Ep 657: Ben Leonberg

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And welcome to the final episode of The Movie Crypt for 2025. I am Adam Green. I am Joe Lynch. And... Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. This episode is going to run in between the two. And this one, you know, you hear us say a lot. This is a long time coming. Maybe not. as long as other people were highly anticipated but highly anticipated originally we were supposed to record this one was it like last august or something when the movie was coming out theatrically

But we finally got filmmaker Ben Lienberg on. Of course, if you haven't already seen it, you've heard of his movie, Good Boy, starring his dog, Indy. It is currently available on Shudder. And as you'll hear in this conversation,

conversation there is a physical media release on the way so uh it's it really is if you want to watch a horror movie like over the holidays i think this is a good one even maybe for the family unless you have kids that are too young and will definitely this is a classic example of a gateway movie

You know, there's a couple adult themes. There's a little bit of, you know, there's some drug addiction stuff that gets tackled. Is there? Because that's what I thought. I think he's suffering from an ailment. Yeah, it's different. Other than those slight adult themes. I mean, who doesn't like endear to a dog in peril? You know, like it's just like kids. You put kids in peril. Everyone, you know, everyone gets interested. You put a dog in peril. Holy shit. You know, all bets are off.

And this movie, since it came out at South by Southwest and has been done theatrical run, it's now on Shudder. It's definitely one of the breakout hits this year that has everybody talking, even all of the awards rumbling. I just got a screener for it that's on my Directors Guild for your consideration. And I got to admit, I was like... Fuck yeah, Ben. That's so cool. Especially for someone's first feature. Although it was a...

A long road to get to this, as you'll hear, especially with how long this movie took to make, but we won't ruin that for you. Two things before we play the conversation. First of all, as we close out this year, fucking thank you, thank you, thank you to all of you who support this show on our Patreon, even...

just giving a dollar a month. You're the reason the show still exists. We love you. We appreciate you. We see you. And it just means so much, whether you did it because you want to support the show or because you're just sick of listening to the public version with. 900 commercials or however many they put in. It means the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that.

Again, if you want to join, it's patreon.com slash themoviecrypt. You get all the episodes commercial free and there's all kinds of other great stuff on there. We hope you'll consider it. And lastly, at the time we're recording this. It's Monday morning, December 15th, 2025, and we're coming off of a weekend filled with tragedy.

None of which we're going to get into here because it's all very fresh and very new. Obviously, concerning our industry, last night, word started to come out that Rob Reiner... Fuck the great Rob Reiner. Fucking misery when Harry met Sally. Stand by me. All in the family. Rob and his wife were murdered in their home.

One of the reasons we don't want to get into this right now is information is still sort of coming out. We don't know what's accurate, what's not. But what a devastating blow to anybody who loves cinema and TV. I mean, the guy...

is one of the legends, one of the legends and what a horrific way to end such an amazing life. For considering for the what 50 years, he's been in our homes on our big screens. in our lives i even i i can't talk about yeah wait so but we did want to acknowledge that uh also over the weekend there was a uh terrorist attack in Sydney, Australia, of all places, where again, at the time we're recording this, 15 people killed, at least 40 injured, if not more.

uh, and a attack on the first night of Hanukkah. Um, and then, uh, the night before that was a mass shooting at Brown university. And the reason we want to bring this up is you might remember I've got two years ago now, three years ago. We every now and then we'll do like a round table episode of the show where we'll have like a few guests on and talk about like, not necessarily.

a movie or movies but like something else that affects this industry whether it is the stalkers that can come with doing this for a living or uh hollywood accounting like our blair witch one But we did one about gun violence, kind of gearing it towards like, where does the responsibility, if any, lie in art? And it was an interesting conversation with Tiffany Shepes and her daughter, Mia.

who was shot at a school shooting in Santa Clarita. Her best friend was killed right next to her. Mia goes to Brown and was, what, a block away from this one. So now that's two. Two.

for me um thank god she's all right uh but it's like 2025 had to give not one but three more fucking punches in the balls uh oh also it just came out right before we started recording today that the FBI and the LA Police Department hopefully foiled a terrorist plot to attack us here in Los Angeles on New Year's Eve, blowing up buildings and stuff.

Um, yeah, uh, the world is, uh, still continues to be on fire. Um, but we gotta, uh, we gotta hope next year will be better. Cause if you, if we can't do that, then. then what's the point? Hopefully we can do better. But this conversation is a great way to end the year. Ben is awesome. Indy is fucking awesome. And the movie is just so fucking cool and we're so glad it exists. So...

From us to you and your families, whether you had the greatest year ever in 2025 or a shit year like a lot of people, we hope it gets better. Keep your head up and try to keep thinking positive even. even when it feels like you can't anymore. Life ebbs and flows, and let's hope the flow is about to get better for everybody. Okay, so our next guest is someone who I'm sure upon the release of his film Good Boy at South by Southwest had pretty much 60% of the filmmaking community going.

Why the fuck didn't I think of that? Every, like, I remember when it premiered every time, every time someone talked about it, it was. oh my god that's so genius why did or well i can tell you why i didn't think i did i had that script in my pocket you know it's because the two things in our guests who are about to bring on uh knows this well having taught film um the two hardest things to work with are kids and pets but in this case

Oh, my God. Did it work out? Yeah. One of the most ambitious films of the year is now turning into one of the most critically claimed films of the year. I like to say that because on my DGA screeners app. good boy popped up and you sit there and you go, it's, I don't know. It's a tough call. One battle after another. Good boy. I don't know. It's, it's a bit of a balance. Hey, a lot easier to give direction to Leonardo DiCaprio than it is to Indy the dog.

Maybe. I don't know. We're going to find out with filmmaker Ben Lienberg. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me, dude. Congratulations on everything thus far. It's. It's rare that you get to see a movie that truly gets embraced by, it feels like everyone, and maybe it's the charms of indie. Maybe it's just the fact that, you know, like it's such a...

Simple idea told so exquisitely, but congratulations on everything. And it's so nice to also see how people are either, you know, like I had a lot of friends who saw it in the theater, but now it's like the perfect movie for. for Christmas because you know, you can't not everyone who doesn't love dogs. Well, that's the hardest thing with any horror movie is how do you in a short amount of time make people care about these characters? Yeah.

especially when in most cases in a horror movie, you know, you're there to see these people die or go through something horrific. But when you introduce a dog, i mean unless you're like a heartless piece of you're immediately going to be like oh my god i love that talk but you're right though like that was like those and it was also not just uh rules of

who not to work with. It was also at least the way that when we were growing up, you didn't kill dogs and you didn't kill kids. And when you put those two, when you start threatening those two, especially in a horror movie. The stakes are immediately raised. That was my favorite thing when the trailer for this dropped was immediately so many of the comments were like, somebody told me if the dog lives or dies. I'm not seeing it if the dog dies. I'm not seeing it.

But anyway, let's start at the beginning though, Ben. When did you know this was going to be your path? This is what you wanted to do for a career and not just a hobby. Oh, man. So really, at the beginning, I mean, I grew up making films on VHS tape, making films, biggest air quotes in the world.

With my brother and my cousins and my friends and, you know, like the Boy Scout troop together, making things in people's backyards and retention basins. Like, that's what I did. You know, I did not think this could be a career. Filmmaking wasn't something that was like... taught at my high school or really even college um but it's those it's that ambition that isn't

career driven you know like like the second you said two vc like the the old vcr technique i just sat there and went i knew exactly the the three the yellow the red uh the white cords that you connect into each other and the totally the art of the record pause because people thought like because i i would do the same thing where i would put the two vcrs together

And I would hook up my stereo so that I could actually like put music onto clips of movies. You got more advanced than I did. That's smart. Yeah. Well, no, it wasn't smart. I was just a dork going like, I wonder if Lucy in the sky with diamonds. would go well with richard stanley's hardware and then do it and then people would go you're a nerd you know yeah but i mean it's funny

It's not really that learning how to make films or make moving pictures, to put it as broadly as possible, on a VCR doing that, again, the three-color cable system. There's not a ton of transferable skills from that to eventual... real filmmaking but there is something to the idea of learning how to do an edit in camera yeah um which actually was really applicable to how i made good boy working with a dog who was a huge x factor you know when this is very

jumping into the weeds of making the film but identifying hey the dog just did something great that was either planned or unplanned and now we need to embrace that and that needs to be our guide from shot a to shot b to so on and so forth. That kind of is how you would make films as an edit in camera on old school tape. Yeah.

To get back to your question of like, when did I realize I wanted to do this? I was always in love with movies. It was something I always wished I could do. I was always thinking about movies, going to see them, trying to consume as much as I could about how you would actually make them.

My real segue into how do I do this started with how do I pay the rent and make art, essentially? Came from not from a film education, but more a background with long distance running. I was a cross country athlete in college and I was able to dovetail the few film classes I had taken. with that experience to make athletic apparel ads for Adidas and Reebok. So that was the first, my first entree into, you know, making moving pictures.

was through advertising and athletic apparel advertising at that. And then from there, I kind of just grew my skills. I started very small, making small one-man band style videos that would just go online. It got bigger. Eventually, I pursued an MFA to really take an actual screenwriting and directing class and kind of very slowly, gradually just built my skills, worked in all kinds of different commercial video.

And the real kind of break point of, like, I want to make feature films, which was always the goal, was getting to a point where I felt secure enough in what I knew how to do, both technically and creatively, to try and make Good Boy. Which, as you said at the top, a lot of that is... There's a lot of things about the film which are both, you know, intuitively make sense that people think about.

think, hear the idea of the film and say, oh, that's such a great idea. People love dogs. Everyone's familiar with the trope of the dog in the horror movie. But then when you think about the practical ramifications of it, they frequently say, oh, but it's also impossible. Just because working with animals is so challenging. Yeah. Those, the brands that you mentioned, like starting out in advertising.

How did that happen? Like, how did you get, cause those are national bands. I started in advertising as well, but I was doing commercial local cable ads and I only really wanted the job cause it gave me access to equipment so I could start making my own stuff. but like those are huge well-known brands how did how did that happen uh so keep in mind i was i was part of the in-house team which is a much smaller production you know company

A lot of things aligned at the right time. So when I was graduating undergraduate college, that's when the 5D was first coming out. Yeah. Sorry, I got really technical there for a second. We love this shit because all I'll do all day is go, which whip pan did you prefer? Was it the 5D or the 7D? Remember how it would have that weird diagonal?

Oh my gosh, terrible roll. Yeah, the rolling shutter was so bad. Every time you do it. Critical focus on a 7D, how that would, but yeah. But at the same time, it... did just like we we talk about the dvx 100 all the time and how that like oh my god you're talking about one of the first camera i love that camera i mean i don't know all right you ready it was the greatest but i that i have such fond memories of that camera i love that believe what it looked like you're like

looks like film maybe not film but yeah for a long time we had the XL1 which the only thing that was good about the XL1 was the fact that you could hold the top with the handle and everything and all your Sam Raimi you got all those evil dead shots but it only had 30p where 24

he was like i when i first moved out to la i put myself immediately on a waiting list for the dvx and i was the first person in la to get it i got so much fucking work off of that thing it was amazing because people would go wait how did

how did you do that how did you get film and you're like fooled you suckers you know but it but it did It allowed us until the 5D or until the SLR cameras came out, it did allow us to step a little bit closer into the illusion of cinema because people are still, they still know.

even though like you know i use my mom for example my mom's like i don't know why it looks like that but i just i like the way it looks like that it looks very uh yes very movie like and the second that you can have access to that and 5d and 70 for that moment like i remember when fincher put like a test like a thing out on the 5d where he was like shooting leonardo dicaprio and immediately people went well there you go there it is you know you can do it on a prosumer level totally

um so to get to your question of how did i like kind of land a job with adidas and reebok so it was it was several things converging all at once i had gotten in really early i wasn't didn't have one of the first but

You know, a friend of mine had gotten a 5D Mark II and I was just like, holy shit, I can use this, you know, make my own movies better. The price was that, like, it was a huge investment for me at the time. I was like 22 years old to buy one, but got it, immediately started getting work with it.

You know, this is started filming commercials for stores in the town I was living in, like jewelry stores, the taco truck, like, you know, little tiny commercials that would mostly just go online, go without with like an email newsletter.

that kind of thing. So I had this very small body of work. And then through the school I had attended, which was in Massachusetts, Reebok and Adidas are headquartered in outside of Boston, there was kind of like a door open to just like general internships there. They knew I knew how to make movies. I specifically knew how to use these new cameras that they were kind of kicking the tires on. Could we make higher quality stuff in-house?

which is not going to go necessarily on TV. It might just play on a TV inside of a Dick's Sporting Goods somewhere. But could we do that like at a way, way lower price point?

as opposed to like shooting on film which at the time was like the alternative yeah um we're shooting on like the red one mx um which was still an enormous cost uh you know increase so like there there was so few different tiers of filmmaking you know like right now there's a huge range of digital cinema cameras that can all do very similar things you can kind of just like increase the dial of how much you're spending to kind of gradually you know or dramatically increase the image quality

Then it was either you're shooting on film, you're shooting on the red one, which is like pretty good, but like had a lot of gremlins to make look full film or you're shooting on five D's, which are like, you know. they're delivering 60 to 70% of what film can do, but the cost is so much lower that for like, I don't know, let's gamble this, this kid with his camera. Uh, and like, you know, maybe it will work.

um i never got to work originally originally i never got to work with like that exciting talent or even like products but like it was a real job for a real company and like some of those videos still live online Um, so it was an amazing way to kind of get into commercial filmmaking. Um, yeah, sorry. Isn't it funny though? Isn't it funny though? How, like, I think.

All of us grew up around the same time and we would hear stories about, you know, Richard Linkletter and Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith, you know, these filmmakers that. would make these movies by hook or by crook, including being their own DP, being their own editor. And that was so inspiring to us to go, well, fuck it. If there's any way that it's gonna happen, I'm gonna have to do it myself. But by doing that.

There were certain people in my film school that were very... close-minded about the technical side they're like i'm just going to be a screenwriter i'll i'll hire someone to do that stuff and i feel like that like put them at a detriment because When it came down to same thing with me where it's like when I would have music videos and they're like, well, we can only do it on this budget. I couldn't hire a DP or an editor. No, we had that in film school where this one kid shot on.

film first project had a whole crew because he had money to do that the rest of us i mean this is 90 god 96 97 like there were no like digital cameras and stuff you're still shooting on like tape back then yeah so it's it is something we encourage for everybody you don't have to be the world's greatest dp you don't have to be the world's greatest editor whatever it is

but you need to know how to do that stuff because chances are good your first few things you're doing shorts you're not gonna have money to be hiring somebody who's a pro at that you're gonna have to do a ton of it yourself yeah and not to jump ahead to the making i would say i can jump ahead i have a lot to say about this that's what i mean like but like there would be no way no like i mean who knows but

in more in more cases than not there would have been a lot more of a there would have been a harder challenge for you to be able to get what you needed to get for good boy if you didn't know how to shoot and he didn't know how to edit Even there's those basic things like being able to walk away and saying, I got it. Or we know exactly the, the sinew that you need to connect between the two things, you know? Totally. Yeah. I mean to exactly what you're saying about how you kind of.

I think maybe now more than ever, as you're saying, there really is not a path for people who are like, I just want to be a screenwriter or especially anybody who says, I just want to be a director. It's been like. 30 or 40 years since like solo director, not writer or anything else has been like a viable career path. Like it's been like generations since that has been something you could do or a lot of people could do reliably.

For Good Boy, I mean, I don't know how much you know about the making of the film, but... it took a while oh no i did the copious research when i was like okay did this guy do this god damn it so the answer is i mean and it's there's a practical and a creative thing that are aligning because keep in mind for everything i'm about to say which is like the technical

behind the scenes, how did this work? It is all in service of how do you get the best performance from a dog possible. One of the things that is just true and a challenge of working with any animal is that you need to have a closed set.

the fewest number of distractions as possible because every other person, every other piece of equipment is another thing that... the dog might get distracted by that might take away from the performance biggest air quotes in the world around performance created through cinematography and editing so that's just true practically i also made this movie with no money It was entirely financed by me and my wife. The entirety of the shoot, all we could afford to do was have me, my wife and my dog.

in the house we were living in and filming in that house so we were me as the filmmaker my wife as she never studied film but learned how to do it all um out of necessity were the entire cast and crew In post, things change quite a bit. We add vocal performances of actors, but I was the cinematographer. I was the editor. I was the grip, the gaff, the electrician, the carpenter.

I was also the stand-in of Todd, which is a very silly way to make a movie. You got to keep in mind for like a third of the shots. I'm setting up the camera, setting a deep focused field of view, and then turning the camera on, rolling the camera. And then run around in a costume to then act, air quotes, with Indy to actually give him vocal encouragement for here's what I need you to do. Get up on this chair and then.

I'm trying to keep in my head as well that an actor is going to be replacing my vocals after the fact in post-production to then fully create the illusion. That was a lot I just threw out there. Does that make sense, though? No, absolutely. It was not a normal way to make a movie. We've done that many times. I just had to do a pitch video where I had an invisible monster attacking me. And the only way that I was going to be able to do it was know that if I lock the camera down and know where...

my vectors are i'll know that like if i run around and open the door and let it slowly open the only way that i was going to be able to do it alone is if i knew those parameters and the cut points so having all of those in your toolbox knowing you know

how much of the frame can be where it's me as opposed to the, you know, the person who's ultimately playing the actor and being able to know, like, where your cut points are. It becomes vital. One thing that I was curious about, because I know, you know, a lot of talk is about...

the technical side of it but one of the one of the things that i really appreciated about the movie was that like you knew atmosphere and you knew like the the subtle language of atmosphere and tension and suspense that comes with knowing about the genre and were you a horror fan

you know, like when you were growing up, like, or because sometimes people, and you always hear this all the time, like all of our heroes started out making horror movies. And then sometimes they go, well, it wasn't really into horror, but I knew that that was like a way to get in because genre is always a good way of getting into. before I wanna make my more personal films about life on the road and shit like that.

the answer always kind of bumps me out i know right you're like oh come on yeah come on like don't be ashamed of this it's like it is the most reliable genre for a reason people like it you can obviously do a lot with it but i always get so frustrated with the people with A lot of what we call elevated horror movies are dramas that are about something else with like one mediocre jump scare in it. And I'm just like, oh, come on, guys. Like, let's just commit. Like, there's no shame in this.

I think things have changed a little bit like over the years where people are like, look at Sinners, you know, Sinners being a movie that is going to likely. That is unabashedly. That's a horror movie. And he says it's a horror movie, you know, like I'm not afraid of that. oh yeah he's not embarrassed at all that that's like a vampire movie and like people would have seen it even if it wasn't but like yeah great example of the counter of what maybe we were talking about um

No. So to answer your question, I've always been obsessed with horror. I don't know why. I definitely saw some horror movies at a too young age that like scarred me, but also fascinated me. Do you remember any of the titles of those? Exorcist. I got demolished by The Exorcist at a really young age. I mean, I was young enough and still like in a place that I thought I was watching a documentary from like a religious perspective.

But that's what made that movie, and I still think that's part of the reason why it endures. Aside from the third one, which I love and has now become a bit of a classic, it's transcended cult classic to become a classic. But if you look at all the other Exorcist movies and all the ripoffs, they forget that. the the what makes that first movie great is the fact that fried can

Almost kind of took the same approach that he did with French Connection where he kept things grounded and almost in a verite documentary form. He's not doing too much in terms of, you know, lots of. tricks or the tricks that he's using aren't ones that make it feel grandiose totally they're they're wielded so precisely and they're always there for like there's a story reason as well as doing i mean they are you know head spinning around

things done with crucifixes, which I don't even know if I can say. But, you know, they are wielded with like a incredibly precise story reason that also is incredibly disturbing. Yeah. Yeah, I also saw that movie in Washington, D.C. Oh, wow. It was shown to me like it was me, my brother and a cousin were like staying with an aunt and uncle. And the uncle was like, he showed it to us with the same kind of energy of like.

you kids want to see a dead body like it was very real fucked up i got you covered yeah want to go see the steps afterwards oh my god yeah it's it's just it's not possible for me to be more scared by a movie than that experience. You know, like I can't be that young again and think something was that real. I guess it's kind of like the same way that some people saw the Blair Witch Project and thought they were seeing a snuff film. Yeah.

You know, that's kind of like what my exorcist experience was like. And I think with the exorcist, I mean, granted, so many people kind of in our age demographic, that is usually one of the ones that's cited as that one actually scared me. Like, you're not really scared that Freddie's going to get you or, you know, Michael Myers. There is a set. There's a bit of a separation. But with The Exorcist, I distinctly remember asking my parents afterwards, like.

I heard this is kind of based on a true story like this. And then you get answers like, well, look, when it comes to religion and spirits and demons, some people believe in some people, but it's not as clear cut as.

burned up pepperoni face looking monster in your nightmares is not going to get you it's well you know some people think and that's enough to be like what uh so yeah um now when you started kind of putting good boy together was, was kind of the conceit of the entire concept. This is something that I can do. with my own money and i'm because and this is why we're so fascinated with your story is there's so many people out there listening right now that are trying to do this that want to do it

that have been doing it for 20 years. And the hardest part that nobody can really. fully teach you is okay well how do you find that financing that's always everyone's question can you give me a name and a phone number how do i go find this and it's just never that it usually it is not that straightforward

And look, I got those names and those phone numbers and I had those meetings and people were like, this is an amazing concept. I even had a bunch of short films that showed off indie and people were like, yeah, it's cool. We believe in it. But we also don't really think this is possible.

Um, just from a, from a technical point of view, just cause it seems like they're not wrong the way. Right there. You have to do it now to be like, it is possible and I'm going to do it. Yeah. And like, I, I don't know, like I'm looking. it's not that I'm a competitive person, but I certainly like a challenge, like even like a physical, like the, Hey, could I be my entire cast and crew and do all of this? I did not arrive at the.

the answer to like how that would actually work. But I mean, that was also exciting and motivating to me. And it's making a film the way we did, which I guess to answer your question. we did not ever find the financing you know my wife and i paid for this ourselves over a long period of time essentially by allowance you know we we just gradually dedicated a little bit of the because we were working other jobs the entire time we were making this movie

But what we had to figure out how to do was make a movie where money was not the most important resource. Time was. And the reason that time was the most important resource was A, it enabled us to make it kind of piecemeal very slowly. But also, time is the most important resource needed to get a great animal performance. A new phone for Billy, a necklace for Sam, all the while on the lookout for scams.

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Animals are uniquely suited to making a movie this way. They don't require hair and makeup. They don't age the way we do. So, you know, we made this movie over years. I don't know how much you know, but we filmed for, we don't know the exact number, but 400 plus days across three years. Every filmmaker is both, like, jealous and exhausted when you hear that. Because no one, like, in most cases...

like when you were talking before about financing, when it comes down to financing in most cases, it's okay, here's the money. Here's a finite amount of time that you have to utilize that money. And there's usually no leeway in terms of like, you know what? But if you need six weeks to let the actor get fat or skinny or whatever, or six months because of in between things, like no one gets that unless you are financing it yourself. I want to go back really quick.

to those meetings that you were talking about. Cause this is something a lot of people go through. Especially when you're, when you're hoping to direct what you wrote the first.

feature script of mine that went around was the first hatchet and while i got tons of meetings and they were great meetings and they were very complimentary nobody was going to make it because in 2000 four when that script first one it was called victor crowley then but it was um it was just well slashers are dead nobody wants slasher movies anymore and also you got to pick a lane it can

either be funny or this outrageously gory but it's too hard to market and but i got other writing jobs off of it but it's so frustrating when you get a good response and they want to meet with you and you go in with your hopes up only to have them fairly quickly be like, look, we're not going to make this, but we really love the concept. We really liked the writing. It's really, you know, what else do you have it when you're first starting out? That's so hard.

To keep, cause as much as the doors aren't being slammed in your face, they're being gently closed after letting you look in, you know? So at that point, what was that like for you? Just sort of psychologically being like, Oh my God, they responded. They want to meet. No. You know, I mean, in some ways, I think the the no was.

I think the hardest part about some of that stuff is that like, you actually don't very rarely, you very rarely get a definitive, no, Hey, this isn't for us. You're mostly getting like, you know, it needs, it's a little wishy-washy. I think I was actually.

benefited by the fact that another thing that really forces to make the movie the way we did was the pandemic. Not that there was anything good about the pandemic, but, you know, a movie made by a husband and wife and their dog in an isolated house in the woods.

is very much, I mean, the movie spanned an enormous time. So it started very much at the height of the pandemic. And then by the end of it, you know, I probably could have had more cast and crew. But the fact that the pandemic was going on...

very much made the no more definitive on some of those things like hey no one's doing anything right now um so it was like okay well if that's the state of the world um in some ways it's liberating that like no one's going to give us money let's just make it um and not see what happens. I mean, we had at that point, I developed a very novel way to work with my own dog. And

I came to the idea that time would be the main resource that it would take this enormous window to make. Originally, I think I thought the movie was going to take just a year to shoot. I was wrong by a factor of three. But yeah, I guess there's no easy way to get that wishy-washy answer. And I think a more concrete yes or no is always nicer, if not emotionally, practically.

Well, before we go any further with the making of the movie, we got to talk about Indy. How did Indy come into your life? Where did he come from? I'm assuming he's named after Indiana Jones. He sure is. Okay. But what a beautiful.

dog what have you i mean we are huge dog lovers here we've done nine years of yorky thons which are fundraisers for the dog rescue we work with we've raised what like well over 300 000 or something like that for them um so as soon as i saw the trail for this it was just oh my god i have to see i remember standing it to you going get ready and you were like oh my fucking god but how did you how did indy come into your life so my wife and i got indy as a puppy not thinking he would

be involved in movies at all we got him to be our friend and that was the plan um we got him in 2017 so um you know again dogs don't age the way people do thank goodness for the way i made the film And it wasn't until probably owning him for like a year and a half, at which point I'd been writing Good Boy the script. I think I started working on the concept back in like 2012. Just like that's the earliest note I could find in one of my notebooks.

um for the concept i've been writing the script for over a year and i figured i should try and shoot some of these scenes how i see them playing out visually where i just figured Indy's my dog. I have a backyard. Why don't I try and shoot something just with him? The first thing we shot is not very good. It's just, you know, I had not figured out how to train him or to like put the camera.

in relation to his face and body that and that's important for people to understand this is not a trained cinema dog this is just your dog and that's what makes it so great it's what makes it hard, but it is also what makes it great. And I think that's why his performance feels genuine because we were able to ultimately, you know, he is trainable. He's very, very intelligent, like intelligent in a way that I think for most pets is actually like,

You almost don't want a dog that's too smart when you're just looking for a family friend and pet. You know, like this is a dog that can figure out how to get into a lot of trouble if left to his own devices. But he's also the dog, a dog who can learn a lot of commands or...

can try and figure out a problem and wants to follow his senses and all those are things we were able to harness in you know again to create the illusion of a performance because it really only appears through the magic of editing and cinematography um i can get further into the weeds than that but i didn't want to jump too far ahead well i

You did, he was at some screenings, right? When, when the movie came out and like originally when we were going to have this conversation, you were in town and Indy was here. Right. And, and so I'm, I'm sad that didn't work out. I really.

would love to meet him but uh i i guess there's no way for him to watch the movie and be proud right like maybe he'll stare at the screen for scenes of it but yeah he'll watch the movie and more listen to the movie because like his own vocalizations are in the film all of the audio is rebuilt in post. The entire production audio is just my wife and I talking to our dog to get him to hopefully do, you know, whatever it is we're hoping to do.

So that's rebuilt in post, but his vocalizations, which are recorded from different settings and then laid back into the film after being isolated by our post-production sound wizards. You know, Indy occasionally hears his own voice come out of the TV. So he definitely reacts to the film, but has no idea he was in a movie. He doesn't know what the movie is.

Yeah, it must be like imagine being a dog and like a movie comes on and like you're used to hearing all kinds of things come out of the TV, but then you're hearing your own voice like that dog. Yeah, that must be really surreal. The dog is going to need therapy. And now it's time for Hollywood therapy. The doctors are winning.

That's right. It's time for everyone's favorite part of the movie crypt. It's time for Hollywood therapy with Dr. Arwen. This is where the three of us do the best job we possibly can answering your more personal questions on behalf of the good doctor. We would let her answer, but woof. She's a dog. All right. Okay. So this is rare because this, this week's Hollywood therapy question comes from a handwritten letter.

that we are nailed. When's the last time we got that for a Hollywood therapy question? And this is from Kenny, who was also kind enough to send each of us copies of his films. Okay. Dear Dr. Arwen and associates, I have the sickness and I'm trying to figure out how to make it through life when all I really want to do is make movies. No matter how many missed payouts from distributors, hungry nights, or fading personal relationships that result from months...

I understand that for better or worse, whatever may come, that's how I want to live my life, making my art at any cost. The cool kids, cool with a K. As my third self-funded feature film, I was able to get the first two flicks into the black, and I'm hoping I don't lose it all on this one. My previous film before this, Homecoming Massacre, was about a killer clown and was a much easier thing to market than an indie psychological...

drama about troubled teens as i'm living with the worries of making that investment back i am also gearing up for the next project which is going to be a significant increase in budget i'll be pitching wherever i possibly can that seems like a good fit but really my plan is to continue making movies in my makeshift bare bones ecosystem until the cavalry finally comes. I hear that ain't happening or until I fall over dead crying out.

from all the stress and all the stories I never got to tell. Before that day comes, is there any advice you could give to make this existence a little easier? I'm a single father with a day job far outside the industry. It's a job that keeps me miserable and depressed, but it's keeping the family alive while I spend the rest of my time focused on what I want to create. Thank you for taking the time to read this and for all you do for all of us. It is deep.

appreciated kenny um so this is really uh ben you're like the perfect person to be talking to for this question because look look what you did um so i mean his main question is How do you make this existence a little easier? And so as someone who just went through it for years, making one film, we'll let you go first. I think you have to find a way to make the filmmaking as fun as possible.

And I think that's a, I mean, that's a question you have to, everyone has a different answer and way to answer this, but like, it is supposed to be fun. Like ultimately at the end of the day, the job of filmmaking is play pretend make-believe, which is. wonderful and strange and weird. And that was the part of the filmmaking, like this whole journey of writing the movie, making the movie, distributing post-production.

getting into theaters that I really enjoyed the most. I wish I could be doing it right now. The time, the three years, 412 plus days I spent just day in and out, grinding the movie out very slowly. Did not always work. It frequently didn't work because there's a dog at the center of it who doesn't know he's in a movie. It was still an absolute blast. And that was, I mean, that was the reason I got up every day.

I think it's okay if making films are, you know, regardless of how they succeed in the world, whatever that means. It's okay if that's just the reason to get up and keep making art like films as a way to sustain yourself, I think is like a very good way to be spending your time and money. And.

I think in terms of, you know, then getting things out there, whatever success means, that's going to be a different answer for each person in each film. But I would start there. And I want to jump in because you're right. Like that, I think.

I don't think anyone, any filmmaker worth their salt is going to be able to say, like, I... love this experience when you have that proverbial gun to your head when you have you've been given no time when you've been given a finite amount of money that's been dictated a lot of times by someone else

That kind of takes the joy out of it. And anytime that I've been like, and we've professed this for years and we have friends like Dave Lawson who have a whole company that their motto is make movies with friends. And when you can set. parameters and set a power, like a work paradigm where it's not like.

It's a race to get everything in the can immediately because of, you know, availability or we're running out of money or whatever. When you can have a much more relaxed situation with a very small crew where you're not worried about that PA that's down. the street that you you know like that somebody hired that just you know concerned with lockdown and when the machine gets too big it it i think it takes some of the joy out of it because as the director you are

You're responsible for all of that. And the ripple effect can sometimes be so stressful. But when anytime that I've done something where it's right, like it just. your friends and your family, and you have control over the location. If you get one or two shots off, those are the things that we always hear about from like the sixties and seventies filmmakers, like, you know, like Terrence Malick or, or Robert Altman, where they're just like, eh.

we got this. That's it. We're good for the day. Instead of like, yeah, I have to do 12 pages today or I'm going to lose this, this, and this. And that sucks. It takes the fun out of it. So like, if anything, I think. What our viewers or listeners should consider is find, and it sounds like this is kind of what he wants to do, is find a way to create that environment where you have less people involved.

Because like, look, Ben, you're a testament to this. You made an entire movie with a very, very small crew and you were able to pull off something that would be able to premiere at South by right next to all the movies that were, you know. five times the budget your movie is being submitted for consideration alongside huge hollywood blockbusters yes and yeah and it you know it's one thing for someone to go yeah but you know

one battle after another is going to win, or this one's going to, so what you like, that's, that's the way your work is being looked at, which is amazing. And also just so everyone understands the reality of it, you don't make one movie and then you're set. You're set. Totally. Yes. So hard to this. Yes. Yes. So many people have seen good boy. It's currently streaming on shutter. It was in theaters. You're still teaching.

You know, and you're going to then you're going to go make another movie, hopefully fucking soon, because we can't wait to see what you do next. But Kenny, you're you're already doing it. And I know it's hard when you already want more, but first of all, and I don't mean this in the way I think it's going to come out at first, but I'm not saying this, like don't quit your day job, but.

don't quit the day job because that is what is enabling you to a provide for your child, which is, that's the most important thing. I know everyone's like, it's cinema or death and all that. Yes. but that is way more important and you're doing it and even though you don't love the day job it is paving a way for you to do i mean i'm holding two blu-rays in my hand that look like every other blu-ray on our on our shelves i mean you've done this one looks like nine film festivals this was in like

So you're doing something right. And you love making movies. That's what you want to do. So try to find a way to make it fun. The day job. is what you need to do to feed your family and keep doing this and, and keep growing those ambitions. Keep learning on each thing you make. I'm sure we all do it. We look at our previous stuff and go, Oh man, that's not, that's not really next time. I got it.

to do this next i'm not using those lenses whatever it might be but but you're doing it it just it's so hard when you see other people are doing the same thing but for whatever reason now they're set and that's all they do is focus on that. That's the dream. But I can also tell you this as somebody who went,

Like right up until the pandemic hit and everything got flushed away. And like, who saw that coming? I was just going to movie to movie to movie to movie. Like the fact that you still have that job. And if it's a secure job, hold onto it. you absolutely know I don't need this anymore because you might need it again at some point. All of us have had projects just suddenly evaporate, fall apart. And now what do you do? It takes so long to get them going again. So I guess what I'm saying is.

You're doing it and like how to make the existence better. Just fucking love it and realize that that day job is not a dead end job. Because your family's okay. You're okay. And you're getting to do this. So just keep going. And that is Arwen's final word.

So you've obviously you've seen the movie many times with audiences. You've been on the festival circuit. You've seen the movie with, you know, small crowds, big crowds in any way and everyone in between. But no one knows that movie like you do, considering that. you know, you were part of this, this process from soup to nuts beginning to end. And, you know, one of the gimmicks of the movie, like this at least sounds really good for marketing is, you know, the.

400 plus days and that you did it by yourself and you know when you watch the movie if you took all of that out of the equation More times than not, no one is going to notice that because the movie looks so polished and it feels... No, unless you're into that. Yeah, exactly. For the filmmakers... You just know what you're watching. Yeah. And this is always... This is hard for everyone because...

You as the filmmaker, you know exactly what you wanted that thing to be. And it never quite is exactly what you wanted. It's what you got. But the audience only knows what they're seeing. They don't know that you really wanted to have this idea in there, that idea. how you did it. And they judge indie movies a lot of the time, the same as they do a $300 million studio movie. Like their expectations for explosions and.

capes and superheroes flying around might not be exactly the same as when they're going into something like this but they don't they don't care like what the budget was they just want to be entertained and and you god did you do that did you see the game last night Of course you did, because you used Instacart to do your grocery restock. Plus, you got snacks for the game, all without missing a single play. And that's On Multitasking.

So we're not saying that Instacart is a hack for game day, but it might be the ultimate play this football season. Enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees apply for three orders in 14 days. Excludes restaurants. So the long-winded way of asking this question is we all have this, and I just read an article with Ryan Coogler about sinners, and they were asking him about the most difficult shot. And when he explained it, it was, you know, yes, it was a shot.

with michael b jordan playing both characters but it was the la the last the last shot i would have ever expected it was just a shot of them in a car driving along having a conversation and he was like that give they gave me hives every time i would see it because of all the

horrific things that had to go on to make that shot work. And, and, and in the end he goes, and the shot came out. Okay. I'm like, dude, it came out. Okay. It looked, I even went back and watch it and went, it's seamless. You wouldn't, if you didn't know that they were, if there was the same person, you wouldn't even. question it so for you when you watch the movie which is the shot that you are most proud of

when it comes to like the backstory of like, Oh my God, if you guys only knew what it took to get that shot, I asked that because I think that's one of our Hollywood there are one of our viewer milk. Well, sorry for them. You know, we park our cars in this game, same garage. Cause the whole time I'm.

watching it i'm going oh god i was like i was getting like sick going that must have been a fucking nightmare but for like that's that's my perspective someone who wasn't on set for you what was that shot Oh, yeah, I know exactly the one. So and especially something I think people would not expect because it would have been it's a shot that would have been incredibly easy if it involved a human actor. So at the end of the film, I guess, can I spoil the movie?

yes we're we're good spoiler warning there you go um so there is a final goodbye um the the human uh indies human todd is is is going to not make it and there's this final goodbye of just like it's an interplay of close-ups of just you know two people basically you know a sorrowful you know exchange of shot reverse shot here's one person's close-up here's the dog's close-up and the dog just needs to look

um sad and devastated practically a very easy way to make any dog look sad is to get them wet I'd been saving that trick in my pocket. If you'll notice all the times Indy is meant to look sad or upset, he's either like in a shower or covered in mud or it's raining outside. Look at you out there listening who owns a dog. Next time you give that dog a bath.

look at their face yeah oh god they're just like well and what's so funny about indy is that indy loves the water um and he loves like you know rolling around in mud there's another scene in the film where he has disappeared and then when he reappears he's covered in mud and yeah like Yeah. He looks like he's been through some kind of ordeal and there's always a good gasp in the audience. And if you think about the production of that for just one second behind the scenes.

The solution is so simple of asking my dog to roll around in mud was no hardship. It's just, he's covered in mud and, you know, audiences do their, you know, the math storytelling of he disappeared. Now he's covered in mud. Something terrible happened.

which is what you want them to think you don't want them thinking about the behind the scenes no you don't want them talking you don't want them thinking about how the shot was made you just want them to see it and feel it um this is a kind of a weird question and it might be a very simple answer But having worked with animals on sets that were financed bigger budget things, the amount of attention and care that goes into that, there's usually somebody from.

animal services who's also there filming everything that's happening behind the scenes because the last thing anybody wants to hear about is oh man that animal was miserable during that shoot, uncomfortable, it got hurt, something like that. Now, when you're doing something independently in your own home, when it came time for distribution and release, did anybody ask, well, we need some sort of certificate claiming?

you know from the aspca or whatever it might be that no animals were harmed in this or do you just get yeah no i mean no i mean i mean there's a version of everyone says some version of no animals are harmed at the end of their film at the end of their film um we didn't have a like official certificate no i mean what we had is that indie is our pet we were working

on his schedule, the entire film was based around him. And the rate limiting step when working with an animal is their attention span, or at least our dog. you know on the bigger productions i've been involved in some animals will work like up to a five hour day um i think that's the most i've ever even heard of or what is permitted or what is even practically that's like an eastwood schedule right there yeah

right well and normally multiple dogs will play the same character indie was the only dog playing indie besides a few times there's a stuffed animal version of indie that does some of the stunts like jumping off the roof you can imagine the the things that look like stunts are

done by a toy essentially no we just worked in like the pace is what kind of kept everything you know calm and two indies you know schedule but the shot that i was going to say that is so hard so i was talking about like getting the dog wet That's a lot to manage. But at the end of the film, those shots, just like those close-ups of the two characters, stillness is so hard to capture with the dog.

where I just need a very exact frame of the way he's looking up kind of into a lens. I've taken the time to get him wet and dirty, and I just need him to look at one spot in a very tight, shallow depth of field. you know, frame for like five unbroken seconds. That took three days to get.

I was so curious about that. Like eye lines, man. Like it's. Yeah. So eye lines. So, so much of the film is eye line of just like, where is he looking? What is his relationship to the line of action? The 180 degree, you know, which is why your knowledge of editing was so important.

for this because you could have thought you got the shot and then in post been like oh fuck he's looking to the wrong side of camera it doesn't make sense that's why i was i was editing the film as we were going So I my work day was in addition to like having another job, you know, my the pace of work was I would we were always shooting nights and weekends just because that works with a work schedule.

where we would, you know, like finish eating dinner, then it was like, we're gonna spend two, three hours filming, sometimes way less than that, just because, you know, Indy would get distracted. And it was or we would quickly discover whatever I'd spent the entire day setting up.

Wouldn't work. But on night one, you know, I'm shooting. Then on day two, I spend the morning reviewing the footage, slotting whatever shot we got the previous night into the sequence of storyboards. And then eventually. you know all the other shots that make up the entire sequence in full film

And I was constantly needing to adjust. Okay, what we did yesterday, the performance, air quotes, performance from Indy works, but he needs to be like 30 degrees more on access with the camera to really get that shot, reverse shot, objective, subjective juxtaposition.

to work yeah crazy but yeah lots of fiddly little dials we were trying to make work again with a dog who does not understand he's in a movie Was there any scene that got radically reworked when you were in that post situation where you were shooting some stuff, you put it into post, you went, oh, that's not working.

had to reconfigure it whether it was the the location itself or what indie was doing um because like that's one of the beauties of being able to kind of do something more organically ben wheatley would do this a lot i remember what movie it was but i would how he was editing on set and at one point it was it was that martin scorsese movie that he liked that he produced but he said like nope stop

This isn't working and completely reconfigured the blocking of the scene and then shot it again and then put it into post and went, but that's it, you know, but he would have never been able to do that if he wasn't on set and went, this isn't working. Like, was there any situation like that for you? I mean, the number of things that didn't work are like too many to list. Like I would say.

half of all shots i mean i did storyboard the whole movie and everything was i tried to plan everything out as much as i could but indy as an x factor frequently would you know laugh at the you know you make plans god laughs um dog dog has other ideas so it was

Every shot was an adventure trying to figure out how do we get something that is like the idea or how do we shift the plan of how I thought I was going to film this or even how like the blocking and the storytelling will unfold. I think maybe a better example is. I always was trying to be open to indie might do something that isn't what I expected, but maybe is way, way better. Here's an example.

The end of the film, this is just before that kind of tearful goodbye between the two characters. There's a final confrontation. India's just dragged Todd back from the afterlife into the realm of the living. And there's like, but the shape, the evil force is still coming. And I knew I wanted to have these shots of like the camera is kind of bearing down on the characters, you know, before the, like in this finale. And...

We never trained Indy to bark just because as soon as you train a dog a new command, they will start offering that behavior when confronted with a problem you're asking them to solve. And we knew we wanted to like not go really lassie or air bud with this where the dog is constantly barking, almost like dialogue. It just felt like Disney movie style. So we would elicit barks, you know, more organically. And for whatever reason.

The barking we got in that finale felt really, really like it felt really good. He's as a breed. They don't bark. They scream, which is perfect for a horror movie. And we got these. Incredible, like, you know, like really high energy, you know.

barks which are actually the result of him playing with the tennis ball so they're not they're not frightened at all it's him that that's indy's relationship with the tennis ball um which is very very positive But it was just like, okay, there's a new energy hype in his performance he has brought to this scene that we now need to create visuals of what he's seen that seem to be eliciting these frantic shrill barks.

So then it was, you know, kind of reverse engineering some of the visuals of the dark force bearing down on him and Todd at the end of the movie and reworking all of the shots to embrace that footage. Okay, this is more of a comment before my question. I was convinced when I started the movie that Todd was in the throes of addiction, and it was all a metaphor for that.

and then once i started talking to other people who had seen the movie they're like no no that's not what it was okay um but i wanted that's okay i want to veer into um the the your teaching side of it one of the things that kind of disenchanted me when i was in college was that the from the screenwriting instructor to the editing instructor to like

TV broadcasts and all that stuff. None of them had any credits. They had never done it. And that doesn't mean you can't teach if you haven't done it. But when someone is giving you critical notes and they've never done it, it's kind of like, it's just, you're like, who's this guy? Yeah. Coupled with the fact that everyone else that I went to school with looked down on me because I wanted to make horror movies and horror movies are like one step away. Yeah. Right.

But for you, you've been teaching and I'm sure your students are well aware you made this movie over all this time and you did it on your own and it was in. theaters and everyone is seeing it and enjoying it so that must be so special in your relationship to students that you're trying to teach this stuff to like what is that like It's been great because it does feel like I've gotten to make a movie that kind of practices what I preach, which is that.

I think the film does look good on a very technical level, but like ultimately the reason the movie succeeds is because of the story and Indy's performance. And when I teach... Yeah, totally. And also it's like, I think this is another lesson I try and tell people is that like, especially when you have a low budget, you kind of, you shouldn't try and compete to make spectacle or.

you know, like explosions or CGI or special effects, like you're not going to be able to compete with that. So don't even try make something only you can do. That is my advice to everybody. Who's like, I want to make a movie, maybe apropos of nothing, which is a weird way to start, but let's say that's what you're doing.

I would say, okay, what's special and unique about you or something only you can do? Make the movie around that. My dog and the way I found out how to, I don't come from a family of dog trainers or anything, but I... took the time and figured out how to work with my own dog and do something very special and unique with him um so yeah it's been great and the thing you were just saying about that like there can be a perception of like

looking down on a certain kind of movie genre movies horror movies maybe specifically um

I certainly do not feel that way. In fact, the way I try and like start all of my classes when I'm like literally learning all my students' names is I always start by having an icebreaker of just saying, hey, tell me who you are and tell me your favorite movie. Not the one that you think is going to impress me. Tell me the one that is... actually your favorite yeah that you've watched more than five times and and the students are like

you know my name's clive and my favorite movie is tombstone i'm like hell yeah it's tombstone and i'm bringing hell with me but if they said citizen you would be like no i'm never gonna forget clive because he was like you know shout out to clive he's actually one of my

favorite students ever. Right now, Clive's like listening, just going, yeah. Yeah. And Tombstone, it's just like, you know, but some students will be like, oh, my favorite movie is something from the Criterion Collection, which maybe it is their favorite, but like, really, like...

It's OK if you want to make movies that make you feel a certain way, like Indiana Jones. There's a perception, though, like we've all it sounds like obviously all three of us have been in the film school environment where sometimes you have to feel like.

you're smart enough, you know, to like, Oh, you're, you're classy enough or you're dignified enough. And you have to say citizen Kane or bicycle thief. And I didn't feel smart enough. Cause like when I moved into my dorm room, there was like an ET poster that I put up. a jurassic park poster a lion king poster yeah a halloween poster and an evil dead 2 poster and the that i took from some of my friends

I hadn't heard of some of them. They were all like foreign directors, black and white films, foreign language films. And I didn't, that just wasn't my thing. Look. I can appreciate that stuff and see how great it is, of course. But because I'm like, I really want to make horror movies. It was just kind of like, well, you don't even count. Yeah. Like, um, yeah. And like any, anytime I would.

Sorry. Anytime I would come back from summer break and be like, guys, did you see the new Michael Bay movie? It was amazing. And be like, oh, no. Unless it went to the Angelica Film Center, we don't even talk about it here. You're like, oh, man. Yeah. Yeah, no, that is, I actually do think that is changing. I don't know. It's also funny how many people who teach very highfalutin film theory classes, you know, like whatever kind of avant-garde film.

I also feel like I get to have conversations with them. You know, this is behind the scenes of like, you know, in academia. And they're like, yeah, but the thing I really watched was like.

you know they read fangoria they read rumor and they're just like i'm actually a huge horror fan i was like man you should teach that that's what like that actually will relate to a lot of kids you know yeah well because a lot of times horror like this was actually brought up by my uh my film teacher for film theory 201 started a horror class uh my junior year and now if you tried to get

regular students not film students into a film theory class you had to pay them a hundred bucks that's how hard it was to get them in there was no fucking way that the general public was going to like come in for that horror film class filled up 30 minutes like and it was packed and you'd be like and he even he said he's like I guarantee you that you guys are going to walk out of this class like thinking and knowing about

Movies in general, because you came in thinking, oh, we're going to talk about Nightmare on Elm Street and Friday the 13th and The Exorcist and The Omen. All movies that were, you know, commercial successes and populist films. But if you look back at the movies that inspired them, like Qui-Don or The Haunting, and I guarantee most of the students who were in that class walked away with a...

a bigger appreciation for films that they probably would have never done. Otherwise some films, not even horror, but horror has always been, I think it's like we were talking before about like those filmmakers who were like, well, I really want to make serious films, but I'll make a hard.

film to start out it's those those types of movies that allow us to kind of suck in the audience because they feel like it's probably low stakes because look sometimes when you see 824 pop up somebody goes like oh man that's going to be a nutritious meal instead of a big bucket of popcorn and yeah that's not it's not fair it's not fair

to those movies but you know like horror allows us to open up the world for so many people and I guarantee you there's going to be so many people who've seen this movie who are now going to be like maybe I should check out some of those like more creepy movies that might be on the Criterion channel that they wouldn't have before because they were like they had no clue, you know? Yeah, I think you're right about film theory. I certainly have gotten it was amazing just weeks before the film.

the good boy was put into theaters i got the opportunity to make a little behind the scenes featurette that would play after the credits i don't know if you guys have seen it no that's wait wait we're starting to answer all the questions at the audience let's uh jump to our Everyone's second favorite part of the movie Maybe I can continue a film theory point Okay It's time for

All right. First question is from Michael. I loved how there was essentially a DVD extra after the credits when my lady and I saw a good boy theatrically. I'm curious as to whether you personally had anything to do with that or if it was the proverbial. they that added it in. The proverbial they that added it in. No, I made that entirely myself. Me, I went into the footage, found some behind the scenes that my wife and I had recorded with our iPhones to kind of...

give it shape. So if folks haven't seen it, there's a little feature that played theatrical only when the film was released in theaters. It is also being prepared for the Blu-ray and DVD. So it is exactly as... this person noted like a DVD extra. But in it, I talk about, you know, how we created Indy's performance. That's really the focus of it all because Indy is not a trained actor. He's not a trained, he's not a person. He's not a, he's.

he might seem ill-suited for this. And one of the things I talk about is the Kuleshov effect, about how just using shot, reverse shot, and Indy's neutral expression kind of creates a performance. Anyway, I'm getting into the weeds of what this actually was, but to answer the question, yes, I made that.

A huge shout out to my co-producer, Brian Goodhart, who also marshaled the entire post sound team, who with very little time also mixed it. So it hopefully sounded good in all the theaters. But yeah, no, that was totally a production made extra.

All right. This is from Greg. Hello, Adam, Joe, Ben, Arwen, and Indy. I was lucky enough to experience this in the theater with a passionate audience, and it was an incredibly tense and rewarding viewing. You could audibly hear people gasp at certain points in the entire theater.

was entranced by the flick. Given the patience you and everyone involved had to have for this endeavor, do you have any theatrical screenings that stand out and that made it worth it? Thanks for an incredible movie, and please give Indy a hug for me. I think the theatrical experience that most stands out was when we played at South by Southwest, there's multiple screenings at the festival. And the first two were in the Alamo that does all the South Lamar.

Yes. And it played really, really well. But if you've been to any Alamo, you know that the seats are a little bit more spread out. Oh, yeah. Yeah. um and the third screening was in one of the it was like a converted like ballroom of a hotel it was a much bigger theater it was packed i think it was you know they were bringing in extra chairs to accommodate as many people as they could

And seeing the film with a packed room where people are shoulder to shoulder, it was obviously a very, you know, excited and willing crowd that wanted to see the film. But how much... of a difference just the capacity and density of a room makes in magnifying the gasps and screams and laughs where they exist

that was really satisfying to get to see. That's not a shot against the first ways the film was seen. That's a different kind of room. But it's really interesting how, like, even the shape and size of a room changes an experience. Well, that also, like...

the way that you describe that the first two nights and and again you're right no discredit to those first two screenings but a lot of times those are industry people and a lot of times that's media and critics yeah critics and stuff and they just have a different vibe like it sucks sometimes when you have people watching your movie for the first time and they're doing it because it's their job

and and you know what i hate to say it but it does filter the experience like when suitable flesh played at tribeca the first screening we had was a lot of media a lot of industry family and friends and yeah it was a warm reception it went really really well, but it like, I could feel that it wasn't a hundred percent genuine. It wasn't until the third screening where it was.

Not, there was no critics. There were no industry people. It was people who heard about that screening and they wanted, you know, they were interested. So it was word of mouth. And that was the best screening we had because that was just people who are horror fans. or genre fans, or just heard like,

hey, this sounds like a cool fucking movie. That's the one that I'll never forget because that came from a genuine place. Those people didn't have to be there on a Friday night. They could have seen four other movies from the festival. Yeah, they're not there with a notebook taking notes. Yes.

And sometimes that bothers me because like that first night, Barbara Crampton was like, oh my God, are you so excited for the response? I'm like, I kind of want to wait until the third one because the second one we had was all festival.

pass holders who had heard stuff and that did not go as well as the first one because it was people who were like oh i i saw on letterboxx this got a good review they did not know what they were getting into it was the third one that that's that's really where you get the most

genuine audience, I think. That was basically exactly my experience. And then also magnify that just again, size and shape of the room also really change things. Yeah. Something that I've done a couple times now, Joe, you might remember this.

from the hatchet for screening when the surprise screening when it's a room filled with other filmmakers and industry people um even though the other half of the theater is all fans like and this goes back to my days in a band you could always tell who in the audience was also in a band because their arms were crossed when you walked out yeah and so i would look out and see it and this wasn't planned but i was like look before we get started

Can I just say it's bullshit that I've had the career I've had. Why did my movie get made and yours didn't? And I just, and everyone will start laughing, but it breaks that up and then be like, so now that we got that out of the way, you're all better than me. Can we just watch this and have fun? All right, this is from Scott. Who's a good boy?

Who's a good boy? You are. Oh, wait, it's the filmmaker, not Indy. Okay, then how about, how did you manage Indy's attention span, figuring out when he was at his best, and how did you manage multiple takes without Indy losing a natural feel of realism? I know you sort of already...

Kind of answered that. I will add my entire family loved the movie. So thank you for this amazing night at the cinema. Yeah. How did he do when you needed him to keep doing the same thing? I mean, the answer is he couldn't. So no take was like a previous take. And that meant we had to be ready and flexible in a way that is just not common for most movies.

I think a principle of dog training. I don't know if this is universally true. Keep in mind, I'm not really a dog trainer, but I heard that the way we as people learn and can do things like let's say you're you're at a piano and you learn to play a scale. After you've done it once, the natural tendency is to say, okay, I've got it. Let me do it again. And that will really set it. That is not how dogs learn. Dogs, if you want them to do something, they will get to a point where they get it.

And then the next time, that point where humans would like, and now I said it, that will never exist again. The best thing you ever could have gotten just happened, and it's now in the past. So you need to be filming the rehearsal.

i would say so to speak if if you know what i mean oh yeah always be rolling on that situation so basically you seem to always be rolling um and as soon as you got something that was really really good there's no way to kind of get it again um just because you'll get something else and maybe it'll it'll be different maybe probably worse just because he'll he will react to whatever stimuli we're giving him slightly differently

And stimuli is an interesting word just because the other part of the question was how do you manage his attention span? Part of it is just timing. We have to make the movie over a really long time because his attention span is a finite resource. It's at most three hours a day. And then he's just... cooked it's like trying to work with a kid that is just too tired it's diminishing returns um so to keep him sharp we would offer him

He was always responding to different words just to get him to look. Sometimes we were holding food, sometimes a toy he was interested in. Frequently, we were making sounds at him. I made a lot of bird noises to him to get him to look in the right direction. So constantly changing that stimuli up was a way we kind of not necessarily managed the attention span, but helped keep it.

All right. One more question from the audience. This is from Dan. I assume this is the first phase in the dog versus ghost horror verse. So when are we getting good girl? Oh, wow. It's interesting. I haven't thought of more. I have thought of sequels for this that are continued versions of where Indy goes next. But my idea is not so much to like.

It would be a different house. I feel like the way you would continue this would almost like it'd be fun to kind of like slightly change the horror subgenre every time. Like my co-writer and I had talked about where like. You know, you could do dog versus serial killer. You could do dog versus werewolf. I kind of wonder if it's not just ghosts. Like maybe there's a broader way to take the dog horror storytelling.

yeah i could see that you know speaking of which um that's the last viewer mail question right yes it is um One of the things that I didn't expect from the movie, because for the most part, the film stays within a certain reality. It is Indy's point of view, but it stays kind of, you know, outside of his head until we start getting dream sequences. And the first thing I thought of was like, I don't know if I'm going to like this because the first thing I thought of was Hills Have Eyes Part 2.

where there's the infamous dog flashbacks. Have you ever seen those? No, I need to watch this now. Oh my God. You might not need to, but it became a joke because, you know, like. if you know anything about that movie, they, they did one of those, like, all right, we have to recap the entire first movie for the audience because a lot of them probably haven't seen it. So they start doing the, and they do all these different characters. And then they do the dog and it's fucking hilarious, but.

It's also something that for a lot of fans, it takes you out of it because you're like, that's kind of fucking ridiculous. So the first time that we get into one of Indy's more very subjective in his head moments. I was like, I don't know. But the way that it's done is so elegant and very surrealistic. I bought into it. Was that always... planned was that always that you were going to kind of get inside his head a little bit and how did you develop that that like look yeah so um

it's it's lots of things that go into the look i mean the way the film is colored the way it's shot even the lens choices we try and try to have specifically these are dream lenses we're using just for this the sound design is different the music is different so

It's all things that I don't think the pieces necessarily jump out, but it kind of lets the audience know we're in dreamland for this stuff. It's funny to hear. I'm glad that it felt like an elegant transition. That was something I was always trying to think about. like not even just from reality to dreams and vice versa, but I was always trying to think of what are interesting kind of creative or elegant transitions from scene to scene. The first time we had, we're going into Indy's dream.

What I really wanted was, I guess you guys as dog owners, you'll be familiar with this. You know how sometimes when dogs are sleeping, you'll see them barking and kind of like running? Oh, yeah. And they move around. My dog does that. Indy does that all the time. And I kept trying to film just one of those nights where he was laying at the foot of the bed. The camera would pan over and land on him. And we would see him going.

you know like kind of doing that thing and just never worked I probably tried to get that shot like seven times across the you know three years I was filming So I was always worried that it wouldn't make sense because I wasn't giving audiences enough of a visual clue that what we're about to see is a dream. So maybe it worked in spite of that or because of that. I'm not sure. I one more one more question on my end. I what's exciting about this point in your.

your your burgeoning career is the fact that you've made a movie that is so unique it's um it you know some would say gimmicky but in a good way no i don't mind that word at all yeah but it's something that has hit the zeitgeist in a way that makes people excited for what you're going to do next. And I kept thinking about how someone was giving shit to, did you ever see the movie Persepolis? It's the animated film. Yes. Yes.

So, you know, the director who I met at Fantastic Fest years ago when that movie played, Marjane Satrapi, I think it is. I think that's right. And then they were asking her like, so what's next? And when she said, I want to do a live action film.

I heard a couple of snickers in the room. It was almost like when Brad Bird, who, you know, went from, you know, animated films, which is, you know, a very specific discipline was like, I want to do, you know, I want to do mission impossible or, you know, like, or I'm going to do mission impossible.

sure yeah yeah tomorrow tomorrow land or whatever and you know there was it came with some skepticism because it's like whoa stay in your lane now you know for you you know this movie is primarily an animal performance film it is still a horror film but like now it's like it the next idea that you have the next project that you might be you know kind of queuing up i'm curious if like

Is there any extra pressure over like, well, if this movie doesn't have a dog in it, I'm kind of screwed. I was going to ask the same thing because whatever the first thing is you're known for in the industry, it's like, well, he's that guy. Yeah. He's the guy who does that. Yeah. Now you're the dog guy.

I think it helps that the way I made the film is so unlike how dogs are worked with in the industry. And I think that's why the movie succeeds and why Indy's performance feels unique and a standout. I have gotten a few dog scripts sent my way. Nothing that like I'm going to do. I'm very committed that my next film have a human cast that can read a script and agrees on the reality. And be aware they're in the movie. Yeah. Yeah. But like I have had a few.

conversations of like you know people who are in the midst of a production on like hey we've got this movie with a famous person in it and uh we just need like we need better dog performances over the next two weeks and i'm already kind of like well i can't help you because you've already the two week rate limiting step is going to be a problem.

So I think the unique way that I work with dogs, which uses time as a resource, is so unlike how most movies are made. I'm not at a huge risk of being fully typecast just because nobody wants to make a movie that way. I think the thing that if I'm okay being typecast with is that this is a bit more theoretical or conceptual is that making films that perspective is a reason we're watching it.

So not necessarily that it's all movies from a dog's point of view or a cat's point of view. I'm not just going to shift like down the line of other animals. but where perspective really tells the story. Sometimes it could be as gimmicky as it would be in Good Boy, but even just the idea that point-of-view characters will be limited.

that always excites me when I'm thinking about future projects or like other scripts that are out there. Awesome. All right. Well, the last question we always like to ask everyone, what was the point? in your journey so far and i'm sure there's been several where it just all seemed so bleak like it just was not going to happen and how did you not give up um

I feel like on a daily, near daily basis while making good boy, Indy would do something so wrong. He would like run off the set to chase a squirrel or he would just hear a noise and go investigate it. I like to say that there's nothing a human actor could do to me now that would be more surprising than the things Indy did while cameras were rolling and he was supposed to be doing something else.

I think embracing the absurdity and like, that's part of the fun of this. That's definitely how I moved ahead with it all. And I think being okay with having an X factor is both what made it fun and what made it possible. Well, that's a good answer. Excellent answer. So obviously you're still considering options for what you're going to do next. You already have something else written. I do. I do have another script. Same person I wrote Good Boy with. We've got another film.

um essentially in the hopper we're working to get made right now i don't know how much i can say other than that it is a perspective driven yeah don't involve an animal don't don't uh jinx it like just do not jinx it um but good so that's exciting to know we're gonna get so hopefully we're gonna get something else it must be it must be great a great feeling though like you know this movie has had one hell of a year from uh of course premiering in march to south by

to a theatrical release, you know, through RLJ. And then finally, now the perfect stock and stuffer. IFC. Yeah. Yes. Yes. But still, like just having that experience is amazing. It's been a wild year. This time last year, I had found out we were getting into South by and I actually had to finish the movie. You know, the movie wasn't colored and the score wasn't finished and the sound design wasn't done.

If there's anything that's going to light a fire under your ass, it's like, oh, shit. Exactly right. Yeah. No, I mean, and that is a good lesson is, I mean, for anyone who is considering when do I submit my film to a festival? It is absolutely okay to send in work in progresses. And that as a motivating factor to actually finish something can be very good. It also can be exhausting because I am...

I'm tired after it's been literally a year of just sprinting to get the movie done. That's not a complaint. It's been very, very fun, but a wild ride indeed. Well, is there anywhere people can follow you or you on the socials and all that stuff? I'm very much not on social media. The film has a social, which is goodboy.film, where you can see lots of great pictures of Indy on the journey and news and updates about us. But no, I kind of...

got off social media while I was in the midst of the Odyssey-like filming portion of this as a way to kind of maintain focus. Stay off of it. Don't do it. It seems like the way to go. Yeah, especially if... If so many people have already seen and will be watching this movie without you needing to be on there, do not go on there.

Yeah. Yeah. People are like, would you want to get back on social media? It's like, I don't know. Should I start smoking cigarettes too? Like, it just sounds like a bad question. Uh, well, Joe, where can people go? And after that, well, people can find me smoking cigarettes on the Joe Lynch.

And yeah, I never got on social media because I was too cool for it. No, I'm at Adam underscore F and underscore green on Instagram. I don't really look at it all that much these days, but I will be again someday soon because 2026 is going to be a busy one.

So, all right, Ben, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. Oh, wait, and there is a Blu-ray coming. You don't know the release month. I don't have a date for anyone yet, but yes, we're actively working on the Blu-ray extras and all that good stuff. So watch Good Boy on Shudder over the holidays and then...

ask for a Blu-ray of good boy, even just an IOU for that in your stocking and you'll get it when it comes out. You definitely want to see this movie, especially if you are also a filmmaker, whether you're aspiring or already doing it. you watch this. No excuses.

You absolutely can do it. If Ben pulled off what he pulled off so well, you can do it. You absolutely can. And sorry to your dogs in advance because they're all looking like, I don't want to be a star. Sorry. I can't do more than two takes. I got a good idea. Good boy with a goldfish. There's got to be a way to train a goldfish, right?

I heard my favorite one that someone pitched because a lot of people are like, well, the next logical one is like good cat. And then there was a person at South by who was like a very Austin, Texas person who was like, no, no, it's parrot. Parrot is the next logical animal. It's, you know, it's kind of like, you know, rear window, they can't leave their cage, but they can talk. So that's the way to go. Any parrot owners out there, that idea is free. Do what you want.

Yeah. Yeah. Ben looks forward to seeing all your ripoffs of what he did, but, but he's not doing it. Yeah. Yeah. But the goldfish, a ferret, you know, go for it. What if the ferrets were with a guy in like kind of medieval times or whatever? And they just like, Oh wait, that was beast master. Yeah, sorry. All right. Well, while I work on that, we will see all of you next year with another episode of the movie crypt with Adam and Joe.

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