Dr Michelle Drouin [00:00:02] My name is Michelle Drouin, I am a psychologist, a professor at Purdue University, Fort Wayne, I'm a senior research scientist for a large hospital system here in northeast Indiana. And I own my own company called Forensic Psychology Consultants, where we do consulting and expert witness work for criminal and civil cases all over the world.
Sahil Saluja [00:33:13] I I want to ask you has sexting actually benefited relationships or has it actually reduced the need for physical intimacy? And how should you go about it? I think sexting is a very awkward and a weird thing to do if you're not into it. I actually I don't want to know how to go about it on second thoughts. Maybe answer the first question.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:33:38] OK, so let me address those in turn. Is it good for a relationship? The answer is it depends. It depends on the kind of relationship. There's a paper that I did with some of my colleagues on the benefits and costs of sexting, some of the costs are that you no longer have the photo or the video. The person could have it forever. Whatever you sent, even if you send it via a disappearing app they could snapshot a picture with another phone. There's no guarantee that that is not out there. And that does cause people worry, not even just like them, having had them showing it to other people, then forwarding it to other people, just not feeling really great about the fact that you've exposed your body to someone. There are a host of negative consequences and those are most likely to occur in casual relationships. So from anything from one night stands to friends with benefits, we just don't have some type of committed relationship. Now, there are a host of positive benefits as well. So some people say it was fun, it's flirtatious. It actually sets up our sexual exchanges in a positive way. We get to talk sexy to each other when we're at a physical distance. There are all kinds of reasons why people might engage in sexting and it brings something positive to their lives. Those positive consequences are more likely to occur in committed relationships which you'd understand there's more trust there, right? There's more, I think, of an agreement that these things will stay between us. I would say, though, that although on the whole, people said more positives than negatives. It won out by only a little bit. And in some other research that I've done, I found that people who sext a lot. So this is work I've done with Brandon McDaniel and a man, Adam Galavan, who's in Canada. And we found that people who sex a lot, they're called the hyper sexters, they actually have more conflict in a relationship, more ambivalence, which means they don't know if they want to stay or go. They have more fights over tech use. There might be more pornography viewing. So the people who are in couples where there's a lot of sexting, there tend to be more relationship problems. So it's not like hyper sexters have the best relationships. The one place where they do usually edge others out is their sexual satisfaction. I do think there's a way to get that sexual satisfaction without sexting, though, which actually leads into your next question, does it displace physical intimacy? I was actually called by the media a few years ago to do an interview about why sex frequency is going down for the millennials. So basically the frequency of sex is a really good health indicator. Sex is good for your body for a lot of reasons. It's it's kind of a good thing when people are having sex. Now, I'm not saying that's a blanket statement, so I want to be very careful to say that. But generally, the frequency of sex indicator is viewed as something positive. People are out getting physically intimate and it's gone down for millennials. The number of people or who are having sex at all is going down. And one of the reasons why I think it might be happening is that they're having all of these very distilled relationships right. And nothing gets too serious. And maybe because of that, we never get to sex. Sex is still and a lot of culture is something that you engage in when you have quite a bit of intimacy build up. Now, of course, one night stands happen, for sure, but if you're in a regular relationship, you're going to have sex a lot more often than if you're just getting one night stands here and there. So actually, the most productive sexual relationships are between people who are in couples, married people and people in committed relationships. Now, that does decline over the life course. But generally for millennials, one of the reasons might be because they're not coupling up as much, because there are so many choices. Is it sexting necessarily displacing sexual behavior? I'm not sure, but I would say the Internet generally and the ability to communicate with a lot of people and maybe not get very deep with any of them might be displacing the physical intimacy that normally characterized that time of life.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:37:34] Nowadays, it's all about choice, right? It's like a menu out there. So all you have to do is have a look at your phone and you've all these people that you may have access to, which grass is always greener on the other side. We've talked about how technology has changed our use, and I guess that's the same for love as well. So there's now this whole modern love. So there's obviously a few apps out there now. Tinder, we've got Bumble, we've got Hinge. I don't know what else there is.
Sahil Saluja [00:38:00] The there's like Her for same sex couples and there's Grinder for same sex couples as well.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:38:06] So there's a certain level of shame to it, I find. But this is the future now.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:38:11] One hundred percent. If I were in the dating world right now I'd one hundred percent be using apps, yes, I, I look up a hundred reviews for my face creams. Like I am definitely going to be using apps to kind of find love or to check up on people. I mean the amount of surveillance we can now do online is incredible and I think that we are in full force. So it means that we want information about the world. Right. And the dating world is part of that world. So it is not the era where you can only date your neighbors because you only have one horse and you don't have a phone, right? Yeah, like I don't have any limitations in the people I choose to love and something I claim in my book...for most people, the average person, you could go on a date every night for the rest of your life and still probably not exhaust the number of compatible people that there are in this world for you. You could go on a date every single night. There are so many compatible people with the average person, you just have to find them. And I'm not no longer limited, like I said to the people that are in my neighborhood or that I work with, the whole world is available to me. Right? So why not use an app that could help you find that unique set of traits that you think is important because those things are not necessarily going to be found in your local coffee shop or at your church or the people who you're at work with or you go to school with. It opens the world in really important ways. So if you're trying to find someone who's compatible with you, there's no greater source than the Internet. So I think there should be no shame associated with it. I think the second part of your question, though, really is how do you get the most of it with there being so many options for you? And that is a more difficult question to answer. It is a true problem. I call it the Needle in the Haystack phenomenon. Every time you spend time chatting with, going out with, doing anything with someone who is not compatible with you, you are wasting time. Now, it's not a complete waste of time. You might learn something about yourself. You might learn something about the world. You might learn something about them. But in terms of like moving you towards a relationship or even sex or whatever your goal is, it's a cost. OK, you taking that time. So how do you choose who to spend your time with? How do you make those types of decisions? And that's not the only decision you have to make. You have to make a decision about how many people am I talking to at the same time? When do I choose to meet up with them? How long do I keep the relationship going? How many dates do I actually go on before I decide this person is not the one? Should I date this person plus also bring on a new person? There are so many decisions involved with online dating, so I think people have to recognize those decisions. And again it comes down to rules, they have to make some rules for themselves. Like I'm going to only date one person at a time, for example. That makes it easy. I'm not going to even entertain. I'm not going to message anyone. I'm going to date one person at a time, decide if that person is for me. And then truly, this is just a general dating rule that I will set out there. My own opinion. I'm going to caveat it with that. But if you know something isn't working end it. It it's the best thing for both of you. Let you both go on to find someone who is going to work for you. It does you no favor. It does the other person no favor to keep something going on that just isn't working. It's called social economizing. And going back to something earlier, I think that Sahil was saying is we have all of these demands on our time. Right. You have to make hard choices. Do I spend time walking with my mom in the morning or do I spend time on a dating app if I were single? And what I will tell you is that if you make those decisions quickly by finding out, digging in deep with these relationship prospects and saying, is this really something there, whether that means like meeting them really quickly, taking it from this offline space to an online space to see if there's any real intimacy face to face, whatever it means to you to advance that relationship, get there quick so that you can make a really good decision very quickly and then move on if that's what you need to do. So there are lots of ways. Again, I outlined this a lot in my book about ways that you can make decisions. But I will also tell you we make decisions really quickly. We know whether someone is compatible with us in just a few minutes usually. The feelings that we have when we're really attracted to someone kick in quickly, we make those decisions with art, we like with music, we like. It only takes a few seconds really to know, is this someone I'm going to like or have the potential to even like? So I want people to get there quickly and that will help save their time.
Sahil Saluja [00:42:37] I generally make a joke while picking my nose. And if they're OK with that, I know that's worth my time.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:42:41] That is really not a good way.
Sahil Saluja [00:42:42] Let's move on.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:42:43] I don't know if that's ever going to be ok.
Sahil Saluja [00:42:45] That's what I'm going to do on a regular basis, picking my nose.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:42:50] Does that work? Do you find any quality matches.
Sahil Saluja [00:42:53] I'm very I'm not good at dating at all.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:42:57] I, I would have never suspected that.
Sahil Saluja [00:43:00] I get exhausted very quickly and I'm like, no, this is like can you imagine going on a date every day of the year.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:43:07] It's very - it is very exhausting and expensive.
Sahil Saluja [00:43:10] It is expensive. And the one thing technology has done now, it's made it less expensive. Right, because you're not meeting because you're not meeting until a certain time. So you're like, this is OK. But there was one thing related to sexting was how much of the sexting actually happens in relationships that are called extra dyadic relationship?
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:43:29] You know what this is? This is a really good question, because extra dyadic relationships are relationships that are outside your diad. If you have a diad. Now, polyamory is becoming much more popular. So a lot of people don't exist within traditional constructs of relationships. But if you are in a dyad, I think those extra dyadic relationships are getting quite a lot of action regarding sexting, because if you think about it, it's such a convenient medium with which to communicate to a paramour. It's basically hidden. You can hide between whatsapp, signal, disappearing messages. I mean, so many apps now have those disappearing functions. So you can do that. And they are just lurking there in your friends list and no one would even know it. So I don't think that this is really been studied. Like what percentage is extra dyadic versus between couples. But I often say that the kind of text message I sent to my husband is usually like, can you pick up some milk on the way home? All right. So that's usually not what people are sending to their lovers. I think people who when they are in cheating relationships and we know that sexting occurs more often in committed relationships than it does necessarily in cheating relationships. However, that's the entire point of the relationship. When people are cheating, they want sex. Sexting as a way to communicate sex, especially when you guys can't be co-located. So I think it's probably the medium of choice for people who are stepping out.
Sahil Saluja [00:44:58] This one is a really complicated question. And I'm sure you have an opinion on it, but how should a couple define cheating?
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:45:04] Oh, you know what? I don't even need to have an opinion on it because there is research on it. So luckily, people who were more innovative than I was, I know one of the people is Lucita Sullivan, and she's from Canada as well. And she and I have co-authored a couple of other papers together, but she actually did research on what are acts that are considered infidelity, and she put it on a scale. So she basically asked hundreds of people, how much do you think that this is cheating, basically? And so at the tippy top of the list, you have what you'd expect to ask. Like sexual intercourse is considered at the top of the list below that, things like oral sex and then taking a shower with someone is up there and then right below that. So at five or six is sexting, which was really surprising to me. So sending an explicit picture or video was right up there and it was higher than going on a date with someone, kissing someone. So people have more tolerance for like if my partner goes on a date and holds hand with someone, they have more tolerance for that in general than if they sent them a naked video. It's all -.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:46:12] That's fascinating.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:46:13] But this is what we see from the norms. That said sexting is becoming a lot more common. It is a currency. When we do surveys with the college students who come into my university, I'll ask them about their sexting history. Some of them have sent hundreds and hundreds of messages to 50 partners. And I just think, gosh, it's so much media out there. And again, if you're talking about a digital billboard, there's so much potential for some of that to leak out to places where you don't want it to, so because of the different currency that I think it now is. I think it's just going to change the flavor of these relationships and what sexting really means. It's not necessarily maybe viewed the way it was before. Like, I think it's a big deal - sending a photo of yourself naked, a big deal, but I don't think teenagers think it is anymore. So I wouldn't be surprised if it starts dropping in the rankings.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:47:03] I would feel that maybe emotional cheating. I feel like that's way more hurtful.
Sahil Saluja [00:47:08] Bullshit.
Sahil Saluja [00:47:09] That was going to be my next comment. I think it's easier said than done when it happens to you.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:47:13] I think emotional cheating is way worse.
Sahil Saluja [00:47:15] Not even in the top six, though. Think about it.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:47:17] it.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:47:18] But then sexting is there because sexting is emotional as well.
Sahil Saluja [00:47:24] Sexting is still sex. It's I don't know.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:47:27] What do you think about it? We're obviously having like a debate.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:47:30] It's super individualistic. I mean, I think there might be a gender divide here, too. OK, so what women believe is a transgression versus what men think is a transgression might be different. So, yeah, I mean, it would hurt me way more if my husband were to come home and say I've fallen in love with someone than for him to come home and say, I slept with someone. It would hurt me more. For him, I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if he would be more hurt if I had an emotional or physical affair. But emotional cheating was on there on the list. It wasn't as high as sending like a text message, but it is something that people still consider cheating. And again, it's going to be individualistic. It's going to be, I think, again, determined by gender. I would be upset with both of them, to be honest.
Sahil Saluja [00:48:13] So, yeah, for me, they're as bad. And I think it depends on how, because the line is so clear with sexual cheating. With emotional cheating it's not that clear and you can always justify it. Oh, no, he was just a friend, you know, and that's the issue with that. You can't really define emotional cheating, too well. Sexual cheating is clear. If you slept with someone, you slept with someone, that's it. And that's bad. But with emotional cheating, the line gets really blurry.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:48:34] What about when they fall in love, though? I mean, I think for me that's that's horrible.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:48:40] Because it's hard to come back from that to right as well. Like, you can lose the person because of it.
Sahil Saluja [00:48:45] And that that is another thing that you pointed out in your papers is how much of that thing happens at work and workplaces. I find very interesting.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:48:55] I was saying, again, you're hitting every topic in my book, but this is normal, right? So we do something called niche picking based on our genes. I told you guys I'd love to be in a living room with you right now because my genes are drawn to you guys. I think we would be friends. I think I would love to hang out with you, but people with similar genetic profiles tend to group together. What I say is like drops of oil and a glass of water. You find the people who are like you, OK? And it's really hard to separate you. And you don't necessarily know that you're genetically similar, but you probably are. And that's what draws you. It's called niche picking. And it's a real effect that our genes have as they interact with the environment to make the people that we are. So what I think is that we are constantly doing this niche picking and work is one of the greatest examples of that. Right. You went into a similar job. You went you chose that place. You have probably similar skill sets. You have maybe similar goals. There might not be a group of people on this earth who are more similar to you than the people who chose to work at your place of work. So I think that's why so much workplace romance happens, because you found your people, these are your people. I also say that about people who cheat with their friends' boyfriends and girlfriends. That's also really common. And I'm like, of course it is. You like your friends, you're probably going to like the people that they date. Right. And you're all attracting kind of the same types of people and you get to spend time with them. And it is not true that familiarity breeds contempt. Instead, there's a really strong phenomenon that's just proximity brings people closer. The more that I see you, the more I like you, period. I like you guys more now than I did when we started out this conversation, because I've gotten to know you. I've gotten to spend time with you. And that's just a simple, like law of attraction. It's called the mere exposure phenomenon. The more I'm exposed to you, typically, the more I'm going to like you.
Sahil Saluja [00:50:52] You spoke a lot about having a bedtime routine for couples and they should go to bed at the same time
Huda Cadekiwala [00:50:57] Couples in long term committed relationship.
Sahil Saluja [00:50:58] Yeah, or short. What happens when one partner in the relationship is, you know, it doesn't have the same time routine as you do and like shift workers and stuff like that. How are you still able to have that routine and how do you bring that balance and does that affect relationship?
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:51:13] You know, we talked about this as soon as I did this research with Brandon McDaniel. We both work for this hospital system here. And one of the people who works in mental health outreach, she came in and she said, is this affecting our shift workers, our nurses who are on different shifts as their partners? Are they not having this very essential thing that's supposed to keep them close as a couple? And what can we do about it? So we're actually thinking of researching that and actually trying to develop some strategies for people who do have opposite work schedules. The point is, we say bed time just because bed time is a convenient leisure time. It's a time when typically most couples don't have other obligations or they push those other obligations away for the benefit of the couple. And a lot of people aren't doing that right. A lot of people, instead of using that time to connect, they're using that time to surf the Internet, play video games, watch TV in a separate room. A lot of people are choosing to spend what I see as a very valuable leisure time as a couple alone. And they're feeling it. They're really feeling the effects of being basically snubbed for another activity when their partner could be spending time with them. My advice to people who are shift workers or who don't have compatible schedules with their partner is to find and carve out that time where you can spend together. You know you can't survive as a couple if you never spend time together. I mean, some people I think, do well because they just never fight because they never see each other. But if you actually want to grow and get deep, then the way to do so is through sharing more leisure together. So find the time. Maybe it's going to be in the morning. It doesn't have to be bedtime necessarily. But I think that that would be a solution for people who don't share the same schedule. Most of us, though, live in a world where we can have that time be around night time. So I think it's just really important for people to do.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:53:03] What I really loved in your language at the very beginning, you didn't leave out your husband at all. Most people, when they say, I don't have time for the kids, I don't have time for the kids, I need to make time for them. And of course, that's 100 percent important. But they never say time for my husband or time for my wife. And that, I think, is something I caught on to very early on. As soon as you started speaking, you said, you know, these are my important things that I need to balance. And your husband was in that.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:53:32] Thank you. We'll be married 25 years next year and I still have my wedding dress and is still fine. I think we're going to do a recommitment ceremony. I got married in the 90s so you'd think my wedding dress is some kind of atrocity but it's really actually cute. So one of the things that I think is really important in relationships, if you choose to have one, is that you don't put your partner on the backburner basically for anyone else. So from the time that we've had children, we've reinstated to each other, it's me and you. We are the ones that we love the most. And our children come as their secondary beautiful part of that. They are the offspring of this love that we have for each other. But he is my most valued human. And I, I can't imagine living in a relationship where that isn't true. So I think that's what helps me every single day, like show a good example to my kids too. I want them to find partners that they feel that for. And I keep saying to them, it makes me so sad because one day you're going to love your wife more than you love me. And they're like, no, never. I'm like ok. But I hope it happens for you. I hope that you go on to find this thing that Dad and I have.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:54:43] Cat fishing! What that is and how common, I guess it can be or what are the signs?
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:54:49] OK, so cat fishing is when you pretend to be something that you're not online and you get other people involved in that ruse in some way. So we have some really famous examples of that. Manti Te'o. He was a Notre Dame football player and he was being cat fished by someone who claimed to be a girl and it really wasn't a girl, it was actually a boy. And he thought he was in a relationship with this person. It made headlines because all these weird things happen every time they're supposed to meet. This person said they, like, lost a family member. These cat fishing things that really make it into the mainstream media seem to have pretty similar vibes, like the people keep making excuses why not to meet things like that. But in a small way, I think cat-fishing happens all the time. The photos that people are putting on social media, they're not their worst photos. Right. My friend, who does a lot of online dating, he says that one of the worst things is when he shows up and someone's photo is really different than what they actually look like. And he said it's really common that that happens. So is that cat fishing - a little bit? Right, because we're putting up a version of ourselves that is not actually reflective of reality. So in some ways, everything that you see on the Internet is a little bit of cat fishing. Like when I post a picture, I would have definitely if I were posting a picture right now, there would be nothing here that indicates that anyone lives in my house. It would be pristine. It would be beautiful because I would want to present that. It is really a reflection of me. However, it's the best version. So what you have to understand is the world is cat-fishing us a little bit. Everything you see is the best view of their reality, the best view of it, and maybe not even reflective of their reality. Some people lie completely. A lot of people lie, you know, lying is really normal to a lot of people. I think people lie on average like twice a day or something. That is the statistic. So the fact that people would be lying and trying to present a better version of themselves, it's totally normal. We want to be liked, we want to be adored.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:56:51] And as Madonna says, if you don't take me at my what is it? If you can't handle me, ok hang on. If you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best.
Sahil Saluja [00:57:00] Yeah. I mean, Madonna is fucking saying that when she is 65 and her partner is 21.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:57:04] Who was it? Sorry.
Sahil Saluja [00:57:04] She is 65 and she is dating a 24 year old.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:57:08] Who was that chick that pulled her dress down on that thing. It's alright.
Sahil Saluja [00:57:12] Screw Madonna. I don't think Madonna is the one to take a moral stance. But also, why is there a need and I think this could be a solution to a lot of problems. Why is there a need to show our best self versus authentic self? And why are people so uncomfortable showing that or even people seeing someone's authentic self? It's it's very confronting sometimes.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:57:34] It is. And I think a lot of those people can get a lot of backlash, which is why people don't do it. First of all, why do we want to present our best self? We have a need to belong. We have self esteem needs, we have needs to be loved. So when you said earlier, like, I want to show that my kids are beautiful, like that helps with my self-esteem and we need self-esteem to go through this world effectively. I think that people have innocent motivations for wanting to show their best selves. They're putting their best foot forward. They want to be accepted. They want to be loved. And that is a normal natural human motivation. And then I think the other part of it is then why are people having this crazy reaction sometimes when people present an authentic self and why do they get backlash? Well, we live in a culture of shame. I have talked about this endlessly. I feel really, really sorry for digital natives who are so afraid to take a single misstep and have it haunt them. So that same digital billboard that I teach my children about in terms of making sure that they tailor what they post, that's the same billboard that might come back to haunt them when they've revealed something about themselves. That's a big share, that's vulnerable. When any person is vulnerable on the Internet, they're taking a huge risk of attack. And it's so sad. We live in such a horrible culture of shame. Again, if we think of the Internet as the status playground, people can really hurt people for being their authentic selves. So I think that's why people are refrained to present that side of themselves, because for fear of attack, I know this was something that we wanted to touch upon. One of the questions you guys had was about ghosting.
Huda Cadekiwala [00:59:11] That's one of the questions I was going to ask. And I'm like, I'm not sure if she has time, but yes, please elaborate.
Dr Michelle Drouin [00:59:16] So I have just a couple of minutes. So, you know, a lot of times in this talk, I've said something to you guys about human motivation. I'm really into it. I'm really thinking a lot these days, but always really about what humans need, what we need basics for survival. And I've said it a couple of times, so I know I'm being redundant, but maybe not for your audience, which is we need at a basic level, food and water. OK, then we need security. We need to just feel like, OK, I have a house to live in. I have a job like my basic needs will be met. And right above that we need to feel like we belong and that we're loved. And that makes the interactions that we have with other people really meaningful to us so that when we even get a hint of rejection, it threatens us at a very basic level of human emotion, which is that need to belong and that need to feel loved. If you couple onto that, we need closure. We're a species that's drawn to wanting to see the end to a beginning. So when someone goes to us, it's the perfect storm for causing havoc. It can make a totally normal and functional individual act completely off the rails because they're like, what is happening? Why is this person thinking about me? And that's normal. We are evolved human beings. If we didn't think about the way other people thought, that would be underutilizing our cognitive capacity. We can think about what they think and that allows us to be empathetic. That allows us to call them when we know that their mom is going through surgery because we think they must be worried. And therefore, I'm going to call them some well-meaning individuals, I think trying to get you to not think about what other people think. But that's misguided. We do it as humans. It's because we have a socially evolved brain and that's normal and adaptive. It hurts when people ghost. A better way to end things is to actually end them. If you're going to end something with someone and if you want then to air something with someone, air it. If you need to confront someone about something, confront them. Ghosting hurts at a super basic level. So I think to me, a good way to end this would be communication means a lot. Love means a lot. And feeling like I belong on this earth and I'm connected to the world might be the most meaningful thing that I can get out of this life. So I think people should try to go forward with that in mind and try to do as little harm as possible and try not to ghost.
Sahil Saluja [01:01:34] And if you're five feet ten inches, say your five feet ten, you don't have to say five, eleven and a half or six. Just don't. You're not...you're never going to reach that. It's not going to happen.
Huda Cadekiwala [01:01:45] I love how you have turned her really beautiful note to that.
Dr Michelle Drouin [01:01:52] I love it.
Dr Michelle Drouin [01:01:56] You're just like saying all this beautiful stuff. And he's just like, alright, right. By the way, this is the reality of life.
Dr Michelle Drouin [01:02:02] I know it's perfect. We should set up a duo. We should go travel. That would work. I think it could be really successful.
Huda Cadekiwala [01:02:13] I think, you know, I'll I'll be honest, this is the one time I'm going to say it online. You're good value.
Dr Michelle Drouin [01:02:19] Yes, I agree.
Sahil Saluja [01:02:22] I don't know how to respond to that.
Huda Cadekiwala [01:02:23] He's, like, blown away because I never say this.
Dr Michelle Drouin [01:02:25] It is a real compliment. I know. I can tell. I'm loving watching the moment. So great.
Sahil Saluja [01:02:31] Thank you so much, Michelle. It was an absolute pleasure. And I'm kind of glad we didn't ask you anything because we want people to read Out of touch. When does it come out?
Dr Michelle Drouin [01:02:39] February. February. So I think it'll be right before Valentine's Day.
Huda Cadekiwala [01:02:43] Oh, nice way to do it. So Out of touch: how to survive an intimacy famine. I'm actually looking forward to reading it. And hopefully we'll be speaking to you again sometime down the track. You just never know.
Sahil Saluja [01:02:53] When you're in Melbourne.
Huda Cadekiwala [01:02:54] Yeah, when you're in Melbourne.
Huda Cadekiwala [01:03:13] Thank you so much, Michelle.
Dr Michelle Drouin [01:03:14] Bye bye. Thanks.
Sahil Saluja [01:03:15] Bye.