And now The Money Show with Stephen Credits on seven O two.
Let's walk little.
The Money Show with Stephen Curtis has brought to you by Absters CIB, proud sponsor of the Sarah Rail Conference twenty twenty five, Powering Progress, Connecting Economies. Good evening, Welcome to the program. Eight minutes after six. I'm Stephen Curtis. Plenty to come be in a busy day on the Stock Exchange News Service today as several big companies and institutions and soees and call them what you will or
delivering or sending publishing results and updates. Just one of those mondays, Sasil, probably the biggest of the bunch, and we'll speak to their CEO as Simon Beloy in just a moment. I was fascinated by Advertecs results because they seem to be growing the number of learners at their schools in South Africa, while KRO seems to be going in the other way, and I'm not sure why that is, what exactly is going on there? Jeff White, the CEO at Advertec, he'll be on your radio in a little while.
Meryll Pick will be taking you through some of the market movements and pull me in Porfu at the CEO at airport's company, South Africa, plenty to say. I think about their results, blockbuster results, to be fair, one point one billion rands worth of profit are coming from airport's company South Africa. And we'll talk a little bit about tax towards the end of the hour as well, and taxing cryptocurrencies and sars. Looking at that, I was very
interested in some of the numbers. I don't know what your experience of going through our airports has been recently, and unless you go through Lansia or one or two of the others, you're probably almost certainly going through an airport which is controlled owned, run by airport's company, South Africa, technically part of government. And my own personal view is that things are fine, but I kind of wonder in two years time, is it just does it need a
bit of maintenance, a bit of work now then? And pull me in Porfu the CEO and ACCE just making the point they're going to spend twenty billion rounds and on airports over the next five years. I mean that's a huge amount of money. I do wonder where it's going. And when I look at how their revenue is up.
And if you've been listening to me long enough, you'll know that paying for parking I find particularly aggravating and I will be sure to throw in a question like that as a standard to see that forty nine percent of access income does not come from aeronautical matters. It doesn't come from landing, managing and helping planes take off. It comes from other things that comes from parking fees and from rent. So your experience please of our airports.
And if you're twenty billion rand to spend, which airport would you spend it on and what would it be for? Would it just be to subsidize I don't know, free parking at our tumba, which is probably where I would put it. I know for some people in the business, they'll talk about air bridges, the bridge that connects your plane to the airport so you can get out quickly,
making that work. There are other things, of course, But where would you spend your money twenty billion rand and you had to spend it at South African airports?
What would you do with it?
Good year from you tonight on O double one double A three oh seven O two two one four four six five six, seven and voice notes this evening on O seven two seven oh two one seven oh two seven two.
That's on the Money Show six to eight pm.
Well, strong results from Sassel swinging back into profit in the last financial year to the end of June. It's headline earning's doubling to twenty two billion Rand. Some of that is non recurring items as a settlement with trans Nett. There's a big reduction in provisions for environmental rehabilitation. The company's turnover down nine percent. It's eb dah At down fourteen percent. The president and CEO at Sasil is Simon Beloys. Simon, good evening, welcome back to the Money Show, and thank
you for your time. I suppose it's kind of in the nature of the businesses that you're in that lower oil prices in particular will have a big impact on you. There's still problems at Sekunda and sasas. All in all, it's been a little bit of a rough ride off and through things not of your making.
Everything Stephen and evening to your listeners, Yes, I mean we we did fire. I mean we did face macroeconomic conditions this year. You've already mentioned the rent all price and the refining imagines. There are some volume challenges as well that you encountered. However, despite that, I mean, teams are all delivered a strong set of results. I mean
in terms of focusing on what we can control. So so we made sure in terms of the free cash flow, I may not be standing the trans neest settlement, even if you normalize for that, our free cash flow is actually up thirty percent without the transit settlement, and with that it takes us to seventy five percent. So it's just good overall focused from the team in terms of the cash fixed cost as well, where we were just below seventy billion rents, which means one one person sent
up a year year and beat inflation. So so I mean we placed with feel the results.
You've been through a process of resetting your international chemicals division. That's quite a tricky time. How different do you expect that division to look over the next few years? What are you going to be doing.
In the international chemicalst space? You correct, we'll busy with a reset. You remember in f for twenty four our Abita adjusted a bit there from that business was two hundred and eighty eight million dollars and we did give a target that by for twenty eight we want to be at between seven hundred and fifty to eight hundred and fifty million years dollars. We did guide that by the end of this year we wanted to send uplifts between one hundred and two hundred and we ended up
one hundred and twenty million billion dollars. I mean, in line with our guidance. And the key foocust is there there's three key levers that're using. Is the is the market focus, so we focused on the markets and the markets that we serve. Then aset optimization, I did previously speak about asset optimization as a tool where we're most
bowling or closing non value adding assets. And finally, cost discipline, so extreme cost discipline to make sure that I mean both our costs in terms of our input costs and operating cost is under control. So so those three key livers are helping as if you look at the uplift in terms of value outs at seventy percent is self help measures. And then we did get some mean maget tail winds in terms of Italy and the price of
Kennel oil, which are facts. The overall pricing of suffectants, but seventy percent was our own focus.
You focus, actually you say you try to keep costs. You spend a lot of focus on keeping costs down across the group. You kept them below inflation, which is quite low at the moment. I mean, I would imagine it's quite tough to get to get any more value out of that. I mean, are you kind of at the end of what you can cut?
We we We not at the end. I mean we will continue. Remember us we guide us through Capital Markets Day that in the next three years I mean across the whole group, we want to take out between ten to fifteen I mean billion rants I mean in our cost base. So so we will do that, which means we have to run ahead of inflation. So the continual focus on commercial and supply chain excellence that is going
to continue. We were going to be at least ruthless in our focus on making sure that the WAA is I mean the course that we pay to our suppliers, that that is fire and it's a win win situation for both us and the suppliers.
Your share price is up over twenty five percent over the last six months, and was up I think almost eleven just every eleven percent today, Simon, there is still quite a lot of ground to make up if you look at sort of what's happened over the last twelve months. Do you think invest are sold on your vision of the Sassle of the future. Do you think, I mean, you're the Capital Markets stay very well received, you've had
today's results. Do you think a vest are sold, are buying what you're selling in terms of the vision?
Yes. During Capital Markets Day, we clearly I mean demonstrated when we unvail our strategy that we understand I mean the challenges that the group faces. We have clear plans to address those challenges. We did give both medium and long term targets, and we've also shown how to measure those targets every year, so we've translated those targets into
clear priorities. I did commit a Capital Markets there to give regular feedback on how we're taking and today was I mean one of those proof points where where we're showing that we're not where we need to be, because we did indicate that it's a journey, but we are on track with what we promised.
There are many different changes that you're navigating at the moment in lots of different directions. Do you think the cessol of the twenty thirties is going to employ the same number of people as it does now? Or do you think that your your workforce is going to come down significantly.
As the group grows I mean as I mean like any arabs, and as the group grows, you have to I mean make sure that your input costs are under
street control. So so what we're going to do, I mean post twenty thirty, we have to make sure as we take advantages of technology, we take advantages of the changing landscape, I mean as we grow into I mean if you look at the energy transition, as that unfolds, we then have to make sure that we've got I mean optimum We've got the optimum number of people and technologies that
we need to perform our activities. So so I'll say, I mean we've demonstrated over the last two years that we've kept I mean our labor total labor force, I mean under coming. You really look at it, results you to see that almost yea and yeah, for two years in a row we've kept our labor they say most likely decreased. So yeah, we will have to make sure that we keep I mean our libor cost under control as well.
Simon Beloit, thank you so much, present and CEO at SASEL. Eighteen minutes now after six the money show with the education company Advertec reporting its revenue are by ten percent for the six months to the end of drone, driven mainly by its education division is growing very nicely. Across the rest of Africa. It's South African division growing too. Its operating profit was up fourteen percent, but not quite as strongly as the rest of our continent. Jeff White
as the CEO at Advertec, Jeff, good evening. There's been and I'm sure you've seen this, there's been a lot of talk in the last couple of weeks about the declining purchasing power of the middle classes. What's happening with your schools in South Africa? You actually describe your enrollment figures. The word you used was robust.
Yes, now listen, I think there's no doubt that the South African economy is under pressure and parents are feeling the strain economically. And I think from our point of view, we've been making investments into people's systems and facilities to deliver superior experiences and academic outcomes to our students. We think that's what's driving our enrollment growth and that provides us with a great base for the financial performance that we announced today.
You refer to a focus on collection processes. Are some people battling to pay their fees? You have to spend a little bit more time getting your money collecting.
Actually that's a reference to centralizing of debtor management and we're trying to make the process smoother and a better experience for parents. And the progress that we've made there, I think is driving that improved performance on the debtor's book.
Okay, do you think there's still then you talking about your product, of course, but do you think there's still room for growth in the sort of independent school sector in South Africa despite the economy you described.
Yeah, I mean we're still seeing population growth. I think you're the tail wind of population growth on the headwind of economic growth. Overall South African schools enrollments who up four percent year on you. It's got a strong number of a big base, so we think there's still potential for growth. But you've got those two competing forces.
Are some of the people, maybe some of the learners is it their first time in an independent school, or are they coming to you from other providers who reported last week that their enrollments are down slightly.
You know, I think if you look at the published data, then we're definitely going market share, and that has to be coming from somewhere.
Okay, Jeff, you're you're very polite. There's a lot of growth happening in the rest of Africa, obviously, I mean you're enrollment there was a much much more strongly clearly a lot of investment there and from what I can see, it must be doing quite nicely.
Yes, you know, I think the underlying organic growth was strong in Africa, but we also benefited from the acquisition of the Flipper Schools Group in Ethiopia, which supported the numbers. But we've seen a very positive start to that ownership of the Flipper Schools Group since we acquired it in November of last year. In Roman's already grown by five percent, so that bodes well for the future. And mckeinney and Keny are doing very well. Crawford International and Keny you're
doing very well. The Gaban International School was almost a capacity, so across our African schools we're seeing strong demand for well regarded brands, and our biggest challenge there is adding capacity to meet the demand for further enrollments.
Do you think you're going to see I mean, clearly there's more room for growth in those markets than in our markets, and I imagine that's where you're going to be looking to for growth to an extent.
Yeah, I mean, I think you've got high GDP growth in the markets that we're in the South Africa, which is a fairly low bar as we all know, and you've also got strong population growth and I think typically a less developed education sector. So I think for us with strong brands and to be able to support various functions from South Africa, that makes those African markets very attractive.
You've finished your relocation of the Rosebank College in Cape Town, but I'm very interested in your new property in Grayston Drive and Sanson. What kind of vision do you have for that? I mean, you call it a sort of it's going to have nine thousand people on that campus. What are we going to be looking at you?
Well, we're relocating our Vaga Bordeaux and Varsity College Santsin campuses to the new site in Grayston. We're building actually a magnificent new university campus there which we'll have world class teaching and learning and recreational facilities. So work is happening puriously on that site, but I can't for the
world to see it. It really is a beautiful project. It will double our current capacity in those two institutions in their current locations from four and a half thousand to nine thousand, but the ultimate capacity on that site is probably twelve or thirteen thousand, so we've also got lots of headroom for future growth.
I mean, the real test of tertiary education now is will it get my kid a job?
Right?
And I think that's what parents of teenage children go to bed at night, thinking what's going to happen to them after school? Because that getting into a job is so tight. Does that mean you have to pay a bit more attention to what you're actually teaching? And Jeff, feel free to use the words AI if you need to.
Listen. I think two things are critical. I think students want to know that they're going to be supported to finish their degree and the time is supposed to take,
it's not going to take multiple years more. And they need to get a job at the end of it, and we're very focused on offering degrees that are linked to job market demands, but we also invest heavily in industry links to help students build those very important connections, and a significant time and effort goes into career services to help place students at the end of their degree.
And we believe that our placement record is actually significantly better than the public sector, and that's a start that we're very proud of.
I mean, if you look at population growth, the pressure just to get into universities, the difficulties that we see in our society, I mean, the scope for growth for a group like yours must be vasked.
Yeah, I mean I think you know, you've got that demographic fill wind I touched on before in the tertiary sector. You've also got a significant impact of that imbalance of supplying demand in university places in the public sector. So you know, if we're in a positions where we can grow market share, which we believe we're doing in a growing market driven by demographics and that imbalance of supply and demand, that's a very exciting place for us to be.
Jeff, Why, thanks very much. Indeed, the CEO at ADVID take you with the Money Show twenty five minutes after six. Your thoughts on what you want your young teenager or older teenager, your teenager to actually study, what's going to get them a job after school would be my question. O double one, double A three oh seven two two one four four six five sixty seven The Money Show, the market, Meryl Pecker's portfolio manager at Old Mutual Investments
at Meryl. Good evening, Let's just pick up on advit tech very quickly. I mean, quite a strong update if you look at what Jeff White was saying.
There, absolutely good evening and grieving to your listeners. I think interestingly though, to look at the growth in rest of Africa versus South Africa. You can see that at the moment, I mean, sixteenth cent elearning's growth is is quite something in this market, but a lot of that growth is coming outside of South Africa at this point,
and the essay market becoming more competitive. But you know, I think if you look at VATCH for some time, this story was we've invested in schools, we need to move along the jacob as we saw those schools and they have delivered on that. The return on equity has increased in line with that switching their asset bates more. You know, the sixteen historic price to earning ratio. It's it's not cheap, but it has delivered quite solid earnings growth and improving returns for the last few years.
It does seem to be onto something Sasol. You would have heard Simon Belloy earlier. Do you think investors have bought the vision of the kind of a new seil? Certainly that share price up very strongly today.
It is up today quite strongly. I think you need to zoom out to see how low the bases.
You know.
So so I think a year ago the market was pricing in the rights offer a better and sheets on a knife edge once again. But if we look at twenty nineteen and before the kind of sassile price versus the Brent rand brent oil price, that relationship has still got quite a long way to recover to historic norms. And I think systematically that the company is starting to
address the reasons that could have caused that decoupling. Number One, the balance sheet, you know, the free cash for even if you take the transmit one source wind fall out, free cash flow was still up fifteen percent roughly in a year where the rand or price is actually down, so they did very well to keep costs going backwards. Actually in real time, they cut their costs tied to work in capital management and cost control at these difficult
decisions about mossballing, cash burning and loss making assets. For sure, So from twenty nineteen things potativety couple because of more or scrutiny on climate change and how they would need to invest to address that. I think the capital markets say they've given the market certainty that or clarity that they're not going to invest on this is a return and they're going to be more pragmatic. They've taken action on some of this lost making stuff in the US
and then the balance sheet. I think if they can get back to a position where they actually are paying dividends again, you know you could see more out of out of fattle, but they need to keep not delivering on the cost cutting on capital capics, spend discipline. So I think the market is starting to pay attention again. It's been vastly unloved.
So it could be more.
It's our tile kind of really telling us something. I think where you know their their profits weren't rarely up by match at all, and in fact their earnings weren't very strong. But they're still paying back a cash dividend. They're cash which but they're deciding. I mean, this seems to me to be a deliberate decision and possibly for shareholders, a responsible one. They've decided not to invest in the economy.
Mm yeah, I mean, reading through the statement, it really is the definition of a management team that is trying to that is excelling at controlling what is in their control. You know, costs have gone backwards, not in realms, nominal terms, for actually such absolute costs. The working capital management was
was very well controlled and hence cash generation continues. But they speak of that over capacity in manufacturing, the you know, imports without any protection where the neighboring countries are putting on protection. So basically they're saying the policy environment is not encouraging them to invest. Be it energy costs, be it kind of tariff and duty structures for municipal management and costs. And it's difficult to argue with that.
Sure, Yeah, no it is. Meryl Peck, thank you so much, portfolio manager at the old Mutual Investment Group. But you're the Money show just gone seven point thirty.
What have to.
Stephens on seven two seven oh two one seven oh two.
Twelve minutes to seven the time. Well, big profits for airport's companies South Africa. Their highest profits ever. That made one point one billion Rand for the financial year to the end of March. They're also planning a huge amount of spending over the next five years. And when I say a huge amount, I mean twenty one billion Rand. And put me in poortfo Is on the line for you. She is the CEO at Actor and put me good evening. Just a moment ago, I asked people for their thoughts
their experiences of going through some of the airports. Let's listen to those quickly.
Hey, this is John from Randberg. I'm so glad you're talking about this issue of the airports. I've been through job through our Timber International Airport a couple of times recently, and I have to say it's a horrible experience arriving in South Africa. Can't imagine what it must be like for tourists coming in and being faced with grumpy staff. Often is the case. Often the immigration has a long
queuemann by very few people. Then you get through security control and somebody wants you to give them a tip for cleaning the bathroom when actually the whole bathroom stinks of urine. And then going through customs this last time there was a massive delay, nobody explaining why there should
be a delay through the green customs line. Managing all of this and creating a great experience for tourists, for business people, for people coming back home from holidays, et cetera, should be a top priority for us, and where I would spend the money.
Hi, Stephen, it's anonymous here in Midrand. The airport look very s titty, especially all.
Our time or internationally.
It looks steaty, It looks worn out. It is in need of a serious refm. It's actually an embarrassment walking through the international side of the airport and seeing all of that. It just gives an impression that oil is not good and well in terms of accent managing the airport, it needs significant improvement.
All right, Well, listening to your voice notes this evening and put me in pull through the CEO at access and put me good evening. You do mention operational headwinds in your results today, and I imagine that's sort of what you were talking about, there are one or two difficulties.
Yes, No, absolutely, Stephen, and thank you very much. As we sit celebrating the achievement the one point one billion and the first time we're paying dividends or the second time we're paying dividends to our shareholders of three hundred and ten million, we reflect on the operational challenges and the headwind sase and part of that has been a deteriorating asset base and infrastructure to which we've committed twenty one billion for seventy percent of which, excuse me, is
going to be spent on the rehabilitation and refurbishment that will address exactly some of the issues that are raised. And those issues are the issues that are within the control of AKSA, the condition of the building, lightning up, et cetera. But we normally say it seven. We run a very complex business and a complex environment. The parts of our timber, particularly there are not so bright. Duck and dingy. Actually, the old Chance match now I can't remember.
I don't know how many people remember what Chancemark Airport was like then, because what's happened in the airport expansion is literally we've expanded from one part of the airport to the other developing newer elements. And that's what happens when you do a what's called a round field development.
You increasingly are dealing with old parts of an airport starting to deteriorate, infrastructure, getting one out, even problems, operational problems emerging in those, and then you're expand into the newer parts which basically can sustain higher traffic, faster passenger efficiency, processing, etc. So the dedication we've made of the seventy percent of the twenty one pillion to that rehabilitation is really intended for those old parts of oatambo that basically will be
brought up to modern high tech and similar to the other parts, but also similar to global practices. They may also indicate in terms of what the two callers have indicated, there are certain parts that are operated by ACCESS, so accessor company that's responsible for airport operations generally, but we are legislated to run the airport, but we are not legislated to do other parts that for which legislation exists.
In other areas.
So Immigration is the Department of hom Affairs function. We know that they establish a new organization called Border Management Authority and Border Management Authority has been challenged with low budgets until I don't know, maybe next year they do better, and they're still struggling with budgets to facilitate the deployment of more people on arrival. You see, there's an initiative in Cape Town where even the city is assisting with
deploying immigration officers in order to alleviate the problem. And we hope that's going to expand by the Department of Roma Fairs to Oma, to our Tambo because that's where the biggest numbers are in effect, and hopefully that will then deal with the immigration problem. The others relate to customs as well. Customs is the functionary of SARS and the operations there as a legislative portion that is the responsibility AFAR. Our role is access to run the joint
coordination arrangements with all of these multiple stakeholders. We call ourselves a functional ecosystem of multiple stakeholders that all play their legislative or even business responsibilities on our platform, and that coordination is actually quite critical to get all the parties working together delivering the on time performance that you see when an aircraft departs on time and the happiness
and passenger facilitation. That means people I'm not rating on queues. However, the downside is that when those individual organizations are facing problems, we are very often not able to intervene as answer to solve those problems, such as the staffing of the immigration desks, because it's a legislated function of BMA and Department of Home Affans. It remains that and they must find a solution. We can coherse. In fact, that's what
we do around the queuing. We help manage the queue with diverted the queues, make sure none visa people go fast on the one lane and others go slower because the process, etc. We produce interventions that try and ease the challenge. But if the challenge is primarily a stuffing issue at a newly established BMA, then those challenges, we
hope are going to start disappearing. From the infrastructure perspective, we are making commitments to totally eradicated challenges that are related to the asset base, and that means that people move us. The lists, the escalators, the technology, the scanners, the security machines, all of that is up for renewal and will basically enable us to bring back a very
perfect passenger experience through our airport. We're also going to deploy higher technology biometrics and facial recognition and other things that will of aid that process so that we can be similar to world class et. What's that we normally competed.
And for me, I'm sure you've been talking all day, by the way, not at all. I know the feeling. Look, I fully accept quite a few things out of your control. Some of them are in your control. I mean one of them is travelators that you know carry you know, carry people. The other one would be toilets for example. I mean stuff like that. I realize, you know, if you go to an airport almost anywhere in the world late on a Friday night, you'll have a very different experience.
And if you go at ten o'clock on a Monday morning. I do wonder though, if things are kind of just as clean and as quick and as slick. These are the things you control now that I'm talking about as they.
Sort of used to be.
Yet no, the one that we do controls, even as I indicated with made the commitment, part of it is also about the efficiency management of the airport. So just let's start on the infrastructure site. So the toilets are up for and you are all of them at all example, but they don't get renewed all at the same time.
So when we do that, we m are shut it down and then open the others, and we know what our passenger throughput is and we don't necessarily at the pace at which we move may not be too pleasing to passengers because we've got to keep some open. But you'll see brand new toilets, modern design, nice brilliant facilities that will come with this investment of this twenty one pillion.
The others is about the management of staff, which invariably includes efficiency of the contract management, because we have contract companies that are cleaning and penalties for those who want to perform so that in fact when they do, if cleaners are not in the cleaning positions on time, doing what they need to be doing, then we take disciplinary action against them. Steven. We act against people who come
to our time. We're thinking they've just come to roam around in a city and find economic opportunities, rather than executing the duties that they are there to actually do on behalf of company, but also in terms of providing improved passenger service for our customers. So there's a lot of discipline and a lot of work that is done around those that don't perform as they should. Contracts are terminated, the conditions of contracts are reviewed, the penalties are paid
for companies that don't deliver as they should. But as we move to the future, we really are committed. We've got an inficiency factor that we measure again, we're committed to achieving that.
I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt you, but we are going to run out of time, and I do want to put something else to you. One of the other things you can't control is air traffic navigation services. That's the separate entity of the Department of Transport. They've had some problems. In fact, some of your airports weren't able to take flights for safety reasons because of those issues. That must be very frustrating for you. The Minister's sort
of intervened. Do you expect that process, that situation to be resolved, and it's quite a difficult problem to resolve.
Well, our understanding is that a lot of that is now behind us, with the issues that have been resolved around making show that the procedures that we're outstanding and are updated approved by SARKA, and that it is unnecessary for some of the airports now to still be operating without them. So a lot of progress as we made, we understand a lot of the procedures are now approved,
and that was here. The second rollers is although on infrastructure that would also support the AT and S operations, and all of that is also being rolled out to make sure that it basically is operating efficiently. It normally affects us in bad weather because in a sense, if the procedure is not clear, the airlines can't take the risk of landing in a particular airport. If either the instrumentation or the procedures aren clear, effectively they are bought
the trip and they divert to a different place. What we've been able to do, though is access is to assist them. So in cases, for instance, where JOBAT to its London flight. This London is a very problematic one for in terms of the weather and its location, we then divert them, say to Chief David steal my pe and we as as our facilitate and pay for their passing up back to is London. So we've been also
very helpful in the process. We've not just stood by and watched at and s struggle through some of these things. We've assisted passengers, we've put out money, and we've been sure that the journey is actually pleasant. We've also spoken to the airlines about alternative route and basically manage the situation jointly with them in as much as we could. But yes, the improvement in.
That area as well and put me and for Fard do you have to leave it there? Thank you very much. Indeed I do appreciate the time the CEO at Airport's Company South Africa.
And now The Money Show with Stephen Credits on seven O two network.
Little The Money Show with Stephen Curtis has brought to you by absinue c IB, proud sponsor of the Sarah Rail Conference twenty twenty five Powering Progress, Connecting economies, Good evening, have plenty to come. In the next little while, we'll talk to Mark Wacksburger, the CEO at Capital Hotel sells an Apartment's been watching that little fracard debate, dispute argument.
I don't know is it a fight yet between Patricia de Lille, the Tourism Minister and the board of essay tourism, which she dissolved.
She did head back today.
Finally, Ronin Williams has been looking at a book about your digital identity. It's a book called The Future Review, and in fact it's quite a strange thing. How do people know who you are?
What?
In an age where you don't really meet people, How would you know who somebody is? How do you even know if they're alive? There's I mean, it's science fiction y, but it's kind of happening. And then I'm really excited to confirm to you that we'll be speaking to and Druso Macattini, the pianist, the composer, the music academic. He'll be with you from seven thirty. Really looking forward to that conversation this evening The.
Money Show on seven O two Monday to Friday, six to a pm.
Oh double one double A three oh seven, O two and O two one four four six, O five six seven. You heard your experiences of our airports a few moments ago. We heard the response from them, pulling and poor for the CEO at airport's company say, and yes, they did announce our record profits today, so they do deserve a pat on the back for that, but the experience of airports. Let's very quickly hear from sort of the airline perspective. London Birds is managing that. Lindon Burns is the managing
director at plane talking to London. Good evening, thanks for getting in touch. I mean, what do you make of the state of our airports when ACCE is announcing and I mean, well done to them, record profits.
Hi Stephen, then Twobon listening tonight. Yeah, look, no one but grudge as a well run business turning a profit. I think as tax players, you know it sounds great. We don't have another in sociable bulbatross around our neck. But that's the picture they want to paint. I think it's not necessarily the one was seeing. And I think your listeners have pointed out you know, these buildings have seen better times and even as you know, the airlines will point out. And before I came on, I checked
today's noteams. By the way, these are the notices published to pilots, notices to airmen, and there's a long shopping list of items that have remained unserviceable at our airports for months. Runway lighting, taxiway lighting, airfield navigation signage, that's not serviceable at the three main airports. Things like that, the contact air bridges, not all of them have been
returned to services COVID. That's five years ago. Now, okay, we've got airports like Kimberly where you still can't land or take off in the dark because acts haven't yet re employed all the firemen and don't run a fire and rescue service after dark. So business travelers who want to travel to and from the Diamond City a more convenient times can't do that. So you know, and where is this handsome profit coming from. Revenue comes from aeronautical charges.
These are statutory charges that it commands for aircraft, landing, parking and passenger service fees. But it's doubled its profit. And under the International Civil Aviation Organization principles for airport charge, you only meant to charge for services you provide. So where's the money going to and this dividend, what's happening to it. It's not being ring fenced for reinvestment in aviation. It's actually going to the central fiscus. So really it's
a statutory charge. This, I guess we're at tax this masquerading as a statutory user charge. So there are lots of questions that really need to be answered, and it's I think, you know a lot of people in the industry are going to look at this and go hang on. You know, you plead poverty every time you come up for a tariff review. You just did a seventeen and a half percent tariffing reachs last year and a similar
amount of the year before. We've not seen any sod turning on all of these massive capet projects you're talking about and that you've an now, so we're still bedeviled by things like broken fuel pumps. And by the way, the AT and S thing, thank you for asking and
proving about that. She clearly hasn't read the motowns because there are still hundreds of those procedures that remain suspended and they affect all of our airports and they affect access ability to maintain the schedule that airlines operate to.
Linden Burns. Thank you, thank you very much. Indeed, very comprehensive list of issues there. The managing director at Plane talking there's a lot going on, and look, I'll be the first to admit, as Pumi and Porfu said that it's a complex business and a lot of things she can't control, but there are things that acts can control.
So I found that very interesting. Linden Burns, thanks very much. Indeed, your views tonight are a double one three seven two and two to one four four six O five sixty seven.
The Lanely Show with Stephen crutis live on ninety two point seven and one six FM, streaming on the Prime Media Plus NAP and TSTV channel eight five six.
Well, finally, quite a strong response from the Tourism min Sir Patricia Delil Today to accusations she's protecting the suspended CEO of Tourism s. Numblello Gillieway. Last week you may recur several members of the Board of s Tourism of the former board said she had dissolved them after they suspended Galiway after the Orders to General had made findings
about her contact. Now, delil Today, denying defending Galiwa, says the board had long running procedural flaws when convening convening meetings, saying she won't allow the lord to be undermined. Well, Mark Wacksberger is the CEO at Capitol Hotels and Apartments, someone I think you can safely assume has a great interest in tourists coming to South Africa a market evening. I mean, from your vantage point right in the sort of middle of the industry, how worried are you about
what's going on here? I mean, do you know what is going on here?
Thanks for having me on the show.
Look to be honest with you, we're not worried. And while we're not worried, is that we're used to this unfortunately, is what I can say. You know, it's been years and years of the tourism industry leadership being kind of up and down and left and right, and yet we are so resilient, and yet we're performing very well. So it's one of those things where imagine, if they got it right, it could be absolutely amazing. It could lead
to development of amazing things. But as it stands right now, it's kind of priced in, if you will, the fact that it is always going to be a bit topsy turvy.
I mean, do you think I mean, I don't know if you'd take a stand on which side do you support? Do you think the minister's actions are harming tourism.
I don't have enough information.
I did see the release.
From Sasset today it's you know, as a body that really supported Patricia.
Delat as I did.
They've taken a stance now with I'm sure more information than I can have, which is that the minister is wrong in all of this, But I don't know myself. It's very difficult to know. But it was quite interesting to hear how they're reporting now and we are hearing murmurs in the industry about our conferences are not being attended internationally and so that actually does have an implication.
As an example, the golf conference that was happening internationally, now we don't have represent representation from South Africa, but yet it's a very competitive market and you know, these golfers then land up going to other countries that are that are competing. So you know, what's going on. I'm not sure, but the implications on the ground are definitely there. Are they passive and material. I don't know if it's absolutely catastrophic at this point.
There are other things unfortunately working against tourism at the moment, and we've seen so much commentary about the decline of services and let me be blunt here in places outside the Western Cape Mark, I just wonder and I completely understand it. I suffer from the decline of those services too. That does make it a lot harder to sell South Africa as a tourism destination. It's quite hard to say, come to South Africa when everyone's grumbling about South Africa.
No question about it. And that's why no material number of new hotels have been built since the twenty ten World Cup, when things were going swimmingly. Infrastructure was strong and we had obviously the boom to the twenty ten World Cup. And since then, you know, fast forward over fifteen years and we as the Capital Hotels have built something like twenty five percent.
Of all new hotel development.
And the reason why we've done it is because we put in our own infrastructure. We try not to rely on the infrastructure that is provided because it just is unreliable.
Are there.
I mean if you were given a magic wand and we're told, okay, fixed tourism, I mean, what would you do first?
Well, the issue has always stemmed first and foremost with the visa issues, which the Home Affairs Offer seems to be making great progress on. That was probably the single biggest issue. But then beyond that, you know, you see companies that rely very much on these big events we're talking about, like you'll see in Vegas as an example, the sellout of a Vegas convention and then all of a sudden, all the hotels are full. That's generally how
the hotel industry has been built worldwide. In South Africa, we rely much more on kind of you know, killing our own fish. Sure, I don't know, I don't know if that's the right word to use, but we don't rely on the industry per se in so many ways.
Whereas if the industry did perform and when some of those huge conferences, then we would all absolutely benefit and it would be our pricing would then adjust, and obviously that would lead downstream to the GDP multiplier effect which the industry has, you know, on labor and on spending power. So right now rates are almost you might quite low
because of the lack of that tourism performance. And like I said to you, you know, imagine it came right absolutely astonishingly wonderful because it's the most wonderful country with the most wonderful people.
Well, I remember so clearly tit Terumber when any finance ministers he then was and publishing a very important Economic Document to growth the economy and the two things he said that we could do very well we're tourism and agriculture. And in both cases what's important about them is that people who've sort of been portrayed by education system can work in those sectors. You don't need to bring cheaper manufacturing jobs here, for example. There are lots of things
you can do. And unfortunately, despite promises and at one point I think optimism in your industry, we still just don't see it.
Yes, the fair effect is unbelievable in terms of job creation and tourism and agriculture, as you say, and it is a pity that there aren't many, many more hospitality institutions under construction that yeah, like I said, were as the Capital, we kind of making our own plan and building anyway, like we're building in Quebec at the moment.
In Port Elizabeth Mark Waxberger, thanks so much. See at Capital Hotels and Apartments, good money show with Deep I saw over the weekend Barnie Patiana stepping down as chair of the National Lotteries Commissioner. I don't quite know yet why he's decided to do that. He's been there, I think three years now he has two years left sort
of in his term. I remember listening to him on Bongani Bengui's show on seven or two a couple of months ago, and he was talking about trying to reform the National Lotteries Commission, and as we all know, this was a commission that just became hopelessly corrupt. Rarely is the only word, the only words that describe it. And we've seen the SIU investigate, We've seen Raymond Joseph's astonishingly impressive journalism for ground Up, you know, with story after
story about it. I know Barney Patiana is of a certain age. I think he's eighty now or nearly, but I was still just sad to see him go. And I was reminded, and we see this in institutions everywhere of the huge fight back against his efforts to try and clean it up, and how difficult the job actually is, and what I hope is not the case. I'm hoping he didn't just throw in the targets you'd had enough and decided it couldn't be done. I mean, I hope
that's not why. I mean, someone who's played an immense role in our society over many, many years and would sort of deserve better. But I just I'm sometimes astonished by the fight back that we see when people come in and try and clean things up. And I can't help but wonder if the National Lottery's Commission is an example of that kind of fight back. If you've maybe got some insight into that, good to hear from you on oh seven two seven two one seven o two.
The My show Business books.
So this may be a strange question. How do you know who you are? And how do you prove who you are? I can see Teco Fights and Taquiso in front of me. They both know me when they see me. They know that I am Stephen Krutters.
I know they're.
Tekoa t Quiso.
But it may not be that simple going forward, because our relationships may or be entirely virtual. Ronnon Williams is the trend translator and future financed specialist with Flux Trends. Bron On you good evening. You've been looking at the book The Future of You. Can your identity survive twenty first century technology? The implications are actually quite frightening.
Yes, absolutely so. This is a marvelous book. It's written by one of my favorite featurists, Tracy follows. She initially studied philosophy, then worked in advertising, and it's now a business strategists and consultants and featurists to many organizations that will hold the household names. So she's been around the block for a while. She actually wrote this book towards the last crazy days of our COVID sort of blooked
in society. So it's a couple of years old now, but I thought i'd bring into your attention, and for seasons we haven't covered it on the show because so much of what she was talking about just a couple of short years ago that was deemed to be quite out there at Atlandos just you know, in twenty twenty two is now very much students I be grappling with
as business, at societies, as individuals at the moment. Basically, the advent of all things AI have really proved a lot of the issues that Tracy was talking about back then to be things you're really doing to be paying attention to. You raised one of them, of course, this ability to identify whether someone is a dog, a cat, a terrorist, or who they say they are on the other end of the screen with you. But kids who
are playing on roadblocks. For example, you might be interested to know who those avatars are that you're interacting with. If you are a company, of course, you want to know that you're interacting with suppliers and customers who are real people who are actually going to pay you or
deliver the goods that you've actually proachased rights. This whole issue of verifiable identity one of the things Tracy talks about, and of course those sort of security issues that come from not being able to verify that, but she also times have been into a sort of philosophy of who we actually are, which is also interesting from a brand perspective, because a lot of traits you were speaking about there is around how our identities are becoming fragmented. Even in
our own heads. We have these different compartments as to what we say online versus what we say on this platform or that platform. And I love that to do with reputational kind of engineering or hedging your reputational beats, as I like to say, like you do your financial investments. Because taking your reputation on a platform that could deplatform you or in a community that could cancel you our risks.
So we spreading ourselves and how we present ourselves based on our perception of how that will land and what that will do to our social credit and those sorts of things, which means, if you're a brand or a business, you don't necessarily know that the metadata of the people that you're targeting, as much as we have access to all of everybody's information at the moment, is really who that person is or it's just a sort of constructed version of themselves that your customer is giving to you,
which is which leads to all sorts of implications. I'm wasted advertising budgets in more prosaic sense. The mental existential crises on a more philosophical end.
Of the scale.
I mean, I mean that there's so much to it, So I mean one of the examples would be a sort of virtual legacy. So I mean, I mean, I remember reading science fiction. I think Peter of Hamilton, written not that long ago, by the way, the late nineties of you know a character who sort of existed after they died. Now I can just imagine the arguments we're going to have about this person's rights. Can they cill trate on the stock market? Can they do this? Can
they do that? Can they clone their brain. I mean it goes on and on and on, and frankly, I mean I enjoyed it as fiction. I'm not ready for it as fact.
A new chair it is, I mean as trophy. I think she tweeted because she still uses that platform for what do we call it? X fuesdays About the case in the UK or the US at the moment where just a couple of weeks ago, one of the victims of the school shooting was called up to do an
interview with the journe List. His parents basically gave permission to use his online legacy to act in bear witness to the crime that he was a victim of, which is again a huge amount of an ethical can of worms as to how legal systems are going to work.
Can the dead bear witness of their own trials? For example, we've also had cases of the Seas victims showing up in courts right and their AI history, a version of themselves, an unconscious consciousness is now being used to manipulate the great legal system that US individuals and corporates are going to have to navigate, which is a huge ethical mindfield because, of course, is that AI footprint sort of regurgitated from your past social media and blog history, rarely a representation
of what you really think, or is it, as I just said, a slice of yourself that you were willing to share the public, which is not what you really thought about. And of course the digital copyright, so what you leave behind, who gets access to your digital legacy, and who gets to profit off it? All sorts of things that Tracy spoke about you.
I mean, there's there are plenty of movies, you know, where you wake up and nobody recognizes you, right, and you try to sort of prove where you can't find your family or whatever it is, and that seems so incredibly far fetched, can't ever have happened, et cetera. But in a virtual era, it absolutely can because someone could wipe away all memory of you and there's really nothing you could do about it. I mean, it's incredibly frightening.
Yes, exactly. One of the personal anecdotes Tracy uses in the book is how she was lucked out of her Facebook account, which does kind of give your way or age and all bit that you staw using a platform. But the point is she was unable to prove successfully to Facebook because she is who she actually is, because you know, a computer says no, And that of course brings up a whole issue of how we defend who you are on the instet, how you defend your intellectual property,
how you even defend your own identity. If a system is saying that's not you. It reminds me. We have course cases of like people in India who have been depersoned because some government computers as they deceased, even though they're perfectly alive. The one man actually through a parade to prove that he was alive. And has it worked or not. But you know, these are the sorts of things that are taking place when the digital versus the real sort of interacting in terms of the loops to
determine what truth is. And you can be screaming, I am me, I am the truth. But if the systems are saying otherwise, you can get locked out of your bank accounts, you can get locked out of your like that man in India, your access to social welfare, entitlements
and all sorts of things. And I suppose the other issue that you have to man sure if you're talking about Tracy's book, which is again popping on to the radar right now it's the idea of neuroprivacy, which was a very early speaker on which sounded like science fiction
just two years ago. But now with out increasing advances and very literally brain reading technology that can pull us allts oude of your head as to who has the right to that, to advertisers have the rights to what's going on in your he with increasing applications of things
like effective advertising, do governments have access to that? With increasing pushes towards predictive policing, which again just a couple of years ago was a total science fiction conspiracy, very craziness, but it's now something that's being debated by policy makers and being implemented on the streets of places.
Like the UK.
Ronwyin Williams, thank you so much. Frightening interesting, we are frightening. Let me just use that word again. Ron Williams is the trend translator in future finance specialist Flags Trends. The book is the future of you Can your Identity Survive? Twenty first century technology? The author I highly recommend it is Tracy Follows, really does just explain how quickly things are changing. Make sure the people around you know that
you are you stay in the physical world. Why don't you just gone seven thirty on The Money Show.
Her Money Show, How I Make My Money?
Well, I have to tell you it's a great pleasure tonight to well come someone who's been able to make a living channeling our emotions for us, able to channel them to something quite rare. And I'm talking about the musician, the jazz musician from Qua zul Ntel and Duzo Macatini, someone who's made a career performing creating music, creating it live, but also through studying it. In fact, he as a
PhD on the subject. And let's just take thirty seconds to just hear a little bit about the kind of genius that I'm talking about.
Gonna ge like I am Gonnagal, like I are ConA villa.
The sounds there of Indiduzi Macatini Indu Also, good evening, And thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us on how I make my money this Monday evening on the Money Show.
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
I know you're very very far away from home, and I think when we hear that music, we kind of feel we're at home. It's quite a quite a strange thing. You're right, your your love affair with music, I mean it comes from your family, right, I mean it comes from the people who came.
Before you in your family, right it does. Yeah, I mean naturally being born in the.
It's so called rural areas in South Africa during our party, there had to be kind of there was a necessity or even an aurgency for alternative modalities of being in the world in a sense that there was so much catastrophe going on, and maybe in those moments, song presented a kind of break.
So I come from not only a family that.
Sang, but also a village a people, but also you know, I think there was just music all around, and there was a certain attachment to music back then, of course, which was every ritual was kind of signified by certain repertoires, which would mean eventually that repertoires were speaking to ways of being in the world, also calendar events and making
very important times. So I kind of came from those traditions and I tried to advocate for that both in my scholarly interventions but also just as a as an artist that has the stages.
All around the world. So that's that's really the background.
I noticed your your website, which which maybe is just for a sort of international audience, because I described you as a as a Zulu healer, which is not a word we would use in South Africa, I don't think, but I thought maybe it did contain an important word, because there's does music play a role for you and healing, I mean healing of our soul, healing of our wounds.
Right, I guess there is some kind of truth in that in a sense that I am initiated as a sangle, so we should translate as a shaman or a healer
in in you know, in kind of global contexts. But also I think it's just an intrinsic kind of ingredients or even a property in the sounds of South African or African music, where if we speak about a word such as goma, it's very telling of the idea of healing, that of song, that of prophetic knowledge, that of definition, and you know, all of these things kind of holding
into a kind of wholeness. So whereas in the West, for instance, music is understood as a branch of esthetic, in Africa, and without exoticizing, this is definitely a much more expanded notion of musiking, which has to do with healing practices and prophetically traditions. So it's definitely a thing that's it's kind of a bad job, perhaps even a
framework for my work. It really enunciates with this vision for opening, you know, healing potency at least for people to access their own healing powers.
I wonder sometimes when you when you when I was thinking of the concept today of music healing, if one of the reasons South Africa produces such amazing musicians and such kind of interesting sounds is because we're actually such a tough society.
Definitely, I guess there is something to be said about that. It's in a sense that even outside of Africa, black asthetic has always been a kind of fugitive aesthetic in a sense that it's a It has to do with the fact that the Black biography is something that we cannot transcend in making the music. In other words, the body and what the body has experienced through generational catastrophes and things that our forefathers and foremothers have experienced is not something that.
We trying to escape when we make music today.
So healing is really a pre occupation that hunts our sound in a sense that our sounds cannot really focus on entertainment that much, so, you know, because there is just so much that we need to speak to that healing is no longer just like a buzzword or a thing that we speak about, but it's the actual praxice of music making that we come to, the sound seeking modalities of transcendence anyway, and healing being a kind of harmonizing these broken parts of ourselves, whether we think of
ourselves through the Middle Passage or through transatlantic problems and slave trade, or whether we think about color reality. There has always been this necessity to claim our dignity. So when other parts dignity becomes a default thing, it's a bad ride that particular people assume certain kinds of you know, protocols that are kind of accessed by.
Being born as a black body.
These things are not so obvious, and so there's an urgency for our sounds to speak to how do we activate our collective memory and how do we bring these broken parts of our biography together and so that one day we'll tell our grandkids a more coherent story of who we are. I'm so healing here understood that a much deeper level of collective memory.
I'm I'm listening to you. Do you speak, and I'm I'm bad to imagine you as a child in a school wearing the kind of I think still a sort of colonial uniform. And I'm trying to trying to imagine you understanding as the world as you express it to us now, and imagining you also going through what you know children are now and our institutions go through, which is the sort of the wearing of the uniform. The maths. I mean, I imagine you you probably had to learn Afrikaans,
for example. I know it was quite as I did.
I'm part of that generation, and I can't imagine what that.
Was like for you who.
Has the soul that you do. There, let me put it like that, right right man?
Of course, like what you're painting is definitely a back job for any child born in the early eighties. You know, Afrikaansas the second language, English as the first language, show home the mother tongue, completely excluded from curriculum, and even more Africaans, you know, at the backdrop of nineteen seventy six, way the previous generations had to think about mathematics, physics,
biology inside of a foreign language. So these of course these problems that we inherit as people that come after. I think that's partly why maybe scholarship became a thing for me. I remember when I went to study music, and part of what I thought was really at a kind of fresh repertoire of songs and songs having to do with cosmological happenings was in the university scene as being musical illitate, So in other words, it was rendered outside of the center that had geermany.
It was peripherial.
So as a result, I had to do what they called a foundation here or a bridging course for people that had no musical background. So you can see already from that moment that the kinds of violence that come with curriculum, and curriculum.
That ignores other types of knowing in the world.
So I think, of course, by extension, this is why I would later consider doing my PhD and being in the university. Since two thousand and six, I've always been there, not for the university actually, but that there is a necessity to protest such a system, and we've been doing that by way of presence and being there in the university and kind of pushing what we might think of as a university, which is maybe a future concept for
thinking about a university that listens. So for instance, you find a university just at the back of Umkombine in Deben, but that has no connection to the epistemologies of the people in un Combine. So a puriversity as an intervention will be maybe a future university or a future poliversity that will understand that there are multiple ways of thinking about truth and get away from this singularity of truth and this notion of the universal as a Eurocentric paradigm
by extension in forming curriculum. So part of why we are in the university is because of all of those sufferings and feeling that there is nothing said about my people in curriculum or even in the history and our history of cousin South Africa in those years we're studying from the arrival of Janfandrik in the Cape sixteen fifty two. So that's already problematic because it suggests that our history
starts from when it gets hijacked. So these are some of the things that are you know, not explicitly music how but that the music is taying to speak to Actually.
We are speaking to Indiduzu Makatini this evening, the pianist and composer and academic So many more questions to come intodus, especially about your thesis at eight minute state the.
Money Show, Stephen Kuetas is brought to you by absurs cib Cloud, sponsor of the Sarah Rail Conference twenty twenty five Powering Progress, Connecting Economies.
We're speaking tonight, Induduzual Macatini, the pianist and composer and academic introduser.
You're a PhD.
The title is breaking into sound this dash locating or this forward slash dislocating in true cosmology and improvisation in South African Jazz. And I just wondered if I could ask, maybe if we remove some of the academic language, what you were actually examining.
Right well, in the simplest way, the argument is that there isn't a way of reaching sound without consulting the very worldview or cosmology as it were, in which the peasant kind of imagines.
So in the end, my argument was that.
The current readings of music, or current readings of jazz in particular, have always kind of ignored a much broader paradigm of thought, that is, the Badu people the GUNI people as a kind of place of departure for thinking about sound as a result.
Of being in the world.
So essentially, yeah, I kind of bring forward this idea that when I was growing up, we did not call it music making, but we called it breaking into sound. And if we call it breaking into sound, there is a thinking about the break. A break is something that releases, so in other words, sound as as as in this way understood as a manifestation of something that's already there.
So you're breaking into something that's already there.
So that's like kind of a very kind of summarized way of it and trying to think, like you said, outside of academics, non of theory and stuff.
Yeah, I mean I grew up listening to rock music and so so that you know, if I hear Elvis that lands in a particular way, and maybe you're describing that with different words precisely, Yeah, I want to I want to ask when you perform, you the way in which you think and speak in English about music is one thing. When you perform your music and music, I don't I mean, you're using different terms, right, Like it's a different thing. It's not the kind of formal way
in which you're describing it. Now you're you're you're feeling it differently, right.
Well precisely.
I think it's you know, the world doesn't know enough about how critical African languages are already, So in a sense, I think it's very critical, just not in the register that has hegemonized what critical thought is. So for instance, if we listen to Wapa chemisty or mam Muslimshongo, who would be understood as like kind of maskandapen artists, there's
so much critical thoughts that's happening there. It's just happening in seazuol uh and and it's for me, it's it's kind of strange how we don't associate indigenous ness and intellectualism.
It's a thing that I'm grappling with every day.
But I am trying to say that even without the English language, these things are still critical.
They produce a way for inquiry and me kind of protesting.
The singing in English is one of those ways to say that when these things are explained in English, they are mystery presented and they are kind of richusd actually, and there's a lot of violence of translation.
So these are some of the things.
So playing that music and singing that language already as a modality for protest, we've.
Got literally twenty seconds. It must be different when you performing your music overseas in front of audiences that are in South Africa.
It is definitely different.
I've been thinking more and more about how the music itself is a relation of philopresis. What it means is that the music looks into cosmological premodial systems, which means they go beyond race. For instance, these are things that humanity should remember. What I've been thinking.
About more and more is that the end of the world won't.
Be destruction of buildings and all of that, but the end of the world will be when humanity stops sensing and we're seeing that a lot and a lot more. And I mean to that point, I've just put out like a tiny concept that really speaks about these things. So if people want to hear more of these I have a reflection on that tiny desk concept.
People can go and watch that.
Interdusio Marcatini, thank you so much. It's been a wonderful time with you this evening.