And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven oh two.
Let's walk little. The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you by Abster Corporates and Investment Banking. Abstrus a proud lead sponsor of B twenty South Africa twenty twenty five. Good evening, Welcome to the program. I'm Stephen Curtis. Lots to get through this evening, we'll stalk. I was kind of not at all surprised to see some very angry words coming from the ANC National Executive Committee meeting over the weekend. And are not just talking about the
fact they didn't like the venue. All they wanted Coca Cola and not Kingsley Kola according to that Sunday Times Leads story. I'm talking, of course about the Monetary Policy Committee and their decision from the Reserve Bank to effectively give us a three percent inflation target. Well more on that in just a moment. Both Gene Scummann and Duma Corbole,
both of them on hold for you. We'll talk also in the next couple of moments about what we expect would be the job losses caused by the amount of clothing that is being sold in South Africa by Shane and Temu. I mean, one of the key questions to all of this is why are they able to make clothes for a cheaper price than us? And there are
lots of very important answers to that question. Our labor laws are different, the way in which people work, the resources around us, all sorts of things are very very different. But I think it's an important question if we want to actually take them on, we have to know why
that is. Now. Look, I'm not convinced you get value for money if you buy cheaper things, and I think a lot of people are actually making the decision to spend money essentially on clothes made here because they know they'll last longer and over time the value is better. But if you ever only got that he ran and you need to buy a T shirt for your child, well you don't have many options. And I think that is kind of what's happening twenty five minutes from now.
Also a lot to come around Africa, the cost of capital in Africa. We're always talking about development projects in Africa, how much capital costs, and then of course the role that a ratings agencies playing this. I wonder if you've ever done this, actually gone through your monthly or sort of annual bills, gone through your credit card perhaps and worked out how much it really costs you over time
to order food to be delivered to you. I mean from the beginning of the pandemic and maybe a little bit before that, there's been an explosion in home delivery. I'm talking about your mister D's, your uber eats at things like that, and if you look at the hidden costs, and if you do it, say twice or three or four or five or six or gosh, ten times a month, the cost really adds up. Wendy Nola's been looking at that.
I'm sure you have a view. I know you have a view on how much that's costing you or someone you know or dare I say, a younger person in your family. I'm sure they will be the culprit. I mean some people sort of live like that. There's a famous sort of news twenty four story years ago of I think mister D delivering the same thing to the same person as ordered for years. I mean it was
a pizza or something the same kind. I mean, look, if you if you know what you like, and you like what you know, why I argue with it, but have you done the calculation perhaps, and don't forget your extra special shape shifter this evening July in Louisville. An unbelievable career starting in a very small Roman Catholic school outside ms Vingo in Zimbabwe. I mean he ended up studying at Columbia. I mean there's a story there. July and Louisville. Of course, the outgoing I suppose now I think,
I say, the former CEO. I think that's right of Tungela Resources. We're looking forward to meeting him and seeing him in our studio in about an hour and seventeen minutes from now. Looking forward to your views tonight. Oh double one double A three oh seven two two one four four six five six seven and seven two seven oh two one seven oh two. The Money Show with Stephen krudis live on ninety two seven and one six FM, streaming on the Prime Media Plus.
NAP and DStv channel eight five six.
Well, the first signs of what I think is an inevitable pushback to the Reserve Bank's decision to aim for the lower end of the Monetary Policy Committee's inflation target. Those first signs coming through in the last twenty four hours senior A and C figures, including the head of its Economic Transformation Committee, the Deputy Minister Zuko good Limpi, saying that the A and c's National Executive Committee was very angry with the bank's decision. Effectively, now our inflation
target is three percent. Technically, of course, as you know, the decision should really be made by the Finance Minster Goguana. We start tonight with the economist at Citybank, Genus Schuman. You and a good evening. This kind of reaction was inevitable. But we have a situation now where the Reserve Bank Governor and the Finance Minister seem to have different views on a vital issue. What kind of signal does this send?
Good evening, Stephen. This is a turning into quite a consensuous issue in South Africa. So let me say that I think we all need to take a step back and agree. And I do believe that the Finance Minister and the Governor do agree on one thing is that high inflation for South Africa will stop it from being able to grow. High inflation or too high inslation will stop consumers from being able to spend, but particularly your lower income consumers because they are far more vulnerable to
inflation than they are interest rates. However, we've heard the governor since twenty twenty one talk about the virtue of targeting something lower than four and a half percent. Now, there wasn't a formal change to the inflation target. If you think about it, the range still fits a three to six percent, and that's what's written into the constitution protect the currency, and according to all the documentation, there's a three to six percent range.
Prior to the.
Current governor, we had governors who preferred to target numbers just below six And when les Lecha Kaknago came in some time into his first term, he said, well, you know, four and a half percent makes more sense to us. We think lower inslation is beneficial to the economy. And I do believe he's absolutely right. Lower inflation is beneficial to an economy, particularly when you have so many low income consumers. The thing now, however, is that they've just
changed their preference. Instead of targeting the middle of that official range, they now want to target the bottom. And where that becomes so complicated is what we see almost twofold. Firstly, you've got the fact that Generally people are worried that if you aren't able to achieve the inflation target that the South Africa Reserve Bank sets, they are known to be hawkish and they will then have to hike interest
rates in order to achieve it. Hiking interest rate to something that no one really likes to see means your debt is more expensive, and naturally that's what generally people want to avoid. But I do think there is some misconception there. If you listen to the SOB, we do believe three percent is achievable the time, and they've said that they will be very tolerant of trying to get
to this three percent over the next years. But the second channel, which you've now asked about, is the decision making,
the politics behind all of this. And naturally, yes, I can understand how the Finance Minister would want to clarify the position of National Treasury in terms of who actually sets the inflation target, because he's probably being asked a heap from everyone that, well, we thought it was you that was supposed to make the announcement, and now he has to explain that they actually haven't officially changed the inflation target and it simply just a preference.
I suppose the argument could be from the Reserve Bank, we're giving the minister space to actually make the announcement. We're just preparing the ground a little bit.
Well in a way, absolutely. I mean they have been very transparent and you know, the South Africa Reserve Bank is just known for being so transparent and independent and very vocal. And they said to us that there is a window of opportunity here where inflation is already at three percent, and if they start to target three percent with a view to only achieve it in the future, that they do it right now, the benefits that this economy will receive are so much more than if they
try and do this at a later stage. But of course, you know, we're going to have to wait and see. And I do think there is a window. You know, we've heard from a finance minister. It's not as that we're going to get to the m mtvp is later on this IEUR and suddenly receive a new inflation target. It's not even a guarantee that will get their next February and receive a new inflation target. These things do
take time. But we told the work is being done and we're told that there are merits in targeting lower inflation. The National Treasuries Macro Policy Review from twenty twenty four said inflation targeting works and that there is merit to explore a lower target genis common.
Thank you so much. Economist at City Bank listening to that, DUMA and economists and research associates at the so SO Policy Initiative, Dummer, good evening. You have a very different view on this.
Yes, I think most South Africans agree that the governor was totally out of court order and unilaterally announced a new monetary policy, a three percent target number one, and he's trying to bully South Africa and the government into accepting the three percent target. Now where I you know, like right now, it's irrelevant whether you think it's a good thing or the bad thing. Everywhere in the world, every central bank in the world does not have political
or goal independence. Political or goal independence is set by democratic processes. Now, this central bank governor has decided to implement this three percent target without informing the President, without getting the approval of the Cabinet, without getting approval of the other members of the GNU and National Treasury, and I think that's totally out of court order. I don't understand why isn't such a rush. He must wait for the democratic process to play itself out.
Okay, but if we've had and as Gina reminds us, if we've had it has not always been the case that the Reserve Bank has targeted at the midpoint of three to six percent. We've had people targeting and being very comfortable with inflation just below six percent. If someone were interpreted three to six percent is just below six percent. What's wrong with targeting well just above three percent? I mean, if it's good one way, it must beak at the other.
Yeah, but it's not his call. It's for us to do it.
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it wasn't the call of the of the previous Reserve Bank governor who tolerated higher inflation either, is my point.
Yeah, yeah, But but the point is there wasn't a debate at the time about introducing a new target and to what most Souther Africans maybe seemed reasonable the mid range of the target. Now you're going to the short to the bottom of the target and setting effectively a new policy for the country. And it's none of his business. He must stay in his lane. Yeah, the second thing
I want to say. The second thing I want to say is that you know that if you look at the last twenty five years inflation targeting, and I've looked at the wholes in five years, there's never been a situation where there's excess demand in the economy. Every single time when inflation goes up, it's got to do with things that are out of our control most of the time, supply side shocks, and interest rates are quite frankly useless
in terms of supply side shocks. The interest rates, I mean, the inflation coming down now has got nothing to do with monetary policy settings. It's to do with supply side shocks working themselves out of the system. So using interest rates, some people say it's a bluntitude. I say, it's a totally useless tube in the sense that it's equivalent of prescribing water to address a broken leg.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I get that, But any other central banks adopted inflation targeting roughly the same sort of time, from kind of the late nineties into the early two thousands, we were one of those, and inflation until I suppose the pandemic was kind of under control compared to the nineteen seventies, for example, in most parts of the world, including here, but.
There wasn't The reason for inflation behind control was to do with the China factor. It's got nothing to do with most cases of the monetary policy settings. And that's what happens. It was, you know, China exporting cheap goods to the rest of the world. That is the biggest driver of the lower inflation. And this is my point.
We learned during the pandemic, when I mean inflation went up and down throughout the world at exactly the same time, we peaked at the same time as the US a month later, and that shows that the drivers of inflation are not We're not domestic during the pandemic. It's got to do with rising oil prices, exchange rates and things
that I've been talking about. So we need to re visit this whole issue of inflation targeting in my view, because we've got a prime lending rate of seven point five percent in an economy that's going to grow by one less than one percent this year. What logic is that it's one of the highest prime lending rates in the world.
Here, Duma, thank you very much. Indeed, Duma orbule An economist and research associated at the Social Policy Initiative. Well, you've heard of both from him and from Ginas Schumann, two sides of quite a complicated coin.
What have Stephen on seventy two seven oh two one seven oh two.
Well, I'm sure you or someone you know, someone in your family is currently wearing a product that's been made by shean ortemu suggestion today that if it goes on like this, we could actually lose around thirty four thousand jobs in our clothing industry. The study commissioned by the Localization Support Fund. Eustace Maschambia is the CEO of Proudly Essay Eustace Good Evening. I mean, we know these companies
is producing clothes much more cheaply than our companies. Clearly they haven't quite an impact on our textile industry.
They definitely are, and I'm glad that we were able to get the Localization Support Fun the ministrialits. Can we ask them to conduct the paris so that we could all determine the impact of this one the economy, So the numbers are out. What you mentioned now in terms of the thirty four thousand jobs is what will potentially happen by twenty if they keep going at the rated which they are going currently. They already have taken up, you know, about a set of the total online or
e commerce sales from South Africa. And they've done this in just about five years, and it took the other players about thirteen years to get to where these two players are just in the last four years. So clearly their aggression is paying dividends for them, but not doing anything for our economy.
Okay, but I mean we've also seen so I mean, I remember five years ago in the start thinking my word, our textile industry has got like a year ago. What we saw instead was companies like the Machini Group, there are others. They started designing making clothes here quite cheaply, not as cheaply as the others, but very quickly. I mean, that was the big shift of a higher quality than Shane and Timil. And haven't they been able to fight
their way back into the market. That was certainly my understanding. Yes, Shane and Timo have taken market share and they'll probably keep it, but we have seen South African producers actually kind of fighting their way back in.
No, definitely, I think, you know, the social partner's been government, the organized labor and the unions as well as as the retailers coming up with the retail clothing, textile where that the master plane has really helped because those targets that are contained in the master plan is what everybody's working towards in terms of shifting white was previously or that especially in the if to ordering it in factors
in that country. That has really helped in terms of ensuring that those factors where you know that have the capacity that is required, you know, are given any chance to stay alive because once we lose that manufacturing capacity, it's gone and we most times we can't get it back.
No sure, I mean useless. Here's the bigger question, right, This is all about price. I mean it is about the app gamification of buying all of those things, but it is also about the price. We have people who are desperate, they're going to spend as little as they can and need to spend money on food. They're going to find clothes where they can for the children, and that means that price matters. And Sheen and Timu produce clothes more cheaply than we can. And this is the big question why is that?
So?
The big thing that we have seen with them, and the study touches on some of those aspects, is issues around economies of scale. It's issues there are export subsidies that I mean, these guys are export tuests from wherever they are making these products. They're making the products themselves, and I think that's how you phrase it in your introduction. These guys are making the products that they're sending to
all of these countries all over the world. Then that's why when the study was done, comparison was done with some of the countries that we think, you know, at the same level in terms of the developmental agenda. And you can see some of them have banned these things from coming into their country.
But I get all that use systems very to interrupted. It doesn't answer the question. I mean, I would start my answer to the question in a couple of ways. One is our infrastructure doesn't work nearly as well as the infrastructure around them. Two, and this is an important and very complicated point, I don't think they pay their workers as much as we pay our workers. Now, I don't want lowest salaries for people. At the same time, this is a reality. It's a race to the bottom.
No, but you see, the other challenge that we must not ignore is the fact that we can't advocate for low labor. It's similar to what they have. I mean some of the so some of these things are made in sweat shops. I mean the ILO has reports on these in terms of the kind of working conditions in which this products are made. So we can compete when
it comes to that. What we can tie and do is without going the aggressive, without saying they must not come in like they've done in other countries, is to ramp up our efforts of getting Sificans to be able to access localimate products. Hence the introduction of an online store by partly so can the shop Priday in clear accessibility of locallymate products. Make sure that consumers know that they can go to places where they can find products for for all spheres of society and for all sectors.
Depending on which ta of products you want to buy. If you want to go the low the lower segment, you will go lower segment. It might not be the cheapest selling table, but you don't have to buy it and replace it next week, you know, because the quality is so bad that you can't even read because all of some of the things that came out of the study, So there are other considerations that have to be cleaning back consumers when they buy on those platforms.
Eusters, thanks very much. Indeed. Eustace Mushimbia is the CEO of Proudly Essay The Money Show. Chris Stiarent's portfolio manager at ninety one Chris, Good Evening. Results out from glen Core and one of the many companies, particularly a mining company that's been hit quite hard. Bye, well, everything that's been going on. I'm talking geopolitically in particular.
Yeah, Good Evening, Steven, Yeah, glenn Core. I mean they had had a production report out. I think we talked about that a week or two ago. This is their earnings numbers for the first half, little bit light of market expectations, although they've reiterated their full year guidance. They've been hit by lower col prices and some production problems in their copper business in particular. They are reiterating their
gardens for the year. But they've got a lot to do in the second half, and I think you know they're earning miss here, giving the market a little bit of couse for concern, but also important to announcing today that although they'd been looking to move their listing out of London and possibly moving a listing to the S and P in the US, which the market I think had started to discount would be a better environment for them potentially to unlock value, particularly within their coal portfolio,
which attracts continued ESG concerns. Deciding not to move their listing, electing not to list on the S and P. I don't think they would have found their way into the index due to domicile reasons that pushes the index funds away from them, and I think that was the key decision in.
Not electing to move their listing. And then Quilt are their assets under a management and administration up by six percent?
Yeah, I mean a good what looks like a pretty good trading update out of Quilt or or first half results should I say beating where it matters? I guess as it's under manner netflows better than anticipated revenues, perhaps a touch light of what the market was looking for. But it was a very very choppy quarter if you remember all that went on during the quarter, and you know they charged their fees based on average assets under management and given Liberation Day history onics from the market.
We did see a very very large draw down during April, so that's quite possible that that was the source of the small revenue miss, but a big beat on the coast front, and as a result of that, a good earnings beat, also indicating that the ongoing regulatory review is going well. They believe that the provisions they've taken for the regulatory review are at least adequate and there may be opportunities for further capital distribution later in the year.
So you know, the market taking the result in their stride, possibly the fairly guided outlook for the second half, taking some of the shine out of what looked like a pretty decent result for the first half.
Chris, thanks so much, portfolio manager at ninety one, bringing the time to just after six thirty.
Taking your call on one three seven.
Well, that is the number of various comments coming through today on the Reserve Bank, on the Monetary Policy Committee. In fact, a doctor len Konar got in touch at doctor Connaugh, good evening. You were a director on the SAB weren't you some time ago? I think I have a.
Good evening, Steph, and I have the world record I served for twenty four years, and I shared the audited committee for something like nineteen years.
Oh wow, okay, well, thank you for getting in touch. I mean you've been listening to.
These with four different governors as well.
Okay, so we're going back a little bit a lot of experience. I mean, your view on what the Reserve Bank governor, the Monetary Policy Committee, the A and C, what they've all been saying about all of this.
Stephen, there are points of view that resonate with each of the commentators. Number one, it's highly desirable that we do have an inflation target, as your own power is done in the USA, and we've set the band between three and six and Lesertia Raniajo came forward and announced last week that three percent is the target. The Reserve
Bank administratively reports to the Minister of Finance. Functionally, it has a board of directors, so from a protocol point of view, it needs to consult from time to time with the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Finances in the GNU. So there are a number of parties that he would need to liaise with. But if you look at the overall intent, is it highly desirable that we should target a lower inflation rate, and the answer to that is an unequal for though we should go
out there. Sorry, it's an unequal vocal. Yes, we should go up there and target this lower interest rates steady. The mandate as far as the Reserve Mink is concerned, is to protect the value of the currency. I've heard Duma, Kubura, Gene Skumann, all of them have points of view. But in the end, if one looks at the community in sixty two million South Africans, we have pensioners and retirement funds that prefer high interest rates, consumers that prefer lower
interest rates. So by us following this and targeting and inflation rate, we are trying to ensure that we have consumerism, we have a steady currency. You've seen the balance of trade and the volatility is within the currency. So my considered view is maybe the announcement by the Gardener should have taken place after consultation with the Minister of final
But is this injurious to anyone? Does this You're a step out of line with the target And the answer to that is no. So we need to support the governor, support the independence of the Reserve Bank and bring down inflations so that our currency will not depreciate on average by six percent and has this been the case in the past twenty five years.
Doctor len Conna, thank you very much indeed for getting in touch. Good to hear from you. A former long standing director of the South African Reserve.
Bank's on the Money Show six to eight pm.
Well I suggested from the CEO for Business and Commercial Banking at Standard Bank, Bill Blackie, that Africa is currently at an inflection point in terms of its development. Standard Bank holding the Financing Africa Forward Cost of Capital Summit today. We'll Bill Blackie on the line for you now. Bill, good evening. You suggest we're actually at an inflection point. Why do you believe that?
Steve, thank you. It's wonderful to speak to you again tonight. You know, Stephen, we've been growing our business across Africa for many, many years now and we continue to see sustained growth and sustained returns from that investment. So we remain extremely positive about the growth of both South Africa and the rest of the continent, and that's why we do these initiatives and invest in these initiatives like Financing
Africa Forward. This today was very much focused on our cost of capital in Africa, and there's a lot of data to show that actually in Africa we pay disproportionately high interest rates for that capital that we need for infrastructure investment. So that's what we were bringing role players and stakeholders together to really start to get practical about how we deal that.
Public private partnerships seem to becoming more popular. I mean, is momentum building around.
Those absolutely, you know, it's an absolutely essential art of the growth of the continent over the long run. Asterka itself has got some savings capacity, but when you look at the infrastructure gap that we have at the moment and the potential that we can unlock if we can invest in that infrastructure, we absolutely need to crowd in capital from a range of different sources and that's why public private partnerships would be so important.
I mean, one of the major issues is strengthening government capacity. Governance weakness is a major problem. Are there certain changes that could improve governance or strengthen governance to use a better word.
You know, without a doubt, I think consistently you see that improving across the continent. One of the great examples would be if you look at Kenyan this last period where they went through a downgrade, then went through the process of articulating their strategy to the market at Marrakesh last year, and he saw uptick in the ratings of the country off the back of that. So you know, there are many of these stories that we could share with yourself and your listeners.
Bill Blackie, thanks very much, indeed, Seer of Business and Commercial Banking at the Standard Bank Group. Well, a major part of all of this is around credit ratings and obviously, as you know, the better your rating the GP or capital, the GP or capital, the more development, the better the rating. Harry join Ditmas a Specialty growth leader at Marsh Africa. Harry, good evening, And I suppose I mean we should ask
how important sovereign credit ratings are in Africa. I mean, I remember how important it was when we were downgraded to sort of non investment junk status. It was a few years ago. Looking back, it probably has had quite a big impact on us and we're just one country in our continent.
Hi there, thank you very much for having me on. Yeah, credit ratings are really important, made up of qualitative and and quantitative measures and really measure a country's ability to service its debt, and there are various ingredients within that, whether it's the GDP, whether it's the size of the informal economy, its ability to collect tax, and it's government debt.
Of course, the better those measures, the more able that country is viewed to be able to service its debt and to be able to leverage debt in the international markets. Of course, the lower the credit rating, the less credit worthy that country is seen to be able to service its debt, and it's higher the cost of borrowing.
Have you seen other countries suffering when their credit rating is sort of downgraded? I mean, does it happen almost automatically you can kind of, you know, predict what's going to happen next kind of.
Yeah.
Absolutely so. Look, pension fund banks, private equity funds all use credit ratings to set their strategies towards the country in terms of how much they want to lend and at what cost, and it impacts their internal limits and as I say, pricing, so systemically they're well entrenched in the sort of global financial architecture. So a downgrade can
again increase the cost of borrowing. And I mean a country could could even fall outside of a risk appetite entirely and so reduce the amount that that country could invariably borrow to fund really important infrastructure projects or its sort of social strategies and what have you.
Does it affect other things? So, for example, insurance for a large scale project, I mean, would that be affected by a ratings downgrade too, Yes, but it's the.
Sort of tertiary impact I suppose, I mean many countries across the continent the sub investment grade. But from a from a from an insurance perspective, that means it's it's really critical for those lenders at a project level to have recourse for various insurable risks at a project level, whether it's to the construction of the project or the operation of it, to have recourse to well rated insurers to make them whole for insured events to that project.
And so it's critical that where there are you know, lower lower rated countries, that there are well rated insurers sitting behind, often local insurers who are issuing these policies, which just means that that it's sort of critical that the well structured insurance policies sit sit behind, and well rated insurers sit behind. Insurance protection for these for these
infrastructure projects. But also I suppose one other angle of insurance as well that that that does support flow of capital is insurance that the banks or the private equity funds take out to cover them against default of those loans to either governments or to to projects directly. And whether that's default insurance to help them leverage more capital into those projects, or political risk insurance and credit credit ratings influence the availability of those coverages.
Are some sectors hurt more than others when there's a downgrade? I mean, does mining or agriculture have more vulnerable than other sectors?
So yes, So projects that have or are dependent on governments or sub sub sovereign for payment streams or cash flows, so energy in particular, where there are government of takers and so governments are required to pay for whatever is being produced, whether it's energy or whatever else. Downgrade can influence the sort of the credit risk of that project and the availability or appetite of developers and investors to fund those projects and indeed the cost of delivering that project.
Harry Droyan Didmas, the Specialty Growth leader at marsha Apaguet, thanks very much once.
Up Stephen On well, we were talking about the Reserve Bank earlier on in the Monetary Policy Committee, but we've also been talking about what you're literally wearing.
I'm talking about clothes, the price of clothes, Shane and Tim or the impact that they're having. And for some people it means they have more choice than ever before in terms of what they were and I'm talking about people in our country, South Africans. For others, of course, they're sitting at home thinking I might be working if it wasn't for them, or voice notes coming through tonight on seven two seven two one seven o two.
As Steven, I think a quick example, which would be simpler would be to look at Apple, where it was more expensive to develop an assemble the Apple devices in the US compared to them being assembled in China. So it is a much cheaper alternative for that work to be done in China. So if you look at it, that means the labor in China is much cheaper compared
to anywhere else in the world. Hence the clothings that are brought from China, for example, for Shinna and Demo are much cheaper because of the labor which is cheaper in that country.
Absolutely You're entirely correct. It's a great example to point to actually with Apple. I mean, the other thing to just say is that India and China have the expertise, the people who can put lots of things together and create a production line that can do it, whereas I understand the US actually doesn't your thoughts. Tonight, double one, double A THREEH seven oh two an two one four four six O five sixty seven.
The Money Show with Stephen Kutez is brought to you by APPS, a corporate and investment backing APPS as are proud lead sponsor of the twenty South Africa twenty twenty five.
Well, just a sort of carry on the conversation around tariffs, and we're talking about Apple in relation to Shin and Timu, and Apple's problems are all because the US President Donald Trump is essentially, by kind of individual executive order what's the word of the moment, unilaterally deciding that he's going to do what he wants to do when it comes
to trade. And there's been some developments on really two fronts. First, the US President Donald Trump imposing a twenty five percent tariff on all goods from India, which surely is going to impact the relationship between India and the United States, and for quite a while they've actually been quite pali together. I mean, there's sort of complications, but they've been relatively
pally together. The second is that our international relations mister Ronald lamarl A confirming on X following on from a post on X by a person called Masad Bulls who is described as a senior advisor to Trump, and LaMura essentially saying, yes, we did have a conversation. Difficult to know at the stage of it involved tariffs, and I suppose that takes us to a question of who has Trump's here, who's actually making the decisions? Well, he's clearly
making the decisions, but who's influencing them? And that's quite complicated to actually know. I was pleased though, to see that there is communication. I do think that that's very important.
All right.
Coming up in the next half hour more from Wendy Noley, Consume an engine on this issue of the cost of having food delivered to you and what that amounts to. It can actually amount to quite a lot over a month. We'll also talk about a tokenism. How do you make sure that your company is not getting involved in tokenism, so true diversity if you prefer, and then don't forget
your extra special shape shifter. This evening, July and Lauvel, the CEO of former CEO now at Tungala Resources, has some very interesting comments to make and has lived a very very interesting life. Looking forward to all of that. Good evening. You're at the Money Show. It's seven o'clock.
And now The Money Show with Stephen Scribers on seven oh two.
Let's walk little. The Money Show with Stephen Curtis has brought to you by Abster Corporate and Investment Banking Absurus, a proud lead sponsor of B twenty South Africa twenty twenty five. Good evening. Lots coming up in the next little while. Don't forget. We'll be speaking to Avita and i Do from jack Hammer Global in just a moment. There's always this of lingering question when we talk about diversity, of the issue of tokenism. I mean, how do you
make sure it's not happening to you? How do you make sure company is actually truly diverse? Things like that? Are there traps that people fall into? I mean, I think that's something we need to look at. Wendy Nola has been looking at the cost of, you know, every month, of how much it's costing you to have food delivered to your door. I mean we all love it. I'll find it frustrating actually because it just takes so long and rather get a car and go and do it.
But there are moments, family, children, people, et cetera, when actually it makes complete sense to just phone someone and say please deliver food or whatever it is. So we talk a little bit about that in the next little while and then don't forget your extra special shape shift
tonight July in Lauvu. It was a Tranella resources for a very long time, just finished this last month there and of course really a very very interesting life story as well, so looking forward to that and of course hearing from you tonight.
What up Steven on seven to two seven two one seven oh two.
Well, I comment from Michelle on the WhatsApp line. Quite honestly, I think the people buying Shane and Timu clothes are not the low end of the consumer market, but rather middle class people who like the convenience. That's actually a very interesting question. I know there was a time when people would say, no, man, we need to make sure that people have data and things like that. I think more and more that's becoming less of a problem. I think people have access to data or access to someone
who does if you see what I mean. So now I think that that becomes less of an issue. And maybe that's one of the reasons we've seen such an explosion in sort of online sources of clothing, that more and more people actually have data the ability to do it, and that means that Shin and Timure come in there. I mean, I must just say more and more it is about the app, and it's not about the service or the cost to an extent. I mean cost matters with clothing, of course, it does that about the app.
And if you aren't able to to compete on the app, well then I don't know what's going to happen to you. Frankly, I think that rarely is one of the major issues. Anyway, Your thoughts O double one, double A three oh seven oh two and two one four four six, five sixty seven.
No money, show business unusual.
Business unusual is nine minutes after seven. Well, despite what might be happening publicly in corporate America, here still huge demands for companies to show that they're committed to true diversity. It often doesn't come actually from government. I mean, in some ways it does. But what you really want to do is if you operate in South Africa, you have a diverse set of customers and you want to make sure your customers are reflected in your business. Otherwise you're
going to make well wrong decisions. Adita, and I do is the Africa MD at Jack Hammick Global, Adita, good evening, welcome back. Do we find that there are sort of traps of tokenism quite a strange phrase that we see in corporate South Africa. Do we see some equality programs just make mistakes?
We do, I think, And obviously this is a really important issue to think about right now in terms of the fact that it's Women's Month. But yeah, tokenism it's when the diversity is very visible but not actually powerful, and you know, you think companies are actually just meeting these box ticking exercises. Women are being appointed to meet scorecards, but they're not really empowered to shift strategy or culture.
And the thing is that it's insidious or it's confusing because it wears the mask of progress and you'll see the one woman on an all male executive team or the single black female board member very publicly celebrated, but when you really scratch the beneath the surface, that actual
influence of her role may be limited. So I think there are companies that are falling into this tokenism trap where you get the same few women sitting on all the boards, or women are clustered into these so called soft rolls like HR or legal or marketing and not in the P and L or strategic operational roles, and you can actually physically count how many women are the room in the room. And I'm not saying that there are no words in powerful roles. We do have four
female CEOs in the JSE Top forty. There are some executives running business lines. But there's also evidence that the pipeline of female leadership is quite leaky.
Okay, so I mean, how do you know? I mean, sometimes a company can have worked quite hard at it still made a few mistakes, but it's clearly trying to sort of change things, and sometimes actually they're not interested, and it can be quite hard to work out the I mean, it shouldn't be, but I do wonder if there are case is where there is a desire to change things, but things happen. I mean, staff get a poached to.
This is true, and you know, maybe they're moving to more progressive companies, but I think the impact will be felt where you know you do have a stronger pipeline of women coming in. You ask the question about whether equality programs are failing, and they're getting it wrong. And I think the ways in which they get them wrong is they focus on the numerical representation but not the
actual in baked cultural transformation of what inclusion means. I think a lot of companies assume that the burden of change lies with the women, and they focus on surface level things like confidence workshops and not actual systemic redesign of what it means to have women in top roles.
And again, like I said, if you're concentrating women in the so called softer roles or the group roles or the shared services roles, and you're not enabling them to run actual business roles, then that's a problem.
I've watched the conversation between a person who was perhaps promoted because of their color, who with a person who actually did an MBA thesis on exactly that issue. It was fascinating to sort of watch the dynamics of that conversation. And doesn't that happen too. So companies come across a person, they want to hit the others, tugers, they want to
look a particular way. All of this is natural. They come across a person and that person And I've had people complain about this to me, And yes, I'm a white man, but I've had black people tell me this. They feel they get promoted too quickly. It's a strange thing because you'd think, well, who gets promoted too quickly that, I mean, why would you complain about that? But actually there are deep season problems there.
It doesn't.
It doesn't.
I think they're like, you know, we're talking about tokenism. But I think there are also very few companies who are going to put people in a core business role without the confidence that they're able to do the role.
And I think they're probably also doing the candidates themselves and the rest of the organization a disservice by implying that a woman or a person of color is getting a role purely on the basis of demographic because one, it engenders negative feelings and the rest of the organization,
and two, it sets that person up for failure. So yes, there are instances where people do get promoted a little bit too quickly in our haste or our excitement to meet a diversity target without putting the proper support systems and fail safes in place to make sure that that person is set up for success. But I don't think it's common that a person is getting a role purely because of their color. Yeah, so I mean or their gender.
But that being said, yes, there are instances where this issue of tokenism comes into play, and we really have to understand what is tokenism and showcasing and what is true inclusion and diversity, because, like you said, I think there are companies who are committed to getting it right, they're just going about it in the wrong ways. And you know, just as a couple of examples of things that they are doing, it's this performative allyship rather than
real support. You know, all these companies right now are posting about Women's Month on LinkedIn, but are they interrogating what is essentially an all male leadership team. They're sponsoring gender summits but maintaining unequal pay bands. They're attending diversity workshops but not actually speaking about bias when it appears
in their meetings. So what our point is is that, yes, we know that there are companies who are committed to getting it right, but are they going about it in the right way.
How do you know if a workplace is properly inclusive with regard to female representation. And it can't just be the numbers. So we look to the numbers because that we can understand, or fifty plus one whatever it is, okay that we get, But it goes so much deeper than that, and that's where it starts to get really complicated to try and actually conduct an assessment of a company culture, for example. And I mean assessing culture doesn't rely on numbers. It relies on something else exactly.
And I think you know, looking at numbers and representation, that's a bit of a cognitive shortcut. That's a measurable that companies want to focus on because you can put that up on a slide deck and it looks great, right. But true inclusion is more than just the numbers. It's the psychological safety where people feel that they can speak up without being labeled as emotional or difficult. It means equitable access to menship or sponsorship, and especially stretch opportunities.
Are people being given the opportunity to work beyond what they're currently doing to grow into a role. And I think, especially where women are concerned, it's workplaces that are designed for real lives and what women are going through. They
don't penalize pregnancy, they don't penalize menopause or caregiving. We know that the domestic load still falls mostly to women, but we're fixing the broken run where women feel that they can't acceed into leadership roles because they have to take a time out to focus on a domestic load.
Can men actually assess if their company is doing the right thing or the company they work for or is it something that only women can? Let me just explain where I'm going with this. A couple of years ago, I was at a workshop, you know, involving a lot of companies and different people, and one what male CEO stood up and gave a presentation that was Adita. He put together in file minute spires PA, right, Okay, there's
no way to get around it. The guy after him another guy that both that both looked like me, if you know what I mean. Both white men talked to the audience in a way that to me seemed to show that he had a much deeper understanding. And I was watching the audience and women were, as far as I could see, he was really speaking to them directly. They were nodding, they were you could see they really
believed him. I thought that was very interesting. It's hard to put all of that into words, but that was kind of my sense in the room. So what I'm trying to get to is, I don't know if men can rarely assess whether they're doing the right thing or not. Sometimes you actually have to ask the woman who work with them.
You are absolutely right. But I think if we take a step back and think about the fact that, first of all, South African business culture is still pretty patriarchal in many ways, and if men do not actively dismantle the structures that benefit them, gender equality is just going to stall at the policy level, because if we're seeing gender equity as a women's issue rather than a business imperative,
then nobody's really going to address the problem. So male leaders who have this disproportionate power and access also hold the keys to change. They need to audit the system and not just the individuals. They need to be asking questions like who is getting promoted and.
What is our pipeline?
Who gets the stretch rules, who gets the benefit of the doubt. They also need to sponsor women, especially women of color. And that doesn't just mean mentoring them, because women don't need mentors, they need allies. They need to refuse to participate in anything that's exclusionary. You know, those golf days, they still happen, the all male panels, they
still happen. Sexist banter still happens. And if men are not saying no to these things, that means that the power is that the power vests and remains vested in a select group of people. Means calling out unfair processes, especially if they benefit just you. It means giving up space. You don't just invite a woman to the table. You move over and you give her space and you call out the bias because true allies understand that gender equity
is not about charity or guilt. It's about strategy and fairness and equity.
Ad Vita and I do thank you Africa a MD at jack Hammer Global The Money Show, Consumer Ninja, Wendy know that your consumer Ninja with us now. Of course, Wendy, you've been looking at this issue. So I mean, I see it happening all the time, and as if you drive anywhere in the evening, you'll see so many people delivering food on motorbikes. It's incredibly convenient. It must be a little bit more expensive though, and I wonder sometimes
how much money we're spending on all of that. What have you been looking at?
Okay, so I have to say it. It was a bank's press release which prompted this discussion, which is quite unusual for me. But yeah, so as you say, those little motorbikes are not just foods that has been ordered from delivery apps such as Uber Eats and mister d but also your grocery delivery. So we're not talking about grocery deliveries. We're talking here about people who who want to eat and then they click going to the app, click and it you know, there comes the little motorbike
with their food. And what Standard Bank did during the course of last month, which is saving some months or non saving months for South Africans. As it turns out, they took a look at what kinds of things their clients were Tierney spending their money on in otherwise habits that if they tweaked them a bit, because nobody wants to go called turky and anything. If they spent a little bit more mindfully, they could actually create a new habit of redirecting that money in the two have to
go hand in hand. You've got to just save, you've got to spend it mindfully, put it away into a fund. It didn't account for emergency spending because it's not happening. Too many South Africans are saying they want to save for any day because we know through experience that rainy days happen, and they happen quite often, but it's actually not happening. So here is how the bank's head of Money Management and Advisory direct us to put it.
So in the context of savings month at Standard Bank, we want to have the conversation around practical ways, you know, to free up cash flown to actually get the money to save. So as part of this exercise, we looked at individuals spending across different income categories and you know, categorized what people are spending on. So one of the things we looked at is subscriptions. Another thing we looked at is things like spending on takeaways and especially food
delivery et cetera. So really to have a conversation around yes, we all know it's important to save, but how do I start practically doing it? And if we're saying times are tough and it's difficult, you know, to save, what are some of the ideas that we can start sharing
with individuals who say, maybe look at this. And it's not necessarily to say stop spending on a certain item or certain category, but it's more to say, if you just take a bid of that money and you start redirecting it towards a savings account, you know, what can the impact of that be and how can you actually use that to kick start your savings?
Okay, so that's what they wanted to do. What levels of sort of spending on food delivery apps do they actually find?
It was quite an eye open to Stephen. I have to say, first of all, more than forty five percent of their clients across the board have no accessible emergency savings at all. And then among private banking clients between earning between twenty five and fifty eight thousand a month, more than a third of them have no emergency savings at all either. So used to says we know that growing one's income isn't always easy because there are external
factors we can't control. But obviously we can control what we're spending on takeaways, right.
You've got to control what you can control. Now, we can't make as much money as we want, but we only spend as much as we need to and want. I suppose yeah.
And you know those of us whose work or home address is very well known to the mister d's and that eats drivers. The starting point would be, actually, let's look at it. Let's be mindful what what are we actually spending on these apps? And you don't have to do any maths. You just have to go into your audit history on the app or apps and it will
tell you all. Stand at bank Starter shows that customers spend on average seven hundred and seventy five round a month on takeout and food delivery from fourteen major food glass food or quick service restaurants as the industry calls them QSR franchises. And as I said, that's not including groceries and supermarket meals. So it's the customers in the late twenties and thirties who are most guilty and adverted is of this. They're hugely embracing it. This is the new,
this is the way to go. And higher the income that they're earning, the more they spend. Those earning more than sixty or around sixty thousand spent one thousand rand monthsly, going up to around one three a month during holidays. Lower to middle income earners, those earning under twenty thousand spend four hundred and seventy two rand, and those earning twenty five thousand a month six hundred and fifteen rand a month.
That's a lot, Steven, So, I mean it sort of edges up right. You don't kind of realize how much you're spending on this because you never sit down and work out what it's costing you a month.
Well, that's the thing I think that applies. And I mean Dorot used to mention subscriptions as well. We don't want to go into that here, but that's the other thing that every month coming if your credit cards. And I think part of it, Stephen is it's you're not handing over money. You're not handing over catches. Not this
conscious okay here, sixty eight rand or whatever. It's all clicked done coming off your card, you know, and it's I think that adds to it, and I just wanted to add something that that bank would appressionally didn't mention, and I think a lot of people don't actually realize, is that the food's not costing you extra over and above what you would pay if you ordered and collected yourself or went and ate inside one of those QSR places.
It's not just the delivery fee of twenty rand or whatever, but all the restaurants actually according to a News twenty four report back in twenty twenty three, they investigated this quite in depth, and most national chains charge between twenty percent and thirty percent more for meals than what their menu prices are for you know, normally, so that they add on their app costs for being on those apps to their customers, and that is a lot twenty to
thirty percent. Then you're paying delivery on top of it, and that's going to erode your bank account quite nicely if you are regular.
Yeah, yeah, very quickly. Okay, So I mean, do you just stop doing it automatically? Do you go cold turkey or do it's another way.
I don't think cold turkey is a good thing. We're going to We're human beings, are resistant to that. So so don't order as often or reduce the cost of the of your takeaways. So don't pay the delivery. If you don't pay the app, marke up price, go and collect yourself or sit in the restaurant. You know, it's it's this convenience click and there it comes on the
scooter thing. That's that's taking away money that if we save the money, don't just save the money that you put it away and have a goal and or just you know, when your car breaks down and you've got to suddenly find eight thousand rand. I mean for most people that will set them back for months and they're borrowing. Yeah, and that's more interesting.
It's a drama.
So you know, there's one of two or three fewer takeaway meals or not having the scooter come to your door. You know, there's the trade off is that you've got peace of mind and it isn't this emotional trauma when suddenly you need to find extra money that you don't have.
Yeah, okay, And I mean in the end, basically the moral of the story is, and this is something you learn when you leave your late twenties and nearly thirties, is that convenience costs.
Absolutely, So it's other forms of food as well. I mean, if you go into a supermarket, there's so many products on the shelves that are screaming pick me because I'm quick and convenient, and we're.
All like, oh well, I.
Are so busy and luck let's do it the quickest, easiest way. All that convenience costs. So if you buy the instant oats instead of spending a whole two or three minutes cooking thoughts the traditional way on the stove is going to cost you a lot more over time. The pre cut and bagged veggies are great, so convenient rather than cutting your own button nut or whatever. All these purchased decisions might seem petty, the pre cooked sources instead of just spending two minutes doing yourself.
They all add up.
And all those habits collectively are what are some of the things that are stopping us or you know, from being able to put a little bit away to help ourselves for when there's inevitable dramas happen to us.
Wendy and Know No, thank you very much indeed on speed doll and free delivery to your home of Wendy and KnowI your consumer Ninja every Wednesday evening, Wendy, thanks very much. The Money Show shape Shift is well. One of the people who's been part of corporate life, part I suppose of what you would call money show life. Perhaps that was a small part of his life for quite a long time, played a big role in our
mining industry. Is July and lawful, and he's coming to the end of his time as the CEO at Tunkala Resources. They're in this sort of transition period and he will slowly be stepping off that stage. And I'm pleased to tell you that he's in our studio nowly good evening. It's wonderful to meet you and thank you for coming through and agree to be our shape Shifter tonight.
Now, thank you so much for inviting me in. Retiring is a good thing. I've finally met it to the f center of Seminoortu Land. Thank you well.
We're very grateful that you game. I think whenever I were you know, the time I spent on Google looking, looking and preparing for tonight, and I noticed you included it in your LinkedIn profile as well. Is that you grew up in gokomehre particular part of some barbie. It's near Masvingo. If you look at it on a map, you went to a Roman Catholic school. They're still up, They're still going. The silver website I saw today. What
was that kind of community like at the time. I mean, Zimbabwe's changed a lot over the years.
I mean Zimbabwe has been blessed with lots of mission schools. So all my schooling life was through mission schools. I went to Pakame for primary. Actually, go Comerera was a small part of my high school. High school education. I went to Surren Mission, one of the oldest missions in in in Zimbabwe, which was an Anglican mission. Then I went to go Coomerera and something quite significant up beened at Cocomerera because I met my my wife.
We've been together for that long. Sure do you think so we talk about education all the time in South Africa? Was there something about the quality of that education that helped you along the path that maybe young people in many government schools here don't get anymore?
You know?
I hold the view that the Rhodesian government did one thing right for the black population of of den Rhodesia and Zimbabwe. They never denied us qualege education. We continue to get Cambridge education all the way into into independence. And when Robert and Gabe came on, the two things that your prioritize, actually, if you think about it, was education and free health. And they built schools everywhere, but with very good qualege education. And I think that set
us up. And for people like me who education was a ticket to changing your circumstance, I was really lucky to have been born where I was born.
I mean I noticed that you spent some time at Columbia, and I was fascinated by this. I mean, Columbia's in the States. It's a big place, it's well known, it's writing with Donald Trump, everybody is. It's quite a journey from Gokomere to Columbia. I mean, did you ever while you were there look back and think, gosh, it started a long way away.
You know that part of the journey is an interesting one for a young person who grew up in the SECONDSS that I grew up, because what is to happen is you're never really sure how good you can be, Yeah, until you get to a place like Columbia where you begin to mix with colleagues from all over the world. In fact, in my class there were forty of us from thirty four different countries, and all of a sudden you begin to understand what world class leadership looks like.
But secondly, you actually just realize I belong, I can be just as good as the next guy. And I think it just gives you so much confidence and just liberates you to be yourself, to go out there and seek to be the best version, not the next guy, not of by Jack Welsh, but of yourself.
You get away from the idea, well, I can only be as good as this place, and in fact you become July and Lavul, the.
Best vision of July and Love, and there's only one of you.
I like the way you put that you studied metallurgy, you studied the science of metal. Was there something about mining that you wanted to do already by that stage quite a young person?
Actually, Interestingly, I mean I told my friends that I'm a filled medical student because I lasted one semester.
Rather than me.
And then what happened was somewhere along the way in that first semester I met a guy called her Kova. He was a senior executive technical director of Anglo American Zimbabwe then, and he started talking about mining and the things that you can do in mining, the difference you can meet for communities where they were actually mining, the role that metals in minerals actually play in the developmental store of humanity. And I just felt, these guys are
doing something really cool. It's different to actually spending time in a in a in a theater. So I just switched immediately. I'd found my passion.
Sure, and you you you enjoyed that immediately. I mean, you were studying. It's one thing to decide to do something. Now you're actually doing it, you're working in mining. Did you find that actually that passion stayed with you?
You know?
I was lucky to work for an organization as biggest Anglo American because what it provided was such a varied experience. In fact, I've only worked for two organizations, Anglo American and Tangala, But in reality I worked in so many different places, so many different experiences, if you can, if you can imagine, I studied in coort, I went to pherochrome, from ferrochrome to Nico to PGMs, which I enjoyed thoroughly, and cycle back to court different organizations. Although you're an
Anglo American. You're experiencing so many different things, so many different markets, so many different commodities, different challenges, and it just grows you as a human being.
So you spend a lot of time kind of in the science of mining, managing mining, and then at some point the kind of I don't know, did leadership tap you on the shoulder? Did someone tap you on the shoulder? Was quite a transition, going from kind of science of mining to sort of leadership. I mean, when do you think you sort of first found yourself in a kind of leadership position.
Probably around about the mid nineties. I made leadership positions first, first line management, quite airly in my career as a youngster. And at that point in time, obviously you you're full of yourself. You think you're the best, do you know everything? In fact, you almost think the guys who from what you don't know enough anyone to change everything. So I've been fortunate to be in leadership positions probably for the
greater part of my career. That transition, more often than not, is not something that you get prepared for because your training as an engineer mostly as an individual contributor. In fact, we engineers think we are the smartest thing in any industry go into and all of a sudden you're not being asked to get the best out of other people. And that's a transition. Just generally, both in mining and most manufacturing organizations, we don't prepare young people very well for.
What makes a good leader. And I suppose, you know, I could walk past any bookshop and any airport in the world and they would have a leadership section. And I often think, you know, maybe I've got it wrong, But there's just a lot of nonsense there. In your experience. I mean, you've been with some of the best leaders in the world, some of the best leadership teachings in
the world. What works? I mean, I can think of certain things off the top of my head, setting an example as one is being decisive, maybe another what for you is the kind of key to it actually getting the best out of people because lots of people try and lead in the fail.
You know, you're so right. I mean, leadership is about followers. Sometimes we forget that to be a leader, you've got to have followers. But it also teaches you that in fact, to be a leader yourself, you have to be a good follower. So this idea of taking people along with you irrespect of what it is and realizing that in fact people choose to follow you, there's not much you can do. It doesn't matter whether it's in politics or
in brisoners. Actually, when you stand in front of people with an idea that you want people to buy into, always remember that people are making a choice. Is this an idea that we're willing to give our very best to realize or not. So that's the first thing about leadership that I learned over the last three decades. In a bit. The other one really about what makes good leaders is to realize what delivers differends. And it doesn't matter whether difference is in sport or in business delivering
good results. Actually, it's about realizing that we're not shout of good ideas. In fact, you know what, you can hire a consulting organization could be McKinsey ben. They'll give you brilliant ideas, but there's one thing they will never give you is how to translate those ideas into results, which is executing. And therefore, how do you build good teams that are complimentary and willing to get together, to work together to deliver superior results better than the next guy.
Because in minding, if you think about it, generally, we all are endowed with good resources. What differentiates the win from the non winner is how well we execute to deliver that value into the marketplace. Is it about putting the right team together? Is it about you talk about a vision? Is it about something else?
I mean, clearly, you've got to sell people on the idea, almost make them sort of you know, almost make them think it's not quite theirs, but give them ownership of it.
You know, the idea of selling this concept that we say, you've got to sell the idea is important, but the idea itself must be compelling. But actually that's not the biggest part of building winning teams. Building winning teams is about bringing together a group of people who can compliment each other in a way that together they are better
than some of the individual parts. And secondly, it's just about you as a leader realizing how do you surround yourself with people who are willing to go to war with you, We're willing to hold you on your shoulders, that they can buy so much into whatever simple idea that you've got that not only do they support it, but they can actually build it into a much better idea because ultimately, if you think about it, I mean we all think the most transformational leaders are the ones
who are We've got these blinding insights and ideas. Yeah, you do find the odds anomalies like ill n mask, but most of us I just put the human beings who are able to orchestrate thousands of people who are willing to take sometimes which is ideas which are not well phoned and just molded into a winning formula.
Is leadership in Southern Africa harder than in other places? We have very diverse groups of people. Sometimes we argue each other until someone from outside Southern Africa comes and then we all fight together against that person. I sometimes think that is leadership harder in Southern Africa than in other places.
You know, since since I've now had the opportunity to have a business in Australia and we set up business in Dubai, I used to believe on this mantra that if you have worked in South Africa and Southern Africa, you probably have very the best training and because it's quite tough to operate here. But the reality is actually you find every jurisdiction. Every culture is. It's a challenges and differences. It's not about whether it's hard to hear
or not. Is whether we can whether you're able to understand the local narrative and the belief systems that make people work up day in day out wanting to give their best, and your ability to harness that latent energy to make people give that extra discussion or effort. And it doesn't matter way it is.
Your extra special shape Shift Tonight is July and Glovell the Sierra Tungala Resources. He's with us for another ten minutes.
The Money Show with Stephen Hrutez is brought to you by APPS of Corporate and Investment Backing. APPS is a proud lead sponsor of B twenty South Africa twenty twenty five, The Money Show, Shape.
Shifters July and Love or your special shape Shifter Tonight the er at Tunguala Resources. I do you'll be pleased to hear July have some questions about mining. There was a time about five years ago when people started to get very excited about how the world was changing and moving away from coal. There's quite a strong environmental lobby in South Africa. We know for example, what happens around Escum's coal fired power stations. Did you ever think, I mean,
there are more and more ways to generate electricity. How long do you think we'll be using coal?
Four steed to appoint you? Or you want me to tell it.
I don't know. Yeah, yeah, well I'm.
Knows other than to say that, I think most people who have written the obituary for coal would be disappointed because the reality is and and and if you go back, I mean, I've been talking about call since since five years, which is the way you're talking about. If you look at the emerging market Southeast Asia, Africa to some extent, where there's billions of people who still need to come out of energe poverty into the kind of modern energe
services that the first world actually experience. What they need is access to reliable, affordable source of energy. This idea that they've got to have a choice, a binary choice of either for a few us call in particular or renewables for me is a false choice. Yeah, I think these energy sources can quite exist, and that certainly is what we're seeing in China is a very good example. China is deploying renewables faster than anybody else combined on
the globe today. Indeed, they're building new paser stations. Is that reality that if you want to continue to drive economic prosperity, particularly in the in the maging markets, you can't wish away this energy source that most people would like who would love to hate?
No, sure, I mean I get that. I do wonder if we're kind of at peak coal or very close to peak coal, and then usage will start to go down, possibly quite quickly.
I think we probably are pick Cole if you ask my opinion. The decline is going to depend on a number of things. And I think what has slowed down decline is, in some instance the activists of the have been their own West enemies by exaggerating the extinction of humanity if we continued as called.
That's one.
But secondly, this idea of any security has become a far more dominant issue in developing energy policy in a lot of countries, and you beginning to see countries saying we can't rely fastly on a concentration of energy from
one region and or only important energy. And therefore countries that if got call within their own borders are beginning to develop that as a resource to secure their own energy sources going forward, and I think that is what is going to slow the decline from what it ordinarily would have been.
Mining in South Africa we're going to ask you a political question now, so prepare yourself. Mining in South Africa kind of it seems to me to be in a complicated space. It is always fighting with government. I thought that maybe those fights would come to a stop, but they haven't. Why do you think that is? Understand the idea that resource extraction is inherently political. Okay, by resource extraction,
I'm talking about mining. Is it just the character of the current minister that's leading to all of these fights? Is there something else that's really driving these fights all the time, because it's got to be better for everybody if there's a better relationship.
Firstly, I think the I want to to change the narrative that this disagreement between or the tension between mining and mining industry and government and or communities is a South African feature. It's not. I see the same thing in Australia where we where we operate that there's always tension between the mining industry and government and we're always going to be lobbying for policies that actually allow us
to deliver value the way we do. Part of it is actually a consequence of what we're extracting out of the ground. It is an endowment that is onned by national states, and I think our role is business is to realize that we've got to do this not only for the benefit of shareholders, but certainly to make sure that the people most affected by what we do that have entrusted this natural endowment to us a better off
as a sut of what we do. I accept that that tension is never going to go away, but it's one I think if we just learned to listen to each other, we can manage a lot better. So Africa is, by its very nature, very loud country. Sometimes our disagreements are a lot louder than actually the reality.
On the ground. Do you think we can do better than we've done? Can we get on a little more easily path?
I think where we can get a lot better is not to focus more on our disagreements, but actually to focus on those things that we agree on, which is, let's grow the mining industry. Let's ensure that investment continues to come into this country. Part of it, Stephen, is actually a consequence of way South Africa's policy spensation comes
from there. We actually a lot of our politicians come out of the Union, uh, and they've got almost this innate zero order belief that business cannot be trusted and that's the result. That's what they bring to any conversation that we actually have, when in fact we all share the same interest. Let's extract this resource economically for the betterment not only for shareholders, but actually for the people of this country too.
July, we've got literally a minute left. What do you do for fun? You've been running a big company. It's very stressful and very stressful environment. Lot's been going on around the world. How do you relieve that stress.
I've got lots of things I do photography, I read a lot, and I've got lots of books I need to catch up on. And I've discovered golf.
I'm so sorry.
Wow, you should meet me a few months after this. Whatughly, I've improved my handicamp. That's what I intend to do, hopefully when I stop working and I wake up every day without the schedule. You see me on the golf course standing in front of winding fairways, imagining what I could do to change this world just with the club.
I can hear you you've retired, you had already what kind of photography, wildlife photography, sunsets.
I I like microphotography. I like event photography because you see fascinating things if you go into downtown that you can just capture and frame. In that small frame, you find history, You find perspectives that you never knew existed.
July, it's been wonderful to have you here. Thank you very much. Indeed, July and Lovo is for a little while longer to see her at Tunguela Resources.
The Money Show with Stephen Hurtez is brought to you by APPS, a corporate and investment back age APPS, as a proud lead sponsor of the twenty South Africa twenty twenty five.
Well, before you go off and start thinking about golf courses and fairways and things, let me just remind you of what's happening about the markets in the US. They are trending up now. The Dow Jones is up point three percent, anastic just up over a percent, and the S and P five hundred up point seventy three. So another positive day there don't forget investment school tomorrow, and of course so much going on at the moment. We saw that with nen Call's results a little earlier today
being a very busy show. If I may just say, it's good to hear from you on the Money Show. We're back tomorrow. Good evening, it's eight o'clock