Mobility and Flexility – How Much Is Enough? – Episode 17

Do you ever find yourself confused when it comes to health and fitness? Have you been searching relentlessly on the most effective ways to achieve your fitness related goals, only to find yourself even more frustrated? While we've got you covered, it's time to learn from the best, shorten your learning curve, and truly understand how to achieve your goals without spinning your wheels and wasting precious time. Welcome to the Minimum Effective Dose Podcast.

Welcome back to the Minimum Effective Dose Podcast. I am one of your co-hosts, Mike Perry, and I'm here with my good friend Brett Jones. Brett, how are you doing, buddy? Fabulous. Just a nice little snowy day here in Pittsburgh. Ready to ready to get it on.

Absolutely. Yeah. Same here. The kids are home. They're uh downstairs annoying one another and they're constantly yelling and screaming. And I can't wait to send them outside in the snow. So um it's the first snow day of the year and it's a good old fashioned snow day. No remote. No nothing. The kids are sleeping in. They're watching a little bit of a show. They're annoying one another. And we're gonna send them outside soon. So it's a it's a good old-fashioned snow. Awesome. Gotta love it.

Absolutely. I'm looking forward to getting outside and having a little bit of fun in the snow myself. Um, so yeah, today we're going to talk about mobility and flexibility. Um, they are different. Um, we're gonna talk about sort of uh the ins and outs. How much do you need? how to approach it, etc. So Brett, what uh what would you say the main difference between mobility and flexibility?

Well, broad strokes and uh trying to be non-scientific about it for a second. Uh flexibility is the overall range motion of a joint or series. Mobility is your ability to control that range of And so if we if we look at it from that standpoint, and and obviously we can get into passive versus active and you know different things of that nature.

Your ability to control a range of motion, typically referred to as mobility. Your ability to even have range of motion within a joint, typically referred to as uh flexibility. And you know it. I I know where you're going with this. I said joint, but you know, you can't separate things. Yeah. Um one of the studies that was out there a while back was that uh they had found that people with arterial stiffness lacked a seated tote.

And so the researchers are like, we don't know why this correlates. And I'm sitting there raising my hand because I'm I'm that kid in school, right? That used to raise his hand. And so I'm raising my hand and I'm like, um, you know, I got an idea. Uh, since arteries in particular are smooth muscle and they have some contractile ability and a lot of information that gets, you know, relayed from that, uh, when those arteries get stiff, your brain goes, uh-oh.

Pull it in. Make everything tight so we don't stress that that stiff structure. Cause you you start cranking on a stiff artery. less than optimal. So your body just says, okay, make everything stick. Don't we don't want range of motion right now because we have this arterial stiffness and that's bad.

And you could extrapolate that out into a nerve problem, into a ligament problem. There's a variety of things that are going to convince your body that it needs to pull the reins in and needs to restrict range of motion at the moment. Yeah. that lack of a toe touch for somebody with arterial stiffness is protective. So, you know, there's a there's a whole side conversation to be had here of what creates problems in mobility and flexibility. Is it guarding from uh pain, neurological situation?

A nerve that's under tension, an artery that's understanding. Um is it a true joint extensibility disorder where disorder um makes it sound awful. Joint joint extensibility situation. You know, you can have a tight capsule that's causing some problems. There's there's it

There's a lot to be considered uh within this. And I think one of the biggest things, because you know it and I know it, one of the biggest things in the last few years has been static stretching stupid, right? Nobody should static stretch. And it's like, well, why are you trying to stretch the thing that you're trying to stretch? Do you have a baseline that says you have enough or don't have enough? Let's let's let's not put cart before horse.

Yeah. Well, I mean, and that's it. I I can't tell you how many times people have come in and they're like, I have tight hip flexors and I'll, you know, put them on a table and do a Thomas test or a modified Thomas test and boom. their their uh their hip drops, you know. Past the table and I'm like Yeah, you don't have tight hip flexors or um, you know, in a modified, you can look at the quad as well, but Mike, you know, yeah.

maybe you feel stiff, but that's a that's a different conversation. And and it's hard to educate that new client, right? On all right, why do you feel tight? It's just like, oh, here we go. I could do a a one hour lecture on this, but

Um, it's just, you know, asking them to trust the process and go from there. But you said something earlier about, you know, with the um, you know, arterial stiffness, et cetera, um, and how the body will just kind of lock everything down. And it's like, People need to truly understand that your brain governs all of

And that is something that people truly don't understand. It's truly a neurological uh scenario where your brain is going to allow you to give your body a little bit more gas pedal or a little bit uh well. Oftentimes the braking is not an option. The nervous system will do the breaking for you. Um, but I I feel like a lot of people don't realize that when you're going and you're even trying to approach someone, improving someone's movement.

Flexibility, mobility, yes, having the baseline, but also creating that environment where yes, we can start to provide a scenario where they have awareness of what's going on. Um, and I we both know this, we've talked about this at length, awareness. Is one of the first things that people need to truly understand if they want to make that change, because if they can't feel it,

It's gonna be a lot harder for them to fix it. And I've heard you say this a million times. If you can feel it, we can fix it. And uh I feel like a lot of people, um Maybe they don't know that they have an issue.

in a specific area, but the outcome, what they're trying to do that to their body or what they're asking of their body, they know that there's a problem, they just don't know where. So they they, you know, I have tied hamstrings, I have tied IT bands. I've I've heard that one a million times. Um

In which I explain to them they're supposed to be tight. But anywho, um I I feel like so many people are um just misguided on what they need from a movement standpoint, from a mobility and a flexibility standpoint. And also, you know, we've talked about this as well with the Biden scale. A lot of people think that they need to do mobility or flexibility work and you, you know, run them through the button and they've scored a five or six on the button, and you're like, whoa.

All right, you don't need more movement. You just need to learn how to control that movement. And that's a very, very different approach. But I mean, I I've worked with a handful of clients that were referred to me, oh, you know, so and so's.

stretching their hamstrings, so and so stretching their hip flexors. And I'm like, they can palm the floor. I'm pretty sure they don't need to stretch their hamstrings or you take them through a Thomas test and boom, they drop all the way down. And it's just like Enough with the stretching already. It's like, I get it. Maybe for a week or two you needed that, but now it's time to control that range of motion. Um, and that's something that uh I I truly believe people need to understand.

Man, not everybody needs stretches. Like, how many times have people come up to you and said, Hey man, my hip hurts, what's a good stretch? Or my back hurts, what's a good stretch? And it's like, I know lots of good stretches, but maybe you don't need to stretch. Maybe you need to stabilize. Maybe you need to learn how to get in better positions.

Absolutely. And you know, that person that's asking for an exercise solution to a medical problem who's sitting there saying my back hurts. What's a good stretch for it? Um maybe that thing that's irritated, that little angry animal in the cage. Maybe we should quit poking it with a stick. Yeah. And we should let it calm down. Um, because more than likely that area that's complaining, the problem someplace else.

Uh it was either Vladimir I think it was Vladimir Yanda or it was Gray said, you know, I think it was Vladimir Yanda said he who chases the pain is lost. And so One of the first conversations to have in relation to mobility and flexibility is: are you doing it because you're in pain? Because if you're doing it because you're in pain, we're having a different conversation.

piece or part that hurts more than likely isn't the actual problem. Now I had a student of mine recently, a couple months ago, fell on his shoulder. We didn't have to go looking too far for the suspects for his shoulder hurt, right? He fell on his shoulder. Uh also happened to sprain an ankle at the same time. So, but we didn't have to go, we didn't have to use the joint by joint approach, we didn't have to look at regional interdependence.

Sometimes one plus one still equals two. So, but then there's other situations where same, same person, few couple months later, back gets irritated. Well, it's the opposite side anterior chain. He's looking for a stretch for his right low back. I look at him a little bit and go, it's your left front hip, uh anterior chain. That's the problem. It's kind of you know jacking you out of position. If you're if you You are

Or listening to this podcast, and you're like, oh, I want to learn something about mobility and flexibility because I'm in pain. Please understand that we're having a different conversation. You need a clinician to help you look at that situation and filter that problem. Because if you look at regional interdependence, if you look at the joint-by-joint approach, that thing that hurts, probably just complaining.

The problem, the reason that area is getting overloaded and you're having some pain there, probably someplace else. Um and then it's a completely different conversation if we're talking about a chronic pain. That's we can do a whole other podcast on the the the current understandings of the pain neurometer.

looking at the biopsychosocial approach and and understanding pain from a really different standpoint. But um, and I know you've run into this too, because I've had people come in and say, you know, my back hurts. What's a good strategy? Oh yeah. It's a different conversation. Absolutely. And um it's one of those things too where if you start teaching them, um

you know, the basics of how mobility and stability have this interplay together. And, you know, I always use the analogy of shooting a cannonball from a canoe, right? Um and uh The idea of regional interdependence, obviously one, but the idea of proximal stability and distant mobility is something that a lot of people don't look into and because they can't.

They can't lock a certain uh part of their body down. For example, we're looking at lower extremities. I can't tell you how many times, you know, I'll run people through an evaluation, a movement screen, and they've got you know, very, very, very, very poor pelvic stability every time they take a step, it's just clunk, clunk, clunk.

Um I always joke they they look like the Victoria's Secret models when they're walking and they're up and down the uh the runway, one hip is going high and low and high and low and high and low. And don't get me wrong, there should be some a little bit of hip shifting because that's just what happens in gate. But when we see that big clunk, clunk that side to side that almost looks like a seesaw, it's like, oh man, there's some uh that lack of stability in the pelvis is is.

absolutely impacting the lower extremities and the function of the lower extremities. And as soon as you teach people to lock that down and and uh not only lock it down, but learn how to actually move their pelvis independently from the rest of their body, which is a skill

Um, that takes quite a long time. Um, everything seems to get better. And we see the same thing in the upper extremities as well. It's the ability to, you know, once we level that pelvis off to stack that rib cage over the pelvis, but take advantage of the T spine as well. you know, flexion, extension, rotation, and a combination of, and that's going to impact the upper extremities as well. So, and that simple approach of really getting the torso.

where it needs to be. And then lastly, adding adding on the extremities is is the recipe for moving a little bit better. And um that's what we do at FMS. That's exactly the approach that we take. You know, level the pelvis, there's your straight leg raise.

Shoulder mobility, you know, get your uh your T-spine moving along with the scap and the gluten humor joint. There's your upper extremities, and learn how to lock it down with your stability components. That's it in a nutshell. So I'm in a nutshell. Sorry, that's that was a joke. Sorry, I just I'm gonna be thinking of that every time. Um, but uh you know, went on that little rant, but um

So let me ask you this, Brett. How much mobility or flexibility does someone need? I mean, is is it a waste of time? When when should we stretch? What like how much should we do? Because a lot of people don't really understand what they need. So What what's your approach on that?

Well I'm going to answer that in just a second. So don't forget your question because I'll probably forget it. I I want to circle back on what you just talked about because we talked about, you know, if you're stretching because you're you're having pain, we're having a different conversation. That where you were uh talking around was that concept of I feel stiff. Mm-hmm.

Therefore I need to stretch. Well, that feeling of stiffness could be, we'll use the hamstrings as an example. When you lack good midsection and lumbopelvic control, the hamstrings are obligated to turn on all the time to help stabilize that area. Well, tension and fatigue feel the same at the end of the day. And so that feeling of stiffness can very much be that lack of lumbopelvic control.

So Understanding why you're stretching, what you're stretching is key because there is a so pain, different conversation, stiffness, potentially a different conversation, because now we're talking about that lack of stability. Uh, that's influencing how we can move and control that area. And then there is a third category of people who legitimately need to. Um, you give me somebody that's been behind a desk and sitting in a chair for 30 years and hasn't been very active.

That person has actual tissue adaptation and neurological change. That and patterning, neurological, neurological changes in patterning that are going to mean we have to stretch and convince the body that it's okay to give up some of that. Definitely. This is where aerobic exercise and getting rid of the ischemic reactions and increasing blood flow is going to be really, really helpful. Um, I can't tell you how many leg raises I've changed just by having somebody get into a strap stretch.

With the uninvolved leg bent. So the pelvis is in a nice position, and just doing ankle circle. just doing ankle circles and what are you doing when you're doing ankle circles you're getting everything moving the ligaments are moving the nerves are moving the blood vessels are moving the fascia is moving the muscles tendons uh ligaments everything's getting to to move

And so you really have this very intense kind of neurological situation uh for somebody who's who needs that. So if we look at it from those three categories, I'm in pain and I want to stretch, different conversation. I feel stiff and I need to stretch, might be lacking that midsection or just overall stability for whatever area. And then people that actually need to stretch.

Uh that gives us a way to kind of start categorizing people and making better decisions in why we're doing it. And your question was, how do I know? How to well have a baseline. Have a way to tell that somebody's actually falling below the minimums. how to address that for you and me and a and a lot of other people, that's the FMS.

We're going to look at the we're going to look at how they move from a global standpoint and see if there's areas that we need to dive deeper into and make better decisions on. Um versus spending four hours looking at every single joint, every single range of motion. Because if you look at me, you're going to come down and say, man, your hips are a mess. You have no internal rotation.

That's for a structural reason. I got a big ol' femoral head that doesn't fit well inside my socket, and I have no internal rotation. So You can stretch me an internal rotation all you want. I'm gonna punch you at a certain point because it hurts. But yeah, you know, it's not gonna get you anywhere. Um so have a have a basic.

Have have something that tells you. Um, if we're talking and and this is this will maybe bake some noodles out there and spin some people's heads, but you know, if we're talking ACL prevention and especially uh females and and ACL prevention, not stretching hamstrings. I want some protection. in those hamstrings. Um so I want them to turn on sooner rather than later. Yeah. Um so yeah, have a baseline. No, know what that means. And then know what your goals.

Uh the only people that need to be flexible as a gymnast are um gymnasts. Ha ha. So, you know, understand that when you see splits and you see people getting into these extreme ranges of motion. And this is where, you know, if you look at a yoga journal, um, and I'm not that wasn't to identify any particular company. So if you look at a yoga-based magazine or resource of any kind and you see people in these extreme poses.

Understand that some of those poses were developed by people who are smaller of stature and able to get into some of those positions. You give me a 300-pound lineman. They're not getting into some of those positions. Simply because they got too much structure. Yeah. There's too much in the way. So, you know, understanding what are your goals? What is your baseline?

You know, do you actually need to be stretching something? Is it pain? Is it stiffness? Is it truly needed to be stretched? Um, there's some really different decisions.

Yeah, absolutely. It's uh it's funny you mentioned internal hip rotation because um we've noticed trends over the years, right? You see people, um, you know, there's there's the ad doctor trend where everyone's like, you just got to strengthen your ad doctors. And then you've got the everybody needs to improve their internal hip rotation.

And and uh you know you see this all the time, right? I mean, remember the the neck packing and the the cervical stuff that was going around for a while? All great information, but again, it's like we're chasing these things that yes, they're they're important, but it's Man, there those aren't the big rocks, right? Those are those are the uh those are the icing on the cake. But I'll tell you a funny story. So I grew up playing soccer, as you know, and you know, years of wear and tear in my head.

um in my early 20s i started to develop a lot of pain in my right hip and uh you know i i knew something was going on and i knew that you know internal hip rotation and with flexion essentially a scour test

is not going to feel good. It was, I mean, the second I went into that position, I was about jumping off the table. So I go get my MRI and I go and meet with um, you know, physician uh that was recommended me an Ortho. And they also had a student in there. So I'm explaining to them, hey, this is what I do. You know, these are the positions that hurt, and these are the positions that are okay. And I was explaining hey, if I'm in supine and I abduct my hip.

Then I can gain a little bit more uh internal hip rotation. But in a true scour situation where I'm at that true 9090 position, it's gonna hurt. So what does she do? She puts me on the table and goes, and I was like, she's like, how'd that feel? I go, it felt terrible. I I was trying to be polite, but I was like, could you please not do that again? Because it really, really hurt. But um, and and that was something that

I knew myself because I was like, listen, I I had an understanding of some basic hip mechanics. And I was like, hey, I know that this isn't good, this isn't good, and this isn't good. But I feel like What people do is talk about internal hip rotation, right? They go and they they read a an article by someone that has a big name.

And they're like, I need to do more internal hip rotation. And they start to doing it and then they start to bang away at it, bang away at it and come to find out, well, guess what? You've just you've just been jamming a joint together and you're not doing anything to improve the the range of motion via soft tissue quality.

You're just banging away and you're gonna make it worse. And you know, that that labrum that was already starting to get beat up. Well, guess what? You just started to gnaw away at that thing again because. You were just hammering it away. And and I think one of the

Biggest mistakes people make with with you know mobility, flexibility, whatever the hell you want to call it, is they keep on trying to improve it. And at a certain point, like if you're not getting any change within even a couple of weeks of doing it consistently. There could be a bone there, and guess what? You're not moving bone. Doctors can do that or car accidents.

You know, if you've been trying to improve your internal hip rotation for years, it's probably not going to happen. Or perhaps maybe your approach has just been really, really Hundred percent. And you know, I'm I'm a great example of what you were talking about in that I I knew I lacked hip internal rotation, so I decided that I was going to aggressively go after it and pursue it. And uh lo and behold, I end up sitting on my doctor's table complaining about how bad my hip.

And he's like, You look like one of my 75-year-old patients who's ready for a hip replacement. Like, what the heck's going on with you? And so we do the MRI orthogram and anterior labrum is completely torn. Anterior superior labrum has two paralabral cysts. Um, I have a high alpha angle, femoral head, uh CAM-style FA.

which means square peg, round hole uh things, things bang into each other. Uh that's versus the pincer style where you actually have a thickening on the anterior lip of the That's what's getting pinched. by the femoral. And that was me. So you're your pincer, I'm Cam. Hi. Um and so You know, I I made that mistake. I made that mistake. I I aggressively pursued it and was I accepted the idea that I got into certain positions and I can remember this with Cossack.

When I would do unassisted Cossacks, I would have paint. Especially in my right hip, also on the left, but it was less. So it was okay. Um, so you know, I would uh Uh, I would go ahead and do those because it was cool to be able to do, but um, you know, turns out years down the road, um, all of those little warning signs that I thought were normal to trying to increase the range of motion.

uh we're not doing me any favors. And I think as much as I absolutely believe in the the idea that we should be able to manage our bodies and we should be able to do a lot of self-care. There's also things we're just not very knowledgeable.

And there's things that we need help with. And um, you know, if you have a joint that is blocked because of some capsular restriction, if you need an actual joint mobilization, you know, two to six visits with a good manual therapist, physical therapist, whatever, um, can get you six months of work. two to four visits. Um it's it's amazing what can happen.

So I I think that um you know some of my issues with some of the mobility and flexibility techniques are out there and banded this and pull on this and you know crank on this and Mm. I think some caution uh could be Absolutely. And um, you know, that that brings me to the discussion of um

You know, when you are trying to really improve movement, there is going to be a little bit of discomfort. If you're getting into a deep stretch and you have to breathe through it, um, it's not going to feel it's not going to feel great. And but you have to learn to differentiate.

true pain and the sensation of a deep stretch and also getting into positions and just, you know, breathing and learning to relax. And I think that's something that a lot of people um don't understand is that yes, like, for example, like, you know, a lot of people want to learn to do Now, if you do not have the appropriate hip and pelvic architecture, you're never doing a split. I don't care.

about anything else. I don't care about how many gurus you think you can see. At a certain point, some people aren't going to do it and some people are. And and it's simply based off of the architecture of your hips. So I think One thing people do not realize is that your bony architecture dictates a lot. And there is the neurological component as well. But listen, man, if your hips aren't made to move a certain way.

You can't do it. And I don't care if you want to use all the fanciest, latest and greatest techniques and trying to move uh try and improve your mobility, flexibility, whatever. But listen, at a certain point, there's bones there. And the goal would be to find a way and create a strategy to Improve and optimize your own flexibility, mobility, movement competency based off of your own architecture. And that doesn't mean we need to all get x rays.

and go see what the hell's going on. But my point is is that's when understanding your body and having some awareness makes a huge difference. And I always tell my clients this, hey, if I take you through some mobility drills and some flexibility work and you feel better, that's a really good sign. But if we do those and you're your hips pissed off for three days after.

You know what? I think we need to maybe have someone take a peek at that because in general, people stretch and do flexibility work to feel better, to for it to be restorative, to improve their lifestyle. And yes, there is. Oftentimes uh often scenarios where you can decrease pain. But If the end result after that, those sessions are, man, I feel worse. Something's going on there. And you got to get that checked out by a medical professional.

Well, and to expand on that just a little bit, uh, you might feel because people will ignore this, you might feel good inset. And then either later that day or the next day, you get sore. Mm-hmm. That is still a negative response. Hundred percent. And people will say, well, you know, I felt great in the session. I d I just don't know what the problem is. Well It's probably irritated because of got into a position or a range that was actually impinging something or

happen. Um, I think that um, you know, one of the things that I talk about and let's just use the leg raise strap stretch as an example. Um I only want you to bring that leg up until you feel the beginning of a stretch. And the way most people approach stretching is they seek the maximum stretch. They want to push until it's all they can. Well, when was the last time you enjoyed being forced to do something? There was there was one time in college for me, but you know, it's

No never since. And so 20 bucks is 20 bucks. Easy. Sorry, that's that's a layup. We're going to have to edit that. I was just talking about mowing lawns. make some extra money on the side. I don't know where your head was going, but whatever. It was worse. Uh so but yeah, uh find the beginning. Go easy. Let's coax the movement out of the body. Instead of forcing it, instead of jamming to the end range, instead of forcing it till it's all you can take, find the beginning.

Yeah. Do some ankle circles. Let your body know that everything's okay. Then go a little further. The stretch comes back. Repeat the process. You'll be amazed at what you can get out of the body when you stop trying to force it and you start stop trying to max it out. Uh you'll you'll be amazed at what your body will give. And so that's a it's a really different mindset than most people bring. And then, you know, from an instructor standpoint as a coach.

One of the things important for us to understand is that when we show one inch of movement. The person we're showing it to sees three inches of movement. And then they're trying to impress you, so they go for five inches of movement when they should have been doing a half an inch. Exactly. So Little little chunks. Start at the beginning. Don't try to force. Don't try to max it out. And if you if you bring that mindset to pretty much any stretch, I would argue you're going to get better results.

And there there is you know something that um became very popular there for a while was um I hate to say this, but there were a variety of hypermobile folks who were teaching mobility. because they're good at it. Yeah. Right, it's it's like me teaching strength. I'm I'm pretty good at being strong. And I I'll just fully admit, um, one of the exercises that I struggle to teach with people is the one-arm push. I never couldn't.

I saw I saw Naked Warrior. I was a decently strong guy. Um similar conversation with push up with uh pull. Where I mean in high school, I'd do six sets of 12 behind the neck pull-ups, flip around, do a set of 20 plus to the front, and then start my workout. Thank you. Like that was just how I warmed up. I was good at pull-ups. I was good at one arm push-ups. pretty much right away. I mean I could do a one arm push up and very quickly a one arm, one leg pushup. Like I didn't struggle.

Mm-hmm. And it's you know, everybody out there should be, you know, eyes should be getting a little wider or something and thinking about that thing that you struggled to do. that injury that you went through, that you went through the rehab, that you're now really good at helping people with. It's how we learn. Struggle is how we learn. The things that we don't struggle to do, we don't learn as much because we didn't have to go through the process.

So and then you show people extreme ranges of motion. And they're like, well, again, they're seeing more than you show them and they're trying to impress you. So they try to give you more than they even saw. So sometimes what we need to do is show less. Do less and start at the beginning. Be gentle. You'll get there Yeah, be patient too. I mean Yeah.

What I know. Tell me we're we're both looking at each other saying, be patient with and we're the most impatient individuals on the planet. But um You're talking about. Um, but but yeah, going on the mobility thing, you're totally right. And um, you know.

If someone is genetically hyper hypermobile and they've been, you know, always been able to do things, you're right. Maybe that's not the person that is uh the best to listen to. But also there's those individuals. Well, maybe they started martial arts at a very, very young age.

or gymnastics where they've always just maintained this level of flexibility and through the years they've been able to maintain it and keep it because they never stop doing it. And I think that's another thing people don't understand. It's like Oh, I've been a martial artist my whole life, not myself, but or a gymnast. It's like, yeah, those people tend to move really, really well because they've been doing it since they were five years old. But again, you know, going in, uh, you know.

It's not to say that hypermobile clients can't be a great coach, but I have more respect for the individuals that weren't that hypermobile that have worked hard to do some pretty um when I say impressive.

Not impressive for the sense of just trying to get likes and show other people, but um being able to do what they want with their body without having any type of negative uh sort of adaptation. Um, but again, just just pay attention to who you're listening to because You know, buying in this flexibility or mobility program from a genetically hypermobile person is like Shaquille O'Neal teaching you how to dunk.

I don't I mean the guy I forget how tall he is, but he can basically reach up and pretty much touch the rim. The guy doesn't even have to jump. But like that's not the guy you want to talk about. Maybe you should be talking to like Muggsy Bogue. about, you know, what he did to get a little bit more uh vertical leap, but

Um, I wanna I wanna circle back um earlier to uh something that you mentioned. You said that, you know, maybe when we do something, you feel good in the session, but two days later it may not feel good. And we need to take that same approach when it comes to uh Incorporating new exercises for your clients, but also as we start to repattern um certain movements. So I've worked with a lot of people with low back pain, disc issues. And as we start to

Teach them to hinge and then, you know, start to load that up a little bit. Day one, man. Once we teach them how to hinge and we actually get them to do a deadlift, two sets of five. Because I always say to them, they're always like, I can do more. And I'm like, listen, you may feel good now, but I need to see how you feel in two days. And if in two days you're feeling good, we'll add another set. We'll go to three by five.

And then same, same process. And then we'll start to get to an appreciable load, but you have to start. And people are always going to want to do more. They always I could do more. I can do more. And it's like, yeah, I know you can, but let's just see how your body responds. Let's see what happens from a tissue adaptation standpoint. Um, when you're working out, you get the endurance, you get the do uh the dopamine. You feel everybody feels a little bit better when they're training.

When you cool down, when you know, you have a day of work, maybe a poor night of sleep. Let's see. how that's going to work. So um take your time and and and and have some incremental um have an in incremental game plan because uh that is going to be key. Because if you overdo it, guess what? You maybe just lost a week of progress because you decided to be a hero and do five by fives with weights that you haven't touched in forever. Um, and then

Now you're dealing with a back issue again, or et cetera. So I think the key here is um incremental progress. Be okay with doing a little bit and then stepping away and seeing what happens. and then rinse and repeat. If it worked, cool, add a little bit. If it didn't, don't do it. Funny how that works.

A couple of things I want to highlight there. When you reference working with people with low back pain, these people are cleared by a medical professional. Yeah. Absolutely. So That's that's I think that's an important caveat. Uh and I know You and I know that you were saying that without saying it. Yes. But for the people that are listening, let's say it. Like that person has been cleared by a medical professional. They've come in and said, my doctor wants me to.

Mm-hmm. Cool. Now we've got something that we can work with. When somebody comes in off the street and they say, God, my back's killing me, what's a good exercise for that? You guess what'll give you back pain? Tight hip flexors, tight hamstrings, lack of lumbopelvic control. Bone cancer. Colon cancer. colon cancer, little things like that. Maybe we should not jump in and think that we can heal it.

Um, and and so I just want to make that, we just want to throw that caveat in there because I it's important for people to realize that when you say, I work with people with low back pain, it's I work with people with low back pain that have been cleared to What yeah, 100%. And 90% of the times they are referred to me from local clinicians. Exactly. It's a just a continuum of the process. That's all it is.

And that's, you know, when we can do a whole other podcast on post-rehab and the realities of bringing people from physical therapy and continuing that process. And I wanna I wanna key on it just a couple more things. That process of um Building the program. I will work with people and I will add one exercise. And see how that exercise impacts them. Because if I if I add one exercise and you have a negative response, Pretty sure. List the suspects. I add ten exercises.

And then you get a negative response. Now I got to start back at zero. I don't know what could have caused the problem. Could have been one any one of those 10 things. So the again back to the patient. Uh, the person that I'm working with has to understand. And I I I go through this conversation with them. Um, I'm gonna add this thing, maybe two, um, and we're gonna see what the impact. Because now I've got a very short list of suspects if I get a name.

If everything settles in just fine, you're doing great. Next session, maybe I add something else. Don't and a lot of people run into this, they'll start a new routine. There's 15 different things in the routine. They get an at an achy back, a sore knee, whatever the case may be. Well, what the heck out of the 15 could have done it?

you know have a process of building a program that allows you to filter the results that you're getting in a in a better way so that you can understand how that new exercise or whatever it was impacted. And that incremental approach, um, being willing to be Um, I've learned that lesson the hard way. I'd like for the people that I work with to not have to learn it the hard way. Um, but uh I will say that now in my my old age and uh you know post-cancer self, I'm a little more patient.

Yeah, uh I'm with you on that. Um, you know, let's let's uh kind of shift gears a little bit. So when we talk about mobility, flexibility, movement competency, um I think we need to ask the question, what are you asking of your body? Because a lot of people say, I want to get more flexible.

Okay, cool. That's that's not a bad thing, but what are you asking of your body? Because, you know, going to the gym and doing some goblet squats and some lunges and some push-ups and some rows is very different than running an iron. And uh very different than grappling. Uh very different than cutting, running, sprinting, changing of direction. So

Um, obviously we know what the norms are. We know how should people should move in general. And and even though within those norms, there's some gray area because everybody is a little bit different, but. Remember, what are you asking of your body? That individual that wants to come in and get a nice training effect. Um, you don't need to spend a bunch of time having them do these fancy drills. Okay. Um,

Maybe they can just do a handful of drills that will allow them to maintain their squat, that will allow them to maintain their deadlift and their lunge. And I think people spin their wheels by adding all of these extra drills. Now, if it's a grappler and they need to really optimize their hip abduction and external rotation, essentially like Faber, for a triangle, that's a very, very different need than someone that is just going to do some lunges.

et cetera. So always ask yourself, what are you asking of your body? And then we can start to really filter and and put in place a program that is going to be optimal for you. Because if we can get by with 10 to 15 minutes of movement work and flexibility work, there's no need to do 30. It's like take the minimum effective dose. I had to do that. That was that was that was there the whole time. I was just Build it's a layup.

That's a layup. It is. But uh, but again, just always ask yourself, what are you asking of your body? And and I truly believe that. You should always give yourself a buffer zone. I use the analogy of giving your clients more lanes. Um, if you move poorly, it's like driving your car down a one-way road. If you don't pay attention, you're gonna bang into

All right. But if if we can give you another lane, if we can improve your movement quality and give you another lane, you still have to pay attention. But if you goof up a little bit or maybe you overreach in certain scenarios, you're not going to have this really

um negative sort of scenario where you're injured or where you're hurt. Sure, maybe something will get a little bit of fussy for a day or two, but um it's going to come back a little bit faster. So we can add those lanes. And if we can add more lanes, Um, we have more options. And when we have more options, we can do things that we like. And um

I think that's a principle that a lot of people don't understand is that moving well gives you options and moving well allows you to acquire skill depending on what you're trying to do as well. Because Um, poor movement can absolutely be a barrier to skill acquisition. And I don't think people look at that that way. I just think I just need to do more of this. And it's just like, well, like jujitsu, yeah, they want to get better at triangles. Cool.

You're only going to get better at triangles if you can get your hips in that position. You can do all the technical work you want, but if you can't get there to begin with, it's going to look like something different. So I wanted to sort of add my two cents there because I felt like it's one of those things where people truly don't understand that continuum of what they truly need.

100%. If you hadn't mentioned buffer zone, I was going to. Uh I love the the adding lanes uh analogy of being able to have wiggle room and and and buffer. You know, if you're and and so the there's a competing mindset out there that you you only need to work within this certain range, and as long as you can work within that range, um, you know, we'll run into this in the deep squat versus vertical leap.

You know, I'm never going to get into a deep squat in order to do a vertical leap. So I don't need to do the deep squat. Well, hang on. If you restrict your motion to the point where you can only vertical leap when you get pushed beyond that range. potentially run into problems. Whereas if you open up that buffer zone, you have those extra driving lanes and you can swerve a little and make some mistakes and have room for correction. Life is way different.

Um, you know, we know that ankle mobility is a risk factor for musculoskeletal injury. So having adequate ankle mobility is a key, you know, area to to focus on. We know that if your hips are mobile, your back and lumbopelvic control has a better chance of being We know that if our lumbopelvic control is good, our T-spine can be mobile. And if our T-spine is mobile, then scapulus can be smart and our neck can be.

you know, stable and and have its range of motion, the cervical cervical spine is worthy of its own. Complicated. you know lots lots of stuff going on uh up in the neck and uh so Yeah, understanding what your the demands of your activities are going to be. Having a buffer zone so that you you meet the minimums and that establishes a buffer zone for you so that you can have those extra lanes of movement is just a great way to look at mobility.

And flexibility. And so, you know, when you run into a restriction or something that you think should be. You know, looking at the mobility. I'm sorry, looking at the flexibility and looking at active version. And that's usually a conversation to be held with a looking at good just joint mobility. and optimizing what you have access to. All of those things are just going to One of my new favorite sayings, feeling good feels good. And being able to have good mobility.

having the flexibility that you need feels good. You can go through your routine and go through your day and and not uh run into those barriers. And you know, I've I've worked from home for seven. Um so when the pandemic hit and everybody's like, Wow, how has your life changed? I'm like, not much.

Uh, because I was sitting behind a computer for hours a day. Anyway, the thing that changed was travel and that that was nice. But um, you know, I've known for years due to the fact that I sit on a computer. Um god, I gotta move and I gotta stretch anterior chain. So you know I I know where those areas are and I know to pay a little bit of extra attention to them. And now I'm just kind of rambling so I'll Yeah, I was just gonna cut you off anyways. Yeah.

Um, actually you said something earlier that I want to touch upon. You were talking about, you know, the deep squat um in a vertical leap. Um you're right. Uh the deep maintaining a deep squat. is going to give you some extra buffer zone, some extra mobility, some extra runway. maybe things aren't going well on a certain day, you're still gonna be quote unquote okay when you're trying to do those movements.

So we don't want to create enough mobility or movement competency just to do one exercise because that's silly. We want to do enough where globally and universally we can move well and we can have posit positive adaptations. Um

uh uh through various movements and and various planes. Um, you know, one of the things that we we we both teach a lot is the deadlift and the kettlebell swing. And uh early in my career when I Uh started getting uh introduced to kettlebells. I was dealing with some back stuff. And I just had heard, hey, kettlebells can help people with low back stuff. And I was like, okay. So I grabbed the kettlebell and started swinging it. Not well, um, I might add.

And eventually I got a little bit better at that and learned how to swing. But um, a lot of people will say things like, Hey, you know, do kettlebell swings are great for your back. And it's like, Okay. Or a lot of people say, oh, you know, I finished up my uh my PT and I want to do kettlebells. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes a little bit. Um, there's this process in which we need to go through.

Um, and we need to get you to the point where you are resilient enough that your body can withstand some bad reps. And what I mean by bad reps is not that we're going to uh, you know. add in poor movement for the sake of poor movement. But when you're learning, every rep is not going to be perfect. So you have to feel the good reps and feel the not so good reps. But

If you are one or two quote unquote bad reps away from tweaking something, you're not ready to do a kettlebell swing. You need to pattern the hinge.

You maybe need to deadlift from a 12-inch box to repattern and start bringing that box to the ground and eventually start doing some um, you know, some drills that require the hip hinge at various speeds. And then yeah, maybe it's time to introduce a kettlebell swing down the road, but Um, it's important to understand that we need to have enough movement competency and resiliency that we're not always one bad rep from a catastrophic injury.

And that is something I feel like people truly need to understand. Like the one arm deadlift can be one of the most amazing deadlift variations for people that are cleared and that are getting back to hinging. Especially if you do like two on the right, two on the left and you alternate.

There's so many beautiful things going on that will help develop that resiliency. So, yes, it's an anti-rotational drill. It's great for grip and shoulder packing and um anti-rotation, blah blah blah. But there's also um a component where it it makes you more resilient. And that's really what it's all about, being resilient and durable.

Definitely. And I and I think that uh you know my my wife has a background in ballet, professional dancer, um and uh long yoga career and um you know those things. Um, it it's funny. I'll I'll come back from a workshop and say, Oh, I learned this really cool thing. And she's like, Yeah, that's a ribcage isolation from my jazz warm-up. Um it's cute that it's cute that you learned it, but uh that's that this is where it came from.

Um so you know the there there's there's ways to go after this stuff uh and and open up those buffer zones and have a process. Have a pathway, have a have a process. Um people tend to hop in in the middle or Lord forbid, at the very end. And they try to go, you know, high skill, high velocity, high power. And some of that results from used to couldn't. Ha ha. That's look that up guys.

Look, Google that used to couldness. Um, that's a chronic condition that uh a lot of people, in particular males, uh tend to walk around with because we used to could. Yeah. And when we were in high school or when we're in college and we we could do X, Y, or Z, uh, we still walk around with the impression that we still can. And the reality is you're a used to cook.

And there's time to be spent in opening those patterns back up so that you can again. And uh I I I firmly believe that a lot of problems from training just result from use to couldn't. Where people just hop in and they're like, well, I used to do this. Cool. That's that that's good. That's fantastic that that's in your background. But that's in your background. You are here now. You know, it's a be be helpful like at the mall where you have the you are here dot.

Yeah. It would be helpful if we had a you are here dot for our physicality so that we prevented people from living in their use to couldn't. Yeah, it's it's like uh the old thing. So where should I start? Yeah, probably at the beginning. Where you are. I I I joke with people all the time that uh you know and I I don't do motivation. If you're looking for somebody to motivate you, you should find someone else.

Yeah. If you're looking for someone to meet you where you are and walk the path with you to where you want to be, I'm in. And tell you that if you're looking for someone that uh will tell you about your kettlebell skills in a brutally honest fashion in which you go in the corner and and cry for several months. Um that would that would be you. That's another conversation. I think we've covered that anyways. Um

You know, you were talking about, you know, they used to cut. I call it the Uncle Rico effect. Um, for those of you who haven't seen Napoleon Dynamite, um, Uncle Rico's one of the characters and he's like, When I was your age, I could throw a football a quarter mile. And um over that mountain.

Yeah, exactly. And you get that all the time. I mean, I can't tell you how many, how many people have come in and I'm like, you know, so you know, have you exercised? Yeah, you know, I I I played football in in in high school. Dude, you're 54. Like, great. That's a great story. Uh and and uh, you know you and if they were the captain, you know that they were the captain because they will tell you they were the captain of the football team. Um, but and listen, there's nothing wrong um with with

You know, sharing that information, but just because you were something in the past doesn't mean that that's what you're capable of now. I mean, man. I had here I had hair 15 years ago. It's gone now. So it doesn't mean it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. But um but I I truly do think that people need to understand they're not what they used to be.

Um, for a a variety of reasons, whether it's just getting older, whether it's been through um, you know, traumatic injuries, well, it's musculoskeletal or neurological or disease, et cetera. I mean, listen, as we age. We we accrue mileage. And that's just how it is. And really one of the main goals of of of moving well and and um improving your flexibility and mobility should be to live a healthy functional lifestyle. And I can't tell you how many times

Um, I've worked with individuals that have been in wheelchairs that are like, listen, you know, my goal is to just be able to pick up uh to be able to stand again. Or when I work with grandparents, they're like, I just want to pick up my grandkids. Like, You know, when you're younger, yeah, lifting the heavy weights and stuff, that's really cool. And and there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm gonna tell you right now, when you get older,

No one's going to be saying, I wish I did more metabolic conditioning or high intensity work. Everyone's like, I wish I spent more time stretching and getting stronger. That's what every single one of my clients says.

They're not like I wish I did more Ironmans or half marathons. No one ever says that when they're, you know, later in life and all banged up. It just doesn't happen. And that's why moving well and having You know, the optimal amount of flexibility andor mobility for yourself is that's going to be one of the keys to living a A healthy and uh and a functional and a fun lifestyle. And and I see it, man. I'm, you know, be 42 years old and and I've got some mileage, but

I still move pretty well, but I see people that are my age that whether it's people I grew up with or just people that are at the gym and I'm like, man, you know, they're walking around, they're like, oh, it's this, it's this. I'm like, dude, you're in your 40s.

I'm like, you still got a lot of life left. Let's let's try to get ahead of this and and and do what we can to fix this stuff. Because man, if you keep on going at the this rate, you're gonna you're gonna be dealing with a bunch of joint replacements before you know it. Definitely. It's uh comes back to that uh health and fitness.

uh conversation and that uh the goal is health fitness is a vehicle to improve your health Um, and part of that conversation is maintaining flexibility, mobility across a lifespan. uh so that you don't stop doing things because you can no longer access those ranges and and and movements. And uh so it's an essential part of the conversation of health and fitness and it's something that deserves

To be baselined, it deserves to be monitored, it deserves to be trained. Um, and it's something that should be a real positive. in in everything that you're doing. So uh you know, I've I've had the same experience with uh grandparents that are just thrilled to be able to get down on the ground, play with their grandkids and get back up again. Yeah. And uh, you know, that that just changes their life because then they're the fun grandparents.

Yeah. You can get down and do stuff and and play. And um, you know, that that just makes a tremendous difference. And then, you know, just being able to access those ranges and and and accomplish the things that you want to be doing on a daily basis. Um Freedom of movement is uh freeing.

I think we can uh maybe wrap there that uh the overall message is uh helpful. And uh that freedom of movement is freedom. And um have a baseline and uh be paid. Kind to yourself and patient. One one of there's about two or three memes that I think are actually good out there in the world. And uh one of them is that uh exercise is a celebration of what your body can do, not a punishment for what you ate. And movement should feel good.

So anyway, that's I could ramble for the next hour on I've got. That move you do have movie quotes. You have that movie quotes and a little bit of knowledge about other stuff. Um I was gonna go matrix on you and go residual self-image because uh you know when they pull pull Neo out and then they drop him back into the computer program, his hair is back, the implants are gone, his clothes are different. this is your residual self-image. This is the digital projection of your

virtual self. And so you know that's that's how a lot of us walk around. So just make sure you're not walking around in residual self-image, used to goodness. Freedom of movement is free. Absolutely. So uh I think we're gonna end it on that note. Um, thank you all for listening. Um, if you are listening to this on various platforms, if you could uh put a positive review up for us, that would be fantastic. And also if you have friends, colleagues,

relatives, et cetera, that you feel that would benefit, uh, feel free to share. So appreciate you all. And we'll see you on the next podcast. Hey friends, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, we're gonna ask you for a favor. Please leave us some positive reviews. Be sure to subscribe and share with your friends, family, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening to the Minimum Effective Dose Positive.