And welcome to another edition of The Movie Crypt. I'm Adam Green. I'm Joe Lynch. We are recording this episode on Monday, April 21st, 2025. Look at that, we're getting more and more topical. because we're not having to beg. in advance anymore. This episode, you know, you hear us say this a bunch. It's a long time coming. But as you'll hear when we introduce our guests, I go back like 15 years when Frozen played Sundance and Eli's movie Tucker and Dale vs. Evil played that same year.
What a lineup that you're looking back. You'll hear about that in the conversation. But his new movie, Clown in a Cornfield, comes out in theaters this coming weekend from when this episode is going to drop. I think this drops on May 5th. So it'll be opening in theaters this weekend, Friday, May 9th.
if you're a horror fan which you probably are if you listen to this podcast this is your jam yeah it's up your alley it's a fucking fun slasher killer clown slasher movie all the references and it just feels it's like Halloween sort of seeps through this movie. It's a warm sepia hug. Yes. A warm sepia hug.
but the location just everything about it you're gonna wish that you did see it on the big screen at least once so definitely go this weekend hollywood therapy is back this week we got some great questions from you guys for viewer mail It's like a good old-fashioned episode. It really is. And, man, the last half hour especially, as you guys know, having listened to this show, some of you for 12 years now would... Oh, wait a minute.
I think on the day this episode drops, it's our 12th anniversary. Yay. Yay. I need to know this now. The Movie Crypt. If you ask AI, it'll probably tell you. May 6, 2013. So tomorrow, on the day that this drops, is our 12th anniversary, so happy anniversary. Happy anniversary. And today, being April 21st, is... our co-host Arwen's 14th birthday my god very exciting because last week I thought we were gonna have to say goodbye to her like she was
bad in a bad way. She's doing better now? She is fully bounced back. Obviously still gripped with terror because she's 14 and who knows what could happen. But Arwen is doing great and enjoying her birthday. And Tasha and I are taking her to Bob's Big Boy tonight. Oh, really? Because it's one of her favorite restaurants to go to. What does she got?
Whatever we get, usually. Oh, so she just sits at the bottom and just waits for a scrap? Yeah, basically. Wait, what do you guys get? I mean, I usually get breakfast stuff if I go there, but Tasha's a little more adventurous, so... I don't know. We'll see. We'll have to tell you all about it next week because I'm sure everyone's just dying to know what we ate. I am. Bob's a big boy. Maybe we'll sit in David Lynch's table. No, we usually sit outside because we have the dog. Yeah.
Anyway, um, also, uh, very, very soon we hope to have a date for Yorkie Thon 9. Obviously we had to postpone it off of Christmas because I was gone filming, but just stay tuned because in the coming weeks we hope to make a formal announcement about when we're going to be doing it most likely early in the It's summer. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. But it's coming soon.
All right, and with that, here is our terrific conversation with filmmaker Eli Craig. Again, Clown in a Cornfield opens this weekend in theaters across America. Definitely go see it. And take it away, Adam. No, you're not going to take it away. That's going to sound weird. So I'm going to throw this out there. Today's secret word is, bully a bass. Y'all get it later. So our next guest, I have some history. Because if you go back 15 years to Sundance,
2010. Just like yesterday. It does, but at the time when you're doing something like that, obviously you haven't seen any other movies when you first arrive. Thankfully Sundance was really good about making sure that the filmmakers could get seats to the other films, but the lineup for the midnight section that year... was buried with Ryan Reynolds. Oh, yeah. Splice. Oh, shit. Our good friend Vincenzo Natalia. And then... the violent kind.
Oh, what a lineup. My movie Frozen. Whatever. But my favorite movie of that year was Tucker and Dale vs. Evil. And I, the texts that I got, I was so... fucking floored with that movie i was laughing my ass off i was cheering we remember you took me to go see it at the chinese i think when it like finally came out i think our guest, sorry.
was there as well and uh man that was like a fucking rock show that night that was a great screening if for some reason you still haven't seen it you need to fix that right away if you like slasher movies if you like comedies if you just like
The only thing I can compare it to and it's not the same was like the first time I saw Behind the Mask, The Rise of Leslie Vernon. Well, with a little bit of Shaun of the Dead in there for good measure. But just taking the slasher tropes and completely turning it on its head in a way that you don't expect. But now he's back with a new movie that's based on a very popular book called Clown in a Cornfield. Please welcome his first time on the Movie Crypt, Eli.
All right. That was exciting, you guys. I feel like that was an episode of SmartList where you guys didn't tell each other who was going to be here. Oh, no. I was so... Dude, we've been, you are one of those directors that we've been getting incessantly over the years. When's Eli coming on? We got to talk about Tucker and Dale. When that movie came out.
You know, because I had Wrong Turn 2 come out, and some guy came up to me, I can't remember where, and was like, Dude, did you see Tucker and Dale? That movie totally poked holes in all of your shit. And I'm like... okay like i don't know what that means really but all right you know and then we went to go see it i'm like oh man he totally poked holes in all of my shit
I appreciate that. One of the things that that movie, and I think all of your work, even Little Evil and stuff, there is and appreciation for all the tropes so that By the point that you get to actually making something new out of it It's more subversive and you and the audience feels like they're in on the joke Maybe more blatantly with Tucker and Dale, but like even with clowns in a cornfield, you know, I mean, you know with
Adam's book was already there, but you were able to kind of take it to the next level by making it look so good and obviously get those kind of performances. that you were poking holes in everybody's shit in a much more slick sort of way. Yeah, I mean, I don't try to destroy your career or anyone else's with picking holes. Oh, don't worry, the industry is doing that already. I know, I know.
i don't have to help um i do enjoy like reversals you know and i think when i started out in the industry i was like i'm a comedy guy like i i made some comedy films out of USC film school and The shorts I made with my brother and stuff even just growing up were like comedy sometimes with like a dash of blood.
and so i always felt like okay what's what's the angle what's the funniest way to get into a movie and it was really like like tucker and dale to me was like a comedy very comedy first horror and the thing i love is just taking people's expectations of what a movie's gonna be, and the tropes. I mean, you'll notice, like, Tucker and Dale, it opens with the college kids, like, and you're like, okay, this is the group of idiots we're gonna follow through this movie.
And then like, you know, Tucker and Dale pass in the truck and they look out the window and you're like, oh boy, those are the killers from Texas Chainsaw Massacre or Wrong Turn or whatever. And then there's this moment when they're in the... in the cabin or in the gas station and we just we reverse it and all of a sudden we're with Tucker and Dale and it's really fun to see audiences reaction like oh this is not what the movie is
Yeah. And, you know, so I was trying to do the same. I did with Little Evil, the same thing. And then with Clown in a Cornfield, that, but with like really staying in the genre of horror, like. fully with moments of comedy and a lot of action, but like not breaking totally down the genre of like horror and exiting it. Going back to the script for Tucker and Dale.
When you first started sending that around, whether it was through an agent, a manager, however it was being submitted, What was the initial response? I know so the movie came out in 2010 but like back in 2000 Fuck, 2004. when i was going around with the first hatchet the response like no one knew what to make of it because they're like it can
It should either be funny or really gory, but you shouldn't do both because it's too hard to market. No one knows what to do with this. So either get rid of the comedy or tone it down. It's hard to get that all out on the page. No, but like people, they didn't know what.
to make of it like the now famous story was a big studio their rejection letter said The writing is great, but this movie will not get made because it's not a remake, it's not a sequel, and it's not based on a Japanese one, which we turned into the tagline for when it did festival. But at the time, because this is like early 2000s, that's what was making money was remakes, sequels, and Japanese J-horror remakes.
But when you went out with Tucker and Dale, did you face that same sort of uphill battle or did people get it right away? Yeah, no Adam like as soon as I send something out in the market like basically it's a bidding war between Warner Brothers and Universal Try to throw as much money as they can at me. I usually say no I could do it for less
Yeah, it's just been so easy for me. It's crazy. Okay, totally facetious. It is unbelievable. You want to shake people and say, you know why can't you see this movie uh i came out of film school uh i guess sort of had a short film and was able to actually this is a funny story we have a minute can we talk a little bit about like graduating from film school please yeah where did you go to film school so i i okay backstory backstory back let's go back um
We go way the hell back. And I came out of a film industry family. a show business family from LA and I was like, get me the hell out of Los Angeles. I'll do anything to not be in this industry and to not grow up in LA anymore. So I went to college in Boulder, Colorado. I got a degree in psychology and I became like an outward bound instructor and then like a mountain guide and all these things and really around the age of like 22.
years old, 22, 23, I was like shoveling snow off of roofs in Crested Butte and then spending my summers like guiding mountaineering trips in South America. climbs like Aconcagua and Denali and all these things. And I just was like,
This is, I'm really having a lot of adventure in life, but the pay as I'm shoveling this roof, you know, is just brutal. And I'm not that good at it. I'm looking at these guys who could shovel like, just massive quantities of snow off this roof and i'm like man and i'm getting grief all the time so um i'm like you know what i've always loved writing i've always loved um
performing in like the little plays and everything my brother and I put on and I moved back to LA and like got an agent as a as an actor they had me do some reading and you know I was pretty young and I looked very young so they were like you can play high school you're 23 24 doesn't matter so I was in like carry to the rage And I was in some other like bad, pretty bad like teenage movies. And then I got to work with Clint Eastwood on Space Cowboys. And I actually played young Tommy Lee Jones.
Which was surreal because I looked nothing like Tommy Lee Johnson. I think when they hired me, I had a goatee, like a full goatee, which they made me shave. And I visually remember showing up to set and then being like, oh.
Okay, well, you know, we'll make it work. And funny stories on that set too, but the long and short of it is I was always writing and I was trying to figure out how to get to like tell my stories from a writer or as a director and i just had no idea really and i remember sitting next to clint eastwood and saying He leaned over to me and he says, like, so what is it you really want to do?
And I said, you know, to be honest with you, just watching you work is like an inspiration and someday I just want to do what you're doing. And he looks at me as if there's no hope for me. And he kind of pulls these sunglasses down and he gives me this Clint Eastwood stare like through my soul. And he goes, then go do it. And then he turns around and Clint Eastwood doesn't say action. He goes, go, go ahead.
And so he yells, he turns around and one smooth motion, go do it. And then he goes, go ahead. And the scene begins and I'm not in that scene. And I was just like. holy shit, like, he's right. I should just go do it. What am I waiting for? I don't even want to be an actor. Wait, so wait, so your life got directed by Clint Eastwood? Yes! He made his day. Oh, Jesus Christ, that's too far. Get off his lawn, Christ.
And then I was like, well, you know, I don't know how one goes and does it, but I did have a screenplay I had written and then had like option to Tom Cruise's company at the time. So that was pretty cool. I was in this Clint Eastwood film. I was like, still kind of a good calling card. And I also was panicking about being an actor. And I was like, man, I don't, the last thing, I left LA and I left like my whole life so I could define myself and not be defined by like other people.
And now I'm starting to be an actor and people want to do these. You always get magazine articles and stuff and you're posing and you feel like a total fraud. to make me feel like even more of a fraud because this is a more of a personal interview and I'll never I'll reveal this to you guys because you guys seem like friends of mine so you know I grew up I'm Sally Field's son
And they would write, you know, Eli Craig, comma, Sally Field's son, you know, like trying to act. I'm so glad you're bringing this up, though, because So many people assume, well if you have family in the business, especially somebody as
prestigious as Sally Field, well then it's easy for you because every door is just going to open and it's not true. If anything, it works against a lot of people. It really can work against you and it especially works against you if you're not willing to open any of those doors because you feel like you're a fraud opening those doors.
And it took me until much later, as old as I am now, to realize, wait a minute, everybody fights like mad to get a connection in this business. And you meet people in LA hungry to meet. Somebody that can help them get in the door and use those connections and there I am like No, I won't use any connections and so mostly it meant I wouldn't work And and but it did allow me to kind of define myself really and now I'm proud of the way I did it. It was just it was a lot of suffering along the way.
But I went back and then I was like following Clint Eastwood advice and a little bit my mom's was like If you want to tell stories, but you don't want to be the face of them, and you don't want to be defined by other people, You know, write your own movies. You've got to write your own stuff. And then you gotta see if you can direct it. And so I applied with the work that I had that was sort of random. I just wanted to try doing other things in life.
But I applied to USC graduate school because I already had a degree in psychology and English, which got me nowhere. And then I applied to graduate school at USC. And when I got there, everybody was so hungry. And the competition, it was really the competition that made me go, oh.
like i want to be better than all these people and and work with them and be collaborators uh secretly take them the out when we always talk about this when we both joe and i went to film school And the first day was the look to your left, look to your right. Like almost none of you will ever actually make any money working in this industry. And of course we're going to not me. Yeah, he's talking to everyone but me.
You have to believe you have a chance, but it is kind of hard when you have to size up. Oh man, there's so many other people who want this just as bad as I do. So and you got to somehow stand above by. But we say this all the time, like acting is so hard because you're beholden to the opportunities
that you might be able to get a chance to audition for, and it might be for a movie that you would never in your life want to watch. But that's the only shot you have, so you got to take it. And so it's always like... try to define your own voice and especially as a writer trying to write things to sell them There's some people that are brilliant at that. I could never do that. So I always, you know.
you're very similar in your work from everything we've seen, but you have like a voice. It's like, this is your personality. This is what you're into. And it always shines through and it shines through. And hopefully other people are going to respond to that. And thankfully they have.
Exactly. I mean, that was the trauma for me after everybody always feels like Tucker and Dale must have been this huge calling card. But it was this also like an existential crisis for me because I was so sure of the film and I thought, Everybody's going to see how this is the next cult horror movie.
I wanted to be Evil Dead 2. And it kind of had a little bit of a taste that in film festivals, and this is obviously after I graduated, still want to tell the film school story. But just segueing to this is... is that it was a real double-edged sword. And when it didn't really do well,
Amongst people at large all the studio people that we're talking about could say see I told you yes, yes Or doesn't work, but they never gave it a chance they give it no marketing No, and it's all stuff. That's like out of your control. It's like I'm talking to myself
You do that a lot. I know. We're going to go back to the film school story, I swear. But for anybody who is just starting, who's listening to this and... your movie gets into festivals, whether it's something as great as Toronto or Sundance or South by whatever. Then you do this like festival run. I'm sure it was the same for Tucker and Dale. Once Sundance accepts it, every festival just comes calling for it.
And then you, you go to these festivals and they're packed crowds of people who fucking live. They're going versus war. They're already primed. Yeah. They want to like the things they're seeing and you're getting these amazing reviews and responses. But then the movie comes out to the masses and if it's not marketed and it's just on the hype from festivals and whatever websites or magazines are talking about it and whatever you're willing to go do.
It doesn't really have a chance. Yeah, the other quadrants don't care about the festival wreaths. No, it's a bubble. Your first time through it, it's such a heartbreaking thing because you're like, what happened?
And then back in our day, when local newspapers are doing reviews, like somebody was assigned on a Tuesday morning to go watch like Hatchet 2. they didn't see the first one, they don't like those kinds of movies, and then you get this review that's just like, this movie's fucking ridiculous, and it's so stupid, and it's like, and it's like these little daggers, and it is, it's like, an existential crisis because you're just like, what happened? Was his name Owen Gleiberman?
The old Owen Gleevern. That name sounds really familiar. He was Entertainment Weekly's guy for the longest time, and now he's Variety. I don't remember the name, but my favorite was either LA Weekly or... LA Times, or maybe it was, I don't know, it was a bigger one. But their review of Hatchet 1 was so scathing, where it was like, no matter what, because it was personal, if I'm remembering correctly. I've got to try to find it.
Personal, yeah, yeah. Because it was like, no matter how many gore-loving fanboys support this movie, Adam Green will never get to make his sequel. And so at the premiere of Hatchet 2, I was going to read it. And the publicist, right before I was going to go on, is like, don't read that. And I'm like, but it's funny. She's like, he's here. And I'm like, that makes it funnier. And so I just sort of summed it up and he laughed and stuff, but like,
Why would you say that in a review? You never know what's going to work and what's not going to work. The reason why I say that is because Owen, he was the first person to review out of South by Southwest.
clown in a cornfield and i don't know personal dude like it's funny i read that i was like huh who did he piss off yeah well there is this thing and i wonder if if you guys feel the same way there is a little bit of like Wow, like some people fucking hate me and I I don't have any idea why but I do feel like there is like a certain takedown
crowd. I think we all feel like that at some points. It has more than other though. Sometimes there's ones where it's like did they even watch the movie it's like they already kind of had a predisposed because now like more than what that was the same sorry the same review i'm talking about said uh how many times have we seen this movie a bunch of teenagers have sex do drugs and get killed one by one There's no teenagers in Hatchet. There's no sex. There's no drugs.
and they get killed in fucking tubes like he literally didn't watch it but they go in like like with their knives sharpened for whatever reason and that kind of baggage isn't fair but don't you guys think this genre is like a punching bag for them to beat up? Because if it was like a Holocaust movie, they can't say anything back.
So what you're saying is we need to make a Holocaust horror film? I've been saying that forever. World War II, baby. Remember when it was all World War II movies? Like, another World War II movie can't possibly work. It works. Everything. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, look, I think now it's like those are almost badges of honor, especially when you have like for me just quite recently bringing that up is.
that was like the first review in and of course it stings especially when it's personal like he has no creativity and is basically useless lump of flesh i know it's funny too because i remember when that came out too and wasn't it like the next day and
that always happens where you come off of your South by premiere or like, cause that happened to me at South by two, where it's like, fucking as good as a fucking night could be and then you wake up in the morning you're like here we go and then the first time you're like middling at best fuck well yeah and you're like is it is because also when you're seeing it with an audience the first time it takes a few
uh watches with an audience to be like oh okay this stuff's working right yeah and especially when you see it with like a south by audience i like take it with a grain of salt like these are really amped up fans and um and there's a part of me like being a director i think There's a certain degree of Well, at least I think the good ones, but there's a certain degree of negativity.
that comes with it because you're always looking for problems you're like how do i solve this problem you're looking at the problem that is the script and at the problem that becomes your film and you're you're always trying to not lie to yourself
Not fool yourself about what is really in front of you. And... you know when you're shooting a scene like maybe this isn't working you want to put your head in the sand and be like everything's great everything's great we're going to make our day everything's perfect But then you know some little nagging voice in the back of your head is going, nope, this isn't working. There's something off. And you kind of have to dig at it until you're like, I know what it is. I can fix it.
and you want to catch it early sometimes you don't sometimes you're in your edit and you're like god damn it i really want this scene to work but it doesn't what can i do to make it work um down to the like there's still frames there's still moments i want to change in the film you know what i mean and um And so you can't lie to yourself and then you...
you also you also like then you have a great premiere and you're kind of like oh these guys are all bullshitting me like this is all they don't really believe this and uh and then when you get a crowd you're like all right this is probably more in line with what i'm gonna get i'm gonna get beat up about it And now like it's really funny to get that review and then like one other just atrocious review.
And like out of 30 reviews, those are our two bad ones. And we have like 28 positive. But you don't care about the positive ones. No, no. It's Owen Gleiberman. I'm going to make a film for him. I'm going to try to make him happy. Someday, Owen, someday. Let's go back to the film school story, though, before we get too far ahead. Well, yeah, I mean, we, I was at USC with a bunch of, you know, and USC is very, it's very much the kind of film school that is a bit corporate and they kind of decide.
especially in undergrad, but in graduate school too, like who's going to be the next big director, right? They kind of make that decision internally and then they funnel all of USC's mighty, mighty funds. to a few people and you're supposed to work crew on those sets and it's great because you learn how to do absolutely everything. And my job was often, which should not have been my job, but I was often the line producer.
And I would also do you line produce and then you're the boom operator and then you're dolly grip and everything. But dealing with the budget taught me a ton. But like, like I wasn't getting. the attention really out of USC and I wasn't getting to make the stuff I wanted that had any budget behind it. So I had to go out and raise money like with these similar situation for three other friends of mine. and
We made our own short films. They were like, you could elect to make a graduate thesis film, but you had to finance it. And so, you know, wrote everybody I could find and got together some money and went and made this short film called The Tao of Pong. And then I realized like the USC screening was so boring and everybody, they'd get agents and stuff to come, but by the time your film would show up, they'd be either out of there or just like blah.
board and and so we came up with the thing we're like you know what guys let's just start our own festival and we'll do it in LA so everybody can go. We didn't get into all the big festivals, we're gonna make it happen. And so we started this thing called the Big Shorts Film.
and then we said you know what but the first annual like nobody will come if it's the first annual let's just call it the third and we send you invites all over town and to agents and managers and we said the third annual and i think we we even included like previous shorts included so-and-so's like big these breakout filmmakers
and totally didn't play their film. We just made up a thing. And then we were able to rent, I think it was called the Pacific Theater at the time, but it had closed down, it was in Hollywood, and it was like a 2000 season. And my wife at the time was working as a bartender at the Wiltern. And she said, guys, On this Sunday night, we're going to go over, take our shit over to the movie theater, and we're going to serve tons of drinks, and we're going to make a party out of it.
so my wife was like bartending it and she had a role in the Dao Pong. And I got my first agent out of that. And the agent was like, what do you have next? What do you want to do next? And I co-wrote one script called Man Camp, which is really straight comedy, as you can imagine, like a bunch of dudes. Out in the woods, like, you know, trying to become men. And send it around town. There was some interest, but nobody bit.
And then it was Tucker and Dale. And my friend from USC, Morgan Jurgensen and I co-wrote it. and we did a similar thing like spected around town and got nothing like crickets and uh we would go to this these meetings and like you say um i'll always remember this one and i i someday i need to place
a name, because I've kind of spaced, they've merged together a little bit. I always remember, yeah, this guy, we're at a, some meeting, and he has like a keg of beer, and he's probably, like, I'm like, maybe 28 even I don't know maybe I was 29 years old but this kid was like 21 right and he's like do you guys want a beer or something before we get going to the meeting it's like at 10 a.m. wow
Sure, whatever. No, I'm good, actually. And then he sits down and he's like, so, love Tucker and Dale, the script. I don't see it as a movie, but I'm curious what else you guys got. What did he see it as? He saw it as a script, like a sample. Oh, got it. Okay. You know, a good sample. And that's what I said. I sat with Morgan and I was like, I'm going to get this fucking movie made, Morgan. I don't know how we're going to do it, but you produce it.
I'll figure out how to get the money and direct it and we began this quest for for money and I'm so glad you know sometimes the failures of the business define you more than the successes Yeah, and the rejection fuels you because like That one rejection from a major studio that said it's not going to get made because it's not a remake, a sequel, or a Japanese one. I was like, that's exactly why this needs to exist.
and then it was like well we're just going to put this together ourselves somehow and it always sounds good that day but then you realize I don't know how to fucking do this. And then you've got to find people who do know how to do that. And then, you know, that's a whole other story. To go back a little bit, though, one thing that's hilarious is the starting your own film festival.
In our sitcom in the second season, our characters were trying to get a movie made called Shin Pads about a zombie soccer team. And the tagline was, when they score, you die. Purposely a terrible idea. Years later, somebody in France made that movie and called it Goal of the Dead. But... our characters in the second season because we can't get our short into any film festivals. We start our own.
but we didn't think to make it the third annual. And I wish we had known the story. But the other thing that no film school prepares you for is that you have to be your film's salesman, not just the artist, not just the writer, the director, the vision behind it, the voice behind it. but you have to be able to sell it in a room. Even if somebody liked the script, there's still going to be a meeting where you need to know how to do that.
for lack of a better term performance and and most writers are not the most social outgoing people And then when your movie comes out and you realize, oh wait, they're not really marketing this, it's on me. And then you got to start doing panels and conventions. Your Q&A, I saw Tucker and Dale at the library screening, I think. I think that's where it was. Oh, cool. But your Q&A was fucking great.
It was so entertaining. You were funny. You were like, again, like I'm not blowing smoke. That was my favorite movie that year. And I had a movie. in Sundance that year and yours was right for now. Kept telling everybody. I'm like, you've got to see. They're like, well, how did Frozen go? I'm like, it was fun. You've got to see Tucker and Delvis. Oh, man. I feel like sad that we haven't been friends through all this. Can we be friends? This is great. I always assume nobody wants to talk to me.
and sometimes to get accused of being like anti-social like if i'm at an event and i'm not really talking that's why he brings me around him because joe can talk to anybody anywhere and i just but i'm always like oh they don't want to talk to me they don't remember me they don't like But have you done any convention appearances yet?
Because I hear about Tucker and Dell all the time going, and that's... we always say this, it takes like seven years after you make a movie to be able to finally see what the audience sees and not What you wanted it to be but you couldn't get or this wasn't right or that wasn't right or what the experience was or the various hurdles that knocked you down
Because after a while, it will find its audience. Like, especially in the genre, people will find it and they love it. And it's so, every time I want to give up, You go and you do one of those weekends and you hear these stories from people about how much it means to them and you're like, fuck, that's why I wanted to do this. Like, it was one. Totally. But for me, it's also been a double-edged sword and I...
Have not done conventions and I made a joke earlier with you guys I think before we were in on air that I would just burrow into a hole for the next seven years until like I get the next chance because you know there was a part about Tucker and Dale I had to do like I couldn't do social media and I couldn't really do any conventions because I I feel like people love Tucker and Dale so much that they hate And they're like, it's
It's so good that how dare you not give us more. How dare you not have a sequel. I fucking hate you. You didn't make good on the promise that you delivered. But here's the deal though. Even if you had made three more. then they would just want another one. Where is it? Why isn't there another one? I've heard this about, like bands have said this, when people are like, it's a kiss. don't you get sick of playing rock and roll? Like, aren't you sick of it at this point? And they're like, No, but...
I couldn't get there. And I avoided conventions for years because all it was was, is there going to be a season three of Holliston? No. Is there Hatchet 5? Where's Hatchet 5? And it wouldn't matter what new thing I might have been promoting. They just want what they already like.
But eventually, you can... hopefully appreciate like fuck it's so great that they love it that much that they do want more but I know what you're saying when you're like I don't even know what my next thing is gonna I might never work again I'm sure just a few years ago you were thinking I was thinking that last year at this time
And right before we started this, I just watched The Assembly for the first time. Yeah, that go, Adam. My new movie. You know? Oh, I thought you were talking about me never working again. No, no, no, but all of us. You always feel like... Oh, I'm never going to work again. Well, that one happened, and that was probably it. Yeah. I mean, I've always seen it because, like I said earlier in this talk, that I was a mountaineering guide, you know, and I would guide.
people on these 30 day adventures and it follows the kind of structure of a movie so well and I just you know for me personally like how I performed on those adventures and like those those hard times maybe when you're on a rescue or you're just trying to pull upon every bit of strength you have to like survive in that case or to help somebody else It feels really similar to making a movie because you're just like out there just trying to survive and I've always seen those like
as kind of like standalone experiences and so a lot of times people ask you like how was the shooting and everything like that and like like those experiences are so personal like they've the moments that maybe you never even see on camera are the part that I just relish and I love the adventure. And then we kind of get to go through it again and experience it all a year and a half later when you're promoting the movie.
But yeah, I just was always focused on like people talk about a career like what am I how am I gonna make these career decisions and for me each thing was like its own its own adventure and maybe I'll never have this adventure again. You know, I'll never climb Aconcagua or Denali again. I certainly don't think so. And so I just want to define that moment as best I can and prove to myself who I am.
And film is very similar, and I just don't ever know if I'll work again, but I've never really, until now, I'm talking to my agents, I need to make a fucking career out of this, you guys. Can I get a movie that pays me a little more? start talking about something that
is a little bigger budget or just whatever. Really start to think of it as a career. Can you talk to those agents for us as well? I think those days when we were all first falling in love with this, You would hear about somebody making an independent movie, maybe went to Sundance or Toronto or one of those big places.
And then their next thing was like a much bigger budget. Jurassic something. But yeah, what's changed? And that does still happen from time to time. But now the model has sort of changed where it's like, if you prove that you can make something. good and that makes some money at that budget level, well then what else can you do at that budget level? And you become that guy or girl.
And then it's really hard to break out of once you've done a bunch of those things because that's now your wheelhouse. And it's like, but don't you think if I actually had time and money, I could handle this? comedy of cute people saying cute things in a coffee shop. Like, if I can light people in fire and do stunts. There'd be zombies involved. Like, yeah.
well that's that's sort of the benefit also of like not getting everything you want in in your career also because you're having to Like, I'm kind of glad, you know, granted, it would have been an easier ride had I gotten a really big film after Tucker and Dale vs. Evil, and I got close with some things.
But I was kind of playing in this in-between world where we don't quite trust him to do a big movie, but let's get him in on the meeting and see what he has to say. And I would go into those meetings and just be like, I don't... think i'm ready for this like i want to do a slightly bigger film and they'd be like okay great get out the door and i'll never talk to you again and there was no like honor in like not bullshitting them and being like
Of course I can do this, bring it on. And I really wanted to be a filmmaker that had more work under his belt before he's given that opportunity and knew what my style is. had a chance to experiment and do my own thing. It's funny because then by not doing those a couple of big films that I had big opportunities with, it was really hard to get my small films made.
But now I'm looking at it in such a new light and I think that's why I can be so honest with you guys now because it has been this huge... turnaround for me to get to make this film and to see that people respond to it in a way where they're also like, oh, you actually have a distinct style and voice. and me kind of realizing that too because I'm just doing what I do and I don't analyze it as much as other people.
but it doesn't you know the thing is though like looking at like if you look at from you know like from going from tucker and dale to little evil which i really enjoyed to clown There is an evolution in your references, your reference points, but also your craft where I don't like, I would be curious if you had done clown or something like it right after tucker because
You can turn the sound off on Clown and it would be a very scary straight slasher. You turn it up and you start to get the more subversive comedy beats, whereas Tucker and Dale... you know that you're kind of in a comedy that is playing with horror tropes. So I feel like you as an artist, had to get to that point, whether it was, who knows, maybe it was Little Evil, or maybe it was working on the Zombieland pilot, which I remember. All of those things kind of parlay into...
How are you able to, because I, like, I... I read bits of Clown in the Cornfield and I was like, well, this could be taken either way. You know, you can make a more comedy version of this. And when you got announced to do it, I'm like, hmm, I wonder if it's going to lean more into the comedy. And then when we watched it last week, I'm like, no, this is a fucking slasher movie. Like, this is... You're like, but then you can still have fun with it. Your voice definitely comes through. Yes. Yeah.
Well, yeah, that was very tactful. I was like, I always wanted to be an action movie director. You know, I wanted to do like T2. You know what I mean? That kind of thing. I wanted like, oh man, if I could stick my teeth into like really just high stakes thriller action. And this felt like... you know, it gave me that opportunity to do that. And then as you guys know, you've been in the business like the same amount of time. It's good to like,
show a different side of yourself. I just didn't want to be dancing in the same exact spot. But not just that. I'm also older and I'm angrier. And I think the world is angrier. And let's get dirty. Let's make a gritty horror film and then also have some levity to it. Hmm.
That was my goal in this, and I really wanted to show, people always ask me, would you ever think of doing a horror film? And I was like, well, I kind of just, dismantled all the horror tropes like what would I do like I've just completely just taken Tucker and Dale and made fun of all horror tropes like and now I'm just gonna go do a straight horror movie And so the distance in some ways, the time distance, has helped me say
Yeah, I am going to do a horror movie. I'm going to make it my own tone a bit. and i'm gonna have some real levity in it but i'm also gonna make the deaths like like brutal and real oh they are brutal holy all right i i and speaking in in terms of like influences and how If you look at some of the best horror directors that have worked in you know in the business or even like today between you know
Jordan Peele or Zach Krager, you know, coming from comedy world. And, you know, I always looked at Tucker and Dale as a comedy. Like, it felt like, and you even saying before, like, you know, I wanted to get into comedy. And yet, you know, obviously with these three films and even with Zombieland, you know, you can look at the, on paper, it seems like you're more of a horror guy.
And even when you were writing Tucker and Dale, going from Pong and then going into making something that is genre-adjacent like Tucker and Dale,
What were some of the movies, like, what were some of your favorite horror films? Because, like, you know, we've had Jordan on before, we've had Zack on before, and we would talk about, like, okay, you know, you're kind of known as, comedy yet when like or even Mel Brooks you know like when you look at you know young Frankenstein sure but that's the motherfucker that also produced the fly and and and the elephant man so you're all of these directors taste
can get real dark, or they can go real serious. They're not going like, well, I just wanted to make the airplane for horror. It's like, obviously, you're coming from a place where these movies were affecting you, and you were fans. Putting this together, were there any particular movies or any influences that you felt like?
that's kind of where you veered towards into Tucker and Dale. Because you can look at that and go, well, he was a real big fan of fucking Cowboy Holocaust or Hills Have Eyes or something like that. But with a comedy spin, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think that I...
I was disturbed as a young child by watching some horror films like way too early in my As we all were You know and there are certain things that definitely stand out to me, but I also You know, I can say that it was almost like I was forced to watch it by my older brother. you know, when I was really young, things like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which, you know, just seared like a disturbing, like, could people ever really behave like this?
And I think it was so disturbing that I was like, I have to make a movie that's the opposite of that years later, which is Tucker and Dale. It's basically Leatherface if he was just misunderstood. But I watched those and then the things I gravitated toward was like the sort of Evil Dead 2 and like the Sam Raimi, Army of Darkness fun.
fun, tongue-in-cheek. The roller coasters. Yeah, the roller coasters. And so definitely, you know, people always ask me, like, you know, A Clown in a Cornfield, what were the films you were specifically taking from? and there are some that I was like literally like studying scenes like Jaws is the most obvious one but like mostly it just lives in like this booyah base in my brain that
they're like mashed together. Like moments in Halloween are mashed together with Friday the 13th and, you know, Hell's Half Eyes or Wrong Turn and all these things are things I've seen. And I know the tropes and I don't necessarily think of specifically, you know, this is this movie that I'm playing with. And then I just really try to write my own movie and just knowing that stuff without worrying about what's what. Right now, my mind is so blown because until you said it right now,
The only time I've ever heard the word booyah bass is when Joe drops it like every other episode. Do not. Now my mind is so blown. I'm going to need therapy. it's time for That's right. It's time for everybody's favorite part of the movie, Crypt. It's time for Hollywood Therapy with Dr. Arwen. This is where the three of us do the best job we possibly can answering your more personal questions on behalf of the good doctor. We would let her answer, but... Booyah!
She's a dog. Actually, on the day we're recording this, it's Arwen's 14th birthday. Oh, my God. Yeah. Okay, our question comes from Tatterday Night. What kind of proactive steps would you suggest to prevent or minimize the horrors of losing creative control and being a victim of Hollywood accounting? Keeping in mind, this is coming from, of course, the indie slash micro budget slash little poor kid point of view who can't easily lawyer up.
Man, it's so funny that that question came up on the weekend that sinners just fucking destroyed and all the news was like, well, you know. Ryan Coogler, he's got it written in his deal that he gets the rights back to the movie after 25 years. It's going to ruin the industry. I saw that. Crazy, but people are freaking out that control is being relegated to the artist again and how they're like, well, not necessarily, not everybody, you know, but
That's one of the things that we're all worried about, whether it's on a financial side, it's on a creative side. There's always been the strife of who has the control, who has the right to make those creative decisions or even financial decisions. It's a tough one. Okay, to start, and again, you can listen to 621 episodes of this show and hear versions of this, but... If somebody is, or whether it's a person or an entity or multiple people, if they're financing your dream,
They control it. They take all the rest. And you can say, yeah, but I put years of my life into it. Without them, you don't get to make your move. So they really do own it. If you really, if creative control is the most important thing to you, then come up with a concept that you can make for a budget like paranormal activity or Blair Witch or something like that. Otherwise, you have to be willing.
to understand that the success of this thing and ultimately what it is, the person who has everything at risk definitely has a say in everything and it's it's sometimes that's hard for people to hear but once you're in that position where you would do anything to get somebody to just make this opportunity happen for you You kind of learn like, fuck, I am so lucky that this person believes in this enough. You also got to remember some people financing it.
Most times, it's a business move. It's either a tax write-off to somebody who has too much money or it's they're hoping they're gambling that they can make some money off of this thing so at any point if they start getting notes from i don't know who the they come from their kids saying I don't think this is good or can't you have whoever pop star in it or whatever like that's how that ends up happening um studios definitely they control basically everything
So as much as you'll hear guys like us say, God, it would be so great to just have a budget like that. There's a whole new set of problems that come with that. And then as far as Hollywood accounting goes,
I highly recommend, if you haven't heard it yet, our Blair Witch Roundtable where Josh and Mike told the truth about what it's been like for them for 25 years. Remember, a movie that costs Depends who you ask 35 grand or 50 grand to make that grossed a quarter of a billion just in theaters and they got fruit baskets and have spent 25 years
fighting over this thing, which apparently there has been some movement there in a good way, finally. But you've heard me say it when people like do a hatchet five. again like and when i was 25 trying to get that thing made i think i was like 30 when we actually shot it i I'm so fucking thrilled that there has been four of them, that there's three action figures and Halloween mess and comic books and all that stuff. But don't try to tell me someone's not making money off of it.
And I own a percentage of it, a healthy percentage of it. And like, The only thing I can do is not make one to hurt them, to stop them from making money. And it's just, and again, I'm sure you guys agree with me on this. Just all anybody wants is to be treated fairly.
That's it. No one's saying, well, because it became this thing, now I want more. No, just treat. And it's not just us, the directors, the whole crew that's working for next to nothing. All the favors you're calling in for that stuff. So to answer your question, how to avoid it?
If Peter Jackson couldn't avoid it, if Bob Zemeckis couldn't avoid it, it's always going to exist and it's one of the... sour points of this industry that nobody likes to talk about because then you're difficult and no one wants to work with you because you talked about it. So... Definitely if you're gonna do something where somebody is giving you any type of budget
Make sure you get an entertainment lawyer to at least get you that contract. It doesn't mean you're ever going to see what you're entitled to because good luck proving it. But you do need to lawyer up. for something like that. And I shouldn't say, you shouldn't use the phrase lawyer up. I'm just saying. It sounds, yeah, it sounds. Just have an agreement lawyer review that contract and make sure it's standard and fair. If you want to avoid all that then self distribute
And good luck with that because of piracy, the second that thing exists digitally, it's gone. Everyone's just going to take it. It's, man, it's hard. And I wish I had the answers. Maybe Eli, maybe you have a better perspective on that. I think you guys, no, you guys, I mean, I just sitting here.
thinking again this is the perfect therapy but the therapy is for me um thank you for that and you know look i think tucker and dale is just such a good example of this because It was so hard to get the statements from The producers. And the big part of the reason why there's no Tucker and Dale 2 is that you have a falling out with these people. It's impossible not to when they're hiding information for you or changing the goalpost. I mean, that's the thing that I would say.
right no no this the budget on this movie was Oh, I love that one. It was actually this. What? What do you mean it was still in the red? Wait, what? We had to put extra money in it. Like, you know, we wanted to keep this from you while you're shooting. And there's no way to trace this stuff back. So now all of a sudden, Tuckerdale, which was a tiny, like, I had the budget back. It was like a $2.2 million movie.
We had some money, right? I mean, some people would be making a first film and think it was such a blessing to have to close to two and a half million US dollars. So but it's a very like once you're dealing then with everybody's in the union, there's all these limitations that the budgets go up very quickly.
And yeah, the goalposts just constantly change. I have been fighting to just get the statements. And it's very funny, now that Clown in a Cornfield is about to come out and the producers... from that movie, Love Me, and they love Tucker and Dale, there's a fight between them because one of them wants to get the rights to Tucker and Dale. Right. And and so and.
Look, I'm like, great, go get the rights because I trust you a little bit more. At least you haven't screwed me over directly yet. And yeah, it's something we all shy away from talking about because You know, the accounting. I thought it was funny that the first question was about Hollywood accounting. It was like, oh boy.
What a landmine to even be talking about it. That's why we did a full episode just about that. And again, that Blair Witch one, if you listen to the last, I think it's either 15 or 16 minutes. I go through all the famous stories about it and how it works and how they hide it.
uh to caturday night if you haven't yet listened to that full episode definitely definitely listen to it because we get deep in the weeds in that one but as you'll hear on this podcast everybody has dealt with And like where I had to really put my foot in my mouth was for 10. 11 years of doing this podcast whenever the subject came up I'd say unless your movie makes Blair Witch money they're always going to hide it and then to find out what happened to them
So even if your movie does make Blair Witch movies... But, okay. pointed men in black to men in black men in black yeah there's so many uh uh was it return of the jedi didn't make one oh yeah so it's um but you can't There's something else that drives all of us to do this and it's that we feel like we need to tell stories. So don't
Don't let that disenchant you when you are starting. So basically, you're going to get screwed, so you might as well have a good time doing it. Yeah, know the stories and learn about the landmines so you kind of at least have an idea what to look out for. but always have an entertainment attorney, not You're... friend who's got a cpa or whatever and your tax attorney like have an entertainment attorney review a contract have a contract before any money is spent just saying
What your participation is in it and what you're allotted, just accept what is fair. Don't try to George Lucas it on your first movie and be like, well, I get the rest of all the merchandise and all that. That's never going to happen again for anybody. Never. But don't be disenchanted by it. I think in our...
It's funny, we all feel like we're old guys now at this point. But yeah, it does become a thing, especially when you have a family and if you have kids or you're middle-aged or whatever, at a certain point... You're not going to keep putting yourself through the same fucking thing. You're just not. And I know people don't want to hear that. Like, again, going back to the conventions. We'll just do it. Just do it. We'll crowdfund it. It's just not that simple because of all these other hooks.
that are in it That's a story for another day. Yeah, I would just say it did shock me because I was very new to the industry, at least in the making movies part when I did Tucker and Dale, though I had acted in movies and done these other things. I actually was shocked.
like a couple years later when I was like what do you mean I don't have the right what do you mean i have no rights to this movie that i came up with made happen cast shot did everything on like i don't own any of the rights and you signed them over when they found no It's a resounding no, and then you're constantly dealing with people that do not have your financial best interests in mind if you want to make a sequel.
so you're like well this sucks because now i make a sequel to what to just make you guys a lot of money and not get paid and for that movie it went way beyond that because we i had to fight just to get paid for production right and so like it was only because it was At that time I wasn't DGA, but they had to hold a bond with Directors Guild of Canada. And this bond is so that they're holding money so that in case the producers try to skip town and not pay the director.
And that pretty much happened to me. And then the Directors Guild of Canada, before they gave them back their bond, checked in with me and said, how much... What did they owe you? And I said, you know, like it's like $75,000 or something to direct Tucker and Dale. And they said, oh, that you made a contract that actually doesn't live up to the DGC contract.
They owe you, you know, 110 or 120. You're like, yes, they do, in fact. Yes, they do. Actually, it was one million dollars. Yeah, and then they call the, you asshole, you know, you're ruining everything, you know. You got to just give up and call them and say you're not going to accept the money. Yeah, right. So there are these things that that's why there needs to be a guild. That's why there needs to be a powerful guild.
It is an industry set up to take advantage of hungry young artists. But I will just say, in conclusion, what you said before is that If you're looking to hold on to your rights, if you're looking at accounting first I think that's probably not the right position to be in. You probably shouldn't be a filmmaker. I think it's the last thing most good filmmakers are really looking at. It is a career. I was talking about these expeditions and they live on themselves, but
But you got to think about then what's next? What am I going to get up front for the next movie? It's going to be a little bit more. Do I get to create more things? And what you're trying to establish is a road, like a roadmap to a career. And the reason why Ryan Coogler gets his rights back is obvious, you know. When you become a big enough filmmaker, the dream is to get gross points and then they can't hide it from you.
And I already told you who my mom was. She has been... You know what? She got paid for Forrest Gump. This is not a lie. $125,000. and did not get a piece of anything. Wow. Holy shit. Didn't Forrest Gump not make money? Yeah, it did not make money. Tom Hanks, on the other hand, was a part of gross profits and made millions of money.
there's a feeling that she's had it like I was shirked I was disregarded I was unappreciated but she also just goes forward and then one day her agent made her do this little movie called Mrs. Doubtfire. But she so didn't want to do it. And she thought, oh, this is silly. I don't really want to play this character. And I don't think I'm really the comedy actor for this. That's one of my favorite roles that she's done. And they had to convince her to do it.
and the way they convinced her were gross points. and she had like a couple of points on that and that's the movie that made her a multi-million. And so someday something happens where it's probably a mistake on their deal-making or it's intertwined with a mistake on their part with just this moment in time when you're hot and you can command that kind of attention that you can become a multi-millionaire off a movie so you know stay with it make lots of movies and and look at it as
as like a proving ground, you know? If you get screwed over, then you get to be on this podcast and all good things will come. Because lesson learned, life is like a box of audits. And that's, and that's, is Arwen's final word. to hear the rest of this episode Only $1 a month. You'll get every new episode every Monday downloaded right to your podcast