Four, three, two, one, cue Gareth!
Welcome to the music room. This time in the music room.
one thing I often tell people is how does sound sound? I know that sounds probably stupid, but. If you take an EQ and shove a high cut on it so you're just hearing the sub. How does that sub sound? Can you hear the sub Then how do the bass frequencies sound? Does that make you just go, Ooh, or is that, Ooh, that's horrible.
Welcome to the music room, the show, or I chat with music industry professionals about what they're up to before going back in time to discover how it all began for them. Uh, this episode marks a tiny change in the guest lineup. And you may have noticed, I said music industry professionals there. I'm always thinking about ways to help composers, songwriters and musicians to navigate their musical lives. And I've come to the conclusion that as well as hearing from.
Uh, other composers, songwriters and musicians who've had success and can therefore pass on tips and advice, there are other people in the industry that can offer really valuable and relevant advice too. By the way, if you enjoy this episode or you feel like you've learned something by listening to it. I'd be so grateful if you could share the episode. Which you can do from wherever you're listening to it. Whatever app, you listen to podcasts in.
Share it with a friend via text or share it to your Instagram or whatever you crazy kids are using these days. I love producing this show and it means so much when listeners appreciate that effort and pass it forward to people who might enjoy it or benefit from it. So thanks in advance. Today we have a guest whose main role is mixing and mastering. John Elleson-Hartley has a client list as long as your arm and for very good reason.
We'll be chatting about what he's up to, uh, he'll be offering some mixing and mastering tips, uh, and of course, John will be leaving an item and piece of advice later on for you to find. But before that music stories. The European branch of first artist management FAM, or FAM the international talent agency representing composers music, supervisors and music editors has announced a second edition of its UK composer assistant and mentor program or C.A.M.P.
Ivor Novello award-winning composer Hannah Peel will be the C.A.M.P. 2024 to 25 ambassador and is co-curating the programme. Composer mentors already signed up, include Music Room guest Alex Baranowski, Natalie Holt and Re Olenuga with others to be announced. The initiative is designed for young music makers from underrepresented groups, wanting to break into the industry with the aim of launching new voices and creating new role models.
And a couple of new releases from members of the Music Room community. Film composer turned songwriter Rich Chance has a quirky song out called Picture Show all about robot spider zombie dogs, which he posted on 28th of June. You can find him on Spotify, et cetera at rich chance. Or follow his socials, rich chance music on Instagram and Facebook. Or rich chance songs on Tik TOK. Marco Iannello has a new EP called ambient miniatures volume one.
He says, I decided to repurpose a few demo tracks I did for sample library developer into an EP plus an outsider written to a brief that did not make the cut. The result is a small collection of so-called miniatures to take the listener through a journey of ambient soundscapes and lo fi beats. That's fantastic. Really nice to see some new releases. And those are the music stories. Mixing and mastering engineer.
John Elleson-Hartley is incredibly passionate about making music sound as good as possible. Collaborating personally, with composers and artists to help bring their tracks and albums to life, ensuring they are completely happy before releasing their music to the world. John also offers one-to-one online music production coaching, and advice for those wanting to improve their skills and sound.
Clients include Emmy and RTS winning composer Nainita Desai, Ivor Novello and BAFTA winning Arthur Sharpe, Ivor nominated composer Chris Rowe, Ivor winning Ian Livingston, Joanna Karselis. Alex Parsons, Marie-Anne Fischer, Marcus Hedges, and many more. Wow. There were a few Music Room guests in there as well. Let's get into the Music Room to find out what John is up to now, before heading back in time to find out how it all began for him. Here we go.
John Ellison Hartley, mixing and mastering legend. Welcome to the Music Room.
Hi Gareth, thank you for that. Lovely to be here having a chat with you.
Yeah, we've already had a big chat and, uh, I realised that I really needed to hit record. To to capture it, so I'm really looking forward to this chat today. So you've had an interesting week. I've seen from your socials that you've just been to the develop conference. Uh, so it's been a busy week for you. What is the develop conference and, um, well, yeah, what is the develop conference? I'm going to ask you another question about networking as well after that.
The develop conference. I don't know that much of it was my first time there. And it's for gaming, basically everything about that side of the industry. So anybody can be there from the developers all the way through to actors and composers and everybody in between really. Um, but yes, very much, as you say, it's a networking opportunity and just a gathering of lots of good people.
Oh
and it's really exciting. There's so many things going on and lots of freebies as well in there, in the expo and lots of talks, so many people, you know, seeing what's actually happening in the industry, um, and stuff to learn basically.
we touched on before hitting record was, the emphasis you put on networking, not just for looking for clients, but also looking for peers in the industry and learning, learning from the conference and learning from other people at the conference as well. Did you find that it was a useful conference from that perspective?
I mean, I've, what we do is all about people, um, making those connections and to actually see people who you already know, to then maybe people who you've sort of known online and actually get to meet them in real life, and all the way through to somebody who's completely different, nothing to do with what you do. for an example, uh, my friend Marcus Hedges and I, we went to the Game Audio, um, drinks that yesterday night. That's very good English.
And, um, Yeah, there were four women there before when we came in and they had all the lovely sofa and seats and said, Oh, we're the comfy piece, join. And they were actors, voice actors and motion capture that side of things.
wow.
And being able to say what they do, but then the passion and energy, which then we pick up on that. And I always come away from I've learned something about something I had no idea about. the technology that's being used, the difficulties, and even thinking about funding behind some of the stuff they're doing. And yeah, you're just perked up. And then like today, it's all right, I've got to get on with more work and more this.
So I think being fueled up by meeting other wonderful people and what they're doing.
Yeah, absolutely. Conferences are good for that, aren't they? To inspire you to, uh, you know, maybe perhaps sometimes we think, oh, you know, it's just another day, but to go and like you say, mix with other people. it's inspiring. It's invigorating. Uh,
And I imagine you get that because you've gone to some podcast events, haven't you as well, because you you're building this and this amazing Music Room and everything else. I was gonna say conglomerate then, but
Conglomerate, ooh.
do you feel from coming back from there? Do you get
Yeah, yeah, similar. I mean it's, it's a bit weird networking in a different industry almost. It's, it's a little bit of a Venn diagram, um, with audio in the middle. But yeah, I feel exactly the same. You know, it's, I think also it's just taking time out of your normal routine. Uh, just kickstarts your brain, doesn't it? So even on the train to these things, you're thinking, Oh, right. You know, I'm taking a step back.
I can think of, my kind of business as a whole and, it sparks ideas and certainly meeting people then, that accelerates, doesn't it? And, uh, by the time you're back in the studio, you're ready to go. You're raring to go. Yeah.
being out of your comfort zone. And I think when going to events, when we work in our own little space, it's nice and quiet and I can just be here. Oh, let's do this. And no, I don't want to go somewhere. But actually, once you go there, usually there's at least one person who you come away going. That was so good to have met that person. At least it's well worth going out.
Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so yes, I think both of our advice there is go to networking events, go to conferences, because you just don't know what you'll come away with, even if it's just an idea in your head.
Well, I think more this, where we've been so used to socials now, I think they're, they're sort of failing from where they used to be and really connecting people. It's just seems to have become stale and it's great to still make the connections, but very much more of get back to the human connection. And it's about working collaborating, trusting them, building that bond over time and having fun. and working with good people. I'd say..
Absolutely. Here's to that. So on your website, John, uh, you have a wall of artwork. It's like your famous wall that you post sometimes on your, on your socials. You know, TV and film and all the releases you've worked on. It must feel pretty amazing to look at all those releases knowing that you had a hand in making the music sound as good as it possibly can. How does that feel for you?
it, yeah, it's a bit mind boggling at times. And I do need that there to look back because I tend to have quite a rotation of work. And sometimes it's like, what did I do last week or the week before? And it's very sobering, I suppose, to just load that up. And I create the big wall thing myself in Pixelmator, which is like a Photoshop thing.
And it does take a bit of time, but it is also time to just go, Oh yeah, I did that, and oh wow, that person who I worked with there, and oh, they create, Oh, I must go and have a listen to that again. because sometimes, you know, you forget what you've done and then re experience the emotional wow, you know, because the people I get to work with, they just write really good music and
actually. So you look, you look back at previous work. Does it inform you in your future work? Do you suddenly listen to something and go, Ooh, you know, I, uh, I fiddled with the high end there.
No, I, I have different ways of thinking. It's like when I was a composer, I would be working that way. Then you mix in a different way. Um, and when I now mix and master, I listen to sound. So, Particularly when I'm mastering, I'm not really listening to the music. I'm listening to the sound. So it's only maybe the next day where I'll put the whole lot on and just listen, or even sometimes with our perfection. I don't know how you are.
Um, the perfection doesn't exist, but you want to be as good as possible. And it's weird that. Once I've let something go and it's been released, maybe a week or two after, I'd actually just listen to it just to enjoy it. And that's when I relax. I'm like, oh yeah, I think I did a pretty good job on that. Okay, right. Whew. And then it's put to bed. Um, it's just the way I work, I suppose.
you know, that's nice to actually listen back and think, right, I covered all of those sonic things. Now I can just enjoy the music.
And also, you know, being afraid of, well, not being afraid of making mistakes. And there's always some, and what is a mistake anyway? Um, there might be a resonant frequency of one thing in a track that I'm like, Ooh, that could have been a little better, but I'm not them beating myself up. It's like, no, I'm happy. It's good. And ultimately my clients are happy because you've sent something back to them and they're happy to release that. So that's the job really.
fantastic. And speaking to that, for a lot of composers, songwriters and musicians who perhaps don't have the budget to outsource mixing and mastering, what kind of tips can you share for them to look out for when they're mixing and mastering their own music and maybe even at the recording stage?
The main thing for me, which is always comes back to is learning your gear. So, if you're working on headphones or speakers and the room that they're in, and preferably if you can do some treatment in that room, if you're using speakers, but get the best possible ones you can, and then learn how music sounds through them. And that also is the same with your phone speakers, car speakers, anything like that.
So that whenever you make any judgment, when you're mixing or creating, even if you completely messing something up, making it distorted and go, what the hell, I'm just gonna be stupid with this. Yeah, throw everything at it. But if you know that it still sounds okay in your headphones, then you can have confidence I always say, does it sound right? It's like, why did you do it? And does it sound right? And if you can answer those questions, then it's like, fine.
Don't worry about it wasn't done the right way or not. I often go back to, you know, the creativity time of, say, the Beatles, where they were just really pushing boundaries and, let's grab this and do the other. But you had a check at the end. Does it sound right? So yeah, I get that quite a bit of people saying, Oh, I don't know if it's the right way or, you know, EQ before compressor or after. Well, there's ways of knowing. Um,
Yeah. And I guess that, you know, composers will know that there's no right way to write music, you know? Uh, so for someone to say, this is how you should be doing it is, is utter rubbish. You know, by definition of being creative, you're creating something from nothing and that's entirely up to you. But, I guess from that kind of perspective, from the composer songwriter, um, musician perspective. It's a bit of a dark art, isn't it? The mixing mastering side.
It's more kind of technical, um, more science-y just from our kind of point of view
Sort of and again, I was guilty of using many years ago it's like, Ooh, um, which is absolutely, I was going to say another word, but it's absolute rubbish. Um, but
Hartley.
wizard, I've been called a wizard and a warlock at times. Yeah, it's like, so I can take, I don't mind that. But,
can both. Create magic and destroy. Ooh.
just, learning the basics. So even as you say, capturing sound from the beginning, always having things as good as possible, sounding as good as possible, knowing the basics of EQ. And one thing I often tell people is how does sound sound? I know that sounds probably stupid, but. If you take an EQ and shove a high cut on it so you're just hearing the sub. How does that sub sound? Can you hear the sub in what you're listening to? You know, some headphones or speakers, you won't even hear it.
So it's being aware that you're not hearing it. Then how do the bass frequencies sound? How the mids and the very high, you know, that lovely little sizzly top end. Does that make you just go, Ooh, or is that, Ooh, that's horrible. So that all goes back to, again, listening to a ton of music. on your gear so that you know what is or isn't right. And also there's no quote 'right' sound.
You look, you can listen to so many masters, totally different, but there is a sort of accepted quality level that's
Yeah, and coming full circle to what you were saying before about does it feel right? You know, not relying on what you're seeing in front of you in terms of numbers and waves and whatever. Um, and thinking, Oh, actually that vocal sounds really piercing. So
That's exactly,
don't rely on the numbers in front of you. What does it sound like? And, uh, go from there.
And certainly numbers now where, I mean, the whole luffs thing is awesome in terms of mastering and, pulling back from the loudness war to a degree. But one of my worst things you see now is like, what luffs should I mix my track to? You shouldn't even really be thinking about luffs at the mix. And there's,
By the
may or may not.
could you explain LUFS, just for
Oh, hell. loudness loudness units. I'm not that technical on these things. Is it
Sorry, put
units full scale, isn't it? Yes. Oh, let me just Google that. Um,
But it's about loudness, isn't it?
yes. And it's, it's not peaks. So there was a thing called RMS years ago, we used to use and we still use it root mean squared, which again, I just say that. So it makes me sound like I know what I'm talking about. But yeah, how loud things are, okay. And generally now you have an integrated loudness which is, how loud the entire track is from start to finish. And that's how, when it goes on to streaming, it will be adjusted up or down. Well, no, usually down, not up so much.
so that most of the tracks are as similar in level as possible. And then you don't have to worry about peaks. But I also know with production libraries, I've talked with composers, and it's this thing where some people, they hear things and they go, Oh, the tracks you send in must be this luffs or peaking at this luffs. Well, is that integrated as in the overall track? Is it momentary, which is the short one? Is it short term luffs?
But they've just come up with a figure, and then composers are worrying, Well, what should I do? I
So the, yeah, the, the difference between say a hip hop track and an orchestral classical track with the, all the dynamics that are involved in that. That can be quite enormous level wise, can't it? When you're playing it back on your streaming service or whatever.
and if it's going to be mastered, it doesn't matter. Just leave some headroom, and it's going to be sorted out. Does it sound good? And that's the other, you're back to, Does it sound good? Send it off to be polished.
Yeah. Leave it to John the Warlock and, uh, all, all will be well.
Yeah, and there's, there's just so many things like that that you can do, but ultimately the tips of things is just play and have fun.
Yeah.
So if you've learnt what things sound like, mess with it. Um, I'll often, if I load up a plug or even a distortion thing, you know, just crank it up to all full. What is this doing? And then pull it back and go, yes, no, I like that. And there's also a really good thing, I use Logic, but particularly for saturation plugins that you want to see is if you put the Logic EQ and then before that use the test oscillator and make sure you mute because otherwise you're just going to get that coming out.
And then, oh no, then you've got to put the saturation or any plugin before the EQ. So I'm using the EQ as an analyzer basically. And if you've got an analyzer, use that. But you'll see with say that one kilohertz test tone, and then you put your plug in on, and then saturate it, you can see all the little harmonics coming in. And it's like, ooh, so visually being able to see that this is what's happening to my sound. I always find that quite useful as
Oh, I'm going to try that. I'm going to have to listen back to this and try it for myself.
sometimes you can do that, and you just crank it full up, and you're like, oh, that's not actually doing much. And then you add another thing, which you think is quite subtle, and you're like, ooh, look at all that colouring going on up there. That's interesting.
Amazing. Amazing. And of course you have, an online coaching service as well. So even if people want to do it themselves or aren't in position to outsource that, you can go online like this and. Talk things through with clients, can't you?
Yeah, I find that's become more popular over this last year or two. And mainly you hear more about how, you know, the internet was going to be this freedom of information and it's going to be amazing and wonderful. And now we have just so much information and some disinformation or not so good, you know, do this every time on your vocal parts. Um, And generally what I'm hearing is that people just don't know which thing to do or not. So there's a confusion.
And I love being able to just either in maybe one session, all the way to almost continuous, that you can answer their queries, and then they go off and you can just see them heading off because you've just answered an issue or something they were frustrated with. Click done.
Yeah, which can change everything. You know, the, the, the worst thing, worst position that people who record find themselves in is six months later, that little niggle that they had kind of spoiling it for them six months later when they think back and say, I wish I could have fixed that little thing that was annoying me at the time.
It's a pet thing I have of, um, I want people to be more confident. And that's in what they're doing, but in life as well. You know, you can you can learn confidence because I think some people say, no, I can't. Some people are lucky to have been raised in a family environment where there are confident parents and they're introduced to different lifestyle and everything else. And it's like, yes, go out there and I shall do.
And hello, handshake with somebody, you know, and seeing some, it's those basics of talking where so many people now after school or university you're hearing they're not comfortable because they've just been behind a screen most of the time and then going out like we're talking about networking going out and doing that and actually just seeing so and then to be able to do that approach with work and just go i know my sound i know this this is basic eq a compressor will do Don't get hung up on
your compressor. Uh, you know, logic. I will talk about logic because that's the one I do. But you've got all variety of compressors in there. You can pick any of them. It really doesn't matter. But there are favorites and there are particular things and characteristics. But you can do some changing. Does it sound right? Job done. Move on. If you then wanted somebody to come and look at it and say, How did I do or what? Fine.
Hmm.
But learning the basics, and that's very often what I cover, and clarifying, I suppose.
Excellent. Excellent. I will put a link in the show notes for people to rush down and get in touch with you, uh, if they're having a bit of trouble with their mixes. Are we ready to go back in time, John? I want to know how it all began for you. Doodly
And now, back in time.
Here we are. And strangely enough, because I'm away from the studio, I am actually in my childhood bedroom at
That's amazing.
So that, yes, that's quite pertinent and a little bit freaky, but there we go.
So
So I am truly back in time.
You look younger as well.
oh, now I know you're lying, but that's very nice of you to say. So, here we are. How did it all start for John? Was music a part of your life from an early age? Was it a bit later? How did it all start for you? Oh,
was seven and back in England where we always did recorders for everything. That was, um, you got given an alias plastic descant recorder or something.
The brown with the, uh, kind of cream
high quality. Love it. And then they've got a treble version of that. But yeah, my junior school had a really good teacher and I wish I could remember names. But you just have that involvement of being part of a group, and we must have sounded quite hellish with a whole group of like 10 to 20 recorders going off.
But I was always encouraged by my parents to learn, not in a musical household, my dad played piano, we had a baby grand, which he dabbled on but didn't really learn, and my mum didn't play anything. But I was just encouraged that way. And I've done recorders, piano, clarinet, and singing. So those were my main,
multi instrumental.
Yeah, and it, I mean recorder was my first instrument until I was about 18 I've had a gorgeous handmade treble recorder, which sounded like a wooden flute. Um,
Wow. See, I, I did, I did a very similar thing. It was kind of the equivalent of the wider opportunities, isn't it? Where every kid in the class got a recorder. I went on to the treble as well. Um, but yeah, didn't last that long. That's amazing.
Well, yeah, it's just one of those things. It was good. But also the clarinet I had to give up after. Grade 5, because it gave me tendinitis in my wrist. Because I don't know, you know, being a recorder, I'm showing you now, but you can't see it. But you put the recorder on the pad of your thumb, whereas the clarinet, the rest goes on to the side of your thumb. And that, basically, I had this massive lump come up in my wrist, and I had to have cortisol injections and things.
And it's like, Sadly, I had to give up the clarinet because it just kept on doing this, even wearing straps and things to try and take the weight off. But, no, just a varied bit of music and very much that rotating bit of concerts, exams, um, competitions, and just doing this over and over again.
Um, I did, thankfully, and when in hindsight you can look back and go thanks to my dad for making sure I was doing my practice you know it's like do you practice because sometimes you're doing three or four hours practice a day and it's just getting through that um I did some jazz from the ages 13 and 14 and do sort of like traditional 1930s 40s
Right. Hang on. Rewind. Rewind. You did some
yes I did some jazz
Can you elaborate on that? I mean, was this clarinet? Was this
Oh, sorry. No piano. No that was piano jazz recorder. Now there's a classic. Oh, hello. Hmm. I, I feel an album coming up.
The, the John Ellison Hartley trio. Oh,
yeah, it was piano and very much, uh, retired. um, jazz band leader. He was in his seventies. And again, it's that thing of somebody who lived that era and came up in it and to be able to do stride bass piano. And I mean, I can't do it very quickly now, but you know, and your hand's just a blur, but the hours of practice of just doing that. Um, and I wish I'd done jazz much earlier because you're learning chords. So through my classical training, you were learning one note after the other.
And once I did jazz, I'm like, why wasn't I taught this, you know, an F minor seven. And that's that. And I can just, you start seeing the shape rather than, oh, having to work out every note of a chord. That's how my brain was working. So that was quite a revelation,
And in a way, uh, just going back to what you're saying about confidence that I think with jazz, you're taught confidence as well because you're, you know, you're, you're, you're taught progressions, but then you have to have the confidence to improvise.
And there's no wrong note in improvisation. you just move off it.
Yeah.
I love that. I love finding a dodgy, dissonant note and then home a bit. And then moving off. Because it gives that emotional ups and downs. If everything's just nice,
I think the phrase is dissonance and harmony, isn't it? Um, Beethoven was good at that. He'd, he'd go with the dissonance and then create this harmonious, lovely soundscape. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I loved, um, one thing on that where my publisher for years ago, something that stuck with me, um, when I was composing, instead of doing octave strings, which is the usual thing, you know, people are doing this lovely thing, adding like a major seventh or, um, a flat nine or ninth. And just doing that up and down. It adds that little colour of something. So it's not just boring octave. You've got this nice, um, parallel ninths or sevenths moving. Um, things like that.
Playing with that dissonance in character.
Fabulous. So we're up to, trying jazz out. What happened from then? So we're getting to the end of your schooling.
Yeah, schooling and into uni, where I actually dropped out of uni at the point. That just wasn't my bit. I went to Birmingham. And lovely place, but it just wasn't for me. And back then, there weren't as many courses like now, where I really should have gone to a, a studio technical course. And they had a studio there, but you were taught how to chop up tape. And, and make wonderful, mysterious sounds. And I'm like, well, this isn't recording music.
And from my school, it was very much where you go to uni and you do this. And I'd always done music, so it's just like, okay, you go and do music. but I did have a year at the Conservatoire in Birmingham on piano there, which was a great experience. And again, you learn more on that and pick up some tips, which throughout all of my training I then passed on because I taught piano for quite a few years as well. So that was really good.
I was going to say, you know, no matter, uh, what decisions you make in life, I don't think anything's ever wasted. So, you know, whatever your, your experience, whether you think that's not for me, you still take that experience with you, don't you?
Yes, and the people you come across, all those little nuggets, as much as I know with, um, Oh. I can't remember which, was that at the conservatory, where again, a practicing technique for doing fast runs, rather than just going da da da da da da da da, is to dot it both ways. So you go dun da dun da dun da dun dun, and then do da dun da dun da dun, so you're practicing pairs of notes very quickly.
And I used to do that and then just suddenly play it straight fast, you know, wow, how did that little tips like that and I always would be teaching that to my pupils and that stemmed from one person and then I pushed it on to many more from there, so Yeah, what can we learn and pass on?
I'm sensing right up until that point, you're seeing yourself as a musician.
hmm.
Maybe writing music. I don't know. Were you writing as
thought it was going to be little Mozart here with some manuscript and a pen or something
Yeah, so but this isn't where you are now. So what happened in between your decision to become mixing and mastering legend Warlock. Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh,
Well, that was getting back home and then working at a petrol station for about three months, which is good. That was an experience. I think I got some, some sort of qualification, but, um, no, I started at, um, a studio in Worcester, which again, that's happenstance of what, what carries on there. It was called the Old Smithy. And I met Paul Farrer there, So, I mean, most people have heard of Paul Farah.
And again, just looking back of when I first met him and how he would record and I just said, if only I could work like he works, he's, he's brilliant at analyzing what people want and then putting that into music. And just, you know, oh, it needs this, this, this, and this, put that together. Job done. And I did sort of 18 months in that studio. And because it wasn't as busy at that point, I could literally go in, um, in the mornings. What was it? Afternoon?
No, mornings that I spend into early afternoon and just play with stuff and learn. And then when there were projects on, I could just look and then also learn about mic technique and positions. And also then I did a couple of own little sessions that came in and just invaluable to be around that environment. And then also keeping that going, I went to work at, um, what was called Kay's catalog back then in Worcester, which was a catalog for, you know, for clothes and things like that.
Oh right, yeah, the Kays catalogue, back in the day,
Yeah, sort of like old, old school Amazon where basically you're going around picking things out and then I got to manage one of the floors there, after a few months of that and it's like brilliant. And then you go off and thinking, right, okay, it's time I've raised some money and I've bought my JV 2080, um, synth and a few other bits and bobs. I've still got my gear down here. My Akai. S3000 XL sampler and oh yeah fancy stuff. But you had to earn and buy your equipment at that point.
they've probably got some listeners drooling at the mention of that.
It's, it's fully packed out with the extra boards isn't it?
Oh God. Yeah,
composing but how do you do it?
And I had a friend who, he talked about the publisher who I then went with, and it was on the fifth attempt, I was about to give up, that I'd sent stuff to, and I was like, and also getting over that being knocked down, and also that love of creativity where you're very naive thinking, oh this is the best piece of music ever, and I've put my heart and soul into it, and oh it's going to make me millions, and then they get, yeah I could do a little tweak or this, and yeah, try harder, and oh. So
be pretty demoralizing can't it?.
yeah, but thankfully, he said, fine, that was that was good. And then I basically went into a whole load of production music and albums and things and working several years for that, which reading plenty of sound on sound, which that was just invaluable at that point. I was also lucky because I taught Paul White's daughter so editor of sound on sound Paul White, and he was just absolutely amazing and generous. And, you know, she did just some advice and things like that.
It's, uh, it's, we're back to again, people who, who do you meet and who are the people who can do that? And that's where I suppose I like I was helped. And I like to try and help now as well. It's like, it's that, I don't know what's the word, paying it forward sort of thing of, yeah. And who cares what, you might just be able to give something to somebody that lets them travel off and find their path.
Yeah, yeah, you know, we've, we've, been in the game a few years now. so we know exactly what it feels like to be in that position where you think I am utterly lost. I don't know what, quite what to do. So to have just a, a little five minute chat and a friendly conversation for people who reach out is, is invaluable. You know what it feels like for them.
And they know what they're talking about, their experience. And it was the same thing, um, because living in Worcester and you've got the Malvern area, there's a lot of musos there. And you had David Lowe as well. And it's just those people where you just get little nuggets and generosity. Absolutely invaluable. Um, and that's, yeah, just developed as composing, doing everything. I mean, I remember doing a, I did a Latin, it wasn't salsa, but it was something else.
But back then we, I ended up going to the library to get the CDs out because we didn't have the streaming at that point. So. It's like come back and then learn all sorts of rhythms and then put that album together, do a kid's album, um, do some dance stuff, do some orchestral, really that mixture of music. And through that, then my publisher at around, what is it, about the year 2000 said, you know, can you master this production album? And of course the, the response you give is yes,
So that was completely out of the blue.
Yeah. was literally we've got this to do and you work closely with somebody and then that comes out And that again is oh crap, right go through all my old sound on sound magazines. Oh, yes learn about this Um, but then i'd already learned how my gear sounds I think I had, um, is it not AKG? DT 150 headphones. I can't remember the make now, but they were closed pretty decent bass response and everything else.
And I used those to rely on because my speakers at the time, I think I was still working on my hi fi speakers back then. And to be able to use that and just work probably 10 times as hard and do all the extra work for the money I actually got, but. having about six different composers on that first album and I couldn't get re dos of the mixes or anything.
So I always like trying to see how can I make this sound better that maybe isn't ideal in the first place and then bringing them all together to make it a homogeneous album. And then probably after doing At least one or two a month of that it took me about two years before I actually went, okay, I think I'm a master engineer now, I think I've done enough to be able to say, yes, I can do this.
Yeah, yeah, there's, there's a little theme there because you're saying about composing for a production library and then coming back and saying, uh, no, you need to tweak this. Uh, so you have to go through that time where you're learning, learning, learning, in order to get to the point where you go, I can now do it. I'm now, confident to do
But I would say I'm not totally confident now. And I think if, if you're ever,
Yeah,
say I am the best and it's like, that's rubbish. I believe I'm good at what I do but I'm always double checking and listening and, oh, I wonder if they like it. When you send something back, is the client happy? And have you done all the things or maybe told them something that you've spotted that they may fix? Have you done your job as the quality control side of the job as well? It's not just about working on the sound and giving them some feedback.
Or, um, I always remember one album had a track in it There's something over there, um, on that side. Is that deliberate? And they went back and they, they had a fader still up, which they hadn't intended. So it was just like, oh, thank heavens you spotted that. It's that sort of thing of working with somebody rather than just going, okay, there you go. Pay me.
Yeah. And I can confirm that as well because you've stem mastered one of my EPs and I can confirm that it's more a collaboration working with you than it is a service. It's more kind of, right, together we're going to take this and make it sound could possibly be if you left
Yeah, and it's finding your sound. I mean, you did a wonderful EP for that and it's just like how creative and it makes you just go, that's what you want to have that feeling. You, yeah, it's, it's having it back. So all the hours and work and time and money of your life getting to where you are is invested in this. And then you're going to somebody who you're going to trust.
And that again is a leap of faith because it's like, well, I could do it myself, but to hand it over to somebody who's then going to come back, that's quite nerve wracking. So that's what I then feel. So I'm handing it back. And then for you to go, Oh, oh, that, that I really like that. Or if it's a question of, Ooh, I like it, but there's just a little bit too bright or something. Oh, that's your personal preference. Okay. Lovely. We can tweak this. How's this now? Oh, lovely. Happy with that.
Brilliant. That's
And I think that what you're saying is, is be confident with that, because, um, I think a lot of people might feel a bit reluctant to point out to a mixing mastering engineer. Actually, I don't like that bit because what do they know? You know? So what you're saying is it's, that's okay. It's a two way conversation. If you have a preference for something in particular, then you should say so. You should speak up.
Yes. It is a service. And as much as hopefully you're working with somebody who is a good master engineer and they know, but also you're there to guide the client. Now, if the client has a particular liking to something that's really bright or really dark, that's their choice. And you can talk with them. You might get, I've only done it once I think in my career, where I say, well I can't do this, because I wouldn't be happy with releasing that.
And that's where you just have to be honest and say, clean slate you know, don't take any money, job done, thank you very much and good luck. Um, but, that's, that's a personal thing as well. Whether that's the right thing for me to have done, I have no idea. But yeah, everybody's got their own thing. And then you're back to again, if you know what the sound should be like that you want, and if the mastering person hasn't done it for you, then tell them you're paying for it.
absolutely. Yeah. That's cracking. Uh, so John. I ask all of my guests to leave an item and a piece of advice in the music room for others to find. So what would you like to start with, your item or your advice?
The item is earplugs and multiple pairs of earplugs so you have them everywhere just in case wherever you are to protect your hearing which I know anybody who knows me if you're out at an event even at a talking event whatever I've you're generally up to like 85 to 90 decibels at least and maybe above that. Even being on the tube in London, any environment, you're, you're anywhere into 90 to the hundred decibels and you can't recover your hearing.
And if you want to work for as long as possible, we, it deteriorates over time anyway, naturally. So to keep it as good as possible, um, always have them. I must give you a link actually. I think it was, was it helpful hearing or something where brand of molded earplugs, ACS. They cost about 140 or something, but there's a service where if you prove that you work in the industry, you can get, it's about 50 pounds. So you get an ear test and get them moulded.
So things like that, there's, yeah, if you want to look after it and I haven't used my ACS ones for about 10 years because I shoved them through the washing machine and that sort of knackered them after 10 years of use, but yeah, getting even the little silicon ones, just shove them in, and keep your hearing as good as possible.
Absolutely brilliant item, that's going in the music room. So what advice would you like to leave? Wow.
do, but it's ultimately about the people, and surrounding yourself with good people, uh, removing the not good people, because it's toxic, and it's very much that old thing of you become the people who surround you, you know, who you're with, you pick up all these habits, it's a bit like when you grow up as a child, you know, you get influenced by the bad person or something like that and pick up little things.
So yeah, when you're at events, and in work, but also in personal life, who do you want to be? And who can challenge us? What who can we learn from? And who can we share with? That'd be my point.
Amazing. Amazing. That goes into the Music Room. I hope listeners benefit from, uh, those two things. John Elleson-Hartley. It has been wonderful chatting with you. Thanks for joining me in the Music Room.
Thank you so much, Gareth. Absolute joy. Brilliant. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to the Music Room podcast today. If you'd like to know more about the show or the community that surrounds it, head to music room.community. The link is in the show notes.