Dropping like Fleiss (Part 2)

stepping away. Laura and I in our podcast mentioned that there just seemed to be more to this story. And I also knew, and I talked about this, that I knew of several journalists that were working on stories. Well, I thought the other shoe would drop. I just didn't know it would happen this quickly. So we are coming to you again late Thursday night. It's now about ten

o'clock Austin time, Central time. Three articles have now dropped about this situation, one from Variety, one from Deadline that goes kind of deep into an ABC overall deal, and then a very interesting bombshell article written by Matt Bellany, a journalist who has an industry newsletter called the Puck and he is also the host of an industry podcast called The Town. I track Matt down. He's nice enough to join me live tonight to talk about all of this. Matt,

what have you discovered? So, Mike Flice, the creator of The Bachelor, someone you must know, Yes, very well, my boss for twenty years. Yes, he announced this past week that he was leaving the show after twenty one years. And it was a very flowery statement, filled with inspirational language about how everyone helped him and you know, he's very excited about the future and it's the right time to step down. So I learned this week that that

wasn't the case. You came out in this article and the headline reads, The Bachelor loses its cold black heart. Your first sentence, A round of applause on the Warner Brothers lot is probably in order, for she's the Warner Brothers attorney who investigated this. What made you feel so comfortable coming out firing in this article? Well, Slice is

one of those notorious figures. And it's weird talking to you about this because I know you're not allowed to talk about it, but sort of I know you know, and you can't say this stuff I can, because obviously I'm not involved with the show in any way. But he was a pretty notorious figure in the reality TV community, known as just kind of being a jerk and vindictive and you know, going after people he perceived to be

his end means. And he had this thing where he did not believe that the Bachelor franchise should be racially diverse, and his arguments, according to people that I've talked to, stem from the fact that the audience he didn't believe would like it, and he was forced to make changes

over the years. But many people who worked on The Bachelor felt that he was not the right person to be there, and there were complaints that were made about him, and that culminated with this Warner Brothers investigation that I wrote about this week. And it looks like you know, in reading through your article, and by the way, there's also now three three articles have dropped. There's the Variety article,

a Deadline article has dropped about an ABC deal. You and I are going to get to that here in just a little bit. And of course your article that is in um on Puck and I'm sure we'll be talking about it on your podcast The Town. You know. One thing I can say is it was interesting when I even when I was on the show, and then afterwards when I would go into meetings, pitch meetings, what have you, people would always stop and say, okay, but first you got to tell us stories. You gotta tell

us what was it really like? There really was? And I take it this is what I want to hear from you, because you are known industry wide. What was the feeling? What do you what was the idea of Mike Flice out there? He was this dark genius that people believed had an idea originally for a show that cut through. There were a million dating shows out there, and this one became the huge franchise. Why is that so? I mean, I'm sure you would argue and had a

great host that was mostly it. Timing is timing is everything. It was lightning in a bottle. I think it hit the right chord at the right time, and it was produced very well, very well produced, and it appeared during that there was this cauldron of creativity in nineteen ninety nine to two thousand and two where most of the big reality franchises that still power the industry today. We're

talking millionaire Survivor, Big Brother, American Idol, The Bachelor. Those shows all debuted in that three year period between ninety nine and two thousand and two, and it was right when people were accepting of this format. And here comes this very well produced dating show that has a mix of fantasy and this darker, kind of machiavellian twist on it where the women are all competing for the affection of a man, and it struck a chord and he

was definitely part of that. From everything that I have, everyone I've talked to said, this is not a guy who got lucky and attached himself to something that was going to be a hit. Regardless, he absolutely contributed to the success, especially in the early years of the show. But other than Bachelor and Bachelor related shows, he never created another show that was a hit, and he became a presence on the show that was I don't want

to use the word toxic. I think that gets thrown around a lot, but people that work on the show did not consider him a positive influence. You know, you mentioned in the article you called his farewell statement ridiculous, and part of that statement really seemed to try to distance Mike from the show. And they actually used the term ten years that he hadn't really been a part of those show for the last decade. You took issue with that. Yeah, he's still around, he's you know, it's

a sporadic appearance. From everything that I have heard, he was still involved. And why were they trying to distance in that statement? Why were they trying in your mind as a lawyer, putting on your lawyer hat because I know you are, Why try to distance him from the franchise like that. Well, there's there's controversies that have played out over the past decade. I mean, namely the show. There was a discrimination complaint filed against the show, claiming

that it systematically excluded black people. And there were the personal scandals that he had, I mean, he was he was accused of beating his pregnant wife, which he has denied. He got into this fight with his neighbor in Malibu where he allegedly was playing loud barking noises in the middle of the night, and you know, got into the controversy there. There was everything that happened that led to your exit from the show, and the controversy surrounding the

Matt James season of the Bachelor. So there's a lot of stuff that this show has endured. I mean, to its credit, it still has an audience, although the audience has gone down significantly over the past few years, but it's still endures and I think ABC and Warner Brothers would like it to continue on. Well does it I think that's the multi multimillion dollar question. Does it endure? Matt? You know much has been made and you mentioned as

much in your article about the ratings. Obviously they've been declining show after show, season after season, and you know this Monday's finale was the lowest in history. Does this show endure? Does this show survive? I think it does because as much as the ratings have declined, it's still generating an audience larger than other stuff you put in that place. It is a franchise that people know, and we are not seeing the streaming numbers for the show.

For all we know, the streaming numbers are large, the magical streaming numbers that nobody really ever knows and people can talk about. I know, I know, but you gotta assume that there is an audience for this show that is finding it on streams. There definitely is still an audience for this show. There's still an appetite for it. I mean, it's obviously the social relevance is is diminished incredibly, so have the ratings. But as you said, even if

you're just taking the network ratings, it's still viable. It still makes money. They they definitely need this to stay. Yeah, and I could see other franchise elements going away before the flagship goes away. You know, maybe they don't need Bachelor in Paradise right or hours start getting cut down, it moves nights. Yeah, there's a Bachelor at every other year. It'll be death by a thousand paper cuts. It's not

going to be the guillotine, is what you're saying. Yeah, and I and I don't you know, or maybe they figure out some way to reinvent it. You know. One of the criticisms of the show is that it feels very familiar. Each year. It's been on for twenty one years, You're going to be familiar with it. It's a format in these contestants are plugged into a format, and that's part of the reason why it endures. You know, what

you're getting one thing I want to dive into. You mentioned it and then the Deadline article really went into this, and let's try and explain this in layman's terms so everybody can kind of understand the impact of why this is important. I'll give everybody the set up because it's kind of hard to explain that The Bachelor itself is owned by a production company, Mike Flice's production company, Next Entertainment. Next Entertainment is kind of owned and operated was owned

and operated by Warner Brothers, Warner Horizon. That's the studio we were on ABC, So that's the network we were on. So it's kind of a three headed monster, if you will. Somewhere along the way, Mike was offered an overall deal at ABC. That's the report, and you and Deadline both have said that overall deal is dead. Can you explain a little bit more about how someone would go from

Warner in this situation to ABC? Why is this significant? Well, it's significant because presumably if Mike flies is based at Warner Brothers, they would want all of his producing services and all capacities for anything he does outside of the Bachelor. This we don't know the details on what why I mean, we don't know the details on what this deal would have entailed. Or why Warners would have wanted him to go over there, But it seemed like Warners didn't want

to deal with him anymore. Well, would they have wanted him to go over there? Or did he do that himself or was somebody Maybe he did it himself, Maybe he found I mean, he's very friendly with Rob Mills, who is the head of unscripted shows at ABC. Maybe there was a relationship there and he said come on, come on over. There was a new division that was being launched, and he probably may have said, come on over and do something for us here. It may have

been Warners not wanting to deal with him anymore. But on the ABC behalf and again, you're you're the lawyer here. Doesn't that if you know there are problems, you know there are issues on the horizon, doesn't that open you up to Well, my understanding is that this was scrapped when those issues became apparent gotcha, and that when the investigation began, the ABC deal went away. I don't think this is played out yet. I think maybe that's the next question. Is this over? I don't think it's over.

I think that there will likely be more coming out about some of the onset behavior some You know that a number of people on the show have engaged a lawyer, the same lawyer that you used when you left the show, and they are pursuing potential claims against the show, maybe

for retaliation. There was a group of executives that were put in charge of the show that some people on the show have said, you know, maybe we're not as experienced as some of the others who have been with the show longer and perhaps deserved a shot to run the show. A lot of un answered questions at this point. So, Matt, one thing that I do know is that the show is in production. They're shooting The Bachelorette, the next season

of The Bacherette right now. And having been a part of this franchise for twenty years, I know this is weighing on the crew on the cast. Obviously this has gotten around. Yeah, you're kind of in the bubble, but that doesn't you know, this will permeate the bubble, and so all these producers that we're already in turmoil are now dealing with this. So it is a lot. And speaking of a lot again, I want to say thank you because you just dropped this story about an hour ago.

You jumped on with me. Is there more you're digging into and more you're working on? Oh? Absolutely, I'll have more up on the puck website, puck dot News, and we'll definitely be talking about on The Town podcast, probably in the next week or so. But yeah, there's more to this story, So the Puck Dot News and of course the great podcast The Town, which you cover the industry so brilliantly. I often want to jump on and argue with you and debate you, but that's why it's

a good podcast, and that's why you're welcome. Well continued success on this story, great job, great article. Investigative reporting. Journalism is not dead apparently, and maybe we reconvene next week and dive into this a little more when we have more information. I'll talk to you soon. Thank you again, my thanks to Matt Bellany as this this is a very fluid situation and much more is going to continue

to spill out. This is just the first night. First three articles from Variety, Deadline and Matt Bellany, who's been so gracious to join us tonight, have written these articles. But this is the tip of the iceberg and things like this, and I'm sure more will come out. We will stay on it. I will keep you up to date. And what I'm really interested in too is what is this going to do to you? What's it going to do to Bachelor Nation, what's to due to the viewers?

What is your perspective of this, does it matter to you? And will it affect the show anymore? We will dive into all of this. We will revisit this next week. We will have a brand new episode for you Monday. Until then, have a great weekend and next time we have a lot more to talk about. Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most dramatic pod ever and make sure to write us a review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you next time.