Ep 600: Matthew Lillard

Hey, Adam, Joe, and Arwen. This is James, originally from Ashland, Massachusetts. That's right, the town that Holliston wishes it was. Just wanted to say congratulations on your 600th episode. Can't wait to hear 600 more. Also have to say... the entire hatchet series hollison tv show mayhem just simply unbelievable stuff love everything you guys do hey guys it's mia here i just want to say congratulations and thank you for all that you do i'm so happy to know so many amazing people

through the movie crypt. It's been amazing, and I can't thank you guys enough for just all that you do. I love you guys. This is Eric from Stockholm, Sweden, wishing Adam, Joe, and Arwen congratulations on episode 600. Thank you so much for putting this show out week after week all these years. It means the world to us listeners, and it's gotten me personally through some really rough times.

Hey, this is Lee Howard from Ontario, Canada. You might know me from the Quiet Room Bears and two-time Yorkethon appearances. Thank you very much. Honestly, huge, huge, huge. Congrats and just thank you for all these years, all these episodes, everything that you do for your fans and the community. We all love you guys.

I can't say thank you enough. You guys are the best. Here's to 600 more, right, guys? Hashtag fuck Jeremy. This is your friend, Laura from Scottsdale, Arizona, and Angel. You want to say something? Aww. That's for Arwen and for Rocco. Hey there, it's Mike McCutcheon from Austin, Texas. I've been listening to you guys for about seven years now. Just wanted to say thank you to Adam, Arwen, and Joe for constantly putting out amazing content. Happy 600th episode. This is Dan from London.

I've been a listener since I was digging up the marrow back at Fright Fest so many years ago. I've asked so many questions, reviewer mail over the years. Whenever I've been down, the shows always pick me up and really re-inspire me. Keep being creative. This is Greg from Kansas City, Missouri, and I wanted to congratulate all of you on 600 amazing, insightful episodes. But more importantly, really wanted to thank you all for helping create and cultivate the Movie Crypt.

film family. A lot of us have gotten through some tough times together and that wouldn't be possible. without all that you do. This is Jason from Leesburg, Virginia. A big congratulations to Adam, Joe, and Arwen on 600 episodes. And an even bigger thank you for the community of fans that you've brought together. When I go to a horror convention wearing a... This is Cameron from Ohio, and I just want to say thank you guys so much for 600 episodes of Motivation.

For me personally, I wouldn't be making movies today if I wasn't listening to you guys. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. This is Brandon Williamson from Benson, Arizona. Adam and Joe just want to let you know the Movie Crypt is the best podcast in the entire world.

Thank you so much for all that you do. Calling in from Santa Monica, California. This is Nick Schaefer, which I don't think is that hard to pronounce, but you know, to each their own. I've like seriously learned so much about how often Joe uses the bathroom and how Adam pretty much doesn't.

But I've also learned a lot of lessons about navigating this very treacherous industry. So thank you guys so much for all you do. And a very special thank you to Arwen for carrying the team for all these years. Hi, this is John.

from Norton, Massachusetts. I just want to say congratulations to Joe, Adam, and Aaron on 600 wonderful episodes and never missing a week. Keep it up. Love the podcast. Love all the little live shows. You guys are awesome. Hi there. This is Steve Rock looking for a pizza delivery. I need a large pepperoni, some garlic knots, and an Arwen spaghetti special. Hello? Anyone there? Hello? It's Roger Russell. The one thing that I've taken away from this podcast is three words, baby. Never give.

This is Ashley Marie Thornton from Shadow Hills, California, and on behalf of Steven Tyler, congratulations! And welcome to episode 600 of The Movie Crypt. I'm Adam Green. I'm Joe Lynch. Dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun! That's so you don't have to put in any cool fanfare. Damn it, I already put music in. That was me reversing it, sorry. First things first, we want to say thank you to the listeners who sent us congratulations messages. We got...

So many. Holy crap. We listened to every single one of them. We appreciate all of it and we are so sorry we couldn't include every single message in that opening. but we wanted to keep it somewhat short and not have it be 20 minutes. But to our listeners, especially our patrons, try not to get emotional. Don't do it now. You got to save it. This is a big milestone, man. 600 episodes, 600 weeks. This podcast originally world premiered on May 6th.

2013 and here we are at the end of 2024 with our milestone 600th episode And that's 600 weeks without ever missing a week. Almost 72,000 hours. What were we thinking? What are we thinking? We were thinking at the time, we'll be done in 10 weeks. It'll be fine. I think both of us can attest that this show has changed.

not just our lives, but so many other people's lives. We've also, you know, we've siphoned off a few hours off of each of our 600 guests, and hopefully they've been enriched by coming in here or doing it over Zoom. Obviously, we've had quite the interaction and the bonding with so many of you listening from the OGs all the way back in 2013, which there are many of you, to some who might be joining just for this episode. because of our guest. Who knows? Possibly.

Honestly, like it has changed your life and mine. You know, we're basically tethered to each other no matter what. We're probably going to be not going to be friends years ago. But we're like, oh, shit, we got to still keep doing this. We got to keep doing it. But yeah. Thank you guys for that. Well, for our 10 year anniversary episode, which was with Todd Masters, we went through all of the side things that this podcast has done. Obviously, we're both very much into.

philanthropy so stuff like the boston strong fundraiser stuff like the christmas event that we did at the alamo draft house in austin to help put an elevator in the veterans hall there eight Yorkie-thons. I guess at this point, over a quarter of a million dollars raised for our friends at Save the Yorkie Rescue, which, by the way, due to upcoming filming Yorkie-thon 9,

is officially being postponed until late spring or summer. At least that's the plan right now. We'll of course let you know as soon as we set a new date, but remember... Our friends at Savey Orky Rescue are always in need of help, especially now around the holidays. So if you can spare a few bucks and help some of Arwen's fellow dogs that have been abandoned.

or in some cases, horrifically abused by real life monsters, you can always make a donation at saveayorkierescue.org. You'll see the yellow donate button right there at the top. of their website this conversation with Matthew Lillard was recorded on Friday October 25th but this episode doesn't come out until December 2nd. So who knows? We might all be vaporized at this point. It's important to note that ever since we went fully independent, it was actually episode 367 in June of 2020. So like...

peak pandemic when the whole thing went down with Fangoria and all the podcasts had to leave. Anyway, ever since we did that, we've relied on our beloved Patreon supporters to keep this show going. The first hour has been released free to the public while the full episodes have been reserved for those who support us at a mere 20 to 25 cents.

a week. That's all we ask for $1 a month. And the best thing about it is you don't need to go to patron to listen to the episodes. When you sign up, you look at your profile, there's an RSS code. You can just plug that into whatever podcast app. prefer and the episodes will automatically just show up on your device each

week. Uh, depending if you do early access or if you just wait till Monday, like most people do whatever you want to do, it is so easy and it's just $1 a month, but that has kept this show. independent and going. Independent means you don't have to keep skipping and pressing that 30 second button.

every 10 minutes to get through all these commercials that you've heard a million times. It means we get to speak to the people we want to speak to and say what we want to say without having somebody else breathing down our necks. Point is, as we do with all of our major episodes, like the big roundtable episodes or milestones like this, this episode will be released.

in its entirety, to the general public. So if you're new to the Movie Crypt, or you've been listening forever, but you're just doing the free hour, If you like what we do, please consider going to patreon.com slash themoviecrypt. Again... all we ask for one dollar a month of course there's other tiers there's monthly live shows there's all kinds of other stuff to really become part of this community uh we definitely appreciate it and you are the only reason this show has made it

episode 600. Four different times we've had to move servers. Geek Nation went away. Then we were briefly independent. Then we're on Fangoria. So it's been a ride. And before we get to the interview, we just want to say one more time.

to everyone who has supported us, who's gone to see our films who's bought our films who's come to see us at conventions who's come to our live shows who supported Yorkie Thon and helped us save dogs which is so important to both of us thank you so much we love you I can safely say I never saw this going to episode 600 but without ever missing a week crazy yep

Crazy. All right. We're going to shut up and let you hear this incredible conversation with the great Matthew Lillard. Perfect guest for episode 600. I loved every second of this conversation. The fact that he interviewed us at one point, too. You're just, he's everything you would hope he is. And if you don't already love Matthew Lillard, You are going to be totally in love with him by the end of this conversation. Okay. So our next guest, I mean...

Do I need to say more? You have such a sweet smile on your face. Because I'm so happy that you're here. The last time that we spoke, we were in Nancy Nayer's office and we were talking about the forthcoming block. Buster and critical hit Knights of Bad Astem. And I was just telling you how you dodged a bullet like fucking Keanu Reeves in The Matrix. But you know what? You know what?

You know what's not on your credits list? Knights of Badassdom. You know what's on your credits list? Ghoulies Go to College. Amongst a slew, a plethora, if you will, of other titles that I have listed right here like Serial Mom. Fucking John Waters, my friend. First film. Holy shit. First official film. First direction. First official film. Yes, for sure.

Mad Love and Hackers, which has become the fucking bomb movie now. Everybody loves it. The little movie called Scream. The Curve. Actually, the first time that I actually met you, which was SLC Punk back in the Sundance days. Wing Commander. Can we just talk for three hours about the fucking Wing Commander? I mean, literally, we could do a whole episode on Wing Commander. People right now have no idea. They think it's Freddie Prinze Jr.

No, they don't. Get out of here. No, but when you say 13 ghosts, they go, oh, we know who it is. He's not Freddie Prinze Jr. Wicker Park, Without a Paddle, The Scooby-Doo Saga. Because that obviously turned into quite the franchise for you. I hope you're not reading the entire IMDb. No, no, no. The Descendants leveraged the bridge. I fucking loved you on the bridge. That was fucking amazing. Five Nights at Freddy's. We've now moved.

way forward and now you're the second guest we've had in a month who's in The Life of Chuck. Oh, who's the first? Lauren Lavera, who's in the Terrifier movies. Everybody is in The Life of Chuck, but you know who's definitely in The Life of Chuck? Matthew fucking Lillard. How do you do it? That's it. That's the only question we have for you. Two conventions now. I just cheered for myself, by the way. And I've clapped as loud as either one. You should. I'm like, where is he?

Where is the guy? But I've had two conventions now where I was just seated like near you and the line that they have to like wrap it outside down the street sometimes. And. I've been waiting to say this to you. We've been doing cons for 16 years, 17 years at this point. Not as often because we're directors, so you don't really get to do it as often. We're the ones off in the corner just like sitting there.

We're like Don Cheadle in Boogie Nights with the cowboy outfit on, just sitting there all sad and everything. Just like, yeah, please come and talk to me. That's not true. But we go out of our way to give people a good experience because they're there to see you. But I watch how good you are with people, and it just makes me so happy. Forget the fact that they're waiting for a long time to meet you, but everyone walks away with this huge smile on their face. You give everybody such...

undivided attention. Like you're giving them everything. You're hugging people. Uh, there's that video that kind of went viral with the girl that was scared and you sit on the floor with her doing the shaggy voice. Oh my God. But it's amazing. And I've just been waiting to say, like, thank you for doing that. Because sometimes there's other people at these that are just like, yeah, what's up? Transacting.

Yeah. But to you, it really is an experience. This is my favorite podcast I've ever done. We haven't even started. I feel so verklempt. Look, if you ever feel down or a little bit low, come by here. We should call the show Wax Your Car.

because we will wax your fucking car but you know what like I feel, and I'm sure Adam feels the same way, there is a certain generation of actor, because I remember the first time that I had seen you, it wasn't Ghoulies Go to College, I saw that later, but it was Serial Mom because...

serial mom was like for me it was my gateway John Waters for a lot of people it was because it was one of those more mainstream Kathleen Turner in it holy shit and I remember when you guys were watching the HD Lewis movie was it what was it I wouldn't remember anyway. It might have been... You're talking about when they're in the store. When you're watching the movie, you're watching an H.G. Lewis movie, and you guys are just loving it. And then...

Anytime that there was a character like that, you know, like Randy in Scream or like Corey Feldman in Friday the 13th Part 4 when it's like, wait, that's us. When you have that like...

one-to-one relationship with a character, I remember watching you going, that's me. That's what I would do. I would sit there, Blood Feast. You guys are watching Blood Feast. And you're sitting there and you're watching Blood Feast and you look like a fucking pig in shit. You know, it's like you're doing everything that we did when I... was watching serial mom I was doing what you were doing on the screen so immediately there's that connection and ever since then

In one form or another, even... Look, I remember buying Wing Commander for you. I mean, Mark Hamill was also in it, which was pretty cool. Do you remember going to see... Was that the one that we... all went to see the trailer for it. Yes. That's the one with the Phantom Menace. Yes. Unbelievable opening weekend only for that. Yes. But there was a relatability to what you were doing.

on screen even something because I remember when Hackers came out and like Ian Softley I was a huge fan of Backbeat. Backbeat's a great movie. I love that fucking movie. He's an incredible filmmaker. He's a great filmmaker. He doesn't direct it. I don't know what he's doing. It's one of those luck of the draw things where it's like A lot of his movies didn't really get recognized until later on.

You know, it's like... Yeah, Hackers for sure. I mean, Hackers is one of those movies where... Well, before we talk about Hackers, I just want to say thank you for saying that about cons. I do think that cons... I've changed my life financially. I mean, I do these conventions and they're incredible for me in terms of feeding my family and sort of taking the pressure off of life. I'm the only actor in the world that didn't...

Strike didn't crush eternally. Like, you know, I was like, I had something, I knew I would be okay. So there was the joy of that. But I think that there's a, that there's a transaction. And I keep trying to articulate this in the most positive way. There's a movie. Sam Watterson gave me this idea. In Serial Mom, I would watch Kathleen Turner as my second movie. I'd watch Kathleen Turner walk across the Towson State.

campus as this legendary actress in this moment and she would be like her hair would be done and she would be swishing and she'd be saying hello to everyone and I was like my god she would have throngs of people around her it's V.I. Wachowski holy shit it is like literally she would like she would envelop like she would she loved that moment and I said I said to Sam Watterson I've never seen anything like this I've never seen the way that people react to her

is the most incredible thing. And Sam Waterston said, he's like, there's a book called The Moviegoer. Oh, yeah. You know what I'm going to say? Keep going. So... So the moviegoer has this moment in the book, and I'm paraphrasing what Sam said. I've never read the book.

But I've held on to this for 30-something years. So there's a moment in the book where a lead character's walking down the street. It's back in the 50s. And he's walking down a small town. And he's just come for breakfast with his girlfriend. This guy stops him on the street and the guy asks for a light and he looks up and he goes to light this guy's cigarette and it's James Dean.

And all of a sudden, that moment becomes, I was on 4th Street. It was just after 11.30. I just had bacon and eggs. Arlene had just had a ham sandwich. And we were walking down. She was in a gingham shirt. I remember the sun was high. It was about 9. degrees and James Dean he looked at me and those eyes and then he asked for a smoke and I could see the glint and that moment in a history this lifetime of memories

That moment stands out because James Dean asked me for a light on that day. For James Dean, he's just looking for a light. It's just another moment. But if you can understand the value of those moments to other people, not what it means to you. Fame doesn't mean shit to me. Yes, I can get a good reservation sometimes. Sometimes. But the value is where you can affect a little kid or a filmmaker coming up or somebody battling addiction or somebody who hasn't had a hug in three years.

I hug every single person who comes to my table if they want to hug. I will fucking hug the shit out of them. And to try to take that moment... And understand that that value transaction is not about you, it's about them. Yes. And making somebody feel seen in that moment is, A, makes that whole con transaction worthy.

Because you're working really hard for somebody that you would give away freely. You're trying to make somebody feel special. And it's also, I like human beings. And I think that you make the coolest... Quirkiest people in the world. I've had these cons and so because of the strike I did like 10 cons this year, which normally I don't get to do that many and I keep saying it all of them on my panels

Don't believe what they're telling you on the news that everyone hates each other and everyone's an asshole. Cause like been all over the country, the red estates, the blue estates, everybody's awesome. Like obviously we're in a bubble in the horror community. It's not like.

I didn't go to a fucking proud boys rally and be like, everyone's really great. You know what I mean? But it's, but it's not as bad as people say. And I think having that human interaction, especially after COVID to actually get out there and like, Look people in the face and hear what they have to say and talk It's it's just it's so much healthier, but it's something that we've always talked about because you know, we've done cons together and

It's I'm so glad that you brought up the Kathleen Turner moment because that kind of prefaces exactly why we appreciate it is like. we used to go to cons as fans. We were the people on the other side of that table. And when you appreciate what it's like on both sides, like I'll never forget the first con that I did. And I just.

bumped into Tom Savini. And that was my fucking hero as a kid. He doesn't remember that. No way. He doesn't remember much of that weekend. But I'll never forget it. I'm talking about it. 40 years later, you know, so those moments mean so much so that every single person that comes to like through our line I We've done it before together where like both of us are sitting there going like, you know

I know our lines are long, but I don't fucking care how long it takes to be able to have five minutes with someone. Even if you're standing up there and we're talking about some random scene in one of our movies, that person walks away. with a shit-eating grin with that James Dean moment. And if you know what it's like on the receiving end of that, you will make the time for it. Now, there's some talent out there and, you know.

that they're out there who haven't maybe had that experience before. They haven't had their James Dean moment or their Kathleen Turner moment, and they just don't get. how much that means to people and sometimes they can't because the line is long and it has to keep of course but even with some of the longest lines i've ever seen you still give everybody 100% of what you have and it's so wonderful to watch. I try. I mean, I definitely try.

Thank you for saying that. And then we were talking about, sorry, I jumped back to that because I wanted to acknowledge the fact that it's very sweet. those weekends are well you know along those same lines because that was something that I think we again we've talked about on the show and we've just kind of toiled with in our professional careers too and I'm sure you have as well like

Maybe there was. There was an air of once you start doing the con circuit, are you saying that you're kind of done? You know what I mean? Not anymore. Not as much anymore. It used to be. It used to be. It used to be for people that were watching. It used to be like, you know, the old, you know, those who don't do teach. Now it was, now it's, or maybe 10 years ago, it was, well.

Once you're, you know, once you're not, once the phone stops ringing, you're behind the table. Yeah. And I remembered, you know, like I think the first couple of cons that we did, it was. promoting something directly well we seized it as an opportunity to promote what we were doing a promotional machine and we were always shocked more people weren't doing that but then a few years ago you saw the terrifier guys doing exactly that and now look

Look at that. And listen, and I think that, you know, everyone keeps asking right now that there's this resurgence in my career. I would 100%. Like I do not think it's a coincidence that also correlates with my engagement in communities at cons. I mean, I think that people are fans way more now after we have this interaction.

than they ever were before just based on my history in film. So, listen, I can't imagine not doing it. I can't imagine... sort of my life without it you know and i've had profound experiences i used to end up in tears in every con yeah because you would catch that kid that would break your heart in some way. And you know, one of the things I love to do is I take photos.

So I will now shoot photos. So for me, I'm not only that, but I'm like finding these moments in these beautiful places. It's kind of like Jeff Bridges when he would have his widescreen camera. I always have to hand my phone to the handler. And so I... come home with like two or three pictures, but that's such a good idea. But I literally carry like, like I carry, you need to have a film. I stop everything and, and I'll shoot and I'll like find these little.

quirky human beings or these beautiful human beings or these tatted up because it's so much it means so much more and you see them and like because you're that guy in that thing there's a access And somebody will smile for you or I'll have them close their eyes and think about something horrible. Like, whatever. I just...

It also is like now everyone that comes up, I'm engaged in seeing them in some way. And my instinct is I'll either have the instinct and I'll try to move through it. No, don't shoot. There's always people waiting. Yeah. And then if something like keeps, like I will listen to a voice and I'm like, no, no, no, no, get it. And I'll grab my camera and stop everything and take a picture of someone. With those moments.

that we've all had where something really really touches you or somebody's just got such a tragic story at what point in doing this did you learn how to um how to let it go when you go back to your room because I had such a hard time with that. I would literally be in a fetal position over somebody else's trauma because I, I felt it and I feel so bad. Um, I have someone still working on someone who reached out to me. I'm doing a,

con in Orlando next weekend. And they've already reached out saying like, I just need a hug. I I've been depressed for two years and I'm like, I already know I'm going to take that back to the room with me and be like, Oh God, like you absorb a lot of this stuff. How did you learn how to be there? I don't know accept it but not I don't think I have an ability to um

to, to hold it and then move through it. Like my whole thing is like, if somebody is in a dark place, I try to, to, to make them feel seen, bring joy. and then give them something instead of holding something. So I will literally hug somebody, and in this weird way, I will literally be trying to...

I will literally close my eyes and take energy and push it into people. That sounds bananas. I understand that. I don't know why I do it. It's not based on anything. There's not like, oh, I've got, I'm like, I literally will like hug somebody. You know, when you hug someone in there, they have. like positive vibe you can feel it you know yes but and and so i am like i'm literally closing my eyes and trying to move energy into people so my whole thing is like when somebody is in such a dark place

I don't really sit in it very long. I can't hold that darkness and be like, yeah, you know what I mean? Look, the worst thing is when you get a parent who's lost a kid. That was the one that killed me. You're like, you know, I had this kid. I don't want to crack. I'm literally, I cracked today already in an interview. Oh, God. I had this kid who found me at a VIP party. It's like, I was going to kill myself. I was getting all my life in a...

in a place to take my own life. I saw you coming to a con. In the interim of those two months, I got a job. I was saved, and I found you, and you hugged me, and it was better. Her mom and dad. I've come back a couple times and said thank you. And it's that thing where you're like, oh, man, you're not there trying to save someone. I'm not some weird, like, I'm trying to save everyone. I'm just trying to make somebody feel loved.

And when you are able to affect directly somebody's life in a way that you can't expect, it's like... Especially when you didn't even know you were doing it. No idea. You had no idea. So anyways. But don't you feel like, do you feel though that like as an entertainer, right? Uh-huh.

And this is where we can kind of start to backtrack a little bit, but because there are some actors, there are some filmmakers, storytellers, creative people, people like to entertain who do it because, you know, they like to disappear into a role or.

There is the thrill of making someone laugh, making someone cry, scaring someone, affecting someone. Where do you find yourself on that spectrum? Do you, you know, because it clearly, I mean, with the roles that you've done before and especially like in the last. 15, 20 years where you've taken the mantle of such an iconic character like Shaggy, you've made so many people laugh.

And that is such a powerful therapeutic thing to do. Do you take weight in that? No, not at all. You don't? No, because I don't feel like... Not as a responsibility. No, I understand what you're saying. My job, you as directors, my job is to, when I show up, is to just serve you. My job is to hit a mark, stay aligned, bring... everything I have to that scene to that day. And then you will do with it as you please. It is not my, for better or for worse, and a lot of times for worse.

My responsibility is nothing to do with me. It's everything to do with serve story and serve the movie, which a lot of times doesn't serve me as an actor. I will be the idiot in the background of... Wing Commander, you know, and I'm chewing scenery because a director and this isn't directly related to Chris Roberts who directed that movie, but like I'm doing really stupid shit in the background. I'm ruining many scenes.

But he doesn't have the capacity to see me in that, or some director, not Chris Roberts, whoever the director is, doesn't have the capacity to see the overall picture and realize I'm chewing scenery, which may not be the best. For this moment. Yeah, but there's a vulnerability to that because I remember specifically it was like you and Jonathan Tucker were the best at drooling

There was something about the amount of fluids that, but that's the best rule. I don't know. Lillard has them like kind of Texas chainsaw remake man. And that scene with our early army and those moments in scream. I'll never forget it when I saw that. movie and I remember seeing like oh my god it's the fucking guy from from Serial Mom but the vulnerability it just felt like you were

you threw all caution to the wind and didn't give a fuck. That's a great example. Like Scream, like you watch Scream now. Sure, it's iconic. Um, but when you watch scream, you're like, what is that? What is he doing? Like, I'm screaming the whole last act. What was like, it's like, what am I doing? You know what I mean? Like I look at that now and I'm just, it's a, it is a young actor hurling energy.

energy which is electric to watch some of the dialogue in subtitles just says unintelligible dialogue when you're like my mom man like do you remember your audition for that did you audition oh yeah yeah i Was that the character that you brought to it there? So I auditioned. I went in for Skeet's role. And... Lisa Beach, who's the cast director, I love her to pieces, was like, I don't think you're this guy.

But here is the role of Stu. Wes Craven is going to be here in two hours. I want you to audition for Wes. So I literally went into the lobby and smashed lines for two hours. And then walked in, I basically said to Wes, I was like, I have a general sense of what this is, but I can memorize on the day. This may not be word perfect. but i'm here to play and let's see what happens it's two completely different energies oh yeah didn't know

I'm assuming at that point that Stu was one of the killers. No, you did. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm surprised. Oh, yeah. There was no internet. That was before. Nobody really gave me shit. Red pages for the sequel. It's just like that. It's still a Wes Craven movie. Yeah, but even then. Do you remember Wes Craven's movie was Vampire in Brooklyn? Yeah, exactly. He was not in a rich vein of form. He had made great movies, had sort of like his energy dissipated and was not making great movies.

movies and along came a script that changed reinvigorated yeah um but and i got so in the room he gave me the part he's like that was great I would like you to play this part. And that movie changed everything. It made slashers cool again. It made slashers smart for the first time. It was like the first movie.

where the characters in it had seen all the movies the audience had seen. But that's what I mean. It almost weaponized what I was talking about before, where I'm like, that's me on screen. We're relating to each other. And then all of a sudden, oh, fuck.

But that made it real. That guy's a killer. That made it scary. And Kevin's script was so... It was witty. It was funny. It was like everyone was such a good character. You know, the funny thing is before that, everyone was so... concerned with making films timeless. They didn't want date references. They didn't want idiosyncratic language. Because it felt like they timestamped it. Because people didn't want to go back and watch a movie from 1996.

So they always were trying to keep it so broad. And Kevin threw that whole idea out the window. And was like, no, we're going to make it absolutely right now. Which was... super meta and super like it was the beginning of this relationship with the audience that had never existed before the whole idea was like no no no no pay no attention to time or the audience

Just make a movie. So it lasts the test of time. When did you even realize this is what you wanted to do? And not just school plays or a hobby, but like make a career at it. Yeah, I don't think I ever had that sort of moment. I started acting when I was an eighth grader. And my dad said you could take a typing class or an acting class. The idea being at some point you're going to be a salesman.

So you have to be comfortable in front of people. And I was the only time in my life I was good at something. I then went on to do, excuse me, as I throw up in my mouth. so then I went on to do college right and in college like I took whatever 20 credits my first year of college I failed all my regular credit classes and I spent the entire I went to a junior college I spent the entire time in acting class

And then I didn't get the lead in the play that I wanted at the end of my first year. And I said to my mentor, Gary Crinkey, who I like calling out, because if he ever hears this, he'll love it. I was like, why didn't you hire me for this part in this play called Tracers? And he's like, because we save leads for people that have been here for more than two years so that they never come back.

So we give them a lead and they go away. I'm like, well, I'm not going to fucking wait around for two years to get a lead. I'm out of here. He's like, yeah, go to an acting school. So I went to acting school for a year. Where'd you go?

I went to American Academy of Dramatic Arts in Pasadena. Okay. And I didn't get the part in that play, but all of a sudden we had seen study class and everyone got a three to five minute scene. And so I gathered all the guys in that class. I'm like, we're going to.

to do tracers. We're going to combine our time instead of doing two person scenes. We're going to do the first half of the play. Wow. And the teacher was like, that's great. You guys should do the whole play. I'm like, well, why don't you direct it? And my partner at the time, Dalton Grant. We were like, let's put on this play. She's like, how do you get money? I was like, well, if we start a theater company and everyone pays us $50 a month, we'll take that money, then we'll produce a play.

And the money we make from the play will go back into the coffers, but we'll have to produce a lot of plays. So at 19 years old, I started a theater company in Hollywood, California with Dalton Grant called Mean Street Ensemble. And we went on to do... like 10 plays in a year and a half, just having all these adults pay us 50 bucks a month. So there you are, a 19-year-old. I'll never forget, we're auditioning people.

And a guy who's probably my age now came in to audition. He's like, well, where are the artistic directors? That's us, sir. It's us with beepers on and like hats backwards. And we thought we were just the shit. And the crazy thing is looking at all these sort of incredible actors, hiring them, putting them in plays.

You know, I realized looking at their resumes, like I didn't have enough training. I was super charming. I loved what I was doing. Like I was just, I was acting all the time, but I was like, not, I wasn't ready to be. An incredible fucking actor. But you're still very young then. Yeah. When you're getting started, how did you navigate like your twenties and thirties through this industry and avoid.

some of the pitfalls we've seen other people go down, whether it's just the, a lot of people forget, yeah, they've seen actors they love and all these things, but what they don't see is all the rejection. For reasons that you'll never even know why. Or the projects that fell apart. Or the people turning to drugs or alcohol. Whatever it might be. They just see you in the finished thing where you're great. How did you avoid that stuff? How did you stay centered? I then went to New York.

So I realized anymore. I went to New York. I studied at Circle in the Square, an incredible school. Yeah, yeah. Wait, what years? I was 22 when I went, so 1992 to 93. Holy shit. Yeah, yeah. Did you like it? Oh, yeah. It's incredible. In fact, I went back and taught last week. Really? Yeah, yeah. I love it. It's an incredible program. If anyone's out there listening, I'm just trying to advocate. I'm from New York, and that was like where, like, if it wasn't Juilliard.

Yeah, no. Seymour Hoffman went there. Paul Rudd went for a year, I think. There's this incredible collection. Do they teach you how to be stage ready or camera ready or both? It's theater ready. That's what I thought. Especially back then. I stepped on set at Serial Mom. The week I wrapped, I went back to school, and I was like, I'm going to teach a class.

And Colin O'Leary, who's the head of the school, was like, why? I was like, because you're not teaching anyone anything about being on set. And I just learned baptism by fire. So I'm going to teach a class. But my answer to that, like, how do you avoid pitfalls? I am an actor first and foremost. So I was never really the guy chasing fame. I was never trying to be famous. I was never trying to make money. I just kept going. And then my third audition was Serial Mom.

So I immediately walked into my waiting table job and I quit on a Saturday night. And my manager was hilarious. My manager was like, you know, I've had a lot of actors. They go and do a movie and come back and they want their job. I don't think you should bail out on the Saturday night shift. And I literally said, I invited the entire class at Circle and Square, and we're going to drink all night. And so we did. We sat there, got shit-faced. My dad was in town. He got shit-faced with us.

Can I ask, did you know who John Waters was? No. God, no. I didn't. And at that point, I went and rented Pink Flamingos, and I was like, oh, my God. Jesus. Maybe not the right one. Oh, shit. Everyone's like, John Waters of Pink Flamingo. And I was like, okay, I'll watch this. Is that...

Is that a man or a woman? What is divine? What is happening here? That was when John was transitioning into polyester and hairspray. He wasn't as transgressive as he was with multiple maniacs and pink flamingos and shit like that. But to jump into that. that one and then go wait they're giving him money for what the fuck was Kathleen Turner attached at that point and like I had auditioned and they had already hired somebody in LA

And the casting director was like, you got to see this guy. And they fired. I went back twice. Wow. They fired the dude in L.A. And I got the job. And the funny thing is I told him I was 18. This is a funny story. I told him I was 18 and Chip was 18 in the film. I was probably 22 and maybe even 23. I don't know how old I was. On the first day of shooting, he came, he found me in my trailer. He's like, you told me you were fucking 18. Because I lied.

And he found out that I lied. And he was so angry in the moment. So angry. What if he believed you were 18? What does it matter? You can't ask somebody what their age is. I mean, you're not allowed to ask somebody their age. Oh, sure. It's actually illegal. My manager was like, just tell people you're 18. I'm like, well, okay. It would have been worse.

Had you been like 15 and lied that you were 18? Yes, that's illegal. But from that movie, I mean, obviously working with John Waters is a singular experience. It's not like... Every filmmaker who's going to bring their own chutzpah, if you will. What do you think that you learned from that experience? Because obviously, you know, what was the thing that you had done after that? Would it be like Mad Love or something like that?

Probably. Does that make sense? Yeah, maybe. To go from being stage ready to now, and I do want to ask you about film versus digital, but we'll do that later. to go on to set and to be in that environment and I'm sure that you know from what I've read from books and stuff like that that John likes to have a very particular environment when he's working you know

How do you feel like that prepared you or not prepared you for the forthcoming films after that? Well, I mean, look, my whole thing is that every film you step on is completely different. And you learn very early on. It's like... and I say this to actors all the time, like your job is to immediately get there and assess what are we dealing with, right? And so instinctually early on...

As a young actor, the only thing you don't want to do is screw up. So you're so cautious. You're like, I need to hit my mark. I need to say the line perfect. I need to drink. I want everything to be right because I don't want to get in trouble. But you're just a kid. So you're really trying not to make mistakes. So early on, you're just a plea following, you know, making sure you're not screwing anything up. It's funny. John's first.

um the first day i worked by myself i was the only person on the call sheet um his his First note to me is like, do it again. Just don't do it so faggy. Oh, my God. I wasn't doing it that way. And you're not allowed to say that. He can. He can. Yeah, he can. a long time ago. But I was like, I...

I didn't even know how to take that note. Like, you know, you translate notes. That's the funny thing. Some directors, I think, you know, David Lynch was like, do it again. Just do it more blue. And I was like, yeah, I got you. Totally got it. Whatever you want to say. People scream at you. Do it more funny. Do it less shitty. The worst is just not that. The worst direction I've ever given. Frozen, I yelled up to the chairlift. Emma.

More better. More better than kids. And even I was like, I don't know what the fuck that means. More better than kids. That but funnier. Those are always good. Did you get to go to the John Waters exhibit? I did. How fucking crazy was that? It was really lovely. It just makes me think, you know, there isn't an advantage to being a hoarder. Did you get to go? Did you see it? The John Waters exhibit? No, I didn't. He had fucking call sheets.

From like pink flamingos and even the shit before that. Yeah, he had everything I wish I had but that's because we all like Landis was always like that too where he's like oh yeah I have look check out this old call sheet from three amigos like in his garage I'm just like oh and I always think like you know someday

Someday this wrong turn to like like the director's chair thing is gonna be worth something someday in most cases I shouldn't say that every now and then There's a reason to go into a box of something and then all of a sudden you'll find like I found that the director's back uh the first hatchet is in that case there like you still find stuff but i wish i had meticulously

Because it especially affects people. Yeah. They number, like, what take it was used on. Like, they save, like, all that stuff. Probably because it's worth... Well, now there's a whole industry, cottage industry about that. I mean, Mike Flanagan has an incredible collection that, you know, the first time I went over... house he's like this is the flanaplex yeah it's so good by the way it's pretty incredible but he's got like he his his collection's incredible

I do think this idea of like, how do you avoid pitfalls? Right. The idea of like, how do you first of all, it's really hard to sort of be human in this business because what everything you think. um, equal success walking in, you realize very quickly as you achieve it as zero to do with success, right? The idea of like, you know, Oh, I've done a movie. I've made it. This is incredible. You know, very,

quickly after that first movie, all you want is the next movie and the next movie. And there's no amount of filmmaking that satiates that desire. So therefore there's no joy in any of it, right? There's no amount of like, I am not a rich man. I've made lots of money over the course of my life, but that there's no amount of money. Like I'm done. I'm out. Like there's nothing is satisfying. So the thing that is always, if none of the business that we're chasing is satisfying.

Right. Then what is the thing that brings you joy? And identifying that is really important. And so for me, it's always about people. It's always about gathering people. It's always about the fellowship. It's about being, I'm an actor because I love being in Greed for Gold, which is the first play I ever did.

The theater company was really about being with other people. So it's that collective. Yes, it's about people. It's about the experience. That's what I never understood about. There's some directors who are like, I hate being on set. I hate it. I love it. I love that collective of people. Everybody gathers together in the morning. They got their breakfast burritos. They got their sides. And we're all just kind of standing there. And then slowly but surely organically, things start to move.

And things start to happen. And you watch creative things happen. And all of a sudden, it's midway through the day. And for the director, sometimes it goes, like we joke all the time, it's like it goes from Lawrence of Arabia to Dukes of Hazzard when you're trying to get all the shots you need done. But for the most part...

There is nothing better than like I can think of so many moments that in the movies that I've done where I can look around. I wish I had a 360 and watching everybody just being part of the process. And in most cases, unless you have a toxic set.

People are enjoying that moment. And they're forgetting about the bills and the divorce papers and all the shit that's around them. They're feeding off of everyone's creativity. I love that. I fucking love that. But I think what you might... not be factoring in is for many directors set is

Yes, it's those things, but it's also the heartbreak of there's not enough time to compromise of the way I wanted to do it They're making me change this this isn't see but I see that is that's problem solving because I know now I think maybe after

After Nights of Badass and when I went in going, fuck you, sophomore slump. I'm going in. I'm going to make this thing look like fucking John Borman's Excalibur. And then when I found out that, no, I'm making it look like The Exorcist 2, The Heretic, then I went, oh, shit, another John Borman movie. I'm fucked. And then.

But I realized you have to problem solve. You have to pivot. Yeah, my whole thing, I directed a movie. It's one of my favorite things I've ever done. I thought I would for sure go off and direct a thousand more movies and never act again. I'd rather direct every single time. ever act together. Really? Yeah, yeah. I loved it. The problem is that there's only one director for every film.

And it's much easier to get acting jobs. And at some point, I was like, it was also like independent film. You spend a year. I had the rights for eight years. Adaptation of a book called Fat Kid Rules the World. Adaptation took forever. I let the rights go. I got them back when I figured out how to sell it. We made the movie with Whitewater Films. Rick Rosenthal is an icon. He's been such a mentor to me.

And we go off to make the movie. That whole process is like a 10-year process. I made zero money. It took me two years to finish the whole damn thing. And I was like exhausted with nothing to show for it except for a film that lives. It's not even on.

streaming services. I mean, it's crazy. I remember when it came out though, and what's funny that you mentioned Rick Rosenthal because I remember when they were making that movie, I'm like, wait a second, Rick Rosenthal who did Halloween 2? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, this was around the time that Rick did the New Beverly, the infamous New Beverly. screening. Remember that? When he went up there? It's a whole thing. Really quick. There's a screening following to...

At the New Beverly. I love this fucking story. And at the time, a lot of us were really kind of just getting started in the horror community. So it was this whole group of like filmmakers, the biggest nerds. The Fright Club. And it was the worst.

Q&A anyone has ever sat through because no one involved with the movie knew anything about it and so one of the first and poor Brian Collins was moderating and one of the first questions was why the use of the song Mr. Sandman in this film and it was rick right who said well because it was in the first one and the audience starts murmuring like no it wasn't and then

I can't remember the actress's name who played the nurse. She goes, y'all got to understand. This was the first big role for an African-American in a horror movie. And everyone's like. Night of the Living Dead. What are you talking about? But everything they said. The audience just turned on them. It wasn't. And it was so uncomfortable and I'll never forget it. How did you hook up with Rick? I had this script.

The book, I read this book on tape. I read it. See, he read it. I'm a big audible fan. I get shit all the time. You didn't really read it. No, I read the book on tape, so I was the voice. Oh, well, that really doesn't count. It doesn't count at all. So you can admonish him for so many things, but not that right now. And I read like the first 20 pages and I...

Broke out in tears about this obese teenager. I was a fat kid who jumps in front of a train trying to kill himself. I was like, I took a time out and went outside. I called my manager and I said, I want to option this book. By the time I got done doing the book. We had connected with Kelly, with Kale going and I optioned the book. I had the book, I had the script written.

um galvin and speakman wrote the script great script i'm like i can't do it for less than 20 million dollars and this is like in the middle of me doing all these warner brother films i'm like it's an obese teenager we gotta tell the story i was like i can't do it for less than 10 i can't do it for less than seven Can't do less than four. And finally, I said to KL, I've been shopping this thing around. And this is like four years later, five years later, I finally gave it back to her.

Long story, way too long. I was doing another movie and we went to the Vans Warped Tour. And I looked around this little venue of punk rock kids. And the Vans Warped Tour did 52 dates in like 70 days during the summer. Yep. And I was like, oh, we're going to take that film. We're going to put it on. Same thing you were talking about. But I found the machinery of using conventions. I'm like, this is our machinery.

We're going to premiere it in every city. This film is going to be on tour. Was this after South by Southwest? Because I remember, isn't that where you premiered it? Yeah, but figuring out the mechanics. Finding the audience. Yeah, and then I do readings in my house every week. Every two weeks I do like a play reading. And so I was like, hey, I'm doing a reading of this script that...

I'm now brushing off because I haven't read it in like two years. At that reading was a guy named Ryan Lewis. Ryan Lewis took it to Whitewater. I sat with Rick. And Rick's like, I like the script. I'll tell you what, let's do a collection of scenes and if we get along, we'll both pay for it. If we get along and you can direct and the process goes great, then we'll talk about producing the movie.

So I'm like, okay, great. I'll put in 10 grand. You put in 10 grand, which is a lot of money. He was like, I thought we just shoot it. I'm like a camera. I was like, he's like, why? I was like, because I'm going to fly to Seattle. I'm going to meet with my sister who's the head of the film commission in Seattle. We're going to meet all the next heads of departments. And I'm going to say to them, if we get this movie made.

It's going to work for nothing. But if we shoot for three days and we make a killer tape, then we're going to make the movie and we'll bring it back to Seattle. So first day of shooting, this is a long story, sorry. Is that right? No, this is great. So first day of shooting, Ben Kosolke is my DP. We have zero shot lists or the shot looks like 70 shots or something crazy. And it's like a...

An eight-page scene. He's like, we'll do this. We'll do it. I'm like, okay. And I've never shot anything. I'm like, oh, that's aggressive. But okay, we can do it. We're in. Let's go. Truck shows up like four hours late. Oh my God. It's a practical location. And we're like, and so I'm in the middle of the floor. I'm killing my shot list. I'm rewriting the scene and we make the day.

At the end of the day, Rick Rosenthal comes up to me. He's like, we're going to make this movie, but you have to hire that kid. This kid's name is Jacob Wasaki. Oh, who played the lead. Who played the lead. Yeah. He was great in that too. He's incredible. But my idea was like, no matter what happens, I'm going to have a tape that I can show around that we will...

People won't know I'm a director. Looking back at... that process because you know so many we've had actors turn directors on the show there's so many of our favorite directors have started out in acting and a lot of times they always talk about like well you know when you work with the best like i just we just heard um

Anna Kendrick, who has a movie, Women of the Hour, that's out now on Netflix. Oh, it's so good. Fucking great movie that she directed. It is one of the best serial killer movies in the last couple years. And she's talking about all the directors that she kind of... remembered being on set and watching them work were there any directors because you've worked with so many different directors over the years were there like looking back at just that moment of problem solving and figuring out like

I don't need a shot list or I have every shot put up on a fucking board on the wall and we're going to cross them off. Is there any director or maybe it's just like the way that you interacted with the actors. Was there any director or directors that you can go, you know what? I took a little. from that one and a little from that one, or was it just organic? It was, look, I had been doing plays, directing plays, being, I mean, I've spent my whole life doing it.

In stepping into that role, at no point was I like, look, for the longest time, because I didn't go to college, I have a severe learning disability. I couldn't spell. I couldn't do math. I have my own things. about myself i hope people all heard that because like when you said before like you were you only took like 20 credits and were failing or you had a learning disability and stuff because it's been a while since i've done this rant but um

There's this thing in high school where they scare the shit out of you, where if you're not in the advanced classes or you don't get into the college you want to go to, you're fucked. And you're never going to be able to achieve whatever it is you want to do. And it's not true. And so anytime somebody comes on who...

points out something like that like i didn't get good grades or i didn't get into the school i wanted to go to or my first thing failed it doesn't mean anything it doesn't mean it's over so Listen, I say the same thing to actors. The whole thing about acting school is they're pushing towards this scene night.

And everything hangs on the scene. And I'm like, it's like judging a baby on their first steps. It's literally your introduction to this industry. And you think that that defines you? Well, if you think that defines you, you're not going to make it anyway. So either, you know.

understand what it is and move through it or let it define you and you're never going to make it anyways. I mean, you know, people, it's really hard to make in this business. It takes a certain personality to sort of get through it. And my whole thing is like, when faced with what I call a riddle every single day of shooting. Every department has a different, it's a stupid analogy, but every department has a plate.

in the beginning of the day and they throw it up and their job is to hit the plate because they're going to make the day. And some people have a bazooka and blow the shit out of it. And some people are like trying to load a slingshot as the plate's crashing down.

So you're like, you know, every day. That's a script supervisor. How do I answer riddle? You know, every day is a riddle. But I like the riddle. I'm never like... preconceived notion to me is the death of everything if you're like it has to be this then you're disallowing the entire creative process every director has come to me like this is how you do it I have a director on this movie who's like, yeah, you're doing too much. I'm like, you know you hired me, right?

Like, they're like, do less, do less, do less, do less. I need less. I need less. And I'm like, bro, fucking sit in the, roll, you come do this shit. I, that's not how I do it. So if you want to, you know, those people that are like, it has to be this are.

disallowing every other instinct from every other professional on the set. If I'm working with a DP that shot a million hours of film and I'm telling them this is the exact shot I want, well then you're completely... neutering every instinct of their professional opinion and that's like the worst like my whole thing is like seeing people and making and being the thing

that inspires them to get to the next level and going, fuck, that's great. This is my basic idea. Can you make it better? Or what do you think? Can you elevate it? Yes. Let it filter through your creative engine.

You know, instead of just going like, no, I want to take that avatar that you are and mold it into this. All right. I want to ask a question to you guys. And I'm glad that you're here because this is something that's been coming up a lot in a lot of projects that I've been doing. I know you deal with it a lot. When did you become offer only? Oh, I'm not offer only.

You're not at all? Are you kidding? Really? No, God, no. Really? Descendants, do you think I got that as an offer? Yeah, but after maybe like Scream or Scooby-Doo or something like that? No, I just auditioned. Oh, I had to go in and screen test. I'm on a new show. called Cross Season 2. Did I go in and screen test? I had to go in and screen test for Ben Watkins as the creative lead on it.

And Aldous Hodge was there. And they were like, yeah, they want you to screen test for the role. I'm like, I'm not screen testing. I've been in this business for 30 years. I'm going to go in and screen test. And just so people know at home. When you screen test, everyone who's up for that part is in the room. Like you come in and you sit in a room and you sign a contract.

That tells you how much you're going to make before you go in. So heartbreaking. And then you're sitting next to the five guys that are up for the role. Who also signed the same contract. Negotiated their own contract so they could be making more or less. And you have to sit there and listen.

Do other people work in a room that is like that you have to go in the tap dance in the next moment? So I was like, no, I'm not going. I don't need this job. What do I care? I have cons. I don't need this job. And then as I sat there in it. I realized my own fear, my own ego, my own insecurity. I'm like, why do I care? This is my chance to work. Yeah. Just go fucking win the job and go work.

And so it was very funny. I was like, I'll screen test. I've got to go first. And I don't want to listen. I can't be in a room. I don't want to be sitting there with other people. Yeah. I'm like, great. We'll totally take care of that. So they were supposed to start at 1 o'clock. Everything's running late. As it always is. It starts at 2 o'clock. But at like 1.30, everyone starts showing up. And now I'm sitting there all of a sudden.

The casting people are like, hey, Matt, we know you're not supposed to be in this room, so we're going to put you in this little tiny room. Did they pull you out in front of everybody else? Yeah, but they were like...

we have a deal that I'm not supposed to be sitting with everyone. And nobody wants to be sitting with me and I don't want to be sitting with everyone. So they're like, okay, we're going to move you into this little office. That's like literally, it's the office right off of the lob. little waiting room so I'm sitting there I'm kind of like and the part is like a monologue it's like a three page monologue and

I'm kind of like walking in the room and I'm kind of whispering it to myself. And I'm like, oh, why am I whispering? So I start doing a full voice and I know. Like I can feel, I'm going to crush this shit. And the more I'm going full voice, the more I'm like, hang there. I'm like getting, you know, I'm like going full voice. And they open the door and every dude in the room is like, what the fuck? Because I've now been spitting.

In this room. And I walked in and, you know, I got the, I mean, I won the job in the room. I mean, I didn't get, they didn't give it to me in the room, but. But that's still, it's a great attitude to have because I think there's a lot of people in this industry, once they've accomplished. stuff.

Their work is known. They start feeling like, well, now I deserve this or that. But you always have to keep working for what's next. You always have to keep proving yourself. Listen, if it's a job you really want, they're going to want to see you. If it's a job everyone in Hollywood wants.

you're going to compete. I mean, I went in for James Gunn. I want to work with James Gunn desperately. Everyone's like, what's the next movie you want to do? What part do you want to do? My answer has always been James Gunn's next movie. Now it's James Gunn and Mike Flanagan's next movie because I love it. both those guys but you know like you have to go get that job I'm not getting the offer from Marvel Marvel's not giving me an offer I have to get a job I learned how to write

from Gunn's first draft of Scooby-Doo. Oh, really? So when I first got signed at UTA... They're like, look, your dialogue's great, your character's your voice, but you just need to work on your structure. His script happened to be on the top of the pile, and they're like, just read this and study the structure. And that was the one where they like...

mentioned that they euthanized Scrappy. I don't know if you read that draft, but it was like, it's dark. It was dark. It was a PG-13. Yeah. And I'm like, this is the... best thing ever. Cause I loved Scooby Doo. And then I'm reading that script and then I'm like, can I meet this guy? He was like literally the first friend I made in college. And he was like, you want to meet me? Sure. Cause he wasn't James Gunn, James Gunn then. Um, but He was just the former writer of Troma. I took his job.

When he left Troma to do Moesha, the sitcom Moesha, he left and they're like, well, we need a new writer. And I'm like, I passed James and he left. He's like, ah, see you later, kid. And then later on, it was like. oh shit you took my job oh like what a fucking small world but the fact that he went from Tromeo and Juliet you know back in the day scraping along to be able to do Scooby Doo you know now he's the head of DC I mean it's crazy

imagine what it must've been like to be like on the set of Scooby-Doo back at WB back then going someday this will all be yours pretty much. Right. It's fucking, but it's that, I hate to say it, but it's those kinds of stories that keep us. fueled but like another great example because after slither which was great and so they didn't make much

What did he do? He went and he did a tiny little movie, Super, which just so happened to be the right example and voice for Guardians. And then even when he got Guardians, I was like, man, this is where Marvel is going to fall. No one cares about Guardians of the Galaxy. They're not.

huge character, and then fucking just killed it. James was in our sitcom. He played a character in our show. Our bully. He played our childhood bully. He was our bully. Yeah, it's funny. He's such a great guy. Speaking of Scooby-Doo, really quick. I just watched it again with my wife last weekend, and the thing that makes... That sounds miserable. No way. Dude, we had a fight over which one to watch. I love the... Fuck you. Those movies are great. You need a fucking new wife. No? Yeah.

She needs to leave you and you need to find somebody. That movie rocks. My wife has only watched one Disney movie in her life. She probably wouldn't watch it. But part of the reason why that movie works for some people is your eyeline.

is so fantastic with the the dog that is not there yeah and like you know there was always this joke years ago about um you know when brad pitt did cool world remember cool world sure yeah and you know like when he's looking at the kim basinger animated character it's like and he's looking over there you know it's like he's talking to something that is clearly not in the way where the eyeline should be and you know the illusion is shot

Watching this again, and this was when I knew that you were coming on, so I'm like, oh, I guess I'll do a little research. So I remember watching the movie. Because I think when you start making movies, you really do notice eye lines and how like sudden when you realize that something is amiss, when it's a lot of times where you realize, oh, that person's looking at a tennis ball or something, you know, like or they're supposed to be looking at a dinosaur and it's just.

somebody going ah it's the believability is not there and the magic is not there because you're not believing it what if anything was there a trick for you in terms of how you addressed the dog? Was it the script supervisor who was reading the lines? Was it Raja who was doing it? It's a great story, actually. So there was nothing there, right? And... they had a guy that they had cast for the on-set voice of Scooby-Doo.

It wasn't Frank Welker, right? No, no. Frank Welker does the voice now. His original Fred is doing Scooby for the last 30 years. But they never actually even auditioned Frank, which is crazy to me. But the story is crazy. So we... So they were casting somebody to be the on set voice.

They were doing auditions, and this guy was in a gaggle group, and he was practicing his Scooby-Doo voice. And the guy named Neil Fanning was in the same gaggle group. And is it called gaggle group? What's it called? I think it is. Although they call it, there's different names for it, but I always grew up calling it that. Yeah. So anyway, so Neil Fanning was sitting there and he's like, what? He's like, what are you doing the Scooby voice for?

And he's like, yeah, I'm auditioning for the on-set voice of Scooby. And he's like, oh, well. And the guy's like, oh, my God, you're incredible. You should go. Is that all it took? God damn it. I would have had this shit on lock. It's crazy. So he calls his agent. And the agent. goes yeah they're not seeing anyone anymore and Frank Neil goes and the agent goes hold on a sec so calls the next day

I'm addressing every phone call with that from now on. So, yeah. So he calls the next day and they're like, yeah, we have our voice. And he's like, well, hold on a sec. Gets Frank on the, gets Neil on the call. And they're like, okay, come in. So he comes in, he auditions for Richard Suckle, the producer. He's like, we already got someone. And Neil goes, and he's like, okay, hold on a sec. So they get him in the transpo van. They go out to the rainforest and he traipses.

through the rainforest, they were doing a scout, and Raja Gosnell's on set, and he's like, are you Raja Gosnell? He goes, yeah. He's like, I'm supposed to audition for the voice of Scooby-Doo. He's like, why? We have someone. And Neil goes, he's like that guy's fired you're the new voice of Scooby Doo so Neil Fanning is on set every day for six months so what happens is that first of all he's An incredible voice actor. I mean, he's like, he does scoop.

Scooby-Doo is perfect. The guy was driving the stunt boat in the Police Academy 7 Universal Studios on the Gold Coast. He was driving the stunt boat for the stunt show. Like this guy had been the stuntman for 15 years at Universal Studios. And he just so happened to love Scooby-Doo. And he just so happened to do an impression. And he just so happened to be in the room to hear about the audition. Gets the job. He's then the on-set voice for Scooby-Doo.

six months, all anyone hears back in LA is his voice off camera. So when it comes time to... to do the whole film, to voice over the whole film. There's a guy in town named Scott Innes and Neil Fanning are the two guys that are up for the job. And Scott Innes basically has the job. And we are like, no. F. Scott fucking Innes. Neil Fanning deserves the job. So they then like dub the entire movie, but they dub the first half of the film.

They give to Scott in this the second half the film has all the action it has the emotional core of the film and we as a cast put all of our our love behind Neil and Neil got the movie. So Neil does the first movie. The second movie, they don't want to hire him because he's down in Australia and we shoot in Canada. And I'm like, I'm not doing the movie without Neil Fanning.

And then they didn't want to pay him. I'm like, you tell him that you're not doing it and I will back you up. And we got Neil Fanning to do the movie in Canada and he got paid. Oh, that's great. Which is great. And then we did this world tour and... people in the cast didn't want to do the world tour. So Neil and I and Linda Carlini ended up doing this world tour. That's so great.

Fuck. Yeah, but he becomes integral to every performance. Was he the one you were looking at? No, maybe sometimes, but in general, there's so much. You're moving so fast. Um, but he, I had him in my ear and he was reading all the off camera stuff. So I always have a representative at the very least, like, like in the, uh, air, the, um, airplane scene. That's one of those scenes where like, Clearly, like, there are moments, and even just towards the end, the...

More emotional moments. Sure, yeah, yeah. There's no way that... Friends don't quit, Scoob. Like, all of that stuff. See? Fuck you. Don't tell me that Scooby-Doo isn't quality cinema. But if you're working off the script super, or even the director, who's probably got 50 other things... on his mind he's like oh yeah um like it's not gonna work and he would run it all the time and so like the other thing is like look my belief in acting is the harder you pretend the better it is so

It's really easy to sort of throw a lazy eyeline. But if you focus and you were looking, well, then there's full commitment. And it makes it easy for the animators to... to work off of what you're doing. So it was a three-way collaboration between the animators, who was... I want to give them a shout out, but I forgot the name of the company that did it. And then Neil and I, everyone made me look good in that moment. I want to make sure we talk about your latest endeavor.

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. It's so funny. What a segue, boys. Wow. It's also the World Series starts. The World Series is starting right now. So, yeah. So. Look, at the end of the day, there's something about having everyone else in the world, everything we've talked about today is about the passion I have for this job, for what I love to do. I've been doing it since I was a kid. It's the only thing I've ever loved to do.

that's not true I love to do lots of things but it is you know it's my favorite place to be is on set and waiting for other people to give you permission is a shitty way to live a life

It's just really miserable. There's something that Biden talked about in the first cycle that he was running. He's talked about the dignity of work, which has always stuck with me because as actors, as artists, we define ourselves by what we do. And yet, so infrequently, we... to do what we love the most so a long time ago i learned the way i get through these down periods in life is to create opportunities whether it's i'm creating

a charity event, whether I'm doing teaching, whatever, I'm always, I have so many things going on because I want my life full. I don't want to be waiting on Hollywood. And so part of that is that I started a company with my partners that I played D&D with. Circle in the Square, called Beetle and Grams. We create high-end box editions for Dungeons & Dragons. That is direct customer sort of home run success. All my partners have left their companies. They work full-time on that.

My writer named Justin Ware and I did a movie together 100 years ago. We've been friends. And he saw what his buddy from high school was doing, which was selling a company called Blue Run. And Blue Run sells direct customers as well. They blew up. That company sold for millions of dollars.

And so that was going direct to customers. So Justin was like, is there a world we combine fandoms with whiskey and build something that goes direct to customer? Bypassing distribution, bypassing the weight of getting it into venues. It's an incredible opportunity to tell stories and build stuff. So I jumped at it. He and I and Tim in some capacity or another went off to... basically spent a year setting up this company called Find Familiar Spirits which is a spell in Dungeons and Dragons and

We launched, October 2nd last year, we launched Quest's End, which is the Dungeons & Dragons high fantasy themed whiskey. And each bottle is a different character in an ongoing saga. that spans 16 different drops. So each bottle is different. So we open up with Saren of the Pit. She's a female paladin. She's fighting to win her freedom. Who is the dungeon master in this?

scenario then? No, there's no DM. It's like a story. It's an ongoing story. Each bottle comes with a booklet. The art is done by Tyler Jacobson. The story is by Kate Welsh. So each bottle has the next chapter of the story. represents the character that it's about. Who determines which character gets the particular flavor?

Well, our master blender. So it goes Paladin, Rogue, Warlock, and then Dragon. So that's our first season. Dragon drops in November, and that finishes off the first season. But each... One of these characters, whether it's the paladin or the rogue or warlock, all of them have a different liquid expression that we basically say to our master blender, hey, this is our rogue. He's Uwe. He's a snow elf.

He's incredibly lithe. He's beautiful. He's charming and snarky. So then she interprets that into liquid. The warlock is different than the paladin. which is different than the dragon, right? The dragon's smoky. It's barrel-aged and sherry barrel. So it's got like this depth to it. And there's multiple blends. that make this really high-end whiskey experience. So we built that for the D&D community. They embraced us. It's been a huge hit. And now we're doing the same thing with tequila.

and the horror community. So we've created Macabre Spirits. It went on sale yesterday. Macabre is a delicious reposado out of Jalisco, Mexico. But each, our value proposition when we start engaging. is not how we sell to a community it's like what is the value we bring to a community and then how do we authentically build something that they'll be excited about

So for Macabre, we went to Mike Flanagan, who has written an unbelievably terrifying 80-page short story. He was just talking about it. We were at dinner, and he's like, yeah, I just wrote this thing for Lillard. I'm like... And I'm like, oh, what is it? I'm thinking, is it a TV show? Is it a movie? He goes, no, it's tequila. I'm like, what?

What the fuck? It's crazy. What does that even mean? It's crazy. So that's the whole thing. So we went to Mike. I did Life of Chalk, which is an awesome film we talked about earlier. And I was like, hey, would you be interested in sort of writing? this this first novella he had never written a horror story um it was supposed to be like 15 12 to 15 000 words i get a text at like midnight saying what if i go over i'm like go for it bro uh he ended up delivering

just under 80,000 words. He was talking about how, not to divert, but... Stephen King was told by Bernie Wrightson, this artist Bernie Wrightson from the 80s, he was making a calendar. And he was like, hey, Stephen, can you write a calendar, like a short story for me for this calendar? I was thinking about doing it about werewolf, right?

So Stephen's like, sure, that sounds great. This was also when Stephen King was a little... and then what he delivered was a full novella which was Cycle of the Werewolf which turned into Silver Bullet so he over delivered a little bit so it sounds like what Mike did a little bit maybe without the cocaine Mike is like he got super excited and wrote this really fucked up short story that, look, our goal is to...

see a community and build something that they'll be excited about and that we can, we don't want to be the biggest tequila in the world. We want to be the biggest tequila for you. And every time you open a macabre spirit. box. It's an unboxing experience. The box is incredible. Where can people get it? So you can go to macabre spirits.com and it's for sale. Awesome. All right.

Thank you. I forgot that's the business end of life. That's why we're here. And it's been this lovely conversation about life and work. And I really have had a blast. Thank you. Well, okay. One final thing. And this is something I want to say. I know we did it.

With Randy Harlan and I think Kevin Smith might have been the last time. So this is episode 600. That was episode 500. But we used to do it all the time. We don't do it that much anymore. Oh, you're pulling this out. Yes. And I swear I'm going to keep this very quick because the World Series is starting. By the time this airs, people will know if it was the Dodgers or the Yankees who won. But I gave up on baseball in 2004 because I'm a Red Sox fan. Oh, yeah, yeah. It will never be better than...

that like nothing could ever happen. That's that again. Crazy. So I'm like, just retire the sport. Uh, there's a documentary about the 2004 Red Sox, uh, Netflix now. Okay. Um, uh, Years ago, 10 years ago at this point, I went through awful, awful shit, death, divorce, just everything that could have gone wrong. And I was in such a dark place. And then a friend of ours, Casey Tebow, was like,

Hey, I'm making this movie with Steven Tyler. Would you go to his house and coach him on something? Just give him some ideas for this part. Now, at the time, I was like anorexic then. I couldn't leave my house. I had my mirrors covered up in tinfoil or towels. It was really, really bad. And the only thing that could have gotten me out of the house was that. because I'm the biggest Aerosmith fan. My cat was named Tyler. My other cat was named Perry. And I'm like...

Yeah, I'll go. And so I go to his house. He was actually living in Salma Hayek's old house at the time, oddly enough. I used to date Salma Hayek. No, he didn't. He directed her at something. And anyway. Almost the same thing. Yeah, it kind of was.

I walk in and this was technically the second time I met him because the first time was backstage at a show. He had done a voice for Robot Chicken. So Seth was like, do you want to come back and meet him? I'm like, sure. And I fucking blew it because I meant to say I named my cat after you. But all I said is. have a cat and I froze and he just went alright man cool so this time I'm on my A game and we're sitting there and we're talking about stuff and then suddenly he goes hey man

I'm so sorry. I forgot to say congratulations. And I was like, for what? And again, I am at my lowest point feeling like I'm worthless. And he's like, that's the thing, man, as artists. We need to remember to do that, man. He's like, congratulations on your movies, your TV show, your studio, all the stuff you've done. Has anyone ever told you that? And people had, but not Steven Tyler.

And he's like, you always got to remember to do that when you meet somebody else who knows what it's like. You got to look him in the eyes and say congratulations. So we call it the Steven Tyler congratulations. congratulations man all that you've done all that you are the like it's it's awesome and again going back to where we started with the conventions seeing the way you handle our community

it makes all of us so proud. So thank you. Thank you so much. Seriously. Thank you. Like the, never thought I'd ever get the chance to, to. Back in the serial mom days, dude, I actually thank you for all that, for everything you've done on both sides of the screen. When Adam said that this was going to happen, I swooned a little bit. And not just because of Shaggy.

Let's be honest. And not just because of Stu. That was very sweet. Thank you. Thank you. That was lovely. Are you on social media? I am. Yeah, Matthew Lillard. All right, so just your name. And where can people follow you? I'm at the Joe Lynch. And I'm at Adam underscore FN underscore green. And we will see all of you. Happy 600th episode. Oh, yeah. Congratulations. How is it? Are we not allowed to say that? No. Hey, congratulations.

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. How do you, how do you, each one of you, um, give me two, give me the best part of it and the hardest part of it. Give me both of you. So let's start with the hardest part. The hardest part is doing it. Yeah. Continuing to do it even when we're in production. Yeah, it was going to be 10 weeks when season two of our TV show was airing. It was just going to be like a complimentary thing to that. And that was it. Because this was 2013 when we started.

And it's like everyone is going to have a podcast. They're like Facebook pages. Who needs this? But then the conversations we were having with people. we're so good and real. And it was like, I guess we'll keep going. And we've never missed a Monday since we started, even when it's Christmas day, even when we're shooting, like make sure we bank enough episodes. So, but it's really hard. to do that. And then.

all the Patreon stuff, two live shows a month. It's a lot. It's a ton of work. It's hard sometimes when you have peers who are making movies, too, and they introduce you as, oh, here are these guys. They're podcasters. Oh, by the way, they're also filmmakers. We're like, fuck you, my movie came out last week. It's like, oh, that hurts. But we were originally on a network called Geek Nation.

And we were just killing it in the top 20 on iTunes every week. And then all of a sudden they kind of... just disappeared overnight and deleted their servers and everything our first like four years of stuff gone so still without missing a week we went independent then fangoria started a thing we went there but then there was this whole scandal with their parent

company so we had to start again um but we also and i'm proud of this because we don't we're not doing this for the money um but we've turned down money because This is the beauty of keeping this independent. We don't have to do anything that we don't want to do. We can talk to the people we want to talk to. We can say no if it's not somebody we want to talk to. But there was a very big sponsorship that we were offered that would have, especially in that moment, helped both of us greatly.

And we said no because a lot of our audience is very young and it was a vape company. And I'm like... I don't want to do that to you. And he was like, no, not for our audience. No, I believe I asked what flavors first. Yes. Oh, gross. Strawberry. What's the hardest part? It's that. Okay, but you can't say that, but keep going. Something else.

Not fanboying out, to be honest, you know, like like in moments like these because we're supposed to have a modicum of profession professionalism, if you will. I think it's, it's, it is the life balance, you know, it's because we do want to deliver, you know, and we want to keep it fresh and we want to make sure that people are engaged. Yeah. But I'm going to flip that on you and I'll say the best part because I used to think that like making movies was.

you know I've been growing up with this like you and like you like so many people listening right now we've grown up with this mystique of the movies and not just celebrity but Talent and creative people and the first time sitting there and giving Henry Rollins direction in my first movie, you know mind-blowing Having this opportunity and hear that it's not all sunshine and roses

That's both the hardest thing because it's having to accept that you're human and all of our heroes who have been on here are human. But at the same time, it's the best because we're all people. And the ability to have those conversations with... Well, you're here, so you're my example. But we've had so many of our heroes on this show.

And to be able to not only commiserate with them and hear like some of our heroes going, it's fucking hard, man. Like it sucks. It sucks out there. But at the same time. they keep going and we keep going. Yeah. And no people out there. No episode has always been, has been nothing but bad, right? It's no, no, no. It's like not everyone sits there and complains on one episode. You're like, this sucks. No, there's been a few. But here's the.

And here's how I got through it, and this is why you can make it. What's your positive? the community that we've built yeah now being out at conventions and seeing people from the live chats for all the live stuff we do each month meet for the first time and it's like they're the best of friends because they've known each other like online and stuff just

the friendships that people have made. There was a, when lockdown started during COVID, I was doing live streams every day, just giving, giving away everything I had ever done. Like I'm going to show every movie, I'm going to read this book and whatever. There were two people who met.

on in the chat during that who got married two years ago and like so those stories um just knowing you're making somebody's day a little bit better even if it just made them laugh while they were driving to work or they heard a story that they can relate to. Yeah. Do you always have people on every Monday that there's celebrities? Yeah.

that's tough yeah well i mean not celebrities it's like you know like we've always from the beginning it's it's been like you know above the line below the line kind of anybody who's been we've had managers we've had like costumers we've had makeup artists we've had like somebody in the industry It's never just the two of you hanging out.

No, our live stuff. We do live stuff. Yeah. We do a live show where like sometimes like this week we have a live show on Sunday and then on Thursday we do a thing called slumber party massacre where we watch a movie with people live and we just sit there and we talk about, you know, Texas chainsaw.

a massacre but there's these elaborate pre-shows yeah anyway we originally we were like we have to end this because it's killing us so episode 200 was going to be the end john landis was the guest and at the end he's like why would you stop doing this you can't stop doing this and it was like

I guess we're still going to go. And here we are at 600 and we're still doing this. Thanks, John. It was all worth it. So again, congrats on everything. Everybody go and get yourself some booze. Uh, what is the website? One more time. Yeah. Macabre spirits. M-A-C-B-R-E. M-A-C-A-B-R-E. It's on your shirt. I will tell you, I started working this morning. It's been a crazy couple days. Yes. The funny thing is like, you know.

We've had so many opportunities because I think the horror is so relevant. I think the people love the horror. It's the season. Considering right now that the top two movies in the country and Smile 2. The Terrifier story is crazy. It's amazing. Yeah. And Smile 2. obviously doing great.

People love it. All friends of ours. We love it. Yes. Anyways, but sorry, I know how to spell Macabre. Macabre Spirits dot com or find me on social. But I really, it's so funny, it's really dreading coming in. First of all, the place This looks terrifying. From the outside. I was like, oh shit, where am I? I'm going to be stabbed dead. I walked out with a little dog. I'm like, hey, in here.

But it's been so, so, so lovely. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. I think it's fine. We've now ended this podcast 12 times. I know. First pitches up in the World Series again by the time you guys hear this. We'll see you next week with another edition of The Movie Crypt with... Adam and Joe. Thank you. This is my favorite podcast I've ever done. It's the Movie Crypt! This episode brought to you by Ken Mock!