Nine podcasts. The lead investigator continues his evidence, questioned on exactly what security footage from the evening of the fatal lunch shows. He also tells the jury pulling all of the accused killer's phone records was too expensive for police.
Victoria's mushroom mystery, the mushroom lunch that claimed three lives an Australian family's meal is now the center of a homicide investigation. For bizarre tragedy now grabbing global headlines, Aaron Patterson's alleged victims died after eating a family lunch she'd serve them at her home.
I cannot think of another investigation that has generated this level of media and public interest.
Four of the guests of that lunch were much loved members of this church. Only one will ever return.
People are feeling very heavy with having lost such wonderful people.
Today, Aaron Pattison remained here inside her home. She's continued to plead.
Her innocence.
In a court room in Country Victoria. Aaron Patterson is on trial accused of using deathcap mushrooms to kill. She's pleaded not guilty to murdering three of her former in laws and attempting to kill a fourth the town's church pastor. It's up to the jurors to decide what happened when
Pattison's loved ones sat down to eat now. The lead detective, Stephen Eppingstall, has been giving evidence over a number of days, and during his cross examination with Colin Mandy that our listeners will have heard a little bit about in the last episode, he's been taken through a number of other specific topics and really questioned on particular parts of the investigation.
There was a lot of questioning today that went through multiple topics, but a lot of it was to do with data, CCTV, mobile phone tower pings, this sort of thing, and one of the ones that they spend a little bit of time on today with Colin Mandy asking epping Stall about why certain mobile phone DOTA log records weren't gab for the entirety of the investigation or for about
a year period. That was a twelve month period they were really talking about today and we heard and said that they focused their investigation on collecting this specific type of data analysis for dates that were closer to the lunch and not that twelve month period. And yeah, the detective was quiz on, well, why is that the case? Why don't we have more of this? And he explained that seeking data for that amount of time would be
far too costly. He gave some figures, Penny, saying that when the technology first came available, it was about seventeen hundred dollars for two hours of data, and that if they were to seek a year's worth of mobile phone location tracking data, it would have probably left the homicide squad in with a bill that they needed to pay that would have been in six figures, so very cost prohibitive,
is the way that he explained it. And he said, quote, my boss isn't really keen on spending that much for getting.
And he mentioned as part of this evidence as he was going through it that basically, as the lead investigator, he wants every he wants to throw everything.
At it, said he was greedy Penny, yeah, but.
He said, you know, you don't always get everything. That was how he explained it, and then sort of with that very specific cost as well. But he was asked a lot about the search of Aaron Patterson's home. Now the jury has been told there were two searches, one on the fifth of August twenty twenty three, which is sort of in the week following the lunch and then also another search that was on the second of November
twenty twenty three. Now, when he was the detective being taken through this evidence by Colin Mandy sc he was spoken to about, well, we know that I believe Colin Mandy's words were many many electronic devices were seized, but basically, what about some others that have been shown in some images that the jury has seen up on the screens and these images they've been told were taken from these search videos that were made and still images from that
search on the fifth of August, and the detective confirmed, yes, he did believe that particularly one of these images had come from there, and he didn't dispute that in any way.
And he was taken to a particular room in the house and shown what appeared to be and what Colin Mandy described as a phone box in a basket of sort of in an area where we'd seen other electronics earlier in the house and we'd seen also a sort of a lot of cords and asked asked about that, and that's when the detective sort of said, well, we seized everything we saw our goal was to get every electronic device we could. But he was then taken into what was being described as the Lego room, and this
was a room. In the photos we could see it was shelves sort of built in floor to ceiling, and there was a lot of different items on those shelves.
They were open shelves, and it was a picture that the jury hadn't seen before. We know that the search of the house on both occasions was filmed and then there was these steal images taken from that and that's
what was shown to the jury. But this was a new one that was shown to the court today and the informant was asked to look at what was in that particularly on a couple of bottom shelves on the right hand side of the room he was directed to, and they even zoomed on the image at that time, and there was two particular shelves where Colin Mandy sc was suggesting that whether or not the informant agreed that they could be computers, perhaps these were computers that were
missed or weren't picked up or weren't found during the search warrants. And we know the search warrants had a description on them to search for electronic devices, and epping Stare was looking at them and he spent a bit of time. He zoomed in himself, Penny, and he was asked to look at the way he described them was sort of two boxes, and one of them, he said, yes, was kind of consistent with what could be a laptop.
But the other one, he said, appeared to have a microphone over the top, and he really couldn't agree with the suggestion that Colin Mandy was making that that was also a laptop.
Let's have a little bit of a listen to what the detective said as part of his evidence. This is where he was being asked about one of these particular dark shapes that we could see in the photo in that shelf, it's voiced by actors.
On the shelf on the right hand side, there was a keyboard sitting on top of a laptop.
From that photos, I couldn't And in.
The shelf below that you can see the black case on the left hand side.
Yeah, the black one has a similarity to a laptop, I'll grant that, But that top right one, I couldn't say, sir, what that is.
And these items were not seized by police.
Okay, if they're laptops. This is the first I'm learning of these items.
Okay, all right, thank you. There are other items as well in the premises that weren't seized. For instance, in the pantry there was a USB storage device. You recall that.
I wasn't searching, sir, I was with miss Patterson.
Now, as part of what the detective was also taken through by the defense, he was asked about the seizing of phones from the Pattersons. So the court was told as part of this through what Colin Mandy was speaking about, that there were three phones that were handed over by Simon Patterson, Aaron Patterson's a strange husband, those being his parents done and Gail's devices, and then also his own
mobile phone. Now, he confirmed in his evidence, the detective that he'd initially got these phones on the sixth of August when he spoke with Simon Patterson. But he clarified as part of his evidence that while he had this phone from Simon Patterson on the sixth, that he had taken it back to the office and he hadn't actually been able to download that particular phone at the time.
So because particularly Simon's parents had passed away on what was going on at the time he gave that phone back to him, and then it was on the twelfth of September that it was returned to him via Simon
Patterson and passed on to specialist investigators to download that data. Now, as part of this, Colin Mandy sc sort of pressed him on this in a few different ways, and it was then that Justice Biale actually sort of hopped in and clarified what was being said by the informant or the lead detective, and Stephen Eppingstall gave evidence that yes, he had been told by Simon Patterson that he'd essentially changed phones, he'd got a new handset, but that his
understanding was that the phone that he received back on the twelfth that was then downloaded, that that phone wasn't actually a different one to the one he was given on the sixth, just that they'd had I had this discussion about him getting a new handset, and that he also spoke briefly about Donald Pattison's phone too, and he said he didn't uncover much on that particular phone. It was fairly empty and there was a bit of reaction to that in the court.
There is a lot of laughter in the courtroom at that time. I was sitting in the back row and had a pretty good view of everybody that was in there today, and from all of the jury members, from all of the family members, from the Pattisons and Wilkinson's, they were all having a bit of a chuckle as that was mentioned. The suggestion made that Don really didn't use his phone that much. Even looking at the judge, there was a bit of a smile on his face.
It was one of those softer moments during this trial.
And the jury's also been shown some CCTV. Now they've been shown this a number of times throughout the detective's evidence, and this is CCTV that they've been told came from near a subway store in Lee and Gatha, and it showed a red car and a couple of other things. But when the detective was taken back to this by the defense, there's asked some really quite specific questions regarding that particular video.
Yeah, he was challenged on who it was that the prosecution alleged got out of that car and walked into the subway's store making a purchase. As the person they allege was Aaron Patterson drove away for eleven minutes in that vehicle, which they've been unable to ascertain details about before returning. So the prosecution cases and Stephen eppings Stall maintained that Aaron Patterson had dropped her son off at
that subway store. He'd walked in the dark through some sort of dimly lit concrete walkway into the store, and then she'd come back and picked him back up. But Colin Mandy suggested today Penny, was this really the accused woman's son or was this a different boy? And they used photographs that had been taken of the accused of the accused woman's son during his video evidence and during an earlier exhibit we heard a rocket video he'd been doing with his grandfather Don that we're using that to
try and compare. The defense was to Stephen Eppingstall, is this really him or is this somebody else's.
Let's hear a little bit about what Stephen Eppingstall said in his evidence.
Can I suggest that this is a still from the CCTV footage inside the subway?
Yep?
And that is not the sun.
I believe it to be him, but it's obviously a matter for the jury.
All Right, Well, let's just compare that image then with well, so we all know that you agree that the first photo is the sun. Yes, yes, we'll just show you a still from the video interview now that we know to be him. Yes, two weeks later on the sixteenth of August.
Yeah, the two and a half. Yes, yes, sir, yep.
And do you agree with me that that's not the same person as is depicted in the subway footage.
Oh, to me, he looks more like the subway guy than that first photo, sir.
Yes, Well, that might be right, but it's still not the same person.
Okay, And again that's a matter for the jury, sir.
I'm not suggesting that there wasn't a visit to Subway.
No, I understand that. Yeah, I understand.
That we're saying the path I've got the wrong one, is what you're saying.
Yes, I don't think so, But that's a matter for you, sir.
Just to come back to that, the jury has been told that this particular CCTV came from the night of the twenty ninth of July, that that on that night, there's been other evidence given that Aaron Patterson had been dropping this boy's friend off to his home, and that then the prosecution had alleged they'd gone to Subway and as part of this sort of lead into trying to work out who was the boy being shown in the footage in these very close up screen grabs from the
footage that were being zoomed in, and that you could hear the detective just speaking about. Then in that voiced evidence he spoke to the defense about when they asked, well,
how did you you know confirm this? He says Simon Patterson had told him that there had been a subway dinner that night for his son, and he said that it was then when they went to look for this CCTV to try and find the right time code because CCTV sometimes is out with the times, that he actually asked Simon Patterson to go through the son's bank account looking for a transaction and that it was a transaction from that bank account for about seven twenty five PM
that he relied on to then try and find this CCTV. And as you just heard, then he certainly maintains that this was Aaron Patterson's son in the particular vision. But when he was questioned by the defense, Colin Mandy mentioned, well, how did you know basically that the bank records had the correct time on that too, So there was a bit of back and forth around a few elements of this CCTV.
Yeah, and when Eppingstaal was asked, how do you explain these discrepancies that may have occurred, he said, I've got no idea, and then they moved on quickly to another topic. As we said, there was quite a few today, but that was one of the ones that he was really pressed quite heavily on of his memory of it. And when the different photographs of who the prosecution say Zick's son was shown on the screen, you could see a lot of members of the jury staring at the big screen.
You could also see many members of the public in the courtroom sort of turning and looking at one another. And we know it was a really really packed courtroom again today. There was about six members of the homicide squad attended today alongside Eppingstall who was sitting in the public gallery. There was a number of press and there was also a lot of members of the public as well.
Yeah, and one of the other things that was mentioned regarding Aaron Patterson's children in some of the things that the cross examination has focused on was sort of the memories of the children and the evidence that they'd given in these pre recorded videos that the jury was played
earlier in the trial. Now, Colin Mandy took the detective today to those two videos and in it he was asking about, you know, the sun had given evidence in that video that they'd stopped at an outback jack donut stop at Cooi Rup in Gippsland sort of as part of their trip on the way back from Taiab. Now it was mentioned that yes, that seemed to be correct and that seemed to be consistent with what the jury
has then been shown in bang records. But then there was a question from the defense regarding a stop at the Caldermeaede service station the BP that the jury has been shown CCTV of and a receipt in regards to the transaction made there and what was ordered with a ham sandwich, a sweet chili chicken wrap and a packet of gum shown as part of the evidence of this detective on a receipt that the prosecution alleged was what Aaron Patterson had purchased in the CCTV that has been
shown to the court of a woman entering that service station on that day. But it was mentioned by the defense basically that this wasn't mentioned by the child when he gave his evidence when it was pre recorded and then played to the court.
It wasn't part of his memory. Is the way that the jury was told that when he gave his video recorded evidence, that he only recalled that there was one stop on the way back, and that was at the stop where they stopped at the Doughnut Fan And there wasn't a memory in his video recording of them stopping at the BP at Colder Meade.
And the detective read with that as well, we'll be
back with more evidence after this. The defense, continuing with the cross examination, also asked about again bank records, phone records, phone numbers, things like that, and what was put to the detective was that on the fourth of August, when the homicide squad already had carriage of this investigation, and before the search of Aaron Patterson's home on the fifth, which later that day there was this record of interview that's been played to the jury, that there had been
an email sent that this detective was aware of regarding Aaron Patterson's different bank records, And the defense pressed the detective on whether or not they looked at the bank records all the way back to April of twenty twenty three, and he said that they hadn't. Here's a little bit of the detective's evidence while he was being questioned by Colin Mandy from the defense. It's voiced by actors, and it also includes, as well as the bank records, questions around particular phone numbers.
You knew that Aaron Patterson was utilizing the phone number ending in seven eighty three prior to the execution of the search warrant.
Yes, that is correct.
And you knew that she'd been in the Mount Waverley area in April of twenty twenty three, Yes, sir. And you didn't ask her about that the last of those things in the record of the interview. Yeah, the Mount Waverley the fact that she'd been spending time there in April of twenty twenty three.
No.
No, And you didn't ask her about the fact of the seven eight three mobile number in the record of the interview. No.
I asked her for her phone number in the record of interview, and I didn't realize that she hadn't given me that number. I just wrote it down and just moved past it.
Okay, but she gave you the phone number of the phone.
That she she gave me an eight three five number.
Sir, Did she surrender to the police earlier?
Yeah? Correct, Yeah, I just wrote it down and didn't give it any more thought until later on.
Now, the jury was also shown again a number of Facebook messages and a number of signal messages or text messages that will go through in a moment as part of the cross examination of the detective. Some of the Facebook messages that were they were part of an exhibit that has already been shown to the jury what's been called the online Friends' Facebook chat with a number of different women as well as who the defense said today was Aaron Patterson also sending these sort of replies to
these messages. But today what was shown was a number of other pages between essentially the messages that have already been shown to the jury. And it was mentioned by Colin man dysc that there was around one hundred and eighty six pages of these messages that spanned this time frame that the other messages sort of have come from that the jury's already seen.
And yeah, he said there was context. He wanted to He was saying to the informant that, yes, you've selected a few of these messages and you've told these to the jury, you've read these to the juries part of the prosecution case. But I want you jury explained to you that there's more context here, and I want to put to you, as the lead investigator, that you haven't included all of the messages in the evidence that the
jury's heard thus far. And here there's other women one name redacted, one was another woman who have replied, and then a lot of Eron's messages then follow those.
Replies, and as we said, some of those are messages that the jury has already seen and you may have heard in our previous episodes where this was sort of first covered with the prosecution, But those messages were all sort of centering around how Erin was feeling and sort of coping at the time with Simon and with his family,
especially regarding issues around the children and financial issues. And what was read to the jury today by Colin Mandy while he was doing this cross examination with the detective was a number of these different messages and we'll let you hear a little bit of that now.
It's voiced by actors. Now, I'm not going to go through every one of these messages unless someone wants me to, but I am going to give you some examples of the context. So the first message that's extracted by the prosecution is the third one on that page. So Simon's dad contacted me this morning, et cetera, et cetera, Yes, sir, And then the following messages have been left out by the prosecution's exhibit, which is the discussion that flows from
these propositions. A friend says, what morons at the time ten twenty three thirty six? Is that right? Yes, sir, Scroll down a bit, and then the same woman says shortly after that, anyway, you weren't asking them to adjudicate. You just wanted them to hear your story. And then she says something else that I won't read out.
Yep.
Then comes Erin's response, which is I said to him about fifty times yesterday that I didn't want them to adjudicate. Nobody bloody listens to me. At least I know they're a lost cause. Yes, So, just using that as an example, the adjudicating proposition is part of the context of the conversation. Do you accept that so the word the use of adjudicate.
Yes, yeah, yes.
Then someone asks a question, so you haven't heard from Simon, inviting a response yes, And then there is a response yes, all right. If we go down now page three, someone says it's pathetic, Yes, sir. Someone says, even if he doesn't want to talk about your marriage, they could at least demand to know how he's financially supporting the kids. Yes, And then comes the response which is in that context,
yes sir, yes, thank you. I should make clear your honor, that we have redacted names from this document where it's not miss Patterson, because sometimes the content of what's being said is sensitive, so we have redacted personal information in that way.
Now, some of these messages also weren't read out. They were you could see them on the screen, and the jury has a copy of the messages on their iPads as well. But some of them, particularly when Colin Mandy sort of got to them, he said, oh, I won't read that one out, And one of them was so Simon is meant to pray for his children because he's a shit dad. It makes no sense that was sent by someone said to be a friend of Aaron Patterson
in that particular group chat. So it was something that Colin Mandy put to the informant that these discussions around different personal issues, but also discussions around pets, around celebrities, around deaths that have been reported in the news.
Yeah, the death of Kirsty Ally was one that was mentioned. Penny.
It was put by the defense to the informant that were these sort of random conversations around different topics but also supporting around their own issues in their own lives. Was that sort of what this chat was formed around? And he agreed that yes, there were a lot of these kind of topics covered. But then we're also shown some more of these signal messages, which of signal is something that's been mentioned a number of times throughout the trial, but they're essentially text messages.
That's right. It was Don Patterson and Aaron Patterson's text messages that were spoken about today. Now, these were sent between the first and the fifteenth of January in twenty twenty two, and it was here the jury were told that they the pair discuss some of the accused woman's ongoing health issues, and this included a saw back and Don Patterson messaging the accused saying I hope and pray that it gets better quickly, and you know, it's been
great to chat to the kids this morning. There was replies that went back and forth where Aaron Patterson was talking about the fact that she'd had a terrible day and Donald continued to say, we'll keep praying for you, or keep praying that he keeps you in good health. Aaron then went on to respond that she tried pain relief and eurofin and stupidly that had run out. And then there was more messages about what was going on in the global health pandemic at the time COVID nineteen.
We know that that also hit Lee and Gatha and Karen Burrow because Aaron Patterson was explaining to Donald that she knew that there was a number of cases in that local community at a time.
And sort of saying be careful when you go out and just to ensure that they sort of avoided those COVID outbreaks. Will bring you more updates from the court as the evidence is presented to the jury. Thank you for listening to this episode of Say Grace. Please press the follow button in your app to get our next episodes as soon as we publish.
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