This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast Chris Ayris and Lauren Zema Company from the home office in Austin, Texas. Elsie, we have such a beautiful show to share with everybody today.
When we heard about Kirsten and Jason Clawson's story in an article in People magazine, we really wanted to have them on. So Kirsten and Jason both lost their spouses Valerie and Cody, to cancer, and then they found each other and now they've gotten married and welcomed a new baby girl, and it's just an incredible story of persevering
through grief finding joy on the other side. And the tips that they gave us on how to do that, the actionable pointers that they had, how to date, how to support your friends going through grief, how to parent through grief are such incredible takeaways because not only are they living with grief, but actually Jason self is a therapist. So I've just never learned so much about the grief space in such a short amount of time. We cannot
wait for you guys to hear this. Here is our chat with Kirsen and Jason.
Such a beautiful story. We read this article in People Magazine and just thought, you know, the most dramatic podcast ever despite the name, is actually about love and spreading love. And what an amazing loving story the two of you have give us kind of a broad overview of y'all's story.
Sure, So, Jason and I both lost our first spous list to cancer. Jason lost his first wife, Valerie, to colon cancer in twenty nineteen and I lost my first husband to leukemia in twenty twenty.
And we kind of met.
Through a Facebook group that was dedicated to young widows and widowers in our area, and we started to know of each other through that group, and it turned out that we both kind of felt ready to start.
Mingling again, dating again, and.
So we ended up connecting on a on a dating app, and yeah, when when Jason popped up online, we we uh connected and and uh it was just kind of magic from from there on out.
We've been married for over two years and our little miracle baby, Macy is a year and a half old.
So.
Early. We got married in January and four months later, Kirsen is on the phone calling me and saying, guess what, I'm pregnant, and she's like, this can't be happening. I've been told by doctors that I'm not supposed to have kids and Parvard all that explain this, She says. I'm I'm not happy with this.
Yeah, yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't happy with the news because well, we're in our forties for one.
And and uh, it just was I really thought that it was going to be another experience of loss. Yeah, and so I wasn't. I was really scared. I was really scared, and I was I was pretty unhappy about it.
And it has turned out she turned out to be.
You know, a very healthy baby and just a light and a joy and a gift, and a completely unexpected one at that.
So hence the miracle baby.
Yes, yes, you never know what life's going to throw at you, do you.
Yeah, we never. Yeah, we didn't expect this and we were happy. Actually, before we got married, we talked about are we okay with not having children? And we agreed. We're like, yeah, we're in our forties, Yeah, that's totally fine. We have two boys that take care of and all of a sudden, there's miracle came out of nowhere. And we always say the miracle that we prayed for to
have our spouse is healed. Didn't happen, But the miracle that we got is the one that God wanted us to be able to help heal our heart and bring our family closer together.
I was going to ask, when did it change for you guys, because I think women can so understand what you're talking about, Kirsten, of that fear and if you've been through grief, that fear of more loss. But when did it change to realize like, Okay, wait, now we have this new perspective on this was the miracle that we were supposed.
To have when she was born.
I think I think it really took until she was actually here for me to get to that space of Okay, this really is our plan, this is our path. I had embraced the pregnancy far earlier, but I was still so scared.
The whole time. I was just I was so so scared.
But when she came, it was like, oh, of course, this is exactly what you're supposed to have.
I remember seeing her for the first time and.
This just being completely blown away. I think that's probably true for any mother that has a baby, right is you know, they welcome a child into the world and it's this person that you know, you were supposed to know your whole life is finally here, and that's just kind of what it was.
Well, I think, Yers, you just hit on something that I talk so. I lost my dad when I was in college, and I do a lot of work with them grief and kids who have gone through grief, And you just hit on something that I talk about with
people so much, which is timing. And I wonder if you guys can speak to that a little bit because I've spoken to my own mom a lot about like timing and when she started dating after losing my dad, and I think I've had to do a lot of growing over the years to realize actually how long it was going to take her. You know, I think grief's different for everybody, and I so wanted her to be happy and wanted her to heal, but she had to
do things in her own time. So can you guys speak a little bit on that, the timing of like when you knew and how you knew and how it helped you find this new happiness.
Yeah, I think one thing that man Kirson talked a lot about was you got to do your work to be able to be in the position to be ready to meet up with each other, because what we didn't want to do is we didn't want to replace our spouse.
There's this empty hole here that we're wanting to replace, But we didn't necessarily want to find another valerie or find another code because we are growing through this grief and we're accepting this new reality and it comes with like leaning into the discomfort of the situation and becoming this new person. So we had to do We had to go to therapy, we had to do our own work.
We had to emotionally, spiritually, physically do our work. So we are emotionally mature and emotionally intelligent that when another person comes into our lives, we can have those deeper conversations. We can talk about each other's spouse without jealousy. We can talk about each other's spouse and celebrate their life and feel like they are a part of our life forever. They're not this spouse that is disappeared that will no longer be a part of our life, but they are
in our lives forever. And it's because of the work that we did in preparation to meet each other. So when we met, it's like, oh, this makes sense. I mean, our conversations are deeper. We don't talk about superficial things. I mean, from the time I was texting her, I just said, you know what, Kirsen, I don't like texting. I'm going to call you. I called her and we
talked for three hours the first time we met. And I think that really goes to the work and the depth of how much work we did in preparation to be able to be ready for each other. Anything you add vibe I would know.
I think that's really pretty spot on. I think for me, I had well.
Probably what's important to know is that both of our late spouses really encouraged us to find love again. And that's not always the case, or I truly believe that every you know, if somebody loves you, they want you to be happy, even if they're here, even if they're not here, they really would do want happiness for you.
But both of our late spouses, in very special ways, really encouraged us to go forward and to continue to live a happy life and to make them proud and to find love again and so and that's one of the reasons why we did do our work, is because we knew that that was something that we needed to do for us and for them. For me, the timing was a surprise because it actually happened relatively fast. We were married a little over a year after my late husband passed away, and that was not my plan.
You know, I really saw myself being single for several years.
But it's but you just you just put that so perfectly, and I'm going to take that with me of not replacing someone doing the work to be ready to find a new, healthy, happy relationship, but not just looking to fill a void. That's one of the most brilliant things I've ever heard about grief.
Thank you. Yeah, We've had to live that, and it's it's I mean, one thing that we value to is we still have I mean, look behind us. There's Cody's pitcher behind us. Yeah, and there's Valeries pictures in the front room. So they still are a part of our life and honored and we still celebrate their anniversaries and death days and it's just they're they're an extension to us and they're just a big part of our family.
There's so much I want to ask you now because so many people listening. Grief is something because Lauren and I talk about this a lot. Grief is something that will unfortunately touch all of us at some point in our lives, and it's something that nobody talks about. It's so taboo in hush hush, and then when somebody loses somebody, you don't know what to say. I don't want to
say the wrong thing. So I'll start with for people that have lost somebody, your advice on having the strength and the power and to move on that your life is not done because their life is over. So I.
Will say that I took the perspective of I don't want my life to have lost all of its meaning because they're not here anymore. I want to show the world who I am because they were a part of it. I want to show the world world that when Cody died, I had this real, legitimate fear that the world was going to forget that he ever lived.
And so my goal was to make sure the world knew that he lived.
And if that was going to be through me being a better person, me fulfilling his last wishes, me continuing to honor it him however I needed to do that, I was going to do that, and I think that taking that perspective is actually very healthy.
I think it's very healthy to find grief changes you.
It changes you in ways you'll never expect, but it can change you in a way where you cultivate this beautiful, lasting bond with the person that's passed away, and you just you can just cultivate that and you grow that, and you do it by doing these really special themes to honor them and to make sure the world remembers them.
That's what I think. What do you think?
Yeah, I think the biggest saying is Valerie was such a light to so many people, and even even at our funeral, everybody's like I was Valerie's best friend. No, I was Valerie's best friend, and for that I didn't want that to be forgotten. So one of the things that me and my boys have done is we shortly after about nine months into my wife passing away, is we created a lemonade stand outside my house and we
wanted to have baskets. We wanted to raise money and create these hope kits to to deliver to families that were struggling just like us. So we raised over fifteen hundred dollars and we started creating these kits in my wife's honor, and we call them be like bal baskets, and we begin to deliver them to people and embrace them and help them remember my wife's love as well as help them feel important at that moment. And to be able to do that is kind of emotional time
out from what we are experiencing. But it was so healing to be able to say we care about you, we feel you, we know how hard it is. And to see my kids teaching their kids, it was just beautiful to watch. And this has been so healing in our journey that we continue on to give people these kits and help people and continue to honor each other's spouse because they are a part of us and they help us strengthen our relationship by continuing to honor them.
Yeah, and I will just add to that by saying, you know, we've talked a little bit about doing your work. What I don't think people understand, especially in the early days and months, or even the first year or so of grief, is that it requires work. You do.
Surviving is easy.
You get out from bed, you maybe brush your teeth that day, maybe maybe not shower, grab.
Something, eat, go back to it.
Surviving this is easy, but to really grow through the grief, you have to do your work.
You have to do your work, whatever that is.
I think you guys have just so hit the nail on the head in so many ways because I often see people and this is I'm not you know, I'm not judging them. Everybody's doing their best because grief is the hardest thing will go through. But you know, sometimes people might like, like it's awesome to have a support
group for example, as you guys have done. But then I've seen people maybe like they can you can get a little stuck in like sharing but not doing the work and moving forward, you know, like you have to add the therapy into the mix and then okay, you're working on yourself. But what you just talked about giving back with those kits and helping others, I mean maybe selfishly, but for me, helping others has pushed me to a new level of healing with grief. And wow, you guys
are what an example. So thank you and a.
Great You had a good line there and I almost thought you were going to say, you know, surviving is easy, living and thriving is the difficult part. Anybody can just survive and move along, but actually living again that is Yes, it's very important. And when you know, one thing I've learned from Lauren about grief is it's that river right
that's ever changing and ever flowing. And it sounds like you have Oddly, you two are very equipped, but oftentimes it would be one person who suffered loss the other person hasn't. You two are very well equipped because you're both suffering through this. But I also find it interesting because you're suffering and how you're dealing with loss is
going to be different than the other person. So having that grace and understanding with each other is still important because it's always going to continue to change.
Yes, and it changes sometimes with the weather, the season changes, and sometimes we don't understand why we're having a difficult day or a bad day, but obviously we're where the dates and the hard days that are coming up. But when we're able to recognize when Kirsten is off or having a bad day, we often check in with each other and say, how are you doing, what are you feeling today? What do you remember about this day? And we say is there something I can do for you?
Can I listen to you? To be in tune to be able to help her go through those moments, and we're open enough to be able to communicate what each other need in those moments. I think a good example is we've been by each other's spouse's graves and Kirsen will say, hey, I'm getting emotional talking about this. She'll say, do you.
Need a moment with Valerie? And I said, yes, I need a moment. So she'll go take the kids and I'll sit there and have my private moment with Valerie. And that is so special to me that she's able to honor and have us have that special moment. And we do it all the time for each other because we know how that is in their life.
And I don't think you need to know grief to offer those moments either. I think it really is just seeking to understand what the other person is feeling and then allowing them the space to feel it without jealousy, or without resentment or you know, all of that those other ugly things.
You don't need them, Yeah, you don't need them to allow them the moments that they need to grieve.
Yeah, thank you so much for getting emotional. I love emotions. You made me cry, so that makes me happy.
Being emotional is how I've healed. So I've had to be take off my mask of masculinity and say here I am. Yeah, I'm here to heal.
How has that been.
It's been difficult, very difficult. Yeah. I mean something that I teach people is about a healing team. And one of the hardest moments of my life was nine months after my wife. Life got too hard and I remember taking a lunch break. I'm a clinical therapist, so I'm actively helping people with difficult life changing events and it just got too heavy, and I remember pulling out my phone, texting people in my neighborhood family church group, and I said, I'm not doing okay. Can you guys meet me at
my house. I just want to share you how hard it will be. I sent it and then seven o'clock came around that night, and all of a sudden, there was a knock at the door and I opened it up and I went, oh, no, I'm going to have to talk. And the reality of it was I actually called my own intervention and I'm sitting in my living room.
I'm looking around and I finally took off my mask and I just opened up to my family, and right there where I could just be real and honest, because I think when I was wearing the mask, they couldn't tell how hard I was suffering. They didn't really know what's going on. But the moment I was vulnerable and invited vulnerability, I gave them permission to come in and say what they needed to do and start helping me
the ways I needed to. And that was pivotal in the way that I changed my grief and then moving forward,
we created a team. Whenever I got struggling or whenever I was having a hard day, I could text one word to my team captain, and my team captain would send a text out to people in my group, and everybody had an assignment in that group that they could take on, whether it be my parents would do my laundry, someone would do the yard work, someone would be me food, someone would take care of my kids, and the weight would be taken off and I could breathe until I
can say I can do those again. I'm strong enough to build back. And that was a process of building resilience in my grief and doing my work that helped me heal and put me in such a better place to be a better father, be a better person, better therapist, and a better spouse. Today.
Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for sharing all that, because I think it's important for people to know that, like therapists can't just therapy themselves. Actually, you're the second therapist we've had on talk about grief who also experienced loss themselves. And you know, there's part as a non therapist. I think there's part of me that goes but wait, can't you just recognize what's wrong in yourself and fix yourself?
But right, yeah, exactly, can't look at the mirror and say, Jason, tell me how you really be?
Yeah, before I let you guys go, you mentioned you Jason, you had kids. How has that been? How did you guys work on that with loss and the kids, Kirsten and both of you. And advice again for people that you know are trying to move on. But that's another kind of obstacle and hurdle you have to overcome.
Funny, because we were just talking about this last night.
I have a friend from high school whose husband just passed away from cancer, and she reached out asking, you know, I've got three kids, how do I not project my grief, how do I keep parenting and grief?
So we were just talking about how do you bring somebody new into a relationship when they're still missing their dad or their mom exactly.
You know what. Boston, he had a really good relationship with my wife and he's our oldest, he's seventeen right now. But we've had to do a couple things. My seventeen year old and my eleven year old, they process griefs so differently. Where Boston goes internal, he doesn't say a word, he's silent, and then my other Cooper, he's really behaviorally. He's acting out and screaming. I something's going on, and
I don't know what's going on. So one thing that I had to do is I had to figure out I had to understand that, and then I had to figure out a way to be able to help them communicate and share without me being the therapist and asking them questions. We had to do some creative ways of processing their emotions where we did art. We sat down at the kitchen table and I gave them a question and they would create and draw something that helped them
express themselves. But so doing different things to help them was so helpful. And then with Boston, I think we need to be aware and give our kids some credit because my son, when I started looking at dating, actually he was saying, hey, hey, Dad, what are you going to start dating again? And I said, I'm doing my work. I'm getting there. And I remember him saying, Dad, we I get emotional again. We need a mom, We need
a mom in our life. And I was just so blown away that he was coaching his dad, telling him what he needed. He needed a mother in the home, he needed someone to be there and to take care of some of those individual needs that I wasn't doing a very good job.
And they know you're better when you're happy in your whole.
Chris, and I think that.
What I saw it, I think he saw it.
Yeah, And I think that was a pivotal point of my son's giving me a pep talk and saying, let's do your work so you can be in a position to help and bring someone into our lives. And it was it was difficult and hard to be able to have that, and we were super nervous about bringing someone
into the home and the relationship. But one thing that we talked about the other day with someone was we were getting ready to watch something on TV and my boys are like, hey, Dad, she's your girlfriend, right, And I go, yeah, goes, if she's your girlfriend, let you invite her over and hang out with us. And I was like, oh my gosh. They are more ready than
we give them credit. So being able to listen to them and what they're telling us is so vital in the process because I feel like kids are sometimes casualties in the whole situation where they get left out. We're not authentic, we're not real about how what's going on even with our emotions. That the more that we have those conversations or we create more of those conversations to have those open conversations and talk about real things that can be so beautiful, and your kids could probably tell
you something that will help unlock your grief. So we need to give them more credit more often.
And when I came into the family, I don't require that they call me mom, and I try very very hard to make sure that they know that I'm not here to replace their mom.
In fact, I refer to Valerie a lot as my partner and parenting.
Her pictures are up and I'm just I'm the mom on earth she's the mom in heaven. But we do work together and in Boston, the seventeen year old, he doesn't call me mom, but the eleven year old does. And we don't pressure them in any way, just allow them to do what they feel is most comfortable to them.
Well, I can't give you guys enough credit. I've, like I said, I've done a lot of work with people going through grief, and I'm blown away by your strength, your awareness, much inte, your emotional intelligence and all this. It's just incredible. So thank you. When we heard your story and read about it and people we really wanted to have you all on and I've taken away so much from this podcast, So thank you both, so so much.
Oh, We're honored to be here talking to you guys.
I'm glad you talked to us about Valerie and Cody today. That was awesome. Thank you.
Which, by the way, they were both huge fans of the batch.
Oh, thank you.
Sometimes the men are bigger fans than the women.
I've found one was the he was the bigger fan.
It helps you, he helps you take off that emotional mask. It kind of got Yeah, all our love and continued success and continue growing together. As a beautiful couple. Thank you guys, thank you so much.
Thank you, Thank you again to Jason and Kirsten. You know, one thing that really is sticking with me too is that support group from his friends that he had. Like, I think so many people struggle with how to help, what to do, what to say, And I might be getting this wrong, but the research shows that after just a couple of weeks. I don't want to say that it's either three weeks or three months, but just a matter of weeks, people like the support for someone who's
grieving kind of fades. You know, in the beginning, people send flowers and send food, and then they don't know what to do.
To get back to your own life and your stuff.
Yeah.
So I think that's support group with the specific tasks and he can just send a group text if he needs help.
I like having a code word to a captain and then it disseminates.
It was like a phone tree.
Yeah, so you're not calling and asking and begging everybody to help, it's like they just do.
That was such a great idea. So if you know someone who's going through loss, I think setting that up is incredible. So Jason and Kirsten continue to share pointers and info on their journey on their Instagram Light after Grief like finding the light in the dark. The handle is at Light after Grief and thank you so much again to them and we will talk to you guys next time because we have.
A lot more to talk about. Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most dramatic pod ever and make sure to write us a review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you next time.