Alex Attwood & Grace Meadows talk about mental health in the music industry

Uh, musician a mix or mastering engineer at a label, whatever it is, how has working in the music industry affected your mental health? It's a question that we perhaps don't ask ourselves often enough. I've wanted to make a special episode around mental health for a long time. And recently I felt like there were a lot of people in the music industry who are perhaps more aware of their own struggles. So if you're listening to this, having experienced mental health issues of your own.

Then this is for you. If you've listened to this episode and recognize that perhaps you might need to explore your own mental health further, then this is also for you. I'm going to look at the terminology surrounding mental health and some of the diagnosed mental health conditions or disorders as they're sometimes known, uh, and in return, I'd like you to consider the question. Does that sound like me?

And if it does start thinking about what you can do to either seek, help or improve your mental health in some way. And believe me when I say you're certainly not alone. Being a composer songwriter or musician, for instance. Often involves long stretches and isolation. And one of today's guests is going to talk about their experiences of that in more depth, that guest is Alex Atwood, a composer specializing in production library, music.

My other guest today is Grace Meadows, head of music minds matter. Uh, for those of you who don't know what music minds matter is, their tagline is always have mental health support in your pocket. And grace is going to explain what they do way better than I can in a few minutes time. But if you work in music and are struggling to cope or know someone who is, you can talk to music minds matter, it doesn't have to be a crisis or about music. They're here to listen, support and help at any time.

Right. Let's have a look at what it all means. I sometimes hear people describe having mental health issues as suffering from mental health, which when you think about it, it doesn't make a great deal of sense. You wouldn't say suffering from physical health. So I want to get that out straight away, because if we're having a conversation, it's important to get these things right. And to look past the catch-all term of mental health. Oh, okay.

From the world health organization, they have key facts on their website. One in every eight people in the world live with a mental disorder. I'm not sure I like the word disorder, but that's what they use. Uh, mental disorders involve significant disturbances in thinking emotional regulation or behavior. There are many different types of mental disorders. Effective prevention and treatment options exist. And most people don't have access to effective care.

And so that last point, I think in the UK, there are certainly organizations you can reach out to one being music minds matter as I've already mentioned. Uh, they list disorders as anxiety disorders, depression, bipolar disorder. Post-traumatic stress disorder, schizophrenia, eating disorders. disruptive behavior and the social disorders. And neurodevelopmental disorders. So they go on. Who's at risk from developing a mental disorder.

At any one time, a diverse set of individual family, community, and structural factors. May combine to protect or undermine mental health. Although most people are resilient. People who are exposed to adverse circumstances, including poverty, violence. Disability and inequality. Are at higher risk. Protective and risk factors include individual psychological and biological factors. Uh, such as emotional skills as well as genetics.

And I find that really interesting because although it mentions genetics there at the end, Some things can be passed down, obviously. It leads with a variety of factors combining to create a scenario where your mental health can be affected. And anyone who sat in a studio for months at a time writing and recording their best work, often emailing a networking to a wall of silence. That to me, sounds like you could be vulnerable to mental health issues popping up.

Okay. So that's a bit of background to what I'm looking at in this episode. But before we get into the music room, let's have some music stories. I asked the music green Facebook group. How has being a composer, songwriter, or musician affected your mental health? Uh, there were replies and some agreed to have their replies read out now. I'm not going to mention names outside of the Facebook group, just to maintain that trust and support within the music green community.

First one reads I'm currently living with chronic illness that is at times hugely limiting. Over the last couple of months for the first time, it's affecting my ability to write music and work for any significant length of time. And this is heartbreaking for me. In the past, I've had anxiety and depression and realized at the time that it was in part due to taking a long career break from writing music. Once I started up again, everything changed.

It turns out I need to compose to keep me level and happy. Now I'm anxious about what will happen to both my career and mental health. If I don't get physically better soon. Next I'm write music and books to aid my mental health. Unfortunately only have to do it as a hobby rather than rely on for income. I've been three dark moments in my life and I've survived to tell the story. That's great. Please reach out as everyone here in the group is here to help each other.

And that's really nice of you to say. Uh, lastly, I was diagnosed with bipolar when I was 30. I have a rare kind in which I only suffer with highs. I say suffer, but the truth is one or two highs have helped me produce my best work. That's interesting. As long as one is mindful of what triggers them and takes the medication consistently and follows doctor's orders. There is absolutely no reason why they can't live a full and wonderful life medication for life, and also happy to talk.

Should anyone wish to. That goes to show doesn't it that you don't have to be at a critical point to address these things. And in that case, recognizing what the issue was. Has helped them. It's also one of the things I love about the music room community. Everyone is so thoughtful, even when they're talking about themselves. So music reamers, thanks for turning up and taking part. I really appreciate it. And those are today's music stories.

Composer and multi-instrumentalist Alex Atwood is known for his versatile and atmospheric use of live and electronic music. Creating scores that enhance and compliment in any production commissions include the longest reign, top gear Caribbean with Simon Reeve. Oh, that's great. Rivers, dispatches and master chef. Great Meadows is the new head of charity music minds matter and is called upon people across the music industry to widen the mental health profession across the full spectrum of roles.

Evolving out of the charity help musicians. Music minds matter began in 2017 as a 24 hour helpline for music industry workers to call for support and help while this helpline is still a key part of the offering. It's now charity in its own. Right. With big plans for expansion. I was blown away by the Canada of Alex and grace. It's made me think about my own working day. So let's get into the music cream and hear what they have to say.

Composer Alex Atwood and head of Music Minds Matter, Grace Meadows, welcome to the music room.

So we think very much about what that musician or creator wants to achieve in their career and we, and we support them as, as best as we possibly can. So that comes with all kinds of different advice that we provide, whether it's business advice, whether it's health or welfare advice. But what we noticed around 2017 was that we were receiving more and more, Inquiries about the support for mental health needs of musicians.

And that was a trend that was coming to us as well from across the industry as a whole. And so we set up a program within Help Musicians called Music Minds Matter. And what we realized was actually it needed to be its own thing because of the scale and the challenge that was being presented to us around mental health and the music industry. So a couple of years ago, um, it broke away and became its own charity, but it's very much. Connected into into help musicians.

So if you're a musician and you're coming to us with a mix of issues mental health might be one of those, then you'll be channeled into Music Minds Matter and and vice versa.

If you come to Music Minds Matter and actually the support you can access from help musicians, then You're very much signposted that, but Music Minds Matter, the big point of difference between that and Help Musicians is that Music Minds Matter is here for everybody working in the music ecosystem, because we can't just single out one group of people or one strand of the industry. Because, mental health belongs to us all.

And so actually, in just supporting one group or one segment, we're not really tackling the challenge that we're facing around mental health. And so whilst we provide services, we're also working to change culture around mental health. And for us to be able to have conversations around mental health, where people feel safe to do so.

But also for the industry as a whole to be putting mental health much more stage when it comes to working practices the way that we want this industry to be understood, uh, in terms of how it's supporting the people that help it thrive.

And as I was coming in from work, my fiance was getting up to go to college. Uh, about four nights a week, mornings a week. And I didn't think that that was conducive to a happy marriage moving forward.

So I was sort of rattling my brain as to how to make music work for me, but in a way that might actually dovetail into family life and, um, yeah, sort of composing popped up as an option and I spent about two years, just Presumably what everyone else did just writing demos desperately trying to get work from anywhere Landed a couple of lucky corporates and uh, and then spent a whole year I must have sent off about 300 dvds that were tailor made for different companies I'd researched and they all

used to get individual postcards I had three rejection emails out of the 300 and no other responses. It was, it wasn't quite soul destroying. Interestingly, the soul destroying part of the career came later because I was young and enthusiastic at that point, and I evidently had enough there. Hutzpah, just to keep going, and out of nowhere I landed a Disney cartoon from a company I'd not even approached. You know, you make your own luck, I guess.

You know, the universe answered me in some peculiar way, and that was lovely. So I did a couple of cartoon series with Disney and a couple of subsidiaries, and just as that was kicking off, we got hit by 2008, and All sorts of things got cancelled, including everything I was working on. Coincided with us moving from Edinburgh to Herefordshire, which is obviously very rural. Um, wasn't a whole lot of sort of music stuff going on, and I certainly hadn't got the wherewithal to go looking for it.

Because I've never had to, it had always been on my doorstep. And I think that's something that I've really taken home after, you know, a long time now. Is You've got to realize what it is that you need early on and know how to look for it. But it's easy to say now. So yeah, I did a bit of library work, managed to get a BBC job and then spent about five, six years doing BBC documentaries and travel docs. Uh, and it was great.

Um, for one reason or another, that petered out, people moved departments, different budgets went, it's the way of the world. And. I ended up back with the library that I'd done work for and have a very good relationship with the UK MD. And that's all I've done for about five, six years. And it's lovely. He's a super guy. I like everyone in the team. The music is diverse. I get to write everything from sort of big band Latin to string quartets to country.

It's yeah, it's, it's a good way of life. I do enjoy it. Um, it has its drawbacks, which is why we're here.

That is, that is hard. That performance element. And, and I don't think that's unique to just to musicians. I think that is in any role, especially when so much of the industry is structured around a freelance basis. So,

And so there are lots of things that then span out of that, whether it's, you know, the sense of control, autonomy, agency, and all of these things are critical to positive mental health. The idea that you've got some, some ability to control what's happening around you with the knowledge that you can't control everything. That's, that's really important.

But I think what accompanies, you All of that is the stress and the burnout that comes with that perpetual need to be on, to be visible, to be ready, to be responsive. But also the anxiety that that can bring and then the depression that comes with that, you know. But we've all got a little bit of elastic in us and we know when we can give a little bit more and then pull back and go, actually I can take the foot off the gas a little bit at the moment because I know this is coming along the way.

line and I probably need to save myself a bit for that, but actually when that elastic is constantly being stretched, it's going to lose that, that ability to be tense and you're going to find yourself collapsing. So I think that those are some really, really key, key things that we're being presented with at the moment. And then of course, you know, what that does over time, you know, as humans, we expect to experience stress.

It's an innate Feeling within us is what's kept us alive as a species, you know, to be able to ward off threats, but It's when those stressors become chronic and they're having detrimental impacts on our well being that we're moving into different territory around our mental health and our well being. And it's when they escalate and there's, behaviors that are, uh, really unhealthy that accompany that or find that actually it becomes a really acute condition.

So, I think overall, having come back from the pandemic and now in this cost of living crisis, we thought things might be slightly different. But actually, I think there's this panic to do things really well, constantly on. And then, as I say, the anxiety and depression that comes with that, and the stress and the burnout. And of course, then, you know, the isolation and loneliness that that can give rise to. You might not want to talk about any of these things.

And so you can feel very alone, which again, just perpetuates things. So it's really easy to find yourself and, and other people actually in spirals.

Um, I think the bit that, just to get back to what Grace was saying about the people accessing the services that she's offering with Music Minds Matter and Help Musicians is, I think even if you're accessing them, That in itself shows a sort of self awareness, which I think a lot of people could really use more of, including myself, certainly.

I think a big issue I suffered from was that I simply didn't have the emotional wherewithal to realize that I had become incredibly isolated, that I was stressed out. I was looking at everything in a very black and white manner. I'm married, I'm healthy, I have friends. What's the problem? Come on, pull yourself together, man. It's just a bit of work.

And so to answer your question, I first noticed it was after we moved rurally in Herefordshire and the work had dried up from 2008 and I was sort of beavering away, making demos and doing this and that, but I was basically creating smoke and mirrors, not to pretend I was working because I genuinely felt like I ought to do something, but actually it was just So that I felt that I was doing something. And, um, increasingly I used to find myself sort of sitting on the stairs.

Three hours at a time, just with my head in my hands. And rather than going alarm bells, I'd sort of get up and go, Right, that's sitting on the stairs taken care of. Let's go and sit outside for a bit. And feel miserable there. Again, without really thinking, Oh, this is a problem. And it came to a head. I think my wife came back and went like, you could just get a job and maybe earn some money and go and meet some people, get some self esteem.

And this was an absolute anathema because I'd already decided that I was a full time composer and I hadn't realized how much of my self worth I'd poured into that construct. And to have the, this fragile construct shaken about like that turned into what we. Described as mug gate. I was so angry with her, I threw my mug of coffee into a tree.

And it's only really been in the last sort of year or two that I've gone, Uh, I've worked on my own for 20 years and we live really rurally. And I quite often go for full days at a time. In fact, frankly, full weeks at a time. Where between, you know, nine and four, I won't speak to anyone. I won't see anyone. There's no one to nudge and say, Oh, have you just seen spectrosonics? I've just done the latest update or, Oh, I've just written a really, really bad four bars.

That's taken me three hours. What a klutz. There's no feedback. So it's not even an echo chamber because there's no echo. It's just nothing. And, So without wishing to be unhelpful, I feel, I feel lucky because I've had regular work and that's lovely. So I haven't had the anxieties that, that Grace was talking of, and there's certainly been points at which I have worried very much for what I'm going to do for money.

But actually, you know, I've been so, so lucky with my publishing company and library. They've been brilliant. But what I have only just realized is that Actually, you, you do need to be around other people for a portion of the day. You need, you need feedback. I, I would find myself going into social situations, you know, maybe once or twice a week. And I've almost lost the art of conversation. You forget.

You'll say something in a jokey manner, and then wildly overthink it afterwards because you've not really had any practice. So you start to lose your sense of, well, confidence, I guess. I even got social anxiety, which is not something I've ever had before. And I know it's reasonably common, but it's not something I'd had. And, say, it's just Solitude. And the big hurdle for me was admitting it. People have hangups about different things. I've never been ashamed to say I'm out of work.

I haven't got any money, or I'm not feeling very well, or I've failed at something, or I've upset somebody. A big hangup for me took me about 15 years to say, I'm lonely. That was about the hardest thing I'd ever had to admit. And it sounded all the stranger to me because. I do have friends and I do have a loving family. So I couldn't really work out any of the very sort of British thing of, well, well better not make a fuss then, because actually the architecture of my life is fairly robust.

So, um, maybe there isn't a problem, but it's got to the point where. I can't, I can't deny there's a problem and it's not fair to those around me to deny that there's a problem, you know, we have to accept it in order that I can do something about it. And it's lovely because I do talk about it a lot more and, uh, interestingly that has encouraged quite a few other friends of mine who I thought were in a perfectly normal situation to go, Oh, actually I work on my own and it's fine.

Really, really, really hard. And it's making me a not nice person to my family. And it's, um, it's a bit of a taboo, I think. Um,

That's, that's why we, you know, we're having a nice conversation now we can see each other. And I love that, you know, it, keeps. the wolf from the door, or you know, whatever you want to call it. In the Music Room community, we have a regular weekly cuppa, cuppa and chat it's called, and um, it's usually nine o'clock on a Thursday morning, and we just talk absolute nonsense. But it is that kind of office feeling, Grace, you're in your office now, but We're not. We're in a room by ourselves.

And, uh, it's just a nice thing to do to even if it's online, you know, it's, um, it's nice to have a

And I think that they're the kind of existential big life questions that can sort of get in on you, which I think are good to talk about. think about, but actually if you're not able to voice them and share them with other people, they can give rise to serious anxiety. You know, you're sitting there practicing fingerings and thinking, what difference am I going to make to the world by learning how to do this? You know, that really can shake you to the core and make you feel really anxious.

And then it's only years later when I'm sitting in a music therapy clinic room and I'm like, well, I can play that transition really easily. I mean, no one else knows that, but there's this tiny kind of, it's worth all those hours of isolation, but you know, was it, you know, so there's just the, the isolation can really be quite a fertile breeding ground.

And, and that's why I think the contact with other people is so important so that you can sort of reign that in and, and keep it safe, you know, because it is important to think about those big things, but not all the time. That's, you know, you've got to stay present.

Therefore, in order to keep up that social interaction that we need so much, you've got to think ahead of the curve and go, right, well, look, I probably can't have someone in this room with me right now. I can't, you know, if you're in a solicitor's office, you could talk to other solicitors about soliciting things. I can't talk to her about the latest, API 2500 compression knee, which is actually what I'd love to do, just for a little bit of time, not all day, but just for a bit.

So you've got to set up that little meeting, or, and that's what your coffee mornings are so brilliant

And that's what I mean about the scales falling, and for me the biggest hurdle was realising that that was, I mean I'm not saying it's the issue, but it's certainly, you know, you control the variables. And we all need things to live, thrive and survive, and one of those important things is, you know, you sleep well. Try not to drink too much alcohol, and you try and be around people who, if, if not at least make you feel good about being yourself, remind you what it is to be human.

And, as Grace was saying, it's an inherently, lonely and vulnera vulnerabilizing, vulnerabilizing, uh, career, because there's, there's no structure to it. You don't enter at level one musician, level one gigging, level two composing, level three mild fame. It's complete free fall. So you're making your own rules.

Therefore you have to bounce off other people who are in the same experience just to be able to compare notes and to say, Oh God, your middle finger drop off after you practice going from F to D for three hours. Yes. All right. But then I did a gig. And I nailed it. So it was worth it. And so it gives, it contextualizes everything. I remember my brother who's a medic saying to me 10 years ago, I don't know how you do it.

He's like, not only do not know how much you're going to get paid at the end of every quarter, but there's also no metric with which to assess how you're doing in your career. You can't say I've got, I've got band H I'm on 25, 000 pounds a year. I'm aspiring to get here. You could be writing the best music in the world and no one's listening, or it's brilliant to you and no one cares. Or you could be writing music with boxing gloves and on BBC every day making millions. It's, I mean,

So I think in the way Alex, you were talking about, working out what you need as a person. I think that's one of the, one of the first things that you can do a preventative step you can do is try and we think we know ourselves and then, you know, mug gate happens and you go, Oh, hello. Hi. Oh, where have you come from? You know,

So I think there is a duty of care to be had around how do we help people think about what success looks like. As you say, Alex, when there's no structures there and you know, one day you can be gigging and it can be the best thing and you're on the road for ages and you're having a great time, but then whoa, All of those gigs dry up and you've got to go back into the studio, but actually you can't afford the studio.

So, you know, that kind of precarious nature of it sort of goes hand in hand with what success looks like because success for most people isn't a steady thing. So it's being able to find a way to hold on to your core, I guess, so that you can navigate that precariousness and the ups and downs of what your success looks like because Nothing is ever constant. That's the thing, isn't it?

Uh, I'd certainly never thought about it. It was funny you saying hello, who's this guy who suddenly walked in, something did change at that point, I wasn't just sort of sitting on the stairs feeling miserable, I also got angry, I'd get angry in the car, on my own, in ways that I'd never done before. And it became like a third person in the room. never to that extent again. But certainly, I'd never been angry about anything before. And now, sort of 15, 18 years on, that guy's still there.

He's a lot quieter, but he's still there. And I'd, I'd, I'd love to shush him up a little bit more at some point.

And it was a bit like going to church when you're a kid, you kind of slightly drag your feet on the way there going, then you do it and it's not that bad. And then you walk out going, either because that's it over for another week or because you actually really enjoyed it and got something out of it. And it's lovely. You just need the diversity of experience. And just to remember, you're not the only person in the world.

It's good just to get a different breath of air and to remember, you know, you're not the only person who bad things or good things have happened to you. It's really nice. And actually even. Side hustles.

So I have done quite a lot of carpentry and furniture making And different jobs and the more you do the more you get out and it's lovely and I find the more It's not the more time I spend out of the studio It just makes coming back to the studio more of a pleasure because you miss it It feels like a drudge. But the other thing I was gonna say is so it's really essential Own your decisions.

So it's really, really hard to make it in any kind of artistic career because of all the sort of, you know, the lack of direct, um, well, directions and, as we were talking about. I often wondered, well, at what point do you just say, maybe I'm just not very good at this. I, I I'd like to think the world's not ready for me, but maybe I literally, I'm just not that guy to do this thing at this time. And if you do just, just own it and go, cool. Well, that's all right.

So I'm going to take what I've got and what I want to give, put it elsewhere. I'm still the same person. Or you can say, no, I am going to keep knocking on the door and it might take another five years and it's still going to hurt, but I'm going to own that. I'm going to own that it's, ah, it's painful, but it's on me. It's not on them. I'm not going to blame anyone else for not hiring me.

And that's what happened to me when I ran out of road with writing documentaries and writing for the BBC, which was, you know, it was a really nice stage of my career. And after they dried up, I used to go to London all the time, go out for coffees, everyone was very nice, you know, loads of stuff fell through. Maybe some of it was personal, maybe some of it was circumstantial, I don't know. But in the end I kind of went, 20 production companies can't all be wrong.

So, come on, let's do something else. At which point I kind of went, well look, actually this library is really lovely and I am still writing music, so just do that. And I'm not saying no to the other stuff, but just own it. That's fine, I'll do that now. Because otherwise you just end up blaming. And that's the worst thing, you mustn't put that on anybody else. You've got to be master of your own situations.

Frustrating when other people change the course of it in ways that you don't want, but you've got to own it yourself if you want to move forward to the next bit.

Then you aren't then going to give that critical voice or your top dog, whatever people, I know everyone's got a different name for their critical voice inside. Mine's top dog. Um, but you know, but you know, you can turn around and say, actually, can you just get off my case? I did a really good thing today, or I've worked on this project and I've done as well as I possibly can on it. So, you know, I can't give any more of it and I have to just let it go. And then it means that you're not.

You're not blaming other people. If you haven't done a good enough job, well then you can give yourself a hard time about that and you can give yourself permission to be cross with yourself. But, I think there's something about being able to take the emotion out of it, ironically, and say, hang on, let's look at this in a really practical way. Did you give it the time it needed? Did you give it everything you possibly could?

Yes, great, well then, great piece of work that you can own, move on, next

But I think there is something about finding people who, who feel like you're a part of their tribe and they don't have to be doing exactly the same job as you in the industry, but they might be people who have a similar outlook or, um, people that you aspire to, you know, achieve as much as they've achieved or whatever it might be, but find them and then connected to that.

You might find yourself in a situation where you feel you can ask for support or mentoring or coaching in some way, because actually that can be a really good, sounding board and a way of holding yourself accountable to your progress or your success. As you're saying, there is no framework necessarily for success, but if you, if you have a mentoring relationship with somebody, for example, then you can set out your aspirations and, and put a timeframe around that. And then you can.

You know, sort of be checking in with them on a regular basis and saying, well, actually I've been really lax. I haven't done anything about this. Well, that's why you're feeling stuck, you know, or it's not quite as simple as that. I know, but you know, there's, there's a conversation that you can have there, which keeps you again, going back to the point that Alex and I both have been making around, you know, owning stuff and knowing what belongs to you and what belongs out there.

If you're desperately seeking to develop, then actually. That a lot of that sits with you. So you have to put things in place to help you do that. And having a, a confidant, a mentor, uh, a trusted somebody can be a good way of, of, doing that really.

That you need to find and it's, yeah, easier now with zoomification. But still a step away.

Because what we do is we play and it just reminded you just to enjoy playing like a kid. And if you want to spend ages and work out some sort of crazy diatonic polyrhythm, do that. If you just want to hit it and make a nice sound with your daughter or your mate, that's also really fun. So have a handpan just to play on and remember that it's just a handpan. Playing and fun.

Um, cause we're not perfect and, um, it's okay for it not to always be going in the right direction and to ask for support, um, and I don't think that we give each other or ourselves enough permission, so here's a massive envelope with permission in capital letters for somebody to cash at any point, anywhere. Yeah, absolutely. Permission and play. There you go.

Do as many different diverse things as you can. Play squash, help someone do dry stone walling, um, take an art class, whatever. Just change the landscape in as diverse a way as possible. Firstly, just to get some fresh wind on your face and then to make you appreciate when you come back to the studio. Cause it's ultimately our choice that we do that and we mustn't be its slave. Do it because you want to do it.

And the only way that you can remember that you want to do it is by doing other stuff as well. And we need it because writing music is a lonely, job And it can make you very vulnerable and you're putting yourself out there for other people to judge you, whether that's by saying, I think that's crap or I'm not going to give you any money for it, or I'm not going to give you the job.

So in order to develop the robustness to deal with that, get out and about, do stuff and then come back a little bit stronger.

And I would also say, whether you're well into your career, whether you're coming into the industry on your way out, just, you know, think about what success looks like for you and, hold onto that because You are not being measured by other people's success. What will make you truly content? And that's what we're looking for really in life is contentment is to know that you've done as well as you possibly could when it came to the things that you wanted to achieve.

So I think there's something about setting out that expectation for yourself when we manage our expectations, we're much happier people. So yeah, work out what success looks like for you. Everything that Alex said, which was absolutely spot on, couldn't agree more. And reach out to Music Minds Matter.