Welcome to the music room. At this time in the music room.
So that's what I used to do. I used to sight reading my lessons. And I think I didn't realize that actually stood me really good stead for, being a session musician. I mean, turning up to sessions where you don't get a chance to see any of the music before and you're there for sort of six hours, sight reading everything.
Hello, and welcome to The Music Room, the show where composers, songwriters, and musicians share their stories of how they got started, as well as leaving useful items and advice for others to find. Let's see what items we've had recently. A Roland MC 500 Mark II Micro Composer on the track by Fred Carlin. That's a book. Uh, A Casio keyboard, a little black book of people, but who's is who's? I hear you cry. There's an easy way to find out. Just head to musicroompodcast.
uk and you can listen to all previous episodes of the Music Room for free on me. That's 12, 044 minutes of content for the delight of your ears. Yes, I added it up. And you are welcome. Today's guest has an extraordinary tale to tell. So extraordinary, once trombone player Carol Jarvis started talking about what she's been through, I had to hear the whole story. And I'd like to issue a trigger warning here.
Carol's ordeal was life threatening and involved a close call, so if you'd hear about that, perhaps skip the chat. Carol Jarvis, like I said, is a trombone player on the move. She has new music out, she's just off a series of dates with Rita Ora, and has played with loads of big talent like Seal and Amy Winehouse. She's also an educator, a podcaster. I won't get into too much now but stick around, it's a brilliant chat and I'm really grateful to Carol for sharing her story.
But before that, music stories. BBC Radio 2 has announced an exciting new commission for autumn, Doctor Who at 60, a musical celebration, a special concert to be held on Thursday the 28th of September 2023 at 2. 30pm at BBC Hoddernot Hall in Wales Millennium Centre, Cardiff. The two and a half hour concert will feature the BBC National Orchestra of Wales and the BBC Singers.
directed by Alistair King as they celebrate the glorious musical sounds of Doctor Who in a special 60th anniversary celebration. The musical pieces include I am the Doctor, Abigail's Song, This is Gallifrey, The Impossible Girl, I am a Good Man, The Shepherd's Boy and the timeless Doctor Who theme as brilliantly imagined by composers Murray Gold and Music Room Guest. In other news, the Tower Series 2 is now on ITVX featuring marvellous music of previous Music Room guest, Nanita Desai.
Nanita said, A pleasure to work with mammoth screen and exec slash writer Patrick Harbinson, who execs one of my all time favourite shows, Homeland. And that's all for Music Stories. Carol Jarvis is an in demand session musician in the UK, a multi award winning trombonist, keyboard player, arranger, orchestrator, and voiceover artist.
She has toured, recorded, and worked extensively with the likes of Sting, Queen, Seal, Rod Stewart, Amy Winehouse, Bon Jovi, Ellie Goulding, and more, and appeared on many renowned TV Harry Connick Jr., Michael Bublé, Taylor Swift, and so many more. She's a professor of music at Trinity Laban Conservatoire of Music in London, and the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester, and is currently president of the International Trombone Festival. I mean, how? Let's get in there so I can ask.
Carol Jarvis, welcome to the music room.
Thank you very much. What a lovely room is.
Oh, as is yours, as is yours. Very nice. How are you today? You just did a gig over the weekend with Rita Ora.
Yeah, we did. Um, we're in Sweden and then Switzerland. and yeah, we've got quite a few more dates to come. I'm exhausted to be honest.
Ah, well, thank you ever so much for making time. It's very nice of and I'm sure listeners will get a lot out of our discussion today. So, I mean, you do that a lot. You just up sticks and off you go and go to gigs here and there.
Yeah. I'm just kind of, I'm just looking at the diary the next sort of, I think two, three months. And I think I've got at least one flight a week. Um, and sometimes four. So it's kind of like,
No way. Wow. in your intro I mentioned your session playing, your touring, your recording, your voiceovers. You're a professor, you're a president of the International Trombone Festival. I mean, you must live your life at a thousand miles an hour.
Yeah. I think, I think I kind of always have done, but I think that kind of stems from when I went through cancer. So I actually, um, I'm sure it might come into the, into the conversation, but, I think when I was told I had a limited amount of time left, I kind of sped everything up.
Oh, wow. And you haven't stopped.
Yeah. Trying to just live my life as fast as I could and as full as I could. Um, but I think during lockdown and everything, everything slowed down and I really, really welcomed that break. It was really nice. But I was extremely busy, but I was at home at least.
But I think, yeah, it's, it's funny the way you sort of freelance freelancing goes because you sort of, you say, you say yes to the first thing that comes in because you haven't got too much in the diary, but then, well, then the thing else comes in. Usually for me, it just clashes. So you have to say no. Um, but when it does fit, you're like, well, yeah, I've got to do it. And then something else great comes in and it just fits in. You're like, well, yeah, I've got to do that as well.
So then you're just like, my God, when is my next time off?
It's absolutely the freelancing way, isn't it? Say yes, and then figure it out. Afterwards.
we used to have those paper diaries and I just sort of say, yes, say, yes, say yes. And then look, turn over the page once I've put the phone down again. Oh, we're going to make that work.
So two things, uh, we can discuss in whichever order you like, you have new music out, you know, in between touring and stuff. Uh, and you have a podcast on the go exclusively for Spotify. So what should we start with? I mean, there's a lot there, isn't it?
Yeah, they both sort of started at the same time, but, um, well, they were decided to launch at the same time. But the music sort of all stemmed from, um, lockdown, just a lockdown project that is finally coming out years later, because I hit 10 years in remission, um, from Hodgkin's lymphoma. And I thought, well, I wasn't meant to hit day at all. So let's write music. Let's. Make a celebration outta this because you, you never really get like, right, you're clear.
You're never like, that's it, it's all over. You never get told that. So you're just in remission. So that, and that kind of feels, you're still connected to it in a way. Um, even, even though it remission is, there's no cancer at all. But I still feel like the word remission kind of still connects you to that story. So I'm not like through remission or anything, do you know what I mean? So it's kind of like, 10 years in remission, I thought, right, well, that's, a milestone to mark.
So I thought, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna release some music. Um, most trombone players, um, they tend to write either, well, release either classical or jazz albums. And I thought I want to do something different. Oh,
Boy, it's, it's so different, isn't it? I mean, I'd never, I mean, it's joyous for a star. I mean, when you're talking about celebrating milestones, it really is. You can't help but, smile when you hear that music is
I'm glad. Good.
and yeah, like you say, very different because the lead instrument is a trombone for essentially a dance track or dance
I know. Yeah. And, and, and, and I thought, well, it needs to be, it needs to be celebratory and needs to be at least uplift people. They need to make you smile. Um, and, uh, just been working with my producer, George Holliday, and just, um, I think we've nailed it. I'm just, I've just really, really been enjoying it. Really, really been enjoying it. I've got remixes in the pipeline.
I've got another EP Um, so I, I mean, it's funny how you write so many tracks and then sort of narrow down which ones you want to actually release. So there's, there's loads sort of sitting in the background, but yeah, the process has been absolutely brilliant. I love it.
Fantastic. And of course, You talk about the Hodgkin's lymphoma, which I'm sure we're going to touch on that when we go back in time as well. let's talk about your podcast. How did that come about? what is it? Tell us about it.
So yeah, the team I'm sort of working with, with sort of releasing the album because I've played on so many albums and stuff as a session musician, but never really done the releasing. Process. And, uh, and since I had a CD come out sort of 12 years ago, that was recorded when I had cancer. And it was just, um, to raise money for charity. I didn't have really any involvement in the, I've just turned up as a session musician.
So this is the first time I've actually been involved in how you release things. And since that first album, everything's changed, there's no streaming and everything involved.
Right. Yeah.
I literally didn't know anything about it. So the team I've been working with, we had the first meeting, they said, right, tell us all about you. And I said, hang on a minute, you've got this crazy story to tell about your health. You work as a session musician, you're a voiceover artist, you've done all sorts of charity work as well. Why don't you tie all of these avenues together and release a podcast? I was like, Oh my God, that completely makes sense.
Cause I've done quite a bit of TV presenting, radio presenting and stuff in the past as well. So I just thought, well, yeah, that does totally make sense. But I did think, hang on a minute. I haven't got any time for this, but now it's a great idea. Let's do it. Let's do it. So I've been, I've been literally playing catch up. from the moment we said yes, so one episode and then launch the podcast. So then I've been trying to record everything.
And yeah, just try and keep up with two weeks, in between each episode. Um, but really the whole first season is recorded. So, um, Yeah, I'm going to learn my lesson by season two and make sure I've pre recorded all of it. Um, just wanted to release it all at the same time as the album. So, and it's been amazing. So the first episode, I tell my story, from start to finish, um, which is, it's, it's a lengthy story. So it takes about an hour just to tell the complete story.
And, um, I've been flying all over the world, just, um, Well, especially in the last six or eight months or something, telling this story to medical companies all over the world, from Mexico to Croatia to Romania, just in the last few months. Because clinical trials, I went through three of them and most medical professionals who work in the clinical trial, supply or, uh, uh, marketing or whatever departments it is. They don't tend to meet anyone that has actually been through a clinical trial.
It's just all the data and the statistics and the, it's just numbers on a screen. And there's no names to that because it's got to be confidential. And so I'm going to these companies and telling my story, to try and keep them doing what they're doing. Um, which is, which is amazing. It's really rewarding to me as well, because it feels like I'm finally saying thank you to the people that have. I've been working on these drugs.
So the podcast is basically about overcoming something huge in your life. Um, so that was my story and I thought I'd better tell my story first. And, um, the guests I've had so far have been absolutely amazing. It's Sam Brown, who's, uh, I mean, chart topping hit, but she lost her voice and it's never come back. Um, she's overcome that. And she's released another album this year, using menadine and. Vocoders and things like that, um, without a voice, which is just, it's unbelievable.
And then, uh, uh, David Glennie, who started to go deaf aged eight, but then carved out a international solo percussionist career and still doing it. So, these people have got just incredible stories, not just musicians I'm going to be speaking to, but I'm starting with musicians because. That's who I know, um, but yeah, it's overcoming these huge hurdles in your life, but still continuing to be massive successes. Just incredible, really inspiring stories.
Yeah. And really inspiring people as well. I mean, yes, obviously Dame Evelyn Glenny, her reputation precedes her. Sam Brown, obviously. I mean, what a voice to lose.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Amazing. Okay. Well, are you ready to go back in time? Let's, um, find out how it all began. So here we are back in time. Uh, Carol, how did it all start for you? How young were you when you first became aware of music, your first music memories, uh, that sort of thing?
Well, I've got an older brother, um, who's two years older than me, um, and, uh, I think my parents were always, encouraging that you try literally everything, which I think any good parent should do. I mean, it all started with sort of recording lessons at college and at school, I mean, and I think every child, 30 kids in a classroom, all aged four or five, playing a recorder must have been hell for those teachers. but I found it very easy. I remember that.
And, uh, my, my brother started playing the cello from, I think, age six, so, he couldn't even reach his feet on the, on the ground when he was sat on the chair. So they had, I think, ice cream boxes for his feet. While he was playing the cello, which is amazing. So I mean, I started growing up straight away with my brother playing the cello. And I remember trying a few instruments here and there. I tried classical guitar. And I think I didn't have any lessons on clarinet.
But I had a clarinet that I played around on. And, uh, it wasn't until a music test aged 11 at school, where They sat all the kids in the, uh, in the hall, all separate a little piece of paper and played a few notes and things on this recording and say, right, if you can tell what's sharp and what's flat, and, uh, it got quite difficult, I think. But I, I found it extremely easy and the results came back saying, well, you can choose any instrument you like because you've got a very good ear.
You can, you can do it. I said, Oh, great. Okay, fine. Didn't really think much of it. But they said, We need an oboe for the school orchestra. So, we'd like you to play the oboe. So, the end of that day, I went home, told my parents, and I said, What's an oboe? They played me some more things, and I just went, Ugh, I don't like the sound of that at all. And apparently, I just turned around to my dad and said, What's the one with the slidey arm thing?
And they found some recordings and I think they played me all sorts of things like, some real comedy stuff, like from George Chisholm, fast forward a few years, I ended up having a lesson from George Chisholm, which was ridiculous. But yeah, they played me some recordings, some sort of marching brass bands, um, big bands and stuff like that. And I went, yeah, that's it. That's what I want.
Well, you just totally smitten from the word go
Yeah. Yeah. My dad managed to get hold of a, a cheap trombone. It was, I mean, it was, it was bent, but it, but it worked. And, uh, he brought it home and, I think managed to, it was like a book, a tuner day book in there about learning the slide positions and, and all that. So I just took myself away and I, yeah, I, I learned a scale before my first lesson. And, one of my, one of my good friends, I'm still in touch with now, he was actually witnessing my first ever trombone lesson.
And, uh, he said most. Brass players in their first lesson are taught how to produce a note, like buzzing, and I turned up and played a scale, it was like, overachiever from the start, it's just, um,
I, well, I had, um, I used to be a primary school teacher, so. I've been on the other side of that kind of wider opportunities thing where, you know, every, I think it was year, four, um, every child would, learn an instrument and I think in this particular year they had a choice. And one of them was the corn it. So I thought, oh, I'll give the corn a go. And it was exactly like you say, you know, I think I can just about produce a note.
From that lesson, that was the, uh, the, the, some of my experience. So yeah, amazing to turn up and do a whole scale. That's, uh, you know, you, you concentrate on how do you hold it? I mean, the trombone as well,
know, I know, I
all sorts going
loved it, yeah, I just loved it. I'm sure the teacher had to correct a few things here and there, but. Yeah, and I just had cornet teachers up until grade eight, I think it was because there weren't any trombone players in the area. So I was learning from trumpet and cornet method books with all the fingerings above the notes. So little did I know I was actually learning the fingering for a brass instrument at the same time as learning the trombone.
So fast forward, when I got to college, doing a doubling instrument on the euphonium, it was just like, well, that's easy.
Wow. Okay.
the valve. Yeah.
so you had a real affinity for this stuff. Going back then to, you, you just started learning trombone. You, you mentioned that, the powers that be wanted you to play the oboe, uh, it would fit it nicely into the orchestra or something. Did you then join, music groups, orchestras, that kind of thing
Yeah. So there was, um, I grew up in Milton Keynes. Someone's got to come from Milton Keynes. That's me.
with all the roundabouts?
All the roundabouts, they all look slightly different though. Um, and, uh, yeah, so there were so few trombone players in the area. I was basically put in every group straight away.
Ah, okay. There's a pattern forming here, Carol, doing everything all at once.
Um, yeah, brass band, orchestras, big bands, and Milton Key's music center service was unbelievable back in those days. I remember every evening of the week, apart from Sundays, there were rehearsals going on. And then Saturday mornings was off to the music center, but Saturday morning started at eight o'clock with musicianship and composition right the way through to, I think it was three o'clock in the afternoon. So it wasn't like Saturday mornings. It was all day Saturday, pretty much.
Um, and it was jam packed. And I remember being put in an orchestra for the first time. And there was this bass clef and I've been taught by cornet teachers who are obviously teaching in brass band and treble clef. Um, from these cornet books. So I get put in an orchestra with bass clef. I'm like, I haven't been taught how to play that. Here's the part. Play it. Okay. So I had to teach myself bass clef. And then there's obviously tenor clef turns up in the orchestra. Well, how do I play that?
Here's your part. You're in the rehearsal. Right. Teach myself. So I taught myself bass clef, tenor clef, alto clef because my lessons couldn't come quick enough. Um, because I was in all the ensembles. And I just loved it from the word go. I was like classical jazz, um, everything right from the start, which was, I mean, fast forward to. when I got offered a full time orchestral position, I was like, actually, I really like doing everything.
I don't think I can narrow it down and just choose one because I've always done a bit of everything and I still am doing a bit of everything, which I just love.
That's amazing. It sounds like you have that rare thing of having a good ear and being good at sight reading as well, which I know a lot of, a lot of, kids growing up with music and certainly as adults as well. I don't feel like I'm a particularly good sight reader, but I have a good ear. It's usually one or the other, isn't it?
Yeah, I think, I did rely on my sight reading quite a lot growing up because practicing is never really something. Um, it wasn't really, wants to do it. And it's the same as like scales, site reading practice. It's all something you're going to be examined on. So it's never exciting. Whereas site reading, I just kind of relied on because I didn't practice. as much as I should have done.
So I used to turn up to my lesson, trombone and piano, I used to turn up with a piece of music, literally dug it out, put it on the music stand and said, I've been practicing this, completely lying. And they said, Oh, okay, yeah, let's, let's hear it then. And then I sight read through it. and then the teacher said, Oh yeah, that was right. Then let's work at this bit. Let's work at that bit. So that's what I used to do. I used to sight reading my lessons.
Um, and sight reading bit of Debussy on piano was, was hard, but that's what I did. And I got doing that. And I think I didn't realize that actually stood me really good stead for, being a session musician. I mean, turning up to sessions where you don't get a chance to see any of the music before and you're there for sort of six hours, sight reading everything.
Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like you were almost using the lessons as practice.
Yeah, absolutely.
How do I improve on this that I've just played?
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Oh, fantastic. You mentioned the piano.
Yeah, so Buckinghamshire, um, there were some County Music Scholarships, and my brother, had got a County Music Scholarship, and it enables you to have free piano lessons. So, uh, um, I remember going into this County Music Scholarship with recorder, classical guitar, trombone, um, and juggling all these instruments as a little kid. And, uh, yeah, there was, uh, there was all sorts of things.
I played this, this classical guitar piece, And I made a mistake in the middle of the, of the, uh, the audition and I just stopped and went, sorry, and then carried on my, my trombone piece, I, I, I was just about to start the piano introduction started and I forgot to take the slide lock off. So I went, um, I had to stop, sorry,
Oh,
um, and I, I got through the audition. I thought, oh, this, I completely just fluffed it completely. Um, but I, I dunno who the examiners were. They said just a little tip. Don't say sorry, just carry on. Okay. But I got this, I got this, um, Wisconsin Music Scholarship and then I got free piano lessons. Um, and I'm so glad I got the piano lessons because, uh, I mean, any musician, I think if you can play the piano as well, it's just, it's all there in front of you.
And it's just, it helps everything. So, so good to be able to play piano.
Yeah. It's great to put things in context, isn't it? You can work out baselines and melodies and
Yeah, you can see the thing there.
yeah. Yeah. So after all your, teenage orchestral music groups, did the Saturday morning group go all the way through?
Yeah, it was constant. Um, it was, I think it was Monday night was choir. Tuesday night was brass band and trumpet. Wednesday was, uh, one of the youth orchestras and brass quintet. Thursday night was, um, the other orchestra. Friday night was, uh, I can't remember which one it is now. Um, I think it was the other brass band. Was it big band? And then Saturday morning was just, yeah, just, just ensemble, ensemble, ensemble. Lesson, lesson, lesson.
And we had musicianship classes, composition classes, and I was taking this huge keyboard in and learning about, um, sort of arpeggiators and, composing bass lines, chord sequences. So I was learning all of that when I was just a teenager. And then, it was, yeah, learning grade from, for grade eight, Cornet teacher said, um, uh, we should probably try and find a trombone teacher for you to get you through grade eight.
Um, finally some sort of specialist and, um, and this guy was absolutely amazing. Pat Kenny. He was touring with the Spice Girls and, playing with, uh, like Suggs and, madness and yeah, so I, I got a real feel for that kind of thing and, and we'd be playing through the grade eight repertoire. So let's do a bit of jamming. So he'd be playing the piano. Um, get me to improvise along and, so I got, I got such great grounding from him as well.
Um, and then when it was time to sort of audition for music colleges, I sort of decided Guildhall was where I wanted to go because they had the really well known big band and uh, the jazz side of things and the classical thing and composition, I wanted to carry on with everything. And I auditioned everywhere anyway, the academy, college, Guildhall, I think Birmingham and Manchester. And I remember getting a place everywhere and on the spot Guildhall said, here is your place.
And they literally sort of pushed it across the table to me in this interview. And I pushed it straight back at them and I said, I don't want to come here.
Oh, why not?
I think it was like half term or something. So the building was deserted and it was just like, I don't get a feel in this place. And I thought we'd just love this vibe. I thought this was where I wanted to go. But it was just. Got instinct. And I don't know whether that was the right decision or the wrong decision, but everything seems to have worked out. Okay. And the place that had the atmosphere for me was the RNCM. So I turned down Academy College.
The most people sort of gravitate towards the London colleges, but actually Manchester was drew me. Um, and again, they had all the big band and the classical side of things. And actually, I think, I think it really worked out for me because right from my first year undergraduate, I started freelancing with the Hallé Orchestra and the BBC Philharmonic, which all the trombone students in the years above me weren't yet doing. So it was kind of like, Oh, I don't really know what's going on here.
But, I think the standard in Manchester at that time, there were some incredible players, but there were other sort of players that weren't right up there. And I think I managed to sort of overtake some of them quite quickly. So I was sort of doing a lot of freelance work in the area and then big band work as well. I started doing Blackpool Tower Ballroom, from the age of 18. And joined Andy Pryor's big band. And my freelance work just got busier and busier throughout my studies.
So by the time I got to my final year, I actually had to say to the college, look, I'm on trial with the Symphony, I'm on trial with BBC National Orchestra Wales. I haven't got time to be here, but I'd like to do my final recital and they completed it and they said, yeah, we'll, we'll take care of all of the ensembles and just come back and do the final recital. So I was, I was just freelancing full time by my final year.
Which I, I, I mean, looking back now, cause I teach at the RNCM, and students are sort of just hoping for that first gig and that first sort of chance to get into the profession. And so I just look back and think how lucky I was to have. Um, yeah, I had several people that sort of took me under their wing and saw something in me. I gave me those opportunities. So yeah,
Do you think that came from your trombone teacher you were saying, he was playing the Spice Girls and, uh, other artists and just showed you this entirely other world to things. Do you think that gave you the now to, to go to college and go, right, well, you know, let's get to it.
I think, yeah, I, I do think, at the time I didn't realize I was being really inspired by him. but I think looking back, absolutely. He had a PhD in the ombudsshaw.
What
I know, I know,
exist?
I know exactly. I think you can choose anything to do a PhD on as long as, the pitch and you can say to people that, I mean, I started looking to do a PhD myself.
But. I'm not sure I've got time at the moment, um, but, um, but he, he started, yeah, he, he managed to do a complete PhD and I thought, well, I, I'm, I'm in really secure hands here with someone who knows all about the embouchure, uh, and the fact that he was, he'd done the touring, the session, the, the sessions, and he actually gave him my first ever professional gig as well, depping for him when I was 15 or 16.
So yeah, it's amazing that I sort of gained that from him and then I wanted to find a college where I could carry on doing all of that.
So, obviously you've dived into the world of work and freelancing and gigging and stuff. Um, let's go back to your cancer diagnosis. What happened then? Where, where were you in your life? when that hit you?
pretty much just graduated. my freelance career was literally getting better and better and better. And then throughout my illness, my freelance career continued to get better and better and better.
But I just found this lump in the left hand side of my neck, um, because we, we have loads of, uh, sort of lymph nodes all around our necks, and it was just sort of the base of my left hand side of my neck, and the trombone you hold in the left, on your left hand, the whole weight of the instrument goes in your left arm, and I think it's apparently the heaviest musical instrument where you take all the weight in one arm, and your right arm has got to be completely free from the slide, so I just
thought, well, it's just muscles. It's just muscles going wrong. Um, and I was working literally every single day. I wasn't even taking a day off, because I was loving it. I was saying yes to everything and just seven days a week, without a doubt, just working. And I remember this lump getting slightly bigger and slightly more painful. And so I thought, well, I'll go see a physio because I remember this great physio that the Halle, members used to go and see.
Um, cause I hurt my neck at one point, like the top of my spine or something. So I went, went to see her, for this little lump in my neck. And she said, I'm not going to touch that. Have you got a good GP? And I said, not really, no. Um, she said, well, if you've got a friend nearby who, who's got a good GP that, you know, I've said, yeah, actually just not far away, but slightly out of.
Where I'm meant to have a GP, so, right, well, can you change your address to their address and go see their GP? Yeah, yeah, I can do that. I'm doing that. And she said, yeah, do it, do it today. Okay, yeah, okay, I'll do that. So I managed to get this, uh, get to see this other GP, and, uh, she said, I'm not going to touch that. I'm going to refer you to ear, nose and throat department. and she got this red pen out and wrote the word urgent. So, okay. Didn't think anything of it.
and, uh, and so, I, I, I just about to start touring with the show, Chicago. just around the UK and then going abroad. Um, so, I was just about to head into literally full time show, and, uh, I got, I then got sent to ear, nose and throat department. They had a camera up my nose and down my throat. They couldn't find anything. Um, they did a needle biopsy, which was like a, um, syringe, trying to go into the tumors.
Which we didn't know were tumors at the time, um, to try and pull cells out to find what the diagnosis would be. Came back, um, weeks later and they said, well, we haven't found any cancer cells. So, we don't think it's cancer, but we think it's most likely to be HIV or Hepatitis B, C, or typhoid. That was the list they gave me. And I was like, oh my god, right? Okay, I'm just in my early twenties. Um, they said, so we're going to have to take a node out and get a definitive diagnosis.
So a few weeks later went in, they took a little note out of my neck, a general anesthetic. And then a couple of weeks later went back in for the results. And I met the surgeon who I met in the anesthetic room, and I wasn't really expecting to meet a surgeon in an office. I was thinking, don't you just do like surgeon things? And he came with a diagnosis. Um, and he said, unfortunately, we don't know if it's spread anywhere.
So we're going to have to send you for a full body scan and, uh, and then take it from there. And, uh, yeah, so it's just, yeah, ridiculous. How have I got cancer
Yeah.
went for a full full body scan and then went for the appointment then met my first oncologist. And he said, unfortunately it has spread and it's in between your lungs and it's 15 centimeters around between your lungs. and he said, chemotherapy starts on Tuesday.
Wow.
my God. The first thing I said was, how would I not know? But I've got this 15 centimeter round tumor in between my lungs when I'm a trombone player. And apparently we use our lungs as much as professionals people do. That's literally the lung capacity that we use. And he said, you've got so much room in there, you wouldn't have a clue. Chemo starts on Tuesday. And I said, well, well, well, well, in my early twenties, how about saving eggs, for, for future and later in life.
And he said, chemotherapy starts on Tuesday. So that was it, that that was the start
Wow. when they'd given you the, the initial, it could be this, this, or this. Did you then go off with Chicago and tour? Or at that point, were you thinking, I
the tour had. The tour hadn't just started yet, so I got my diagnosis on the first week of the tour. I'd just started it Glasgow on the tour,
oh, wow.
came home, um, got the diagnosis and then, um, they said chemotherapy's gonna be every two weeks on the Tuesday morning. And the, uh, the side effects, from the dose on Tuesday morning, last till about Sunday. so you feel absolutely like death from Tuesday to Sunday, but then I had a week off from chemo. So the tour manager actually said, well, why don't you just come and do the show every other week?
And I said, if I'm allowed to do that, I'd love to, um, cause he can easily just get someone else could be doing it full time. but he chose to keep employing me and I really needed that. Um, that kept me going. So it was just one week chemo, one week touring, one week chemo, one week touring. And that was how the, how it all started.
That's incredible that you chose to, uh, to, to dive in and, um, especially with the tumor where it was as well. Um, I think it, it speaks to your resilience you
Well, I mean, by this time, um, I'm in a tumor on the left hand side of my neck had, um, it was, it was up to, I can still feel the sort of scarring from it, um, up to there and it went right down to over my collarbone. So it was a good, I don't know how long that is,
why are we,
but so it was big in the, in my neck and it was big in between my lungs. But yeah, it was kind of like. In a way, I could segregate the hospital stuff and then my life in a way, I remember someone saying to me at the very start, hang on a minute, you've just been given this diagnosis. And this guy said, if that was me, I'd shut myself away for those six months of chemo and just concentrate on doing that. And I said, I absolutely couldn't do that.
There's no way I could just shut myself away and just do chemo and not have a life outside of that. That would kill me. so I think actually keeping that going, touring and, having the chemo and separating the two just spurred me on, gave me energy
And how long did you have to have chemo?
while that, that course was six months. and, uh, I remember after the second or third treatment, the lump in the side of my neck seemed to have gone. I was like, well, this is working. This is amazing. It might be making me feel like absolute death. I lost my hair within the first few treatments. but I can't feel the lump anymore in my neck. Obviously, you can't feel anything between your lungs, so you've got no idea. Um, but after the six months of treatment, I had a scan.
And, uh, I remember the chemotherapy nurse, once I got the results from the oncologist, um, saying that the treatment had failed. the chemotherapy nurse gave me the tightest hug and just said, I'm so sorry. And we'd been, we'd been laughing and bonding throughout all the, all the treatments, but she was so serious. It's okay. He's just said, there's something else we can try, but she knew something that I didn't. And that was my prognosis was really good.
In your early twenties, when you're diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma, your prognosis from especially the primary chemotherapy, it's really, really good. once that's failed, it starts taking a nosedive. and then the next treatment that chemotherapy failed, and then the stem cell transplant that failed, and then the radiotherapy failed, and then the next treatment failed. And it was fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, constant back to back treatment.
and then come 2006, they then said, we're afraid that you're not going to terms with this. and actually you're not going to survive because we've exhausted all avenues. we're going to send you to a psychologist to help you get your head around the fact that, yeah, you need to get your affairs in order. You need to go and write your will. And, uh, they started telling me that and I said, right, I don't understand, I don't understand, I feel, I feel fine.
but there was this stubborn tumor in between my lungs and, uh, yeah, it was, it was horrible to be told that they never said the word terminal. They never said that, but they kept telling me that I wasn't going to survive. because we exhausted all avenues of treatment for Hodgkin's lymphoma. Um, but they said, if you're willing, we'll look out for some clinical trials. And I said, well, yeah, I've got no other choice.
Some people, and I know people who have been on a very similar journey, they've been battered so much by this treatment, they then said, no, I'm done. but I said, yeah, I've got no choice, of course, I'll sign up to anything you find. and they said, well, hopefully something might come along and it was literally like that, right? Go away, go on tour with cancer and we'll let you know if something else turns up.
And we had regular scans because, uh, just as soon as the tumor sort of start picking up a lot of speed again, because I think all the treatments sort of did a little bit, sort of stunted it a little bit, but then it grows again. but then when it started picking up speed, they said, right, we need to really find something quick. And, uh, the first clinical trial I went through, that failed. but the specialist that I had was just unbelievably retired now.
And he was one of the sort of top two or three oncologists in Europe. And he was bringing back all these, these ideas and treatments and things from all over the world, all these conferences used to go to. And, uh, after this first failed clinical trial, he said, this is actually really interesting though. I said, okay, you haven't just said failed.
You've said it's interesting because you have responded a little bit to this clinical trial and the way clinical trials are going is it's, um, it's more directed to your type of Hodgkin's lymphoma. It's not just Hodgkin's lymphoma, um, it's to do with the proteins that exist on your tumors and the tumors were called, um, I think, I think it was like CD30 positive. I don't know what that means. Um, but this clinical trial was anti CD30. So I was like, well, that. Matches that.
Um, and so they were, that, that's the kind of thing they need to, um, to find for me. And he said, that's what we're going to try and find. So basically that the infusion goes all around your system, but it only releases the treatment on the tumors because that's where the proteins exist. They don't exist anywhere else in the body. So in theory, the treatment is then a lot stronger right on the tumor rather than regular chemotherapy, which literally hits everything in your body.
So again, I went back on tour. I was touring with Seal at that time. and literally flying all over the world. And Seal, bless him, he could have got someone else again, employed someone else that could be there all the time. Um, but on days off, that was me flying home for, scans or treatment or flying back again for a blood transfusion or whatever it was. and then eventually there was a second clinical trial came along. Um, CHT25. It's just got code names before it's got a name. Um, and, uh,
like compressors and things.
yeah, yeah, I know it does actually, yeah. Um, and this, this, uh, clinical trial was happening in Perth in Australia and in London in Hammersmith. And there were just two of us in London and I think three people in Perth. That was it. and so it just shows how, like, these clinical trials just, it's just a handful of people that might do it. And I managed to get on this clinical trial and, uh. all they could tell me was, uh, it's highly radioactive.
They couldn't really tell me anything else about it. And I was locked in a lead line room for nine days and injected with this highly radioactive drug. And I've got a video on my phone, um, because, uh, because this drug was so radioactive, this syringe, normal size syringe surrounded in lead, but that had to be on a trolley surrounded by a wall of lead. And wheeled into my room. It's just a tiny syringe.
So you know how lighter syringes, but it's on a trolley surrounded by lead to try and protect people from this drug. And the people that wheeled it in, connected it all up, set the infusion going and then had to wait outside and protect their own organs from me behind the lead screen. and so I was locked in this room for nine days and a man with a Geiger counter came to the doorway every day, measuring my radioactivity.
Um, and I've got a video of him as well on my phone because I just didn't believe it. I just, I feel absolutely fine what's going on. and in the middle of that treatment, I went for a nuclear scan. and yeah, it's just, it is insane. When I talk about it, I still think, oh my God, this happened to me. but yeah, I mean, eventually got through that treatment, had a scan. It failed. and then I went on tour with Sting for.
I like, I was meant to stay two meters away from people for the next couple of months because my radioactivity is still coming down. And I went on tour with sting and, uh, I was like, I've got to be on stage now and I've got to sit next to people. So I've got to tell everyone around me, look, this is,
I'm slightly radioactive.
um, and people like, yeah, and then I came out in this, it was straight after that tour, I started coming out on this rash. and you've got to report every tiny thing to specialists because it could be. Related to this drug that you've just been through.
Um, and this rash got more and more intense and it sort of started on my tummy, but then spread upwards and then spread downwards, down my legs, all the way down my arms and just spread outwards and to the, to the point where I couldn't actually see my regular skin color anywhere on my body through this rash, it was solid and so, so painful. and I went into hospital one day to say, look, I need some help. And I lifted my t shirt to show them this rash.
And the specialist just went, oh shit, and I went, okay, I don't want you to do that. tell me what it is, what's happening. And he said, we don't know. This is a clinical trial. This is experimental. And he said, I guess you're kind of being sunburnt from the inside outwards and I hope it gets better. And I this is going to go or if this is going to get worse and worse and worse. And it eats me away. No, we've no idea. I hope it gets better. And that's it.
That's what happens with experimental drugs is you are statistics, you're, you're what you're, what you respond is going to go down in some data and they'll try and improve from it. So it's, it's literally potluck, whether you have a clinical trial, that's going to really, really make a difference or you're really, really. Respond badly. Um, that's what trials are for.
And then, um, another clinical trial came along and I was like, Well, I still, I'm still touring, still okay, I've still got energy. And, uh, this next clinical trial, they said, the only statistics we've got so far is people get sort of, um, tingling, pins and needles in the hands and feet. so yeah, I can cope with that. That's fine. Yeah. So I signed up for this clinical trial and I was back on tour with And I signed up to six doses of this.
Um, this drug, and the pins and needles in my hands and feet start to get in sort of more and more painful. and I've, my circulation has never been fantastic ever since my hands and feet, but that's fine. but after the fourth dose, um, they wanted me to have a scan to see how it was going. So on a day off on tour, thankfully, I was just in Europe. Seal flew me home, um, had a scan and then, uh, flew back straight away the next morning to go and rejoin the tour in France.
And, uh, I landed at seven o'clock, in the morning in France, so six o'clock here. and I got a phone call from a specialist at six o'clock in the morning, seven o'clock in France saying, Carol, it's John. Yeah. You're in remission for the first time in seven years.
Wow.
I was like, what? And this, and this is the same guy that repeatedly for the last five years, last five years, repeatedly told me that I was going to die and to head around the fact that I wasn't going to survive. but then I knew I couldn't celebrate because I knew that this is a clinical trial, anything can happen. It can grow back next week. It could grow back today. and then we've got to try and find something else.
So once you get to remission, you've got to kind of get it while it's gone and get a bone marrow transplant. so it had a stem cell transplant in the past that was from my own stem cells. Um, but this time they said we need to find a donor, to find a better immune system to replace your immune system. So signed up for that as well. So I had a month to decide whether to go for this transplant or not. And this is the crazy bit of a story.
Um, so this is the crazy bit, So they gave me a month to decide and they said that if you leave the remission like that, we think you'll probably live for three years maximum. If you go for the transplant. And it works, you could live to a ripe old age, but we need to talk about the mortality rates. It's a 30% survival rate of this transplant. We'll try and find a donor for you. So, there's a month to decide. They found two matches out of 11 million people.
One was pregnant, so they couldn't ask her, it was the wrong time. And this German man, he said yes. He was a perfect match. So this month to decide, I literally could have taken either decision. I took myself right to every possibility of each decision. And I just decided I don't want any regrets. Even if I go for the live for three years at the last little moment, I don't want to regret having not given the bone marrow transplant ago.
If I go for the bone marrow transplant, it doesn't work then. And they come and tell me, right. Yeah, it's not worked. You're, you're not going to survive, you've got a day or two, I don't want to regret having just given it a go. So I signed up to it and I thought, right, I'm going to give it my best shot. And so they, you start intensive chemo, you're shut in this, this isolation room for, I think it was about six weeks, just this room.
And, uh, they give you intensive chemotherapy, which I'd had in the past, um, so I knew how horrific it was going to be. On day, minus nine, day, minus eight, a minus seven, minus six, minus five data down to day zero and day minus nine, my donor is over in Germany having some injections to boost his blood count. So he has maximum amount of cells to donate day, minus eight, day, minus seven, day, minus six, day zero is transplant day where he is in hospital in Germany.
He has, and he's told me about it because I've met him since, um, he had a needle in one arm and. Everything coming out in whizzing through a machine and then everything they didn't need went straight back in the other arm and he went back to work that afternoon. So, um, that's, I think that's 98% of donating now is just like that. Most people think it's gonna be painful and no, no, no, that's the patient.
The patient, when you go through a bone marrow biopsy, which I've had several of when they drill into your hip bone. That's the bit that hurts, but no, the donating is, I mean, that's a message that just people don't know. He went back to work, these cells go through some testing and they go into a, an ice pack container with a courier, a sand luggage on a plane straight to my bedside. And I've had intensive chemotherapy. I feel like utter death by this point.
And before the cells arrived a team of like, no, one's allowed into my isolation room because it's got to be, I've got no immune system. So if anyone comes in with dust or a cold or anything, it can kill me. but this team of microbiologists all came into my room, masked aprons, gloves, a team of them. And I was like, what's going on? What is this? And they said, we had a phone call from the hospital in Germany. And we're afraid that the cells are contaminated. And I said, what do you mean?
They're contaminated. And they said there's a chance of toxoplasmosis. I said, well that's gonna kill me. Hands down, 100% that is gonna kill me. I'm not gonna have it. I'm not having the infusion. Right, I refuse, I'm pulling out at this point. And they said, well actually, you've now got no immune system. You're gonna have to have this infusion. Because otherwise you're gonna die. Because there's no one else.
That can save, you know, it's like, Oh my God, and they will run some tests when they arrive, but the tests won't come back for two or three days. So the cells arrived in this big syringe. And I've got this Hickman line in my, in my neck, coming up my chest. And this nurse just connects it up four o'clock that afternoon. She slowly pushed it in. And I'm wide awake watching this happen, looking at the syringe, thinking this is going to kill me.
Wow.
And It was terrifying. That was the most terrifying moment. And I got, yeah, welling up now just remembering it. Um, three days later, the microbiologist came in and said the test came back negative. So I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. But I still had the, the opposite, the 30% survival rate
Yeah.
hanging over me, which lasts for about the first year because the anti-rejection drugs and it's real touch and go. and you're very, very, very weak. For at least a year. but yeah, after six weeks, my cell count slowly came up from zero. They could open the door. I'd lost so much weight because I mean, the intensive chemotherapy gives you ulcers and every part of your mouth and all the way down your throat. So you can't eat anything. Um, apart from ice cream. That was it. there are bonuses.
It was chocolate, but yeah, Eventually, two years post transplant, I was allowed to find out who my donor was. and we both swapped details and I flew my mum over to Berlin and went and meet him. And, uh, this complete stranger who saved my life.
Wow. That's, I
story. Sorry.
even, knowing the end of the story for a minute there. You know, I can't even imagine, what that moment must've felt like. It, you know, it's a, certainly some perspective for listeners who might think, I'm feeling a little uninspired today. I can't think of a melody or something, you know,
Yeah, I mean, it's,
that's something else. It's a whole different league.
it was, it was just, it was ridiculous. I remember a speech I gave over in Croatia back in October. And, uh, when I told that bit of a story and I said that we think the cells are contaminated, I said, well, that's going to kill me. There was a lady that came and spoke to me afterwards saying she said she just she couldn't breathe. She was like holding her breath. Trying to wait and find out what the outcome was. And I said, and then, Oh, of course you survived. Of course. It's like, yeah, I am.
And so full circle back to you releasing your EP, releasing your singles, um, and you know, talking about celebrating the milestone of 10 years in remission that now becomes so much more meaningful, doesn't it? So I encourage everyone to go and have a listen to what they called, uh, where can people find
So, yeah, so the EP is called, um, in my veins, it's all related to my journey. So in my veins is all about the treatment being in my veins, the cancer being in my veins, the everything just going on. And I mean, post bone marrow transplant, uh, I've now got my donor's DNA. And my blood type has changed over to his blood type as well. But that's, it's full of hope that first track. Um, and then the second track, um, called radioactive is all about that, that clinical trial I went through.
And there's some, um, sounds in that that represent all the Geiger counter on the way. Um, there's a track called, um, the risk is taken, which was me signing on a dotted line for the bone marrow transplant and knowing the mortality rates and just going, right, here we go. So there's a load of determination in that one. Um, and there's another track called fusion, which is about the fusion of my donors DNA and my blood type and just fusing into who I am now. And then there's a
Which is basically one step away from a Marvel character. Let's, let's be honest.
Yeah, exactly.
Amazing.
then the, uh, the last track is called, uh, moving on. Um, because once I got through everything and, um, they said, it looks like you've got a future ahead of you weirdly. And this is what threw me completely was I really couldn't cope with that mentally. I think I was kind of like, I thought I was in denial when I was being told I was dying for such a long time, but that psychologist, I think really did his job.
And I'd got my head around the fact that I was dying and that's why I was living at a million miles an hour. Because I didn't have much time left. Um, but then when you're told you've got a future, psychologically, I was just in a mess. And I had about 18 months of depression then. And, uh, actually was sent back to the psychologist to undo everything that he'd done. And helped me not be afraid of the future because I was terrified, literally terrified of the future.
it's like being launched into outer space and it's like, there you go. I was like, I can't cope with it. So moving on, um, it's about that. There was this one appointment with my psychologist where he said, well, how did you live your life in the thick of this? How did you cope with it? And I said, well, I remember in the transplant procedure. Which was the hardest moment. Um, there was a nurse came into me. They used to sit with me at like two o'clock in the morning.
I was just, everyone else was asleep, but I'm a musician. Of course, I'm awake late. So nurses come and sit with you and chat. And she said, when it gets really hard, just break it down to the, to a day at a time. And then she said, if that gets too hard, break it down to an hour at a time. And if that is too difficult, just try and get through the next minute. And I was literally doing that. I had to literally try and get through the next minute because it was so hard.
and so I had to just live in the now and that was it. I said that to my psychologist and he said, well, people struggle to live in the moment all their lives. So if you know how to do that, just carry on doing that. And then everything literally just started just coming back into place. And I think I still live in the now I do. I still don't really, I don't know. I don't know whether I've got any goals and ambitions because I still sort of. Living in the now.
Good. Good. Long may it continue. Carol, you're an amazing human being. just amazing. What an inspiration.
a long story, sorry.
No. Yeah. I wasn't expecting that, but I'm so glad that you told it. Um, yeah, quite blown away by it. I mean, there's plenty of advice in there for, for other people. but I do ask all of my guests for an item and a piece of advice that, may have helped them, in their, in their own musical journeys to leave in the, uh, the music room for others to have an item that you could leave?
Uh, couldn't live without my trombones without a doubt. Um, I think, I think making a bit of a little recording studio for yourself, I started off with just basic little gear that slowly upgraded it mostly off eBay. And now really decent studio and a nice little mobile studio as well. Um, which I use for my voiceovers and podcasts now, on the road.
So I think these days the music industry is just changing so much and moving at such fast pace that I think everyone needs to be really versatile and have, many strings to their bow. I mean, especially things like lockdown, I suddenly became so busy because I had all the gear. Anyone who didn't, weren't as busy at all.
So you'd say, you know, create, a creative space for yourself.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's, it's just your own little safe little space as well. You can be creative. You can be imaginative. You can do, and this is where I've written my music. I think it's, as creatives, we need to have a space to be creative.
Fantastic. Well, let's call it a creative space that is going in the music room. There's a space going in the music room for others to find.
A big item.
yeah, a big item. Well, it can be as big as you want. Can't
Yeah, exactly. It could be a little room if you want.
so what advice would you like to leave in the music room for others to find?
I think if it's a young musician, it's to everything, because that's, that's stood me a good stead. And you've got to do that for several, several years to get established.
And now I know I can say the word no. I think, I think that is, Great advice, even if it's like a gig that you're offered a big band gig and you've never played in a big band in your life, but you're a young musician, you don't know where life's going to take you, you don't know where that next big break is going to go, you don't know who is going to be sat next to you and going to offer you that next gig. So that's what I did. And it's literally.
worked out really well for me, but also, another bit of advice, which I'm trying to listen to myself now is slow down, take time and breathe.
Fantastic. Well, that can go in the music room for you. As I said, Carol Jarvis, you are an amazing human being. Thank you for your story and thank you for joining me in the music room.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to the Music Room podcast today. If you'd like to know more about the show or the community that surrounds it, head to music room.community. The link is in the show notes.