You do podcasts. Peter! Parkrun. We'll do your ISA. With the Vanguard-managed ISA, our experts will take care of things for you. What will you do instead? When investing, your capital is at risk. Tax rules apply. Search Vanguard now. Welcome to the Mr. Beacon podcast. We've got a great guest this week, Giampaolo Marino. who is SVP for Business Development and Strategy at Energis. Really important company, interesting company in the ambient Internet of Things.
A lot of people counted them out. They were one of the first companies to get into this wireless power. And they're public. And they spend a lot of time and money on figuring out... Where the gold is buried, what use cases we're going to scale. And I think there was a lot of focus in the early days on enabling chips that enabled power in the home for... devices that wouldn't be plugged in and all of that's evolved in some of the use cases that they aimed at, but a lot of them in other areas.
But I came across them fairly early in Williott's history and got introduced to them by one of the founders as an interesting technology company. This was round about the time that we were... figuring out how to launch a kit, a starter kit for Williott. That was a personal project of mine, I guess. I mean, there were a lot of people involved, but it's something that I really believed in.
Energis created a product for that kit. And we sold hundreds of them to many different companies that wanted to get their hands onto ambient IoT. And so that initial Energis 1Watt device At the time, it was state of the art and it allowed people to play with those tags in their homes, in their businesses and get to know the technology. For all sorts of reasons, which we won't go into now, those kits ended up not really scaling in the way that I wanted to. And Williott ended up...
Moving on to a different strategy, kind of a rifle shot strategy of focusing on the very biggest companies and going after them. But Energis cut its teeth. that and they've now emerged as being this amazing supplier of the most serious infrastructure for ambient iot deployments and they made a product that was codenamed condor which is basically the most powerful bridge that you can buy
to energize tags. So I'm going to talk to Jim Palo about that. It has been a very interesting week. Last week was my first week outside of Williott. As you can tell, the podcast's continuing. And for now, at least, William's sponsoring it, which I'm grateful for. So we continue and I've been focusing on setting up the new company, doing the paperwork to incorporate, finding the right lawyer to work with.
As the company proceeds, who will file the paperwork and collaborating and recruiting the founders. We've got an amazing founding team who I can't name and talk about. Really makes me very happy to get to work with people that are just people that I admire and respect and are really, really good. And we've been talking to the early investors. And good conversations, conversations about the strategy, what we're trying to do with ambi.ai, A-M-B, ambient, and then AI.ai.
is really ambitious. And it's the downstream work that Williott really can't focus on because they have these huge projects upstream in the DCs, the back of the store. And what I really wanted to do was start working on the downstream work in the home, in stores, in restaurants, and find a way of bringing people. places and things together using this next generation browser for the physical world. What does a browser for the physical world look like? Well, it has AI bolted into it.
so that you can literally talk to products and have a conversation with an assistant that knows you. not just from what you've said, but what you have done, where you've been, where you've spent your time, the products that you've used. And that's a really privileged position. And it's going to take a lot to get it right. It's going to require pragmatic privacy, privacy control, and access control. There's going to be a lot of data. And so inevitably, this story gets...
kind of big and complicated. And the opportunity is massive. It's huge. You know, what can you do in a world where everything around you has a voice and is a sensor and is connected? What's the network that connects that? And what's the app that uses the network? And so the new company is focused on building...
This service that will link things with their digital identity and places with all of the digital services that that place offers. And we'll have an app that uses that network. It'll be open to others. And that app will hopefully be delightful and be the best sommelier tour guide, personal assistant you've ever had. Helps you find the car keys, the power tool that you lost and tells you the story behind the products that you're thinking of.
of consuming, whether it's a bottle of wine in a restaurant or just the secret to jumping the line and getting your order in if you're stuck in a cafe or waiting for service in a food truck. So that's the idea. To cap all of that off, the Ambient IoT Alliance announced. So this is something that's been worked on for many months by a lot of people. Intel and Qualcomm and Wiliot at Mossack, Vision Group, Infineon and PepsiCo.
And we managed to get all of the legal teams, all of the stakeholders to agree on a message, on a website. And I got the privilege of being the spokesperson, even though I don't work at Williott anymore or any of the other companies, then I'm volunteering my time and it's a privilege to get to speak to some amazing journalists. So we got a...
Got coverage in Wired magazine, which was awesome. And I think it speaks to the significance of this ambient work that that group is doing around harmonizing the standards, sharing best practice. providing cues and clues based on all of their experience about the use cases that will be the ones that have the most impact and scale.
Check out the coverage for the Ambient IoT Alliance. There's a really nice article in RFID Journal Live. There's that Wired article and IoT Insider, many other publications. So that's it from me. Over to my... conversation with gian palo as always don't forget the bit at the end we talk a bit about his italian heritage and his music choices and uh and the latest of what's happening with energis so enjoy it
The Mr. Beacon Ambient IoT podcast is sponsored by Williot, bringing intelligence to every single thing. Jim Paolo, welcome to the Mr. Beacon podcast. It's wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you so much, Steve. Thank you for inviting me. My pleasure. So in the podcast, we cover a really broad range of subjects, but Ambient IoT is the focus. And Energis is a fascinating company.
And I'd love to hear the latest from you. In the relatively early days of Williott, we had this idea of putting a starter kit together, which is one of those. It's a more controversial part of our company's history, but I was a big fan of it. But I think it was maybe a little early, but it was very popular. And I remember that one of our co-founders, Yaron, introduced me to Cesar, who was the CEO at the time. And you guys basically built a device.
for Wiliot and for that kit. And in fact, I've got one here. I do have some 3D printed versions of this, but I thought it was a beautiful device and it was kind of really the first one of its kind. because it was like a sub gigahertz and a 2.4 gigahertz device. So it had all the power of the sub gigahertz and so forth. You know, my relationship with your company was forged then. I think that was before your time. You joined after that and now you're...
Basically running strategy, sales, marketing, and so forth. So a lot's happened. Do you want to, I've kind of rambled around an explanation of what part of what your company does. If you're in a meeting and you're having to explain to people from scratch what Energist does, what do you typically say? How do you introduce the company?
Interesting. Well, it's a great question. And I always try to simplify the concept of our technology so it's easier for everyone to understand. So the analogy that I always like to use is, well, think of when we had... cable internet right you know we had you know our cable internet plugged into our computer
And so that gave us access to the internet. Then from cable internet, we went to Wi-Fi, where now we have Wi-Fi everywhere, internet everywhere, and we can pick that Wi-Fi signal and do our browsing.
in essence at energies we're doing the same thing with power we're really transforming cable power to basically power everywhere and think as you're basically uh uh running into entering into a room where your sensors you know where Your IoT nodes and all sorts of IoT devices now are getting powered by this technology without the need of a battery.
And also without the need of any source of human intervention, because again, if you don't have batteries, now you don't need anyone to maintain those batteries. So in essence, this is what we do at Energes. It's really how do we push power? at a distance and how we get to energize large distances, you know, large areas and power, obviously, and connect technology like in the likes of Elliot, for instance.
And you work with Williott, but you also work with other companies as well, right? Yes. So we absolutely work with Williott. For us, when you look at Williott, we call it the perfect receiver because the sensitivity of Williott, it's so high. The power is so low that we're able to really get... fantastic ranges of coverage with the Willier technology. So we basically propagate power over 900 megahertz.
will yet harvest over 900 megahertz and then you know we communicate over you know 2.4 gigahertz bluetooth channel right but will yet uh is on is not only the only technology that we're focusing we're also focusing on you know, this new category of IoT node and sensors that today are being powered or are communicating off of Bluetooth. And the goal for Energes is, well, how do I get to reduce?
or eliminate the batteries out of the sensors so that I can give customers an opportunity to reduce cost, perhaps to reduce the area of the sensors, the surface areas of the sensors, because now you're eliminating the battery. Further, also reducing or eliminating cost on maintaining those sensors because now there's no more barriers. And so that is really an area that Energes has been focusing on. And it's an area that we're very, very excited about it.
Because also when you think about, you know, sensors, you know, whether those are temperature sensors or humidity sensor, for instance, light spectrum sensors for vertical farming, right? CO2 sensor, for instance, you know, for smart building. It's an area that I think it's going to go through tremendous opportunity and tremendous growth. And we are there to eliminate all sorts of frictions out of this area so that we can really propel the growth further very rapidly. Very good.
In a little bit, I want to talk about some of the way the product range has evolved and what we call Condor product. I don't know whether we're allowed to call it, but basically it's kind of the big guy in the lineup, which we're seeing really do very well. Very well. But before we get to there, let's just spend a bit more time on the bigger picture and these different devices that you work with. Can you... You know, if you were to give an analysis of this IoT...
business, where would you say it is if you're having a board meeting and you're describing the pros and cons of the different segments within IoT? Because you have one device, but it's used... by these different kinds of devices. I'm really intrigued by that vertical farming light sensor thing that you described. What are the kind of, if you were to break up the market and look at, well, this is the size and this is the growth and here's the value.
What are the pros and cons of the different segments? And obviously, Williart's ambient IoT tags is one of those. So I'm kind of interested in how you look at these from the outside. Yeah, that's a great question, Steve. So typically today as energists, we like to break the market into three specific focus segments, right? The first one is retail IoT.
And within retail IoT, obviously, you have, you know, supply chain, you have cold chain, you know, you have a track and trace. I mean, there's obviously different applications that are driving in retail IoT. Then the second segment is TNN, transportation and logistics, which is another segment that we're focusing on today as energies. And then the third segment is manufacturing because manufacturing, there is a side of manufacturing that...
It's really growing and is in need of a lot more sensors to really provide better efficiencies in the process and also to make the right decision in terms of, hey, if I have a cloud, then I have a bunch of sensors. How can I basically make the right decision in terms of, for instance, preventance and maintenance? So those are the three segments that we are really focusing today. And so when I look at this segment where we are, when I look at the adoption curve, right? I mean, because again.
ambientality, you know, will you technology, battery-less sensors, it's the element that we're trying to introduce in every single market. And so when I look at those markets and when I look at the adoption curve, I think we are right there crossing the chasm. We are basically getting into the innovation phase where now we are seeing a bunch of very innovative customers, large customers that are basically adopting the technology.
And they're developing use cases around the technology that is going to benefit their operation. And so today we are seeing that. And so as we cross the chasm, I believe that the rate of adoption... of these use cases and the amount of customers that are going to be jumping in is going to grow exponentially. And so we're very excited about that. And when I look at the market, again, I always like to mention ambient IoT.
The growth of ambient IoT is tremendous. I mean, we are seeing basically the market going from hundreds of millions into the trillions. And that growth is going to be over the next three to five years. And so, you know, we want to be part of that. You know, we are positioning ourselves, energy is positioning ourselves as the network of choice within that infrastructure, within the ambient IoT infrastructure that can provide, you know, seamless.
data communication, you know, from will you talk from a battery-less sensors all the way into the cloud. and enable customers in the cloud to do the right level of computation, to receive the elaborate information that will make their processes better and more efficient. Very good. And, you know, what are the biggest problems that you see being driving adoption fastest? That's always kind of the, it's the need that will drive the investment.
What are you hearing? What I have experienced, Steve, is as you look at a specific solution and I call an end-to-end solution, right? You know, from, let's say from a, from will you pixel tag or from a sensor all the way to the cloud. I think the biggest challenge is to reduce the number of players into that solution so that now you have a very well-controlled end-to-end solution. You have a very well-controlled distribution of power data into the cloud.
reduction of players, I think, also brings more confidence to the end customers that this is a solution that is robust, is very well defined. doesn't have five or six different players into the equation. And so they feel comfortable adopting it because the value is tangible. I mean, you have been in the same position as I had. The value of the technology, it's very tangible.
I would say that the worry is into the implementation of the technology into an existing infrastructure, right? It is already there. And so the worry is like, well, I don't want to disrupt what I have. I want to make sure that this technology, this infrastructure can be seamless into this overall infrastructure that I had created and can provide, obviously, additional use cases.
I think we, together with Williot and Energies, we have been demonstrating that we are working very well together. I think as you have seen at the progress of our products into the market and also what we are going to be offering moving forward. has an aim to reduce the number of components.
It has an aim to reduce the number of players and also has a very much focus to reduce the cost of ownership of the infrastructure for customers. So it's easy for them to deploy and puts them in a better position of confidence to go and use a technology. that today might be a new technology. And do you have something specific in mind in terms of that consolidation of functionality so that you can simplify things? When I look at how our network topology looks like, I'll give you an example.
I always like to use Williott because he's a player, he's a customer, he's a partner that we work with very closely. But, you know, you have the Williott pixel tag and then, you know, you have the energies power bridge network topology. Then you have gateways and then you have ways, you know, to stay. to send data into the cloud, whether that is Williot's cloud or whether that is the customer cloud, right? So, okay, fine. Pixel.
which is there because it's a digital trigger that you cannot get rid of. But then, you know, you have gateways and you have power bridges or, you know, energy transmitters. Well, can I combine now gateways and bridges together?
So that now I provide a little bit of a seamless and cost-effective network infrastructure for my customers, where they don't have to worry about, okay, dedicated gateway or dedicated power bridge that might be from two different sources. And hopefully that gives you an idea of where we're going. Okay. Yeah, that's a good hint. And just for people that aren't in the know on what the difference is between the gateways and the bridges, the bridge is kind of the first stepping stone.
The signal comes from the tag. The bridge energizes the tag. It reads the tag. And then it relays a stronger Bluetooth kind of aggregate of packets up to the gateway, which goes from Bluetooth to internet protocol. So it basically goes over the internet. And you're looking at ways of simplifying that. We'll do your ISA. With the Vanguard-managed ISA, our experts will take care of things for you. What will you do instead?
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Indeed is all you need. Well, let's look at the products range as it stands. So I waived that small device, the small round device that we... included in the starter kits way back when those were a thing. They aren't a thing anymore. The people have to do kind of a pilot and it's much more of a... high-touch process, for us at least, when Williott goes to market. I think you guys have other approaches. But tell us a bit more about the new products and what is it?
What is it that you've done to really optimize that bridge product, something that can deliver good power and do a good job of reading the tags? Certainly. So, yes, Steve, you know, we go back to, you know, the round one watt, we call it power bridge device, which I think was a great device to introduce the technology, you know, to introduce, you know, to enable customers to test, you know, the technology on a POC level.
on a small scales level. But, you know, that was basically it. So, you know, as we had progressed with Williott, you know, to engage with bigger and larger customers, we felt the need to really introduce. to the market, an enterprise-grade product that will really provide the level of coverage, the power level.
you know, the data communication infrastructure that was needed at a large scale. And as a matter of fact, we were able to introduce to market a few quarters back, we call it the PowerBridge Pro. which is this device right here. Okay. You can see it. Okay. So in essence, what this device is, is a 2-watt conducted 8-watt EIRP device. So this is the highest power.
device available in the market right now. And it's capable of delivering 8W, okay? 8W of EIRP power. It's an enterprise-grade product device. It has an IP67-rated certification. It could be used for indoor and outdoor use. So IP67, that basically means you can subject it to rain and snow and it'll be fine.
It will be subject to rain and storm water. It will be absolutely fine. As a matter of fact, when we qualify this product, we had it underwater for about two months. Oh my goodness. Okay. And it still performed very well. It's a little bit of a change of game because, again, eight watts of power compared to the one watt, the original one watt. I mean, you're talking about eight times power really gives that level of visibility.
that customers are looking for. And so we're able to energize will you pixel tags, even the one that are... you know, hidden maybe, you know, when they are applying, you know, to certain assets, we're ready to read those, you know, very, very quickly. We are able to get a very fast response.
Right. We always like to say we turn the light on as soon as, you know, the two watt, you know, the Powerbeach Pro goes on. And so, you know, this is really a game changer for a lot of our customers because now, you know, they're starting to see level of visibility in the 97, 98. 99%. And this is really what we need to be together, Energes and Williott, to really win customers' confidence into the technology, but also...
you know, win the confidence that this technology is a game changer. So how do you pack that amount of power in there legally? I mean, because there are limits to what you're allowed to broadcast, right? Yes. No, it's a great question, Steve. I think we have been able to really do these at Energis because we are not just a system company. We are also a semiconductor company. So we develop our own controllers. We develop our own PAs.
We develop our own semiconductor components, and that gives us great flexibility. to when we go and look for regulatory approval, for instance, in the United States, in Europe and other countries where this technology could be applied. So, you know, the Energous Power Pro has full FCC certification in the United States. It's safe to use. And now we're basically going for certification in other adjacent countries where we believe there's a lot of opportunities. But going back to your question.
I think the fact that we control our semiconductor gives us a lot of flexibility on how to meet sometimes stringent requirements that are coming from different country regulation when it comes down to safety. Yeah, I don't want to get too much into the weeds, but you talked about the fact that you design your own power amplifiers and your own chip technology. But I think part of what makes these devices good is the antenna design, right? It's about having...
an antenna that isn't just pushing out the power, but it allows you to have flexibility in terms of the tag orientation and so forth. How do you do that? Yeah, no, this is a great question, Steve. Yes, we also have an antenna team at Energies that has been with the company for the last 10 years. So we had really antenna experts in this field of power delivery and power distribution. And so...
You know, this device right here actually has an antenna topology that is very different from the Wabwab. It's really what is giving us the higher level of performance. And again, that core competence comes from our antenna team, comes from years of experience that we have. in power transfer, distribution of power transfer. Okay, very good. Maybe any other updates you want to give on the company? I see they are offering shares.
to end users. I didn't quite understand that. So maybe you can kind of explain a little bit about that on the corporate front. Yeah, so we, as a company, we're looking at different ways, you know, to raise capital. And Mallory Burak, our CEO, you know, she has a tremendous experience in microcap company in the likes of energies. So we are undertaking a rate.
offering right now, which gives basically institutional investors an opportunity to really buy shares, you know, for energies and, you know, believing what the company is doing. I really believe also in the sustainability aspect of the company, which I think also along with Williot, we want to eliminate batteries because batteries are not only toxic for the environment, batteries are also a limiting factor for IoT to really get into the...
trillions of device. So, yeah, we are undertaking this reg offering, reggae offering, and we're super excited about it. You know, we're telling our story. We're, you know, we're telling institutional, well, we're telling basically sort of retail investor, not institutional investor. retail investors people just like you and i you know what our story is and what our vision of energies is going to be over the next three to five years very good
All right, good. Anything else that we should cover? Any more news in the company? We've obviously spoken to Energis in the past, but I wanted to take this time to give people an update on where you're at. I think, you know, from a company standpoint, you know, we are looking at different elements of our solution. Again, you know, we love to work with Willet.
You know, it's been a tremendous journey, but the company is also looking at, like, as I mentioned before, maybe, you know, changing the game in sensors, right? In Bluetooth enables, you know, sensors. And so... We're looking at a complete end-to-end ecosystem solution where now you have sensors, where you have a cloud that is an energized cloud, where you have a dashboard, where you can provide...
information to customers that are relevant to their operation and hopefully help them improve things. Very good. One thing that I don't think I've mentioned to you is I'm actually leaving Wiliot today. Today's my last day. Wow. Are you... This is actually an interesting news that is catching me by surprise. Yeah, I'm leaving to start a company that's going to use the Williott platform. licensed some of the Williott IP. So it's not like I'm...
losing faith in this ecosystem that Energis and Williart and many other companies have been developing. It's actually that I see this Huge opportunity and the company's flagship product will be an app called Ambi, as in ambient AI. It'll be an intelligent assistant. And the platform that it uses will be called Living Web. And these are things that we've been working on at Williart and just couldn't focus on. Couldn't focus on because...
We've got these massive customers that your company's involved in doing work upstream. And so, you know, how do you do this downstream work that's closer to the consumer experience whilst not taking your eye off the ball upstream? And so this is my last day. So bittersweet. This is my last interview.
Not my last interview on the Mr. Beacon podcast, but the last interview whilst I'm at Williott. And so it's kind of a significant one for me. Anyway, I just thought I'd let that know because it might... come out in the rest of our discussions. And we can talk more offline. I know we're kind of recording, so you may need a little bit of time to process it.
Let's get back to you. Less about me, more about you. How did you end up working at Energis? So it's a great question. So prior to Energis, I was at a company called Analog Devices, obviously. a big semiconductor company, your ex-experience with Qualcomm. And I was driving for ADI. system solutions across the entire organization. So focusing on consumer application primarily, but also looking at IoT and really leveraging some of the best IP ADI had developed across the board.
To really build solution to go after consumer and IoT applications. So I got very familiar with IoT as some of the use cases of IoT. And, you know, my interest actually grew. quite a bit as I started to learn about Wiliot first since when I was at ADI. And I started to learn about ambient IoT, and I started to learn about some really interesting use cases that were going to form, in my opinion, around IoT. And I believe that they were going to be the drivers of all that.
Energes contacted me when I was still at AEI. They asked me whether or not I was interested in joining the organization to continue to focus the technology and the products on IoT and help the company pivot. from a technology that they had built for the last 10 years into a market that will really create the right product marketing for the company. And so I felt that...
having a little bit of knowledge of RF and wireless power, this could be quite an interesting play for Energis. And I felt that it was a good opportunity to really... Take a leap of faith and see, well, what can I do? How can I... you know, help pivot the company? How can I find the right market given my experience in IoT? So yeah, I decided to leave out my devices to join Energous and take on a big challenge.
And a big challenge. I'm sure you have seen the milestones and the progression that we've gone through over the last few years. But it's been an amazing experience so far because, you know, thanks to Williot also and thanks to the Williot technology and the focus of Williot, you know, we have been able to really carve out for Energis what we call the right product market fit.
which is ambientality. Yeah. Great to get that background. I want to make sure we continue the podcast tradition and ask you about music as we wrap up the show. And were you able to think of three songs that had meaning for you? Yeah. So I, you know, I obviously coming from Italy, for me, Italian music is very important. I love opera. Pavarotti for me, I grew up with Pavarotti. My dad was really in love with opera music. So I was exposed since the beginning to a lot of different Pavarotti songs.
You know, the three tenors, as you can imagine, Pavarotti, you know, Domingo. So for me, you know, I think one of the... the songs that I grew up with from Domenico Modugno, which is a little bit different from Pavarotti, I know. But I think Volare is such a great song and it's got such a great meaning, at least for me that I'm coming from Italy. That is a song that I love to listen to and it gives me inspiration.
It brings me back so many good memories of my upbringing in Italy and my family and my grandparents and my cousins. Because we used to sing that oftentimes during Sundays, family get-together. What does it mean, by the way? Volare is to fly. Volare is like how you can free yourself as a bird and fly high in the sky without being chained down by...
you know, any type of restrictions, right? So, you know. Whereabouts in Italy did you grow up? So I grew up in a city called Salerno, which is in a city off the Amalfi Coast on the south part of Italy, southwest side of Italy. Just to give you some reference, Salerno is about 50 kilometers south from Naples, about 250 kilometers south from Rome. The city is very well known for the Amalfi Coast. Yes. Places like Amalfi, Positano, or Sorrento, which are very well known.
And, yeah, so I've been fortunate because growing up as a little kid, I had the Amalpicos right in front of me. And it's always been a great place of vacation and memories, you know, with my family and friends. And do you go back? I go back. My family still lives in Italy. My mom, my sister, my extended family. So my wife and I and our daughter.
You know, we try to go back at least once or twice a year or as much as we can. Awesome. Yeah, I went on a holiday with my family to Italy. And, you know, sometimes in life you... collect these images, the memories. And I traveled with my youngest son, who's like... 20 at the time. And we had a nightmare flight in from the US. We don't have enough time on this podcast to describe all the things that went wrong.
But we arrived in Venice. And, you know, you get from Venice Airport to the Venice City via boat. And so we took this water taxi. And it was the most amazing experience. It was just the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. It was just stunning. And I'm like, I'm in a movie. This is like...
It was an amazing antidote, a very challenging journey. And when we made it, we made it down to Rome and did all the touristy things. So I have my Lego model of the Colosseum, which I can see that in the back. Yeah. Very good. Well, so what's song number two? Song number two is Con Te Partirò. With you, I will leave. I will go. I will depart from Andrea Bocelli. And, you know, this is a song that is very dear to me.
Because it brings me memory to when I left Italy for the United States to undertake my college journey, my undergrads and graduate studies. So it was a song that gave me... strength to really face the challenges ahead in a completely new country without my family, but at the same time also reminded me of where I was coming from. And so Andrea Bocelli, I love him. I mean, he's...
Great voice. And I think it's a testament and a statement of Italian music. Amazing. Con te partirò. All right. And then number three. Number three is All of Me from Joe Legend. It's our wedding song. So, you know, if, you know, I wouldn't have called this out. My wife should have been really mad. But no, this was a song that we played at our wedding. And, you know, it brings mad.
brings back great memories, you know, and then obviously the bond that there is between me and my wife. Fantastic choices. I really enjoyed hearing about it. Gianpaolo, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast. It's been great to have you. Thank you so much, Steve, for having me. So that was the conversation with GM Paolo, a great guy, works hard, super smart, super focused.
I'm rooting for the people at Energist. They've got a great product and I can see some really good things on the short-term horizon for them that will, I think, be very good for their business. Thank you for sticking with this podcast, listening to the end. You're an exceptional listener that's bucking the ADD trend or maybe like my friend Elizabeth. using this podcast as your way of getting to sleep. Whatever. It's still streaming hours and that contributes to...
to the momentum that we have with the podcast. And hopefully we can help people figure out how to make ambient IoT work for good. So until next time. Be safe, have fun, enjoy the journey. Our experts will take care of things for you. What will you do instead? When investing your capital is at risk, tax rules apply. Search Vanguard now.