Be it Resolved: Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism

Welcome to the monk debate podcast. I'm your moderator, Roger Griffis. Our mission every episode is to provide you with civil and substandard debate on the big issues of the day, free of spin, focused on facts and animated by smart conversation. By the end of each debate, our hope is that you'll be armed with enough information to make up your own mind about any given issue on this episode. Way debate the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism.

When people sneakily make claims that they are for the Jews but against Israel. That's something that we can't just pretend is theoretically sound because we know the consequences that too often follow from it.

anti Semitism is New York Times columnist Bret Stephens. His opponent is Peter Beinhart, contributing editor at the Atlantic and author of The Crisis of Zionism. Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart. Welcome to the Monk debate podcast. Thank you. Good to be here, Brett. Since you're speaking in favor of today's resolution, be it resolved. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism. Let's hear your opening statement first start for us.

I think there's a common misconception that anti Zionism amounts to nothing more than a very strong criticism of Israel, and I'd like to begin by dispelling that notion. People who don't like the Netanyahu government that includes me, um, are not anti Zionists. That's part of the normal democratic debate. People who oppose Israel's settlement policies or its policies visa VI Gaza or anywhere else aren't necessarily anti Zionists. There are many patriotic Israelis who feel just the same way.

Anti Zionism is unique because it's view is that the Zionist enterprise, that is to say, the state of Israel is misconceived. It's wrong. And at the end of the day, it isn't simply Israeli policy that has to change. But it is Israel itself that has to go now. This is unique when you think about other countries around the world. Many of us are critics of China's

occupation of Tibet, Russia's occupation of parts of Ukraine. Some people are aware that Turkey is occupying northern Cyprus in violation of international law and putting down settlements there, too. But none of those critiques extend to calls that are now increasingly pervasive around the world, not only for Russia, China or Turkey toe change their policies, but for the states themselves to disappear, to be eliminated. So even if you accept the premise for one second. Roger that. Anti

Zionism is not anti Semitism. You have to come to grips with the elimination ist ideology that is at the heart of anti Zionism. But anti Zionism is anti Semitism. First of all, it's anti Semitism for a reason. I just suggested it is. It singles out the Jewish state for opprobrium and with a prescription that anti Zionists apply

to no other state. Second point, that's very important is that anti Zionism tens very frequently to traffic in images, in tropes and in libels that have a long history in an anti Semitic tradition stretching back for thousands of years. So, for example, when you hear that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza and it course manifestly is not, you are abusing that word that is trafficking in a classic anti Semitic trope, suggesting that the Jewish people have a particular

kind of bloodlust. Or if you say that Israel or Israeli leaders have hypnotized the world to get them to do their bidding, that again goes back to an old anti Semitic trump. And finally, anti Semitism is anti Zionism because, like all forms of Jew hatred in history, it has adapted itself almost like a virus to the cultural and

political fashions of our day. Today, it is very difficult for people to be anti Semites to hate Jews for racial reasons, for the obvious reason that that kind of ideology, fortunately, went out of fashion with the destruction of the Third Reich. It's unfashionable to hate Jews simply on a

religious basis. But it has become fashionable to hate Jews, using the excuse of their statehood, of their nationality and of their willingness to defend their borders as the latest pretext to single out Jewish people for opprobrium and for hatred that is applied to almost no other people. If no other people in the world. That is why, in a nutshell, anti Zionism is indistinguishable from anti Semitism. It is the anti Semitism of our day. Bret Stephens. Thank you for

that opening statement. Pierre Beinhart. I'm gonna turn the microphone over to you. Let's hear your opening remarks.

represent Jews. You see that in the state of Israel, symbols which are religious and with immigration policy, which makes it allows the diaspora Jews like myself to come to Israel and become a citizen on stay one and makes it virtually impossible for a Palestinian to immigrate to Israel and become a citizen. Now I am a Zionist because as a Jew, I believe in the importance of estate

that has a special responsibility to Jews. But I also think that there are many, many examples of people who do not support that Jewish privilege in the state of Israel who are not anti Semite. So, for instance, there is a component of the Jewish world that opposes Zionism. Doesn't get necessarily that much attention. But the PSAT Marcus it, um, for instance, who are the largest Pacific group in the

world they have meetings in in football. Stadiums that are larger than the A pack national convention are anti Zionist because of their traditional reading of Jewish texts. Jewish Voice for Peace on the Left as a Jewish organization that believes that its liberal democratic values our intention with the idea of a state that privileges Jews even inside Israel proper, privileges them over Palestinians. It's to that Most Jews around the world are Zionists. But that wasn't always the case.

And there still is a robust debate about Zionism. Probably if you look at younger American Jews today, you would find that there's an even larger number of people who have significant questions about the idea of Zionism, either because traditional re Jewish religious texts say that it's incompatible with Jewish religious law or because it violates their liberal democratic values. In either case is those people is just simply not anti Semites.

Secondly, you have almost all Palestinians are anti Zionists again because they don't support the idea off a state that privileges Jews over Palestinians now some of their anti Zionism is absolutely Semitic if you look at the Islamic kind of domination ist ideology of Hamas. But there are many other Palestinians who say very openly and simply that they want Israel to not be a Jewish state, but to be a state for all its citizens in which everyone

lives under the same law. There were a number of Palestinian members of the Knesset who introduced ah, what's called a basic law in Israel last year, saying simply this. They should not be a state built on principles of privilege for any group. It should be a liberal democracy with equal law provided to everybody. Now it's true that there are many ethnically based states around the world. But we do not, as a general principle, have the idea that every nation that wants its own

state should have won the Kurds. Don't the Catalans Don't the Basques don't the Quebecers don't I don't think we would say that people who oppose a Kurdish state are anti Semitic, and in fact, there are states that were built on ethnic or racial privilege that have been dismantled, right? So I do not consider Israel on apartheid state. I think the way that a partisan Africa privileged whites over blacks was much more extreme than the way that Israel

privileges Jews over non Jews. But when that was dismantled and the project of national self determination for offer Connors was ended and Israel became a state for all its citizens, that wasn't anti Afrikaner bigotry. And if you say that all Palestinians who are anti Zionists are anti Semites, even those who say that all they want is one state in which Jews and Palestinians live under unequal law. Then,

in fact, you are essentially delegitimizing all Palestinian politics. You're equating Palestinian politics with bigotry, and I think that's very destructive for our appreciation of Palestinian human dignity and, I think undermines the quest for peace.

disagree with the politics of the state of Israel. You can even be anti Zionist and still not be anti Semitic. Hence your against the motion, be it resolved. Anti Zionism is anti Semitism. Now let's move on to our rebuttals breath. Steven, I'm gonna pass the microphone back to you to respond to a few. The key things that Peter said that are at the top of your mind. Well, I know

this debate is being heard. And obviously, in Canada and in the United States and in both countries, the idea of a state privileging a particular nation that is, to say, a particular culture. Ethnicity, religion, language and so on might seem a little strange to our traditions simply because the United States was not founded as a nation state.

But you or many listeners might be surprised to learn that around the world, all kinds of states, including states that we consider upstanding members of the liberal Democratic order do in fact offer certain kinds of privileges to a given nation that are not offered to others. Let me give you a neg. Zampa Ll Denmark, unlike the United States, has an official language. Danish. You'll be surprised to learn Germany for many years. I don't know if it's the

current policy, but it certainly was the policy. For decades Postwar, Germany offered expedited citizenship to German nationals who had been living in what became the Soviet Union for not decades. But in fact, for centuries they offered citizenship based on a kn ancestral claim of nationality and ethnicity. So the idea that Zionism, that Jewish Sinus like the Danes, like the Germans like many other nation states offer certain kind of privileges to the dominant ethnic or religious group is

not a very strange idea. It's certainly not an outrageous idea. I don't hear many people calling for the elimination of Germany, much less the elimination of Denmark. Now, a second point that Peter raises. You can always find the odd exception, like he mentioned the Satmar Hasidim, who are not Zionists. I'm perfectly happy to concede that there are these rare exceptions as there are when it comes to any prejudice.

But that does not mean that we should overlook the fact that if you were to draw a Venn diagram and map anti Zionism over anti Semitism, the overlap would be absolutely astonishing. So Peter is trying to point to a handful of exceptions and say this disproves the rule.

I'm not sure that that's it. All. The case, the third point and maybe into some listeners of the most powerful point is to say well, there are a lot of Palestinians who don't want a state of Israel who want the destruction of the state of Israel, or at least one it substituted with with with a single state now for the last 25 for however many years, well intended people and this includes myself have been working and have been hoping for a two state solution precisely

because Zionism is so central to Jewish identity. So when there are Palestinians who say we want the destruction of the state of Israel rather than the creation of an independent Palestinian state, they are in fact participating in that anti Semitism, and it should be no surprise, and I'm sorry to say this, but anti Semitism not just of the postmodern 21st century anti Zionist variety but of the old fashioned 19 century kind is alive and well on

Palestinian television, in Palestinian mosques and in Palestinian society. That's a reality that a lot of supporters of Palestinian statehood want to look away from. But if anyone is being honest about Palestinian politics, they have to acknowledge that there is far too much rank old fashioned anti Semitism inhabiting of Palestinian politics, Palestinian discourse. Thanks, Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart. Let's get your response to what you've heard from breakfast. Now I want to

I think of someone like Viktor Orban in Hungary, for instance, of the far right leaders in much of Europe and to some degree, even Donald Trump, who has a much longer history of peddling anti Semitic stereotypes than Ilhan Omar, are very Zionist IQ. In fact, it's not intellectually inconsistent. If you like the Polish leaders of the 19 thirties who were anti Semitic. If you don't want Jews in your country, you might be quite happy about the idea

that they would have a country of their own. And what we know about polling in the United States suggest that the Venn diagram actually may not really overlap nearly as much as Brett says, because when the Anti Defamation League did a study and they asked people to measure their anti Semitism, they ask questions like to Jews have too much power. Do they only look out for themselves? They found that the most anti Semitic people in the

United States were older and without college degrees. And yet, when people study Israel sentiment, hostility to Israel differences, the Pew Research Center they find that the people who have the most hostility to Israel tend to be young and highly educated. So actually, the Venn diagram doesn't necessarily overlap nearly as much. I think his bread is suggesting it

is certainly true. Bread is absolutely right. There are lots of countries in the world that have crosses or crescents on their flags and that have some form of preferential immigration policy. Israel is at an extreme in the sense that even though Britain has across on its flag, Britain has had a Jewish prime minister. Where is very difficult to imagine the state of Israel having, let's say, a

Palestinian prime minister? But I think the critical point for our debate is that if you were a Brit who wanted to take that cross off the flag or a German to use Brett's example, who didn't want Germany to have on immigration policy that privileged Germans over another group, you might be right. You might be wrong. You wouldn't be in a bigot for taking those used. This would be on argument about ethnic versus civic nationalism, which is an argument that takes place in all different parts of

the world. There is Palestinian anti Semitism. Bread is entirely right about that. But when he used the word destruction of the state of Israel, I think what he's conflating is the notion that there are that some have, like Islamic Jihad, for instance, of a violent war. T destroy Israel and kill Jews, and another group of Palestinians who have supporters around the world who want to replace Zionism, which is an ethnic nationalism with a civic nationalism that

they believe would treat all people equally. There are very good critiques of this. I am a supporter of the two state solution, but I just don't think it makes. I think it defies logic to say that someone who wants people to live equally in one state is there

Jordan Peterson's debate on political correctness. All these debates Frito, Listen, watch and read at monk debates dot com. So, Brett, what's the rebuttal? That this discussion around anti Zionism and labeling people is anti Zionists is cutting off the kind of legitimate, necessary, sometimes difficult conversations that necessitate that are the basis of sustaining some hope for a

two state solution? You know, just recently in the United States, we've had a NAR Gye mint between left and right over some horrendous comments that the president made with respect to four minority Congress women in which he said that they should quote, go back to the countries that are supposedly their countries of origin. And obviously, and importantly, Omar has a history of launching vicious anti Semitic screens.

I mean, to me, this is a nakedly bigoted and frankly racist comment, and I don't need I don't need anyone to tell me otherwise, but I found it interesting to listen to some conservative commentators either duck the question of the statements, bigotry and racism altogether, or actually engage in this kind of fine grained, legalistic parsing as to whether it was racist or merely xenophobic.

We live in an age when we not only see and hear, but if you don't mind my saying when we smell, when we get that whiff of racist bigotry, we call it out. And people on the left people who typically are on Peter Side of the debate have been very vocal in doing so. And I, of course, have have joined them in that as a as a

so called never trump conservative. But I find amazing is that when we come to a different kind of bigotry, which is the bigotry against Jews that all of a sudden, my friends who are so attuned to micro aggressions into racist dog whistles start to sound a little bit like the Mitch McConnells of the world and trying to carefully parse exactly what the language was that was used and to make excuses for people who are engaging in just the kinds of stereotypes and tropes and language that those

of us who understand anti Semitism are unfortunately all too familiar with. And I would wish that someone like Peter, who is so honorably thoughtful when it comes to calling out racism when he sees it and not allowing Racists toe hide behind carefully parsed language, would be equally vocal when it comes to not insisting on these exquisitely fine grain distinctions between anti Zionism and anti Semitism. I want to make a final point, which is this. We are living in an era

of resurgent anti Semitism, and this is not. This is not a question of anti Semitism or anti Zionism. When a program nearly happens in a synagogue in Paris, when protesters in Germany call for Jews to go, Palestinian protesters or Arab protesters in Germany call for choose to go to the to the gas. When schools throughout Europe, Jewish schools are behind armed guards and when a synagogue in Pittsburgh and another synagogue in San Diego is victimized by

anti Semitic, violent, murderous hatred. We're living in a certain Europe, and that's an era in which we've learned that not just in Europe but also here in North America. Jews aren't entirely safe, the one place where Jews actually can defend themselves and have the sovereign and legal means to do so is in the state of Israel, and it behooves anyone with a sense of the long and violent history of anti Semitism

toe understand that. That's why those of us who have that sense are so careful to not only denounce anti Semitism when we see it, but to understand that the long term security of the Jewish people requires the safety and health of the state of Israel and when people sneakily make claims that they are for the Jews but against Israel, that's something that we can't just pretend is theoretically sound because we know the consequences that too often follow from it. Thank you, Brad Peter.

That's the point that I've thought about also in the context of this debate, I mean, why isn't it fair to take a harder line on anti Zionism to draw clear, sharper distinctions? Because we are seeing this wave of rising anti Semitism, and how can the to not be in some way intertwined and linked and feeding off one another?

anti Zionists cannot be anti Semites. You know, Brett might not like the folks in Jewish for his for peace, but they have 15,000 members, which is almost as big as some of the right wing Jewish organizations, and they

genuinely believe and again they come out of that. There's a long tradition going back to the book and a tradition of anti Zionist Jews not because they don't care about Jewish welfare, but because they don't believe that ethnic nationalism is the best way to provide for Jewish security. And the problem is that anti Semitism is something very frightening and very disturbing and is coming from both the left and the right. But it is not fair to

make Palestinians pay. The price for that is if to suggest that because Jews are frightened because of our history and frightened now that therefore we have no concern about the rights of Palestinians that they write. Palestinians also have basic rights and to deny Palestinians their basic rights is

also ah form of bigotry. I always find it odd that so many of the same people who say that it is bigoted to depose a Jewish state seem not to find it bigoted at all to oppose a Palestinian state, right? Many members of Congress oppose a Palestinian state. Are they bigots, too?

that seeks to delegitimize and in some cases, demonize. When you have students on campus dealing with things like Israel apartheid weeks, that makes them fearful of actually attending campus events because of their religion in Canada. We have to recognize that there are things that aren't acceptable, not because of foreign policy concerns, but because of Canadian values. It's not right to discriminate or to make someone feel unsafe on campus because of

their religion. And unfortunately, the BDS movement is often linked to those kinds of friends. Peter Beinhart first to you. Do you agree with people like Justin Trudeau? Is the BDs movement anti Semitic?

But there's nothing inherently anti Semitic in that view, unless you believe that it is bigoted to oppose Jewish state in which I don't believe others would say it's bigoted because they're singling out Israel. The problem with that argument is that the BDS movement emerges from Palestinian civil society. It was a Palestinian call for a boycott modeled on the call by Black by the A, M, C and

others in black South Africa. People around the world are responding to that call Most of those people, in my experience, who supported the BDS movement. They're responding to a particular boycott call from the Palestinians, and it is not discriminatory to respond to one particular groups of people's call for a boycott. I think if there were a similar movement that emerged from Tibet or Saudi Arabia, you would see that many of those same people, including myself, would be very sympathetic to

vacation in India. Despite questions about India's position in Kashmir, the same people who wouldn't think twice about visiting Istanbul have alighted on the one state that they wish to boycott and divest from, which just by some weird coincidence, happens to be the Jewish state and the origins. I'm sorry to say, but the origins of the BDS movement

do not lie in the American civil rights movement. The origins of the BDs movement lie in the longstanding Arab boycott of the state of Israel, which began even before Israel came into existence, began in the early 19 forties. That partakes of the kind of odious bigotry that, of course, was ubiquitous in Nazi Germany when Jewish businesses were being boycotted for obvious and obviously anti Semitic reasons back then.

So if you're gonna tell me that you oppose Israeli policy in the West Bank and therefore you're gonna boycott Israel just as you are boycotting Chinese goods, Justus, you are boycotting Russian goods and so forth and so on. Then I'm happy to make an exception for you and to say that at least you're applying your principles universally.

But when you have a movement that is singularly focused on boycotting the state, that happens to be the Jewish one in a way that you're not applying that same principle equally, then that's a discriminatory and anti Semitic practice, and we should listen. People who are the victims of bigotry, whether they are black, whether they are gay or whether they are Jews, do not have the option to be idiots. They do not have the option to say, Well, let's constantly give those

who are persecuting us the benefit of the doubt. On the contrary, they have an obligation not only to stand up for themselves, but they have an obligation to call out bigotry as they see it. And at least put the onus on the BDs er's or on the homophobes or on the white nationalist to say, Tell us exactly why it is that we shouldn't call out your bigotry. If you can provide a convincing explanation, then we might

be willing to listen to you. But to preemptively simply say, Well, the BDS movement says it's not anti Semitic, and therefore we're going toe to accept that explanation I think is worse than foolish. It's naive, and it's an invitation for even more insidious kinds of bigotry. Look,

But it was created by Palestinians because they're responding to their own basic oppression. Anyone who's spent one day in the West Bank with Palestinians will see the magnitude of that of that oppression, people who live without their whole lives without basic rights. I mean the notion that you are a bigot if you focus on one particular unjust policy you want oppose because you don't oppose all in the world with the same vigor, I just think belies reality.

In the 19 seventies, the organized American Jewish community boycotted the Bolshoi Ballet because Soviets were not allowing Giusto leave the Soviet Union. And I think it was a very proud moment in American Jewish history. The Sylvian was not the worst regime in the world. At that point, there was the Camaro Rouge. There was a D Amine. So someone have said, Ah, this is bigotry. You're not equally

focused on what's happening in Cambodia. In Uganda, the point was, this was a Jewish movement that was based on trying to secure rights for Jews. People have the right to try to gain liberation and for themselves. That's what the BDS movement, which comes out of Palestinian society is, and therefore I just don't think it makes sense to say that it is bigoted because those people are not equally focused on the 1,000,000 other forms of oppression that exists in the

Peter saying question to you. Are you set in the thes beliefs or has Brett unsettled something that you've been thinking about in terms of this

the time that I spent with Palestinian anti Zionist. I just cannot call people in good conscience anti Semites when I know from personal experience that they're not. And they want the same things for their Children that I want for myself, is their anti Semitism among anti Zionism, The BDS movement? Yes, I've had Palestinians say to me that they've heard and they've heard anti Semitic things in BDs movement meetings that does exist. That is something that's very worrying.

But it's also important for us to remember that some of the most prominent and I think dangerous anti Semites in the world today are actually supporters of the state of Israel as well.

I have my differences with those Palestinian members of the Knesset, but I simply don't see how one can call that bigotry. And this has very important real world implications because the definition of anti Zionism as anti Semitism which was almost adopted,

for instance by the University of California system. If you say anti Zionism is anti Semitism on and should be bigotry that therefore you know, deserves penalties when it's experienced on college campuses, you're basically saying that groups like Students for Justice in Palestine, Theo entire Palestinian political movement basically is a form of bigotry and therefore doesn't necessarily have the right basic rights to free speech. I think that's

deeply dangerous and dehumanizing. It's important to remember that we not only live in a time of rising anti Semitism, we also live in a time of rising Islamophobia, and we live in an age where bigotry against Palestinians is, in a way so pervasive that we don't even have a name for which is to say that people can routinely suggest that Palestinians should live their entire lives under military law without basic rights. And we don't even think about that. It's a form of bigotry. So if we're

concerned about bigotry, wanna fight all forms of bigotry? I think inflating anti Zionism anti Semitism opens the door to a very profound bigotry against Palestinians, which says they don't have the right to live to express political views that are based on their own experience and their desire for equality. And I think that's a mistake.

And so to get behind on ideology that is inimical to the way in which the overwhelming majority of Jews see themselves and see their national and cultural and religious aspirations, and to argue for the elimination of the one state in the world that provides every Jew around the world with some assurance that there are means for its own self defense strikes me as inherently anti Semitic. Anyone who has a sense of moral decency

cares for the rights of all embattled minorities. And I look forward to the day in which Palestinian leaders ceased to embrace groups like Hamas, which are anti Semitic and call for Israel's destruction and embrace the politics that leads to a state in which all Palestinians have democratic representation and liberal Democratic rights. While we wait for that to happen, we should be avid Zionists because to wish for the opposite is effectively leaving the Jewish people to resort to

the kindness of strangers. And anyone who knows anything about Jewish history knows that that provides no long term security at all. Well, Bret Stephens, Peter Beinhart Thank you for a civil substantive conversation on a difficult, contested issue. I think we've moved the conversation forward, and it's thanks to your thoughtfulness and your ability to engage with each other much, much appreciated. Thank you thank you all the best. Thanks a lot.

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