do it.
So he was the guy. Wow. Yeah. And I didn't do any of that stuff. I could have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think. and you know You know what's funny? My mom grew up riding horses and stuff. grew up on motorcycles, but about, uh, when I was 23 or 24, I had never been on a horse, which is wild, right? And so I had some friends, uh, and I might've been, no, maybe it was 25, 26. was, I had just had a breakup updating somebody for seven years before I met Jenna. We've been together 17 years now.
I was in fun mode. Yeah. Okay. My fun mode was experiencing life, not just going out chasing the girls, but it was, Let's get out and do some different things. So had some friends call me and they're like, Hey man, we're going to jump on some horses at my farm. Why don't you come by? And I'm that guy and wife was like, okay. And I'm like, can somebody give me a lesson? Like, no, man, we're gonna put the saddle on here. And you know, they made me tie and hook my own saddle. Not the best idea.
And they gave me the biggest horse. His name was Gus. Um, he knew I was intimidating. They have a way. They have a way of knowing these things. Uh, they put me on that horse and we were 11 PM at night. Oh gosh. Riding the Hills of power lines. And I got to the top of one. And there was rocks everywhere. was very scared. was scared for my life. Not gonna lie. I was riding motorcycles, but these things were fast and branches are hitting me in the face.
But, uh, the saddle halfway up one of these we call mountains here ended up on the side of the horse. I made it to the top. I just had a guy text me the other day. I hadn't seen him for 20 years and he's like, dude, I still think about you riding up that Hill in that power line with the saddle side. He said, how in the world did you stay on top of that thing? I was like, I was scared to break my neck.
So, I think I need to come to Wyoming to really see how it's The, where, where does the person, uh, if we want to experience Wyoming, we're going to end this. This is our first cow. Where do we start our Wyoming adventure? Well, I did a, there's actually like, I did a, uh, like a travel log piece, like it for Cowboys and Indians magazine called the Longmire loop. Okay. And so all you gotta do is just jump on the internet and put in Longmire loop and it'll come up.
Um, I mean, there's, there are a lot of really wonderful parts. I mean, there's like, you know, the granddaddy of them all, the big Cheyenne rodeo. Look at there's, know, Jackson hole, like at Yellowstone and all that, but my favorite part of Wyoming and probably my favorite part of the whole world. is that bighorn mountain region like that because it's still, you know, a wilderness area surrounded by a national forest.
So what that means is like, you know, in a wilderness area, there's no roads, there's no electricity, there's no, there's nothing. I mean, when you go in, you go in with leather, either, you know, boot leather or saddle leather. And it's just, there's no million dollar, you know, condos, there's no billion dollar ski resorts or any of that stuff. It's all like old lodges from the 40s, know, and 30s and things like that, you know.
And so it's more like going back in time, you know, which I really kind of appreciate, you know, the more and faster pace, you know, the world gets, you know, it means more to me like I had to be able to escape back into that period. All these wealthy people do this glamping now. Do ever see that popping up? You're like, what's on? No, not around where we are now. They don't make it to the U-turn at U-turn. Well, thanks for coming in. oh Much success with this final book.
I don't think you need anybody to wish it for you. You've set this thing on a heck of a path. you. Yeah. We just landed actually yesterday at number 12 on the New York times best sellers list. So, know, no, it's how many you sell. I got how many books you sell across country. Yeah. What's the top that any of these landed? Let's see. think I had one that was number four. I believe like I don't know. We'll see. Okay guy. Thanks for stopping in much success.
And, uh, through all your travels, uh, go back to that, uh, nice crazy winter and, uh, Hey, listen, we'll be, uh, wall Meijer days in Buffalo, Wyoming in July. Wow. They don't need any more people. The sheriff might throw us out. Thank you for coming in.