This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast. Chris Harrison coming to you from the home office in Austin, Texas today, And I'm really excited about this show because I'm kind of diving back into the history books, into the archives an old friend of mine, and I say old because well we are now. Michael Stagliano. You guys
might remember him from his Bachelorette and Bachelor Pad days. Well, I was listening to a podcast the other day and he said that he was celebrating his fifteenth anniversary of being on the show. I was like, there's no way that can't be true. Fifteen years that's when that season Jillian Harris is season of The Bachelorette. I had to go back. I honestly had to google it and look it up, and I'm like, damn it, he's right. Fifteen
years ago. He was on season five The Bacheorette with Jillian Harris, who, if you don't remember, was this really fun, loving Canadian girl and it was a great season. When I look back at seasons, I look back at who was on it, and I'm like, wow, so many people came from that show to be a part of Bachelor Pad, Future Bachelor's, Bachelor in Paradise, etc. And that was one of those seasons, that kind of lightning bulb season where a lot of stars from our franchise came from it,
and Michael Stagliano was one of them. He became really popular because he was not only on the Bachelorette with Jillian. He didn't win that season spoiler alert, but he went on to season two of Bachelor Pad and season three of Bachelor Pad, which was a bit of a game show we started back in the day where there was two hundred and fifty thousand dollars on the line. We would bring in nine women and nine guys from this show that was just on and they would compete and
try and couple up, et cetera. And it was fun and that is what led to Bachelor in Paradise. We took a summer off and then Paradise came in because the game show element was a little problematic for us because we always wanted to dive into the relationships and the love and the romance and the drama, but you
had to really service the game show aspect. So Stagliano, we actually talked about him becoming the Bachelor on a couple of occasions, and then for one reason or another, Jake Pavelka became the Bachelor and whoever else took over, and it just kind of got away from him as far as being the Bachelor, but we always kept him in the franchise because he was so popular and it was it was just it really struck me that he
was on the show fifteen years ago. So I thought we got to revisit this, and I want to have him on the show today to talk about those seasons and what he remembers looking back and then where he is now. So welcoming Michael Stagliano to the most dramatic podcast ever. Why do you still look about the same age. It's you know, we're celebrating the fifteen year reunion of you being on the show.
Yeah. When you say it out loud, Chris, it dates us us considerably. So that puts me I'm forty.
Now, Chris, Well, well let me date you further. I had been doing the show for quite some time before you go on Sefty two. Don't age me, don't age me. I look great, I do. I found myself telling people that I'm just older now. So they'll be like, oh, you look good for your age.
You do look good for your age.
I am fifty three.
Chris, You're fantastic for your age. Let me be adamant about it. What do you I bet Lauren has you eating very well?
She does, she keeps. And you know, here's the thing.
I don't.
I started going gray. You can't see it, but yeah, but I didn't go Ari gray like Ari started. I Ari started going gray and he beat me. He just went gray. We were at long Gale's wedding and I'm like, dude, you're You've gone full gray, so like mine, hit the sides and it just kind of stops so up top, I have not. I don't know why I'm I'm holding on.
Yeah, but even in the facial hair, it looks it looks sophisticated on you, not like, oh, he's getting Do you know what I mean when I say that?
Well, you know it's funny. So and I'm sure I don't know if this happened to you. You still have a nice, thick, dark beard. And I would trim my beard and then you would empty out the little shavings and it used to be, oh, it's all all pepper and then it would be oh, there's a little salt in there. Now it's like, wow, is there any pepper in here? Is it all salt?
Oh? Is this what I have to look forward to?
Yes? But the good news is salt, we have now learned, has gone done to three sixty. It's good for you again. So salt is good. So we're that's you. Should you stay stay hydrated.
Wait, I'm sorry, do you mean like only Himilian sea.
Yeah, only Himialan sea salt, not the salt on your face?
Got it? Yes, big difference, big difference.
But no, I was so you and I were talking and I had I guess I saw something else you did. And you mentioned this has been fifteen years, the fifteen year reunion or anniversary of you doing the show, And I'm like, my god, that's right. Gillian Harris's season, which was I believe season five of The Bachelorette Chris.
It was the first season that aired in high definition. Really think about that. Oh, that's right, historic that season was and she was the best ever. But yes, she was our first non American, first non American, she was we had a Canadian, she was Canadian. That's funny.
I didn't. I didn't realize that that was our first HD show. Man, my life changed. I was so good in uh low Death. I was crushing it.
Well, how many years did you do it? You did at least a decade more right? Yeah?
I did ten years in high definition. I was holding on for dear life. I created the entire scandal just so I could just get away from high high definition TV, and you.
Pulled it off. This always I actually have a fascination around this. Yes, what what do you remember from that time? It seems to me like the show has changed quite a lot. Maybe about that, but from what I've heard, it seems like it's changed a lot. What do you remember from even like Bachelor Pad days, the shout I.
I don't mean this in a negative way at all to the presence or to the future. I know I remember it being fun and and and that goes a lot to where I was in my life of just being younger and starting out in this this ride in this career, and the show was really banging back then. I mean, we were crushing it. By Jillian season, we weren't the number one show on television anymore, but we
were the number one show on ABC. We were still dominating our night, and so we're on a roll, right, We're still on a heater, And I was just so much more. Maybe it's because I was closer in age to a lot of you, and so I befriended Jillian, I got to be friends with you, you know. I remember some of the other people that came through that season.
Even the crew. It seemed like was said it was kind of a good vibe.
There was this collegial camaraderie with us, with us all just having having fun. Nothing was controversial really back then, if you remember it, it wasn't. Everything didn't mean everything, you.
Know what I mean.
I feel like now, I feel like now everything that is said and done has to mean everything, and it gets dissected and torn apart, and it's like, you can't live like that. You can't produce television like that, and you certainly can't be a contestant, a silly contestant on a silly reality show like that, because you can't be that serious. You can't take yourself that serious.
Yeah, maybe that's part of the shift that's happened. And I would say that I'm a limited I have limited knowledge about what the franchise is like, you know, kind of in the middle eight years since I was on from it. But I did watch The Golden Bachelor. Did you happen to watch that?
I did, And I'll be honest, I haven't watched anything since I.
I can't imagine, and I'm in the same boat. I hadn't watched any for such a long time. And then I watched The Golden Batchelor, and at the Golden at least seemed like it had some sincere moments of like, Wow, these older people are here to find love and it kind of had that magic if if I'm being honest, but yes, to respond to kind of what you were saying about the culture and how fun it was on set back then, I yeah, I can imagine.
It was, and I think there was a time when you could protect certain people from themselves. Like there was a person I won't name names. It was not you, I will say that, but there was someone on There was someone on your season, Jillian season, that was a little problematic and they were just kind of dealt with. They said some really inappropriate things and it went away and they went away. That wouldn't happen today.
No, That's what I was gonna say, Wow, man, it makes me fascinated. What you think would happen if all that stuff with He who shall not be named, Yeah.
They would. They would just be out. Everything they said would have been public knowledge. They would have been absolutely crucified for it, and maybe rightfully so. But to us, it was something that didn't drive the story, so it didn't need to be outed and talked about, and so we just let him go on his way. We made sure that Jillian didn't end up with him. That's important, but look, we don't need to ruin his life. He
doesn't need to tarnish the show, et cetera. Let's just go our separate ways, by gods, And that's the way I think the world used to be on a larger scale of you didn't have to stop and then make an example of every single thing. I think socially, you're almost activated to do that now, and that that really changes how you approach every situation. I can't imagine how people have to approach being on a reality show now.
Yeah, I'm going to ask you that if you've seen a IF while you were with a franchise or maybe just in reality TV in general, you know, if there's if there's been a shift from people that just want to use it as a platform to get famous versus bastl or specifically back in the day, social media didn't exist. So we went on to find love, like I'm putting that in Giant Air the listener, you know, like I wonder if that if you have a sense of that, like if it just changed, like.
You know, did I mean, look, I mean it's because you know, look I used to talk about, you know, like what changed in love and dating and all that when you were on the show. I said, Well, when we started in O two one, there was such thing as a blog and that was it, and you really got your news from Entertainment Tonight, People Magazine, US Magazine, those things, and those would come out much later and you would kind of get a snapshot of what's going on,
and that's it, you know. That's you'd go on the tabloid shows and you would hear some things. But yeah, social media didn't change, and you guys, you guys kind of got the best part of it where you didn't go on for social media, but you got social media later. Whereas and then there was that crew that came on for social media, and they crushed it.
I got to know a lot of those guys too well.
I would say the JoJo's of the world beca tilly. I'm trying to think of those that just absolutely have crushed it on social media.
Barstow right, doesn't she have her own platform and show now right?
I think there's yeah, cal yeah, Kayla, Barsta. She has her own thing and definitely benefited from social media. And you know, we used to name people the Bachelor or Bacherette and they would end up with a million or two million followers immediately. Now you know, you might have one hundred thousand, a couple hundred thousand, and it's just you don't move the zeitgeist and you don't move the
needle that much on social media. Which that's a hard thing to sell because one of the things we used to be able to sell was, look, Michael, come on the show, do the things we ask you to do. You're gonna get a lot of residual bump out of this show. And it's probably tough, I'm guessing to cast the show now because you can't promise that what do you remember from the show, Well, like, do you remember
not not from Bachelor? Pad, we'll get to that, because you went on to be on Bachelor Pad, but being on Jillian season of The Bachelorette, you weren't. It wasn't the new freshman year, but it wasn't senior year. I would say you were in the middle kind of sophomore junior year of the show being really good.
Yeah, I think that's fair. Geez, what do I look back at now, Chris? Mostly you know, I was twenty five, which is a toddler in some sense compared to what it feels like to be forty and where I at now.
Your front your frontal lobe wasn't even formed yet.
Yeah. Yeah, to be medically specific, yeah, right, an infant. But you probably can resonate with this too, especially now that I have kids. Like happens when you have kids, and it changes how you look at kind of how you were when you were younger. And obviously we're exaggerating a little bit, but to be more specific about it, when I was twenty five, Chris, you know, like the idea of going on a TV show for love, I
really mean this, I was like a full scent. I was like, I am pretty confident I could find love with this girl. From Canada. So I really, I mean I went into the show, you know, a totally naive, kind of like a puppy. I'd never been a part of a fraternity. I don't know how else to make a comparison, but at night one does feel like what it probably feels like Rush week at a frat house. You're just like good Gop. There's just testosterone exploding off
of the wall. People are drinking heavily. Maybe that's changed now, but back then, back then, there was Timmity, Crickets Chris like you. You couldn't put a drink down without someone giving you another drink, and part of it was like the best. I mean, it was so fun to get to. Man. I can't believe I'm gonna say this about a reality television show, but I really mean it from my lens.
At least at half of those guys Chris were there because they were into Jillion for sure, And definitely half of them were kind of like and some of the guys we've already not mentioned, you know, we're just kind of hag it out at drinking and not that into Jillion. But I at least felt like or the adventures sake of finding love. It was worth it and phenomenal, even though I was kind of the young Frodo Baggins if you don't mind the Lord of the Rings reference, you know,
just kind of what the heck is going on. I didn't kiss her until I had no idea strategically, yeah, how to say the game of the bats arette. But I really did connect with her. I really did think she was like a fun person to hang out with.
She was awesome, She was a good time in a can.
It was the greatest. It was the greatest thing.
It was tougher to do much research and homework back then. I mean you could maybe go on the dark web and find something, but there wasn't a whole lot where you could get online, direct message somebody, text somebody and figure out, Okay, what's the game plan, how does this really work? What are producers going to ask me to do? Et cetera. So there was a naivete and an innocence still,
which made it beautiful. And I agree. I think a lot of people came on for the action, the adventure of the travel and yeah, maybe I will fall in love with this woman who loves hot dogs.
Yes, And I really do mean that, and gosh, look, part of me is a romantic so I just can't help this anyway. I really do like when I watched The Golden Batcher, for example, I really do hope that there are some young kids that go on the show and believe like I used to believe. It sounds like I'm talking about Santa Claus, but that like you know, you can it is just a boy and a girl. It really felt to me at least like it is a person and that's there's gonna be sparks there or not.
At least that part of the magic of the show. I hope that's still there.
Well, that was always the beauty of the show. When people ask me what the it factor was for that show. There was no catch, which we'll get into bacher Pad and that was the biggest issue with bacher Pad as there became a catch. The thing with the Bachler and Bacherette is, at the end of the day, there is, as you said, we'll go notting Hill, you know, a boy standing in front of a girl or vice versa,
depending on the season, and that's it. And you have to I don't care if you're on a beach, if you're on the you know, Zermatt, up in Switzerland or wherever you are. There is this vulnerability in this just fear of oh my gosh, does he like me? Does she like me? And that's beautiful and that's what the at the base of it all is what made the
show so great. And then you know, if you had people that were genuine like yourself and like I think the majority of the cast back then who came in with that innocence of naivete it just made for great television because you could really genuinely go on that ride, whereas now I think you have to dissect Okay, who's the f boy, who's here to play this part? Who's here to play this part? You know, we're just so we're so savvy now because we've watched it for twenty four years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I reflect something back to you, Chris Lee. I don't know how much you got to hear of this, but it's been fifteen years. You can you imagine in the circles that I run with, namely people in the Midwest and the East Coast that don't live in LA but you know, it was like those type of people. Hey, Chris, half of the country from my perspective believes that you created the show and that you are you know what I mean, that you are
like the face of the brain of it. But but what I wanted to reflect back to you specifically is I always felt like, not only did were you genuinely rooting for the love part of it in a way that had nothing to do with a television program, but the part that I probably speak to more often than not is you were also just such a ef and cool guy like you never seemed to us like a I won't speak for all of the guys me, at least you never. We would in the wings be like, Holy,
that's Chris Harrison. Suit is so dope. He looks so good at us, you know, And then when you would hang out with us, you really just instantly were kind of shooting this shit with us. And I've gotten to know some celebrities, you know, with the course of my time now in LA and just the reflection back to you, you were always so cool at being a real the host of one of the biggest reality shows of all time. You just handled it well with a lot of authenticity, and at least again from my len.
I took a lot of pride in the fact that I did enjoy getting to know so many people as one of the benefits of the show is especially early on, like Jillian season actually was the first one. Also, she was a lot of first we had thirty people instead of twenty five, and we added five guys on that season, and so it was fun to get to know everybody. There was this camaraderie, there was this paternal spirit where we all got to hang out, and I used to hang out.
We lived in a bunk house. Do you remember that.
Well, you have to remember back then we hadn't reversed it yet. Jillian still lived in the Bachelor mansion. The guys didn't.
Well, you say it out loud now, doesn't it sound like crazy?
It was really dumb. And I forget exactly what season it was where we flipped it. And then the thirty people stayed in the Bachelor Mansion, and then of course the Bachelor bacherette would come and go, which makes a lot more sense because they can just stay in a hotel, a house anywhere else they need to. Finding a house for thirty people is not easy, and so that was pretty stupid that we didn't figure that out sooner.
You guys built like temporary bousing. Oh yeah, the lot like on the mansion lot. My god.
Yeah, you guys stayed in down what was the uh there was so the Bacheler Mansion that we shot at down this little hill as you go to Canaan Boulevard, which is what goes down. But you know, right in front of the house. If you're ever driving between Agora Hills and Malibu Canyon, that's what you're very findable, Yes, very findable. It's right off Canaan and so right off this right off of Canaan, the house you would actually
see is the photography studio he was. He was a big photographer, and so we would use that house as the bunk house. That's where you guys stayed.
Wow, and a thirty second hilarious story from the bunking. Yeah, there's a guy. I'm just gonna say his name because he's gonna love it. His name was Tanner. Tanner like a foot fetish kind of was his thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, in Dallas. Uh, we're sleeping in the cows. It was you know, June, so it was super hot and in the afternoon or we'd done night one. The next morning we were complaining the producers were like, you, guys, it's like ninety.
Eight degrees so hot, it's like a sweatshot.
So you know, they sent some pas and later that afternoon I was up in the bunkhouse and the top book with Tanner, like getting ready for the Rosery Mooney or something, and one of the producers came up and was like, guys, we got a ton of fans. They're on their way. And Tanner legitimately was like, oh, we already got fans. That is awesome. He thought he thought they were talking about like fans, legit fans our season
as we were taping. He was so excited. Then when they brought up the plastic fans, he was like, oh, that's still awesome. Cool. No girls, though, rat no girl, we got fans already. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
The uh that was also where we started traveling pretty well.
Uh, it's true.
Jillian was Canadian, so we we went up to Canada. I know we were up in damph and we went through cal and y'all went on the uh the Rocky Mountain Express or something like that, and I think we kicked somebody off at one of the stops.
Right, Robbie, do you remember that name and Chris it didn't quite air this way with their shots in the trailer of the season. I cried that day. Legitimately on the he was like, kind of my one of my really good buddies. Yeah, and kicked him off. I didn't see it coming, so I cried about it.
You made it to final five, I think, right.
Yeah, which was again with starting with thirty that's a very big deal. That is a big deal of the Yeah, so hometown.
It got down to Kipton Reid, who ended up breaking Jillian's heart and leaving in Hawaii. And Ed Swaderski.
Yeah, who what where did that? He married someone in Chicago? Wait, but that also didn't go great.
I think they were together, they were together for a little bit. So what was interesting on that season was Jake Pavelka was on your season. Who became Who became the Bachelor? Yeah? And it was interesting because I think we tried. I honestly think we tried to get Read to be the bachelor. He said.
No.
That was one of the early first knows we got. He didn't like being a part of the show. No.
He would daily be like, why don't I know what's going on? At all times? Like someone when my practice that Yeah.
He he he was oddly savvy for the times. I think he was kind of on to the producers of like I get that you're not here for me. I'm out of here. And so he left and he really broke Gillian's heart. That really made her sad, and then I think she ended up with Ed though at the end.
Correct.
And then so that season ends, Jake Pavelka comes out. He's a big hit. Several of the guys go on to what we now know as Bachelor Pad Season one that was the Bachelor and Bacherette had been so big. ABC came to us and said, the summer sucks. That is the doldrums of television. There's nothing on. Can you guys create something those two weeks before real TV starts in the fall, and so we could just promote our fall lineup. It doesn't even have to be good, just figure it out.
That was the pitch you guys to next and to.
Yeah, that was the pitch of like, just put something on TV because ABC just needs something. Yeah, in that summer, in that summer spot to promote the fall lineup.
I had no idea. That was the origin. Fascinating to keep going to me.
Now. It wasn't even this great you know idea. They're like, okay, let's do a game show, and we're just gonna shoot it on the cheap. We shot it at thee at the Mansion when it was in the middle of the summer, brutally freaking hot. But that's how that came to be, was just hey, we need something on ABC. Let's you know,
they were better than reruns. So we thought, a quarter of a million dollars, this will be a game show where they're trying to find love, but at the end there's going to be a prisoner's dilemma where there's money on the line.
So Survivor type of game mechanics.
Survive had been on the air, you know, a look before us and I'm trying to take him by then, Amazing Race was probably on.
That's true, and you had real world road rules challenges as well, at least in the zeitgeist that you guys were stealing some kind of game show concepts from.
And Bachelor Pad one was kind of weird. We had to hire. They're like, well, this is a game show now, So we brought on standards and practices and we brought on this different producer. I forget his name, but he was more No, he was from Red Road Rules, I
think maybe. And it was one of those guys though, And I'm glad I'm not going to say his name because it turned out he was not very good at what he does and so, but he was there because he had done game shows before and we didn't do game So he's like, I'm gonna help you guys, because there's certain rules you have to follow because there's a quarter of a million dollars on the line.
Chris, this is what I wanted. I should have talked to this guy the thing that I text you about about Bachelor Pad three by the way ahead, but this he You're right, he probably either got got fired got and it might have been because of what the thing I text you about.
Well, he got fired on Bachelor Pad one, and so Bachelor by the time we came in bacher Pad two, the producers are like, ah, we can just do this ourselves. We're just gonna run this game show and do it ourselves and try and create more love and more couples or whatever. So you come in on season two right of bacher Pad.
Yeah, So the machine was a little bit more well oiled. From my perspective, it seemed like the contest were a little bigger.
Yeah, Bacheler Pad one was a little messy. We're still trying to figure it out, throwing it against the wall to see what stuck. Bachelor Pad two were like, Look, we got to lean back into what we are, which is a reality show. It's about love, it's about breakups, it's about all that. But the problem was, to your point, there was still a quarter of a million dollars on the line and you game. You and Holly Durst won
that season. Yeah, And the whole premise, just to catch people up, is you would kind of couple up towards the end of the show. You would have to find a partner, and that partner and you would go to the end and win challenges or lose challenges, and that at the end decide between the two of you, would you keep the two hundred fifty thousand, would you split the two hundred fifty thousand, And depending on what your
partner said, that determined where the money went. So I think so the final four was Michelle, Money and Graham. But yes, yeah, good who I honestly I was shipping them. I wanted them to be a couple so bad.
Oh, I thought you meant shipping them to win, and I was like, well, no, no.
I wanted them to be a couple because I love Michelle Money and I love Graham very much. I was like, those two would be great together.
And on the show it seemed like they're honestly like they really were, yeah, working out, and then it kind of quickly fizzled right after the show.
In and now flash forward, Michelle Money is married to the President's Cup Captain Mike Weir.
Yeah, I know. It's one of my favorite things when I'm watching the PGA tour to be like, that's it's so cool that Michelle's married to that guy.
So what do you remember then about Bachelor Pad?
A almost completely different experience, i'd say than the rat right, Like I guess a, I don't know ilse to say this. And even though it was way less back then, there was fifteen minutes of fame that came after the bats Arette And remember I wasn't on the first season of Batser Pad and then the second season. You know, A, geez, this is dating my all going really back into the vault. But I had a music career at that point that
I was kind of touring the country. It was called the Love Like This Tour, and I had a relationship. I was with Holly. I was engaged before batser Pad two aired, and then we broke up, and then they asked us both to be on this show. So, my god, if I had set the table well enough, you can imagine going into batser Pad two. How my frame of reference for what it was like batstt was like, let's fall in love and go on adventures.
With my ex fiance.
Yeah. Batser Pad two was like, oh god, okay one. I honestly wanted to, you know, just make it far on the show for the sake more fifteen minutes of fame. That sounds like I just sold my soul out, but you know, like I was aware you're also paying.
I think we paid you guys a little snipen now be on bacher Pad, Yes, and winning two.
And fifty grand like thumbs up. And you know, I'm a game designer, actually, Chris, so I'm competitive. So I was thinking about meta game how to win this son of movie like I wanted to do it and more specifically, and this is all the stuff that aired on the season if you watch it, and if not, hold on to something. Uh, Holly and I's relationship was rather unresolved, if I'm being honest. You know, we broke up out
two weeks our engagement. We were engaged to be married two weeks before we stepped into the mansion, and you know, somewhat naively, both of us at twenty six, twenty seven. At that time, I think we were like, make ahead of it, yea, and that won't matter, but one two skip if you Within three days, I was back in love with her basically completely, you know what I mean. And she had found another man named Blake, who was a dentist who was the most handsome guy probably ever right,
and they hit it off right away. And still, you know, honestly, we'll give Holly credit for this. She also, genuinely, I think, felt confused about me too, like we had just broken up, and so we kissed a few times and went on a few dates kind of in the first half of the show and then the second half of the show. Not only did she continue to fall in love with dentist Blake, they got engaged before the finale of that Dad when Holly and I we continue to win challenges,
we remained a couple. And then when it all aired, Chris, can you take me by like you get me back to that studio? What that felt like? Everyone, especially you, like in somebodys I was even mad at you, Chris. I was like, everyone knew that Blake Holly got engaged off camera. Guess who didn't know? You? I didn't know, which is how I'm smiling about it, because it's the best television.
Well, that's the thing is, I would say, you just took the words of your mouth. It was the best of times. It was the worst of times because it was the best of times, and that you can't, gosh, it's so impossible to create TV that good. I mean, because it was so genuine. And that's the difference is now what you see a lot of times on a lot of shows is so manufactured. It's so heavy handedly produced. And while we did produce somewhat around you, guys, we
are producing around you. Y'all were providing us that guttural feeling of love and heartbreak and all those things. And you know, the dastardly deed was keeping it from you and surprising you with it on the show. But what had happened was real. She had fallen in love with Blake and vice versa, and they really are this couple and they really did get married together. Yeah, that's what I mean. They are married and they are together, and
they have a beautiful family. They have great teeth. And then there was Michael and I and you didn't give yourself an no credit that America had really fallen in love with you, this breakdance instructor that we had gotten to know on Jillian season. That was your title. You had gotten around for that year and really become a fan favorite. And people were really upset at Holly for falling in love with Blake because we love Michael. You know,
we're team Stagliano. It was really this amazing confluence of things that happened naturally, and then we took advantage of it. For sure.
I want to go back thirty seconds. There was something to Chris about at the end of the season. At the finale when it all went down and Holley and I won, we chose to split the money or we shared the money. The two hudred and fifty, so at least my wallet got happy.
I lost the girl, but you got one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars.
Yes, but wait, you don't even know this. We split the money with Graham and Michelle. We literally wrote them that was night two.
You know what. I forgot that that happened.
I know it was so illegal, and we did it anyway like time t We couldn't. You weren't allowed to do that, like VI, the VI the laws of that. You couldn't agree, but we totally anyway.
Anyway anyway did wait, did producers know that or did Michelle just Michelle? Oh, Graham knew that.
No, producers didn't know that. We even and then all four of us sent twenty five hundred dollars to Ella. Do you remember her? She was the single mom? Yes, bro this Yeah, they get a house and we all sent her house. I know. And it's part of what I mean too about like actually this will segue nicely
into what I was going to get to Chris. I at least felt like I truly made friends kind of with the I mean honestly some of the crew too, Like the camera guys was hilarious, the light of guys, the sow guys, all those guys were so fun so
and the producers and the contestants. Obviously, it really did kind of feel like, man, I don't know, we all went through this big thing together, and part of what the blind side of everyone keeping the engagement from me felt like real time, like I don't alwa to subscribe it is it was I was almost like, wait, so are these people my friends or not? Do you know what I mean?
Like Alan made you question everything specifically.
Yeah, and look, fifteen years later, you can obviously I'll look back and just say, everyone's just doing their job and trying to get a good television show. And Mike, I was kind of a puppy walking into things, not exactly just leading with my heart. So it's all love for everyone, but I do want to it is fun, at least to rehash out loud with you fifteen years later, the experience of being duped in a way that made man, at least, for whatever it's worth, phenomenal television.
I mean, you think about what the what we just encapsulated. That's that was the beauty of our show. We had a couple that had fallen in love. They met on our show, they got engaged, they broke up two weeks later. We put them in a house together in again, and then they kind of start dating again.
And we're and we're partners, and yeah.
Your partner's in the game and it's on again, off again, and she falls in love with another contestant and they get engaged and it all comes to be at the grand finale.
I mean it's too much. You couldn't.
Yeah, you like, if I wrote that now, you'd be like, come on, dude, this You've gone a bridge too far. That's stupid. Yeah, And instead we just call it Michael's life.
Yeah, and I'm just alone living in an underpass in the valley now. No, that I've recovered fantasticly.
Before we get to your life, you actually you you really became so popular and honestly, I hate to say it, because you were the lovable loser in that one and that relationship. The funny thing is, you won Bachelor Pad, but people saw you lose in love, so we talked about you as the bachelor. You didn't become the bachelor, but we wanted you back on Bachelor Pad again because everyone adored you so much. So now you come back on Bachelor Pad three. Very few contestants have been a
part of as many shows as you have. So now you're back for a third season. Third year, you're twenty seven, twenty eight years old.
Do you remember the twist for the third season? It was I think brilliant, well also a train wreck, which is its own type of brilliance.
Which twist was this.
It wasn't batter Pad one and two was nine guys and nine girls that were on the show. Batcher Pad three was half just fans people that had not been on the show, yes, and half people that had been. So it was kind of like putting a hat on a hat.
Do you know that it was a terrible idea, You go, I'll be honest, until you just reminded me. I forgot we invited on the show.
It was wild. It was the dynamic, is you know. I remember kind of the cast members being like, oh, so we're the celebrities obviously now of the show, which is just you know, and then the fans were like, not really, you're all kind of literally know what knows who you want? It tried to be famous and then the challenges you know against you told.
Me, I do remember. There was kind of a cool, you know, kind of a cool girls high school lunch room feel to the show of cast versus non cast one hundred.
Do you remember who led the charge? Do you remember her name?
No?
Rose, Erica Rose Mean Girls, Mean Girls fantastically.
And by the way, the great thing about that was every now and then, and I don't remember them well enough now, but one one of them became cool enough to kind of make the leap to the cast side.
Yeah, quite successfully.
Yeah, and they were like, Okay, you're cool, you're different, but they're still they're still losers.
Yeah, it was. It was the shallowest I think the show got.
Oh yeah, on a lot of that was there were some bad challenges that season. There was a lot of bad stuff that season.
Yes, there was a you had to hold trays of teacups as a race because they were supposed to do the kissing challenge, but someone got hurpies. That is an actual story. So they were like, we can't medically do it, So what's our game that we need.
To do where we won't pass around an std.
Oh my gosh.
In that that season, so that had kind of a controversial ending. You probably remember it different than I do. Uh yeah, well, I just remember obviously there. You know, that season I think was heavily produced, I felt, and that was the last season of bacher Pad we did before we just went to Bachelor in Paradise because what we learned was inherently the show was about money and the Bachelor and Bacherette's never been about money, and so we wanted to make it like our producing instincts were,
let's make it about love. But there was this game show, so you had to service that, and so there was a there was a battle going on between do we care about the game show? And I was like, well, there's a quarter million dollars you have to but I don't know if we did a good enough job. And I think according to you, we did not do a very fair job of playing the game.
For the third season. Yeah, well mine, my gripe is on a different level, Like it's on a very nerdy game mechanic level, and I can say it pretty concisely. The the game is dependent on a community votings voting system where people go in and bloat. They vote blindly, so no one else gets to see the person that they vote right.
To kick off the island, just like Survivor, Just like Survivor. Not that we ripped off Survivor completely.
Not completely legally, but just.
I quit saying the tribe is spoken at least.
Yeah. In the third season, for some reason, some producer allowed Erica Rose to go into the voting room with I think Chris Bukowski, which breaks the mechanics of the game because then Chris showed Erica that he wasn't voting for her, which is the lie that I told her because Chris was part of my alliance and that's what I was trying to set up. So when Erica came to me and said, well, I thow that Chris didn't vote me off, I was.
Like, how did you see that?
He saw it, and he was like, she said, well, they let me go with the voting group. And again I don't know. I couldn't. I don't remember where you were, if you were like in the wings or watching your by, but I literally put my hand up like on camera. It didn't air, but in front of the CA I was like, hey, I'm really confused. Eric is saying that she went into the voting room. That's obviously she wasn't allowed to do that, right, And then a Lawn was like, you know you see them go like hit up, yeah,
And then they called like lawyers. They woke some guy up, but like two in the morning, they drove down, they stopped filming, and then they're like, okay, okay, okay, So there's been Do you remember any of this, Chris, No, No, it's fascinating.
So I was not involved in any of this or the conversations.
Well, as you can probably imagine, a they've got rules in place so that contestants can't get aft out.
Of will you have standards and practices when you do a game show. It's different than you know, like Survivor is a game show, Dancing with the Stars, it's a game, and so there's a game element. So you have lawyers that are just standards and practices. They're there to watch the game and you have to adhere to those rules.
Yeah. Yeah, And this is an example of not The one specific line in the contract that I read was like producers can't directly interfere with the results of voting right, And Erica is like, Allah, oh this I can't. Five years ago, no, ten years ago, I couldn't say anything. I think I get arrested, But now I could just say it's still so good. Erica Rose was like, Allah, just told me to go into the room with Chris. I don't And I was like, what do you mean
Alan told you to do that? Like, he can't tell you to do that because that would give you knowledge that other contestants don't have, which is the enormous event that's direct leader. So again they brought the lawyers out. I really did. I feel like I made a good enough fuss that I was like, I feel like this is very illegal.
Yes, we got to rectify that.
So the head lawyer was like, Michael, just shut up, and I was like, all right.
Okay, that's our answer.
Yeah, and you know, like honestly, kind of the game was over. And so if you watch the batch that three Rose ceremony, would I get kicked off? You can kind of see it on everyone's face. Everyone's kind of like, so what is this all legal? Or like what is Michael going home? Like what do we It was so uncomfortable and bizarre and yeah, then Rachel was my partner and she was like, so you're going home and but aren't we in love? And I was like I don't think so. And now I'm.
Leaving, like we're definitely not in love now sideways. Yeah, it was such an of course, it ended with the prisoners dilemma where the winner he kept it himself.
Yeah, Nick, ye baller move and Rachel, my partner, went on to win. And then Nick capped the money for himself.
Or over and yeah, and I think they had an agreement and then he yeah, good again, good TV. But I think you know that inherently where we figured out, Okay, it's we got to stop. We got to stop the game show element. Let's just create Bachelor in Paradise. So we took a summer off and then came back with Paradise.
And now and it's still on, right, isn't Paradise still on?
It was not on last summer due to unfortunate circumstances of ratings, but they they claim that it will be back this summer.
Okay, I won't. We shall see, but it's interesting And now I actually I'm curious about this too, Chris. What do you you have a production company? Right? Well, again, I know you doing anything bats related obviously.
Yeah, yea, Lauren and I have a production company.
And uh, are you doing yauty your scripted or feature? What are you guys trying to.
We signed an overall deal with Merritt Street Media, which is Doctor Phil's new network out of Dallas.
Uh.
He created a new network and we've been Yeah, so we're in Austin and so we've been working with doctor Phil and his network and it's great. It's just it's so refreshing because he's just you know, the business has changed so much, you know, because you're in the business now.
And we'll talk about that in a second, but you know, when you're pitching shows, you're talking to you're talking to a lot of tech people and you're talking to accountants now instead of creatives who understand the business, and you're trying to pitch them a show and they're just saying some really inane things and they don't You're like, are
we even speaking the same language? And so it was nice to go into a creative meeting with someone like doctor Phil who's been in the business so long on both sides of the camera of producer and host of like, oh, I get what you're saying. Okay, let's go do this and this is how we're going to get it done.
Yeah.
So it's been really refreshing. It's been it's been fun. You have you're not break dancing anymore. You're not singing.
Sometimes her career is over. Yeah, that all ended.
Little known secret. The Stagliano brothers and I did play in a couple soccer tournaments together.
That's right, good memory. Did you know Steve played semi pro two out here in La.
Yeah he was. I was not going to say he was the better of the Stagliano brothers of something.
No, don't say that on air.
No, you and I talked about. I mean, god, it may have been a couple of years ago. Now when you're like, I have this idea of what I want to do, well, you've actually made this happen. So explain to us, like the origin story, and tell us what you're up to.
Yeah, Chris, I don't even know where to begin. I suppose twelve years ago, after all the reality stuff ended, I I hard pivoted into screenwriting that I just felt this big old pull to do that. Honestly, I'd been a writer my whole life, but once I started screenwriting, it just there was a passion there that I knew wasn't gonna let me go. And it's been twelve years. I've written about forty scripts now, Like I don't know
ten pilots, probably thirty features. Most of them are adaptation based, so I get hired from producers to take books and adapt them into screenplays, into few films. And yeah, yeah, going from reality TV to scripted content and trying to get projects off the ground. I mean, you know, because you have been to do it. It's a beating. It's it's a ah gosh, Chris, It's both a beating, and it's probably the thing I've been the most passionate about in my life outside of my boys and my kids.
I probably should have stopped a long time ago. Actually, let me be really really clear about this. In twelve years, this is so embarrassing, but it's fun to give people an insight into what it's like to be a screenwriter, I think, and make it in the entertainment industry. Last twelve years as a screenwriter, I've made ninety thousand dollars. That's obviously almost no money at all, But Or and I just I can't stop, like, I can't stop doing it.
I just love it so much, so passionately. And you know, I have several projects optioned and in various stages of development trying to get off the ground, and most recently just published a show that I wrote and created with with a team of people that is out now that I'm honestly more excited about than all of the forty on the scripts.
That is, Is this the podcast The Forgotten King?
Yeah, so this is the one I text you about. Yeah, it's called The Forgotten King.
And it just came out I think I think September twenty sixth it debuted, it came out, that's correct. I assume we can we find this where all podcasts are found.
Yeah, let me just straight up plug it. So it's The Forgotten King. You can find it on Apple and on Spotify really anywhere that you listen to podcasts, and on YouTube. And then the socials are TFK series. And the thirty second plug is if you like Game of Thrones, House of Dragons, Lord of the Rings, even Harry Potter, if you like those major fantasy properties. I have been studying them intimately for a decade, more than a decade, and this is my attempt at trying to give fans
of that stuff. Huh, next bite, the next taste?
Is this a story game? Uh?
Yes and no right now.
But explain explain to us because that's the kind of the genius of what you're trying to do here is is create a story game, but explain what that is and how you're creating that of for podcasts or for television.
Sure, So, my brother and I have a studio called Story Games. It's a gaming and entertainment studio, and we're trying to be the first studio that has scripted content that has a relationship with gaming content, and in that the story is connected. So the story that you watch in the show is connected to the story that you play in the game. And The Forgotten King is the ip that we're you using to do that. So our first installment of the story of the Forgotten King is
this audio drama. In case it isn't obvious for the listener, Making an animated fantasy series, which is the highest aspiration of what we want to do, is vanely expensive. Making an audio drama is pretty low cost but very high quality. We're really proud of, you know, the sound design and
the scoring. We had a whole team put it together, and the hope is to use that to you know, get enough of a crowd and awareness so that one day we can make it, turn it, adapt it into a fantasy series that then has a relationship with gaming content, which again is just kind of revolutionary and we're super passionate about it. We've been doing it for about eighteen months.
We had about relations And by the way, for those of you that you didn't keep up in the tabloids, Michael did end up finding love. You and Emily have been married ten eleven years.
Yeah.
I was just saying, because the kids are what you've had your Hunter Bowen, I think twenty sixteen was when you I think when you had your first kid, yeah Bowen, yep, yeah, And so that, like you said, life changes so much. Your perspective changes, being a dad now being married for so long, it is amazing you look back and fifteen years ago you're single and you're twenty five and you're
on reality TV. To now the things you're responsible for, the things you care about are just it's so exponentially different.
Chris. It's I if I did anything right going on the show and having time in the spotlight, it was using that to find Emily. She's the greatest thing that has ever happened in my life, you know. And not to get super romantic about it at the end here, but the twenty six year old, the twenty five year old that went on the batsurette to find that little part of me that was like, yeah, yeah, sure, this is a way to the greatest human to marry. Ever, honestly,
I did get that. I did. It took a while, some bumps and bruises, a lot of heartbreak, but Emily is to this day. And for those of you who have been married for more than ten years, you know how hard it is to say I am crazy about Emily. She is. She's she's the best. And her two boys, you know, are the best obviously as well. So yeah, it's it's been a it's been it's been a good journey.
What are the boys into these days where they're just what eight nine years old and six seven, six and.
Seven seven right now? Bowen turned eight tomorrow, but they're six and seven, okay, and they're into soccer and basketball and jiu jitsu. And I'm a blue belt in jiu jitsu.
By the way, that that is awesome. I you know, I know my son got into martial arts jiu jitsu. I mean, I can't say it wasn't a thing back then, but jiu jitsu is now it's become such a bigger thing. Obviously, the discipline has been around for many, many, you know, centuries, but it's become more commonplace now. And if I could do it all over again, I would have gotten involved
in that. But he went through the martial arts and karate and became a black belt, and that discipline and the controlling of his own body and emotions and all that did wonders for him.
I could not recommend it more, especially for kids that struggle with you know, stress, anxiety, self confidence. If they leads the stuff, yeah, the impact is pretty immediate, I'd say for kids, yep.
And it's funny. And I think this in our in this day and age, in our society, like there is there's so much anxiety, and there's so much we worry about so much, and I think we treat people with kid gloves so much. I think going the opposite direction of the physicality of jiu jitsu, and it's not that you're trying to hurt somebody, because you're not. Same thing with karate, and what Joshua was learning it was really
controlling his emotions and controlling being in this storm. But being able to control that is so huge and it really does convey to every other aspect of your life.
That was incredibly well described. Yeah, the mental jiu jitsu is a physical martial art. Obviously, you're grappling, You're trying to submit your opponent to the point where they're like if you if I don't tap right now, I'll either pass out or your break my arm. Like, so let's say fight. I mean that that's yeah, very much the table stakes. But learning how to be calm in that environment. The application of that goes well beyond just rolling on
a jiu jitsu Matt, you know what I mean. You can apply that to work in life, and it's a big deal. Yeah, and all martial arts, I think, Yeah, that mental side is it is great for your kids and being just being involved in sports and all that.
It's it's I don't know if you've noticed. I'm not going to call you an old dad, but you're forty, so you I I just think that what I was a bit younger when my kids were your kids age, and I think I cared about certain things too much the wrong way.
You know.
It's like, you know, you're too into sports, You're too into It's like I didn't have a good grasp of what's really important.
Emily and I, I think are trying to keep this lens of what are boys good at and passionate about? And how do we foster them into that. I think it's very easy to especially as the dad, I feel like, say, you're gonna do this.
You're gonna play football for the Green Bay Packers.
I am a Packers fan. Did you know that? So?
Yes, that's a little fan. Everybody knows you're a Packers fan. Brett Favre knows you're a Packers fan.
And trying to Yeah, just both emotionally. I think you know, as dad, I don't know if i'd say our generation growing up, our dads really knew how to emotionally support kids. When I say that my.
Dad, I don't remember my dad as a child. Going, Chris, how do you feel right now? How does that make you feel?
Now? It was just this is how I feel, and you deal with that.
Dad, I just want to emote right now. Can I just tell you my emotions?
Do you feel like though with your son? Now, Chris, you do get to have a dialogue that's like, hey, I care about your.
Opinion one hundred percent. I started again you are. This is why you have to kind of it's important to when there is a and my parents are wonderful, my dad, both my mom and dad and God are still alive and they're great parents. But you talk about breaking the cycle of something, you know, my dad was you know, I grew up in Texas in the seventies and eighties. My it's my way or the highway, Yes, ma'am, Yes, sir, why is it this way? Because that's what I just said.
He hug and kiss you started to get real.
My parents love I always say love was spoken in my house. We all said I love you. We definitely touched. We like we would hug each other to this day, we hug each other say I love you. That part was very advanced. I have to give my dad credit my mom. My mom is from a Jewish family, which I kind of Likento Italians. They're very touchy feely, were very We're very emotional, so you know, we talk with
our hands and it's a part of a tribe. My dad was not a part of that and was very Texan and very kind of cowboy redneck, but he did get that love gene. Maybe you got it from my mom and her family.
How much of them did you pick up, Chris, like when you think about yourself, A lot of.
It, A lot of I very much from the beginning told my kids I love them. I still do. My son is I give him a lot of credit to this day. You know, even in those awkward years, he would come up and give us a hug in the middle of the lacrosse team or you know, in a crowd. And so I love that stuff when I see I think it is so important. And I have met people along the way who their parents never said I love you and never spoke that out loud, and not having
that is it's hugely detrimental. I think you have to speak that into existence. You have to hug. Physical touch is a huge thing for kids. And so yeah, luckily I did find early on I was my way or the highway with my son, and you know, I would spank him and just like my dad did, and I just I know, there was this epiphany one time of like, I'm not achieving the results that I want here. I don't even know why I'm doing this anymore. And I started,
you know, changing my ways. And that's it's growth, it's evolution, it's learning. But it goes to show with anything in society is you have to give people the space to learn and grow. And I don't judge my dad for who he was. He was a great dad and he I think he created a good man. I'm a gentleman, but I think I've done a better job.
I don't know, maybe this I hope this doesn't sound like a cop out, but like times were different back then, Like I think as a community of like our brotherhood of men and fathers, people just thought Michael.
To act like they weren't different is doing it a great injustice, and it's doing the people a great It would be doing my dad a great injustice or his granddad, you know, Like I've talked to my dad about his mom dying, and I'm like, well, what did you and granddaddy, that's his dad. What did y'all talk about after that? I've never talked about it, Michael, they never had a discussion.
Part of your does part of you, you know, your heart breaks for that, or or is part of you like I wonder if it's because they said everything that needed to be said before.
No, it's because they didn't know how to communicate. It's because they just didn't do that back then, and now look maybe.
Why they were less stressed back then.
Maybe, but look maybe the look the pendulum swung. I was a latch key kid and then the pendulum swings, and now we're helicopter parents. I think we may need to get back to not caring a little bit more, you know, and giving kids a little more grope. But it always finds a way. Are how do you find you? Do you find yourself being a helicopter parent?
No, I'm just I'm gonna lean on Emily again here and give for the praise. I think Emily has figured out how to be a great parent, and then I kind of lean on that. And honestly, Chris, you probably can remember this from my days as a breakdance instructor on a reality time So.
How many times you say the exit a lot? I?
You know, I'm I'm the fun dad. I act like a princess and then a transformer and I throw them in the pool. I beat the crap out of them, you know what I mean? Like, I am I'm that and though and Emily's the love and the comfort and the hey emotional support, and I've tried to do that as well, but especially because they're dudes. I feel like I'm also much more the disciplinarian. Like when I walk in the room, I don't really need to say anything.
Especially family is like Dad, he's coming in here. You know, I'm kind of the I lay down the law a little bit more, which which feels good. And then to answer you directly, the helicoptery thing. One of our sons, Hunter was developmentally delayed and had you know, speech and ot. He actually just graduated like a week ago, which I'm telling you was like I got the fucking party basically, so happy graduated. Actually it's a really big deal anyway.
But because of that, I felt like we were very involved. Like his i EP individualized education program and Emily took most of that way, but yeah, I drove him all over the place. So I feel very involved in that sense of the world, but not like a we still cut fruit small. Maybe that's a hell. There's still things that.
No, it's look the two things I always say, you can be as a parent involved in their life and love them. Yeah, look, there's a lot of thing. There's a lot of things around there, but you know they're gonna they're gonna do things around you and without you whatever. But if you're involved in their life, you know who their friends are, you know what they're up to, you know what's going on, and you love them. It seems to find a way.
And put them in physical combat with other kids.
It's a lost art. I think there was a big generation that kind of went through where we're like, you know, no, no fisticuffs, no rough stuff. No, you know, it's absolutely you know, no tackling in doing jiu jitsu. I you know, it's funny I have, but I feel like it's an.
Old man's Yeah, yeah, calling an old man. But most of the guys in my gym are older than me by so I know.
Joe Rogan is massively involved in it. Russell Brand is a huge jiu jitsu fame.
Watch a lot of their content.
Yeah, and they're really into it. And I think it's a great I think it's a wonderful discipline. I feel like if I get into it now, I'm just gonna get my ass kicked.
No, you're so long, it's the opposite. Actually, well, I'm sorry. It depends on the gym. You should if you do check it out.
Oh good, here comes the Bachelor. Guy. You're gonna beat his ass.
You will have a stigma for sure walking in. Actually, honestly, after or a few of the guys at my gym were like, you know that, we know who you are, right, And I was like, no, I would have no. I have been fun.
We've had fun pounding you reality boy. But yeah, yeah, Michael, I am so glad we caught up my friend Chris.
It's hard to know what to say. This really meant a lot. I feel like I should just you know, I reached out to you to be on your show, which is like the most uncool, washed up reality star thing you can do. I do thank you. It was so cool.
Right up until that point, you were better than JP Rosenbaub, But now you just flew it.
It was right there.
Yeah, we are right there. Really though, one of the great things about this show, and I say it all the time, is that I have this group of friends that I've met and it was only because of this show. These people came into my life for a reason a season, but many of them have stayed and you are one of those. And actually, your brother, who wasn't even a part of the show, has been a part of my life. And that's a wonderful thing. So I appreciate you taking the time and wish you nothing but the best.
It truly was my pleasure, Chris. I have nothing but good things to say, and we'll continue to just really be a fan of yours. Buddy. It meant a lot to have me on.
Love you and I'll talk to you soon, all right, buddy, take care, Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most dramatic pod ever, and make sure to write us a review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you next time.