¶ Introduction to Mind-Body Connection
Welcome to the MindBodyCouple podcast .
I'm Tanner Murtaugh and I'm Anne Hampson . This podcast is dedicated to helping you unlearn chronic pain and symptoms .
If you need support with your healing , you can book in for a consultation with one of our therapists at painpsychotherapyca or purchase our online course at embodycommunitycom to access in-depth education , somatic practices , recovery tools and an interactive community focused on healing . Links in the description of each episode .
Hi everybody , welcome back to the podcast .
Hi everyone . Today we are talking about healing depression when living with chronic pain and illness .
Yeah , and we know this sounds like a heavy topic one because it is , but we think it's necessary to talk about .
Yes , because often people are stuck in this loop . They're stuck in this loop of chronic pain and symptoms making them feel depressed , which makes sense , and then depression making their symptoms worse .
Yeah , and at this point , right now , I really want to validate that loop because it completely makes sense , when we're living with pain and symptoms , to feel depressed .
Yes , and understanding that these things feed each other .
Yeah .
It's really key because even in my healing I had physical treatments and then I had mental health treatments , but the two worlds were never meshed .
Yeah , that's right . Like they weren't really meshed for you , were they ?
No , and it's so key because understanding the connection and understanding that by treating depression and understanding this mind-body connection we can heal both together , that this is possible , and in our one-on-one therapy , in our agency , in our digital course , we've helped so many people overcome chronic depression and chronic symptoms together .
Yeah , and so I think that first step then , tanner , is what you're saying is we need to understand how they are linked and how they connect to each other , and it's not one or the other .
Yes , and today we're going to break down talking to real strategies that can help you and really remind you that , even on these hardest days that you're facing with depressive symptoms , that you're not alone and you're not without options , that there is hope in healing this . And that's really what we want to outline today to get you started .
Yeah , for sure it is .
And , like you were just saying , Anne , it's first understanding the symptom depression loop that it's real and it's brutal it's helpful we talk
¶ Understanding the Depression-Pain Loop
about in our approach . It's helpful to understand that depression is a nervous system state . Depression occurs when we move towards this freeze or shutdown response in our nervous system and for a lot of people , like we've said , if you've had chronic symptoms for a long time , it makes sense that you're shutting down to survive .
Now , really quickly , what this can look like , it does vary person to person . There is nuance to this . It looks a little bit different with each individual . But when we talk about this freeze or shutdown response , the physical experience can be this exhaustion , this low energy that people feel . We often get like heavy sensations , low muscle tone , numbness .
For a lot of people I know that we work with , they almost have poor immune function , so they're often getting sick . And of course , this physical experience can include chronic pain , chronic symptoms and often chronic fatigue .
Well and that's interesting that you make those in the list of physical symptoms that could be connected to depression , because I think a lot of listeners out here might relate to those but not identify that they're depressed . So again reflecting oh am I depressed ? Is there something going on there ? Brings to that awareness of it too .
You're right , because the first step is , like you need that awareness . Yeah , now the mental experience . This is lacking motivation or interest , dissociation . At a more extreme end , feeling like low mood , depression , feeling like low mood depression , numbness , loneliness , hopelessness and helplessness .
And , lastly , the behavioral experience that you want to look out for can be this lack of movement , lack of purposeful action , social disconnection and withdrawal . Like you see , the people almost withdraw into distraction . They just start to avoid their world and , at a really extreme end , this can almost look like lack of responsiveness for a lot of people .
And so , like Anne was saying , just having that awareness , am I meeting some of these criteria for this depressive state or the freeze or shutdown response
¶ Depression as a Nervous System State
? Because , if you are , we need to start to work at that , we need to start to shift that .
And it doesn't mean , like , the typical mind-body healing approach isn't useful and doesn't work . It just means also having this lens of like okay , I am in this free shutdown or I am depressed as well , and I need to take care of that and nurture myself there too .
Yeah , and chronic pain . It's so vital that people understand and this is like one of the key messages we are sharing on our podcast Chronic pain and symptoms is not just a physical experience , it's an emotional experience , and we talk about depression .
This is a sign your nervous system is dysregulated , meaning this sense of danger , this heightened sense of danger , is causing you to feel depressed and this is going to , over time , sensitize your system and produce pain and physical symptoms .
So that brings us to the sensitization cycle .
Yes , they feed back . There's a feedback between pain , physical symptoms and dysregulation , negative thoughts and beliefs , negative behaviors . Depression fits right in there .
Yeah , and , if you like , kind of what we're saying about the sensitization cycle . We talk a lot about that in our course .
Yes , we really do , and it's so key to understand when we talk about this sensitization cycle , to understand that your pain and symptoms are not just in your head , it is in your nervous system . Neuroplastic pain and symptoms are very real .
What it means is that your body is not damaged or diseased in any way , and what's occurring is this heightened sense of danger is triggering your symptoms over time , and when people are feeling depressed , that's a sign that your nervous system has just been in this heightened state of danger for too long , and that's a great place to validate the fact that , okay ,
I do maybe identify or relate with feeling depressed and I have pain and symptoms .
But that really good reminder , tanner , that just because I feel depressed and I know it's connected to my symptoms doesn't again mean my symptoms are all in my head .
And I want people to know . I think it is so key that you are not weak for feeling depressed or for having chronic symptoms . You're human . This is a natural human response when that level of danger has been too high .
Personally , when I had widespread , debilitating chronic pain which I use this approach to fully heal , there were points at the end of my journey where I was deeply depressed in this shutdown response and you know and witnessed me in that where I was near unresponsive by the end .
I was dissociative , I was not leaving our apartments , I was just completely isolated and lost in trying to heal my pain , not seeing there was a connection between the two of depression and chronic pain , and so I really want to empathize with people that I know how hard it is to work through that , but I also want to give this message of hope that working
through that is possible .
What allowed you to start working through that , Tanner , to get to that point ?
You know , I think the starting place is everything we've covered so far in understanding the connection Because , like I said , I was getting physical treatments and I kind of had this belief of like , okay , if I can get my pain to go away , I won't be depressed anymore .
Okay , so you almost thought the opposite .
It was like I had it backwards . So I was doing all these physical treatments before I came to a brain and nervous system approach . Yeah , which I think is common oh yeah , and I just and I hear that all the time I just need my pain to go away and I won't be depressed .
But actually I had to start working on my nervous system regulation , working through uplifting my nervous system out of the shutdown state , and then my pain started to reduce .
Yeah , yeah , and I think that's a great motivator and reminder . This is more a reason to maybe keep kind of developing that awareness that I might identify with depression and that is an area to focus on to get better .
Absolutely , and now
¶ Sensitization Cycle and Healing Strategies
we're going to shift to talking about healing strategies .
Yeah , yeah , the first one we really want to outline , which I think is one of the most important , is called purposeful action . Mm-hmm which I think is one of the most important , is called purposeful action . So the key with this is starting small , because I know when we feel depressed we don't want to do any action .
Yeah .
And so . But taking action is big . Often we wait for motivation , so we'll be like okay , well , when I feel motivated , I'll do something , but when we feel low and depressed , motivation doesn't come . So we need to do action first .
Yeah , it's so key because I think a lot of people they focus so much in their mind on their thoughts and , don't get us wrong , some of our approach is working on thoughts and beliefs , but when your nervous system is shut down , it is collapsed and so we need to uplift it .
We need to help start doing these actions that are going to lift us out of this response .
And actions always come first , even if it's not , even if we're not feeling depressed or just feeling stuck or we're feeling kind of in freeze for other reasons .
action is first feeling kind of in freeze for other reasons . Action is first . Yeah , and I like what you said at the beginning here you need to go small when we are depressed and shut down , as I was when I was in pain . If you told me , go apply for 20 jobs , that would have been incredibly overwhelming .
I actually have an event , a memory , where I was off work . You remember this and you were helping me because I was trying so hard to write this cover letter and resume to apply for a job to start working and I couldn't do it . I needed so much support from you because my mind just wasn't working and you basically wrote the cover letter at that point .
But it's just an example that you can't overshoot this . You need to be gentle and careful and compassionate to your nervous system and start these small little steps in the right direction and and I like the compassion piece , tanner , because you're right we have to honor that .
We did these steps . I think , um , it can be really difficult because we can start feeling well , I should be doing this , or I should be doing that , or these steps . I think it can be really difficult because we can start feeling well , I should be doing this , or I should be doing that , or these steps should be .
It should be easier for them to become bigger , but when we're feeling low or depressed , they aren't easy and that's just the reality of it . So , starting small and then applauding those small steps , some examples , and so we have examples of almost widening the world a bit .
That could be showering or getting dressed at a set time , 10 minutes of sunlight outside , journaling for five minutes , working on a creative project , for example , like music , art or dance or something you enjoy , slow movement , yoga or qigong , a five-minute walk , a call to a friend . So all these actions lead to motivation , not the other way around .
Yeah , it's so key to understand Because I remember when I was depressed , I just was waiting for this inspiring moment that would lift me out .
But these small , purposeful actions that I started to implement , they were mobilizing my nervous system , they were starting to give me some of that energy back that I needed , and the more little steps that I did , the more it uplifted me .
Yeah , and so that's a big key . It becomes hopefully easier as time goes on to do more .
And as we talk about consistency , not intensity , with all of this ,
¶ Purposeful Action and Starting Small
now let's move to number two embodiment practices . These are practices that are essential for healing depression and chronic pain symptoms . It's a big part of our approach that we utilize . Now . There is this pressure in our culture Definitely you see this on social media , you see this in news .
There's this pressure to stay positive or to just push through and ignore , especially when we have chronic pain , chronic illness . You hear this a lot . Right , like , just think positive , um , but it almost becomes too toxic .
What , what occurs to people is now they're resisting their dysregulation , they're resisting their difficult emotions and this is going to cause you to feel way more dysregulated over time and worse in your chronic pain , chronic illness . One of the biggest misconceptions I see with embodiments because it's such a trendy term that's used a lot , people use it wrong .
They think I'm going to embody calmness , I'm going to embody ease , but embodiment includes all sensations in your body .
And now one thing I want to say is I'm all for positive thinking , positive messaging , safety messaging that are positive , embodying calmness . So I'm all for that . I talk about that with people , but also feel safe allowing discomfort too .
Well , that's what it is , because if you can do somatic work consistently with the sensations of depression , it's going to teach us over time that we no longer need to fear those sensations and we can learn to cultivate safety and release them .
I remember getting this point early on , when I was healing and I was starting to come out of my depression as I started to do some of this work , and what occurred before my depression fully lifted is I no longer felt in great danger when I was feeling it .
I touched into it , I had explored it , I had given myself exposure to intentionally approaching it and creating safety at the same time so often that when it came up , it wasn't like my whole world was crashing down . I was able to tolerate being with it .
Now , a gift that we want to give all of you is we have a free emotion practice that I will put the link in the description of this podcast episode . This is on our YouTube channel . It'll get you started for free . Also , in our course have over 60 somatic practices and brain retraining exercises to support people .
So if you need the extra support , the link for our course is down below as well .
And our hope for , either like engagement with the course or their free emotion practice , is to help guide people to feel like they can explore emotions and create safety with it and sit with them a little bit and so moving towards them , like Tanner was talking about of that desensitization around it . So number three modify , don't avoid .
And so depression tells us to avoid life , and while rest can be important , avoidance and isolation can make depression louder and that's something we want to remember because everything in us will want to avoid and that makes sense when we feel depressed .
So again , we want to validate that and this kind of modify and don't avoid might feel the opposite of what the body and mind wants .
Yes , it's the opposite of what the urge inside is going to be , because you have to understand where you're going into . A freeze or shutdown response . Your system , it is shutting down to survive . Our nervous system doesn't do things by mistake . It's trying to protect you , and it's trying to protect you by making your world small .
But now we're pushing up against that . So , instead of avoiding , can we just do a little bit more or modify what something bigger might be , so at least we're slowly widening our world out .
So some questions that might be helpful to ask . How can I modify instead of canceling , or instead of a walk , can I sit outside for five minutes Instead of not working today , could I do half the day ?
This is it , because when we get dysregulated myself included our thinking gets so extreme and a common thought pattern that happens to people is this all or nothing .
Yeah , and Tanner , you really relate to that . I think you still struggle with that I still .
It's gotten way better over time . But I'm all or nothing . Either I'm all in , I'm going full cylinders ahead , or I'm all or nothing . Either I'm all in , I'm going full cylinders ahead , or I'm just not going to do it .
Yeah , which is it you know which can be helpful , and sometimes , when we're all in , maybe a little bit , but we can't sustain that Um and can feel really hard , cause when we feel low again , then we're like , okay , nope , not at all , and we just avoid .
And so it's so key of
¶ Embodiment Practices in Healing
can you just modify and do half of what you were going to do ?
Yeah .
So you're not doing nothing . It's still these small behaviors that are mobilizing your system , helping you pull out of a freezer shutdown response . Now the last point we want to hit on , number four build a depression flare plan .
Just as you might imagine , I'll say that one again , alex , just as most of you listening might have a flare-up plan for your chronic pain , chronic illness , having a depression flare plan is key , and so you want to understand when your depression is getting extreme . What are some things that I can utilize ?
Now , the real key here , when I'm talking about this with people , is you want to map this out first . It's like back to that example where I was trying to write that cover letter and complete shutdown .
The reason I needed Anne to do that so much is my brain was shut down Like I couldn't think , and so the last thing you want to be doing is trying to come up with your depression flare plan while you're already in the flare , because it's going to be really hard to do .
Yeah , and that really does relate to when we're in our you know our pain flare , like you said , of like , okay , I've thought of this beforehand , this is kind of what I'm doing to create safety . So , very much similar .
I would write out some points and we'll give you some examples here of what it can include . But again , this is very unique to each person because everyone's nervous system is unique , so you could have people to call or connect with a playlist that comforts you . I have multiple playlists . When I was healing I did , but I do now .
I have playlists where you know I can kind of calm and soothe myself . I have also like uplifting , motivating playlists . They're quite effective , like music can be quite healing in this way . A list of your favorite meals or snacks .
That's usually what I tell people to go to .
Because that's what you go to . That's why you're telling .
That's what I tell people to do too Well , because it's really helpful , it's comforting and it makes me feel good . Obviously that's not the same for everyone .
But you know what . That's yours , in small doses . Of course you want to be careful here , but it is true . I uh , I always know if anne's feeling a little lower because , uh , I'll go into the freezer and all of a sudden there's some ice cream sandwiches in there .
Yeah , I like those . It's ready to go ? Yeah , the kids eat them and then you're upset with the kids , yeah , yeah , so eat your ice cream sandwiches anyways .
We're getting way off track . But a list of your favorite meals or snacks , whether that's ice cream sandwiches or not , a list of friends or family you can call for support Watching your favorite lighthearted show . This is one of my favorites . This was a huge part of my healing , is I ?
When I was feeling low , I felt there's this phenomenon where you're almost you're trying to match your mood with like what you're watching . So what would happen is I'd be watching these like dark shows already feeling awful , and so what I started to do is put on these like light comedies , lighthearted shows , modern Family .
Yeah , Well , you know what , Tanner ? I think that's a great idea because like , and that's a great idea because like , and that's a bit of the fake it till you make it idea and not and not saying that's the positive like thinking we were just talking about . So not like that in terms of like forcing yourself to just be positive .
But that is kind of trying to bring yourself into a bit more joyful sensation by watching a light-hearted show , and so you're trying to kind of shift states that way .
Absolutely
¶ Modify Don't Avoid
. And then we got safety signals , which is a big part of our approach . This could be present moment sensing , really , truly , for three to five minutes . Focus on sight , sound , taste , touch , smell , whatever feels supportive for you Like , really dive into that . Some of that simple mindfulness stuff .
The reason there was that huge trend in the early 2000s around mindfulness was it works . It really does work . And so you know , I think a lot of people know of mindfulness but when push comes to shove we don't do it . And so some of that simple present moment sense , it can be so supportive . It could be breath work , certain breathing patterns .
If you are doing breath work you don't need to get super fancy Long exhale in and out through the nose , exhale twice as long as the inhale .
If you can do that consistently , that's going to help calm your system and put you in a better state that maybe you could go and do some purposeful action and put you in a better state that maybe you could go and do some purposeful action .
And it could also be somatic massage , like massaging your ears , massaging the backs and side of your neck , making small circles on your chest . All these things can be very supportive and naturally bring a sense of compassion that we truly need when we feel depressed .
The other thing that you can do like we said , part of how we can create safety is through these cognitive messages , so that goes back to that kind of a bit of where we can bring in a bit of that positivity where it is helpful . Yeah , and you don't need to lie to yourself here .
You're going for safe self-talk to try and create a sense of safety within , and really we're going for more balanced ways of thinking . So we'll give you some examples here . My nervous system is trying to protect me by shutting down . I don't need to fear these sensations .
Or these sensations don't need to indicate any disease or physical problem my body is physically healthy I can teach my body to move and lift out of the freeze response I can respond to sensations with deep care and compassion for myself I don't need to like the sensations , I just need to remember why they're safe yes , so all of these things that we just covered
can be part of your depression
¶ Building a Depression Flare Plan
flare plan . Yeah .
And again , prepare this when you are well and you're feeling good or somewhat of a higher mood , and use it when you're feeling low .
Yeah , and we know that when we're feeling low we might be feeling pain , or when we're feeling pain , we might be feeling low .
So it could be targeting the pain and kind of the sensations and low mood of depression at the same time personally , I've experienced this and witnessed me go through this , and I know this is incredibly hard , but you're taking the first step of even listening to this episode .
You're here to overcome this , and so it's knowing that healing is possible by using these strategies that we've outlined in this episode , although we outline them in a very simplistic way . We know this can be complex and it can take time , so just consistently start to make small steps towards working through your depression . So thank you everyone for listening .
Thanks for listening .
And we'll talk to you all soon .
Talk to you next week . Thanks for listening . For more free content , check out the links for our YouTube channel , instagram and Facebook accounts in the episode description .
We wish you all healing .