Ep 660: Barry Hertz

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This is actually the first episode that we're recording in 2026. The other two that you heard over these last couple of weeks, those were recorded last year. In fact, there's one coming up. around the end of next month, the end of February, that we recorded back in November of last year. That's right. There's reasons for all this that you'll be hearing in the coming weeks and months, but...

As of right now, 2026 looks like it's going to be an insanely busy year for both of us. God, please. But then I was thinking, we're recording this on the 9th. One year ago. Today, I was about to leave for Malta. Wow. And I went to Malta for three months, shot a movie there. Best experience. any of us from America had ever had on anything. Loved everyone. It was just this big love affair. Movie turned out great. Started editing it and nothing has happened with that movie in 10 months.

at the time of this recording 10 months almost a year nothing plug is pulled on the edit suite and more on that coming but in the meantime whole bunch of new stuff getting started and i don't know How we managed to do it in the past, because there have been times where both of us were in production and we still never missed a week of the podcast. This is going to be probably twice as hard as...

Last time, if everything. A good problem to have when we get to that point. Because that's always the way. We always think, how the fuck are we going to do this? And we figure something out. But hey, trying to be a glass half full. type of guy what this is at least we're starting the year with all of this stuff happening promise and uh excitement and that's a great way to start a year

Unfortunately, in the real world, the year has not gotten off to a great start, but we won't get into any of that. I just got back from fucking Europe. Aren't you glad you're back? No. Why not? But yeah, by the time this airs, 10 more catastrophes will have happened. So who cares? But speaking of...

Things that aren't... This is a terrible segue. How do I work catastrophe into this? I was going to try to work the word catastrophe into car somehow. Cartastrophe? Thank God it didn't work. Actually, cartastrophe is not bad. All right. You don't turn your back on that.

So our next guest is someone that as we were rambling on before the show, I was mentioning that I was in England or actually France, then England and France again for a holiday break. And I love walking around. I love walking, you know. like to go get a sausage roll at Greg's, which I guess is not considered, you know,

good form. If you really want to have the full expanse of the English experience, you don't go to Greg's. It's like going to Dunkin Donuts and going like, I need the best donut in town. If you're, if you want the best donut in town, chances are good. It's going to be a Dunkin Donuts. Sure. But on my walks every day, I need to have something in my ears. And I usually grab an audio book. And when this book popped up.

in my Audible wish list because it just, it knows what I want. I was like, and immediate purchase because I am a huge fan like Adam of the Fast and Furious series. And anytime that there is a... like something that says explosive chronicling of the making of a saga that we are both big fans of.

It's a must buy. And we have the author of that book entitled Welcome to the Family, the explosive story behind Fast and the Furious, the blockbuster that supercharged the world. Please welcome to the movie crypt, author.

Barry Hertz. So thank you for being in my head the entire time. You were like this wonderful inner monologue that was going on about every... story that you could possibly unearth about this very unlikely franchise that I have ties to from the first film because my dad was an auto customizer back in the day.

in long island and he would take me every wednesday night to a bunch of illegal races oh wow it was like it pink slips and everything it was it was right out of the movie so when a movie gets announced From the director of Dragon, who we've had on the show, Rob Cohen, we had on the show. We watched him. Story for after. Okay, we'll get to that. It was a wild one. But I was a big fan of Rob Cohen from Dragon.

And then for him to make a movie about like street life and race, the racing world. I mean, that was like for me and my dad, that was like, okay. pinnacle right there no we don't i i dragged him to eyes wide shut that was a big mistake so he's like we're going to see that fucking movie and we did and you know The authenticity behind it, aside from the CG shots of going through the Nas and everything, but it tapped into something so wonderful that like...

Rob and you know all the writers that were involved and obviously the cast they tapped into something that was you know really grounded and really exciting and really entertaining and just so happened to also be kind of a little bit of a heist movie. You reminded me of the moment where, uh,

I think they're stealing, what is it, the DVD players? Television with a DVD-VCR combo. And immediately I go, man, how many of us were dying for that when that first came out? Think about how far this franchise has gone, though. Or they started off stealing stuff like that. And then going into space. They're in space. Yeah. They're saving the Vatican. They're in space. They're, you know, black ops agents.

Fighting nuclear submarines. It's just one of those unlikely success stories in a way that you would never in a million years, the summer that that movie came out, go, I see where this is going. No. You know, it's the ultimate zag. When I was listening to the book, which you also read too, which, you know.

God bless you, sir, because it's not an easy process. This is something I discovered while doing that. Okay, I had to do that with a book I wrote because the book is supposed to be written by a character from one of the Hatchet movies.

Perry Shen who plays that character just sight reading is fucking hard especially a 300 page book that you didn't write and we realized early on I'm like this is going to take me months of editing to stitch this together i'm just gonna read it because it's when you're the one who wrote it it's a little bit easier sure you know what the dips and the curves are yeah and everything like that but

Man, it's a thing. Oh, it's a thing. It's definitely a thing. Was there ever an option? Did you want to read the book from the jump, or was that an option? I didn't even think about the audiobook portion of it when I was writing it. Because even though that it does like and for those who haven't read the book yet, this feels very much like you are. You've invested yourself into the storytelling. Oh, yeah. I mean, like I wanted it to be and, you know, my editor very much wanted to be in my.

voice on the page, but like just the old production process. I was like, Oh yeah, audio books are a thing. I just didn't think about it. And then when I finally finished and everything was edited, they were like, okay, well now we're going to do the audio book. And they said,

do you want to listen to some actors and we'll audition them or do you want to do it? And if you do it, we'll pay you extra. And I was like, well, okay, I'll do it. Cause I'll, I'll get the extra money. Um, and then I thought, okay, you know, I know how long it is. And then they're like, okay, great. So it'll be about like,

three weeks worth of like five hour sessions to start to see how it goes. I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah, this is actually a huge time commitment. But I was locked in at that point. So I just went with it. Well, okay. I have so many questions. Let's start, I guess, at the beginning. What was the first thing you remember writing and thinking, oh, wow, like... I enjoy doing this or I'm good at it or like, was it in school? Like, what was it? Yeah. I mean, it goes back to probably.

Grade six, grade seven. Like I was very much as a movie mad kid growing up in the suburbs of Toronto. And. I wrote really bad screenplays that were just complete ripoffs of movies that I liked at the time. And there was no final draft back then. There was no kind of formatting. Oh, wait. Okay. So did you do what I think I...

ended up doing too, cause I didn't have final draft. I would write it all out and then spend more time on the formatting and getting that fucking word and making it look like a script. Yeah. And I only did that cause there was a store in Toronto and downtown Toronto. not long gone called Hollywood Renaissance. And they sold, you know, real deal posters that were purloined from theaters and scripts. And I don't know how they got these scripts or, you know, like there's.

kind of like a great market of scripts back then. And I would buy. I can just imagine seeing some dude with like a trench coat. It's like, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. I got Jungle Fever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got the original screenplay. First draft. First draft. And I bought a bunch of those scripts. And then I just, that's how I learned. Like I just copied the formatting there. And yeah, it was a lot of tabs and spaces. And so that, that was probably like the first.

movie kind of writing I was doing, you know, aside from whatever I had to write in school, short story assignments, stuff like that. But I realized very quickly that, you know, I love writing and I love if I can write... either a movie or about movies, that would be ideal. So you wind up, I'm jumping ahead here, obviously, but choosing one of the biggest franchises to ever exist with some of the biggest movie stars on the planet.

And what made you think, I can get access to all them. They'll all want to talk to me. Watch. They're going to be reaching out. Vin Diesel himself is going to be like, I want to be part of this. But we've had like three authors on. just in the past two months, which is a little rare for us, but we're both avid readers or audiobook listeners. But it's...

It's such a daunting task to be like, man, I'm really fascinated by this series. I know a ton about it. I want to write a book about this. But then what made you think? Oh, they'll answer my call. They'll answer my emails. I mean, complete delusion on one hand. I mean, you have to go into it with a measure of outsized confidence that something will happen.

But this is kind of like where my journalism background kind of came into play. You started out as a critic. I started. Yeah, I started out as critic. I am still a critic. Like my day job is with the Globe and Mail, which is Canada's national leading news daily newspaper. Which in the byline says you're an unapologetic fan of the Fast and Furious series even before the book. Oh, yeah. That's been in my bio forever. So, you know, I have...

the journalism background, like I know, or I hope to know, or I think I know how to get to people and how to, you know, convince them to, you know, talk with me. But when I, decided to write this book you know I go through a proposal and I had some friends in publishing who helped me shape that and then I reached out to an agent and I got an agent and I was and then we shopped it around and it all happened very quickly actually but

When we sold it, I said, you know, I have no guarantee of access here. I have not... talked with anybody about this i've talked with i talked with like justin lynn in the past for my newspaper job and other people involved like chris morgan other people involved in the franchise so i wasn't like an unknown yeah you have a track record as a So I'm sure they assumed even if you don't already have an in here, you'll know the paths to take.

Exactly, yeah. But this series especially, not, I mean, obviously part seven with Paul Walker dying and stuff, we'll get to that. But there's always been... kind of hushed stories about how tense the set is, the egos involved, uh, that it's that P were you able to get people to speak completely honestly about that to you or did they try to. hide it? A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. So the kind of first, so immediately once the

you know, the book was in motion and the deal was signed, I started reaching out to anybody that I could. And the great thing about this franchise to explore is that there's so many films. They're huge films, so there's hundreds of people who have worked on each of the films. So I thought just playing the odds and just being a pure numbers game, eventually I will...

get somebody to reply to me and somebody will talk and that will lead to another conversation. And does it also help? Or even if you're starting with like crew, but. Chances are good. The crew is friendly with other crew and maybe the cast. Exactly. And then they start saying, Oh yeah, you want to talk to, he's great. Like I talked to him and then people are suddenly more.

It that's exactly it is very much a domino effect. And once people once I had like a few conversations and people saw where I was coming from, like this was, you know, this was written from a. ride or die fans perspective. Like I have been following these films.

you know, sincerely since the beginning, it is not me just kind of coming in, parachuting into this world and like, okay, what's the drama? What's the, what's all the gossip? What's the beef? I wanted to know everything, but I wanted to know it from like somebody who felt that these films had not gotten. the respect or the kind of conversation that they had deserved for so long. So once that kind of got out into the air, then connections were made. People would reach out to me and it was great.

You know, from the very beginning, as I started that process, one of the first things I did was, of course, I went to Universal and I was like, I love these movies. I'm writing a book about them. Will you help me? Even clearing photographs or things like that, did you have to deal with that? Well, there's a... So, yeah, part of the deal with the...

the publishing of the book was like, okay, you have to deliver this many words. And also we have a contract for you to deliver this many photos. However you get those photos. Good luck. Yeah. So fortunately, you know, some of my sources would. you know, send me stuff that they shot and, you know, they would clear the rights for that. And then, you know.

there's a lot on wire services, right? Like just even, not even just film stills, but you know, cause we've all seen those film stills, but behind the scenes photos. So, you know, I had to pay for some of those and that's just kind of the way it is. So I wasn't too worried about that. I was more worried. It was like, is Universal going to open the books for me? See, that's one of the fine lines between becoming a companion piece that the studio controls.

There was a book that came out. I love making of books and legacy making of books. There was one, a Ghostbusters one called A Convenient Parallel Dimension. James Green Jr. wrote it. And in the beginning, he says straight up, he goes.

I reached out to Columbia, told them that I was going to do a movie about like a book about all of the stories and all of the trials and tribulations of making these Ghostbusters thing. And they said, we'll give you full access, but we have final cut basically. Right. We like, we have. like we have control over what you can say and what you can't say. And he like right up front said, I declined that because I didn't want this to.

I wanted to show both sides of it. I wanted to be able to say, you know, this happened and that happened. And some of the stories aren't so flattering to some people. And, but it wasn't a hit piece that was, you know, and he even told them that and they said, okay, go with God, you know, like go for it and do it.

And that was, for me, such a perfect setup because I've read those books before that feel like those companions. How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? I'm 42. Okay. So I don't know if you remember these, but back in the good old days. they would have those companion books that would go along with Raiders of the Lost Ark or Rocky IV, and you'd buy them in the theater, and they would have a compendium of...

pictures and little anecdotes and stuff like that. But it felt like thinking back at it felt very scrubbed, you know, where everything is great and everybody's having a great time. I mean, at that point it's like an EPK, right? Yeah. But even DVD commentaries, especially. back then when it's a new release movie you'll hear these gaps of silence and it's because something probably got cut out right but every everything has to be positive everything's great you can say it was hard but

that's where any type of honesty ends. But then over time, then you see... you know, re releases or new additions and there's a new commentary and now it's a little bit more honest about it or whatever. So for you to be able to write a book and for, for all of these people to trust you. with this and that you're not saying, Oh, I'm a huge fan of it. And then you're going to basically write what's

like a hit piece on this huge cash cow for universal. Um, it's just, it's great that they trusted you and that it all turned out so well. Well, so the, the, the story though is they didn't trust me. Well, universal didn't trust me, but they, it was a very similar situation to the ghost. So I reached out to them and it's a little different coming from Canada.

because i'm at a remove like there's a universal office in canada but they're at a remove so i went through a lot of kind of middle steps to get to them and i came down to la to do some research in the spring of 2024 because I just thought I had to be here you know I have to talk to as many people face to face break bread like that's how you you know develop a relationship that's how conversations are had and you know one of the first people I met finally was some people from Universal.

We went out for a very polite but very efficient lunch out in Universal City. And they basically, I think, just wanted to kind of suss out my intentions. But the kind of party line right off the top was... We've never cooperated with an author of a book about one of our properties, and we're not going to start doing that now. But...

go with God. But we're not helping you. We're not introducing you to Vin. We're not making connections, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I was like, that is kind of what I had anticipated would happen. But it was still, you know, it was a challenge all the same. And so but from that point, I'd already talked with several people. I'd already talked with Rob Cohen, for instance, and that opened up a lot of doors. Yeah. And then it was.

really just me spending you know months and months and months sending thousands and thousands and thousands of emails and you know, DMS and LinkedIn requests and bugging managers and agents and lawyers and assistants. And half the time they probably don't get back to you the first time. And then you got to try. Oh yeah. No second time or the third time I had like, you know, and then I would.

create a doc where like okay who do I need to follow up and how much you know and I would make sure not to give like a certain grace period because you don't want to be that guy who like 24 hours later back in the inbox so yeah it was all kind of like I eventually got into a rhythm

of it um but it you know it all worked out and eventually yeah one person leads to another and while i wasn't able to get vin and if vin is perhaps listening to this i would still love to talk with you um i was able to get a lot of the people who

make these movies happen. A lot of the crew, a lot of the writers. It was honestly, and this is from someone who's read the whole book, I think one of the coups of this is not like, you know... the extensive stuff that you got with Justin Lin was great, especially considering that like he was.

really where the series took off was where the, you know, the, the seed of a better tomorrow. Oh wait, no. So better luck tomorrow. Not, not the John will movie, but how that morphed into taking it to the next level. And. So to have access to him, but it was J.J. Perry and all the visual effects guys and the editors.

Fred Raskin who's not just a former guest but a very good friend who is probably listening to this right now going like I have notes but the fact like those As much as it's great to be able to talk to the Morgans and the Coens, and unfortunately, I'm sure you didn't get to talk to John Singleton at that point, but to have...

The below the line fill in the very crucial gaps that the stars are not used to being able to talk about. Yeah. Well, I will. That's what glues it all together. I unfortunately. Didn't get Len himself. Really? That's archival material that's quoted there. Yeah. So anything in the present tense, that's my stuff. Anything past is archival. But, you know, Len was...

He's done a lot of interviews out there, so that was good to vote. But I did get his inner circle. So I got Fred, and I got all his editors, all the perfect Storm team. Lin was like my white whale, because I do think that he is... Or he did become the creative architect of the franchise. And, you know, I wanted to part of the reason we're writing this book was to kind of like give him his due as a.

top tier director. Like I think he really should be spoken of in the same breath as a Villeneuve or even a Nolan, like there to, to manage these massive properties. Yeah. Well, I know, again, I'm jumping ahead here, but did you talk to Juan? No. James would not. He was close. He's one of our only friends who has never been on the show. Really? He's just not really that guy. He'll do it sometimes when he has to for things.

Man, am I envious because he can just let the work speak for itself. There's always marketing behind it. People are going to know it's out. He doesn't have to do that stuff. And I think he likes to let his work.

But he went through Fucking hell That's why I wasn't surprised when He wasn't coming up I've always said like he's the goat of horror i know we all love carpenter we loved west craven romero all that stuff and without them there'd be nothing but just looking at box office alone which normally i don't like to do because a lot of my favorite stuff i mean one of my favorite

Bands is dangerous toys. They didn't win Grammys or sell hundreds of millions of records. So I don't try to base success on that. But in the horror world, nobody can touch James Wan. And then what... I just can't think of anyone that I know of who could have handled what he went through on seven as well as he did. And I know.

It's easier. That makes it sound like, oh, and he just handled it famously. No, it was hell. He ended up with like illnesses over that. I mean, how do you not? But that must have been such a fascinating. moment in that franchise's history to be speaking to the people about who were there. I mean, the lead of, you're on part seven of this. billion dollar thing and the lead dies in an accident horribly and the movie's half shot and now what do you do

And just approaching that, they obviously knew you're going to ask. I mean, that's the story of that movie. I mean, yeah. I mean, that's why I thought, first, it was kind of like, this is a franchise that I love. I've loved seeing it evolve into. as we say, like this absurd, crazy thing. But the off-screen evolution of it is so fascinating in and of itself. And there are these unprecedented moments in Hollywood history which are very much...

intrinsically tied to the Fast franchise. Like, yeah, Paul Walker, like your star, you know, dying mid-production in a deeply tragic and ironic fashion is just horrible. And yeah, I was... Close with James, but James is, as you say, he's not one to talk a lot about his work. The only Fast and Furious film without a audio commentary is Furious 7.

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New year, new vibe. You want the warmth of a drink, that smooth little kick, but you also want to wake up tomorrow feeling amazing. That's where RK comes in. RK is the world's first zero-proof spirits brand, and they invented the warm molecule, giving you the burn of whiskey or... We'll be right back. And I don't think James has ever done an audio commentary since maybe Saw. I think it was Saw. I think it was Saw. Yeah, that was it. But I did get a lot of people who were in his very close orbit.

And to learn about exactly what he had to deal with while doing that and all the health concerns that came up, it sounds just... I do not blame him for not wanting to revisit that time. No, but it's been...

One of the joys in doing this for a career is watching him win, especially when all the cards are against him, because you can never bet against him. I mean, look at... after uh dead silence and then there was like death sentence death sentence which was super fucking cool yeah but it almost seemed like oh man the saw guys

he might be on his way out and then insidious conjuring fast. If you're like just Aquaman, just fucking boom, boom, boom, boom. You can never count him out. No, definitely not. Uh, fucking wow. And I, that's why I feel like furious seven, like, If they couldn't have Justin there, then thank goodness they had James, because who else could have been able to keep that whole thing together? While still somewhat retaining, and that's one of the...

The Alien series for me for a very long time was one of those franchises that was like a creative sponge where you could see... Ridley Scott in Alien. You could see James Cameron in Aliens. You could see Fincher in Alien 3. You could see Jean-Pierre Genet in Resurrection. And, you know, I knew of Lynn's work from... Better Luck Tomorrow and from Annapolis, you know, and like all of his stuff.

It's all there. When I saw Tokyo Drift, funny enough, I was in Tokyo when they were shooting Drift Racing. Oh, wow. I was in Osaka. And we kept hearing about, what the fuck? Fast and Furious is here and they're shooting drift racing because some of the drivers that we were shooting were some of their stunt performers. So it was wild to see like, holy fuck. And from...

The guy that did Better Luck Tomorrow, because Perry Shen from the Hatchet movies was in that as well. The whole thing with Better Luck Tomorrow, it's... often on it's one of the movies that's playing on airplanes that's like an option to watch oh yeah which is surprising all these years later that it it's always there um and

If it's available on whatever plan I'm on, I'll play it. And I always send Perry like a screenshot that I'm playing it, even if I'm not going to watch it, if I'm going to read or whatever, but I'll play it just so he gets that, those two cents or whatever it is. I'll be like, Hey man, I'm trying to help. But that's one of the point was that like I love how each of the fast movies in one form or another feel like.

a Rob Cohen movie and like watching furious seven, there's that moment in that fight scene where, um, I think it's when you're talking about the camera flip, the flip. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, there he is. There's James right fucking there. That's like right at the beginning. It's the Jason Statham rock battle in, in like the, with all the glass and everything. Do you remember in, That sentence, the chase in the parking structure and the handoff between camera operators, the way...

This whole group of us in the theater all started clapping and cheering. And I'm sure other people are like, I don't get it. But you could just... you wait for those moments with him. Cause you know, it's coming at some point. He's going to do something really fucking cool. Yeah. And it's always exciting when it happens, but that's to go, to go into another kind of element of.

The Fast series has always been there for us in one form or another for a very long time. Like I was mentioning how my dad and I bonded. Because he didn't like the fact that I wanted to be in movies and I didn't want to be in cars. But this movie brought us together. Two worlds, yeah. And, you know, same thing, like, seeing...

the Tokyo world that I was shooting in Tokyo drift. When Adam and I were in Vegas, we went to go see fast five. And at that point, not that I wrote the series off, but I wasn't a fan of four for like, and I know that I'm right there with you. It just, it, it, it feels like a means to an end. It's a way station of a film. But then I remember walking out of fast five and going, what the fuck did we just watch? Shit just got real. Oh yeah. And.

Ever since, like, for all the movies, in one form or another, those films have been, like, kind of... I don't even want to call it comfort food, but... like after the pandemic, when, uh, was a fast nine was the one that first came out. Yeah. And I remember all of us going and it was like, the movies are back. You know, it always finds a way. to be there for us in one form or another. So I wanted to kind of pose it back to you.

when was the first time that you saw the first movie? And I'm not going to go like, and did you know back then that you were going to write a book years later? But how did the movie affect you when you first saw it? So I have a very visceral memory of seeing the first one. So I was working as a teenage popcorn sweeper at my local suburban multiplex in Toronto. Yeah.

And it was summer of 2001, and I was an usher. And, you know, the ads for the film coming in were really good, very strong marketing. But nobody expected.

it to be from the director of the skull yeah yeah exactly like nobody expected to get the influx of crowds that we had and I think it was in one of our smaller theaters and then we quickly decided okay this needs to like go bigger the studio decided whatever however that works but i probably so i every weekend the benefit of course working in a movie theater is you get free movie tickets so i saw it that opening weekend i was like whoa what is this thing

Because, you know, I liked action movies and I was, you know, very much following everything. And I'd seen, I think, Pitch Black at that point. And I'd seen The Skull. So I was familiar enough with the two guys. But when you put them on screen together, there was something like... really magical was happening. You're like,

Okay, there's something going on here. And just the hijacking scene at the beginning. Oh, my God. I didn't know that that was the first time that they had ever attempted a stunt like that where the car goes under the thing. I thought it was Christmas vacation. I'm like, wait a second. That's all bullshit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is how you do it. Exactly. And then when they repeat that later on during the second one where Vince gets his arm caught. I don't know. It was like it was amazing. And, you know, the tuner parties and, you know, it's like a teenage boy. Like you're seeing like all these like.

insanely hot women pressed against the car. Like, and I don't know, it was just something about it. It was exciting. It felt like a, like the curtain had been pulled on a world. Like, again, I grew up with that, but no one had ever captured that the way that like my. Dad would always talk about cruising on, not that type of cruising, you know, cruising on Huntington Boulevard in Long Island like they did in... American Graffiti. And that car culture in that movie...

And no one had really captured that feeling that you got when you were walking down the line and everyone had their hoods up. And, you know, in some cases it was beautiful women with their butts sticking out and everything. But then the pink slip. And that pink slip moment, that moment where there, I don't think I've ever told this story before.

My dad had this guy who worked at his shop that was a window tinter. What we didn't know was that he was also a professional hustler. So do you guys remember the Pinto? Yeah. Okay. So he retrofitted a Pinto with a big block 350 engine, but didn't tell anybody. So he would go to races with this. it would practically like wheeze when it got up to the starting line and people are like get the fuck out of here and he goes alright we're going pink slips and

For at least three weeks during the summer of I think it was like 97, he won every race because all of a sudden this fucking Pinto would be screaming out of the gate and would win. And the adrenaline that you get because. what the one thing that all of these movies, like when they were about the racing,

that you don't get is when everyone takes off, you're always looking at the girl that's in between the cars that brings up the thing and brings it down again. And, you know, and you see them bolt off when they're going that fast. in a quarter mile, you don't really know what's going to happen on the other end. Yeah. But you know, in the movie we're stuck with them the whole time and I'll never forget.

seeing the movie i think it was like the second or third time in the theater that summer in 2001 and um When Ja Rule goes, menage! And someone in the crowd went, twa! And that's when I knew, like, holy fuck, this movie is kind of a phenomenon that people are going back to go seeing it again and again. And as much as, you know, the heist was exciting, people were going for the cars and they were going to see, you know, Vin, there was an almost...

uh, like racial androgyny to him. You didn't know what he was. Of course. So he was the every man at that time, which was so exciting. Exactly. You could see any, any audience could see themselves there. Yeah. And it was also because it was so trying to appeal to the authenticity of Southern California car culture at that time, which was a lot of...

young Vietnamese kids, young black kids, young Hispanic kids. And these were underserved markets at that time. They didn't see themselves up on screen. Certainly not in movies that were not extremely niche plays. you know, what month that summer did it come out? Was it July? It was July or August. I think no, it was either June or July. It was a, it was a J month. So the, the big, the big debate, which I,

get into in the book was it was originally supposed to be a spring break movie. Yeah. And it tested so well that they were like, you know what, we're going to make this a summer movie. And one of the, the head of marketing at the time, Mark Schmugger, who would go on to become. chairman of the studio.

was like, I'm going to make the biggest bet of my life, and I'm going to push this against what was then considered the sure thing of the summer, which was Dr. Doolittle 2 with Eddie Murphy. And everybody in the studio was like, you're crazy. Dr. Doolittle 2 is going to cream us. This is career suicide.

If we do this and it fails, you're out of here. I'm so glad you brought this up. So I saw Dr. Dolittle 2 in the theater, but only because I, this is only, I think it's one of two movies I ever walked out of. And he gives me shit for this all the time. But I went to see Evolution. And after 10 minutes, I'm like, no, I can't. I can't do this. I love Evolution. The effects were so bad. I'm like, I'm not. Yeah, I should watch it again.

And it's like, well, what else is playing? And Dr. Dolittle 2 was starting. I'm like, fuck it, I'll watch this. I don't remember a thing about that one either. But when it came to Fast and the Furious, at the time, so I was living... over the hill in Hollywood at the Running Canyon entrance. I was there for like my first 10 years out here.

And my roommate at the time, Jason Shapiro, was an assistant at UTA. And another friend of mine, Kyle Harimoto, was an assistant at UTA. And for weeks, they're like... We've got to see Fast and Furious the moment it comes out. This movie's going to be fucking huge. Because everyone at UTA was like, this is going to be a huge fucking hit. I have no interest in seeing it. No interest in any aspect of it. But they're like, we have to go. We have to go opening night.

So I got my wisdom teeth out that morning and it was my first time ever on painkillers because I don't know what they gave me afterwards, but something really strong. So I'm like, holy shit out of my mind. And they're like, come on, we got to go. So we went with Sarah Albert as well. Sarah knows producer of the hatchet series. And, um, we go into the theater and the air conditioning dies and it's summer and it's hot as.

fucking balls and it's you're just sitting in sweat but it was completely packed and the audience was so into it and i thought it was just because of the painkillers that i was like i think that's the greatest movie i've ever seen in my life um it might be better than et But I've never forgotten that moment. And then it was only a few weeks later, 9-11 and all the other stuff. But it was such a...

a weird moment in time because there was an innocence when that movie came out that this country was soon to lose. And. The fact that those movies keep going and keep bringing people to the theater and back together again is pretty amazing. You know, you bring up a really good point with 9-11 because I remember... because Entertainment Weekly would do these spreads about best DVDs, best movies of the year and everything. And Fast and the Furious was one of their top movies.

on DVD at the end of the year. And they were saying it was like, that was one of those movies that people gravitated towards because everything was so grim. on TV. Everything was so grim in the world. And whether they saw it in the theaters or not, that DVD was so fucking jam-packed with stuff. This was at the peak of DVD special features where they're making everything. Even the menus are almost more expensive than the movie itself. Oh, but the worst is when they would keep repeating.

Because if like you walk away to go to the bathroom before you hit play and he keeps playing the same. Yeah, but it's still it was still it was the going through the fucking car moment, which I didn't mind at all. But I think that was one of the reasons that people gravitated towards this. was it was at this time that we needed that

We needed, you know, Matt Schultz talking cha-cha chicken, you know, which was one of the first places that I went to in LA because of that fucking movie. I'm like, what is with cha-cha chicken? Why is everybody like talk about that movie? Like there's this line. for the cha-cha chicken, where I think he's like, there's food all over the place. Or something like that. I was like, what do you mean food all over the place? It felt so lived in. We've all been there. The unexpected hosting panic.

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Download the Instacart app and get game day deals. And that's part of the reason why I think I was excited about like going there because it felt like, well, if they're talking about it in Fast and Furious, it must be good. It was not really good. Let's be honest. I don't know. Sorry. The Galaxy Theater, by the way. on Hollywood Boulevard. That's where we went. Um, they closed, I think it was like a year after that too. It became an LA fitness. You remember that? Yes. I wonder.

if they couldn't pay their fucking air conditioning bill. And that was what happened that night. But it was miserable. Like one of the best and worst movie going experiences I've ever had. It's interesting because that is also... a very sweaty film. It is. Like everybody on screen is tripping buckets. Especially if you were on whatever I was on, Vicodin or something. Like you really felt like you were in the car with Vin Diesel. I was like, let's do this. It's about family. But considering.

Sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, I was just going to say the theatrical reaction, when I first saw it back in my movie theater days working there, that's the thing. Everybody who came out of that theater would then... be driving home very fast insane fashion the parking lot was just a disaster zone of people trying to do screeching out donuts in there like you know the Acuras that were not souped up or anything like that like it was like okay I'm gonna try this right now um so it was

very funny watch what was the if there's one you could narrow it down to what was the biggest surprise as a fan of this series that in speaking to people you were like oh my god i had no idea about that I mean, I think there was like, I had like moments every interview. All the David Ayer stuff. I had no clue about that. Oh, really? Okay. That's interesting. I didn't know that. He's probably been the most vocal about it. Oh, yeah. I know. He's...

Not one to shy away on Twitter or in interviews. But that was fascinating for sure. Just the inner workings of it. I think it was a very educational experience about how movies are made. Okay, I want to throw this out then. Which movie have you re-evaluated after? Four, I bet. No, I was always middling on four. feel I'm still middling on for and talking with people who worked on for, they were like, yeah, you know, it was, it had some problems. Um,

there was some interesting stuff. There was interesting stuff on four with the stunt people. And there was like a guy who was fired and then brought in. And you can see that reflected in the ultimate product. Cause that tunnel chase at the end is pretty like, yeah, it's pretty, it's a grim movie. It's a dark. Dark movie. It's the darkest, sourest movies. Funny enough, it's four and eight that I don't find myself revisiting. I'm exactly...

the same way for eight is probably my least favorite. It is, it, it, it has a sourness to it. It has, well, like for me, the revelation of like, cause I remember when they would do all the video diaries and it'd be like, what's up, what's good y'all. It's F. Gary Gray, I'm here. You know, we're making this crazy movie.

And not realizing until you read the book, like, that was all facade. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there was, I guess one of the most surprising things I learned was, yeah, people did not love the F. Gary Gray experience. And, again, I feel that is refreshing. in the ultimate product of the film. And that was also the film where the Vin-Dwayne tensions really kind of exploded. But in terms of reevaluating, I would say...

When F9 came out and the space moment, I was like, I don't know about this. Well, because it is...

Any time that a franchise gets to a certain place, it becomes space. Why was space too much for us and not all the other shit that these guys do in cars? Instead of sending SEAL Team 6 in the military to take out a nuclear... sub they're like get vin the family and that souped up mustang they'll take care of this and we all as an audience go yeah but then they go to space and we're like whoa it's still earthbound i guess yeah i was like there's nothing realistic in those movies anymore

Completely. But you know what? So I was like... Space, I don't know, this isn't doing it for me, when I watched it. But when I started talking with people, and especially the Justin Lin inner circle, about the conception behind that and the idea behind that and the kind of meta-contextual...

you know, dialogue that it was having. They were talking to NASA. Well, but they were, you know, it was Tyrese and it was ludicrous. They were up in space. In a Fiero. In a Pontiac Fiero. And they were saying like, you know, can you imagine like two guys from the ghetto? up in space and this was the franchise speaking on its own you know atmospheric rise and it was like this is

what the fans have always been joking about, but we're going to meet that joke, but we're going to do it in a sincere fashion as well. So I have come around to the space scene and feel it's almost like emblematic of the franchise's ambitions to keep... doubling or tripling down on itself each successive installment. And so, like, I laughed so hard at that scene, but then...

Whoever I was with was like, that was fucking stupid. They just jumped the shark. Oh, that's where they jumped the shark. There was a nuclear sub you could call the shark. That's when they jumped it, when Vin took the charger across the sub. But yeah.

Okay. I have so many questions, especially with a journalism background. I'm assuming in most cases, whether it was an assignment or something where you took an interest in it and we're like, I want to write about that. I'm assuming you go into it just.

wanting to know all there is to know not necessarily with an angle of like how do i make this look good or how do i make this look bad just i want to know everything and i'm gonna report what what i know what i what my opinion is whatever it might be um But when you're talking about something like this, and I'm glad we just brought up the space thing, because we deal with this in the horror genre sometimes, there'll be one thing where people go, well, that's ridiculous.

That is, the whole thing is ridiculous.

easy examples the gas-powered belt sander and hatchet those don't exist in real life nope and neither do undead swamp monster ghosts that keep coming back every night right so you were okay with that yeah yeah but that's where you draw the line is like well no you have to plug that in and the thing is we made one that works it's it does exist in real life now you can't buy one but still anyway um but when you're talking about a series that takes access and says hold my beer

watch how much excess we can do. How do you approach that? without ever being cynical or talking down about it. Because it is ridiculous to a lot of people, but that's also why we love it. Yeah, well, I mean, I guess that's... Without throwing guilty pleasure. It's not a documentary. Yeah, and I don't like, you know, I don't even like the term guilty pleasure. I hate it.

It's pleasure. Pleasure is pleasure. And that's what I feel these movies are. Yeah, I hate that. And so I guess it kind of was like baked into the whole... idea of me even thinking or writing about these movies is because I do love them sincerely. And I would never talk down to them. And the idea of the book was...

And basically as a rebuke to the people who do. It is so easy to say, oh yeah, I'm excited for the Fast and Furious movies. And then somebody will be like, Fast and Furious, that's kind of stupid. But it is one of the biggest franchises. Of all time, people are watching these and they're not doing it because they hate themselves for doing it. Why do you think that there is like, why? Because I think we're going through this now where.

Like, I don't know a single person. And, you know, I've been around the world in the last, like, three or four weeks. And I don't know a single person who went, fucking Avatar 3, man. Best movie of the year. Holy shit. It's made a billion dollars, yet no one will admit that they like it.

Well, I don't understand why people can't just... It doesn't have to be an awards contender. It doesn't have to have a four-year consideration in front of it. It doesn't have to have festival reads. As long as it's... It's playing the space it sets out for itself and it's meeting the goals of that space and of that genre and what audiences and fans kind of hope to see from a...

Fast and Furious movie, a four-month Avatar movie, or, you know, whatever, then it works. Then it's a success. It doesn't have to be a prestige thing. With something like Fast and the Furious or Avatar, internationally it can speak to everyone you don't even need to understand what they're saying to

to find a Fast and the Furious movie exciting. So you could be watching it in another language, maybe it's subtitled, maybe it's not, but it's still an experience you're going to enjoy. I think that's where Avatar...

keeps shining as i think worldwide the technology the idea that it is a theatrical experience if you don't see it in the theater that's fine if you want to stream it at home you're never going to see the movie like the rest of us did unless you saw it in the theater yeah now like you I don't know a single person who gives a fuck about Avatar, yet it makes billions of dollars. And I feel awful saying that because one of my closest friends is in the movies. But I was...

He got a, he got a good juicy part this time around. Finally. Well, the thing is they shoot from months and there's all these storylines. And then when they go see the movie, Oh wow. So none of that's in this. Okay. Like imagine having that luxury, but, uh, It's I feel bad saying this because but I like the night before because I bought the ticket like two weeks in advance because I needed to see it.

3d 4dx have the whole experience but i was dreading it and i had anxiety and then my wife kept reminding me you can always leave you're not being held hostage i'm like yeah but it's like three hours and 90 hours more long or however fucking long it was and i'm like i don't care about this it's boring it's always the same story they're gonna fight they're gonna go in the water there's gonna be a cute whale um but the fucking technology. But now I'm, I just hope.

As the cameras and all that stuff start to spread, I don't want to see cinema become that. Because it looks really cool for an Avatar movie or a video game. But I don't want to watch regular movies like that. probably just my age. Maybe there's kids today. Like if every movie could look like a video game, I would be all in the high frame rate stuff. Oh my God. I can't do it. Before Avatar.

It's like, all right, that's what this is. It doesn't look like anything else. But if you're watching any of them at home, especially on TV or whatever, like on a regular camera, you didn't see it. You just didn't. If you've seen Dances with Wolves, you know the story. But the spectacle of it and the water, the translucence of skin that they're doing, it's for technical geeks, I think. And then just people who want to go to the movies.

and experience wonder. And I think that's the appeal of it. It isn't, it doesn't have the same storyline that compels people. Look, superhero movies.

I say this all the time. I don't give a fuck about any of them. They're boring as fuck to me. It's the same thing over and over again. Same set pieces. Nothing is at stake even though everything's at stake. They're all going to die. He snapped his fingers and they're all dead. I'm like, and then what happened? They came back. Oh, well, yeah, they came back.

back right so nothing matters in this world but that's just me i still appreciate how well made they are that people love them but fast and the furious no matter who you are where you live what you do there is something exciting about those movies for people to watch. Even if you think they're stupid, it doesn't matter. Everything doesn't have to be...

Ken Burns six-hour documentary about something. It's okay to watch something and just fucking like it. It's cool. It's all right. And to that point, what I think makes this fast franchise stand out is that... you come for the spectacle and you come for that, especially now, especially now. And the comedy, they're, they're funny moments in those movies. And there's,

There's actual emotion because you have been following these characters. You know them. And you actually like these characters and you're invested in whether they, you know, obviously we know they will live to see another day, but you want to see exactly how they go about that. I think that's, that's where it was established in five. I remember when we saw it in Vegas and they have that scene where everyone's just hanging out and they're concocting the plan and you go.

I know every single person I've seen them in do other things in the other like installments and I like them. And now that they've brought them all together, it's like. it's the feeling that you get when you are around a dinner table and you're like, I like all these people. Like, and that's to me where I think. the base of this franchise is family. And I mean, and obviously it's in the title of the book, but, but like those dinner or those barbecue scenes where the Corona is always ice cold.

if you don't have those in the movie, you don't know the formula of the film. Exactly. And I think that's been the dangling carrot of every single one of the films since I think six has been like, you never know. They're going to go back and ground it to the street.

of California again and whether they do or not in the in you know the next or hopefully final installment I want to get to that in a second but like having that element in it it no matter where the movie goes, submarines coming out of the ocean, fucking Fierros in space, catapulting a car from one end of a cliff to another, AI cars, all of it.

It still makes you feel like if they can compile everyone again together to have those family moments, it still feels like it's part of us. Completely. Yeah. And you can read into that. And it's also because. This is the longest running series. It's 25 years old this year, which is crazy. But it's also one of the longest running series that hasn't rebooted itself or recast itself.

How many Spider-Mans have we had now? Or even taking a long break. James Bond. No, it's been very consistent. But you do not recast Dom Toretto. And because of that, we followed Vin and we followed Dom and they're twinned and we're invested in where this is all going. Now, speaking of that, though, these characters. That over the course of the series, we all feel like we know we're all part of the family. We, you know, we care. But in real life, I got to be careful there because I don't know.

Anybody, anybody in this cast personally. but you hear things and this one won't come to set until that one does first because they need to look more important. This one's got to come in on a helicopter. This one needs the bigger trailer. These two don't actually talk to each other. Yes. The fight compromises, all that stuff. How have, in your opinion, have the keepers of this franchise, even though that stuff has gotten out, been able to keep audiences enjoying it?

especially when you look at these last, we'll say 10 years, it hasn't fully been 10 years yet, but about 10 years, nine years when there was this sort of reckoning on people's behavior, especially in entertainment. If you were. a dick if you made a joke that someone said they were offended by you lost everything your career it's it's gotten

It's not as bad now. But in Grant, there were some people who were outright monsters who deserved to have everything taken away from them for what they did to other people. But this series is notorious for... divas and attitudes i mean god the rock wouldn't even come back because he hated vin so much and vin didn't like him and then they're swiping at each other social media

Did anybody speak to that, like how they wrangle that in? Oh, yeah. There's a lot of discussion about that. This is why I can't wait to read it. It's tricky because while, yeah, behavior was bad, it wasn't... you know, on a monster. One of them was drinking a lot too on set, right? Did that come out? That didn't come up. We'll talk after we, after we'll do this. Not one of the main mains. Okay. But one of the.

Okay. I didn't hear that story. So I'm interested. I don't want to start rumors if it's not true. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, the lateness was a perennial thing on Vin's behalf. If you've ever been on a set. Like when you would chronicle these moments where they would just play a game of cricket during the day. I would be dying. I'd blow my own head off. There were several people who said.

And these are experienced guys who worked on movies for decades. Like, I've never wasted as much time waiting. to shoot a scene I don't understand the psychology of the amount of money that's going out the window every minute like they're losing tens of thousands of dollars like as these things go on and yeah it was ridiculous but at the same time and that's kind of speaks to why like you aren't able to recast these films because

you know, VIN is fast and fast is VIN. So you kind of have to like figure out a way forward. Flowers die in three days. Matching underwear from MeUndies? That's a gift that lasts. MeUndies creates matching prints for couples and friends. Same adorable designs and different cuts for each of you. all made from their signature ultramodal fabric that feels impossibly soft.

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Now, there could be something where, again, this isn't based on anything, but like the lead of this thing that has now grossed trillions of dollars like around the world did not get. what they were supposed to get and is now suing the studio and there needs to be an audit and i mean it's the same old story with everybody

So maybe that's why they're doing it is to make a point. You can't make this movie without me. You're going to treat me like this. Watch. So I'm going to keep doing this until you fucking do the right thing. And maybe that's what's going on there. But. How, why do you think it is with a cast like this? Cause it's an ensemble. Like, and.

But how it became so toxic between them, was it because of anger? This one's getting more and I'm worth that, too. Is that what you think it is? I think it is like kind of an age old ego. battle of egos, battle of Hollywood egos. But when you're getting paid that much. It doesn't matter. So I kind of position it as like for the Vin Dwayne thing.

I kind of think they're the Stallone and Schwarzenegger of today. They are. And Vin is very much in the Stallone mode. He's like the tortured artist. Stallone was a painter. I think a lot of people forget that Vin's a writer. Vin's a writer. He wrote his directorial debut. He wrote the short film that got Spielberg's attention. Do you remember the ad that they put out for Timex? This was around the time of Saving Private Ryan where he was...

Indie guy that just kind of infiltrated the Hollywood scene. And they had him. It was like a full page ad of him touting a watch. And he's going like. And I'm like, who the fuck is this guy? And then two years later, he has pitch black in Iron Giant. I'm going to have to go back and find this watch. You've got to find that picture. It's fucking hilarious. But all anyone knew him from was...

The short film that he made. Iron Giant. Well, this was before that. This was Saving Private Ryan. Saving Private Ryan. That was it. It was weird. So... So, yeah, so he was like, he wrote himself in, like, he was a hustler. Like, he was a New York guy. He hustled his way in. He came from a very artistic background. You know, his stepfather was like a theater teacher, a theater instructor. He would volunteer at theaters after school.

And I feel like that has bled into like, this is my destiny. Like I need to control the artistic visions of everything. So it's led to a lot of micromanaging. It's led to a lot of diva-ish behavior because of that. inflated sense of self, which you need as a movie star to begin with. But if you kind of add in all that kind of, actually, I'm also a tortured artist kind of thing element to it. There's that.

Then the fact that you get him paired into the same space as The Rock, who is very much, I feel, in the Schwarzenegger mode. He's the cocky charmer. He wants everybody to be happy. He wants to just be a four-quadrant machine. right yeah and he will go out of your way out of his way on a set to like oh like your babysitters

dog sitter's cousin is a WWE fan. Get her on the phone. I'll talk to her for like 10 minutes. Like he wants to prove, you know, be that guy. And Vin is meanwhile kind of stewing in his trailer and like figuring out like how to like tweak every line to be just so. And especially once he got producer powers, starting with four, that's when it really kind of took off, right? So why do you think it is that we as an audience, even knowing that stuff, don't care?

Like we're still there to go see the next one. We're still there to cheer it on. And we just let that go. I think we, we let it go, but maybe there's a not so subliminal element of like, that's kind of why we go too. And I feel. you know, that was kind of crystallized in eight for better or for worse because the tensions of what those two guys were having off screen was now the plot. on screen. And we want to see the fireworks about it. And because it's like...

OK, as an audience member, you're like, OK, that sounds pretty bad having to wait around for a while and like all this divish behavior. But it was like, you know what? I didn't work on the movie. I just want to see the fun movie. And it's not like the guy was like, you know.

physically abusing people or something like that. It's not something that could be considered criminal behavior. So you kind of like, Oh, that's just Hollywood being Hollywood. But it's, that's, it's some of the allure that like, There's been a lot of talk in the last couple of years about the death of the movie star. Right. And how people have...

gone for decades have gone to the movies, not for the movie itself, but to see those movie stars. And sometimes whether it's back then, we didn't know as much about people though. We knew what 60 Minutes would show us or People Magazine, and that was all very controlled. There was no TMZ cycle. No social media. There was no social with the stars giving a peek.

into their lives but it is telling though that to look back and correct me if I'm wrong but like it feels like you know with the unfortunate passing of Paul and how that fueled no pun you know people's interest in seeing 7 because like partially because of that you know and it's almost unfortunate that 8 9 and X had to kind of come after that and

I don't know I remember this is before I read the book I remember feeling like with eight all of that drama between Dwayne and Vin felt like well fuck how are we going to like top a death in the family to get people in there. let's, there was a moment in the book where you address how Vin was saying like, man, that's tough love. I had to get Dwayne to a place where,

you know, his character was going to be like in cahoots with my character and that, that tension, that was all, that was method. That was like William Friedkin. Manufactured method. That's William Friedkin slapping a priest in the face before, you know, crying in The Exorcist. That's how you have to deal with it. And whether or not that was true, it did feel like...

it was that movie star quality that like gets people's butts in seats sometimes, not just the IP, not just the, you know, the, the big blockbuster kind of histronics that you're used to seeing. And. you know, May or December or whatever it was, you know, we, we got to give people something to watch and then all the little stories in between push them into the theater a little bit more. Of course. Cause like, that's exactly it. Like the.

morbid curiosity of how they were going to handle Paul's death is what drew, it was what drove seven to be the biggest film in the franchise by a large degree. And then it was the same with eight, like the tensions of the Instagram post between calling Vin out. That's what led people to eight more. I would say so. Yeah. And then, you know, cause I remember when the trailers for nine were coming out.

And this was in the middle of the pandemic and people like, because that series for like a generation meant going to the movies. It was tantamount to the experience of going to the movies to see this family again. It was like going to see relatives in a way. And then it gets taken away from us.

because of something that we, none of us had control over. But I remember every single time a trailer would come out, you know, I've known Jen Yamato for years. So when the justice for Han thing came out and that like people were gravitating towards that cause we didn't have much else. And we're like, well,

fuck yeah, that makes total sense. I'll never forget when that trailer came out and when Justice for Han came on at the end. I know, I know. Like, you know, we weren't in a theater, so we couldn't see what that reaction was like. But I remember when the trailer hit and then... Fucking Twitter went nuts for that. That was wild. Well, it was. I remember nine was particularly. And I think this is why I also had like a.

kind of bad reaction to the space thing because when Nine opened in Toronto, it actually didn't open in Toronto because our theaters were still closed. The only theaters that were open in Canada at that point were I think in Quebec. So I had a half-baked plan to drive to Quebec to see this movie, but the only way I saw it initially was on this screener copy that Universal gave me.

That was like watermarked to hell. I could not see a single thing that didn't have like my name plastered in five corners. I was like, well, this is not the ideal way to watch any movie. Certainly not.

A fast movie. And then when theaters finally opened, I think maybe about a month and a half later in severely limited fashion, yeah, I went... F9 was the first movie I beelined to, and everybody in Toronto, and in the film circle at least there, was at that same screen, that Friday night, opening night.

opening night screening of F9 and we're like, yeah, it's back. We're doing it. Movies are back. Then they, you know, then they weren't back again for a little bit. And I don't even remember. I've blocked out so much of the ups and downs of that, but.

Yeah, it was very much a reunion, that family reunion sensibility. All right. Well, we do have some questions from our audience. So we want to make sure we get to these and everyone's second favorite part of the movie crypt. Viewer mail. All right. First question comes from Eric. Adam, Joe, Barry, and maybe Arwen.

Uh, Arwen is actually at home again today. Uh, Eric from Worcester here. I actually just ordered the book. So probably by the time I'm listening to the podcast, I'll also be reading the book. Any fun story that there just wasn't a place for in the book. I love watching these. movies even if afterwards it feels like I'm driving my car 10 to 20 miles fast. There's so many stuff there.

Couldn't fit into the book. Logistically, couldn't fit into the book. How do you make that decision? Did it have to be a certain page count or less? No. Initially, the contract was, I think, for like 80,000 words. And then I just like... rammed past that. My editor was basically like, make it as long as it needs to be, like, however the story fits. But there were some parts I was like...

this is a little too like geeky and maybe I'm just writing it so I can write it and enjoy it. And like, nobody else will be interested. So there, I don't know. It was like a lot of balancing act in that way. There was a lot of stuff that I simply could not get. Like double or triple sourced. Like there's a lot of Rashomon kind of remembrances. Let's talk about that. How do you. As a journalist. So one person tells you. And then.

I remember hearing she said that to him and everyone was like, whoa, now you need to try to find someone else who was there who can back that up. Essentially. Or yeah, it gets some kind of like, okay, that makes sense contextually. And this is not some. person like totally either misremembering or feeding misinformation for whatever purpose you know people's memories are funny things especially when you're talking about

like parts one, part two, part three, which are two decades old now, like plus. So that was the trigger part. So there's, there was one like story from F eight, which is one of the more recent ones that was just. It involved like smoke alarms and the president of Universal Studios on the set and nobody could find somebody and somebody else couldn't find somebody else. And it was like one of the most expensive scenes of the movie.

It was an amazing story with twists and turns that could have been a whole chapter unto itself. But I just like I could not journalistically. feel good about that from the place that I had it so there's and there's I don't know there's probably like half a dozen at least other instances of that one is one story that was very verifiable and very funny but just didn't make sense in the book, and maybe he's listening to this, is Peter Brown, who's one of the

sound guys on it and the sound guys I wanted to give them their own chapter and I did actually write like a bonus chapter about it that would have been so cool because like no one ever gets to talk about the the sound guys yeah and they are very like they go out and they find all those specific cars and make sure that car sounds is the sound of the, like,

Because they know that there's going to be people who are like, that is not the sound of an Acura from that era. Exactly, exactly. And there was one funny thing. He had the final sounds that he needed for, I think maybe it was five. and the post-production delivery process is like an incredibly crunched thing, and they were up against the deadline. He just finally got an hour or two to get to the studio to give it, and he was going like he...

left his house at like five in the morning to do it. And then he stumbled into like this police carjacking raid and his car was... carjacked and he lost and the stuff was in the car and then the cops had to go chase the car together it was like this whole amazing thing but it was Yeah, I just couldn't find a good place for it. Anyway, so there's real-life car theft behind and car street racing behind the actual production. I think you just set yourself up.

to have to be writing a sequel to this book because everyone listening is going to be like, I need to know more of that stuff. All right, this is from Ken. As bombastic as the Fast and Furious films became over time, what influence of the action and other aspects do you see in, say, modern superhero films and cinema in general?

I mean, I think that there's a lot of visual language that the Fast Films invented that has been appropriated into other... Like, I mean, the whole... rx7 engine fly through sequence from the first movie i remember when joseph khan did that another guest on the show yeah i remember when he did that and then seeing it in the in the movie i'm like someone watched that joseph khan video oh yeah yeah so

I, I, I'm friends with Joseph and we, Joseph and we just had lunch the other day and, uh, yeah, he's of course, he's the book and he's great. He's great. And yeah, he was, he had some funny things to say about that. I'm sure, but he does not hold back in what he has to say. No,

and that's the that's unfiltered it's the best yeah um but you know that uh you know pick a blockbuster and that's been uh in there somehow the superhero so the transformer stuff notorious i think for doing stuff like that um So, yeah, everybody's kind of taken that bombast. But I think and there's a lot of debate about this in the fast community, but the practicality.

of the car chases and the crashes, at least in like the Lynn films, certainly was like something that I feel was amazing, but yet hadn't, hasn't been. taken up by the other, uh, you know, big mega franchises in like a weird way. Cause why do it practically if you can just do it in a computer? Exactly. But like the great thing about, especially in fast five and fast six is like all that stuff, all that stuff, the car.

And the crashes are practical in camera stuff because the human eye registers all that debris. And like, just think about the bus crash. That opens five, right? That is insane. The most flips in a film ever, right? The most flips, yeah, yeah. And I talked with the driver there, Corey Eubanks. He drove Bumblebee. He's a legendary guy.

And to hear what they needed to do to do that. And the fact that other films don't go that measure is disappointing. The only one from the superhero era I can remember is... The second Captain America. In Winter Soldier. Winter Soldier. In that when Samuel L. Jackson's car is ambushed by the Hydra guys on the streets of Washington. And that's because that sequence was.

second unit directed by Spiro Rosados, who did all the fast films. Do you know where, so sorry, I had to mention this. Spiro got his start and I wish that it was, I was like hoping that it would be mentioned in the book, but Bill Lustig. hired him for the Maniac Cop movies. Oh, yeah, yeah. Have you ever seen Maniac Cop 2 and 3? Yes, yes. Some of the best fucking stunts. The truck going off into the water? Yeah. And that's Spiro who's almost getting hit. That's him. I mean, so, yeah.

So I really I'm so glad that you highlighted him as much as you did in the book Another yeah one of the reasons like that I wanted to write the book was to give all the second unit people their, their due. Cause they are, they are there. That's the glue. Yeah. Tying it all together. And I,

it was so great to meet Spiro and to listen to all his stories. We talked maniac. We talked everything. I would have like, I got, I tried to get as much of his like PM entertainment stuff in there. And it was, yeah, he's, he's the man. He's the man. This is from Darren. I remember seeing the first one in theaters with my best friend who passed in 2020. I'll always remember that experience. Do Adam and Joe have any personal favorites?

One, five, and the heart-wrenching part seven. I'm new to the podcast. It's definitely getting me through a rough time. Thanks for all your good work, guys. Thank you, Darren. And sorry you're going through a tough time. I think... As far as like a personal favorite, mine's still going to be the first one because I didn't want to see it. I didn't know what it was. I was on drugs and it was awesome. I mean, all good qualifiers. I can easily say it's one, five, three.

seven and now 10 because you're chronicling of, cause I was always a Louis letty fan. I didn't realize like, cause I'd never met him before. He comes from the Luc Besson school of that Europa Corps transporter and everything. And I always had a weird inkling that... the transporter was queer and and but like you know him talking about it to me you know kind of confirm it a little bit more like i knew it i fucking knew it's i was always gatham for statham god damn it and then that's confirmed but

it was the story of that. I don't want to give too much away, but the, the scene that was originally considered a deleted scene for X that ended up because of Langley saying that fucking scene is great. The robes, the, the, The fact that Dante was so queer coded, I thought was such a wonderful addition to it. Cause look, 10 is all practically an animated film. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But.

there's something about it that made me like enjoy. Once you let go of all physics, basically, especially towards the ending. And it's been, I hate to say it, but like it, for me, it was, it was a while since. The Fast series had a real gregarious, bombastic villain that felt like he could go toe-to-toe with Vin in a way that I don't think he was expecting. And Dante was that for me.

That's what made me enjoy Fast X so much was here's a guy who gives no fucks at all that will fuck with a fucking, will paint the toenails of a corpse. What the fuck? And I think we needed that. For me, it would be 1, 5, 3, 3 because of drift racing. I drift raced in Tokyo. I was in the cars with them. And the way that Lynn captured that was perfect.

even down to that CG shot. It was one of the first CG shots of the series where it just barely grazes the side of a car in that parking lot. I was like, that's it. That's fucking drift racing. They fucking nailed it. And then from there... X is great. But yeah, that's my ranking. I'm going to abbreviate these next two. Sorry. Just because we're starting to run out of time here. This is from Saturday Night. How do you view the expansion of the franchise over the years?

particularly as we approach the fifth installment? And what would you like to see for the future of the franchise? I think in terms of the future, Are they doing a Jurassic Park crossover? This has come up so many times. I don't think that's going to happen. It could. It could. Now that dinosaurs exist. They're in the real world. Yeah. But then we, how come?

Nobody in the fast movies have ever talked about the dinosaurs. But I don't know. We don't need to go with the realistic plot points. A good writer could come up with a reason for that in two seconds. You're right. You're right. I... My personal view is I don't want dinosaurs. I want it scaled back. I think there's a good contingent in the fan community that wants...

Back to the streets of LA. But do you think that that's hard to do once the cat's out of the bag? Because it's not going to feel as spectacly as what they've been doing. I think they can still do spectacle. And I think they can still blow up a... building, you know, blow up several, build a whole city block. We've seen that. Yeah. We need something more. We need something more, but maybe the something more is something that we already had, but we kind of lost a little bit, which is just more.

character scenes more family scenes like make it i know it's tough i know it's yeah we debate this all the time but especially as as people who have directed sequels to stuff you You can never win because that original audience who loved whatever the first one of that thing was, it's never going to be like that again. It might be super exciting to get to spend time with those characters again and see the next chapter and all that. But usually.

if if you change it too much it's not what they remember so they don't really like it but if you do too much of the same well it's just like the other one what was the point so it's it's it's hard it's hard to win but with fast and furious they've gotten So fast and so furious.

I don't know how you take your foot off the pedal now and expect the audience to be cool with it. Yeah. The diehards would be like, Oh man, that reminded me of how this started. That was fucking awesome. Yeah. Yeah. But everyone who cheered for them to go into. and a car was like, what the fuck? Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, they have, and it goes against kind of the reason why I do love the films is because they do that tripling down each.

time like it's always bigger bigger bigger bigger better at the same time they've like reached that point where if they don't introduce some kind of supernatural elements or a time travel or dinosaurs dinosaurs man maybe like rope in like another like the Bourne franchise or something like that, like, you know, make it, if it's so tricky, it's so tricky onto whatever Island they're on, the dinosaurs are on now.

There's always a new island. That's the thing I hate about this. There was another island. A secret, secret research pup. And the thing in as many Jurassic Park movies as they make, I will be there for all of them because as long as the dinosaurs look. and sound cool, I'm happy.

But if they could mix those two, it would be the biggest movie ever. Oh, yeah. No, no. And then the next fast movie, you just need a throwaway line of, oh, like the time we went to that island to fight the dinosaurs. And then Vin Diesel goes. That was a mistake. Done. And everyone will laugh and clap, but they'll still get to see cars and dinosaurs. And okay, shit. Sorry. Final questions from Roger. Sorry, Roger. I have to abbreviate this. Oh, do you happen to know how many times the word...

Family is used across all the movies. Is that in the book? No. You know, that's something I should have kept track, but I probably would have lost my mind. Roger probably knows. No, Roger's only seen the first one. I will say it's funny. The first... movie the word family I believe is only uttered once or twice very infrequently and the first time it is uttered

is I think like 45, 50 minutes into the movie and it's by Ted Levine's character, the detective. Oh, I love Ted Levine. He's like, Brian, you can't, this family, you can't trust them or something like that. And that's pretty much it. And then after that, he tucks his dick between his legs. And then, yeah.

Then Ted Levine goes away. I would love to have Ted Levine back in the franchise. He didn't die in the first one. No, he didn't die. He'd be a dinosaur trainer in the next one. Bring him the fuck back. They brought back his FBI boss for Too Fast and Furious, but not...

Not poor old Ted. I was also just re-watching Heat last night and he's basically playing the same character. And he's the same fucking character. Don't you want to see Vin Diesel walk up to a velociraptor? These things that we were told are deadlier than the T-Rex in the first one. But all you got to do is hold out your hand and they'll do whatever you want. Yeah. So he walks up and he's like, drive. And the velociraptors get behind the wheel.

I'm calling Universal right after this. You're edging me towards reconsidering my opinion. Does Blue live like zero to 60 and a quarter mile? Does he live mile to mile? Blue's family. I want to... as we're wrapping things up, I do want to ask, cause this was one of the first questions I had. We haven't, it feels better towards the end is, you know,

you leave the book very much how the series has left things where it's kind of undecided. We're in a TBD kind of, um, moment in time where we you know the way that vin was touting that this was going to be a three-parter you know like finale that there was going to be another chapter the end of x is leaving things very much open um but due to certain circumstances behind the scenes, we don't know if we're gonna get one.

Why now with the book would you was there ever a consideration to hold off until there was talk of because usually people wait until the whole series is done to be able to look back and then the follow up to that is would you ever. consider going and doing like uh like an expanded edition of the book once the once hopefully

Knock on wood. I'm knocking on it now. Remember something? Don't knock the table while we're recording. This was in context. Not you going like, everything I say, O-E-T, you know. E-T.

See? Goddamn. So why now and would you... That one wasn't in context. Or would you consider doing an expanded version once that film comes out? Well, I'll say when I started... thinking about it or pitching it was um like i started the proposal in the fall of 2023 which is okay right after fast x came out so i was like if i can get this going at a certain time i'll be able to like knowing that they take

so many years between sequels, like, they're very consistent. I was like, okay, then I can, now that the, you know, theaters are open again, like, I can hit, I can get it out in time for the sequel. Yeah. It'd be perfect. And then, of course... that didn't happen. And I was like, and I tried, you know, and then I had to kind of, it was a tricky thing. Like I used the prologue and the epilogue to address that tenuousness. So that, that was kind of.

why I wrote it. Cause I did think that there was something coming cause it ended on a literal cliffhanger. Um, and what will come next? And well, I, do an expanded edition yeah i mean i'd love to of course yeah i mean that would be great is there another franchise though that you're like if i'm going to do another one of these i want to move over to that one um there is another part there is another semi-franchise that i

have my eyes on that I think is ripe for book material that has not really been dissected. But as the guy who wrote the book on the Fast and the Furious franchise, I would imagine anyone else you go to will be like, well, fuck yeah. Yeah. Let's see. Do it. I hope so. You know, that's the dream. That's the dream. But yeah, I mean, I'd love to write whatever comes next. And I do sincerely think something will come next.

What I hope won't come next and what Vin has been very vocal about in his idea of coming next is bringing back Brian. That's scary. It's very scary. Because he announced it, too. He announced it. He was at a Fuel Fest event back, I think, in the summer. And he's a typical kind of boasting. He's like, Universal wants three things. Or no, Universal wants another one. And I said, on three conditions.

Back to the streets of L.A. Another condition I can't remember right now. And Brian O'Connor is back. And the crowd, of course, like, you know, in the moment you're, you know, you get excited. But it is scary to think that like back when seven came out and they were. killing themselves to make Brian as present and un-VFX-able as possible that now it's a few, like... That's a few commands in Grok. A few clicks of the, yeah, Grok could do it. And it's scary. And I think, I really think.

the fan community is united against that idea i hope we've kind of tolerated him being on the margins and like in f9 the skyline pulling up to the house and you know i think it was a fast X where there was like a phone call where I didn't hear him, but no one wants to see a fully funk, like a character. Not yet. Not yet. Not ever. No, it's going to get there. I'm telling you. In a generation, maybe. For AI, I'm just being realistic. I wish it wasn't a thing in what we do, but it...

Like it's getting so good so fast. And sadly, the majority of the world who watches these things, I don't think they care how it was done. It's was that fun to watch? Did it look good? And it's a tool. It's going to get there. I just, as somebody who just hopes for the best for everyone, AI better cure disease pretty fucking fast.

Because that's what everyone was sold on. This is going to be able to develop things at lightning speeds and it's going to move everything ahead. Cool. Cure dementia. Cure Alzheimer's. I don't know, man. I think AI is smart enough to go... why the fuck do we still have people around? But that's the fear right now. But remember when computers became...

like in the mainstream and people are like, it's going to replace everyone. Computers will do everything now and no one will have jobs anymore and we're all going to die. AI is a little scarier in terms of the intelligence behind it and that it's just... released upon the world like go get them everybody like not regulated at all but we have to wait and see what's going to happen and try to I don't know I don't know I have my wife calls me a Luddite

because I'm so vehemently anti-AI. I am too in my personal life when I see stuff. Here's what I find the most heartbreaking about. Well, two things. One, and I have mentioned this before, what scares me, and I'm not even a parent yet, but can you imagine having a teenager in high school? And some other kid makes AI porn of them. Defakes of them and puts it out everywhere. I think we're like a week away from that happening. It's already happening. It's already happening. And they're like...

That I think that's why we do need some regulations on this. But then the other thing that I don't know, that just sort of scares me is.

The only reason I still have social media, because I don't really do anything with it at the moment, the next time I have something to promote, I'll come on there for a few months and then... probably leave again i just can't it's accessible and i can't stand it even the people who say things i agree with i still don't i don't need you screaming it at me the whole fucking just fuck off like read a book play a video game jerk off do anything other than that

But the one reason I kept going back was cute animal videos. And now 50% of them aren't real. All those dancing dog videos that I've seen in the last two weeks. And there's plenty that are not intended to necessarily seem real. And like they're obviously fake. Wait, those aren't real? But then there's like the night vision ones of a raccoon doing something. And it bears a lot of animal attacks on people.

letters yeah and then and then you see all the comments is like is this ai is this ai is this ai and it's ruined cute animal videos because it to me if it isn't an animal actually did that I don't care. I don't need to see this. So that's why, like, if that's not actually Paul, why do I care? And I agree with you that there's a lot of people who probably would not...

take that into consideration. I think the hardcore, like the people who've been following this series since the beginning... would and do and treat Paul in the most like respectful kind of iconic way and they would feel that would be disrespect but I don't know you know who knows who knows what's going to happen I don't want to see that happen but I'm not and charge. All right. Well, where can people...

follow you? Are you on social media? Where can they find out more? After just saying he was a Luddite, it's like, where can people stalk you? You can write me a letter to P.O. Box. No, I mean, I'm a Luddite. I will do all the social media because I... I'm in total promotion mode and, you know, so I am on. Twitter at Hertzberry. I am on Instagram at also Hertzberry or Barry Hertz. Some combination of my name will get you there on Twitter, on Instagram, on Blue Sky, on Letterboxd.

on Facebook. Letterboxd, eh? Yeah, yeah. If your top four aren't fucking Fast and Furious movies, I'm calling bullshit right now. Don't look me up. And the book is available right now in stores, online. People can get the book. The book is available anywhere you buy your books.

books where does the book benefit you the most for people to buy anywhere it doesn't matter like even as long as it goes to the publisher i'm happy so am you could do if you're an amazon person do amazon if you are a brick and mortar person please support your local brick and mortar independent bookseller. If you are an audiobook person, however you listen, e-books, however you get it, I'd just love you to get it. Oh, let's see here. Barry Hertz on Letterboxd is top four. Videodrome.

Excellent. The Master. I've got to revisit The Master. What did you think of One Battle After Another? I loved it. My favorite film of the year. Another favorite movie of yours, Step Brothers. Excellent. Such a good fucking movie. Step Brothers. I never saw that one coming. That would be the movie I would write, except I know there's a book in the works about that whole era of Judd Apatow.

And as soon as I saw that book announcement, I was like, son of a bitch. And then obviously Boogie Nights, excellent. Not a fast movie in the front. The problem with Letterboxd is it's only four. It's only four titles. If there was a fifth title, Fast Five would be up there. Good choice. Excellent. All right, Adam, where can people find you?

At Adam underscore FN underscore green on Instagram. This year, I think I'm going to end up being more active on there out of necessity. And you can find me at the Joe Lynch. All right. Let's see. Barry, thank you so much for doing this. Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. And your very busy L.A. schedule, by the way. Yes. Congratulations. Happy to make time. I'm happy to come to the cave here. This is amazing. I know people can't listen. You started something that was

so daunting you saw it through you finished it it's out it's in people's hands now congratulations thank you that's awesome wait and before uh we let you go i have to i'm gonna turn the screen over because i found that vin diesel ad Look how fucking... Oh, my God. Look how young she had hair. And you know what? Your facial... You nailed it. You nailed that smile. Because the way it says Vin Diesel, director...

actor, screenwriter. See, director first. And the quote is, they say to make a film you need money and time. It's amazing what you can do with just the time. And family. Timex. God bless him. Thank you so much, Barry. I really appreciate it. Thank you. This was a blast. And we will see all of you next week with another edition of The Movie Crypt with Adam and family. Ride or die, remember? It's the movie, Krails!