Warning Signs

golf tournament, and it is very cute. It is a time when he gets to bring in his best friend from California to Texas to visit us and play in this golf tournament. Chris is the member and his best friendship is the guest, and so it's a beautiful thing. It's like watching two little guys get to have a playdate with a friend who moved away, or seeing two friends reunited summer camp a year, and it's just lovely. And I am a big proponent of friendships and their

importance in your romantic relationship. I love for Chris to have time with his guy friends for me to have time with my girlfriends. And that's actually something we get into on the podcast today, the importance of friendships and your social structure in making sure you're not in a dangerous romantic relationship. And that comes from our guest doctor Romney. She is so incredible. We've been working on getting around the podcast for a minute because she's very booked and busy.

She is a clinical psychologist, a retired professor of psychology, a best selling author. Her books include Don't You Know Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in the Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Inclivity. So that's what we're going to hit the nail on the head with today is narcissism. She through her research and her work, has basically become one of the experts of the people the forefront of

the research on narcissism. And I feel like narcissism is both obviously a very real thing, but then kind of this buzzword that we hear a lot lately, especially like in the worlds that Chris and I operate in of reality TV. You certainly hear people accusing others of being narcissists, And so the question is like, how real is it? How many people are really narcissists? How much of a buzzword is it? How much are we all encountering it

and don't know it. If you think you or a friend might be in a narcissistic relationship, this podcast is really going to help you. So Doctor Romney was incredible. She answered so many questions, gave so many good takeaways, and let's welcome her. Now, all right, doctor Romney, welcome. I am so excited to talk to you because I feel like if there's one person who pops up everywhere on my Instagram in the algorithm with these incredible takeaways

on narcissism, it is you. So now, first I want to ask you how did you become I mean, you've written multiple books about narcissism. How did you become the authority on narcissism? And is it something you wanted to become or did it just happen?

a great origin story. It's kind of boring. I came into it as an academic researcher and then as a practicing therapist, and in those spaces it was sort of it was one of those things where you like, the missing puzzle piece seems so easy, right, I'm like, well, if we explain narcissism, or we thought about this is narcissism, it all makes sense. But there was a lot of

resistance to it. You know. Where I really noticed is like the field of mental health didn't even want to take this on, and there was a lot of sort of being apologists for this behavior. Well maybe they have a reason. I'm like, there's no reason to emotionally abuse someone, Like, you're never going to come up with a rationale for

that for me. And so I got so I got into it again as a researcher and as a therapist, and it wasn't until many years later that I kind of opened my eyes to these patterns were definitely in my life too, and even my unwillingness to want to see it. That really took me much to get much more interested in what was happening to people in these relationships. Lots of people. I've written about narcissism, but what happens to people when they're in a narcissistic relationship. There was

much much less on that. So that was where That's how I came into it, and I was really struck by how much people are helped when they understand what this is about, and above all else that it's not their fault someone else. If someone else is treating you badly, that's not your fault. They're engaging in a behavior. And if you attempt to communicate with them and you get worse treatment back, you got a real problem on your hands. But then it's not you.

narcissistic behavior. The more outlanders, the more grandiose, the more attendency making we're standing up in applouding. I think of the influencer economy, this is basically somebody who's saying, look at me, look at me, look at me, and they're they're making a lot of money at well. Once upon a time, wasn't sort of a viable pathway to a career. And yet people, the best influencers, I would imagine, at some level, are able to sort of just sort of

make it about them. So in a strange way, narcissism could incentivize a person being more economically successful in our new sort of technologically driven economy. So I think though the word coming more into the purview was that political shift. I really believe it was that because as much as journalists tried to avoid using it, you couldn't avoid it,

because it was the word that worked. And then I think what happened was, you know, I mean, there were people out there, myself included, who id YouTube channels, and people were talking more about it, and then it helped people make sense of stuff, and that of course led to a lot of people wanting to talk about it. But then the problem is, and this has always been

the problem with narcissism, it's a subtle topic. It's not as simple as this is a person who brags, this is a person who looks in the mirror or a lot, this is a person who's superficial, or this is a person who's who's egocentric. It's not that simple. It's so much more subtle. And when we get into the weeds of the subtlety, that's when people really feel understood. But when we make it into more this simplistic black and white, like my boyfriend cheated on me, he's narcissistic, I'm like,

your boyfriend cheated on you. But we're gonna have to ask a few more questions to figure out if this guy's narcissistic. That was not a nice thing to do, but not everyone who does that is narcissistic. So I think people are using the word as a hammer to put people down, to paint themselves as the person who's suffering. And it's not that simple. And I think the subtlety means that we have to have a different kind of

a conversation. Unfortunately, the Internet and social media aren't built for subtlety.

it's fun. But in the same breath, in the other parts of their life, they're empathic, they're compassionate, they don't believe they deserve special treatment, they're emotionally regulated, they don't lash out at other people. So if a person does that and post selfies, it's just like, I don't know, Maybe that's our hobby, that's what they like to do, maybe they like to share their lives. But if they're not harming other people in their life, that this is

something I like to do. That's very, very different than the person who's posting selfies and raging at people for not liking their pictures and being jealous of other people who are posting pictures and making fun of other people's pictures and feeling you know, entitled to people paying attention to their special things. Like it's that it's not just the selfies, it's not just the infidelities. It's not just

like people who might. I don't know, like one, because a lot on their appearance could be and like I said, it ups the probability, but it's not a guarantee. And I think we have to be careful that if somebody does one selfish thing. My sister didn't come to my birthday party, she's so narcissistic. I want to say, can you tell me a little bit more about your sister?

And then i'd have to find now if you keep telling me that this is just one of a thousand of these instances, maybe so, But if that's the thing your sister did, and otherwise you've had a good relationship with her, and the first time she disappoints you, you're calling her narcissistic. Yeah, that's not how that works.

excessive need for admiration and validation. They need to be in control, they need to be the ones in power. And the way this shows up in relationships it again they can be very again domineering and controlling. But the thing you got to remember too is a lot of narcissistic people can be charming and charismatic, confident, compelling, attractive. There's something that's drawing us to them and what makes them sort of it allows them sort of enter situations easily.

But at the core of narcissism is a tremendous insecurity and that's the piece that sometimes makes people feel bad like, oh, if they're insecure, well I shouldn't. I shouldn't be dismissive. So it's not about being dismissive it's about being willing to clock their behavior is unacceptable. What's their behavior? Their behavior tends to be very manipulative, dismissive, invalidating gas lighting. They get angry very quickly if they're frustrated, if they're disappointed,

they tend to lie. They'll cheat, they will blame, they'll shift blame on other people even though they're clearly responsible. They won't take responsibility for anything. They will breadcrumb. They'll give people less and less and less, and before you know it, you're like, oh my gosh, they said thank you, it was such a good day. You know, like that's probably do low a bar. There is a there's a lot of shame in these relationships, and when they feel shame,

they rage out at other people. So there's a lot of volatility, a lot of dysregulation. Narcissistic people often walk around feeling like victims. If things don't go the way they want, they're the victim. There can be overt aggression, there can be passive aggression. That's what narcissism is. And like I said, it really belies an easy one line like narcissistic people or people love themselves, they actually don't

love themselves. At all. There's a lot of self loathing in a narcissistic person, but that they're not in touch with all that stuff. So it really comes off as a person who just says, look at me, I'm so great and everyone's lucky to know me.

might have like a clinical psychopath. So do you like, how do we then diagnose people as narcissists or could you say someone as narcissistic tendencies? Like what if they check eight of those boxes but they don't lie, but they do a bunch of the other things.

the therapist you talk to. Is absolutely right. It is on a spectrum, and at the mild end, you know it is a It's like ecocentricity, selfishness, some arrogance, emotional immaturity, emotional stuntedness at best, sometimes annoying, but if you're in a relationship with them, it's more problematic when you get all the way up to the top of the top of the distribution. Now you're talking about malignant narcissism, which is coercive and manipulative and exploitative. They take advantage of

people's vulnerabilities. These are people who are isolating. It's scary. It can even be physically violent. And in between there's all the other All the other stuff shows up. It just shows up to varying or lesser degrees. Psychopathy is its own separate category. While there's a lot of overlap

between narcissism and psychopathy, they're not the same thing. So I view the top of that narcissism continuum, malignant narcissism to almost be the last stop on the train where you switch trains to go over to psychopathy station, which is real close by, by the way, And so it

is a continuum. And that's why a person who's in a relationship or maybe has a sibling or a parent who's mildly narcissistic, and they were to hear the story of someone who's in a severely narcissistic relationship, they might even say, maybe this person isn't narcissistic. My god, they are sort of mildly narcissistic, but certainly it's not the same as someone who's in a relationship with someone who's

malignantly narcissistic. So I think it's when I try to tell people this over and over again, don't get lost in trying to figure out if this person is narcissistic, but give yourself permission to call out patterns in that relationship that are unhealthy. Just call them out to yourself, because if this person's narcissistic, they're not going to listen to you. So it's less about that are they narcissistic, and more about what's happening in this relationship.

is narcissism. But I think that because we associate the narcissism with the part that's not going to change Anyone who's got these kinds of interpersonally harmful behaviors across situations consistently and shift blame and if you try to point things out, they rage even more. That's not going to change. There's no in if you try to show them what's happening? They scream at you. More so, how are you ever going to facilitate change? There's no possibility. That's what tells you the door shut.

And then you realize that that person, like for me anyway, was not putting in any effort and nothing was changing. And so then that was when I got out of it, and I was like, whoa, maybe I am Like I had been questioning if I myself was capable of a healthy relationship, and I got out of it, and then I'm like, oh no, wait, it wasn't me. I am kidding. And it's a little striking because I also think of myself as a person, and so then I think, but

how did I wind up in that? And I wanted to ask you about that, because it's because of what you mentioned earlier when you said that you'd seen in your own life, maybe you had some people like that in your own life as well. So was that a little Did you have an experience like that where you thought, wait, how did I wind up here? Now?

In fact, you just lay out laid out here a really important exercise I do with survivors, which is this idea of let's play out this timeline and you just you know, you you identified such an important point here, which was when I met him, I had you know, I was going through this really transitional phase in my life, and I always this is why when you when you meet new when you're entering relationships after a big breakup, a move to a new city, a major loss in

your family, you have to be very careful because you're not on your game in the same way, and you're often looking for something that's actually beyond traditional intimacy, like a place to land, a place to belong, and because of that, you may not miss you, and so you may not see some of the patterns, like a person moving to a new city is just so relieved to have a place, like a person to be in touch with that we might be more likely to excuse things that we wouldn't have if we were in a much

more sort of unsteady footing, we'd be like that, not okay, but somehow in the newer, in that transitional space or when we're trying to find something else, we're more likely to do it. So it's it's interesting because being in a transitional space like that, or being in a rush like people are like Okay, I'm thirty six. I got to get me into a relationship kind of thing. Is that is also a tricky spot because people will be like, Okay, this person's manning four out of the things on my list.

That's enough, and you're like, okay, we'll deal with the rest of that later. It's almost like I'm just gonna put everything in a closet and deal with it later. I'm like, that's going to catch up on you. And so that's with the That's one of the issues is that you by understanding that how so many of us when we go back to that origin story, there was either a we were drawn and I'm guessing even with

your former partner, there was something quite compelling. You were drawn to, whether they were attractive, interesting, confident, charming, charismatic. Sometimes even people say it's interesting. They weren't any of those things, but they were there seemed to be like this kind of underdog, unlucky feel. And the person says, and I own it. I'm a fixer and I wanted to get in there and give them a car and give them a place to live and help them. And they said, I I feel alive when I help people.

The problem is then instead, they don't even identify it as sort of the love bombing, because it's more of this kind of I was helping them, and I felt good about it, and I could see some shifts, and then they were in this relationship with someone who's always a victim and passive aggressive, and you're like, huh, So my point is is that all of us are attracted

to narcissistic people because they're attractive. Okay, all of us are, in our fashion attractive to narcissistic people because we're all attractive in our own unique ways, right, we all represent different kinds of supply. The real question and the real problem learning comes down to who gets stuck in these relationships because some people will see those patterns and say, ye, no,

this isn't cool and I'm going to get out. But there's things about us that make us more vulnerable to getting stuck, and that could be having had narcissistic parents and early history of trauma, being a forgiver, like believing I'm going to just keep giving them second chances, being a rescue were, being optimistic, being really empathic. All of those things make you more vulnerable to getting stuck. So you have these vulnerabilities to getting into the first place,

but more importantly, we have vulnerabilities to getting stuck. And those are the more meaningful ones because I think we all at some level are attracted to them, and it made sense what we were attracted to. But if we're at all in a tricky spot. And I know for some folks i've met, I was in a transitional phase and that's what made me. That's what made me sort of

off my game. And that's why I always say, if you're gonna, if you're going to go out there and try to meet people, it's like the Olympics, Like you got to be in your touch, your your fighting shape and weight, Like you've got to be meaning that you've got to be in a good place, right, Like a relationship is never a substitute for a crappy life.

be in when they're looking for a relationship. What are some hallmarks of like their mental state and where they're at in their life When it's like, okay, you can now go have a good, healthy relationship, because I think so often we're out there trying to find the right person, not making sure that we're in the right place for the right relationship.

like if I've got my person, I'll be fine. The hell you will. Your network is actually gonna end up being more important. That's number one. Number two is that you have you have things in your life that are yours, whether they're meaningful and purposeful, through your work, through your things you do in your community, through creative endeavors, things that matter to you that you know like this is my this is my thing, like this and I'm going to do it, and I'm going to it matters to

me to build it in my life. That you're very aware that you've got that piece in that you are in a you've got healthy routines. I know it sounds silly, like, oh, come to me, like brush your teeth. Yeah, kind of brush your teeth, Like you've got things like you do, and you've got rhythms in your life. That gets back to that transitional space because one and you don't have

to live someplace twenty five years of a routine. It's just that you've got things in your life that are your touchstones and your landmarks, and they're predictable and you value those and I think that those things we kind of have to have. Those things that obviously we have

to address our mental health. Like a person who is whatever mental health issues may be coming up that they feel like they haven't addressed, it would be good to address those because those sorts of things, too can lead someone to doubt their judgment with a new person or almost sometimes sell themselves short as they're meeting people. Those

things matter. But I'm gonna be serious with you, girl, like I have to say I've met narcissistic people when I was at the top of my game, and that I have to say to a lot of people listening to this. I think there's people saying, you know, when I met the narcissistic person I was. I loved my job, I love my apartment, I love my friends. So while those things are important, they're not a narcissism antidote effect

of anything. People kind of almost get I don't want to say cocky, but cocky where they think like, I'm in a great place. And so when the things start happening, because a narcissistic relationship isn't a switch that goes on, We're having a great relationship. Now I'm going to gaslight you twenty times a day. It's a slow indoctrination, and so you're in this great thing and it kind of gets worse slowly. I always say it starts off like

ninety nine percent good and maybe one percent bad. Then it goes down to ninety percent good, ten percent bad, eighty percent good, twenty percent bad, seventy thirty, sixty, forty. One day you wake up, it's fifty to fifty. By fifty to fifty, though, you're probably doing a lot of

mental heavy lifting around justifying and rationalizing. And maybe it's me and maybe I'm being too demand or maybe I'm being too selfish about wanting to hold onto my former life forty sixty thirty seventy one day you wake up and you're at ten ninety and it's just not a good scene. And every so often maybe there's a less abusive day or something.

like costco. They just keep lots of stuff on the shelf, and so they will keep you around because you serve some function to them. You might be a source of status, You might connect them to certain people. You might be predictable, You might make them look good in public because now they have a fiance or they have a girlfriend or a wife or a partner or whatever. And so you serve a function, you're part of a performance, and so they're not ready to give up your part. But it's

almost like once they know they've got you. I always say it's like a butterfly under glass. Once they capture the butterfly under glass, they kind of put it on a shelf and forget about it. And so they chase you for a while to get you and the net and get you under the glass. And once they get you under the glass, you're a beautiful thing that sits on the shelf.

makes so much sense. The status collection and the butterfly under the glass, Well we got a fly free think, you know. And by the way, I'm like, thank god I got out. I'm so happy now. It taught me so much. I really believe, like we have to learn where we've been, and if you're happy where you are, you can't regret where you've been because it led me here. But what how much do people have to look out

for this? Like is there data on what percentage of people out there are on that narcissism spectrum or or I don't know if it if maybe you give me that number by saying they would be narcissists holy or just somewhere on the spectrum. What's the percentage?

rough numbers, we just collected this data. What we were finding was, you know, we were finding rates in the way we were measuring it, of about ten percent, so one in ten, one in ten people who are narcissistic enough where you'd notice it where it caused problems in a relationship kind of thing. Right, So it's not so mild that people would be like whatever, they like their selfies or you know, they're obsessed with getting plastic surgery

or whatever. You know, the people like, it's not they're not mean, they're sort of ridiculous, but that's about it. The one in ten is enough that people are like, yeah, no, this isn't cool, Like there is manipulation, There is that kind of thing. So that's I think that's not a bad guess. Now, in that ten percent, we have the whole range from the mild to the severe. If I would say the severe probably one to three percent of

the total. You know, I would say that the milder one, you know, the milder ones are all like it's probably pretty even, but maybe the least the least would be the one percent of the entire population would be the severe one to two percent, and then we'd see the higher percentages of the moderate and the milder ones.

la la la. And then they and they were also an alcoholic and they were rageful. And then they went to treatment and they went to twelve step and they did all the things. They worked the steps and they said and they came out the other end and it was like a new person and it was no longer a tough relationship. And they assumed that the person was

narcissistic because they had all the narcissistic step. But then they went through treatment, they were sober, and they'd been sober for a few years, and like, this is much better. That to me is probably someone who just had addiction. When you have someone who has both, they will go through treatment, they will stop drinking, stop using, whatever come out, and maybe six, nine, twelve months out are not using. But they're still manipulative, they're still gaslighting, they're still entitled.

They might even weaponize their sobriety. Look how much better I am than you? Like that kind of stuff, And in those circumstances, family, loved ones, friends will be like there as bad as always. Maybe the rage is a little bit tamped down, but this is as bad as always. When we thought if they got sober, things would get better, that's when I hear the story that there was a lot of narcissism under that addiction. And the problem is a lot of substance abuse. Substance use treatment it's not

focused addiction. Treatment is not focused on personality. We don't have enough time. It's often like twenty eight day to six week if you're lucky treatment centers. Probably about ninety percent of people living with addiction don't have access to high quality treatment, while twelve is free and in some ways twelve step programs do kind of try to chip away at the narcissism by addressing things like accountability and you know, the relative powerlessness, like taking away that sense

of power, making genuine amends, addressing selfishness, being humble. Those are actually attempts to dismantle the narcissism. But I've known plenty of people go through twelve step and they're still they're showing up to twelve step narcissistic. It's almost like competitive twelve step or something, which is not really how the program is.

so selfish? You make everything about your Yeah, they're a kid, and so if the child has a need the parent will feel it. Will often say they're inconvenienced about it, or that it's selfish. The child has that The child is often only noticed when they're a convenience to the parent or they're making the parent look good. So all of that combines to really teach a child that the only way I can attach to this caregiving person in my life is to become what they want. I can't

be my true self. If my true self shows up, it will be dangerous. This person is going to reject me. Kid can't take that kind of a risk. So the child really learns to suppress themselves. The clinical term is the subjugated itself. They just sort of they become what the other person, in many ways wants to survive. You know, and depending on how severe the parent's narcissism is it can be actually be quite traumatizing and unsettling, and so

you never quite feel psychologically safe. So the child learns a safety behavior in all of this is really to sort of to give in or to sort of hold back, but more than anything is to cut off parts of themselves because it's too dangerous for those things to show up.

And that love is conditional. So if that's the model you grew up with, and now you're out in the world meeting people, then when somebody's behaving like that, and I'm not, by no means am I saying that people who grow up with the narcissistic people are massa chiss

or signing up for this. What happens is is that when they get into a relationship and it starts out good and all of that, when that's slow in validation that ninety ten, eighty twenty I was talking about, When that slow invalidation kind of kicks in, then the person sort of it's it's you've been indoctrinated to believe that's somewhat normal, and in fact to express the need is not good. So the first time the narcissistic your partner tells you, you're being selfish for expressing a need that's

actually completely in line with anything you've ever known. In fact, you doesn't even feel like weird in your body. You're like, of course, here, I am being selfish again. We may not run away from the so called red flags because they're sort of normalized, and it really diminishes your sense of self to have a narcissistic parent. So it's a lot harder to advocate for yourself, to stand up for yourself, to show up as your real self. You may not even know what that is because it was never allowed

to blossom or develop. So those are all the ways that it can make you more vulnerable.

Is that the degree to which we could create a coherent narrative about our childhood that accounts for everything to say, like, my parent was super selfish, they were in no position to be a parent. My bad luck was I got assigned to them as them being my parent, and as a result, I didn't learn to express myself and I got to take a minute and figure out who I

am and understand, like this could be my parent. I can even kind of have that sense of love or duty or obligation to a parent, but recognize like not cool, like this was not okay. When we can hold on to something like that, we're actually in a better position to say, who this feels like it's happening again. But since most people when we meet people, we tend to be younger, right, we often tend to get into relationships, especially some people get into their permanent relationships in their

twenties or long term relationships twenties early thirties. It's amazing how unself examined remain up to that point, because there's still a lot of neural development happening till we're twenty five. The prefrontal cortex is still rocking and rolling until you're about twenty five years old, and so it's by the time all that happens, you're you're already at an age of people. I think you're getting into relationships, and so that creation is a coherent narrative that you know, either

people it's one extreme or the other. Like cause also some people like I have nothing to do with my family, they harmed me so much at the level of trauma, that's a different kind of working through. But I think that that you're not. Nobody's doomed, but I think it's trickier. And if somebody had a parent like this, there's a little bit more work that needs to be done. And in essence, you almost have to move slower into a relationship.

So you can almost like let each step settle. It's almost like walking into cold water, like okay, let me let my feet get we a little warm market, let's go up to my knees instead of running with reckless abandon into the surf. And so you got to take a minute and kind of get used to it, because otherwise those old pad can flood us and it's and then we feel like this is you know, this is how it is. This is how relationships are well and.

here yet. And you know, we all it's wonderful to search for love because you know, I think we're all here to find love and love is the most beautiful thing on earth. But I don't think love is going to solve all your problems. And I don't think that your romantic relationship needs to be the end all be all in your life. Like all these other parts of us are so important and actually make our romantic relationships better, but we don't do that. We look for the love, especially when we're young.

huge contributor to psychological health. But I think this idea of your one person forever or that has to happen when you're younger, even though women have to have children, I think to allow people to take that time with themselves subjectively and say what could this look like with me? One thing? I'm really inspired, especially when I'm seeing younger gen z. They're making a lot more. They're being more

creative in their decision making around relationships. And I think some in my age, I mean like there was only one path to take and if you didn't, you were weird and so but I think that you know, we know actually for the longest time marriage benefited men more than women. It did because I mean, think about it, somebody came into my house and decided to clean it and cook me meals and have sex with me and do stuff for me. I'm like, where do I sign

up for this? Like, I mean that's not how it works for me.

have the guy. I'm like, no, giving up stuff like The Little Mermaid is the ultimate subjugation story, literally giving up her own emphasize that she gives up her voice and she gives up her tail and she gives up her home. Ladies don't give us stuff off, please.

end up living where he wanted? And I don't know if it's women like kind of being easy going and sort of deferring and not problem causing and not demanding, you know, but I still see that quite a lot, I think, even in relationships that are a lot more equal than ones that I saw like our mothers having.

with anything, like you know, the cool girl. The cool girl, I'm convinced is something that the narcissistic people dropped into the into the into the narcissism into the internet world, so that people are like, I want to be the cool, easy breezy girl. I'm a cool, easy breezy girl, has no needs and has no voice and no, no, no, no, no no. It's and I'm not saying be rigid demanding person. No no no, I'm saying that have needs and wants

and voice them and and have it be a conversation. Rather, I'm just going to go with the flow because I don't want to lose this person. I don't want to seem needy. That's often where and that in a he with a healthy partner that could end up being the healthy partner saying and even that can even be a little bit taken advantage of there, but the healthy partner say, hey, no, I want to hear what you want to do. Do you

want to move here or not? Because if you don't, then we need to find a compromise, be cause I don't want you to be unhappy in this place, right, But I but with a narcissistic partner and you're easy, breezy, forget it your toast, they will completely run rough shot over that. And I think a lot of people are sold that bill of goods at the easier like flexible is great, but zacly like giving up on yourself is not.

And that's I'm not saying that's even that final line, but I think people have trouble saying that, Like, I want to be flexible, flexible super flexible means still having needs. Flexible still means still making things known, preferences known, and understanding. You may still not get the thing you want, but you felt heard, so compromises can be made wherever you end up, if that makes sense. And I think we viewed as an either or that's the problem.

like you're mentioning the Disney thing. When you're little, you're raised on stories of heroes and villains and good and evil, and then the older you get you realize all the gray area of people and the gray area of relationships and conversations like yep, and yeah, I think there was a lot of like how I wound up in that relationship was a lot of like relationships take work, and so you're working at it, but then you have to see those subtleties of like but is this too much work?

Is this fair amount of work? Is the other person working? And you have to sort through all that. So when you're sitting and you're talking to someone who's maybe like actively in a relationship with a narcissist, and you can see it, but maybe they can't see it. What are things that you say, Like, I'm thinking of people who are worried about their girlfriend who's in a relationship, or

their guy friend or whatever. What do you say to your friend to kind of make them wake up or see or what are some things where you can help people easily pinpoint hey, this is not good and it's not going to get better.

into that hole. The best thing you can do is if you're watching something like this happen at a private moment, just check in, like you doing okay, and they'm like, yeah, why you know, I just saw that in the kitchen and I'm gonna be honest with you like that was hard to listen to it. Who's felt critical. I just wanted to hear if you're doing okay now. I could almost promise you the first time you do that, the person you approach like the friend, they're gonna say, no, no,

it wasn't. But there's something else happening that you're not aware of. You've put a light on something that they kind of knew wasn't cool, and for the first time, you're kind of on gaslighting them. And but they're not going to say that to you right away. They're gonna they're gonna they're say no, no, I was cool like that, that's nothing, But inside the wheels are starting to churn, and to reassure them saying okay, okay, I don't want

to overstep. I'm here, you know, I just you know, you're amazing and I want you to be treated well. And you take and then take ownership and say I didn't love what I saw. That one interaction could be enough for somebody to say I was right. Isn't cool? But I didn't know? And then it might and then you might and you gently approach again, gently approach again.

You might even do things like, hey, you know what, there's this new something something you want to go spend a few hours just you and me go and as friends, and then check in and see how they're doing. You might even see them loosen up and you know, and then slowly have them comment on that it'll come around quicker than you think. But what you can't do is they're narcissistic. Now, obviously this doesn't apply in cases where

there's physical abuse or anything like that. I'm talking more of like the sort of that that psychological poking and slicing away. It's like the death by a thousand cuts that's happening in front of you. You know, you have to be careful even calling it the narcissistic out narcissistic person out. Let's say you know the narcissistic person well, and you can say like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, what

are you doing? You might have some power there, but you have to be careful because that narcissistic person then may go doubly hard at the person in a relationship with them. But I think it's pointing out and saying I saw something it wasn't cool. I hope you're okay. I saw it, I didn't think it was okay. I got you, and then let them run with them.

So for someone else, love is taking out the trash and never complaining about it. Right, But I think that it's the lack of a shared definition. That's the old Bell Hooks quote, right, you know, it's the problem with it. Would all it would be helpful if we had a shared definition of love kind of thing. I'm butchering the quote. But we But it's that's the problems. We don't have a shared definition. For a narcissistic person, love is very transactional,

and it's very oriented towards supply. It's sort of does it giveing me a great example, narcissistic person, they go to work that day and they have a great day at work. They get the promotion like, let's celebrate whatever.

They You guys get ready each time to go out to dinner, You go to dinner, you get to the restaurant, and you know, completely by coincidence, the person, the host, whatever, theater says, you know what, like we had a reservation, not show up like this, the fabulous table overlooking the water came free, like I'd love to give it to you.

Guys are a beautiful couple. Narcissistic persons like come on in and then you're sitting down and then they're like, hey, you know what, Like the manager is sending over two glasses of wine. So the narcissistic person is being treated like the most special person in the world. And they turn to their partner like, baby, I love you so much. They love the night, they love that day, right, they don't. I'm not convinced that they love all these feelings. I'm special.

I got special table, I got special glass of wine, I got the promotion. I love this day. But it

turns into I love you. And when you're in a narcissistic relationship, you hold on one of those nights, and then the next day they come to find out the promotions not hold getting giving them the raise they want, and then they hit some traffic on the way home, and then there's a problem comes up, and you're still thinking you're still in the glow of I love you night with the wine and the table and they come home and you're all affectionate, and they're all rumpy and mean,

like what what do you want? Like what dinner? What are you talking about? Like I have to work late, and and you feel like what the hell? Just how do we go from I love you to this? Because they loved the night, they're not loving this day. So it feels like they don't love. You know, they don't love what's happening. They don't. They're not They're not getting enough supply. So they tell people that their definition of love is supply how they feel. It's not really about

the other person. It's the love for them is does this look good? Does it feel good to me? Versus this sense of I'm in something with you? This is shared, I got your back, And that's a very different definition, and I think people will make. The big mistake people make in narcissistic relationships is they have that argument you said you love me, you don't love me. And I always tell people, don't tell the narcissistic person they don't

love you. They think they do. You just have different definitions.

narcissism that's on the rise, and that's vulnerable narcissism. These are the more resentful, socially anxious, more socially isolated, rootingly angry, passive, aggressive, victimized, sullen narcissists. Here's where social media has given them a kind of a scary megaphone. Whereas these folks often didn't always like they kind of be grumpy in their lives. Maybe they'd be the grumpy drunk at the corner bar.

there was a random narcissist in Kansas. I don't live in Kansas. So now that narcissist Kansas canna make a lot of noise on the Internet and on social media. And so I think these tools are uniquely suited to the two narcissistic people. I really really think that they are. But I think that it's a I think that what's also happening is we're rewarding narcissism. But let learn, let me put it to you this way. I I am

someone like you. Know again, you and I are both in the public guye right, And I know damn well. If I was more aggressive, if I was more assertive, if I was more entitled, if I was more demanding, my career would probably be bigger. And the idea of doing that makes me sick. It really does make me physiologically ill. Like people are like, no, do this, and it's okay if you sort of that person under the bus,

I'm like, I gotta sleep. I can't do it. And there's more than a couple of times in my career where if I could have done something that I think would have disadvantaged someone I care about. And I'm not saying I'm just some kind of damn martyr. I'm not. It's just I know what I can tolerate. And there are times, you know, I mean, sure we all do our things, but I'm like I couldn't, but I see people who can't, like their career is on fire, and so it is. I mean, there's certain you know, does

that make sense? I think that this idea that now everyone's becoming narcissistic to be on social media, people's personalities don't change like that a person might say, may a person may do weird things like keep posting their breakfast, but it actually just might be this sweet thing, Like it's like posting a muffin. Like before we tell this person they're narcissistic, like, talk to them. Maybe they just like blueberry muffins. Yeah, so you see what I'm saying.

So I think we're so quick to think like everyone's narcissistic. But I think that you're not going to turn a person. Now here's where it's gonna get funky. Though. So it is now twenty twenty four and what Facebook and all that nonsense came out with two thousand and six seven eight around there. I don't remember Facebook began, so we're almost staying twenty years. So we're about to see the first cohort of kids that were born into a social

media world and are about to hit adulthood. Folks, hold on to your hats because this group of kids, we just don't know. It's the first time we're ever going to see from the day they were born, there were lives that were shaped on how they would be shown in media. Like I have kids, but they were born when there was no social media, so there was in fact, only blackberries were in fact, nope, there was no cell phones.

In fact, I had to get like I had to get like a cell phone where it was like, you know, five hundred dollars a month to like talk for a minute, to just tell my husband at the time that I was going into labor, like it was that. So we didn't have any of that, And so I don't have a children who didn't grow up at that. But this is the first group. So I really think that the jury's out on what this data is going to say.

But I think to somebody who's thirty years old, their personality is not going to become narcissistic because social media.

is in private, And yeah, I think you know. My take on it is social media can be good for a lot of things, but can also be very bad in a lot of ways. And it's interesting you're talking about the career thing, like I wanted to be a journalist, right, and then social media happened, like right when I was graduating, and it became this necessary thing, like in my contracts,

like you have to post about your thing. You have to And I've always sort of hated it, honestly, Like there are parts that I like connecting with people on, but I don't like being like here's this interview I did, but it was in my contracts. I had to do it. And I've heard is that a good gauge like for pe people who are listening I've heard what a good gauge is is on are you a narcissist? Is like, if you're asking are you a narcissist? If you're examining that,

then you're probably not. Is that accurate?

Look at you so demanding, and literally their demand is like could we just have dinner together? Like could you come home one night a week? And you're so demanding? And so I think a lot of people have been told that by narcissistic families, by narcissistic partners and have wondered, well, maybe I am asking that and maybe I'm being too asky and you know, needy or something like that. So our demand eer gives. Really what it comes down to, but I think that the if people are willing to

sort of inspect that, that's a good time. I do think there are some narcissistic people out there who know they're narcissistic. I've worked with folks like that clinically, that doesn't necessarily mean they make the change or like they'll even say like I'm in a whole like I know that and I know that gets me into trouble, and then I have to really ask. I'm like, do you want to change that? And like, well, yeah, Mike, do

you realize what it means to change? And that's when they're like, oh, not so sure.

trying to make it healthier. What's some of the first things that you say to people if they think they might be in a narcissistic relationship.

patient person. You've got to make sure that it's not linked that changes to behavior that might be more selfish or angry or something like that aren't linked to one thing, and maybe have even come back after that, but you're clear on what these patterns are. The next piece then is the radical acceptance. Narcissism doesn't really change. It doesn't so anything you're doing in this relationship is based on

this idea that it's not really going to change. So it's never going to be a relationship that's deep, that's got close intimacy, that where there's a lot of emotional attunement, or availability, and there's a lot of grief that comes around that, and you've got to hold on. You've got to let that process unfold because it otherwise you might go running back. I don't want to hear that. La la la la. This isn't happening. And then it's about

you have to make decisions. Not everyone, Lauren, can leave these relationships. Some people they have minor children, they don't have the money or the supports, or there's duty, obligation, religion, culture. There's many, many reasons people say. Sometimes people stay because they've got hope. That's a tricky reason because it's never going to get better. Or people stay because they're like, even though this isn't great, I just want to be part of a family. That's fine. And I always tell

people you need to make a choice for you. Nobody can tell you what to do, but if you're going to do it, it better be eyes wide open. And that means if you stay, it means this person is still going to be this way. So don't engage as much, you know, disengage, build out your other supports, create other meaningful activities in your life. It ain't happening here. If you leave, be prepared for post separation abuse, smear campaigns and other forms of like you don't get to walk

away sort of you know, sort of unscathed. So there's difficulties all around, and some people decide to stay for a while and say, now that I see this for what it is. I tried for a year, it's not working, and then they decide to go. But I think it's in it. I think if you can, accessing therapy can also make a big difference, because this can really be experienced as a massive loss the dream you had of a happy marriage, or your kid's all growing up with two parents in a home, or you know, having a

close relationship with parents or something like that. When those hopes go, it's very, very, very painful. And so how having someone to help you walk through that all of this can make a difference. And understanding that there's going to be good days and bad and that every sometimes you might get sucked back into these relationships and doesn't mean you've failed. I mean, in many ways, that connected part of you is still there and it's working, and

sometimes it's not always your best friend. But better that you get to retain your empathy and compassion, then you feel like you've lost it because of this relationship.

explore them. And the great part is the community is weighing into so it's slowly, but surely you're going to become, we hope, like the world's largest virtual support group for people with who are going through toxic relationships. And I have to say just I see the comments and the comments are so supportive that I see how much again, while I love my part in it, it's amazing to watch how much people buy each other. So go to the Doctor Romedy Network sign up and if you really

care about these issues. You're going to see. You're definitely not alone, and it's really amazing to get to have that back and forth and to hear different people's stories, and there's guests and you get to ask the guest questions too, so it's really cool. Because we had to guess who's like an expert on relationships. You can ask them a question too, So it's a chance to really get instead of just watching and listening, you actually get to get in there and ask some questions of your own.