Running for Water (Because Shutoffs Are Immoral)

[upbeat music] It's Quinn. Maybe you're like me, and sometimes you just spiral out, not just because everything is a lot all of the time, but because some part of you actually wants to do something about it. But, I mean, holy shit, where to start, right? Great news. We built an app for that. It's called What Can I Do? Even better news, it's free and it's fast. It takes just three clicks to start unfucking the world. Visit whatcanido.earth to get started for free.

[upbeat music] Chronically parched is not something anyone in this country or anywhere should ever have to feel, but here we are. So how are towns and states making clean water more affordable, reliable, and less controversial? 'Cause remember, it's fucking water. Look, you might feel like you're giving it all you got, but when you look around, things are a little dark out there.

So you, our listeners and readers and viewers and users, whatever, across the world, want and demand more examples of fight and progress you can see, touch, feel, taste. And in these conversations, in this special series, in our partnership with our best friends at Run for Something, we're gonna do that. We're giving you exactly what you asked for.

Each of these episodes features two guests, both sourced from the Run for Something pipeline and graduating classes, so the next real generation of US leaders all across the country. First, I'll introduce one young elected official at the state or local level who has actually made real measurable progress on an issue facing more Americans than ever before, but something that you'll notice.

And then in the same episode, after that, I'll introduce a bright-eyed candidate who's currently running for state legislature, for mayor, for city council, or for school board, who is similarly hell-bent on attacking the same issue in their own hometown or their state. And for all you know, one of these could be in yours or near yours or just have lessons that apply to yours.

So you and I are gonna find out together at the same time, live, what they're working on and why, where they've actually made measurable progress, where they've struggled, 'cause that matters, and how their exact tactics and strategies can be adopted and transferred to other schools and school districts, towns, cities, and states across the country.

I do have a request, though. If these conversations inspire you in any way, please do two things today, 'cause remember, these folks are only part of the thing. You gotta do your part. Number one, find out what office you or some actual young person you love and respect can run for at runforwhat.net. You would be surprised at how many amazing offices go uncontested in this country.

Number two, please find and support incredible candidates endorsed by Run for Something and other amazing organizations we love at whatcanido.earth. And last, there is a third thing. Please share these. Sure, you can give us a five-star review if you'd like, but also share these with somebody who might be into, for example, water. Because if you need this, and I need this, many more people need these conversations.

So first off today, a little context for our topic, drinking water. You think it wouldn't be complicated or controversial, but remember, folks, bad guys are real. So there is a lot of progress being made, even in the age of climate change and floods and all that. And the folks I've got on the show today are doing it in their districts, or they're running to, and they also have lessons for yours. Both of our folks today are from Michigan, no stranger to water issues.

Introducing our incumbent. State Rep. Laurie Pohutsky is a Michigan-born millennial microbiologist serving her fourth term in the Michigan House of Representatives, where she serves on the Oversight Committee and is the chair of the Progressive Women's Coalition. Laurie's mom was a nurse, and her dad was a teamster, and that's basically all I need to know, but I'll give you some more detail. Laurie sponsored legislation that became Michigan's Clean Energy and Jobs Act of 2023.

She is the co-sponsor of legislation to make polluters pay, which is always great, and to amend Michigan's Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act, which focuses on environmental cleanup standards and procedures, which would be stellar since, as you know, the EPA has, you know, basically been abolished. Anyways, more good news. Let's talk to our candidate. Denzel McCampbell is a fine young community advocate and native Detroiter living and running for Detroit City Council District 7.

Denzel was born and raised in the East Side and is a graduate of Michigan State University. He is dedicated to public service, to fighting day in and day out to increase access to democracy and representation for marginalized groups.

He believes the Detroit city government, of which he would like to be part again, should be a responsive government that uses its resources to ensure that every neighborhood is well-resourced and that every resident is able to have the fundamentals, adequate and truly affordable housing, public transportation, and access to water and opportunities and things like that to improve their lives and have their basic needs met.

Denzel has deep knowledge and experience in organizing and advocating and working on all levels of government to affect change for his community. So there we go. Two amazing humans fighting for water and fighting for everything else. Let's find out what it means for their hometowns, for Michigan, and for yours. [upbeat music]Lori Podvesky, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us today on, like, our seventh version of audiovisual equipment. It's working.

We got it Lori, correct me if I'm wrong, you are in your fourth term of Michigan House of Representatives? That's exciting. That's very exciting. Nothing has happened in those four terms. It's been totally boring out there. Could you tell us a little bit about your district? Yeah, absolutely. So currently, my district is a portion of Northwest Detroit, North Redford Township, which is a suburb.

Even just a little further outside, I have Northeast Livonia. So the district itself stretches from a pretty urban area to a more suburban area. When I first ran and first got acquainted with Run for Something, I was running in a extremely gerrymandered district. It was just the city of Livonia, minus one square mile. Sure. Why not?

And it had been Republican-held for quite some time. That seat, I ended up flipping it with a whole lot of help. We only flipped it by two hundred and twenty-seven votes. So, you know, when folks talk about, you know, "Oh, I feel like I'm not making an impact," I wouldn't be here talking to you if people didn't make an impact.

Because when you look at those numbers, like, every single piece of outreach that someone did in their spare time made that possible. Yeah, a hundred percent. We were just handing out... We've a few gated communities here that are very obnoxious about door knocking and things like that, and a gentleman running for school board who's working with Run for Something, good guy, and this one community just won't let him in.

And so we found some good neighbor friends that are in there and just gave them a bunch of stuff and said, "Just incognito, middle of the night, go drop these on doorsteps." Because like you said, two hundred and twenty-seven votes, everyone counts. I mean, Virginia, what was that? I was still in Los Angeles, I think.

I feel like s- it was, like, six, seven years ago, they, like, took-- pulled a name out of a hat or some shit because [chuckles] it was, like, one, one vote. Yes. Everything is working exactly as it's supposed to, Lori. [laughs] All right, so like I mentioned to you, the other voice our listeners will hear from today is Denzel McCampbell, who's running for Detroit City Council. Fabulous gentleman. Tell me, you are a...

I believe [chuckles] there was a description online as the, the millennial m- microbiologist. Is that right? That's a great handle. Why did you run for office? I got pissed off. There's a bit of a more articulate backstory there, but I was really just pissed off coming out of the twenty sixteen election cycle. I am a queer woman who believes I should have bodily autonomy, and I'm a scientist, and all of those things were kind of coming under attack.

I, like a lot of people, I think, started paying more attention to more local levels of politics and government, namely the state legislature. And I saw that there were a lot of policies coming out of Lansing that had a basis in science, be that environmental, healthcare-related, but no one really there to advocate for those scientific perspectives because there were no scientists.

Mm-hmm. So I l- with all of the hubris I could muster, was like, "Well, I'm just gonna run, and, you know, we'll see what happens." And I really didn't think that I was going to win, in all honesty. Mm-hmm. I thought I might move the needle a little bit. But I did win, and I got on some really cool, important committees from my perspective in my first term. And also, COVID ended up hitting in my first term. Mm-hmm.

So I think that perspective ended up being a little bit more useful than I, I originally planned on. I've got a lot of questions, but mostly it really speaks to representation, doesn't it? You know, it's like there were no scientists. Great. It's just like how we don't have any teachers. I think we've got, like, one nurse in the US Hou- House of Representatives. Yeah, it matters.

So thank you for doing that. It's very helpful. So talk to me about how you got hooked up with our good friends at Run for Something, and then we're gonna get into water here. I was looking for all of the help I could get.

I had no experience running for any type of office, so I was applying for all of the trainings I could, all of the, you know, orgs that were willing to help young progressive candidates, uh, could get their foot in the door and get some education going and get some resources, and I was also in a really competitive primary. My opponent was also endorsed by Run for Something, and he and I get along fantastically, so there's no bad blood there or anything.

But what I really appreciated was, you know, it was a really competitive primary, so a lot of people that got involved were like, "Oh, y- it's one or the other. It cannot be both." Mm-hmm. And that's not what Run for Something did. They were like, "Look, we want representation that both of you can bring." Sure. "So let's try and do everything we can to support both of you in whatever you need, because you probably have different needs right now." Yeah.

And they were very interested in my story and why I wanted to run and represent people and the perspective I could bring, and it was just... It was immensely helpful. There were so many questions that I, you know, felt dumb asking, but got immediate help with, and obviously, you know, fundraising support, connections with better ways to recruit, like, people power too, which was so, so helpful.

It's interesting because, like you said, I love the idea that they and you and your opponent were good sports about the whole thing, because it's like we gotta do all the things. Yeah. So w- like, why are we picking and choosing now? Which I understand. That's obviously [chuckles] what a primary is for. We don't shy away from how the political sausage is made here. But it's gotta be something, you know? Right.

We've gotta do what we can to keep pushing and keep pushing, and that's what I think A- Amanda Lemmon and I are on the same page most of the time, which is, like, rage texting about our idealism, but at the same time, like, we'll take every step we can get along the way. Yeah. And that includes just getting more and more folks like yourself in there, so that's really great.

So you came back to this idea of there's a lot of science-based stuff coming out of the state legislature, which, you know, as I'm sure you're aware, like you said, you became more aware of that there is a state legislature and how they operate, and a lot of folks in the past 10 years have had that same awakening for a variety of reasons.

You know, all the trigger laws that kicked in the minute Roe v. Wade was turned down, and people realized some of these laws have been under the books for a hundred years, and they go, "Who made those?" And you go, "Well, congrats. It's your state legislatures." And-If you're a person who's been yelling at people to get involved on the state and local level for a long time, you don't wanna say, "I told you so," but you're also like, "Welcome. Let's do this." Yes.

And now obviously more than ever, that is instrumental 'cause it's kind of all we've got in a lot of ways. So really helpful that you started before that. But you said there's a lot of science-based stuff coming out, and it's interesting. We kinda same time early COVID like came up with this fun little tagline called Science for People Who Give a Shit. And there's two things there.

One, for better or worse, and I feel like I say this a lot, because of COVID, and climate, and all these different things, and poverty, and our housing crisis, there's a lot more people that give a shit, fortunately and unfortunately, than ever before, so we try to reach them. But at the same time, science is everything at this point, right? I mean, it, it's in everything, you know, and everyone became an amateur scientist in the past five years, again, for better or worse.

But we're understanding that there's like fundamental pieces and building blocks of all these policies we choose or don't choose that can affect in a systemic way the science of our biology and our sociology and our public health and our climate and ecosystems and our water obviously. So I don't think I have to explain to people why we decided to talk to two folks from Michigan about water. Obviously, on the international scene, you came right into that.

It's been like 10 years, I think, since the Flint stuff became news at least to the rest of the world. When you talk to folks around the state, and you talked a little bit about your disc group before, I know you're working on the pipes, you know, all these different pieces. There's the bottled water fiasco. It's been going on forever. How do people feel about it now? Do they feel like there's been progress made?

Is there something that they can touch and feel that at least, again, this is a big complicated issue, that Michigan's going in the right direction? [upbeat music] Hey, it's Quinn. So as you might be aware, this whole thing started as a simple, "Hey, here's what you missed" newsletter. And today, we've turned that one little newsletter into this burgeoning media and tech empire, right?

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We depend on it every minute of every day. So thanks for supporting our partners. [upbeat music] I think in some ways, yes, in some ways, no. There are so many reasons that what happened happened, racism, you know, systemic issues. But even if we just look to look at water infrastructure and isolate that piece, we have done tremendous amount in Michigan in going in and replacing our water infrastructure before it becomes a problem. Mm-hmm.

And I think a lot of people see that when we're literally tearing up in front of their yards. It's an ever-present fear for people now, I think. Sure. But it's also a little hard to consistently get people to know about, and recognize, and be invested in 'cause it's sort of one of those out of sight, out of mind things. Sure.

People don't necessarily look at that as critical infrastructure in a way they probably should. I think that there are also other issues related to water that we've made some headway on, but frankly not nearly as much as we should. And I think those are also the issues that tend to get more coverage than something sort of like mundane and kind of deeply unseen as water infrastructure. Mm-hmm.

When you look at things like PFAS and microplastics, there's a ton of work that we need to be doing there. And there is headway, but not nearly as much as there could be, and frankly as I think most people would want and expect. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, again, I really love infrastructure, and I've had a couple guests on talking about it. I'll send you a couple books that are great, and one is like a kid's graphic novel, and it's great.

It's like, look at what's around you, even if you can't see it, right? Even if you never go to the part of town where the treatment plants are, right? Whatever it might be. It's every...

It's the idea of like when you hit that switch on your light, whatever it is, it really helps to spend a day considering how that works, not just so you understand it, but for the gratitude of how many different people, and how many different pieces, and how many different systems interact to, to make it so your light turns on, to make sure that water comes out of your faucet, and to understand who the bastards are making the decisions when they cut it off, right?

Yeah. Or to not replace the pipe. Someone is deciding to keep you sick, basically. What lessons in all the billions you guys are spending to, to, like you said, rip up these pipes and put in new ones, which again is really touch and feelThis is big work, and you are not unique in America to the respect that you have to replace aging infrastructure. What lessons, I guess, have been learned? 'Cause you're four terms in.

Are there things you would change about these bills, or updates or amendments going forward as this work continues that might be transferable to other places? The longer you wait to address something, the more expensive and harder it gets to do. You know, Flint was the light bulb moment- Yeah... for everyone. But this is a crisis that could happen to some degree in any community here in Michigan. Mm-hmm. Because we all have aging pipes.

And, you know, there are funds available, there just were through, you know, the federal government and state assistance, but a community has to be below a certain threshold and meet a certain level of need in order to access and draw down those funds to replace their infrastructure in that way. And a lot of communities don't, but one, they desperately still need to replace that infrastructure, and two, they don't actually have the funds available to do it- Mm... so low.

So we need to just get better holistically, particularly when it comes to infrastructure, in looking prospectively and trying to address problems as we can, rather than waiting until it's literally a crisis and we have action levels popping up all across the state. That revenue has to come from somewhere eventually. Mm. And politicians hate raising revenue. This is what happens when you don't. You know, we have virtually... I should say we have no plan.

There are a lot of communities without resources that desperately need assistance in replacing this infrastructure, and that's something that we could have been looking at a long time ago, but certainly since Flint. Totally.

Well, if we're talking about, and again, like you said, this is endemic everywhere, part of it's federalism to bring the national government into it for a minute because for huge infrastructure projects, traditionally, a lot of that money will come from there in some ways, even it takes forever to be distributed, and every state and then locality treats it differently, the whole thing, right?

We saw- we've seen that with every bill. But again, if we're looking at assume we're not getting any money from the feds, [laughs] have you seen success? Are there learned lessons from local and state governments actually starting to work together on some of these things to find a common way? 'Cause like you said, local governments can't afford to do this shit. Like, uh, whether we're talking roads or pipes or whatever. Y- yeah.

You know, I mean, I think that, like you said, part of it is a structural issue just because of the way that we have s- historically funded and relied on the federal government for that.

But I will say that, you know, trying to connect our local governments to the statewide departments that are doing this work, we have made it a priority in previous budget cycles to set aside funds to try and help communities that are not going to qualify for federal funds to make sure that they're not left hanging because they simply can't do it without some- Yeah...

assistance, right? Yeah. So yes, there absolutely have been lessons, but we've had to act faster now than we would have if we had just been approaching it this way since, you know, probably before I got there. [laughs] But that's a tale as old as time for everywhere. You know, Michigan isn't...

Well, m- most people who don't understand geography, it's not on the East or West Coast, so you wouldn't think, oh, storms, but like, you guys are dealing with real increased rains and flooding and erosion in a real way 'cause you're on these enormous b- bodies of water, obviously. Mm-hmm. I- in a lot of ways. But again, that's endemic throughout the country, like whatever- Yeah... you're talking about. And like you said, we didn't start early enough. Now we have to do it.

It's gonna cost more, but that doesn't mean we can't do it. Like- Exactly... you do have to do it or it starts to be truly crippled in a lot of ways. One of my best friends works in a research hospital in southwest Virginia, and when he got there, he's a real problem solver, and he's gonna murder me for s- oversimplifying this, but they were basically like, "Make people stop coming to the emergency room so much."

And that is such a complicated problem, but it's also very simple in a lot of ways. Absolutely. 'Cause so many people come in with heart pain and chest pain, and the doctors say, "Steve, we've seen you three times this year. You have to take your heart medication. This is gonna cost you so much money, especially if you took an ambulance, clogs up the emergency room, right?

And we can't show up every day and make you do this, but if you do this, it will be less costly, both fiscally and to your health span," right? To everyone involved. And it's the same thing for everything. You know, that maintenance goes a long way. And obviously sometimes you gotta replace the pipes, but that's where we are, and we do have to do that work.

And a- as much as Michigan has been, you know, unfortunately in the spotlight, nowhere else is safer from this. New York City's pipes are 1,000 years old. So who are your allies when it comes to water in the state legislature, but also advocacy groups and other groups that are, again, advocating or outside groups that are helping to write policy either on the national or the state level for y'all?

Like, where can you- Yeah... turn to for that? There's sort of like a contingency of the environmental legislators, you know, that have kinda just sort of owned these issues. And, you know, we have term limits here in Michigan, so they've come and gone. But in terms of advocacy organizations, we work a lot with the Sierra Club, the Natural Resources Defense Council, but there's also a lot more, like, hyper-localized groups. Mm-hmm. So, like, MOSES in Detroit- Mm-hmm...

deals a lot with affordability. Mm-hmm. I have learned so much from them in terms of how this has just really been designed to disenfranchise, i- in my case, Detroiters, but, you know, there are communities all across the state and country like this. Detroit Action and People's Action, Michigan United has been fantastic.

The League of Conservation Voters, they are getting into historically, obviously, always, you know, conservation and environmentally focused, but also they've gotten into affordability areas. They've gotten into, like, pro-democracy areas. Mm-hmm.

So, like, really kind of highlighting for people how all of these things are linked.But no, it's just, it's been really fantastic to sort of have a coalition of people statewide and more at a local level to raise awareness and bring other people into the issue too. 'Cause, you know- Sure... you mentioned this earlier, like times are hard. Everyone is just kind of overwhelmed all of the time, so you cannot possibly, you know, keep an eye on every crucial issue.

So sometimes having people raise awareness in communities and sort of be trusted mesh- messengers for people is really helpful too in getting people to understand why it's important. Well, I love that because we ran a poll once. It was something along the lines of, "Have you ever considered running for local office?" And we got some incredible responses, but a lot of were like, "No, I'm terrified.

Didn't know there's a local office. No one will like me. No, it seems too hard. I've never been to a city council," all these different things. And you're like, "You can go to a city council meeting. I mean, you only need to make people like you for a little while." You know, all these different things. Yeah. But I understand the fear of it and the fear of, "I can campaign." You know?

Uh, I think it was Barack Obama who was just... You know, campaigning's much easier than actually governing, which is true. But at the same time, there's always people who are already there doing the work that can help you along the way, like those allies, like you said, like those folks in the legislature that have come and gone.

You're not gonna have to show up and do the whole thing. Yes. There's always folks, and especially, again, someplace like Michigan where folks have been on the ground doing it 'cause they have to. Mm-hmm. You know? And those are the best folks to learn from for sure. Like what's actually- Absolutely... gonna work in this bill. What is just a waste, you know? How do we get Nestle out of here?

Well, and to give the history of some of that, again, we have term limits, so institutional knowledge is so, so valuable in this state. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not gonna come in most cases from sitting legislators because we've only been there for y- you know, a hot minute really when it comes down to it. Mm-hmm. So having organizers and stakeholder groups that do have that institutional knowledge because they have been there fighting this battle consistently is so, so critical.

So what does the future look like for how Michigan... Again, like so many places, you are bailing out the boat, but also trying to plug the hole in a lot of ways, knowing more rains are coming, knowing more erosion's coming, things like that. You're fixing the pipes, which at one point, like, wasn't in the conversation, and now it is. It's along the way. Can you look ahead at all to go, what are we gonna need to do next?

What's the next thing that's sort of the intersection of achievable, but also something that'll make measurable progress that people can touch and feel? Yeah. You know, I mean, I touched on PFAS and microplastics, and I'm on the microplastics package. I think that those are real threats, and they are very serious concerns for people, so I'm not trying to disregard those.

But also, the landscape has fundamentally changed since I started in the legislature in 2019. People are trying to survive on a day-to-day basis now. So when you ask me what is the next big issue for me and what is something that I also think is achievable, it's water affordability. Mm-hmm. Just plain and simple.

We had a package that was so well vetted, and there was virtually no opposition, and it would be a whole separate podcast episode to talk about how we got to a point where it all fell apart in the end. But suffice just- Interested. Continue. Great. [laughs] Always available, and I will make sure that my tech works. But suffice to say, I know that, you know, folks are gonna hear from Denzel on this one too.

Denzel's opponent killed that. The margin we had was one person, and she stopped showing up. And that is a program that would have been transformational for people under the best of circumstances, much less now- Mm-hmm... when the cost of everything is going up. People are losing their food assistance. You know, healthcare is being held hostage, and premiums are going to go up on, you know, ACA coverage and everything.

That package would have been a game changer for people in this state, and it is still so incredibly possible if we can just get, you know, the actual politics of stuff out of the way. It had bipartisan support. I believe it still does. It's been reintroduced. That is one of my top priorities because it is a good bill package.

Senator Stephanie Chang is leading the way on that, and she just did an immense amount of work to get everybody that could have a stake in it, with the exception of one, you know, random commissioner somewhere, to be on board with it and still make sure that it did what it needed to do. And it was- Yeah... important last term, but it is 1,000 times more important right now. So that is one of my top priorities to try and get done. Thank you for sticking with your guns on that.

The good and the bad news about the fact that we're fighting for the basics all over again is that it's so easy and often, like, cathartic to really draw a line in the sand with people about. Not that this wasn't incredibly important and aspirational and awesome, but when people like, "Oh, in the IRA, uh, yes, we got a green bank, and how much money should it... And how..." That's all awesome.

I will argue about that all day. It's really exciting. We're all coming from the same place that it should exist. Now we're like, "Do you believe that people's water should be shut off?" Exactly. If the answer is yes, you're a bad guy. [laughs] Like- Exactly... I have no problem... In fact, I'm excited to call you out and be like, "Oh, you think people's water should be shut off. Let's talk about that.

How do you think people live? What do you think [laughs] people need to live?" Right. It's that and, like, dirty air, and one of the other conversations we've had is school lunches. It's just stuff that makes me, again, like, kind of in a cathartic way, go haywire. Uh- We had a three-hour-long hearing on that bill package because there were so many people who had their water shut off who wanted to come testify.

And like, I have had my water shut off. That is a mortifying thing to disclose to a room full of people who probably cannot relate to it. So it was a three-hour-long hearing because if that many people want to come and, like, share in that way to explain why this is important, then we're doing it. And one of the Republicans... It was my committee at the time.

But one of my Republican colleagues on that committee at one pointAsked them if they had Netflix accounts and if they had considered shutting off their Netflix in order to afford their water. And it was not my, like, most professional moment, but I wouldn't change a single thing about it because I don't know what he thinks you do. Do you think that people who cannot wash their hands or go get a glass of water or flush their toilet are spending a whole lot of time enjoying Netflix in their house?

There's a moment in the very first Avengers movie where someone... I don't remember how they get to that point, but basically the Hulk says, "My secret is I'm always angry." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's right." [laughs] Yes. And that's okay. I'm gonna ride that as long as necessary. I will burn out into the sun on that because I would've... However you handled that, I would've handled it much more poorly.

And what are you gonna do? It's just incredible. It's incredible. We can talk about bad guys all day. But yeah, what's next is, like, we're still fighting for the basic stuff. In fact, we're going backwards on a lot of this stuff, whatever it is. You know, when they're, again, wastewater sur- surveillance, using it for evil to try to find birth control in the water, and you're just like, "Okay, that's where we are. Got it. Mask are off. Not microplastics, though.

Perfect." We're keeping it positive here. You guys are doing a lot of tremendous work. It has been, like, 10 years, which is crazy. I feel like I'm 1,000. But you are doing the work, and that's not a not complicated thing. You are replacing the pipes while people try to kidnap your governor, you know, while you are dealing with bad guys who are mad about Netflix.

And us, actually. Yeah. Fun fact, the people who tried to kidnap her came to the Capitol looking for her, couldn't find her, and decided they were going to start assassinating us and live streaming it to lure her out. Awesome. Great. So that's just a fun bit of bar trivia to keep in your back pocket. But you're the monster that wants people to have water to drink. Perfect. Hang your hat on it.

Well, that is what good representation's all about, and I'm sorry you went through that. It's... Yeah, all we can do is keep fighting, I guess. Laurie, what's a book you'd recommend during this? [laughs] We get the Constitution, we get coloring books, we get fantasy, we get amazing nonfiction. It is truly your choice. Lawless by Professor Leah Litman, who is, full disclosure, a friend of mine. Beautiful.

But she is a law professor. She is just an incredible litigator. She's argued in front of the Supreme Court. She helped with the fight for reproductive rights here in Michigan, for LGBTQ rights here in Michigan. But she really just outlines how what we're seeing with the Supreme Court now is not a new phenomenon. This has been in the works for a really long time. There are absolutely moments where it's a bummer. Mm-hmm.

But there's also, like, a tangible call to action, and here's what you can do to fix it, and it's just... It's absolutely essential reading for anybody living in America right now. [laughs] Perfect. Great. Awesome. We will add it to the list. We've got a bunch up on the bookshop, which the people love. Is there a, last one, a playlist you can't get enough of right now?

That's a new one, and I was like, "Why haven't I been asking this? This is where people go." There's a new Florence + The Machine album that came out today- I know... that is called Everybody Scream, which I feel like is just chef's kiss right now. [laughs] Perfect. I saw her once at the Hollywood Bowl or The Greek, I think, and it was just like...

It w- I mean, it was 1,000 years ago, but it's just, I mean, incredible. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I'm very jealous right now. No, she's fantastic. That's awesome. We'll find the new Florence + The Machine album. I will be blasting that on the streets of Colonial Williamsburg later. Perfect. Well, listen, y- the hardships you went through to appear today are numerous and on no notice, so I really appreciate it.

Thank you for everything you're doing. Oh, we're, we're trying, man. You know, when people like... I can't look and see and touch and feel and taste and drink some progress. I do know it's out there 'cause I'm so exposed to all this through all of this, but I understand it, and if we can do some way to facilitate that so people can go, "Oh, well, my town, we could do that," or, "What are the examples of this in my town?"

Or, "What's transferable to my town?" Least we can do. I really appreciate your time today. That's it. Thank you. Thank you. Really appreciate it. [upbeat music] I got Denzel McCampbell on the phone. Denzel, tell us a little bit about where you're running and what office you're running for. Absolutely. Uh, thanks for having me on, Quinn, and good to be here with you. Again, my name is Denzel McCampbell.

I'm a candidate for Detroit City Council here in District 7, and born and raised in the city of Detroit, been on the city's East side. So for folks who aren't familiar, you know how some areas may be divided up by quadrants, and here in the city of Detroit, we're divided up by the East and West side. So now living in District 7 on the West Side for the past 11 years.

I'm a community organizer, someone who's been involved in working on the ground together with community around issues such as voting rights, environmental justice, equitable development, making sure that corporations, when they get money and tax subsidies to build things here in the city of Detroit, that they're actually giving back to community and it's not just a blank slate.

I've worked on our city's charter, which is our governing documents, to push for a Detroit Bill of Rights that actually center folks' needs, and I'm just running for city council to make sure that we are paying attention and delivering for our neighborhoods here in District 7. We have a lot of children and a lot of seniors and marginalized groups that we really have to put at the forefront and deliver for. So again, it's good to be here with you.

Man, thank you for being here, for running, for fighting for your hometown. Most important question of the day is gonna be, your website said you have a dog. W- w- would... Tell me about your dog. Yes. [laughs] Absolutely. So I have a 11-year-old Yorkie named Minnie, and she actually runs this household. Mm-hmm. And the story behind Minnie is that back in 2014, I wanted a dog, and my mom then took Minnie from me [laughs] 'cause she wanted a dog, and that became her best friend.

But, you know, unfortunately, my mom passed away in 2020, so-Folks are like, "Oh, what are you gonna do with Minnie?" I said, "Well, of course I'm gonna take Minnie." So she's been my sidekick ever since. She is a trip for sure. That's awesome, man. The dog definitely r- runs the house for sure. I've had my line of them and they do. I got my wife who I answer to, and my kids who don't answer to either of us- Right...

and then my dog, who kinda does what she wants. If there's bread on the counter, she's like, "I've been fed. I'm good. I've got it." [laughs] No, don't work for me. I'm good. I'm covered. No, you don't need to feed me the dry kibble shit. She's like, "I ate the Cinnamon Rolls." That's amazing. Well, I wanna talk about how Minnie has been endorsed by Run for Something twice in 2021 and now.

Tell me a little bit h- how you got hooked up with those folks at first. I came across Run for Something when I ran for Detroit City Clerk, and this is a role that is in charge of our elections, election administration.

Again, I got my start in organizing around expanding access to the ballot box, so that was something that continues to be dear to my heart and came across Run for Something and really loved their mission around lifting up folks who are first time looking to run, and they have Run for Something and whether it's at the city council level, the municipal level, you know, state rep, what have you, and really breaking down these barriers to running for office, right?

Because so often folks may feel like, "Oh, you know, I have to be, uh, involved in this," or, "I have to have this amount of money," or, "I have these connections." I got connected with Run for Something to really break down and get rid of those barriers and they were very helpful in 2021, and I'm fortunate to now be endorsed again by Run for Something here in 2025 and they continue to be helpful.

And not just for me, but folks across the state of Michigan, across the country, and really saying, you know, "We need more folks. We need new voices. We need fresh leadership in these roles to really change the outcome for folks and deliver on people's needs." So I really appreciate them. I love that. So I'm sure you don't have to explain to your constituents what the city council is and, you know, what your powers and your duties and responsibilities might be.

But take me back to, because there's such a focus from us in Run for Something and a lot of other groups about we have to fight for every office from like school board- Yeah... on up, sheriff, like you said, city clerk, this and this. How often when you started to run for city clerk did you have to talk to people and they'd be like, "What is city clerk?"

Like maybe you've heard of it, but what do you do? Because that is such a problem in local elections and they're kinda different in every town sometimes- Mm-hmm... in every city. Tell me about that 'cause it sounds, by the way you explained it, that you've had to do that many times before. I had to do it a lot, right- Yeah... when I was running. And that's a great question. I think it, it also lends to the civic education, right? Mm-hmm. That we have to have with every level, right?

And so it came across a lot and like I said, with the city clerk, it's one of those roles that you don't know about until you really hear about, right? Going to vote, I will see, you know, the folks who are working the polls, polling locations, but you probably are not gonna see the city clerk, but you will see their impact in what they're running.

The city clerk is also our record keeper and the holder of our seal, so as folks are interacting with city council, they c- actually keep the agendas and things. And that's the same in the city council as well. I would say that we have had to talk to folks about the power. That's why I also bring up my role in the Charter Revision Commission because a lot of folks don't know, but also I would say a lot of folks that get into these roles don't know the extent- Mm-hmm...

of their power as well. Sure. Or the need to be able to break down that at the doors on the phones. When I ran for city clerk, and I'm continuing to push for what I call a civic education corps- Mm-hmm...

that actually has mostly young people, but folks of all ages in the community partner with block clubs and neighborhood associations, that we're going door to door, meeting people where they are to talk about the issues that are impacting them and how it connects to each level of government and each office, right? Here in Detroit, we have a strong mayor system, so our mayor runs our departments.

The mayor has a cabinet, and those are the folks that you will mostly call if you have a issue with like trash pickup, if you have a issue with taxes and such. But our city council is the legislative branch, and we have i- investigatory powers. We approve the budget, but we also, we have that oversight as well, what the mayor does. So I've had to explain a lot.

When I ran for clerk, I had to explain a lot about that- Yeah... but also in the city council race, folks are familiar with city council, but it's also a conversation about here's what we can and what more we will, yeah. [upbeat music] Imagine this. You get some goddamn notification about something you give a shit about, and you just wanna stop what you're doing, whatever you're doing, and actually do something about it.

You can't just live out here on the receiving end of these things. So you head to whatcanido.earth, and boom, right in front of you is our new intelligent starter action section. Front and center, exactly the action you want and need to take right now. Head to whatcanido.earth right now to check it out, because the world won't unfuck itself. [upbeat music] Sure. Yeah. No, absolutely, man, and you know, it's different everywhere.

I am, I say it all the time on the show, I'm downtown Colonial Williamsburg right now, which is where I was born and raised, left for a thousand years, come back. But we've got the proper city of Colonial Williamsburg, which, uh, just Williamsburg itself has not... The boundaries haven't grown in 400 years, and a whole county has grown up around it.

Little like when I was in Los Angeles, there's Hollywood and then there's West Hollywood, which is much bigger- Right... and surrounds the whole thing, and then there, there's all the rest of it. So we've got a city council and a mayor who's elected from the city council, so the mayor's not quite as powerful as in Detroit. Right.

But we've also got a board of supervisors from the county and, like, how those work with each other in the school system, which is a hybrid school s- Like, it's complicated, so I understand why people are like, "I don't really know how this works." Yeah. And you hear about people arguing over budgets, and you're likeOkay it's complicated, and man, I'm so with you and invested on the civics education front.

And there's some fundamentals that are transferable, which I'm really interested in for everything we do- Mm-hmm... from education to policy, but again, then there's those little intricacies, man, that really matter, and roles like clerk where you're like this is what makes the machine work. Yeah. Keeping the records and keeping the seal, especially these days, right? You are the single source of the truth for a lot of this stuff.

And I appreciate you having this conversation a- and asking those questions because also, you know, as we see how the media landscape is changing, right, especially as local newsrooms are getting smaller, we're in the city of Detroit, you know, maybe 10, and we have some phenomenal folks on the ground that are still covering local aspects, but a lot of that has had to come from, you know, nonprofits and- Mm-hmm...

really stand, like, in that space. But as we're thinking about accurate minutes for city council, being able to see how your city council member has voted on this issue or this contract or this budget, that brings into how more important, like, someone like a clerk would be, so absolutely. So I wanna talk a little bit today about water. It is one of my, you know, pet peeve doesn't do it justice. It's like clean air, again, being in LA or whatever.

It should be pretty fundamental and not something that is up for disagreement, but it's complicated. It's obviously clean, accessible, affordable water i- is actually a million different things.

So you mentioned 2014 and many entering life, that's when Detroit's water issues were sort of front and center for the world for a minute. So- Yeah... you don't have to explain why, 'cause it... I think it inherently makes sense why that would be a platform of yours because between the water shutoffs and the crazy rain you guys had, infrastructure issues that a lot of cities face and things like that.

Tell me specifically though, because again, this is the feedback we've gotten, what are you specifically fighting to make, like, measurable progress on? Cool. And what does that look like for folks? You are so right how it touches so many aspects, right? I would tell you just a little bit about the background as you're talking about water shutoffs.

Like, there was one story of a family, an older couple that had to melt snow really to have water to flush a toilet, right? Like, in the richest country in the world, right? And we know that water is life, that folks need it to live.

And what came out of that was a push for, one, a water affordability plan of that says that no matter who you are, no matter how much money you make, you will have access to water, and we will actually allow you to pay what you can into the system so we can keep water flowing, and the pushback against the widespread shutoffs that folks were experiencing.

And for folks who may be watching or listening, that may seem like a no-brainer. There are places that have done this in Philadelphia and other places across the country that have this. A- and just on the basis, as we think about what government is, right, this collective of folks that have put in resources to deliver on the basic needs. That's how I view government, right?

To make sure that folks have their basic needs covered. You know, folks on the ground, advocates, organizers, have long pushed for a true water affordability plan that actually... And pushing back on disinformation, you know, opponents will say, "Oh, well, folks need to pay their fair share." Quinn, if you make $0 or if you are living in deep poverty and you don't have money to pay for water, what are we then telling folks? Mm-hmm. Right? That you don't deserve to live, basically. Correct.

Um, so- Yeah, when we really boil it down, like- Yes... the note behind the note is what you're saying is, "We're fine with the way this goes." Yes. And also ignoring the fact that when we actually s- go to folks and say, "Pay what you can," it actually gets more money into the system- Mm... because then folks are not looking at a high water bill to say, "I can't tackle that- Yeah... because I have food on the table," right? Yep. "I can't tackle that because now I have to pay

my utility bill that is also outrageous because we have a private monopoly here in Michigan that continues to increase rates." So really thinking about how all these issues connect.

So on the water aspect of getting folks water is really pushing on the local level for water affordability plan across the city, an income-based water affordability plan, something that also State Senator Stephanie Chang and advocates have pushed at, on the state level to have a statewide water affordability plan that I was involved with on the advocacy side to help push.

And just to bring a race into it, my opponent actually held up [laughs] it was at the very moment in a Democratic trifecta at the end of 2024 that we were very close to passing this legislation, and my opponent walked out and ended the session, so we could not get that legislation passed. So that's one tangible thing, that I'll push for at the local level to- Your current opponent? Yes. So that's one thing. Then you talk about the infrastructure side.

You know, it's so funny that we use 100-year floods, you know, to describe these big floods, and- Mm-hmm... in the city of Detroit, we probably have had five or six 100-year floods in the last decade. So they're... now they're historic two-year floods at this point. But 2021, in my neighborhood, I had two floods within one month of each other. This was after I moved into my home. You know, as you're moving in, you're trying to figure out where things are gonna go. I mentioned my mom passed away.

A lot of the sentimental things were in my basement as I'm figuring out where to put things, and my basement flooded. And, you know, that happened to me, and it happened to many of my neighbors. Many of folks had... You know, people had finished basements that they have sitting areas.

And for the folks who may not know, some areas don't have basements, but here in Detroit, many folks use their basement as an additional room- Mm-hmm... additional living spaces, additional quarters, and just devastated folks across the board with floods.

So there has been some work to go on with infrastructure upgrades, but for me, as I'm looking at this, that we have to make sure that we're continuing to push for climate resilient infrastructure, infrastructure that-Delivers clean water to folks, that we're replacing and continue on a rapid pace to replace our lead lines here in the city of Detroit and delivering water.

And also to take bold climate action against what we know will increase these floods and the frequency of devastational weather, making sure that the city of Detroit is accelerating this pace to be a carbon neutral city, that we're investing in not only here in District 7 on the west side, but on the east side where there has been flooding on the canals because the city of Detroit sits on the Detroit River, that folks experience flooding all the time.

So really coming together with my colleagues to have a citywide plan to build climate resilient infrastructure, to deliver clean water, and to make sure that we are playing our part in not advancing the climate emergency that we're in.

I appreciate that so much, man, and your wide-ranging and at the same time deep understanding and perspective of both the intimate problems faced by yourself and people in District 7 and the west side and the east side in Detroit and everywhere, in that we have to do, and you guys have to do, and so many places have to do two things at once, right?

Mm-hmm. We have to, as they say, adapt and mitigate, and part of that adaptation is not being afraid to say out loud where we are in the known nones, as we say, which is that you're gonna flood every two years. That's table stakes now. Mm-hmm. You can call it whatever the hell you want, but we're gonna flood every two years, right? Right. Is it disingenuous to say 100-year flood still everywhere? Yes, of course.

We're gonna flood every two years. Great. That's a starter. We've been... I mean, I think w- you tried to start replacing the lead pipes in, like, 2018, right? Something like that. And so many places are facing that, but obviously huge issue in Michigan. That's enough. The work is ongoing, but going from lead pipes that get overwhelmed and then plants that get overwhelmed, and you got boil notices, right?

Which right up the street here in Richmond h- enormous problem in the past year with that. Mm-hmm. To climate resilient infrastructure.

Like, it's a leap, but you have to always come back to these people and say, "I have been affected by this. I want to make sure- Yes... that the pipes are not lead and that they're clean and they're not gonna hurt your children's learning capacity, and that you're gonna have plants that don't require a boil advisory," which, like, how do you boil when you can't pay your ut- utility bill, right?

Yes. How do you melt snow when you can't pay your utility? Like, we have to piece by piece get to these things, so I have such admiration for the specific ways you are fighting for this. 'Cause again, that's what when people say to us, "I can't touch and feel this change," that is what will do it, right? Absolutely. And, you know, I know you have folks watching and listening from all over, and I know ma- many municipalities are facing this, right?

And I get this question often, because what we see that's going on on a federal level in the cutting of funds in these programs that a lot of municipalities depend on, I tell folks that we cannot let up on the advocacy, the pushing of our folks on the federal level. Because it is going to take large investments, and it's unfortunate that in this last, not even a year, wow, not even a year that we've seen many of those advancements in funding either frozen or cut, right?

And for me, wa- hoping to sit on the Detroit City Council is that I want to make sure that my colleagues, the incoming mayoral administration, our state legislators, our congressional delegation, that we are locked in lockstep to say we have to do all that we can to bring these resources back down to the municipal level.

Because again, this is impacting folks day in and day out. It's water. And w- yeah, it's water, and if we can't solve this, we are in deep trouble. Yeah. Yeah. That's a very professional way of putting it, so thank you. So you talked about we can't stop the advocacy. Okay. As you're trying to move into official capacity here on the city council, who are and will remain your advocacy allies pushing for clean, accessible, affordable water in the Detroit area? Yep.

So there are organizations such as the People's Water Board. We the People of Detroit and, you know, there are organizations like Hydrate Detroit. We affectionately call all the folks that have been working on these issues for decades our water warriors here in Detroit. And it's like, I tell folks that the solutions to our problems are in our neighborhoods, right?

Mm. And these are folks that have been, you know, delivering water to folks when they had water shutoffs, that when the Flint water crisis happened, dropped everything and went to Flint to help ensure that families had water.

These are the folks that I take direction from, because these are the mothers of the communities that have been doing this work all the time, this entire time, that not only is doing the emergency response, but also developing policy to say, "Let's triage where folks are right now, and let's have long lasting change so we don't have to continue to do this."

Those are the folks that I will remain in partnership and advocacy space with. You know, there are folks, as I mentioned, on all levels of government. You know, Councilwoman Gabriela Santiago-Romero has been one to talk about environmental justice. Councilwoman Latisha Johnson in Detroit as well in dealing with infrastructure on the east side. State Senator Stephanie Chang, as I mentioned, has been leading the fight around water affordability on the state level.

Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, who I've, I had the opportunity to work with and be on her staff, has pushed on the federal level for more money around water infrastructure and water affordability, and even during COVID, pushed for there to be a moratorium o- on water shutoffs, right? And those are folks in the partnerships in the different levels of government that I really will work with to make sure that we have this really strong front in approaching this all and everywhere that we can.

I love that, man. I'm so glad for all your decades of water warriors. And, and again, it's not, for a lot of reasons, something we canPause on or stop at some point. Where, you know, we work with so many nonprofits and advocacy folks who would love to put themselves out of business, right? Like- Yeah... kids cancer or some shit. They're like, "I don't wanna do this job." No. No one should have to do this job. Let's make it not stop, but someone has to do it until we can do it, right?

Until you're ready to handle these floods that are gonna come, until you're ready to get rid of these lead pipes, until you're ready to do all this and make sure that... Here's the deal, water can't be shut off. Let's just start there. Let's make it a fundamental human right. So understanding that is a pretty black or white, like, measurable outcome. Yeah. What have you found so far?

What are you working on that you feel is transferable to more cities? 'Cause again, like Michigan is very deeply dealing with this, obviously, and has been the focus of national and international coverage. But what else is transferable on the district and local level, you feel like other cities and towns and municipalities could catch up on? I think it is...

'Cause I know that the answer will look different for different places. I think it is that, that coalition building- Mm-hmm... that is transferable. And what I mean by that, we've constantly had spaces where nonprofits, advocacy organizations, have been at the table with researchers, with folks that can dive deep into the data, folks that can look at other cities, and policymakers to say, "Here is the complete package" And also doing the organizing in the neighborhoods.

I think that is the most transferable, is to not lose sight of that organizing space and that complete package of bringing everyone to the table, to coalition build in that way. The reason I'm bringing that up is 'cause we know that we're gonna confront folks who are against this movement, and will come with disinformation and try to bring in things that, "Oh, well, if we do this, pe- we're gonna just be paying water bills."

No, it doesn't work like that. There are other places that have done. Mm-hmm. This is how it's done. They've actually got more money. I would say that's the m- most transferable thing that I can offer, is that coalition building space, so that we can confront at every space, whether it's research, policymaking, advocacy, on-the-ground conversations. That we're building a, a true coalition there. I love that, man. I have two remaining important questions.

One I've been asking guests for years, and it's fairly standard, which is, what book is working for you these days? It could be water related, or civic data, or it could be a coloring book, or about dragons. What do you recommend? We got a whole list up at Bookshop that people love. I'm going to... 'Cause I'm telling you, my brain at this point is much- Like mine? Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Yes.

But there is a book that I really, especially in, like, thinking about the city of Detroit, and I think it's this historical context that a lot of people will look at where we have come from in Detroit, and this breakdown of really the, I would say this corporatization and this view of, even in that conversation around water, of, "Oh, people just won't pay into it."

But Whose Detroit?, by Heather Ann Thompson- Okay... is a great book that folks, if you're gonna get the audiobook or read it, will look into. And it really dives deep into the labor movement, politics in Detroit, and how race comes up in Detroit as well. Because folks who may not know, Metro Detroit has a region that is deeply segregated.

And how we see politics come up in that is something that I think people really need to take from. So Whose Detroit? by Heather Ann Thompson is one that I would recommend. Awesome. We'll find it. And last one, what's a playlist you've been rocking lately? Okay. I love house music or the origins of house music in Detroit, but also there's this playlist on Apple that ha- is like Afro house music, which are Afrobeats and house music. So definitely recommend that.

And also, because, uh, I've been trying to do, you know, some grounding and meditation before I go into a day of campaigning, surprisingly, Ariana Grande has a breathing playlist on Apple. That's awesome. And I love it 'cause Ariana Grande is one of my favorite artists. So yeah. Can I tell you some crazy shit? Yeah. My wife wrote the Wicked movies. Really? So Ariana has been like...

My kids are like, "Oh, well she's our hero." And I'm like, "Yes. Correct. She is. You're welcome." But that's awesome. I will have to find her breathing list. That's awesome. Great. Rock and roll, man. It's awesome. Listen, Denzel, I can't thank you enough, man, for what you're doing and, and taking your time and sharing all that with us. I hope you win and crush this guy who walked out of the meeting. Just- Yeah... what a coward.

Put that on your ad. I really appreciate it. Let us know anything we can ever help with, man. Absolutely. A- I'm happy to keep you updated on this water fight as well. I appreciate you having me on, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Oh, real quick. I'm an idiot. Give me your campaign details. Oh. I was gonna mention that, but Denzel McCampbell again, candidate for Detroit City Council in District 7.

Folks can go to www.denzelfordetroit, it's all spelled out,.com. And also on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter as well. Okay. Rock and roll. We'll do that. We'll put it all in the show notes. Again, Denzel, thanks so much, man. That's it for this week, and I hope you loved these conversations and people as much as I do.

Huge, huge, huge thanks to our partners at Run for Something for all of their hard work every day, but also to bring these conversations to life. As always, this conversation was produced and edited by Willow Beck. Reminder, you can find candidates who are endorsed by Run for Something and other awesome organizations we trust at whatcanido.earth.

If you or someone you love is under 40 and wants to run for something at the state or local level but doesn't know what's available, head on over to runforwhat.net. And if you wanna know more about our work, read our newsletters and essays, check out our other podcast, or even get some of our awesome T-shirts, hoodies, stickers, or coffee mugs, head to importantnotimportant.com. Thanks for listening, and thanks for giving a shit.