Back in the Saddle Again

This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast. Chris Harrison and Lauren z Ema coming to you today to talk about something we have been talking a lot about lately.

We have been diving deep and it has been emotional, it has been.

Sometimes fraught with peril.

We've been talking a lot with our own moms lately about their love lives. My mom is in a relationship, Chris's mom is single, my mom is a widow, Chris's mom is divorced. And we've been talking about love later in life, and we might have to have our moms on at some point because I think they would tell you, oh God, what did I do before I had you to tell me how to live my life? And they would say we might be weighing in too much.

We are, for sure, we are. And when I say we, but oh, you mean you think me? I think I think you think you definitely love it more than I do.

I don't know if I love it more, but I think I meddle more. I think I'm a fixer. Maybe women are fixers, and I want the moms to be happy, but I mean you're a little more step aside.

Well, in all seriousness, though, this is something that it's not just my mom's. There's there's someone else in my life that I love dearly. And I find it interesting when they say, look, i'm done. You know, I don't. I don't want anybody in my house. I don't want anybody in my life. I like the way, you know, things the way they are, and I want to sleep on my own bed and all this. There's a lot of issues that change as we get older, and I'm

Yes, we've you know, we've gone through in our heads like is saying I'm just ready to be alone?

Is that real?

Or is it just a defense mechanism. We've asked what is? You know, like, what is how can we really advise on dating to our moms even when we've never dated at that age and they have told us you don't understand what it's like. So we wanted to bring on some experts who do understand what it's like. We are joined today by the incredible doctor Gloria Horseley. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and doctor Frank Powers.

He has a PhD.

He is a licensed psychologist with a private practice. So both incredibly accomplished individuals on their own, but they are now in a relationship. And doctor Gloria is a widow herself after sixty years of marriage. She lost her husband and doctor Frank is divorced. So the two of them

So Mom, get out the notebook, get out the number two pencil, Get ready to take some notes because we are diving in.

Hey.

Hey, we've got our People magazine here.

Well, it's so nice to meet you too. Oh my gosh, we are so excited for this.

Now.

We already recorded a little intro hyping you up a minute ago, so if it's okay, we'll.

Dive right in.

You guys are so sweet. Thank you very much. Yes, we obviously just got married. It was beautiful. But what we're talking about today is after that later, later in life is their love later. And you guys are living proof first of all that that there is. So before we talk about we have so many questions for you, talk about yourselves and how you both found love.

What is story?

I think I'll start with it because.

So three years ago, my husband of sixty years died of staff infection after a surgery. And I'm a psychologist and I've been practicing for forty years, and I had all sorts of advice for myself, but anyway.

I am following it.

I got into a grief group.

Of course.

There I met a guy, Steve, whose wife had died two days after Phil. And he's an avid golfer and I am an avid golfer. And we just went golfing every day with this guy that all mad golfing through grief. Well, after a book months we started living together and Steve and I and then we had Christmas come and I had twenty seven family members all go to Hawaii together with.

Steve and I.

He ghost.

And I stayed a little longer, and he sent me an email saying, you know, I can't handle this. I'm leaving the key to the house. We had to joint bank and the money's on the calendra. I'm leaving the key to the house.

Then my jaw is on the floor.

Steve, oh dish me.

So I'm in Pellow, I mean in Hawaii, in a hotel room, and I get COVID. So I've had out. I had COVID, So I thought, well, what am I going to do? I think I'll write a book for widows because I've learned so much from this crazy relationship and all the stuff that widows go through.

Then I'm going to write a book on widows.

Well, it turns out that Steve had told me that he had done some online dating and had met some other women online, although he made me in a grief group. So I thought, I got to go online. If I'm going to write a book for widows. I don't know, and I've never been online, never thought about it, never, But I've got to do it. So I'm in the room and I type away and I sign up for Silver Singles, the one that came up for people who are over fifty, which I'm way over a few years.

The other one was named Dave, and he was a shriner and had Dave on this when he met her for a topic. After that, I looked pretty good.

A prince, a prince to go.

Yeah, so I went online and Frank and I texted a little bit. But we suggest you don't spend a lot of time with people before you meet them, you know, online, unless you liked it.

We both had website, so we knew that we were a little bit legitimate.

So yeah, he's I agree with you take it offline as soon as you came.

He's a sculptor as well as a psychologist. So anyway, we met, went to the Grassroots restaurant and I was staying with my sister for a year.

I don't know if you guys have had any experience with online dating, but a lot of time is the people's profile and a way in which they talk on the phone is quite different when you meet them in person. Wow, this is on one of my first experiences where she looked better than her from Oh my god, I've got to do something and then she tells me that the only reason she's there is because she's writing a book.

He's not really, I'm not really joining by the way.

You were being used, Frank.

I was prestfallen for about ten minutes, and I realized, Hey, we're having too much fun this. You know, this might be more than just research.

I love it so how quickly after that first date was this, Oh.

My gosh, to get married after two weeks and my daughter's she.

Was having surgery, shoulder surgery two days after I met her. So I really, in a sense weaseled my way in by being a big hairtaker for her while she had her surge, taking these places, I know, entertaining her all about Arizona because she didn't know much about Arizona.

And Frank, were you are you?

Were you divorced for about a year and a half, and I was kind of dis.

Yeah, and I thought, oh, well, I had some luck meeting people, good people on sober singles in the past, so I'll go back on one last try.

Thank god it worked out perfectly.

Thank God.

I'm interested. You know, you both have two very different yet similar experiences. What differences have you found in your research from those that are widowers as opposed to just divorced.

There is some differences. That's very soon on your part. There there are several differences because divorce has one connotation within society and divorce has another.

You know, it's a lot smoother for widows and it is for divorces because everybody feels.

Sorry for you. They'll invite you out, you know.

I know eventually the widows say that the couples don't want to invite him anymore because unfortunately.

Dirses have a failure kind of attached to them.

Well, that's what's funny is we just assumed that the widower had this great love affair, and if it wasn't it wonderful perfect.

I was married for sixty years to the most perfect person exactly. Although I will tell you my husband, before he died, give me he said to me, you know, Gloria, you're going to be with someone else, because we knew he was in big trouble. And I said, no, no, no, He said, I am telling you you are going to be Phil was a special guy.

He was.

You know, I never thought i'd find two loves of my life.

I have good answer, good answer that you know, Gloria, can I go back to the ghoster for a second, Steve, Because my mom is a widow and she also joined a grief group and she didn't do it, but she said, I was so surprised by how many people in the grief group started dating each other.

So do you think that, like.

Like, I mean, I'm not okay with Steve ghosting you the way he did, But do you do you think maybe like do you have a thought in your head, especially being a psychologist, of maybe he thought maybe I rushed into this too quickly? Or what is your recommendation from your professional perspective on people meeting in that way and what kind of stay?

Can I tell you I broke all my own rules. I lived there those for forty years. My advice is number one, don't do anything for the first year. Well, I owned a house in Carmela, California, and I sold it within months. And yeah, after Phil passed away, and I would have always said don't date. But I will tell you meeting somebody in a grief group and grieving

I'm very grateful to see because I really think he helped set up the situation because I probably would have been very leary knowing that she had only been grieving for a short period of time.

Right, You're thinking, is she in the right place for a relationship?

The energy is all eaten up by the process of adjustment to the loss, and it's awful. It is awful.

I had a special circumstance. Also, you know, I started a foundation called Open to Hope for helping people find hope after loss, which is related to the death of my son when he was seventeen in an automobile absent. So I actually had had a really profound loss, and I think that makes the difference. You know, what has

And yeah, stepping Stone, Steve, thank you.

Well.

He came to a presentation with us and afterward and we did a Senior Center presentation that's where we saw him, and afterward he said, you know, you got to give me credit for this book.

So you know, it just depends. But my wonderful Sage advice was.

Don't do anything for the first year, don't make any big moves, you know, probably don't want to.

Date and all that.

And and I actually worked for you.

Yeah, and so are you glad you broke all your own rules? And do you still give that advice or has it changed?

Oh my god, I just.

I'm it has worked out so well for me breaking all the rules of me.

But do you still do you still give that advice like don't do anything for the first year, or has that changed now because you've got a new book of advice coming out.

I would say you need to think about it. I mean, you need to just think about it.

It's very individual.

Yeah, you need to weigh back and forth. I mean, you just don't know what people have been through. And also we've got a special factor is the fact that I'm eighty four in francs eighty and so we have not a lot of years left.

Time is of the essence.

Oh, I thought you were just saying, you know, I thought you were about to say, because so I'm doing a younger guy.

So you know I.

Have a cougar.

In your research. I'm curious what you found and what you have both found. As people get older, we add excuses to not find love again, to not get back out there, of like I'm happy, I don't need this, i don't want.

To deal with somebody else. I've got my life.

I don't want someone to my stuff. Let's start breaking down some of these barriers of why we should get back in the game and find love and find campaigns.

You know, for women, I hear so many widowed women make this statement. There's a little thing called I don't want to be a nurse or a purse, big concern.

I know someone who says that exact line, Chris is mom.

I'm going to call her out.

We can even just say it's my mom.

Yeah, she is not a widower, but she says that statement all the time.

I can't believe you just said that. She says it all the time.

Okay, let's break that. Let's break that down.

Okay, Well, here's the deal.

There are male and female nurses, and society wants women to take over those roles. And you know, for sixty years, my husband had had like seven back surgeries, so I was in that role. So Frank and I have been really clear with him that I do not.

Want to be We do not want caretaker syndrome. And that's a very serious problem for seniors, particularly falling into that role. Because my aunt, who absolutely adored with my second mother, took care of my uncle and she was a lovely lady, but caretaker syndrome made her into a shrew. She was awful. I couldn't be around them, and here was a trained therapist, and I could not help the two of them because caretaker syndrome is really.

I think you're shedding.

You're already answering a question that we wanted to ask you, guys, So I'm glad you are, which is like we were just talking about how before you get into a relationship. You know, we counsel our college kids on this. You talk about do we want to have kids? Where do you kind of see yourself living? What do you and what you guys are getting into it sounds like is at an older age?

What are those deal breakers?

What are those conversations you have before you enter a relationship.

Absolutely, I'll tell you what happened with Frank and I Frank needs knee surgery. Okay, He's going to have a total needs replacement, and so we have decided that he will not I will not take care of him. He will hire nurses to take care of him, and so we but the healthcare system does not want that to happen.

And they're like, she got really criticized because she was not going to take care of me. And I was sitting there listening to this doctor goes through this thing about God.

He'll do much better at home.

We've got research that I care too much about the relationship. I don't want to put it in jeopardy.

So so I decide I get a hold of my girlfriend. Frank's gonna have knee surgery right over Christmas. Okay, So I get a hold of my girlfriend and we buy tickets to Hawaii.

So and Frank.

Tells the guy at the hospital like, well, isn't your fiance going to take care of you?

And Frank says, her mother died.

I had to figure something really quick.

Great, my mother is one hundred and twelve.

Yeah she's doing great.

Wow.

Critical tell critical lies, okay, good advice, tell strategic lies.

So my girlfriend and I go to Hawaii. Five o'clock in the morning. I get a telephone call. I wake up. It's Frank. He says, you're not going to believe this. They took me in the gjourney to the to do this.

So I had an IVY in. I was ten feet from the surgery room.

Anisthesiologist says, Oh no, we can't do it today.

Sorry, you too high.

Oh no, she's in Hawaii.

So I hope you bought a ticket Christmas.

Christmas in Hawaii. I did come back and move it.

But he's going to have it in April in Arizona, which is hot. I'm going to go to California, I said, But this time, Frank, I'm going to drive to California because I want to take you to the to.

The Oh yeah, she wants to make sure I.

Did roll you into the operating room and I will roll off to the parking lot.

To day theologist anymore.

I feel like I just saw this is like took me back to the friend's episode, it's like, you know, when she wanted to make sure Chandler was off to Yemen. I want to see you get on the plane and go to Yemen.

So one of those it sounds like one thing you push people past is this concern of the nurse or the purse and that you found real world ways of being like, look, we're gonna get a different We're going to do a different thing. What are some of the other barriers you see with people finding love?

Let me say one thing about the purse first, because this is the money thing is big.

It is big.

It's big for your kids, it's big for the world. Nobody is going to date somebody who has exactly the same amount of money in their bank account.

And it's usually not romantic to talk about money when you're dating and stuff like that. But if you want the relationships your last, you have to deal with the issue if there's a difference in the amount of money that we have, and that in most cases there is going to be a little bit of a difference, and how do you want to deal with that? You how And that's one of the issues that comes up again is for people our age is do you get married, or you do not, you know, because what is the

However, however, that being said, because of my cultural background, which is very conservative, I thought we should get married. Yeah, like, and so we do have a prenup and a marriage license.

The case, well, I know, inefficient you need to do.

Yeah, exactly, I can be out there. I'd say we go back to Hawaii. By the way, so you mentioned the nurse perse thing and we have kind of done away with that. What are some other big hurdles that you see that keep people from getting back into finding.

Alone in the process. One of the things we recommend is a dating buddy.

Yes, oh, interesting, Okay.

You really shouldn't enter the dating process without some kind of support. And we in our book talk about the issue of making sure that if you're going to be dating, that you get a dating buddy. And the interesting thing is your children are usually not the best ones.

Now grandchildren, grandchildren can be fun.

And friends who have done online or are tried other dating processes so that they can really be supported.

Yeah, young people are great, yes, yes.

With the online process because a lot of times you have these apps, these dating apps.

Yeah, so is that it is?

I was wire our grandchildren better than children? Is it a technology?

Well?

That and they're willing to laugh with you and look through the pictures. My granddaughter said to me after Phil died, there was a friend of mine who's an archaeologist took us around Utah and she could see that we were really friendly, friendly, and she's like, Grandma, are you sure you don't want to play the field, And I said, Eliza, at my age, there is no fields.

It's a path. I'm on the path.

Online dating.

It's fifty to fifty men and women where as the world.

Eighty percent of women much better Mormon more men Blideline.

Yes.

So the interesting thing is I've had this discussion again with my mom. Sorry to keep going back to her, but about being online, and it is I don't care what age you are A it's in tim dating it can be you know, it's like a job interview, over and over and over. There is there any advice to getting online of how you can make it easier, how you can make it fun, because that's the end of the day. It's like, you want this to be exciting and fun.

Exactly, that's what you're great, I said dating Boddy, because you need someone to laugh with and someone think, somebody that you can call at ten o'clock at night.

Exactly, Oh did you see this guy I went out and had coffee with?

Oh?

What?

In Kirk, I've always said anytime I've encouraged someone to be dating, I'm like, what difference does it make if you get rejected? You probably never have to see this person again, and you got a great story out of it, Like it's more for the memoir. But I do think the rejection part can be tough, you know. It's so, how do you have any advice on that or what your experiences were like with rejection online.

All the experiences where you meet someone for coffee and you find that there's some inner and you really want to see that for a second date, and you have a third, fourth date, maybe even date for a month or longer, and all of a sudden there's some issue that comes up and you know that this isn't going to be the person. Okay. We call those almost experiences.

Keep your profile tied, I mean, tell people what you want. If this isn't like when you're young and you're saying, oh I can do this and I can do that, and I'm cute and I'm open to everything.

You're not open to everything anymore. Now, what is it you like?

If you want somebody who's financial respon, well, I take care of myself. I expect you to take care of yourself. I like the golf and you better know how to golf.

Yeah, what what medications are you on? And I want to know what your medical history is? We have the all times of our gene.

And you know, I want somebody that's drink. I mean you can have you can see what.

You want well and being honest about I would think about I'm looking for something serious. I'm curious where intimacy comes into this. Is it is?

That?

Is that also like, hey, I'm I'm still willing and able to have.

Such I'm sure please educate us because we don't know and we don't do a whole chapter.

We have a chapter called Through the Bedroom Door. But the reality is, and that's that was one of my biggest revelations is that sex ain't what it used to be.

That's right. It's really different and if you're not mature about it, you're going to have a hard time finding someone that you're going to be able to connect up with.

Yeah, well I think that would be. And the reason I asked in all seriousness, I know we joke about sex and it gets kind of oh, I'm uncomfortable, But the reason I'm asking you. I've talked to too many people and I'm taking them off the off the hook. I've talked to others as well that are just like, honestly, I haven't had sex in twenty years and I just

Thing is sex is not just the intercourse. Yeah, that's the point.

You know, that's a big piece because touch, human touch is really kind of important, and being able to the title and connect in bed and have pillow talk and all of those kind of things is really hard or sex, and we need to see it that way, that this is a sexual intimate connection and that you want that connection. And if you want that connection, it's going to probably add seven years of life for you, because people who are married, even when the relationship isn't perfect, tend to

There's something called golmonic skin response, and that is why if you even hold yourself like a baby and.

Rock brain chemistry.

You know, you wrub your hands together, you hold somebody else's hand, I mean it changes your brain chemistry.

Yes.

I read the other day this study kind of went everywhere that we need eight hugs a day on average, people need eight hugs a day just to maintain kind.

Of a healthy way of life.

And it was like twelve hugs a day from emotional growth or something. But I think about that with you know people who and everybody has somebody in their family who's older and alone. They're not getting that physical touch.

Is mental health issue? Is loneliness for the ages?

Yes, But you know it's interesting, I said to Frank. We read all these loneliness studies and they're zillion of them, but I don't hear them saying anything about dating or.

Finding another relationship.

They're always, you know, do this group, or you know, do this whatever. You know, when you sign up for online dating and you give that money, there's a little gland in your brain called the amygdala, and the amigdala says, hey, we're dating. You go in a room, you look around differently, and you dress differently.

It's exciting and I like that.

The the other excuse I know is Look, I'm in my seventies. You know, we talk about people, you know, I know this app you guys are talking about as people fifty and above. Well, I mean I think we go much older than that now, and people that are in their seventies like, oh, you know what, it's it's easy to feel like that ship is sailed. And I love that. You guys are clearly in your eighties. It's like, yeah, that ship is not sailed.

I love that.

By the way, can you tell us you mentioned Silver Single? Would you recommend that is? Were there dating apps or sites that you liked or didn't like? And what also blows my mind? And I'll be honest now, I have been trying to get Chris's mom to set up a dating profile. But what kind of blew my mind is like every site says fifty and above and I'm sitting there thinking that is such a wide age.

Range, isn't it.

Do you guys have thoughts on how dating online could be better or sites that you liked more than others?

I just went on a Silver Singles.

I was lucky to hit one that you know, was easy for me, that I was able to do and I met Frank, so that you've been on more sides than I have.

Frank I left.

There are several that are fairly good for seniors, and we have that in our book, and you know, Zeus is also when it's fairly good, plenty of fish stuff like that. The thing is that everybody needs to get onto an internet thing do the process because people are our age are not used to doing that dating online,

Yeah, and they'll support you and laugh with you, and you know, you know, I think that maybe your mother in lond needs to find another dating Betty beside you.

The reason is because in the long term, you're not going to get excited about her romance.

Can I say, And you're not, I actually will, Chris might not, I say, you know, I'm like, well, it might be. I'm like, Chris, I don't, honey, I'm not out there trying to find you a new dad.

This might be weird, but I was swiping. I'm looking, I'm into it.

Well, here's the thing, and this this goes to the the kids of it all. Now your kids are like, I want my mom to find somebody. I want her to be in love. I want I want that companionship. At the same time, I don't want to be her dating buddy. I don't want to get into the intimacy of this, Like you know, there needs to be a little separation of church and state. Of course, Yes, even.

Though she's actually pretty willing to crack a sex choke.

We were. She'll tell you how long it's been since she's had a hookup, and and Chris goes, oh god, oh god, it's.

Very rare that somebody has a more qualified son than me. As far as finding love. So that's I think this is kind of this weird anomaly in life where you had a guy who did it for twenty years professionally. But I think even still there needs to be a little separation of church and state. But Babe, I just realized, I think you are my mom's I think.

I were dating buddy. Yes, your daughter Taylor as well.

That's wonderful when it can happen, But I'll tell you, I think that it's more rare.

Can I ask a specific question and everybody has to go get the book because just this little taste is making me. I'm ordering this book for Chris's mom, I'm ordering it for his aunt.

I'm getting this. But what is the difference then.

Because this is because I will say I never did the online dating thing, and I've talked to some of my friends about, like, you know, I think there you guys just gave the advice of make sure your profile is really full, for example, as someone who's dating older literally with your online profile, like what do you tell is there some should they take certain types of pictures?

Are there? Is there a.

Certain way you might want to word your profile so it's more accessible and gets better responses. What's some of that specific online dating advice.

I think one thing, it's really important to know what you want first and who you are, and we talk about that in the first chapter of the book. Make a list of what's worked for you in relationships and what hasn't.

Then that can get you set.

So I can give you a lot of good information, especially and since you have more experience when you're older. Use that experience is to help you understand what works for you and what does not. Because when you're thirty and you get into a relationship, you have a lot of time to work out differences, and a lot of times younger relationships in their twenties and thirties, difference actually attracts. You know, you want someone who's going to bring something

So if you've thought about who you are before you start on the profile and what it is you want, then you can start plugging in this is what I want. It's important that they're financially responsible. I want a long term relationship. I want somebody that I can really live with. Or maybe I don't want to live with somebody. I would just like to have a friendship. You know, you can put those things in there.

Yeah, so be honest, know who you are and know what you want. You guys have been so wonderful. And I want to leave you with one more question, because you've both been through it all, what dating advice would you give your younger selves if you could tell them anything. Since we have a mountain of wisdom in these two professionals, right, I.

Would say to people, grow through your setbacks and don't give up finding the one.

Yeah, I don't think of failures, think of Hey, now I'm a better consumer, I'm a better judge of things. I have this experience, and that experience is worthwhile. It's incredible, and not all experiences are good. Some of them you don't like, but those are teachers and use them now.

Yeah, and there's something called post traumatic growth. We like to talk about post traumatic stress, but there has been information to look at post traumatic growth. People who have been through trauma or have things happen in their lives, have a lot of really fine qualities of introspection.

Yes, doctor Gloria Horseley, doctor Frank Powers, not just talkings. It's great, They're not They're not there. It's like I'm not just an extra the owner.

I'm literally leaving this podcast feeling so happy right now because I have watched you to giggle with each other, hug each other on the screen, heard the love and the joy and the laughter and your voice. I am walking away feeling hopeful and excited, and I'm about to buy Open to Love The Secrets of Senior Dating. It's going to be available on Amazon on appropriately Valentine's time.

I mean, come on, can we go on a double date with you too? Forever?

In anytime you're in town or in Pallo Author or San Francisco.

We're there.

We're available because we believe in it so much.

We actually hey, we're happy to have your mother in lawns our Dating beddy.

Yes, this is perfect, amazing, We've gotten so much done today. Thank you both, what a joy to meet you, and thank you for all of your wisdom and yeah, positivity and hopefulness.

Thanks Christens Fun, Thanks for listening, Follow us on Instagram at the most dramatic pod ever, and make sure to write us a review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you next time.