Connected Packaging: Turning Every Product Into a Digital Media Channel

Traditionally brands lose a hundred percent of the visibility of who's using their product once it leaves the store, but recent data is showing that connected packaging in the form of QR codes and even NFC is is driving seven to ten times the level of engagement than typical digital channels.

So this is a compelling opportunity for a two way conversation between brands and their consumers, and we've got The Queen of Connected Packaging on the show this week, Jenny Stanley, who's been working in the field for the last decade and has recently uh published uh this book, Connected Packaging.

It's actually the second edition that's just come out. So you know it's good because there's a second edition. So Jenny runs Appetite Creative, and they're a brand that's been at the front line of this. And for those of us who spend a lot of our time thinking about technology, this is really where it's all come it all it all comes together. It's where the lessons are learned.

that teach us how to make the application of all of this next generation technology fruitful and worthwhile. I think you'll find it a good lesson. The Mr. Beacon. Create digital identities for physical objects and enhancing global Applications. Hãy subscribe cho kênh La La School Để không bỏ lỡ những video hấp dẫn some brands with a digital assistant using AI and the same. So Jenny, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you.

Thank you very much, Steve. Good to be here. I hope it's not sexist to say it, but I would say you are the queen of connected packaging. You run an agency that's been focused on it for best part of a decade. You have an annual survey. which I think you're just in the middle of, where you poll our ecosystem about it, you speak at the conferences. And you just put out the second edition of uh of of this book, uh, Connected Packaging. So

Congratulations on all of that. When you are at a party and someone says, what do you do? How do you explain what connected packaging is? Yeah, I got it. Or do you just try and change the subject? Well I I'm not gonna talk about that. I'm not sure that's my uh my uh party party trick talking about connected packaging, but no. So connected packaging, yeah, I mean for anybody who doesn't know what connected packaging is, it's basically uh the digital

communication channel of using the packaging or the product as the conduit between the brand and the consumer. And you know what's uh w tell us what's changing and why it's important. Oh so many so many reasons. So there's lots of different things that are coming down the line. Probably the one that again if you're at the party, um that that most people can be familiar with is the Sunrise project, which is the GS One, the global standard.

change where they are moving from barcodes to QR codes. Everybody knows what a barcode is. The idea is that actually the barcodes will be replaced. for many different reasons, but that's coming and the date or the year for that is twenty twenty seven, so obviously next year. So that's probably um the biggest change at the moment. The second one which less people know about, but

That's actually in forcement at the moment for a couple of different products. So batteries, detergents, those type of products at the moment need to carry a digital product passport and the weight obviously access all that information instead of putting it onto the product or putting it into the packaging.

yw'n ymwneud â'r QR code ac yw'n ymwneud â'r QR code ac yw'n yw'n ymwneud â'r cwllt yw'n ymwneud â'r cwllt yw'n ymwneud â'r cwllt yw'n ymwneud â'r cwllt yw'n ymwneud â'r cwllt yw'n ymwneud â'r cwllt and the ingredients or materials that are in that product. Again, that is a big change. It's a European regulation and there's uh different changes in in the US market as well. So there's two big things there. yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw

disposal of the materials. It gets then a little bit deeper and I would lose people if I was at a party talking about those But okay, so so you I I noticed you focused a lot on the sticks there rather than the carrots, uh which is, you know, you gotta change it because How are people gonna scan your product in the supermarket and uh Then there's the r you know, if you're making toys or furniture then you kinda gotta do it because uh if you wanna sell them in the EU then there's gonna be

mandates uh there and then there's all this uh sustainability legislation and so forth, which are all, you know, uh I th they're there for a reason, it's good. But I i if you think about all of your clients, uh do they come to you because of the stick or the carrot? And uh I'd be interested in uh what's actually driving the projects, what's driving people to

spend money. I I I I think we all have some optimism that regulation's gonna be something that just helps turbocharge a a market that's been uh I don't know, uh it's hard to tell, but it it doesn't seem like it's like massive at the moment, uh but it is happening. Uh so Why do people actually do it when they spend money with you? Yeah, they definitely uh probably th the the uh question led to the info day insta sticks as in and and we haven't talked about the carrots and of course

the whole opportunity there is is the is the ability uh to be able to understand your consumer better, to increase sales, to have engagement time, to have loyalty programmes and it's all that that marketing aspect. So

I think one of the things that is really nice actually is now these different things which are which are coming which are really only started being around or spoken about in the last, let's say, two to four years. And we've actually yw'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn

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And so that really brought it into the public eye because QR codes aren't a new thing. They're about fifty years old. So actually that then help push what we were already doing, but then that really kind of helped push it into something that, you know, even your granny knows what a QR code is, right?

That's true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, my my well my mother, who's a grandmother does, does she she knows what about QR cards and I think the fact that it's now integrated into the photo app on your phone, that that's that was a big one, wasn't it? Yna, yna, yna. Yna, yna, yna. Yna, yna, yna. Yna, yna, yna. Yna, yna, yna. Yna, yna, yna. Yna, yna, yna. Yna, yna, yna. Yna, yna, yna. Yna, yna, yna. Yna, yna, yna.

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It's about collecting first party data, it's learning who uh your consumer is, wh why they consume your product, when they consume your product, the time of day, what day of the week, if there's any difference in that, you know, is there Rydyn ni'n ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

to see different behaviors. So it's really being able to come closer to the consumer. It's a two way you could go back to how we'll have explained it in a in a party I talked about a a communication channel and it really is a two way. So it's what the brand can talk to the consumer about. So they can talk to them about um the heritage, for example, of the brand or the story of the farmer who whatever, you know.

Rydyn ni'n cael ei ddweud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. Or it might be something as simple as uh uh vouchers or loyalty programme or discount code, or it could be instant win. a 20% increase in sales. So that's also something obviously that most brands will be quite happy about. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r cymdeithas â'r cymdeithas â'r cymdeithas â'r cymdeithas â'r cymdeithas â'r cymdeithas.

Rydyn ni'n gwybod am hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwybod am hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwybod am hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwybod am hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwybod am hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwybod am hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwybod am hynny'n gwybod am hynny. Ac yw'r hyn, mae'r hynny'n cael ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud.

Felly mae'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid. Yeah, I always think about IKEA. Um, you know, those horrible diagrams of how to put 30 together. You show me a video app, I might be able to do it. But I certainly can't, it's just from the from the class.

That's true. I I think my expectation now for an excellent product is there's gonna be an unboxing experience which will be keyed off a QR code and uh that there will be a video there that you know uh and Unless as in the case of I I I just got this e bike. I love e bikes and uh I got my second one ever the other the other day and I scanned the QR code and I was watching the video

And I'm like, this is the best product ever. The packaging was beautiful and the video looked nice. And they said one of the opening phrases was. And welcome to your product. And all the setup's gonna be simple. Sigh of relief. All you need is these two torque wrenches, and at that point, I'm like. What? And at first I This is a joke, isn't it? I mean, I I barely know what a talk wrench is.

Uh and and I uh literally for ten minutes I'm like, that was a joke, wasn't it? And and one of the things I'm working on uh uh s s since leaving Williot is this uh or not one of the things, it's the thing is an app which Combines the ability to identify products with applying AI. And I love this little story because it it shows uh I I basically then Bought a talk wrench and still didn't know what to do with it. And I I basically asked AI whether I'd got the right one. And because of

uh, you know, this kind of recognition of the product. It was able to say, yes, and don't worry, you just set it to this and then you can set up your bike. So I think there's gonna be a set of use cases where

that kind of digital physical connection is really going to come into its own in the future. I you know, one of the things about what you do, uh, which I think is really makes you a fascinating person to speak to is that you're in marketing and marketing people have been beaten around the head since the beginning of dawn for metrics to you know, it's the old adage of

You know, I I I I know that half of what I spent on advertising is com a complete waste. The problem is I don't know which half it is. And I think, you know, since then there's been this desire to measure r the results and I know, having read your book, um, that you do gather results uh from all of this. And so you're probably you know, the rest of us techies are like

selling the AI, selling the whatever, next generation QR code. But I think you're interesting because you actually have to make it work, not in the coding sense, but in the business results sense. So, having buttered you up a little bit, let me ask you

What have you seen in the numbers over the years? Has there been any change or are there any trends that you see when you run campaigns that indicate give us some hope or learnings about the evolution of what you've been doing over the last ten years.

Yeah, no, definitely. And I I think that's the magic. I first was involved in in in digital advertising and I always just thought, you know, digital advertising obviously is better than everything else because you can understand you know, how it performs, what's the CTR? Um you know and and that's kind of where we've kind of started from is the eight. And and most people wanna this is like click through ratio or ratio.

you the the packaging or the product itself is a is a media channel and let's just turn it into a a digital media channel and we'll be able to track all of these different things and that's exactly what you're talking about and of course in the live

a real time dashboard you can see how many people have clicked, when did they click, what time of day as you were talking about earlier, but also for how long did they engage. And I think that's really, really important as well. We know that in this side range of TikTok and all these other things. The attention spam.

of the average consumer is super, super low because they're also bombarded with so many different things. You know, you've got so many different things and your brain's pinging and something else is pinging at you at this, at that, and all of these different things. So you're actually to get the attention of your consumer is really difficult.

Rwy'n meddwl y tiktok sy'n cael ei wneud rhywbeth sy'n cael ei wneud rhywbeth sy'n cael ei wneud rhywbeth. Felly mae'n ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. or connected products, whatever you're talking about. And we see on average two minutes. That's really good. And actually some of our latest

campaigns. So for example, the Sunny Oil campaign, that's a Middle East campaign, the uh cooking oil. We actually used AI, talking about AI. So we used AI, we used it as a

a way for you to uh create recipes with what you've already got in your fridge. So you would say these are the things I've got, this is the thing I want to make, and then it the AI would go away and give you give you a recipe in a cover of seconds. So you could actually create And actually we found that people spent seven minutes. Um and that's an average time, seven minutes. That's huge. You know, if you're really struggling to get one second, two seconds.

with your consumers and with connected packaging you can get seven minutes. I mean you imagine again you take it back to advertising. If you wanted to have a not even a seven minute, if you wanted to have a one minute T That's a very extensive thing, right? And then you actually don't know how many people watched it and you don't know how many people actually had that on the TV.

He was watching it and all those other things that comes obviously with TD appetizing where connected experiences, connected practitioning, we can actually tell you how many people were engaged, actually engaged. Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd.

is the amount of children that people came back to that app as well. So then if you want to take three times four, that's you know, sorry, three times seven, that's twenty one. 21 minutes of time. So then when you start talking about am I getting uh front of mind, I think is is the phrase I was trying to find uh earlier. Am I gonna get front of mind? Well obviously you're gonna get more front of mind if you've just spent twenty-one minutes.

Right, they're going to be at the shopping. Oh of course, subconsciously, if nothing else, they're going to be more drawn towards your product. Mae'n rhywbeth sy'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd.

And as more people become aware of QR codes, as more people find that this is actually if the brand does it in the right way, that the QR code is something where they can get something extra, they can find some value, something So that will not be the brands that just land people to their website. Please listen to me, brands. If you're doing that, change it now. It's a bad experience. But for those brands who are doing it right,

then actually consumers are starting to really understand that. So we're seeing the scan scan rates of the percentage of people actually scanning QR crates going up. So yes, that gives us some hope. So it's key it's not you don't it's not like falling off a log. You you you can't just slap a QR code on, point to your website and expect uh uh people to spend time up So where

What should be at the other end of that QR code? That's the I guess that's sort of what you spend your life designing and advising on. But um we know what not to do. Don't go to your website. What what should people put at the other end of that QR code? Think about what your consumers want firstly. So who are they? And and how can I bring them value? Because going to your website is definitely not going to be bringing them value. Why? Because nobody goes to brand.

there. They don't. They don't. Of course they don't, you know. And then Bruns say, Oh we we we do we do that already. And I'm like, uh you don't because you just I've tried it out. You just don't go to your website and you know how many people go to your website? Well I won't I won't name names, but there's a there's a there's a a brand that I spend quite a bit of bit of time with and uh The it was fascinating. They had recipes uh as part of their content strategy and

the recipes on their ad, you could see that the kind of engagement rate was sort of single figures, double figures. I'm talking about, you know, five to ten to twenty. But but then you you looked on social media uh where the same recipes they were getting hundreds of thousands, in some cases millions of of views. So that underscores your your point, I think. Uh yeah. Wow. It's it's a it's a link info as well. You know, if you scan up your phone

at that moment in time, you are interesting. You are you are interested. uh in finding out more. And so you need to deliver something to reward the consumer for that action at that moment in time when they're interested in finding out something.

So it's it that that that is a crucial moment, but it's also a moment which is uninterrupted. There are no ads on this particular media channel, right? So this is uncluttered. Again, going back to what I said before, really hard to get attention and uninterrupted attention. QR Code actually is that channel that allows you to be able to have that two minutes of pure interaction. So give them something great, give them something good. Think about what does your audience want?

And deliver that. And by doing that, then you can ask them for something back in return. Give us your name, your email address, tell me what flavour's your favorite flavour or why you purchased this or whatever it might be. Then you get a value exchange. And that's when it works really well.

So what would you point to as best practice in terms of extracting the data? So we've someone scanned the QR code and and maybe it's cause they want to do an augmented reality game, maybe it's because they wanna recipe, maybe there's some other reason. We'll talk about what those reasons are. But how do you recommend'cause you're I I assume pretty unbiased. Uh what's your advice to people w when they say, Well, I I I get this is a two way channel and I can listen. How do you help people listen?

So again, identify what it is that you can bring to your consumer, but also identify what it is that you want as well. And then get some advice either from an agency like us or maybe there's somebody in the business who has that that information or experience to be able to create something that really does give that value.

And then when you have that, then of course you'll be able to extract lots of different data points. So, you know, what's there what's the most favourite uh flavour of women aged twenty to to forty? What uh do the flavor do the kids like? At what time of day do people drink this? And we did a really, really interesting campaign with a fruit juice.

And what we found was that actually the further eastern Europe you go, people are still actually consuming fruit juice in the morning for breakfast, which is kind of the traditional thought about. But actually the more western you go, the bit of change. And people are now kind of consuming that fruit juice at three o'clock, four o'clock. It's more of a kind of pick me up type thing than it is actually that morning breakfast.

juice. So again, there's lots of different things that you can you can find out. Again, we also had a a really interesting milk client. It was um lactose free and everything that they did was always around uh lactose free living, how to live your life as a lactose intolerant person, all of this type of stuff. And I said to them at the very first meeting, how what percentage of people are lactose intolerant? And your consumers are going to like, Oh we don't know, but um it's it's the majority.

Okay. Why don't we ask that as one of the questions? One people scan. They're like, Oh, okay, so that was our first question. Are you lactose intolerant? Yes or no. Over seventy percent were not lactose intolerant. They actually traced it. because it was a healthy healthier option, or it was thought of as a healthier option. You can debate that in any way you like. But that massively changed them their their whole positioning.

Ah, okay. So it's not about lactose intolerant people at all. It's actually about healthy lifestyles. So the next campaign we did that of course was all about yoga and you could win gym memberships and all of this type of stuff. Very, very different to talking to you about lactose intolerant. Or lactose breeze. I think that's so cool. And you can see that as a marketing person, it's like, uh, well, what do I talk about to engage people? And they were probably spending like most of their money on

something that was largely irrelevant to most of their customers and you got to the bottom of it. And it's covered in your book as well. I just just proved that I did uh go through it and So where are people doing this scanning? That's what I wanna know. Are they doing it in the aisle of the supermarket? Or are they doing it when at two in the morning after they've uh on their um, you know, third round of the tequila beverage that has the QR code or NFC

tag on it. What w when's this when's when's this happening? And where? No, you're doing it two o'clock in the morning, Steve. Scanning scanning QR code. Here you go. Here's the key shots. No. So actually the majority of scans are actually done once they leave the store.

So um it is post purchase. Um of course there are some scans that are done in Isle, but that's normally when people are looking for ingredients because of diet, lifestyle restrictions, those types of things. So actually when you look at the majority is actually once you've left the store.

And that's I think a really interesting point for again brands when they're starting to design what what is my uh connected packaging or connected experience games look like. So yeah, it's it's it's actually post-packed. And is it because people want a a bit of fun? Uh or is it'cause people are interested in utility? Wha wh what are you seeing actually drives people to engage?

I think that just comes back to the product itself and the audience group that you have. You know, when we when we talk about food and drink. Uh, we talk about lawsuit, we talk about instant win, we talk about engagement, those are the types of things. So that could be games if you want engagement and you want to do some sort of game.

a chynwer yw'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn I think again you've got to think about who's my audience and what's my product and again that's when it's really good to get somebody who's really experienced in this to be able to help guide you because of course did you get it wrong?

gonna say, Oh there we connected uh digital QR codes, that stuff doesn't work. No, no, you've got to get it right. There's a couple of things I would recommend for people to get it right. Of course we've just talked about a few times now, making sure you know who who your audience is, what is it that they want, bring them some value. Second D is also think about where you put the QR code.

Also think about the size. If you make it less than two centimetres by two centimeters, and I know you might have problems with space on your pack, but again, people are gonna struggle to scan it or see it.

So think about that. Also think about your call to action. If you don't put any call to action, less people are gonna scan it. Then if you put a call to action it says scan to find out more, scan to find out how to use it, scan to win, all of those different things. And then lastly Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

to help tell people about it as well. So social media, for example, when we combine cymdeithasol, mae'r cymdeithasol, mae'r cymdeithasol, mae'r cymdeithasol, mae'r cymdeithasol, mae'r cymdeithasol because they know about it and still we're educating our consumers that there is a QR code um and that they can scan it and they can find out something interesting or get the opportunity to win or participate in something. And so those are kind of my golden rules to getting

Very good. And what is your i i in the in the book you have some interesting examples of QR codes, but I I assume that there's an ongoing battle uh on aesthetics with uh packaging. You know, people Want their product to look good. And the perception is that the QR code is kind of do gonna do the opposite. Yeah, so that's yeah. I mean there's that's There's two kind of schools of thought out there. Yn yw, mae'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw.

Um, the second say actually make it look fun, make it look interesting, blend it into the design and I'm sure you've seen like designs with print QR codes, Galaxy has some nice ones, Pringles have it in the st I think it's in the bastard.

Felly mae'n rhaid i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

then I think uh you want to go down the design route and that will keep the the the brands and the packaging people happier as well. Generally overall, um there are a lot of studies out there. Uh generally if you have a designed QR code it would do better uh by three times um and outperform your standard. Are you good? How are things going with this DPP digital product passport standard? Wa one of my uh as we were starting to talk about aesthetics, I thought about one of my favorite examples.

of QR codes on things, which is Ralph Loren and the you know, they now all of their shirts have got a little QR code in the label. And to me that speaks to integrity and quality and the fact that, you know, they're doing it because they wanna fight anti counterfeit and give people more information about their products. And I think they've really pioneered uh th that and you know. So hats off to them.

But w what are you seeing in terms of the adoption of serialized QR codes where every single product has a unique License plate. still kind of is it gonna be people leaving it to the last minute or are you actually seeing real brands doing it and and why wouldn't they do it? It seems so obvious. You you'd want that kind of unique identity.

It does. It does sound so obvious. However, it's a little bit more complex. to manage than uh, you know, uh a a standard one size fits all QR code across everything. Yeah. And so if we kind of look at what they've got to do, then they've actually got to manage their printer uh capability. Does our printer give us the ability to be able to do that? And that actually is sometimes a s a show stock up.

So when we're going down this journey of bringing people into the into the new age, or the QR age, we've got to we've got to look at a lot of different things and um really realistically speaking, serialised is the more complex because of course you've got to be able to fix that problem.

But once you do, then obviously you also get a a a better or deeper granularity of data in terms of well of course you you you can know exactly down to one where it is, whether it turns up in in in your consumer's hands. in France or Germany or or wherever whatever whatever it might be.

The thing is we've got to take people on that journey. I don't see huge of amount of brands moving to that space yet, but I think we've got to get people into the funnel. So Mae'r ymwneud yw'r ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. Where we you know, we have flavours and slices.

um to be able to then uh show again a different level in granularity of data. And then uh we can move then into into the serialized. And that's normally the journey because actually change the the printers or the printing process for a company that might be a little bit more traditional, that might have batteries all over the world, that might need to have a lot of different people to sign off and and things like that. And that's probably one of the biggest challenges actually.

Rydyn ni'n gweithio cymdeithasol, mae'n gweithio cymdeithasol, mae'n gweithio cymdeithasol, mae'n gweithio cymdeithasol, mae'n gweithio cymdeithasol, mae'n gweithio cymdeithasol, mae'n gweithio cymdeithasol, mae'n gweithio cymdeithasol. Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd.

Mae llawer o'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau Why would they announce as something that is? So it's Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd.

Of course, some brands are doing it. There's always some that are pioneering and are faster to move than others. as we get more and more people into to our codes and moving down that way, then we're gonna see a lot more people within serialized them as well. Yeah. So I another great thing that you have going for you, I think, is that you come in to all these different companies and you've got a ton of use case examples, case studies in in in the book. So I can see that you've been busy.

Uh you you come into all these companies from the outside and y you just sort of in that last segment you took us from me saying, you know, why is this so difficult? You got a website, you got a QR code.

And now y you know, at the end of that I'm like, it's amazing an anyone does a anything, especially in these massive companies, the the Procter Gambles, the Unilevers. What have you learnt in terms of People being able to bridge those silos and getting the technology people to work with the creative people and the I mean, there must be so many different departments.

And it's like the big companies that can afford to do it properly, but for them it's also the hardest because they're more siloed and this is new and so they're probably not set up to do it. How have you seen the best of the best? solve the silo problem. It's it's really interesting because in the last I would say two years there are now roles or teams that are actually dedicated to looking after um connected packages. I think that's a huge change.

that's happening in the larger companies. Of course they can afford to have um people who are really focused on that. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. Mae'n newydd. So that's a really big change and so those big companies are actually really dedicating time and resource to being able to move forward with this and I think that's a really big

statement actually for the future of connected packaging. And then of course you've got retailers, test goes, for example, trialling things as well. So again, this doesn't really talking about will connected packaging ever take off, will connected products ever be kind of in the mainstream? Yes, I think there's so many signals. Obviously it will, there's again all the things I talked about at the beginning as well.

But it is a a s a slow process for for people to pick it up and it does take time to also get all of your ducks in a row and all of the right things lined up. But yeah, I I I see that companies really dedicated to doing it. Yes, we've done a a a a lot of a lot of examples, a lot of use cases, a lot of brands. Um as I said, we've also been doing this for a really long time, but we're seeing more and more companies really kind of waking up to to the advantages and so

why the people want to do it. Definitely finding someone who's a bit of a innovator or a bit of a Mae'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n mynd. And I guess the kind of the classic uh part of the classic response to that question is get someone really senior to sponsor it.

Who w what's the job title of the best kind of the people that are most effective at driving that across the functions? Great, great question. And it does kind of depend on the on the brand. or the other company. Because it's what is um going to matter most to them. So is that authentication do they have a big authentication problem? Is is there, you know, a lot of folks or something that's harming the Disney?

yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r Incomplete US. Okay. So I realise we've been talking for a while, so I just have two uh topics that I quickly want to go through and the first one is

What is it about beverages and connected packaging? I I'm li uh seems to be like a huge proportion or maybe it's just your your um appetite, uh your your firm has just found a niche with beverages, but is there a special affinity between Uh I was gonna say booze, but you you talked about the uh the milk as uh another example. It it's it's way beyond alcohol. W any any reason why there's that? It w it mu it might be that um it's a little bit

skewed because that's where we um have a lot of success and therefore a lot of those brands then come to us because they see a lot of case study. Yeah. I also think that that the type of product that it is, it's a quickly consumed product, which means that There isn't a lot of stock that's sitting around for a long time. So if you speak to a brand and they want to do something, it's easier for them to do it.

um and get the packaging change. Whereas if you speak to something where maybe there's a shelf light because it's a a a different type of product for maybe a year or something that there might already be a lot of stock already around. So having to change anything actually then means you've got to wait a euro or two.

you know, people fall out of love of doing doing the idea of the motivation phase. So you think it's a combination of those things. But yeah, that I think maybe we're just a bit skewed as well because that's hope and a lot of success and so those brands now come to us.

Yeah. Well congratulations on that. Well I I I lied'cause there's actually another two topics I want to cover. But the next one is technology. And uh, you know, we spent a lot of time on this podcast because I I love the technology. But I think I want your perspective on kind of what's good and bad and how much is hype and uh what's your prognosis on the the QR code versus the NFC

versus the R F I D versus the B L E. And and I'm asking you about this not to try and get you to talk techie. It's actually the opposite. It's like As someone who just wants results, uh, you know, you wanna run a campaign and you wanna have some numbers that get you the next gig. Uh so I I I think you're probably the most objective about

The state of those at the moment and you know what you're thinking about in the future. And let me just throw one more in, one more technology in. We'll probably forget all of these, but the electronic shelf label, is that have a role to play? It's not packaging, but it's it's Some connectivity technology that's going into the shopping environment. What you know, what's your view on the efficacy of all of these

alternatives to QR codes. Because the QR codes is basically all you and I have been talking about, but uh but uh that's true. That's true. That's true. And actually we we focus on actually on the experience. So even though a lot of what we've been talking about is the QR code, actually the experiences and the value can be the same, whether that be RF R F I D, N S C

Oyo QR code, it doesn't really matter to us, actually, as Appetite Creative, what that gateway is. So, yes, very objective in that sense. The difference is if you're talking about food and drink or the majority of FMCG, then actually the margins are pretty small. So then if we want to put in the cost of what an RFID or NFC and yes the cost has come down in years, yes we know that but once you put a cost in there as well on top of what could have be or instead of what could be the QR code of cour

free, then actually that's when you have a problem. And what I spend most of my time um doing is is is coming back to the ROI because, you know you w if you if you spend something you want to get some ROI out of that, right? And then it's harder.

So I think really when you start talking about which one of these technologies is the right technology, then again you have to go back to all, you know, what's my product and what's my margin. When you talk about luxury products Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

Rydyn ni'n siarad am ymwneud â'r enghraifft, yn ymwneud â'r gwaith. Rydyn ni'n siarad am ymwneud â'r gwaith. Rydyn ni'n siarad am ymwneud â'r gwaith. Rydyn ni'n siarad am ymwneud â'r gwaith. a chanel, a luxury, a luxury product than actually RFID, NFC, something which is a little bit more automatically serialised.

that actually that might play into something again where you might want to understand the temperature of something for example um for qr code is obviously not going to be able to do that Very good. Uh last topic is your survey. You've li like your book. Your your I I think um credit to you on the connected packaging book'cause it's the second edition and That means it must have been worthwhile enough for you to put the time and effort to bring it up to date and I I see that you did.

And this survey, I don't know how long you've been doing it for, but uh I think it's great that you are uh doing it. What You know, what are you seeing, either retrospectively or any kind of ear early results that you you are seeing from submissions? What what do you what do you learn from the survey that has surprised you? No uh sneak preview on results because actually I don't know. So I haven't uh haven't even got anything to share and leak to you there.

It's our fourth or fifth connected packaging survey. So actually it's it's really nice to be able to see again, going back to what you said, where's the hope coming from? We're actually the amount of brand, the percentage of brand who are interested in doing. to practising last year was eighty eight percent. So We're getting pretty raps at the top. I'm not too sure whether or not we can vector that this year. We'll see.

But it's again really, really interesting to find out what brands are saying. Of course consumers, there's a lot of consumer surveys out there, but actually speaking to the brands um, you know, do you find it interesting? Is it something that you want to invest in? If so, how much and why? I think that's really, really interesting. And nobody was doing it. So um obviously we went out to to do that and obviously s we we we spread that information and it's uh

information there, Steve. Well, people will just have to come back and I think you're gonna do you d you do a webinar, right? On on Yeah, we do a webinar it's on the twenty seventh of February, so it's again free for anybody to tune in and see the results live.

Uh we've also got some people from SIG, from Aur Real, talking about the results as well. What do they think and what do we think? We'll see because I don't know what they what their results are gonna say, but uh we can uh we can certainly find out on the twenty seventh of February.

Jenny, you're in what to me looks like a Mediterranean environment. Where did you grow up? Well actually grew up in Hertfordshire in the UK, so near London. But I moved here, uh to Madrid, so you're right. Mediterranean. I moved here I think twelve, thirteen years ago. So I went to Hatfield Polly in in Hertfordshire. Was that anywhere close to where you were or or or not? Uh well I was born in Hamstead, so that's kind of close to Hatfield. Okay.

It's it's funny, my company's in an incubator at the moment, which sounds odd, but you know, this place for startups and I'm on campus at the University of California San Diego and it is like heaven. And the the amazing buildings and th these kids just don't know what they've uh uh got because Hatfield Polly. It was a wonderful education and the best time of my life, but it was a dump. It really was not great.

Helm Hemstead though, nice. That was that was very nice. Helm Hamstead is it's okay. I would say, you know, tring Berkhamsted. Maybe a little bit poster. Yeah, yeah. So how do you you you how do you run your agency? Uh are all the people with you in Madrid or are they um s uh uh uh over in Helmholthemstead or how how do you do that?

Yes, so um it's all kind of changed since since COVID. So previously we were set up in the UK and we had an office in Madrid. They were two really kind of central locations where people came to the office. Good day, Monday, it's Friday, normal as things were. And then when COVID came I'm sorry, we also had a uh a office in Dubai as well. Rydyn ni'n cael ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud.

we kind of terminated the uh contract there. And then once COVID had passed, people didn't really want to come back to the office every day anymore. And uh as much as I tried to force it maybe two days a week, three days a week. Whichever way I worked it. I just wasn't able to uh make the majority happy. So in the end actually we had a vote and we all um worked remotely. We do had uh spaces, so we do come together. So there is a time for people to be together physically.

But for the most part, everybody works remotely. We do a check in uh stand up call every morning, everybody logs in. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio Rydyn ni'n gweithio. Rydyn ni'n gweithio. Rydyn ni'n gweithio.

Huh. And w what is that tool? It sounds interesting. Well, it's called Tumi Space and you can have oh it has like um a boardroom area w uh has like a games area, there's donuts and a water cooler so you can go hang out at the water cooler if you feel like you just want to have a chat with someone there's donuts which you can which they uh go down, they take It takes bites out of it during your meeting.

You can share your screen, you can make notes on the whiteboard. It I think is integrated with Miro. So it's a a very good replacement if you can say replacement for for physical. I think it's the best we've we've tried a lot. We've tried a lot of them. And your business y you spent a lot of time with C P Gs. What what were you doing in Dubai? So yeah, Dubai the same as Madrid and the same as as London, so very much talking to to brands and helping them with their marketing desires. Very good.

Well, oh one last question. How long so I take it your Spanish is pretty good now. How long did it take you to to get uh proficient? Because You know, I'm of an age where my friends uh family are kind of retiring and, you know, one of the fantasies is total immersion to kind of get their Spanish from um, you know, uh textbook school boy, schoolgirl, Spanish to good. So how how long did it take you? Presumably you went through some kind of escalating proficiency.

So, I started by having somebody come to the office twice a week and having lessons in the office while I was living in Spain, so I didn't really speak. Rydyn ni'n gwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. But then the real thing that really helped me um to become fluent would be um I got myself a boyfriend who didn't speak English. And so That would do it. It's a motivator. It's a motivator, right?

Ended up marrying him, he still doesn't speak English. So yeah, the the uh language of the household is is mostly Spanish unless me and my daughter wanna talk about him and then we could do that in the Oh, that's really handy. And what about your daughter? Does she what what does she speak uh generally? Is she uh to you? Is uh uh except when she's trying to, you know, be in secret?

Like generally it's she it's you just having a conversation with me and Unless your husband's been very bad, in which case the whole the whole meal's done in English. Very good. So I asked you a question which uh I I'm I I'm intrigued'cause I don't think you did your homework. So uh are there so

I stole this idea, borrowed it. It's a tribute. It's a homage to Desert Island Discs, which you may or may not be familiar with, but uh longest running radio show in the world. Uh and th they get, I don't know, eight discs. So uh and it used to be on the show, I would say three songs. Uh and everyone, every not everyone, I would say one in four people said um Space Oddity or uh Rocket Man. And I'm like, this is not getting me what I want. What I want is something that's significant to you.

that has some meaning to you that that kind of relates back to your life. Not doesn't need to be your favorite song. You know, it could be you in a horrible traffic accident and You know, there was this song playing in the ambulance back to back to the hospital. Are there three songs that have meaning to you? Oh yes, yes. I didn't do my homework, so it's gotta be off the top of my head. But then maybe it's more truthful. So number one. Is uh pump up the jam, to literally.

I don't know if you know that song but I I was playing it this week. This week I was playing that song. I I promise you. No way. No way. Well that's that's that's my that's my uh Mae'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw.

You can't really not get into it. So Or going to a difficult meeting or an important meeting. You wanna kinda do yourself. You wanna pump yourself up, yeah, like definitely if you Are you sad or you want to motivate yourself or if you want to get into fight mode or whatever it might be? So definitely that would bring up number one. Uh and now I have to think on my feet. Number two would be my go to karaoke song, which would be Rolling in Deep, Adele.

Oh, very good. Yeah. Yeah. So if there's there's uh any kind of karaoke situation, that's probably my my go to. And my assumption from you saying that is that you can sing reasonably well. Is that is that true? Yeah, I can see a right singer. Yeah. Oh, I'm so jealous. I'm so jealous. Well.

And here let me help you on the third one. Is there something r that relates to your husband?'Cause no doubt he will dutifully listen to this podcast. I say that sarcastically, I'm sure he won't. But that's that's that's uh a place that you could go. You don't have to. But uh you know Yeah, oh uh yeah we could do that. We could do that. So I sung for him at my wedding, or our wedding, I should say. Yeah. A thousand years. So that's uh from the vampire film I forgot.

Okay. All right. So there you go. Pleasure to be. Wonderful. Jenny, it's been a real pleasure chatting to you. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. So that was Jenny Stanley. I really enjoyed my conversation. Hope you found it useful. for listening to staying to the end of the show. Thank you to our Podcast sponsors, uh Bleakon and Identive, uh without them. that we enjoy from Mr Aaron Hammock, our uh Like Reconteur, but focused on rock music. is moderated by two amazing guys, Gary K Sorry.

And Guy Pratt. So Gary was the writer. Yeah. Spend our ballot. Uh Charts and uh Guy Pratt's session. Anyway, they know the inside. Of the industry. And uh this is like full It's been going for a while. before COVID and they're great talkers and they have amazing guests. Who is this photographer? And her first first photographs were of the Beatles and her most recent was uh Oasis during the Love their conversation. So if you enjoy then check So that's the same.

Safe, smell the roses, enjoy the juice. See you next time