Predicting Your Divorce

Hey, everyone, thanks for coming back and coming along this journey with me. Like I mentioned in the previous episodes, I'm in the middle of a divorce. The end of my marriage played out on reality TV, which really did add an extra layer that's already difficult and a painful process. As I found myself deciding to end my marriage, I realized that I really didn't have a clue about the divorce process. So I'm super excited for our guest today because I have so many questions and I'm sure this

Hi Dennis, Hey Michelle, how are you good to meet you? Good to meet you.

I'm so excited and I've been watching you for years. I love I think you're so insightful and everything I've seen on social media is incredible.

You're very knowledgeable in what you do.

Thank you so much. I'm glad to be on the show. It'll be a good opportunity for us to chat about the process.

Absolutely, so I kind of want to start from the very beginning. You know, most people when they get married, they don't plan on getting divorced. So what is that first thing someone should do when they start contemplating leaving their spouse.

I always tell people when you utter those words for the first time, I want a divorce, or threaten the divorce, or you're having an argument back and forth and that thought even crosses your mind, that's the point at which you really need to, you know, step back and I think be really thoughtful about the decision, because clearly it's something you're contemplating and it's a huge decision to make. Not that I'm discouraging people from doing it, but really

Absolutely, And for myself, you know, I did have friends that were in the divorce process, so it was helpful for me. They recommended attorneys, But I feel like if you don't have friends who are in the same boat as you, there's just so much there's just so much information out there, Like what do you look for when you're trying to find the right divorce attorney.

That's a hard one. I think choosing the right lawyer can be one of the most difficult decisions you'll make, especially right out of the gate. But I think, look, there's a couple of tips that I would have in that regard. I think, certainly read reviews, Certainly consume as much information as you can that's out there, because right now we're at a very unique point in time in that there's so much free information out there about navigating

The good lawyers.

Are gonna make you feel like you're in the right place, and you'd be surprised. Trust your gut, you'll know.

I feel the same way.

I interviewed a couple lawyers and I just, you know, somebody who understood me, and I connected with them, and I just felt like they would really push for me. That's who I ended up going with.

Here's an important piece about that, Michelle.

Think about this.

You interviewed a few lawyers. That's a really important tip right there. Make sure you don't go into a lawyer's office like, oh, I'm gonna find this lawyer, this one looks good, I'm gonna choose this one today. Don't go into it in that way. Interview a few lawyers and see where you feel comfortable.

Absolutely, And I think I actually learned the wrong the hard way. I learned the hard way because initially we tried working with a mediator and we didn't ask any questions and we just kind of found one and hired her, and it just was not a good person for us to work with.

I tell people when I do consultations, I say, after I do a consultation with a client, I'll say, I want you to go home and think about this, and I want you to call us back if you feel like we're a good fit for you. And that speaks volumes anybody that's trying to like, Oh, don't worry about it, I'll take care of it.

I've got it all settled for you. I've got y'all to get y'all taken care of.

Be cautious about those sort of approaches and those types of personalities in either divorce mediation or in divorce law.

Yeah, I agree with you.

And so I didn't know anything about a mediator, And so what do you know, if somebody can't afford an attorney, what do you recommend.

I wholeheartedly believe in the divorce mediation process.

I really do.

I think it's something that should work for most couples, not all most, And I'll put a little asterisk next to that, it's not you know, mediation can take on multiple different forms, right. It can be two parties working with a mediator, It can be two parties with their own lawyers working with a mediator, or it can also be the lawyers taking a large role and really being involved in representing their clients in the context of the

Uh.

And then you just need to figure out which which you know, system, which which type of mediation works best

I didn't know that. So you could have both an attorney and a mediator.

You can and the situations that we typically do. So we have two certified divorce mediators here, I'm one of them. We have multiple divorce attorneys, so we deal with every type of scenario in terms of in the context of mediation.

We do that.

We've also been the mediator where there's lawyers. Each party has their own lawyer and we're the mediator in the middle. So I do think that tends to be the more thorough approach. It is a little bit more costly, but I do think it's worth it. It's, like I said, complexities in your case where you feel like it's very important to have a lawyer representing your interests, and yet you really want to try to, you know, just get a fair resolution and reach an agreement together.

I know it's a really broad question, but like I had no idea going into a divorce, like, what can the timeline be like realistically?

I mean, you know, it's funny I get this question all the time and I usually tell people my fastest, my quickest divorce that we've ever completed here was sixty days start to finish. So that's from the date they came into the office and sign a retainer agreement until the date we had a judgment of divorce in hand. So but that's like hyper speed. And that was a situation where it's straightforward, limited assets, not a lot of complexities with kids, and the parties came in and they said, hey,

But you do have them.

A judge, you know, you change judges in your case because the end of their term comes up, lawyer dies or they change lawyers. And those cases are cases that have pended for years, you know. In addition to obviously there's motions back and forth and people are arguing about the you know, the silliest things. So I think with divorces. It's one of those things where it can be as short as as possible, say sixty days, it can also

Yeah, because I can say, even for my mental health, like it's very taxing to constantly get emails and try to find information and don't like I can't even imagine not having a lawyer or some guidance.

It's a tough process.

And again I think for us as the lawyers. I want to be your legal expert. Obviously, I'm so familiar with every facet of the divorce process in that I've done it for twenty five years, from everything for the most simple divorce to the most complex, you know, acrimonious, multimillion dollar construction company divorce. But I want to be your lawyer. I don't want to be your counselor, and

And something I didn't know, Like I've always heard the term before, but it's never really discussed, you know, prenups. And recently I even learned about post once you're married. Once you're married, that can be very helpful. I wish I had more information about that. And it's like you kind of get scared, like you're getting married to somebody. The last thing you're thinking about is like, hey, let's do a prenup, right, But what do you think about prenups.

And listen, I think prenups in a lot of ways get a bad rap. I mean, if you watch the content that I put out there, I've spent twenty five years handling divorce cases. The best way for me to help people is take that twenty five years of experience for people and work backwards.

Okay, what could we have.

Done to help us either through the process or to help us land in a better relationship or even keep that relationship intact? And I think, I think you know prenups is one of the things, and it's not for the reasons that you know. The reason why I'm pro pren up is not for the reasons people think I'm pro prene up as much for the fact that it's transparency at the outset as anything else. So think of it like this, Before you get married, don't you want

Absolutely, and talk to me about how people change during divorce and can even be unrecognizable.

Right, Yeah, it's funny because.

You got people at their worst.

One hundred percent out there worth. So a couple of a couple of things I'll share with you on that point. I think you know, I heard this saying the other day, and I think it's one hundred percent true. The person you divorce is not the person you married.

They're a different person.

And I think that's true not only because people you've all when they change over time, and they also can get nasty when the divorce process you know, comes on, But I think you know also because in those sorts of circumstances, you know, they they just change over time.

So I think.

It's just important when you're choosing someone to dedicate your life to. When we keep get going back to you know, like rewind, like, how do we start from a good point in these circumstances?

Uh?

And I always tell people like, if you're dating somebody, take a look at how they treat their worst enemy. Take a look at how they treat someone who makes them mad.

How do they react.

Are they the type of person that's going to chase down somebody in a road race situation and go to kick their windshield in? I mean, is this the sort of person because you want to prepare for what is this person going to be like in the worst possible circumstance.

That is such great advice.

That is amazing because I remember even with my ex, like I loved him so much, and I saw how he treated people when they did him wrong or he was unhappy and it wasn't good. You know, his first thought was like I want to sue you. I want to get revenge. And I never thought of it like I could one day be that person.

You could one day be on the other end of it. So I'll give you a perfect, perfect example in my life. They're a handful of people's people in a circumstance that I dealt with recently who went far out of their way to do wrong to me and wrong to my kid. Right, But now I see them on a regular basis, and I say Am I gonna harbor animosity towards this person. Am I gonna dedicate energy to go after this person? Or am I gonna say, you know what, what's in

Absolutely, and that is I think one of the best advices I've ever heard because it happened to me, and you know in the beginning, you just don't think like that. And I feel like looking at it first, like worse comes to worse, what's going to happen?

I think that's actually the best approach.

How do you feel about people staying in marriages when they are unhappy and they have children?

Well, I love that. Feel like you're modeling it. And I'll give you an example. Or watch the video on TikTok the other day, right, and they were talking about father's raising daughters, and they said, one of the best things you can do if you're a father raising a daughter is to treat her mother well because you are teaching her how she can expect to be treated by a partner when she gets older. What can she expect from her partner? Can she expect to be ridiculed? Can

So yes, I.

Believe if you're in a situation where you know it's toxic or worse she had its abuse, or it's a situation where you're just gonna never get to the next step, the next page in your life leading to happiness in your life, you need to get out of it.

I'm very happy you said that because my life coach actually told me that, and that's how I opened up my eyes because I never saw it that way. I didn't realize, like, my daughter is going to watch how a man treats me. And he had asked me like, would you want a man to treat your daughter that way?

And listen, just let that statement lie for a little for a few minutes. I mean, listeners need to really take that to heart. Would you want a man to treat your daughter that way.

Yeah, And I think I've gotten a lot of criticism that, you know, thinking the old school way, like no matter what, even if you're unhappy, you stay in the marriage. And I think it's the complete opposite.

It is it is, And I think the toxicity for kids they soak up.

Give another piece of information.

A lot of the divorces that I get where women come forward and they say, hey, it's it's time for me to pull the trigger and say and you know what they say was the was the proverbial last straw. Their kid said something to them. Their kid said, Mom, it's it's time. Mom, it's you can't keep putting up with this. Kids know when they're and they're soaking it up like sponges. We think that, you know, oh they're they're in their bedroom and they're sleeping, or they're hiding around the court.

Listen, my daughter will.

They're always listening. That is something I learned. Even with my four year old daughter. It's like, oh, yeah, they have double ears.

The ears, the walls have ears, for sure. Oh yeah, we've all had those. Middle of the night. My daughter will and she's like listen, she's like a cat.

Burglar in the middle of the night, I'll she'll just her head will pop out from behind the date bed in our bedroom and there she is.

I didn't even hear it come in.

These kids are smart nowadays.

They are.

So as an expert in your field, can you spot a couple who's doomed before they even know it?

Ooh yeah, yeah, I can spot the signs. I mean again, and I think, you know, I hate to keep coming back to this, but I think, especially for women, you know, one of the good one indicator for me is like, and I was thinking this as we were talking earlier, like, are you with a partner who would be comfortable when you're in the spotlight and there in the shadows?

M good way?

They always need to be like, well, I'm in the spotlight and you're back here?

Is that the dynamic there?

You know?

And there are times where and that was one of the other pieces from that video that I watched, like, you know, there are times where you know you need to be in the lead. They need to be building you up, they need to be supporting you, they need to be behind you, and then you do the same for them. But it can never be a circumstance where

She'd never lit, are you kidding?

You hear stuff like that, Like if you talk to me, either in my wife's presence or outside of her presence, you will hear me talk about her like she's a fucking rock star. Excuse my friends, because she is. That's but right, I'm inspired by her, I'm motivated by her, and sometimes I look at her, I'm like, shit, I gotta I really got to pick up my game, man, this lady's killing it.

And and you know, but that's what it's supposed to be.

So when you see a dynamic where that's not present, or it's like, you know, I'm picking up this for him or I'm doing that for him, and like, yes, you're going to do it for each other. But if it's not a give and take, if it's not a two way street, then you got to question what you're doing.

Yeah, and that will always change throughout life. There's always going to be one person.

That achieves more, does more, and it's the cycle of life.

It's and so being there for one another, having that partnership is so important. And you know marriage is supposed to be many many years, so it's like there'll be ups and downs, but supporting on one another is crucial.

It's one hundred percent. And it's funny.

I was watching a video that I consume a lot of social media content, not just to get ideas for my own stuff, but but just because I love the area. But they said there's three things your spouse should be doing. They should either be motivating you and inspiring you to be the best you you can be and be like your cheerleader. Or they should be helping support you. Or they should be getting the hell out of your way. And I somewhat disagree with the last one. But they

Yeah, the end of my first season, I remember not to go too much into detail, but I was having brunch with my ex and my daughter and we had just finished a whole season, and out of nowhere, he just kind of kept saying, like, you should thank me that I put you on TV, and kind of bringing me down. And that was another moment that I opened up my eyes. I'm like, you're supposed to be my husband, my partner, thank you, Like this is something we did together,

It was always about him and never about.

Me and diminishing me, and that is what broke me down at the very end, and I was like, what am I doing?

My worth is like I don't deserve this.

I don't deserve to have somebody treat and talk to me like that.

Yeah, absolutely, one hundred percent.

I mean they have to be a situation where they're giving you the credit that you deserve. And again we come back to the situation I was talking about earlier. You have to be in situations where they are comfortable giving you there and a lot of it, I think is ego.

It's like, oh, it's got to be me. It's got to be me.

It's always got it's always got to be all about me. That's fine. I love ego to the extent that it means that you're confident and that you're you're driven to get ahead. But you got to check that damn ego and support your partner, you know, and you got to let them know how much you appreciate them.

It's funny.

I was watching an interview the other day about from u Selena Gomez and Bennie Blanco and they were talking about their relations.

I've seen that so many times.

Oh my god, I love it so much. He supports her so much. I love it.

And I think that's why people love it, because men don't support women as much as they should.

Yeah, yeah, and that and let me tell you so here's so here's what's so funny about that. You know, you'll you'll hear from like the guys on my social media's.

Oh that's a SIMP. That is a BS.

That is the most confident man, the man who does not feel challenged by the fact that his woman is his wife.

His partner is just amazing.

As a matter of fact, they should feel complimented by it and support them in every way they can.

That's why I love those videos, those clips of that. I love it so much.

Me too, And you can see that she appreciates that and she loves him that much more because she has such a supportive partner.

And he is not challenged one iota buy it, and neither is she. And that's what makes for the great partnership. And great partnerships are what they're really at its core, what great marriages are about.

Yeah, I'm curious for myself, Like, do you see now more women asking for the divorce and filing first?

Yeah, the percentages have always been higher for women. It's roughly about sixty five or so percent filed by women. But I think, you know, there's good reason for that. But I think the funny part about it is people think, because of those statistics, and I think mainly men think because of those statistics that women are just like, oh uh, this guy doesn't work.

I want a divorce.

That is not the way it works.

On average.

Women spend years painstakingly, you know, trying to restore the merits or relationship and send signals and communicate and like and end up in a situation. And that's why when you get to the divorce process, many women have been like, you know, like like the situation we were talking about earlier, just like feeling like, you know, they did all these things and they get no credit and there's no support, and they're like mentally and emotionally, it's about getting past that,

Yeah, I can't imagine a woman just wakes up one day it's like, Okay, I want to file for divorce.

No, of course not. It takes so long.

It does, And I think women really internalize it in my experience that they feel a sense of shame, they feel a sense of failure, they feel a sense of like like it's like it's their fault in a way, and in as part of the process, you know, one of the most important things you could do is like unpack all of that. You don't get through all of that because clearly it's not your fault and manute and in many cases it's very small percentage your fault, if at all.

So I did think it was my fault because I was the person who made the final decision. But now with therapy, I've learned that no, it's I just did the right thing, and I did the right thing for myself and for my daughter.

Yeah, And I think the funny part about it is that usually the people on the other side of those circumstances will use every clever trick that they can to keep your self esteem, you know, and keep your motivation to get to the next level down right. They'll say, like, you know, perfect sample, which is like until what you were talking about earlier. They'll say like, well, you'll never find anybody who will love you as much as I do. Well, how does that devalue that person?

Oh?

Well, they're only you know, how could they possibly find somebody as great as this other person to love.

Them like they love them?

Well, no, they're worth that and so much more. And that's why again, like that Benny Blanco thing, like I tell her I love her every day and she gets tired of it, and I you know, explained to you know, talk to her about how great she is and where you know, as guys, we're not great at that.

You know.

I think it takes effort, It takes work. But you know, for any guys that are listening, say, if you are with a great lady, go home and tell her today you're fucking awesome, man, Like I am so.

Lucky to be And how easy is that?

How easy is it to give an affirmation, to give a compliment, to just be like, hey, you're amazing.

I think that's all women really want.

Yeah, yeah, I think I think just people in general want to feel appreciated, and I think especially for women, especially for the ones who are really killing it, who are doing it all, which which comprises a large majority of the women that we represent. They're doing everything, they're with the kids, they're with businesses, they're making the money,

I was like, whoa.

Wait a second, Well show.

You right right.

I mean, I'm looking in from the outside saying this, This lady's way out of your class, dude.

A couple more things I wanted to ask.

So I was having a dinner with my girlfriend who's also getting divorced, and so something she said to me that I had never even thought of. She was like, you know, when you're in the divorce and you're in a room or in the house with the ex, you know, an argument can get heated and you can start screaming. And she actually knows a lot of people who call nine one one or gets arrested, and it was kind of a joke, but she was like, no, this is

You know.

I always try to counsel clients to keep things as vanilla as is possible. I think it starts from a situation where again the same. You have to remember that the same dynamic throughout that developed throughout your marriage. The other party, especially if it's a toxic relationship, is going to think post divorce, business as usual. I'm gonna talk to you the way I used to talk to you. I'm gonna treat you the way I used to treat you, and for many it's poorly And I think the shift

Now.

Obviously you do that in consultation with your lawyer, because sometimes you want to be strategic about that because a lot of times they'll surreptitiously try to like draw you in. Well, I'm going to try to push their buttons until they get aggravated, and then I'm going to go to the judge and say, well, they wouldn't talk to me about the kids.

Yeah, because would that affect the custody agreement or does that affect it?

Can? It can?

But I think it's it's important to draw that line. It's important to know that that raising the voice foul language any level of abuse. I mean certainly anything physical should does not and should not be tolerated. And I think, you know, I have to be cautious when we're in this space because if you're in a situation where there's been physical violence, or there's been any level of domestic

But other than.

Immediate safety safety plan police. If it's just verbal and there's no domestic violence, you don't have to tolerate it.

And as easy as that sounds, that is so hard in the moment. It is you want to go that back and forth and prove your point, and you.

Know do you do?

But I think what is that doing to you? If you do that, it's eating you up. And that's why let's back up a little bit. I want you to unpack all of the proverbial shit you dealt with in that relationship throughout. Unpack that in a therapist's office and deal with it. Okay, I know, you know, and I think people don't appreciate how much there is to deal

I'm done with them.

The best thing you can do for yourself and to prove anything to them is to walk out the door.

That's my philosophy now, and it took me some time to learn. I was like, I don't need to deal with this. I don't have to hear it.

I have a lawyer email done one hundred percent, thank you.

And then I want to ask two questions that I get asked often. I think I know the answers to this, but a lot of women don't. You know a lot of people have a lot of women have beautiful, big engagement rings and they're like, what do I do? Do I give it back to them? And I said that it's a gift. That's what I was told. Is that correct?

It depends on your state. So let's put it this way.

I'm a New York state divorce lawyer. So typically the engagement ring is a gift and it's you know, and it's dealt with in that way through the through the divorce process. But I think I would be cautious about it and talk with your lawyer about your state's laws, because remember, divorce laws will vary from state to state.

Okay, and these are conversations you really need to have before you get married, like how can you get married to somebody spend the rest of your life with them, but don't know their financial situation?

Let that lie for a little bit, because I'll tell you that is a piece of very valuable sound advice. And not just understand how important what you just said is. It's not just about the divorce process, but it's just as much about building a relationship that will last. It starts with transparency. Know how that person's going to react in the worst possible circumstance.

Know how they make their money.

Know what their debts are, Like, what are their assets if we were divorce, what do you expect from me? Well, I want you to be a stay at home mom, but I don't want to give you any assets if we divorce. We'll wait a second. If I'm helping you build all this money and then you want to just walk out the door that your so again, I think the prenup is a way, like you said, to have transparency from the outset.

Know all of these things.

Okay, And what is it called the post Once you're already married.

There's a post nup. So in post nups, it's funny, there's a there so. So in New York State, we do divorce agreements, which is generally a written contract and agreement that provides for every possible issue that would come up in the context of your divorce case. You can do it prior to the marriage it's called a prenup. You can do it post the marriage, and during the marriage, which is called a post up. And then if you're doing it in anticipation of a divorce, it's typically called

Yeah, that's the best time to do it.

And I wish I was told and I knew about that, because I would have done it when I was first thinking about it, and that would have saved so much time and a headache. And I think it would just it would have made the process much easier. So I think it's important to know about that, even when you are married, you can still have a post.

Not it is one hundred percent.

And like I said, I think there are so many emotions and the average divorce case, there are so many emotions swirling in the context of a divorce case because think of it, every aspect of your life is going to change. And in addition to the fact that many people still harbor, you know, remaining remnants of the broken relationship that they need to that they've kind of feel like they need to get back at the other side on.

What a life lesson. Well, thank you. I'm so happy.

I hope this was very helpful for others because it is to me and I'm still learning even being in the middle of it, Like I learn every single day, and I'm like, I wish I knew that before and I wish there were, you know, I saw little clips on tiktoks. I would see you all the time, and that little guidance here and there can make such a big difference.

So thank you, Thank you so much, Michelle, and listen, I want to I want you to appreciate and understand how valuable what you're doing is, because people who are going through it right now what I tell them on a regular basis, consume as much free content as you can about the process and what happens.

And it's a magical thing when people gain.

So when you go into the divorce process, there's a whole bunch of unknowns, and the anxiety comes from the unknowns. As you go through it and share what you've dealt with and share your insights, you're making some of the knowns or the unknowns for people knowns, or at least they have an idea on what they can expect, and that information brings down their anxiety and gives them calm. And calm is what people need more than anything else when.

They're going through the divorce process. So thank you for what you do. Keep doing it.

Thank you.

And I've also never been anxious person, and it's the first time that. There are times I'm reviewing emails, I'm like, I have anxiety, Like anxiety is a real thing.

And you can feel it in your chest.

It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, I'm starting to breathe better and good. I'm still in the middle of it, but hopefully one day that will be in the past and I can move to the future. And lastly, I think, you know, when people get divorced, what is that rate of redivorce? Because I still believe in marriage. I still want to get married in the future one day.

I think.

I think the one statistic we haven't come up with is what's the divorce rate for remarriage for people who take the time to heal, who take the time to unpack the baggage left.

Over from their first marriage.

I think we don't really have a reliable statistic on that yet, but I think ultimately someday we will. The second marriage rate is higher than the first marriage, right, and it goes up from there. So first marriage little over fifty percent, second marriage a little over sixty percent,

You, and then you will attract the right partner.

And those marriages, I think are the ones that are going to last.

Perfectly said, all right, having to thank you, good to talk with you, Michelle, have a great take you too if they care. Bye.