It's the Movie Crypt! And welcome to another edition of the Movie Crypt. I'm Adam Green. I'm Joe Lynch. We are recording this episode on... thursday april 24th 2025 and i'm excited and you want to know why Why? Because I have a feeling that next week's episode is going to start with a big announcement.
You're just saying that so that I will commit to whatever date you want to do for York-a-thon. Boom! There! I just ruined it. You're the holdout. Alright, but this is... Yeah, because you never know, I might move. Oh, God. This is going to run the week of, like, May 19th. May 19th. May 19th. So if we haven't announced it by then, we're in trouble because it's coming up soon. So next week.
We're going to announce Yorkethon 9. We had to postpone it for those of you who might have missed it because I was gone for a few months shooting, but it's happening. This summer, we will announce the date next week. When does Joey Khan happen? I will just take half the money from the dogs and give it to you. Oh, then... Yorkie-thon 9 is going next week. Some asshole is going to post that on social media, and someone's going to believe it, and yeah, Joey-thon. That'll be the weekend after.
done obviously I'm gonna tell I'm not gonna show up at all and tell everybody just hold off a week it'll be like yes yes donate to the dogs it'll be like fuck those dogs Fuck them dogs. That's my slogan. For our patrons out there, they've already heard, but there is a new member of the Aeroscope family now that moved into the office.
You're telling the story. This is the 30 second version. Mystery guest, we're so sorry. So, as you guys know who've listened to the show for a long time, I make friends with rabbits, possums, squirrels, all kinds of things. and they come in the office and hang out and my it was like my first night back and uh a cat showed up and just like came up to me and rolled over on on I thought her in that moment, just because the cat was so friendly, I'm like, it must be a her.
and I'm scratching her belly and I took a video from my wife and you know we already have too many pets at home but I was like look at the new friend I just made And I'm like, she's so friendly. And she just writes back, she? And then I look. And this cat has the biggest balls I've ever seen. How could you have missed it? I don't know. Now that's all I see. Were they like swinging around the corners and stuff? Like you have to see it to believe it.
You're gonna have to post it now. Growing up, my family had a Doberman named Zachary. who had giant balls and as Zachary got older he had trouble getting up the stairs and it was always unfortunate if you were the one who got stuck behind Zachary trying to get up the stairs because you had these giant balls in your face. I hope your family is going to be really excited to listen to this episode. Skip ahead 40 seconds.
But my friend James, I wish it was my joke. It wasn't. My friend James one day, we're walking up the stairs, stuck behind Zachary, and he points and he goes, Thundernuts. and so Zachary became Thundernuts for the last like two years of his life and even my parents thought it was funny but then my grandmother one night who didn't have the Boston accent said stop calling him Thundernuts and it's like it's not Thundernuts it's
Anyway, meet Thundernuts, too. He's an orange cat. He's missing his tail. Something happened to that before he met me. But, yeah, he has decided he lives here now. new thing. And that's all the housekeeping. I have Thundanuts. You have to post a picture. You really do. And with that, now Julia's family, you can come back to the podcast. All the fans can come back. You're welcome back.
Because we've got a lot to talk about. Everyone listening right now isn't like, please make Thundanuts t-shirts. Oh, you know what we can make is Thundanuts truck nuts. They're like the ones that people... You don't have to say anymore. But they're fuzzy. Why did you, when you went, the hair shot out of your jazz hands? This is one of the reasons why maybe we should convert to video, because all of this is just video gold. I know. It is.
Well, we're very excited because this next filmmaker has, and correct me if I'm wrong, this is your first feature, correct? Correct. Okay. See, I did my research. But this is a film that, man... It's not so often that a horror film can give you all the feels.
And the surrender is definitely one where, maybe it's just where I am in my life, but watching this... So many people are going to be able to relate to this in so many different ways. And, you know, there is a current trend where, like, they're calling it, you know, like, um... If you're not calling it elevated horror, you're calling it trauma porn. And this is a film... Wait, is that a real thing? Yeah. Well, at least that's what the Twitters or the Xs or the Blue Skies say now. But...
I think it is, if you really, we can dive into this once we announce our guest. I think this is something where it's obviously reflecting the times that we live in right now. But, Trauma is universal, and The Surrender is a film that I think is going to really affect you guys. Please welcome to the Movie Crypt, director, writer, Julia Madden.
Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here. I'm excited to dive into this. I just want to jump back to that. Thundernuts? No, trauma porn. No more thundernuts. Trauma porn. So would like Pet Sematary, if that had come out now, be considered... In the last couple months, every single review...
for every single fucking horror movie is like, you know, this current trend of trauma horror or trauma porn. But grief has always been part of horror. It always, always, like, since the inception. And it's such fertile ground for stories like this. And everyone can relate to it. Because even if, God willing, you haven't gone through it yet, you're going to. It's part of life. You're going to lose people. And it's so hard. And there's always that.
What if there was a way to keep them? And that's why I think, to me, Pet Sematary was so scary. Because when you were a kid, do you remember the original paperback cover with Church, the cow? Oh, yeah. and it was like it was the reddish one right yes and there was that quote from stephen king like the only time i like a book kept me up and then i couldn't sleep i was so scared that's the least of what he said later on where he said he like threw it out because it was too fucked up
Remember that? I remember as a kid I had just gotten into Stephen King. I think the only books I had read at that point was maybe like the fog and maybe, maybe Carrie, I don't, I don't remember. What about the fog? Not the fog. The mist. The mist, the mist. Sorry, sorry, sorry. One of those. The steam. The smoke. I thought Pet Sematary was going to be about Pat's coming back from the dead and killing people.
That's what I expected. I had no idea it was going to be what it actually was and then we all remember Mary Lambert's film. But that incredible sequence of Gage getting hit by the truck without actually showing it, but seeing everything else.
And Louis Cage being there on his knees, like, no! White flash, white flash, white flash, yeah. Just, like, you can't not feel that. And I think that's what makes movies like yours so... special and because it's not something that, oh, that's such a 2025 move. You know what I mean? It's not like part of a slasher genre. Or like when we had on the filmmaker who did It's What's Inside.
Did you see that movie? Great movie. Greg did an amazing job. You couldn't make that movie five years ago because the language and the technology and everything that was involved in it wasn't really around or wasn't prevalent enough to be able to tell a story about that. Whereas yours, What's funny is that it was funny, my wife and I were talking about it afterwards. You could take that movie and put it into a Robert Eggers version of it and put it in...
colonial Maine or whatever and it would still resonate the same way. Maybe some technology would change or maybe like the costumes for the flashbacks would change but everyone has or will go through the trauma. of losing a parent. And so I want to throw this down to you since we've been talking so fucking much and usually it's my fault. I'm the one usually jibber-jabbering away.
Where, I'm sure you've answered this question a million times, but where did this come from? Did it come from a personal place? Oh, absolutely. This was an incredibly... This was loosely inspired by what my mother... away. Thank God she did not try to resurrect him. That part is not based on reality.
You know, that whole experience was so surreal caregiving for him because I feel like it's something that we don't talk about a lot in society. There's so much secrecy and... fear to discuss it it's amazing like people are afraid to even ask like how are you doing and instead they just
just kind of step back and you feel really alone and isolated when you're going through that. And so I wanted to... I wanted to draw attention to some of the specifics and some of the details that I didn't know about before going through that. help others who are going through the same thing, because I think it can be very isolating and lonely, and sometimes seeing a movie can help you feel less alone when you're going through that. That was something that I resonated with, because my wife...
grandfather died and now everyone's fighting over the house and her older sister because it seems like Becca's parents are going to be the ones that are going to move into the house her sister's like I can't I can't go there because she was the one who was caregiving for her grandfather for a year. So she said little details were things that she was growing up with when she was talking about a windowsill.
and how when she was a little kid, that brought her joy because she saw the windowsill in one light, and then... a year of being there with her grandfather and watching him slowly die, the narrative completely changed in the room. So I was thinking about that a lot while watching the movie because you do have these flashbacks that happen in the same house. and how the narrative of the house changes for these characters who...
At this point now, they're kind of walking from the father's bedroom to the kitchen, and that has a completely different visual structure to it. I was really struck by that. I thought that was a really smart thing to do, whereas you could have. broken out from that space, you know, or something that I'm sure our producer was like, does it have to be in the house the whole time? sure you don't want to move outside more yeah exactly um so never
go outside. As someone who just did an entire movie outdoors again, I don't know why I do it. Never do that. Just keep everybody in a nice room. Maybe a soundstage. So much easier. So much easier. So much easier. That was a practical house, right? Yeah, that's actually the Bodie house at Descanso Gardens. No way. How the fuck did you get that? Oh my God. We got so lucky. Our producer level holder is like on the board there. So we got us a fantastic deal.
and they let us upstairs, which is normally not open to the public. Everyone can tour the downstairs space, but upstairs, they were like, oh. you know it needs to be renovated it's a little worn down and we're like oh we probably won't be able to use it but then we took a tour and we're like oh my god this is amazing can we use this and they were wonderful so we got very lucky with that location holy shit I mean because the the house becomes a character also did they read the script before
demons incantations you know like on paper because you know for those who don't know about the film you know it's dealing with a mother and daughter who are dealing with the slowly kind of oncoming death of one's husband another's father and the lengths that they will go to try to keep him alive or keep you know or bring him back from the dead and there's a lot of
incantation stuff there's a lot of ceremonial stuff that's going on and the beautiful use of lighting and even just location for when you start going into the procedure of bringing him back from the dead. Watching it down, I'm going like, it must have been so much fun, but also so complicated to go like, how the fuck are we going to shoot that stuff? Oh yeah. What was that like? I mean, oh boy. First of all, the house, the Bodie house, it's massive and there is no...
So we had to bring everything in. We brought everything in and our production designer, like the whole art department really went so above and beyond. I mean, they pulled all of that together in like three weeks. Holy shit.
especially with like the level of detail and clutter because that is something that I can't like more lately than not I've been watching movies and when you see something that you know was in a production designer or art directors, like, tupperware bin and they're just like what do you need 20s uh teenage you know teenage girl who loves emo i got you covered or you know like jail cell watch this and you can feel that there's no like
there is a level of personality that they think they're bringing to it, but it just feels like they just kind of slapped it together. Like they did a Google search and then printed everything that came up. That's always, and this is definitely just, me and a couple other people think but when it's a movie and there are like heavy metal posters
because I had them all and like that's not real that's not real that's not even the right decade when that like that's not their logo from that time that's not that like and I and I focus in on it and it drives me nuts but I it's a movie, and for the average person, they're just like, okay, this person is a heavy metal fan. Or when it's an 80s movie, and you always see the John Carpenter's The Thing poster in the background, you're going, bullshit.
No one had that poster. No one liked that movie in 1984. Everyone was going like, Oh, yeah. Or, ugh. No, there's no fucking way that that 12-year-old kid had a thing poster from there. I hate that shit. Or what a movie is very specific with a graphic in the beginning that says, like, 1986. and then you hear a song off of, like, Motley Crue's Doctor Feel Good, and you're like, didn't come out for three more fucking years. Like, you're just like, that type of stuff drives me nuts. But...
I digress. No, it's so important, though, because it breaks the reality of the situation. It takes you out of it. Even if it's for a moment, it does still make you feel like, oh, I'm And that's why I think production design is so important. Most of... I mean, so much of the furniture is like from my house and my mom's house. Hey, you know what? Little bits and pieces. But in a weird sort of way, when you do kind of siphon from your own life,
it just makes so much more sense. Like, you're on that set with that ottoman or whatever going, you know what, when I was growing up, it was over here. And it just means something, you know, as opposed to letting like a prop person just kind of put something around and it's like, that doesn't feel right because ultimately your brain is telling the story.
and if it means that you're taking these two characters and separating them by a kitchen island or whatever, you know that you've had arguments with your parents in that same type of place. and you know the proximity that's going to feel real as opposed to blocked in or...
props that are just there so that the propped person goes like, huh? Huh? Look at that dove. That dove. That means something right there. And you're like, no, it doesn't. Hold on a second. We got way too excited that we're already into like the set design. How did...
How did you get started doing what you do? When did you realize you wanted to be a storyteller? When did you realize you wanted to be behind the camera that you wanted to direct? Oh, man, that's a great question. I'm from L.A., and so I grew up in a film... And so very early on. obviously this is what I'm doing. It wasn't, because so many people that have grown up in it, a lot of times it's either the parents Or they're even going like, I'm watching...
my parents go through hell. Why would I want to be part of that? Two episodes ago, Eli Craig, Sally Field's son, his decision after high school was, I definitely want to get the fuck away. as far away from LA as possible and I never want anything to do with this industry so sometimes it goes the other way it's amazing how many people I grew up with that immediately were like I gotta get out of here as soon as they came of age but
I love films so much. Growing up on film sets, rush it's the most exciting feeling and it feels like more real than anything else but were you prepared for everything else because it's like those moments on set it's a it's a couple days really and it's fleeting it's it's all that goes into getting that
To that moment. Excuse you, Arwen. To that moment. And then there's the whole struggle afterwards. I mean, not just post-production, but the release. Is it going to be promoted? Who's putting it out? Like, is anyone going to see it? Were you prepared for all that as well? Well, see the funny thing is that growing up in the industry, I was on so many sets as a kid, but I never saw any female filmmakers, female writers, producers.
was all men. And so even though no one actually said, oh, you can't do that, the message that I very much received was like, oh, as a woman, all you can really do is be an actress in hair and makeup. Yeah, it's like those were the roles that I would see women and on set and so I was like well the thing that I relate to most is like the story and the characters and so if I want to be involved in that in some way I guess I have to be an actress because that's kind of the only role that there is.
And so I went down that path for quite a while. I went to USC theater school. It was a really rude awakening graduating and realizing that the only auditions I was getting was for rape victims and sex workers. uh what about subway attendant in spider-man 2 you could have won an oscar that's a hot shit right there oh man it was it was so demoralizing and i was like this is not what I want to do at all. I want to work on projects like telling stories that I love and that I'm passionate about.
excited about. That's the hardest thing about being an actor anyway, though, because you're beholden to the opportunities that might be out there. Unless you're writing it yourself. Exactly. oftentimes you only get sides but then even if you're lucky enough to get that opportunity and get that gig it might be a movie where you're like you couldn't pay me to watch this I have no interest in this but that's what was available
So then you start writing your own stuff to try to create your own opportunities, which I'm assuming that's what you did. Don't worry about her. She's, you know, ill. Can I go back really quick in terms of like when you were on set Was it both your parents, one of your parents? Both my parents. And my stepfather. I grew up in a very unusual household with three parents. What were their positions on set?
My mom and my dad started in accounting and my stepfather was an actor. Got it. Okay. And of course, That also was one of the reasons I got into acting was because I was so close with him and admired him so much. You know, that was kind of our connection for a long time there. The reason why I bring that up is because for so many of us who love movies
and then want to transition that love into making movies. And like you were saying, the difference between just being able to like a movie but then not really being prepared for all of the minutiae that goes into making that movie because when you're a kid or even a teenager or I always feel like it's all the way up to the moment that you first step on a set that you're
involved in not just like going to a set visit or whatever but whether it's you or even maybe someone who's directly related to the production of it. And that's the rude awakening where that's what kind of weeds people out a little bit where they go like, oh, I didn't realize there was all of that and all of those questions and all of those problems I have to solve for us.
you know, both of us went to film school and I, even if it was only five people on that set, I remember stepping on the set and then the day I stepped off, I went like, holy shit. But I also went, oh fuck, I really like this. But it changed how I saw movies from then on. Because
When you're reading, when we were growing up, there's Premiere Magazine and Movie Line and all those magazines that tell you about the process of making the movies. They don't tell you about making your days and how many days that people usually had to shoot unless it was like... part of the marketing or what have you like you know big movies where it's like oh we were shooting in the desert for eight months and
And now you sit there and go, eight fucking months. How the fucking does anyone do that? You got to see all that firsthand. Yeah. Oh, very much so. But did that change early on for you? how you saw movies, or was it much later on when you were actually behind the camera? Because I always wondered, like,
seeing behind the scenes when I was a kid, it gave me a little glimpse of it, but I was still enamored. Because remember the making of Star Wars when it was on PBS when we were kids? And they just show you the most interesting parts. And it's just like... The average movie, let's just say you had 25 days, 20 days, 18 days, whatever it was. Post was like nine months. And when you watch the making of,
You're lucky if they spend two minutes on that because there's nothing entertaining to watch. It's people sitting behind screens working. And so you just get to see what everyone, in my mind, I'm like, the director comes up with how it's going to look and what's going to happen. And then they yell, action. And everyone does what they're telling them to do. And it's like. But that's like 5% of it there's so much more that goes into it and you felt really prepared going into this well I mean
I've worked in so many different departments over the years. Smart. And of course, like... My parents started off accounting and I did production accounting for a while, so I was introduced to the most boring aspect. of film first, and if that doesn't turn me off, it's so important. It's so important. Everything depends on it. And that, you know, as boring as it was, tremendously helpful.
That was, I think, the most helpful thing in actually directing my own work because you actually have an understanding of what the numbers mean. Worked on a lot of projects. where the director did not understand what those numbers mean, and it's a disaster every time. My favorite is the production's problem. That's production's problem. No, it's your problem. You're the director. It's all your problem. This will bite you in the ass.
So yeah, all of that was working in so many different departments was the most helpful learning experience I could ask for because It made me far more realistic about my expectations and what I could expect from other people. One of my personal pet peeves when I was a production supervisor trying to help out pulling reference images is...
If the director doesn't have a clear idea of what they want, then I'm going to waste hours and days trying to pull all of these images, trying to help them figure it out. took a little time to themselves to think it through. They could save everyone's time because they have a clear vision for it. Instead of going down this road, oh, actually this, oh, actually this, and constantly changing everything.
It's a nightmare. Yeah, I've seen that where they spend whatever it might be, 90 minutes, two hours lighting. and then they're ready for a block, and suddenly the director's like, what if it's in this room? What are you doing? Like, you needed to make that decision. That's half your day now, moving everything over there now because you just had this idea.
But when you're just a fan of films, it's like, well, why not go with the better idea? Or if you need more days, shoot more days. I made the mistake once of having a world premiere that went so well. that I was so excited, I said everything in the Q&A. This is how we really did it. We only had this many days. And then, sure enough, there's reviews that are like, you could tell it was only shot in this many days.
But one of them, my favorite one, was maybe if Adam Green spent more time on his movies instead of trying to show off on how fast he can make them, it would be. Because that's what it was. They offered me 40 days and I was like, fuck it, let's do it in 15. I think I can do it. But... I learned the hard way.
that's great that it went well they still don't need to hear everything at once like there's a commentary on a blu-ray or dvd and like it's already passed being reviewed and all that other stuff then you tell them how how the sausage was made because if you say it right out of the gate which is why a lot of times, too, movies that we're working on while we're doing the show, we try to not say too much because then the audience is looking for that thing. If I was to tell a story about...
we were supposed to do this, but this thing broke and we had to do it this way, then that's what they're seeing when they see the movie. But goddamn, it's so good when the movie's finally out and be like, and just let it all out. But the curtain needs to stay closed. It's so fascinating to hear it. I love it. hearing all of those stories but you're right that's such a good point and to be honest like This whole... part of the filmmaking experience this is what's new to me it's so weird right
And you go from interview to interview having to talk about yourself and talk about the movie. A lot of times you're answering the same questions over and over again. It's like finding a new therapist because you're saying the same fucking thing over and you're like, fuck I gotta say this again but you realize oh I haven't said it to this person or to this outlet or to that audience and then you have to
muster up the same kind of excitement and do it again like you're doing right now and you're doing a great job. Yes, you are. But oftentimes, though, unless it's some giant studio release if you're not going to go sell your movie and be passionate and excited about it, nobody else is going to do it. So you have to, but that's Again, two weeks ago, we had someone on where we talked about this, where we've seen movies at festivals that were so incredible, and the filmmaker was like,
I don't want to be a car salesman. I'm not going out and doing press. I just want the work to speak for itself. Cool. And no one ever saw it. That was it at festivals, and it breaks my heart, but it is hard. You've finished the work that you do, and now you've got to go do all this stuff, and it can be... weird, especially when you got the interview where they just go through IMDB and be like, then you did this. What was that like?
Then you did this. What was that like? There's a lot of those. I hope Greg spares you from them because you have a good publicist. It's really funny. I've gotten a couple of those and it's really made me realize how much is on my imdb that i'm like that's That's what's on there. I got a special thanks on that. I don't even know what that is. I've never seen it. As a joke, I put old stuff, like old porn that I cut together when I was first out here, and that's still on there.
First question. So how did you get into in your mouth and on your face? I'm like, oh, God damn it. That's my mom was like, Joey, take those down. Those are terrible. I'm like, I can't. I tried. I thought it would be funny. I thought it would be a good conversation starter. Hey, remember when he gave me shit about Thundanuts? Just saying.
What? You just said it. Okay. What did I say? No. All right. So I want to go back because you were just talking about your other credits. And up until this point, you had mostly been doing short films. What was the biggest challenge you felt?
going from shorts to feature films everyone seems to have a different like opinion on this whether it's like oh i just needed to stretch out my stamina you know because you know with a short it's like a weekend or maybe you know kind of um scattered out over a couple weeks with a bunch of friends as opposed to a feature that is a
strict timeline or or even just the storytelling itself you know with a short you're in you're out you know you better have a whiz bang kind of ending whereas something like the surrender you really need to pay in a way that I think the film does remarkably well because by the time you get to those last 20 minutes
you're so wound up and you care about, like, what's Megan going to do, you know, which I love, you know. What was it for you to, and what was the impetus for you to say, like, all right, now it's time to go into feature stories? Oh man, I've wanted to get into future storytelling for such a long time. I feel like the biggest challenge was getting funding. Always. Like that is the most difficult thing because everyone's like...
It's one of those things when you've only done shorts, you're like, it's not that different. You're like, what? It's a feature. It's going to be like doing four shorts back to back. That's what I've already done. I made a 20 minute short and if I do that four times, that's 80 minutes and that means it'll sell to all the foreign distributors. Oh, I got this. This is also the part they don't prepare you for.
when you come through film school, you think, all right, I have a short, that's a calling card, that's going to get me an agent, and then I'm going to have this script, and everyone's going to want it, and then I'm going to direct it, and no, it doesn't go like that. It does not go like that at all.
Like every intern we've ever had at this company, I've always tried to be like, it's executives jobs. They're paid to say no, not yes. When someone says yes, unless mathematically on paper it looks like they can't lose on this, their job is to say no. And they'll still invite you in and tell you what a great writer you are and how much they love the script, but it's not for us.
Or unless you can get this flavor of the month, A-list actor or actress or whatever it might be, we can't make that. Like it's just, or we don't make, this is a small movie. This is a, you know, and like all those things that we all get. But then somehow there's people who, whether it's just sheer will, a little bit of luck, whatever it might be, you kind of will this thing together. And it's always that moment of, well, we needed this much to do this.
like my vision, but I think there's a way we could do this for what we're being offered. But you're a cast. great like so so good so real so believable so You were so, like, empathetic towards them. Well, immediately, the chemistry is, like, the second that Kate, who plays the mom, walks down the step, And then, you know, Megan goes into the room or into the kitchen and they're kind of talking back and forth. And you have that wide shot where they are on each opposite end of the frame.
and immediately even though you have that distance, the chemistry is immediately there. chemistry is something that people kind of forget nowadays when it comes to casting. It used to be like, okay, we're going to do, maybe we'll do self-tapes at first, or maybe we'll actually have people come in the room. But then it's, well, let's get chemistry reading.
that's all gone now a lot of times it's like offer only you see you on set and and people are shaking hands going like oh hi i'm your husband you know it's like it's or i'm your i'm your father i'm your mother How did you, who came first in terms of the casting and how did you find the way to really know that these two were going to have that palpable chemistry? Well we were really really lucky.
where our funding was not contingent on the casting, which it so frequently is. And that's when you get into these problems. Well, does this actor have value? I'm going through that right now. Do they have foreign value? it kills you because you're just like they're not right for the part but this is who's gonna get the funding so I guess we're doing this and
you know how it is. If you do that enough and you make enough compromises, then you get some pairings that are not great. So we were really lucky and we didn't have to do that and we could go with who was for the park. Was that partially, I'm sorry if I'm getting into the numbers, Was there a version that your producers or whoever was putting together where it's like, well, you know, if you do have the people with value, you get 25 days and X amount of money as opposed to people with value.
the rest of the actors in the world don't have value. And who is evaluating this value I'm dealing with now I'm going, where does this number come from? But also, you think about how long it takes to make a movie, those lists of who has value right now. They're totally different by the time the movie's made. Like,
It should just be like, who is a great actor? And I also understand that you want someone that audience is recognized because as much as every audience says, we want original. No, you don't. You say that, but you don't because you never go see the original stuff. You'll see every fucking... movie with a guy wearing a cape you'll see every Star Wars thing that comes out you'll see every remake of a horror thing
but when it's an original thing, you'll stream it. Like, cool, I'll check that out on stream. And it's a business, and that's why they have to be careful with how much they spend, because realistically, they're not going to get their money back. It's true. God, the first few years of this podcast, we railed against that and fought against it so much.
stop stealing movies meant like piracy but it did it it won and this is what's happening but i think to the average film fan who might be listening to this they don't really care they okay fine so i watch it on Peacock. I watch it on Shudder. I watch it wherever it is. Stuff's still getting made. I'm happy and I'm not having to go to the theater. I'm not having to buy DVDs or Blu-rays anymore. It's It's just an evolving thing, but how the movie industry sat back and watched the music industry.
get completely wiped off the map and never thought, oh, eventually, Internet's going to be high enough speed. They're going to come for us, too. We... we've got the amount of shit we would get from people who are like, you're lucky you get to make movies. If I want to steal it, I'm going to steal it. And it was always just like, you don't, it's not, look, You know, having been around this for so long,
When a movie does well, we don't get the money. No. It's not about greed. You just want to work again. You want to be able to say, that thing I did, it succeeded, and they got their money back, and then some. Now here's this other thing I want to do. But it's hard. It's heartbreaking. It's really heartbreaking. What was it like when you...
Did you believe it when you got a phone call or an email or whatever it was that said, we have the funding, we can do this? No, I did not. I got that call and was like, sure okay this isn't the president get out of here i was like i'll believe it when it hits the bank account and then it does and you go
I'll believe when I'm on set and the coffee's hot. But isn't it funny how we all have that moment too where whether you get the call that you got the gig or you got the money or we're going to Malta and there's five minutes of Fuck yes! And then, oh fuck. Like, immediately. and we've always talked about this, the second you lose that second part, where you're like, fuck yes! And then you go, eh, alright, I'll bang this movie out in Malta or I'll do this.
studio film or I'll work with this person, whatever. When you lose the butterflies in your stomach, then you know it's maybe time to hang it up a little bit. So it's good to have that nervousness in a way. I think so. I think it keeps you on your toes. I want to go back to, so how, in terms of those two actors, how did you find them? How did they find you? Was it like a... you know, like a package thing, and how did you pair them together?
So the first person we found was Colby Menefee, who is just... Oh, she's wonderful. Oh my God, I love her so much. And so unique. Yes. The choices she makes, her delivery and stuff. She's definitely one of a kind, which is so cool. Yeah, she's phenomenal. I mean, I've never seen anything like that. Her audition was insane. It was...
It's really funny, you know, coming from a background with acting, like, you always think, oh, I know how to do an audition, and, like, I'm just going to be honest to the part and do my best, and that'll be great. The thing is when you're on the other side of it and you see so many people giving the exact same reads, it's like... yeah these are all great but nothing is jumping out and she jumped out she leapt out like It was so bold and she made so many strong choices that I hadn't.
really thought of when I was writing, but as soon as I saw it, I was like, oh my god, yes! That's it! I'm sure you noticed this in editing, but she's got... a gift that a lot of actors don't have where she always knows what to be doing with her hands yes I noticed that like because because you're dealing with it right now and edit
I'm dealing with something right now. It's funny how when you're in edit, you notice you're hypersensitive to eat the smallest thing. You're so aware. Oh, look, they're hands down. Now it's up. Now it's down. Now it's up. But I don't just mean continuity-wise. that's one of the hardest things to do in theater especially too because you don't want to keep emphasizing what you're saying and you don't want to
Just shove your hands in your pockets, but your hands are really important. Bryan Cranston in Breaking Bad, he'd make choices with his hands that could tell the story without even the dialogue. It's such an interesting thing to watch, and Colby's like that. Well, I also love it. She's just so excited. but it's not like over the top, but just her face, her eyes. I remember her from Marvel's Miss Maisel. That was the first time I remember seeing her. And the boys wasn't...
Maisel was first. It was Maisel, then she did Fear the Walking Dead that I remember seeing her in that going like, wow, what a jump. And then, but both of those, well, Maisel was more comedy based. Fear the Walking Dead was definitely not. Boys, she was always hurt. She was always a great foil. And I love when you watch an actor who... You can tell as part of this TV ensemble, but then they get that role where they go like, all right, now it's my time.
And now I'm not fifth on the call sheet. I'm number one or number two. And it's all riding on me. And it's not, well, I got to make sure that I have a good punctuation or exclamation point look or line based on what the people wrote me. everything is predicated on her. And, you know, as great as Kate is as the mom. This whole movie lives or dies by Megan.
Oh, yeah. I mean, it really lives or dies by both of them. If either of them are not up to snuff, this movie doesn't work at all. And that was one of the things that producers and financiers flagged right away when we were looking for funding. They were just like, This is very execution-based. And it is. It is. Without the right cast,
It's nothing. But at least you had a base. So Colby came first. Colby came first. So at least you knew, like, okay... not that it even matters really anymore most people if you just have two good actors you don't have to sit there and go like they don't look anything like each other you know and sometimes you can put that aside when it comes to better acting but when you when you were dealing with
having colby now that was a nice base to work off of how did kate come into the fold uh so we had we had reached out to her and she she's an offer only so we're like oh okay but And I had an hour and a half Zoom call with her where we just discussed the project. And by the end of it, I was like... Продолжение следует... oh, this is Barbara. She gets it. And of course, as soon as we told Call be like,
you know, Kate Burton's interested, Colby like lost it and she was like, oh my god! I love her so much! And so we got very lucky where they're both theater actors so they were really down to come out like a week early so we could rehearse. And it made Such a world of difference. They don't live in the LA area? No, they're both in New York. I mean, Kate comes back and forth a bit, but she was in New York at the time, so we brought them both out. And it's so hard to even...
Did you have any rehearsal time? You did for the most part, right? I don't typically like to rehearse. I do. I love it. I'll do like, we'll kind of walk through a scene. And then I usually try to just improv.
And then talk about it and talk about choices or motivations or where you're coming from or how you see this going, how I'm going to shoot it, what the coverage is going to be. Because I've always feared whether it's true or not, the more times they've done it, the less honest it ends up feeling.
totally but it also depends on the actors there's some actors you could do 70 takes and that last one is so perfect like so you never really know on this we did like very light rehearsals the one i just did But again, I just don't want to over-rehearse. Oh, I completely agree with that. And that's why our rehearsal process was much more just talking through the text. And having them bond.
Because they're supposed to be mother and daughter. Having them get to know each other. So a lot of the rehearsals was just us kind of talking, getting to know each other, talking about our own experiences dealing with the subject matter. And it was really helpful because it allowed me to tweak the script. based on those rehearsals so that the characters could become more authentically them as opposed to
you know, iterations of me and my mom. Yes. What's written on the page might be terrific, but then once you know who is going to be portraying that, You have to reassess based on who it is. You have to listen to what they think, what they would say, what they wouldn't. Going back really quick to the rehearsals, a very lucky moment where I literally had to do nothing. The thing I just did, there was a scene where one character has this really horrible panic attack and the other one has to help.
And before I could say anything about how I even saw this going, she's like, I used to get really bad panic attacks and this is what I would do and blah, blah, blah. And then he's like, my ex.
was like that and what i would do to talk and i just literally that i didn't do anything i just sat back they talked it out and then they started doing it and the first time they did it i was like don't do it again save that for the day like you're done you're good like that it was so easy And then on set, the DP's like,
man, you really directed this shit. I'm like, they did it. Like, they just, like, it wasn't me. I should have taken credit. I should have been like, oh man, you know how hard that was. Yeah, anyway. But I think it just goes to show that it's really about casting.
Because the thing is, when you cast the right people who get the part, There's actually very little direction you need to give in some regards because they are so... in tune with the characters If you've done what you did and you've now tweaked it and rewritten it for them, you don't have to keep explaining to them why you're saying that or they know why they're saying it and they believe what they're saying.
Yeah, because I think that's the hardest thing for actors is like when they're doing something that doesn't feel authentic to the character and they're just like... This makes no sense. Why am I doing this?
And you're like, because I need you to for the story. Or how much do you hate when you're like, and then I'm going to need you just you can stay there and deliver that line no but I'd really like to go over here that's six more setups if you cross over no stay there and say it but sometimes you have to be like hey, the sun's going down, we have 20 minutes left, you're going to stay there and say it, because if you walk over there, we have to flip the whole world.
And usually they get it, and they're like, okay, I'll find a way to make this work. But it's always so tough when you're like, that would be cool, wouldn't it? We're not doing that, though. Yeah, but that's the thing. That's why it's more organic and it seems more natural when they actually believe what they're saying or get why they're saying it. Yes.
when you were and dealing with the fact that you had this practical house that you were working with which was essentially your proscenium arch did you find any time where like What was in your head? Because there's three stages. There's what was in your head for the longest time. Then you get the house and you go, well, that's not going to work because this isn't here and the bathroom's not over there and the bedroom is all the way down the hall now.
Oh, yeah. And then when the actors come in, sometimes... You didn't have this issue with yours, with the recent one, because they're all in a fucking box pretty much, right? Yeah, but it was harder than you would think because of certain actions that need to happen, and then they can't because of the situation. Whatever. This is all a product, though.
I don't know if you listen to You Must Remember This. It's this great podcast about the old days of certain directors and filmmakers and actors or whatever, but they talk a lot about how our... work method of filmmaking has significantly changed over the years because of budget and time and everything, where even up to maybe 15, 20 years ago, Spending half the day blocking was part of the process.
Right? Isn't that wild? I even thought, like, On the last film I did, I even tried that, where I'm like, you know what, first half of the day, because it's going to be such a huge thing, and I know that I only need a certain amount of shots. but they have to work very specifically. But I can't plan them without knowing where these actors are going to be, even though I can walk them through. Let's spend the first two hours just blocking it out. What a fucking disaster that was.
Only because there was so much to do in that day and it ended up In the end, it was fine, but No one does that anymore because you can't afford it. anymore look at how popular oners are now and like not that there weren't oners before but now we have full series where every episode is a oner yes they get to rehearse for days if not weeks because then You have like one or two chances to try to get it. Have you seen Athena? It's on Netflix.
I think it's a French film? Is that right? French? German? I don't remember what country it came from. Just watched the first 12 minutes. It's one shot. your mind will be so blown and it's one of few things on Netflix where they even have a making of for it just so you can see how they did that shot because you're like oh clearly they're just cutting together stuff they hid the cut behind no they didn't and um it's like a water that starts in one location with a riot
And then the cameras get onto vehicles and drive, get off the vehicle as it's driving, shoot something else, get back into the vehicle as it's driving, and ends up two miles away on another set, and it's still going. And it works because it's not just about showing off. It's about keeping the audience in it.
We mention this whenever we have editors on, but every time you cut subliminally, the audience is being slightly reminded they're watching a movie. But when something can just breathe and play out, you wind up that much more invested, at least. Some people think so. I definitely do.
I completely agree with that. Did you find it hard in editing? Because I'm assuming you would, especially some of those bedroom scenes, you probably ran almost the whole... scene and then you went in for your coverage did you ever find it hard to cut it all because were you ever just like fuck i just i should play this whole thing out just like this and not even because they're so good
That's a great question. I mean, the plan from the start, and I feel like this was a really wonderful luxury that a lot of people don't get. Early on in the process, I was able to bring on our editor and DP and discuss how we were going to do all this in pre-production, and it was really helpful to get us all on the same page.
and that way to have like you know our editor telling us like oh that's gonna be that's gonna be a nightmare for me if you do it that way um so but the plan had always been you know to kind of have three distinct shooting styles for each act so that they all stand out on their own. And the first... You know, the first act, we really, I did not want to do any cuts. I wanted everything to be one-ers because I just think...
Let it breathe. Yeah, it lets it breathe. It feels more grounded in reality. And I think for the subject matter, it really helps. And I don't know if you noticed, like we kept coming to very similar setups again and again to kind of build that. Oh, you need that, especially like the flashback. Yeah, we really wanted it to feel like you were
trapped with them in this space. And this is their life now. Yeah, and you don't get that if you're editing all over the place. So that was really important for the first act, and then slowly introducing.
camera movement into the second act and slowly introducing some close-ups and then of course when we get into the third act it's just like everything's moving all the time and you can get more dynamic you can have people traveling through other dimensions one thing that i i don't know if like if you've gotten this far into the interview you're probably going is this a fucking horror movie you don't even know but
It's funny, when I posted something on Letterboxd, people were like, what about that scene? Or they're like, watch out for that moment. And I'm sitting there going, which one? There's a couple of those. But it gets into the horror, and once it gets into it, it never lets up. And the movie I kept thinking about...
And maybe this will entice people who, you know, might be hearing about this going like a character piece with mom and daughter talking about their death of their old man. What the fuck? When we start getting into Hellraiser land, and especially with the circle. Oh, yeah. Very rarely do I get the creeps and turn on lights, and that was a moment where, because the darkness is so dark. When they start that circle,
and they start the summoning, if you will. The darks are so dark that when I was watching it, The rest of my place was dark and I'm like, Oh God, turn on the light over here. What were some of the influences that you had when you were, because that has a completely different aesthetic than the rest of the film does. The rest of the film feels like. Revolution Road, that Sam Mendes movie from back in the day. It feels like that because most of it is set in the house.
But then you cross over to the other side and there's some shit in there. We talk about this short all the time called Salt. that if you haven't seen it have you ever seen it no i'm gonna check it out rob savage who did host did it years ago and it's something similar but it's a short don't worry but it deals with being inside of a summoning circle
And what he was able to mine out of that was fantastic. And what you were able to do with the actors, with the lighting, with the craft, with those goddamn eyeballs, those glowing eyes, was so effective. What was some of the influences behind that stuff? Because it is. It's such a different realm of cinematic filmmaking to capture that. Well, I think there's a few things that factored into that. The first being... Personally, I think less is more most of the time.
The less you see the more your imagination runs wild and so We tried so many different versions with the VFX and special effects and found that bringing everything back, making it simpler made it stand out so much more and made it so much more impactful than when you started throwing all sorts of cool fun things and effects in there. It just got too much and it was too distracting. But for the space itself, I mean, I see the whole movie as kind of a metaphor for grief and that whole process.
And I think the thing that's so scary about death is it's that fear of the unknown. You don't know what's going to happen next. So being able to see anything in that space. is to comfort. The less you can see, the more it all just feels unknown. And that is, I think, far more terrifying all the time. We talk about the theater of the mind so much. You've seen the Hellraiser movies? Oh, yeah. So, having just re-watched them...
The first one is a masterpiece because you only get so far in that one room to where... you know hell is once they open it up in part two where it's like leviathan and all these blue corridors and everything
Honestly, I'm already checked out because you're filling in the blanks with something that is far less scary. Cool ideas, but... I still think like that opening shot in Hellraiser where he's just in that circle or you're looking at like right outside what's going on in that room and you go, there's some creepy fucked up shit going on in there. and that's all I need but with Hellraiser Uncle Frank was what was scary and what he was oh absolutely the Cenobites we
We've had this debate with other people before. The Cenobites are the most useless characters in all of horror. They do nothing. They're cheerleaders. All Pinhead does is make idle threats. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. That was a good Doug Bradley. Yeah. And the other ones just sit there and go. Yeah. Behind them, basically. And then, you know.
not oh sorry they go oh that was good yeah and then like hooks come out and do the work for them and it's like your suffering will be fucking do something like but like i don't know i just if it was any slasher villain against all of the centibites at once
the other slasher villain wins. Hands down, every single time, because they can't do anything except talk shit. That's it. And only one of them really even does the shit talking. The rest of them just you know look nice in their leather or whatever but anyway i i have a question because i want to get into the demon stuff a little bit more um were these ideas that you've always had because there's a specific design i don't want to give too much away
but there's a specific design that is... And no frontal nudity. See, I'm usually the one who always brings that up. I'm like shocked. Especially with older actors and stuff like that, that's not the easiest thing to cast and get that people are like, yeah, I want to do that. And you did it so tastefully. That is so true. It is very difficult to get people on board with that. But you don't actually see any full frontals. There's some side penis.
Really? You're talking to someone who's looked at the side of pain a lot more. It is, but mentally you feel like you've seen it, but no, he was not. Oh, I just mean the characters walking still through. Oh, that one, yes. That is true. That is accurate. Am I just seeing penis now because of the Thunder Nuts? the rest of this episode, go to Patreon. new episode every monday download it right to your podcast app