Dr. DE martini, I want to thank you. And I have to tell you a little bit of a story because it was 2019, where a man came into my life and completely changed the trajectory of my life. And that was actually Bob Proctor. And he became my first mentor, I became extremely committed to his teachings and his learnings, and it was inside of that space that I found you and your work. And I can honestly say, my life has never
really been the same sense. And so it is because of work like yourself and Bob, who I adore that. So many people's lives are in incredible places. And I want to say thank you for your work. And thank you for also coming on to this podcast. And our listeners are going to be so excited. Thank you, and on the splash. Thank you. Thank you. So I thought I was just talking about Bob Proctor. And I've heard your story about someone who can change your
life. And I know someone, there was a few people probably who had an impact on your life. And I always think of the Aristotle quote, show me a man for his first seven years and I will tell you who he will become or something like that. And if we think about life, in that vein, one might look at your biography, one might look at your body of work and all of your achievements and go, Okay, well, he was an intelligent boy, who did very well at school who must have had this intrinsic
love for learning. And I would love for you to speak to that, because that sort of puts Aristotle's theory there a little bit kind of on its head. So I would love to know where this started for you and your journey to where you are now. I had when I was a young boy, I had learning challenges. I went when I was a year and a half old, I had to start going to a speech pathologist. And use strings and buttons in my mouth to try to pronounce sounds
properly. When I was also want to have I ended up with a arm and leg to forming, which wasn't really recognised fully until I was trying to stand up. And my leg was turned into my arm was turned in. And so I had to wear braces on my arm and leg till I
was four. So the first four years of my life was you know, clunky braces, Mr. Mulligan, left arm and like and speech pathology going to when I got to first grade you're supposed to learn to read, you know, they have the big books and you with a stick point to it and this kind of thing to say all these words and try to do syllables and things. Whatever I did, it just wasn't cutting it. I went from the normal reading to the remedial reading to wearing a dunce cap with a guy named
Harold Dalrymple. We had to face the window to we decided we're going to read which never happened. At finally the teacher contacted my parents. And so in front of me in a little reading room, little reading circle. I'm afraid your son is never going to be able to read or write or speak or communicate effectively, probably won't go very far amount too much in life. And at the time, I didn't have any reason to believe different. I was having
difficulty in school. The way I made it through elementary school was asking the smartest kids questions and pointing to the books and saying what what did you learn? What did you get? And that worked till I was 12 I made it through school with asking kids questions I used to walk this prettiest girl Martha rose cart Tozi home that was the smartest girl and carry her books and just ask her things to try to get information so I
could pass. It befriended the two smartest boys who became a pulmonary specialist and a dentist. And that worked till I was 12 when I my parents moved from Houston, Texas to Richmond, Texas, and I was there. We lived in the country and 13 miles away from town I had to ride a bus to school, or drive a tractor to school or or hitchhike to school or ride a bicycle to school. And there there wasn't any smart kids. It was a low socio economic area that's a town of
about 9000 people. It wasn't a lot of smart, mainly nothing against farmers, but there just wasn't academics. And I ended up not doing so well didn't have anybody to help me. sort of tried being the class clown to get around it got beat up by a gang because I just didn't fit into the regular groups, a lot of prejudice there and then dropped out of school at 13 So I left school and home at 13 was a street kid and look have you on
the streets? And at 14 I hitchhiked to California, because I had picked up surfing. Because I had started living at the beach because it was living at the beach was easier and living on the street. Wow. And then I moved to California hitchhike to California lived out there. And then on that hitchhiking, I ran into Howard Hughes. And Howard Hughes told me, he saw me on the streets and he took me to a library told me
to learn how to read. And he said, there's only two things they can ever take away from you. And that is your love and wisdom gained the wisdom of love and the love of wisdom. My cufflinks which I don't have on today, but my cufflinks say love and wisdom on them, because I am. And then I made it over to hawaii 15. And from 15 to 18, I lived in Hawaii. And I was
riding big waves. But I was reading surf magazine, looking at the pictures looking at girlie magazines, and learning a few words like wow, we do women wind whipping and waves with the wind. And you know, I assumed I was gonna make surfboards. And I was totally eating tutelage under this guy named Dick Brewer, who is a great surfboard maker. And so I was, that's what my destiny i thought was going to be make surfboards live on the North Shore and write request. But almost died riding
a big wave one day. And in the recovery of that, I was led to a little health food store and then to a yoga class. And after yoga class, I met a woman named Paul C. Bragg, who was the guest speaker. And one night, one hour, one man with one message, change a direction trajectory, my life probably like Bob did for you. And that night, I saw a vision of me. In his meditation, I saw a vision of me standing on a balcony, 40 feet above a giant square with a million people in
it. And I was imagining myself speaking and making clear communication and influencing people. I have that picture. If you'd like me to pick it up, pull it out, I'll show you the actual picture. Because it was painted by a famous painter from Melbourne, Australia. That's incredible. If I can find that picture, because it's really, I get a tear in my eye every time I look at it. So it's more it's more important to me than anybody. But
here it is. There it is. So this is the picture that I envisioned. Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. I envision myself sitting on a balcony with a million people with an iconic building from every major city around the world. The painting is called a man on a mission with a vision and a message. Oh, I, myself standing at it like that. I just saw myself from it. Yeah. Oh, good. That's pretty much to go to every country in the face of the earth and learn and overcome
my learning problems. And someday be intelligent enough to be able to speak clearly and be able to try to make a difference in the world. So that was the dream that was 51 years and three weeks ago. And you have, yeah, you have just achieved that dream in every stretch of the imagination. And I know that in achieving that dream. In fulfilling that vision, you have become a student of almost everything, all of the ologies. And a lot of your work is very centred around Universal Law.
And so for people who are listening, who are maybe where you once were or where I was four years ago, where you're not quite where you want to be, you've got a vision and you've got this idea or maybe you don't yet, but you know, you're not exactly where you want to be you know that you're destined for more? What would you say in all of your years of research and study and this understanding of the universal law and the orderly nature of the universe?
What is the one learning or law that we would align ourselves to in order to change our reality? Well, every human being lives by a set of priorities, a set of values, things that are most at least important in them. And that hierarchy of values is fingerprint specific. There's no two people have the exact same
hierarchy of values. discovering what those values are and really getting clear on what's important and not clouding it with the injecting values of outside influences, brothers, fathers, preachers, teachers, conventions, traditions arise. But to actually look purely into your own being, the eyes and the heart of what's truly meaningful to you, truly inspiring to you, that you feel, this is what your calling is. And identifying it.
That's why on my website, Dr. demartini.com, I have a complimentary value determination process, to try to help people start there. I encourage every human being to go and take advantage of that. It's a little questionnaire and it's helped millions of people start, it's free, it's private, just take advantage of. But if a personal start there, if an individual starts there, and look at really what their life demonstrates, is truly meaningful and important to
them. Not with anything, it should be, or ought to be, or supposed to be, or gotta be, or have to be or need to be from some outside influence. But what exactly is really what their life is demonstrating already, if they're called to do and give themselves permission to pursue it, because that's where they're going to excel. Because money without meaning, leads to debauchery, but money with meaning leads to philanthropy.
And finding something you can't wait to get up in the morning and bring to the world and contribute to the world is extremely valuable. I've interacted with millions of people. And I can see those that are engaged in their life and those that aren't. And those that are living by duty, and those that are living by design. And I'm a believer that you can take command of your life and live by design, and give yourself permission to do
something extraordinary. And you will, because whatever's highest on your value spontaneously are inspired from within to act upon. But as you go down the list of values, you require extrinsic motivation to keep you motivated to do. So I have a high value on teaching and learning. Nobody has to remind me to do that. I do it every single day. I love it. But I don't have a value on cooking and driving. I haven't cooked since I was 24. I haven't driven
a car in 32 years. Anything that requires extrinsic motivation for me to do. I hire people to delegate it to other people who are inspired to do that. So I surround myself with people who are inspired to do what I want
to delegate. So I give myself permission to spend my time focusing on what I want to be great at, and what I can contribute most spontaneously, when you can't wait to get up in the morning and be of service to people, people can't wait to get your service and you have greater probability of excelling. Now there is a responsibility. Because it can't be some narcissistic, objective, it has to be some thing that is so deeply meaningful to you that they can contribute to people.
Because if you ask people what is it that really brings fulfilment to your life? It's the moment you did something that was deeply meaningful, that inspired you that made a difference in somebody's life. And they said, thank you and you did it with a sustainable fair exchange. You got remunerated for something meaningful, remunerated may not be always in finance, but in some sort of response back. When I get letters, which I get every single day from around the world
matters. I get tears in my eyes multiple times in the day for people who, because of what I do, what I love, is somehow helps them do what they love. And there's a chain reaction and a lot of gratitude gets dispersed. So that to me is the ultimate fulfilment is doing something you can't wait to get up in the morning and do that you love doing it spontaneously inspired, you know, Warren Buffett, you know, he's in his late 90s. Now in the mid 90s. He can't wait to do what he's loved
to do. He's been doing it since the seventh and 90 years, almost. So finding that out, you get to tap dance to work. And people say, Well, I don't like to work I want to retire thing of work is meaningful if you're doing something you love doing. Charlie Munger just died just a few days ago. And he was doing interviews right before he died. He was busy. And I would love to be able to on my 100th birthday, be doing a seminar, or however long I'm to live, you know, I'd love to be able to do what I
love doing. So finding that out in identifying your values, giving yourself permission to pursue it. Ask yourself, what is it I really absolutely love to do in life? How can I really get handsome and beautifully paid to do it? So my vocation vacation have the same? What are the highest priority actions I can do today to make that happen? And moving in the direction of that manifestation and
fulfilment? What obstacles might I run into and how do I solve them in advance so I can live in foresight and at hindsight, what worked and what didn't? or today? How do I do it more effectively and efficiently tomorrow? And how to no matter what happened to me today? How is it helping me fulfil that. So you learn to see that everything's on the way and it's feedback. There is no success or failure or delusions. They're simply feedback to help you find fulfil what is truly most
meaningful. That's why man on a mission, I'm not interested in being successful or a failure. I don't live in those languages. I'm a man on a mission doing what I feel like I'm called to do. And I really believe that that liberates people from a lot of the vicissitudes and distractions that occupy space and time in most people's mind, and distract him from building momentum incrementally, in a way that Trump's style.
That is, there's so much there to unpack, and I'm wondering, listening from the perspective of someone who's going, Okay, I do know what I love and value and I want to I want to do art, I want to give my art to the world. This is an example I've actually got a client in a similar position, I want to do art, I've always wanted to do art, it's my highest value. It's what I, you know, spontaneously
will just do. But I need money, I've got to go to my job, I have to, you know, blob, and all of these things come up, or the other. The other sort of common thing that I see or hear is, I know that I should value my health, for example, I really want to be someone that puts my health first I know how important it is. But my external reality, my behaviours, my actions, they're not aligning, and how do I sort of make a change when my values and my actions or my reality it just not lining up?
Well, your values and your actions line up. But the assumption of what your values are aren't? Oh, yes. I mean, I've been doing value evaluations for 45 years of teaching for 51. And I'm certain about that statement. A lot of people think that they're sabotaging and they're not being disciplined. And no, they're not. They just don't know what they really value. They're, they're claiming something's important. Let me give you an example. Yeah. I was speaking in
South Africa, in 2013 2012. And there's about 5000 people in the audience. And I'm the opening speaker of a series of six speakers for the day. And I get up, and it was on success and wealth building for the entrepreneurs Success Summit. And so I said, How many of you would love to be financially independent? I just asked that question. And every hand went up. Some people put two hands up, some people put their legs.
I said, fantastic. I said, How many of you are financial independent, where your passive income is now exceeding your active income, and you're working only because you love to not because you have to? Only seven hands were left up. So that meant 5000 people. less than point 1%. Actually, we're living that. So what people say they want, is not what their life demonstrates. So I don't go by what people say, I wait, it's a waste of time. I go by with their lift, life demonstrates.
That's why I asked people to go and do the value determination. Because it's a real eye opener, because it basically helps you determine what your life is demonstrating what your fantasy is. So when I asked him this, I said, in an interesting that 100% of you had your hands up. But only seven people in this room, kept them hands up. And I asked that question. And I would you like to know why. So few people do that. And everybody's quiet. I said, the herd give your values dictates your
financial destiny. And if you don't have a value in the wealth building, you won't. Because money circulates in the economy for those who value at least to those who value it most. I said, So let's find out about what you really value. I'm gonna give you $10 million. Oh, everybody's excited. I'm going to hand you $10 million. And you have 60 seconds to decide what you're going to do with that $10 million. And you're going to write the 10 things you're going
to do with all $10 million. You got 10 options to do with it. What are you going to do with that $10 million On your mark, get set, go. And I gave him 60 seconds to write as fast as he could exactly what they would do that $2 million. When they finished at a minute. I said turn into the person on your left. Now calculate how much of that $10 million is still an asset. It's investable. And we took a survey of the room 20 to
80%. have that $10 million was spent on immediate gratifying consumables that depreciate in value, within 60 seconds, they bought that car, they bought those clothes, they bought that trip, they bought that fish, they bought that little, you know, they bought everything that would go down in value that would not put money back into their pocket and grow. So what they're really saying is, I want the lifestyles of the rich and famous, I don't want to become financially independent. And
they compare us to the rich. And they envy those people and try to imitate those people. And they want to consume like those people, which has immediate gratification and a compensation for unfulfilled highest values. But they don't want to actually defer gratification, and make sure that to take a portion of their income and buy assets to keep growing so it starts working for them so they can become the master not the slave
of money. So what people say they want is not yet now you made a statement in that anecdotal statement there. Oh, I know I should. Anytime you hear yourself saying I've got to, I have to, I must. I need to, I should I ought to, I suppose to. It's not you're speaking inside you. It's injected value from an outer authority that you're envying, and you're trying to imitate. Ralph Waldo Emerson said, envy is ignorance and imitation is suicide. You're trying to be sacred being
somebody else. Anytime you try to live in somebody else's values and not your own. You'll end up believing that you're sabotaging you'll self depreciate, you'll beat yourself up, you'll wonder why you're not doing it. Why am I not discipline? Why do I keep making mistakes. And you'll label yourself a failure because you're comparing your own actions to somebody else's
values, not your own. Once you know what your values are, your decisions are actually based on your values, but you're comparing it to what you think it should be. And what you fantasise it being instead of what it is. So that's why I say start with a value determination on a website. It's free. It's eye opening, and then do it again a week from now a month from now. And so you'll answer those answers as honestly as you can, because you don't even when most people don't even face the
truth about their nature. I've been doing value determination, 45 years, and I've done it on millions of people. Very few people have the courage to be honest about their, what's important to them. Very few. Yeah, but they're on they, they can start to set a goal that they'll actually live by. No integrity occurs when you try to live in
other people's values. And he tried, he tried to live in somebody else's values that you envy and inject the values of your cloud, the clarity of your own purpose, you'll confuse yourself and who you are, you'll become a follower and not wake up to your natural born leadership. They'll automatically distract yourself with all those I should. And you won't get on with doing something deeply meaningful and inspiring. And you'll question your own potential, which is what most people are trapped in.
And I wonder from that, because I know and I've read, I've read that you've said, priorities and values has much to do with what we perceive is missing. And so if we're being honest with ourselves, and if we really are looking at what our actions demonstrate, would it be then common, that a lot of people actually value things that come from a wounded place, or come from a place of needing to be significant wanting to be
popular? All of these things, which I can only imagine leads to behaviours, like, like you said, sabotage and addiction and all of these things. So therefore, would the the idea be to heal ourselves in order to re evaluate our values? Well, the hierarchy of your values dictate your destiny dictates what you perceive, decide an act. And the hierarchy of your values is based on every judgement you've had from the
time you were conceived. And even epigenetically, multi generationally, there's others impulses and instincts that are inside you. Oh, yes. All of those voids that drive the value are all the things you've been too proud or too humble to admit that you have that you see in others. So if you infatuate with somebody, and you look up to them, and you think, oh my god, they have this and they're that and this that. And then you don't think you're too humble to
admit you have it. You're going to envy them trying to imitate him and check your values and try to be somebody or not. And then you're going to end up getting the normal healthy feedback for that. Because anytime you try to be inauthentic, you're going to get feedback of question and doubt and uncertainty to try to let you know you're going in a path that's not authentic. It's not a weakness. It's not a flaw. It's
not sabotage. It's a normal, healthy biological response to make sure you're going after what's true. Mm hmm. That is incredible. And this is where I think it starts to bring in this conversation around dualism and polarity. Because I think a lot of us as humans, we look at this person is that which means I am not that, or I'm not that and this person is that and we create these
dualisms. And these polls, which is again, such a huge part of your body of work, and I absolutely love the way you bring a conversation to this. So, in within that space, how important is it that we understand? polarities? How and how important is it that we can neutralise this way of thinking, so that we can begin to see truth and the way the world is without our perceptions of things in ourselves?
So I want everybody to imagine whoever's listening, is there three beakers of water sitting in front of a little bowls of water, or beakers or bowls, right, just little balls, ones at 40 degrees Fahrenheit. So I don't know what that isn't centigrade, but four degrees. So it's cold ones, it's 72 degrees, it's tepid and room temperature, and ones that 140 degrees are taught. And they're three bowls. And they each have a thermos
thermometer in it. And the thermometer tells you exactly objectively at the temperature. So these are the exact temperatures measured by our measurement process. Now if we put our hand in the colon, we're gonna probably register Yeah, that's about 40 degrees, we'll be pretty close to it, we take it out, let it go back to room temperature, put it in the room temperature, and we'll probably registered about 72 degrees,
probably be accurate. Take it out, go back to room temperature, it's already there, then put it in hot one. If we can keep it in there, we're probably gonna Whoo, that scalding That's 140 degrees. And we'll guess within a small margin of error, well guess what those temperatures are. And that's because we're not doing any comparison, we're just being
one at a time. But if you go put your hand into the cold beaker, and take it immediately out and stick it into the tepid beaker, you're going to swear that it's 90 degrees, not 72. Because now you're doing a comparison, immediate comparison between something cold to something that's normal, and you will exaggerate it thinking it's hotter than it actually is. And that subjective bias will distort your reality and react
to something that's not real. If you put it down on 40 degrees, and then stick it back in that 72 degrees, you're going to swear that it's 50 degrees. And again, you're gonna react it's cold, because you go by comparison, it's called the law of contrast. And it was developed by a gentleman Wilhelm want around 130 years ago, who was the father of experimental psychology. Now, the second we are by ourselves, and there's no other human being on the planet, and we do an act, we don't judge
yourself. We just do the act, if we if it doesn't get us a result, we refine the act, but there's not a lot of judgement about it. But the second we compare ourselves and put somebody in a pedestal, which has a higher temperature, and then do our X. relative to that comparison, we're going to think it's less than it was and we're going to devalue ourselves. And if we put somebody down and put them in a pit, and resent somebody, we're going to exaggerate ourselves, and we're
going to give ourself pride. So anybody we look down on makes us exaggerate ourselves because we're exaggerating how minimise they are. We're minimising them exaggerating us. Anytime we exaggerate them, we'll minimise ourselves. But anytime we love somebody, and have equanimity within ourselves, and equity between ourselves and others, and there's no judgement, there's just an honouring objectively who they are. The divine in me honours the divine
in them. Namaste. The moment we do, we are able to know ourselves because we know them. Why as we exaggerate or minimise somebody else, we have the impostor syndrome because we are going to exaggerate or minimise ourselves instead of yourself. When we are self. We set real goals that have real objectives with foresight. When we don't, we set unrealistic expectation, we puff ourselves that we too set too big a goal and to shorter timeframe to humble us to get us back down to
authenticity. And if we're minimise us, so we said to smaller goals too long a time to lift us to get us back to authenticity. Every event in our life has a feedback system towards authenticity. If we don't know how to interpret things, we're going to think, oh, it should be this way. We're going to make a mistake. And then we're comparing ourselves. We're not here to compare ourselves to others and put people on pedestals or pips. We're not here to be second to
being somebody else. We're here to compare our daily actions to what is truly most meaningful to us. And see if we can't refine our daily skills, and go and do what we're called to do. And then delegate the things to people who are called to do that. So we're encouraging the economy and developing an economic development for everybody to do something they love to do. And if we help other people get what they want to get live, it helps us get what we want to get much.
And it does feel like a large part of that is really like the ability to neutralise and to hold something completely objectively. Right? So my question with that sometimes becomes, how does that then work practically, for example, I would say, I've always seen for me, I'm someone who, and I think this is true for a lot of humans away from pain, like I am away from pain, and that to me, and I know, now I've read your book.
I'm like, I know this is just brilliant, what might follow this, but if you're motivated, away from pain, and there's particular emotions that sort of drive you and bring out what I have always deemed as, for example, I love working under pressure. I love it a time limit. I used to be a journalist before that I was a teacher. I love time limits. And so pressure for me is this like positive emotion that I tend to love and I feel like I get really great results from it.
But as I've been doing a lot of shadow work, I realised I'm really on this path of neutralising things, not saying any emotion is good or bad, trying to really, you know, neutralise my reactions to things neutralise the reality, as I see it. But what that has brought up and my question is, where does or what would you say is the difference between neutral and apathetic? I've been asked that question a long time, so I'd be glad to
answer them. First of all, if you're infatuated with somebody and put them on a pedestal, you're going to feel their loss. If you put them in a pit and resent him, you're gonna fear their game. So you'll be philic to that which you infatuate with and phobic to lose it, there'll be phobic to that which you resent and fill it to lose it.
So as long as you polarise your perceptions, and infatuated or resent, and seek and avoid with impulses and instinct from the amygdala, the centre that wants to avoid predators and seek prey, you're going to have the fear of loss of game. And you're going to have low resilience. And you're gonna have autonomic dysregulation syndrome. And the result of that. If you're completely neutral, and you're not infatuated with them, nor resentful to them, then you don't fear their late loss or
gain. You allow them to freedom to be every human being wants to have the want to be loved for who they are, regardless of what they do, where they go, what they want freedom. But that won't happen as long as you're not living in your highest values. Because when you're not fulfilling what's deeply meaningful to you, you're unfulfilled. And as the unfulfillment occurs, it brings the blood glucose and oxygen into the lower brains, subcortical II or the brain, which is the amygdala and the
hippocampus. And it makes you seek immediate gratification and pleasure and avoid pain. So anytime we're not doing high priority things, we're automatically going to get the symptoms of seeking that which is unobtainable, and avoiding that which is unavoidable as a frustration feedback system to get us back onto priority. Now,
we're back on the priority. And we're more objective because of blood glucose and oxygen goes into the forebrain, the medial frontal cortex, and allows us to have objective now one of the signs we're pursuing something that's truly important priority and meaningful is that we're willing to embrace pain and pleasure in the pursuit of it. And then we're pursuing challenges and pains and problems that inspire us. We innovate, create wake up are genius and create original
thinking. It's the challenge. If we're not pursuing challenge that inspires, it's our day is gonna fill up with challenge that don't. And challenge the don't lead to distress challenge that do need to use stress. And use stress, like our media says, is innovative, creative. And solving is the most fulfilment we have. So that's why why is individuals don't shrink from challenges. They look for challenges in the world and
problems in the world. They with their skills, and highest values can solve and then they dedicate your life to solving global problems. Those are the people that leave marks in the world. And so it's not a case of apathy. It's a case of in fact, and this brings up I have a little bit of an issue To be honest, and one of the things that makes me quite passionate, and that I think is a calling and something that I'll be working on for my whole life, I believe the education system is
failing. I was a teacher for a long time, I don't believe the education system is really instilling all of these lessons and learnings and etc, etc. And one of the things I noticed inside the education system too, and society as a whole, is I want to say we're lowering out
resilience. And every single human is getting a participation badge, whether it's you know, you can't lose, Everyone's a winner, etc, etc, which to me feels like we're actually lowering our tolerance, to challenge and to obstacles and to what is hard, which means we will never be able to achieve the opposite of that the pole of that, because we're avoiding disappointment and failure and all of these things. Would you? Have you noticed this? Or is this something that you sort of
see as well? And what would be, how would we move around? This, I guess you've just answered is that we start to love the challenge, the immediate gratification movement, the quick fix movement, costs, cost greatness. Now, I didn't answer yet the path of peace. Let me tie the empathy in. When you're in your amygdala, and you want to pleasure without pain, you think positive thinking without negative thinking, you want to go one without the other, which
is futile. Now, whenever you go after a one sided event like that, you now set up a fantasy about how am I supposed to be and try to avoid a nightmare, but how you wish you would never be. Now if you find out that life is balanced, that has pairs of opposites. Then you go, Well, I can't get what I want. I want a one sided world. And so why bother? So apathy is the leftover addiction to a fantasy of one sidedness in a world that
demands both sides. Now, let's imagine so imagine you're getting prey without a predator. You're an animal, there's prey for food, but there's no predator. Now, what happens is you have food without challenge. you overeat, you get gluttonous, you get fat, you lose fitness. And if you get the predator without the prey, you get emaciated, starved and lose
fitness. But if you put the prey and the Predator, the support and the challenge, the ease and the difficulty, the parasympathetic and the sympathetic together, you get maximum growth and development. So right now we're the movement in many areas of life with a false so called positive psychology that you're supposed to get one sidedness, nice without being kind without cruel, positive, that negative.
And that destroys people. And that why because it gives them a false reality, but how are they supposed to be and then when life hits some of the other side, they're unprepared. So monopole or addiction is what leads to bipolar condition. So I tell people, if I walk up to someone, and I said, let's say I'm single, and let's say you're single, and I meet you, and I say, Well, I like you. And you're always positive. You're never negative. You're always kind. You're never cruel. You're
always nice. Never mean you're always giving never taken noise generous, never enjoys concert, everything's always peaceful. Never enough always positive or negative. Would you believe me? And you'll say? No, exactly. And you'll immediately think it other times, and you've been really, really, really opposite. And so you would not have certainly that you're one side, you can never have certainly one side, just because your own intuition would whisper the
sides that are the opposite. If I said you're always mean you're never crew kind you're always cool. You never con you're always negative in repositories run from the repeat for origin concern never gets I always get stingy, never generous, always taking ever getting. immediately if I said that about you get me to think of the times you're nice and giving and generous. And you would never have certainly that that was true. But if I went up to you, and I said, sometimes you're nice.
Sometimes you mean sometimes you can sometimes be cruel, sometimes you're positive, sometimes negative. Sometimes you're generous, sometimes you're stingy. You really don't That's true. I know that. Because you have homeostatic interoceptive intuitive system inside you that knows that. Now, so if I was to go out and try to get in a relationship and expect more positive than negative, more nice the mean to live in by values, not their own. I have a delusion and I'm going to be
angry and feel betrayed. And I'm gonna be having anger and aggression, blame and betrayal, criticism and challenge despair and depression. It's a third exit and escape futility and futility and frustration, and cetera, et cetera. Being in a relationship with you because I'm setting myself up with a false and unrealistic expectation. I'm not prepared for reality. Do that on a goal are an objective, you don't really have a goal object, you have a fantasy. And a fantasy
results in a nightmare. A true objective has both sides, I'm willing to be in this relationship, long term, not for me to gratification, not for just pleasure without pain. I know it's good to have pleasure and pain and tiny and cruel and nice and being, because I cannot guarantee that I'm always going to be supporting her, I may be challenging at times, I'm going to have both they're gonna have both. If I do, and I have that as a goal, I can sustain the relationship long term because I
have a realistic expectation. I have a true objective, not a fantasy, but to have their to come to me. Now, if you set a goal, a true objective, and you are willing to embrace the pains and pleasures, in the end, you mitigate the risks with your executive centre and plan out a strategy to help you accomplish it. And know full well, there's gonna be pains along the way, then you're ready for life, you're ready for a real goal and achievement and you won't stop on it, you'll pursue it and
persevere on it. But the second you try to go and do a one sided thing, and it doesn't turn out that way. So that's why fantasies are the number one thing that leads to self doubt, insecurities, fears, anxieties in the pursuit of goals, because they're not really goals and fantasies. So real goal is something congruent and aligned with your highest value, where you're more objective, and you're willing to mitigate the risks of all the things and challenges that come with it.
And you're willing to embrace those equally to the pleasures. And they're going to come because so many people asked you how many 100 gold when you thought when you going after it, it's gonna be a lot easier, and you thought, oh, this will be good. And then you know, by the time I get to oh my god, if I know when I was going through, I didn't realise there's always two sides to it. It's all objectives, everything you're gonna have is gonna have a pair
of opposites with it. And integrating, it was with unwanted said, when you can see both of those sides simultaneously, equally. Now you have a true objective, and you're prepared for what's going to come when Elon Musk goes to Mars, and we're working on things. A lot of people who saw that second launch, thought, Oh, my God, it blew up again, they were celebrating at SpaceX, because they knew they were
going to have blow ups. And they knew that every time that they do, they learn what not what's not working, and they'd rather do it while it's on the earth, and they try to do the long run. And they want to make sure they get all those kinks worked out. And they're embracing the pains and pleasures of the pursuit. And they'll make it to their objective tomorrow if they do
that. But if they if they saw it as success, if it doesn't, and failure if it does blow up, then they're going to end up having a false construct and fantasy. A man on a mission or a woman on a mission is more powerful than a person that's pursuing immediate gratifying labels called success. Oh, this is incredible. And I can just see how this instantly and when you when you can hold both that is going to naturally lead to the the need and the necessity for increasing our levels of emotional
intelligence. Can you please explain in your language and in your definition? What is emotional intelligence? Emotions are polarised perceptions. So if you infatuate with somebody, you're conscious of the upsides unconscious of the downsides, blinded and ignorant of the downsides. And eventually that fatal attraction as Michael Douglas found out was
not what you thought. And then when you're resentful, you're conscious of the downsides unconscious, the upsides and you're gonna have another emotion, called avoidance emotions is putting you in motion seeking or avoiding your cerebellum and your brain is coordinating the emotions and comparing your sensory reality to an expectation in your brain. And if they're matching your present, if not, you're you feel
joy or sorrow. Because if it exceeds your expectation, your joy if it's it doesn't you get sorry. So infatuation present and joy and sorrow are emotions that are polarised things but they're polarised emotions. Now, as long as you have those, you're going to feel the loss of that which you seek, and you're going to feel the gain of that what you're trying to avoid, and you're going to have polarities. As a result of that you're going to have non resilience.
Resilience is the ability to be neutral and untouched by the polarities that occupies space and time your mind if you infatuate with somebody it occupies space and time your mind around you. We've all had an a highly infatuation tried to sleep at night, couldn't sleep. We've all had a big resentment couldn't sleep at night, because it's intrusive, and it encompasses our brain and runs our brain and its extremes it
can it runs us. The moment we balance our perception and the quality of our lives based on the quality of the questions we ask. If we ask questions that bring us to the awareness to both sides simultaneously and see both sides simultaneous Originally, and neutralise the experience, we have now neutrality, we have resilience and adaptability, we don't have distress, we're not intrusive
thoughts were present. And in that present, we clearly and we have the most objective capacities to solve problems. We're not in pulses and instincts. And so that place is the ability to ask the question, to see the other side. So if I'm infatuated, my wisdom would be asking, so one of the downsides, so I'm not blind. And how many? How many times have you met a guy in your life somewhere in your life, and you thought, this
is looking good. But in the back of your mind, your intuition, your interoceptive response is going too good to be true. Keep your eyes open, Toby gonna watch out, keep her eyes open. It's whispering. And then when you have this terrible event occur, your intuition is whispering and saying, There must be a purpose of it. Let's find out the meaning of this. There's, there's, I know I'm getting this
for a reason. So it's trying to tell you the upsides to what you think is down is trying to tell you the downside to what you think is up is trying to get you centred. Your intuition is a homeostatic feedback system, a negative feedback system trying to guide you to see both sides simultaneously. Because in that state, you're not judging and you're authentic. And so it's maximising your authenticity, with your intuition to try to guide you back to the most
powerful you. But we get caught in the injected values, the the morals and ethics of hypocrisy that we get about how we're supposed to be and how people are supposed to be, which skews us and sets us for unrealistic expectations. The truth has never been in the hands of the masters. It's only in the hearts of the masters. The Masters are constantly trying to avoid pain and seek pleasure. The Masters are willing to embrace pain and pleasure in the pursuit of a great purpose.
And so we're really trying to get to a place of non judgement, is that correct? We're not going to get there, we're going to have moments of it. Because the moment you see in a study of epistemology and knowledge, when you infatuate with somebody, you don't really know them. You're infatuated, you're ignorant of the downsides. So you don't have full knowledge. When you're resentful. You're ignorant of the upside, you don't have full
knowledge. So anything you have an emotion about you don't know, you have an opinion about, but you don't know. You have a subjective biassed opinion about but you don't know you're blind, you're ignorant. The second you see both sides simultaneously, you'll feel grace and love. So when you love somebody, and you have the wisdom to see both sides simultaneously, you know them. That's why this proposers, knowledge, epistemology, inside of philosophy, the love of wisdom, the wisdom of love,
we're joined together. So true knowledge. Whatever we love, we have true knowledge about we see it objectively we poised, we have no desire to change them relative to us, we have no desire to change us rather to them. There's no desire to desire to change anything, we see the hidden order and the apparent chaos, we see the magnificence of perfection and what's happening. And we're graced, and we're poised and
quiet, and no brain noise. And we're not distracted by impulse and instinct we're present in that state, we then get promoted to our next illusion. Because no matter how much we know, whatever is outside of what we know, which is infinitude. It's vastly more than what we know, what we know is an infinitesimal. What we don't
know is an infinity. That's why sorry, sir, the wisest individual has times because he realised how much he didn't know, the moment you realise you go into the next mystery, you now judge again. And that judgement is a mechanism to let us know what we haven't loved yet. And give the us another opportunity to discover and ask questions wisely to see both sides simultaneously to love it again, and to love further. So there's no end to our judgments.
And there's no end to the potential of things we can love. All right. It's just fascinating. It's so fascinating. And I do wonder, on this, I can see how your studies have led you in the exact sort of order that it's gone because it's one thing leads to another and to another and when we're seeking to find neutrality, and find this place where both poles can exist at once to be in love.
What I wonder must come up and I know for myself, what can often get in the way is our ego or the the shame attached to what we might see about ourselves. You know, oh, no, no, no, no, I'm never mean I'm never greedy. I'm not greedy. I'm not this. I'm not that. So for anyone who's sort of listening and he's going to go on this whole journey of let's see, let's see ourselves for how we really are the good, the bad, the in between and all
of those things. How important is it to be a Due to dissolve, shame as it occurs, and how important has that been in your journey or what you've witnessed in the millions of people that you've helped to transform? There's an inseparability between pride and shame. And there's a licencing effect called the moral licencing effect. The second we go into pride, we're unconsciously
generating shame. Hmm, anybody who's gone out and done exercise, and really put a lot of effort into an exercise where they felt proud that they did it felt really good, you got a good workout. Yeah, I'm proud of it. Look at my button. Now look at my apps now, automate, automatically, unconsciously, give yourself permission to eat more chocolate, drink more wine and over eat that night. And then because of the guilt, you then give yourself permission to go out workout the next day, and
you create a yo yo. And this is a moral licencing effect. And now these are actually simultaneous, but we don't see them immediately because of our blindness. And so we go through these gyrations of guilt and pride and guilt and pride. So our addiction to pride, which is an amygdala response, our addiction to be right, and addiction to pride keeps the yo yo of shame in our interface. So because we're not here to get one or the other, we're here to use both of those as feedback
mechanisms. When we're proud, we're blind to our downside. When we're shamed. We're blind to our upsides. When we're being truthful to ourselves, we're honouring both sides simultaneously. Think about people who have been married for 50 6070 years, I've met people, my grandparents made it 80 years marriage. Wow. Magic, imagine eight years. Now, if you were to ask them, would you agree that your spouse has things you'd like or dislike? And they'll go,
of course? And could you list them off, of course, they can immediately list off both sides, both positive negative things I like and dislike, and that's why they love them. But if you meet somebody the first week, and you list and tell me all the pros and cons and the cons equal the pros, you go, no, no, these are, there's more advantages and disadvantages in this
relationship. So you can have the wisdom, the ages, with the ageing process by being a slow learner, or you can have the wisdom the agents without it by being wise. So I instead of waiting for me to learn through trial and error, which is the lowest turistic way of making decisions and solve problems. I went ahead and went to the Oxford Dictionary, the largest dictionary that I was able to find the English Oxford
dictionary. And in that dictionary, I went through every single page and underlined every single potential behavioural description, nice mankind coup considered and considered honest, dishonest, forthright, withdrawn, whatever, you know, considered includes everything. I came to 4628 traits I counted.
them, what I did is on the outside of that page, right in the margin, small margin, I wrote down the initial enough to know what that initial men of the individual that I have met, that I identify with that behaviour the most. So who in my life, when I think about behaviour, who do I think of it
displays it most? I wrote their initial they know what inside myself and I asked John, go to a moment when when you perceive yourself displaying or demonstrating the same specific trade action or inaction, same behaviour that I perceive them displaying? And where was it, when was it who died, demonstrate it and who perceived me doing it. And then go the next moment, and the next moment where when, who who go the next
moment where when who. And I would do that until I can identify where I've demonstrated those traits 100% to the same degree quantitatively. And qualitative is what I saw it and the people I imagined being the most, that trait. When I identified that I owned all those traits, I realised my buttons that people can push are gone. See, the only reason people can push a button with a hook that makes you attract or hooked to make sure repel, is to
own the trade. It was in Romans two, one in a biblical New Testament writing that said, Beware of judging because whenever you judge, you do the same thing. And I found to be an absolute principle. And I've taken a lot of people through hundreds of 1000s of people that exercise and they found the same discovery. At first as well. I will never do that I pride myself on never doing that. But that's because they're blind to
their own nature. Like the person thinks they're supposed to be financially independent. They're blind. The moment they actually come to the truth that they have every trait I had every trait I went through 4006 20 traits, I had them all, every single found the dictionary, nothing was missing in me. And so no matter what anybody says about me it's true and a different context may not be in their context, but it's I
have it. I'm now used to mean unkind and cruel and honest and dishonest and playful and serious and all the above. Once I do that, then I don't get my buttons pushed by people, I realise they have it, I have it. And if I don't see it in them, it's my illusion. If I don't see it me, it's my illusion. If I want to live in illusion and let the world run me, and people's
reactions ruin me, great. But if I am wise, I will take an audit all know they have it all done, put a label that it's false and imbalanced and be caught in the idea that they're a hero or a villain, or a saint or a sinner and label them with names like narcissism or how to do something. But understand that they're an individual and human being with a set of values that
are unique. When you communicate in those values are nice as a pussycat when you go against their values, their meanings, the tiger, and understand that they have all the traits and they'll display all those traits. You want to learn to love all those traits. Now you can love somebody and yourself.
I think you've just answered that question of it's not, it doesn't create apathy, it creates room for love is apathy a feedback mechanism to help you break through to a fantasy about how people are supposed to be there is there is a definite rhetoric in the space around when you are emotionally intelligent, or when you are able to neutralise things and manage your emotions, what you are doing is bypassing what you are doing is unhealthy is toxic.
And I find that those those individuals believe you're supposed to be tonique. Without toxic positive, that negative kind without cruel. And that's their lesson to be learned. Hmm, it's incredible. It's so incredible. I love this conversation so much. And I know listeners will absolutely love it and find so much value in definitely doing the values. I'll put everything the links in the show notes. Guys, I did it last night. And it's phenomenal.
It's eye opening. And I've been doing this work for years, and you still find something new. So please go and do it. And if anyone wants to reach out to you find themselves immersed in your work as I have anything else exciting coming out? And where can people find you? Well, they can go to Dr. demartini.com. Yeah, that's my website. They can spend the rest of their life there because there's so much on there.
There's there's 1000s and 1000s of articles and media and podcasts and YouTubes and you name it. But so please take advantage of that. Because it's there, if it's an education, they can also go and then we got a new book out called the essentials of emotional intelligence. And emotional intelligence is simply the ability to self govern your behaviour from your executive function, and not live as an animal in your regular living with a mission, not just a
passion. Most people think they want a passion, but passion means to suffer. They don't realise that the etymology passion means to suffer. Compassion means to suffer with somebody, I don't promote things like that. It's childish. I'm interested in helping people mastering their life. And so then go the website, take advantage of that. They can get the book that's coming out here in February, or any of the other books, we got lots of books out. And we have a new movie coming
out. It's going to the film festivals, this January 1, and but the movie will be out in May. And it's called the breaks in it. And I know that people will be opened by it. Absolutely as have I just cannot thank you enough for everything that you've put your wisdom into and what you will continue to do, I'm sure for another long, long, long, long time, like your grandparents, they sound like they had a good innings and I can see that for you too. And I look forward to everything that
you continue to do. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on your show. Thank you for this time. Thank you