Hugh McKay [00:00:00] I'm Hugh McKay, I'm a social psychologist and I've been a social researcher for about 60 years listening to, observing, studying the Australian way of life and the social changes that have been reshaping Australia. Later in my career, I began writing books about my research. I've now produced 22 of those books. And the latest one is called The Kindness Revolution,
Huda [00:00:26] Which we'll be talking about today, because pretty much the reason we started Humane Productions
Sahil [00:00:31] and we thought we were the pioneers of it, and then we realised Hugh has done it
Huda [00:00:35] He's all over it.
Sahil [00:00:36] So one thing about you Hugh that the world doesn't know-
Hugh McKay [00:00:39] So much of my history has been revealed in my books or in interviews. I wonder what the world doesn't know about me. I don't know. I suppose one thing that perhaps people could be interested in is that one of the most therapeutic things I do is sing in a choir, weekly choir rehearsals, the highlight of my week.
Huda [00:01:00] That's pretty cool.
Sahil [00:01:01] Huda loves to sing.
Hugh McKay [00:01:03] Well, I think of choral music as being a kind of the ultimate metaphor for humanity, that if I were to stand up in a concert hall and sing a solo, the hall would empty very quickly and I'd combine my voice with all the other people who produce beautiful music. And I think that's a lovely analogy. That's how we are as humans and in isolation we're pretty hopeless.
Huda [00:01:28] That's a very good segue. I guess with being locked down, it's kind of affected a lot of the way we behave and the way we do things. And I found that we've tapped into our consideration for others a fair bit in terms of, you know, we've started thinking what's happening to all the small businesses around here and how is this affecting other people and actually considering all the suicide rates that are happening, which I think is fair to say that it's affecting everyone quite heavily and it seems to be that there is no end to it at the moment. Obviously, by that, especially with Melbourne, we constantly get into lockdown. There's always numbers rising-.
Sahil [00:02:06] Six months. Over the last year, Melbourne, we just counted the days that we've been in lockdown for six months, more than any other place in the world.
Huda [00:02:15] That's insane. That's so crazy. So, I mean, I guess what I wanted to ask is, why is it that in such a hard time people have now started considering others? I mean, what is it about us that once we feel a sense of aloneness, it's affected our sense of compassion?
Hugh McKay [00:02:33] Well, this is the story of human beings. We are, by nature, kind, compassionate, cooperative individuals. That's that's the species we belong to. It's a beautiful species. We have the capacity to be kind to people we don't like, the people we could never agree with, kind to total strangers. That's who we are. But sometimes we forget that. Sometimes we are distracted from that by an ego-driven agenda. We become competitive, we become acquisitive. We become obsessed with our own sense of identity, who we are, why we're special, why we're different from everyone else, our independence. But then a shock comes along. It might be in an individual, a relationship breakdown or a life threatening illness or retrenchment or some other major disruption to life or on a societal level, it might be bushfires or floods or a war or in this case, a pandemic. And when we come up against a crisis, when we're threatened by catastrophe or a major disruption, well, almost always happens is that we without even realising it, we go right back to the essence of our human nature. We become in an emergency and a crisis. Typically, we become who we really are, which is these cooperative creatures who are disposed to be kind, helpful, compassionate towards each other, prepared to make sacrifices for the common good. Not not everybody and not always immediately. Sometimes in the face of a catastrophe or a looming crisis, we resort to panic or fear. And both fear and panic bring out the worst in us. But almost always we move quickly into a nobler phase. Responding to what Abraham Lincoln once described as the better angels of our nature, where we are more truly human and to be truly human is to go beneath the surface of all those different identities that we love to talk about and celebrate and claim and to acknowledge that we share a common humanity, that we're the kind of people who can only survive, let alone thrive in community. We need families. We need neighbourhoods. We need groups and communities of all kinds to nurture us and sustain us and to give us that all important sense of belonging that so fundamental to mental and emotional health of members of a social species. So a curious thing about us is that we go through periods in our personal life or in the life of a society where we lose sight of all that. I mean, the story of Australia over the last 30 or 40 years, like many other Western societies, has been the story of a society moving in entirely the opposite direction, driven by our shrinking households, our rate of relationship breakdown, our busyness, our mobility, our embrace of information technology at the expense of face to face contact. Lots of social changes have been driving us in the direction of a kind of rampant individualism, which is antithetical to kindness. The 'Me' culture has emerged. We're all obsessed about our own identity, our own happiness, our own well-being. And we forget that we're on the earth to make it a better place. And we do that by responding to the needs of others and not just looking after number one.
Huda [00:06:04] Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because you said the Western culture, and I think I agree in the terms of, you know, we often in the Western communities have quite a bit of, I would say, sort of almost like entitlement. You know, when we talk about this sort of stuff, it's funny because we have all these Third World countries that are quite you know, they don't have what we have. And often they're the ones that are in communities and they're the ones that are at home.
Sahil [00:06:29] And it's interesting because even in Asian countries - so both of us are South Asians - I've realised that, you know, it's really interesting when a Westerner ends up going to India and they see people begging, like it's a very shocking image for them. But I look at them outside of that and they are actually the happiest people. I saw this little girl just sharing a bread with five siblings. That piece of bread couldn't have been shared between five siblings. No way. But there was just a true sense of, like you said, community and happiness, which which was just that they didn't have to work for it or go to a retreat to find it.
Hugh McKay [00:07:02] That's right. The deepest sense of satisfaction, the sense of life satisfaction and wellbeing comes from being connected. And that's why we look at people, often in poorer circumstances, who are nevertheless absolutely integrated with the community, are accepting of their situation and their life satisfaction is probably greater than people who are striving to improve their status through material possessions or who are climbing the status ladder in some other way, who are competing with each other, who are constantly on the lookout for the next new thing. And as you just said, what are they entitled to? We're entitled to happiness. We're entitled to material comfort and prosperity. In Australia we had 28 years of uninterrupted economic growth. Isn't that wonderful? Well, of course, it's not wonderful in the sense that it didn't do much for social cohesion. In fact, the story of that 30 or 40 year period that I describe so much social change was the story of an increasingly fragmented society with more social isolation, less social cohesion. And the consequence of that is the three epidemics that always follow from a period of social disintegration or fragmentation, the epidemics of anxiety, depression and loneliness, all signs of the fact that we are not integrated, we're not socially cohesive.
Sahil [00:08:27] And Hugh, I was just thinking about all the information that we absorb. You know, there's a lot of social media influences. There are people who talk about happiness a lot. You know, there's these gurus now who are all obsessed with the idea of happiness. But the more news that we see around us, the more information but it's also negative. When you were talking about humanity and how at its core it wants compassion, I felt like you were talking about some other race. I felt like you weren't talking about India. And some people might even call you an optimist. What do you say to them? Because you said at our hearts, we we do want to be compassionate, but everywhere that I see around maybe it's because of the source of information that I'm getting, it's all about power and who has more power and power has somehow become a symbol of humanity.
Hugh McKay [00:09:11] Yes. Well, if you judge the state of our society or the state of the world by news that we get through the media, whether mass media or social media, you would think that it's a nasty, brutal, ugly place where people are behaving violently and competitively and selfishly. And, of course, that is true. That sort of stuff is going on. But the reason why the news is full of it is that it's news. But that's the those are the exceptions. That's the extraordinary stuff. What is actually happening all around us all the time is acts of kindness and goodwill and compassion and neighbours looking out for each other and so on. I mean, I mentioned that the social trend has been in the opposite direction, but our true nature and it emerges, as we've just been saying, in a crisis like the present one, our true nature is to make sacrifices for the common good, to look out for other people to be kinder and more caring, and that's going on all the time, even even before the pandemic and even where these social trends have been pushing us in the direction of more fragmentation. All the people who volunteer night after night, week after week, year after year to help feed the poor or the homeless, the people who go and cope slow readers of the local school, the people who would never dream of passing you in the street without smiling and saying hello, the people who late in life plant trees. How about that for the sort of species we belong to? Don't you love the idea that someone is planting trees that they will never see in maturity? They're never going to pick the fruit. They're never going to sit in the shade of those trees. They're doing that for future generations. A beautiful thing. Now, that's that's human nature at its best. But the important point there is it's human nature. It's not natural for us to compete. It's not natural for us to be self-centred and self-absorbed. We learn that. And when we're dealing with a society at a stage in its social evolution, which has become more fragmented, more materialistic, more individualistic, that certainly does bring out the worst in a lot of people. I'm hoping it's a trend that is going to be reversed by this present crisis.
Huda [00:11:24] It's interesting that you said that it's a society that makes or that gives us an ego. We had somebody on quite recently who he spoke about ego itself and how if you were alone on a desert, you wouldn't have a need for an ego. And yeah, and I thought that that was actually one of the best ways, I guess, people have ever really put it, because oftentimes you find that the ego is important because we need that so that we're not always full of anxiety and completely falling apart all the time.
Sahil [00:11:55] Why the hell are we in the desert in the first place? That's my question. This is fine where we are. It's it's human need to just go explore. I don't like where I live. I want to go somewhere else.
Hugh McKay [00:12:06] But this is a very important point you've touched on Huda because, yes, ego is all about differences. It's all about how I'm unique and special like identity. That's what it's about. Now, the whole question of identity only makes sense in a social context. I mean, our identity is how we tell the difference between each other and separate identities, different egos, different personality types. All these things make life fascinating and shows us what a remarkably diverse species human beings belong to. But in the end, none of that stuff matters as much as our common humanity. And as you say, if you're in isolation, it all falls away. Identity is of no interest, whatever. By the way, we know that if you are in isolation for too long, this is going to be a very unhealthy state because it's associated, as I've already said, with anxiety and depression and loneliness, but also with cognitive decline, hypertension, inflammation, disturbed sleep, vulnerability to addiction. There's a long list of health hazards that go with being socially isolated. We absolutely need each other. But it's a conundrum because when we're with each other, we also need a sense of identity to tell the difference between us and that can get in the way of the deeper sense of our common humanity.
Huda [00:13:27] One thing that I find quite sad when I hear people say that, you know, they can be surrounded by so many people and still feel alone. And I think that's the biggest catastrophe of our society.
Hugh McKay [00:13:38] Well, in Australia, the most recent research on this that was published just a couple of years ago by Swinburne University and the Australian Psychological Society reported that 25 per cent of Australians feel lonely for most of every week. Twenty Five per cent. And the highest level of loneliness is in young adults, the sort of 18 to 24 age group who, incidentally, are also the heaviest users of social media.
Huda [00:14:05] So it seems to go back to that, doesn't it? The lack of intimacy
Hugh McKay [00:14:08] They're the age group who are most connected in a technology sense and yet most lonely. And that's not surprising, of course, because technology is I mean, we're having a conversation via technology, but it's totally different from the experience of being in the same place at the same time and being able to make eye contact and pick up all those rich subtleties of interpersonal communication. When you're missing that, then loneliness is the inevitable consequence. Infact a lot of anger in our society, a lot of anger, particularly in social media, the bullying, the abuse, the trolling, all that sort of stuff, I think often can be traced to the fact that the heavy users of social media are not getting their daily dose of human presence. They're not getting enough eye contact with people not being in the presence of other humans enough. They've traded off too much of that time in favour of technology time, and without even knowing where it comes from, they may get increasingly irritable, cranky, even angry, like a person who doesn't eat enough, gets hungry, and that produces negative emotions and so on. Well, we have a hunger. All of us have a hunger for social contact. Some have higher social needs than others. But we belong to a social species. We do need each other. And deprivation of time spent with each other is really unhealthy for us,
Sahil [00:15:32] Considering how much time we are spending by ourselves now do you feel there are certain things and a lot of people are taking this time to reflect and they have said that, you know, in the past year, a lot of people have taken a break and kind of realising what's really important to them. What are some of the things that people should be looking out for, especially when they're reflecting or introspecting? Because I don't think people know what to actually do with that time. What are some of the questions they should be asking themselves?
Hugh McKay [00:15:59] Yes, I think this is a golden opportunity for people to be saying, well, particularly in lockdown, to be saying, well, what do I think of my life at the moment? What really matters to me? What are the values that I regard as fundamental? What are my priorities when I think about how I normally spend my time? Is that how I want to spend my time? And underneath all of that, I think the reflection on am I kind enough? It's a lovely opportunity when we're a bit disconnected from people to think about how we've been going when we're more connected. In fact, I think this is a good opportunity to begin practising the daily discipline of as a kind of nightly reflection, to look back on the day and say, could I have handled that more kindly? Have I been a kind enough person? One of the things we know when people approach the end of their lives, that becomes a very big question for them. No one, no one has as the end approaches and no one in lockdown with all this time to reflect and introspect, no one is saying, you know, I wish I was busier. I wish I was making more money or, you know, and at the end of life, no one says that. No one says I'd wish I'd been busier. I wish I'd made more money. But people do say I wish I'd been kinder. I wish I'd been more loving partner or more loyal friend or a kind of neighbour to those people next door that I never even bothered to introduce myself to.
Sahil [00:17:25] Huda's neighbours are dickheads so I have to admit Hugh, sometimes you come across neighbours and you're like, nah mate! This this isn't working out. You're slightly racist. This is not going to work out. But I did have an important question. When you talk about compassion, a big issue with compassion is that a lot of compassion becomes conditional. It's not unconditional compassion where you do something and you do it because that's a value that you have, but because sometimes you expect something in return. And once you don't get it, you kind of feel like, oh, why did I do that? Why was that so nice to them if I didn't get it back? So how do you practise unconditional compassion, I guess, or if that's even a term?
Hugh McKay [00:18:02] Well, that's a well, yeah. Let's let's use the simpler word kindness, which is less complicated than compassion. I think of kindness as being the purest form of human love, because it's the I mean, all forms of human love are wonderful, romantic love is exciting and familial love is amazing. And the love of companions and friends sustains us. And -
Sahil [00:18:24] Food, love, food is great. Love food.
Hugh McKay [00:18:27] But kindness is the only form of human love that doesn't involve any emotion. It's the form of love that doesn't imply affection. We have this capacity to be kind to anyone, no matter how repugnant we may find them. We can still be that we can't love them in some other ways, but we can love them in this way. We can develop the discipline of saying human beings need harmonious societies in order to thrive. How do we cooperate with each other? By being kind and respectful towards each other just because we are in this thing together. Not because we like each other, not because we agree about politics or religion or art or culture or sport or anything else. But simply because we share this common humanity and we are together working on the project of creating a harmonious society. So in the case you're talking about, Sahil, if I'm kind to someone and they're not kind in return, so what? My kindness has still made the world a better place. That's that's what I'm trying to do here. I've still contributed to harmony, even if at the time I might have been rebuffed. It is not a transactional form of love. I mean, if your love is unrequited, when you go off and find someone else to fall in love with. But kindness is not transactional, I'm not being kind because I think I'll get something out of it. I'm not being kind in the hope that you'll be kind to me, I'm being kind because I realised that to be a fully flourishing, fully mature human being, I need to adopt kindness as my default position. That's my way of being in the world. I can terminate a relationship kindly. I can discipline a child kindly. If I walk down to the local shops tomorrow and I pass someone on the footpath and I just smile and say 'Hello' and they ignore me that's all right. I don't demand that they respond. And I might then notice that they actually had earbuds in and they didn't hear what I said.
Sahil [00:20:34] I generally pretend that they didn't hear me and I just walk facing my face the other way. But actually, on that, I think there's a very key point that this kindness doesn't have an emotion behind it, which I think made it really easy for me to understand, because I have to be honest with you, there's so many people talking about this stuff outside that I hate listening to most of them because they can't clearly explain it. We are in a world where self-love is such a big thing. It's all about self-love, self-love, and which I'll come to later. But I think kindness being without emotion was really good. And I think one of the big reasons that, you know, I always thought of it as a transactional value is because of the religion, the Catholocism idea of do kind to others so others can be kind to you. So it was always planted so early on that I was only kind to others so that others can then be kind to me. So it automatically had a condition and there's an emotion behind it, which is -
Huda [00:21:25] And they often say, treat others how you'd like to be treated. That's a very big one at the moment. That's kind of almost trending with people because, you know, and that's the way they justify why it's important to be kind. And that, I think, is a big flaw, because personally and this is Sahil and I both genuinely believe this, we do think that being kind for the sake of kindness is, you know, despite what the other person may feel or think and it's not just towards humans, it's towards animals and everything. And, you know, we practise that in our day to day life as much as we possibly can. And I think that, you know, we don't see it because we think, oh, this is this is something that will come back to us or it's karma or whatever it is. We do it because we think that it makes us humans better.
Hugh McKay [00:22:12] This makes the world a better place. I mean, there's another trend that's happening in the commercial world where people are saying in business, good ethics is good business. In other words, of, hey, basically this will improve the bottom line. I really hate that. Yeah. I mean, that's that's saying we will behave well because we'll make more profit out of us, to which the obvious response is but what if you didn't make more profit out of it? Would that mean you wouldn't behave? Well, it's absurd. You know, the idea that it's transactional is just absurd and cuts right across the idea of kindness as not just a virtue, but a fundamental way for humans to live.
Huda [00:22:53] And I guess one of the questions I really wanted to ask you is with teaching children that at such a young age, I think is the reason why some people may hold back from kindness or the reason why some people may feel discouraged or not as compelled to be as kind is because we're taught that it has to be transactional and therefore that is why we're doing it. What would you say, I guess, in terms of how we should bring society up? Because the future is our child - future children and you know, I think that right now it's the most important time to do it. Teaching children the concept of kindness. How do you think as a parent or a teacher or whatever it might be, we should do that.
[00:23:33] Actually both, it'll be great if you can comment on being at home and being at school as well. And how should...
Hugh McKay [00:23:39] Yes, I mean, the good news about this, I agree absolutely with what you're saying. The good news is I think a lot of schools are now very explicitly modelling kindness and teaching kindness. I picked up one of my young grandchildren from their school a couple of months ago, and they're on the board was a big sign saying 'Scatter kindness like confetti'. And I've seen the slogan Kindness Matters in other schools. And so even on those noticeboards. So I think there's a there's a movement in this direction. But I think as teachers or as parents, particularly as parents and even grandparents, when the children come home, instead of saying, did you have fun today or what did you learn today? I think we need to develop the habit to bring kindness into the language by saying, Who were you kind to today? What was the kindest thing you saw today? Just to make the discussion of kindness an integral part of our reflection on the day and to treat kindness as a good thing to have been, a good thing to have done to be praised. The first question won't be how many marks did you get in the maths test? The first question will be, did you remember to be kind to that person that you were feeling a bit cranky about yesterday?
Sahil [00:24:51] That's the one question Huda hates is how did he do on the maths test anyway?
Huda [00:24:55] I'm not really good at maths.
Sahil [00:24:58] One of the big things you talk about in one of your books are the 20 things we hide behind instead of, you know, really, truly advocating for kindness. And one that really stood out to me was victimhood and being a victim.
Hugh McKay [00:25:10] Yes.
Sahil [00:25:11] And I feel this current world is moving so rapidly towards that, like even today...s o I'm rehearsing for a play on Zoom and everyone starts the conversation by talking about how shit everything is for them. And it's this automatic subconscious thinking of I'm a victim and because I'm a victim, I'll be taken seriously, otherwise I won't be.
Hugh McKay [00:25:32] Well, it's a very strange phenomenon in our culture at the moment, and it's very closely tied to the obsession with identity that I'm special and different. And people aren't acknowledging that or I'm the victim of prejudice against people like me or whatever it might be. But all the way down to someone was really unkind to me yesterday and all the sort of stuff that your colleagues complain about at your online rehearsals. Now, the thing about victimhood is that it is really a hiding place from our true selves. It's a hiding place from our kind core because it sets up not just a defensive shield, but a feeling of hostility towards the world. Look how badly I've been treated. Look what terrible parents I have. Look at that awful boss who sacked me or look at that partner who dumped me or poor me. Now, one of the things about human beings, because we belong to this social species, our greatest need is to be heard, to be understood, to be acknowledged, to be appreciated, of course. So when we don't receive those things, we feel victimised by human kindness and so on. There's only one way out of that, and that is forgiveness. We need to forgive the person who wronged us and we are then released from the captivity of victimhood.
Sahil [00:26:55] OK, now you're really touching some nerves here. Kindness was fine but forgiveness is woaahhh!!
Huda [00:27:01] How dare you?
Sahil [00:27:01] That's a tough one.
Hugh McKay [00:27:04] Well, it's like apologies Sahil. You know, a lot of people find it really hard to apologise. I've hurt someone. I've offended someone. Why can't I just acknowledge that that person needs from me an apology? Because an apology is a statement that I take them seriously enough to have noticed that I've hurt them and to express my regret of having hurt them. And forgiveness is the same. Once I've apologised, I'm hoping, I suppose that that person will in turn say, look, that's fine, but let's forget it. Of course, I forgive you. And that releases me from the burden of victimhood. I mean, while we're talking about apologising and giving, we ought to talk about the third leg of the stool, which is listening. If you said to me, what is the kindest thing? What's the simplest thing we can do to improve the quotient of listening in our lives and to improve the quality of harmony in the neighbourhoods and communitie we move in, I would say sharpen up our listening skills, become more attentive and empathic listeners, even to people that we don't want to listen to. When someone wants to talk to you and you don't listen, then without putting it into words what you're saying to that person is, I'm sorry, I don't take you seriously enough to bother listening to you. I don't rate you as a full human entitled to my attention. But when you do listen, I think that's the most potent expression of kindness that we can offer each other. Because when I listen to you setting aside my own prejudices, my own concerns, not being distracted by all that stuff, but really listening to you, really attending empathically to what you are saying, the unspoken message is I take you seriously enough to bother listening to you. I've got to set aside my own concerns. I'm going to entertain your ideas. I might reject them. I might disagree violently with you when we move into this conversation. That's all right. But actually, I'm not qualified to disagree with you until I've actually got what you're trying to say. Really understand your point of view. Entering into your view of the world is what qualifies me to be entitled to disagree with you.
Huda [00:29:32] When you've said it now, I've kind of thought about it. And often times people kind of want to have their own say and they just want to butt in and they just don't want to pay attention. And I've I guess I've always kind of disliked that kind of quality or trait or whatever you want to call it in others. But I've never really, truly understood as to why and how selfish that actually is, because it's all about you. And that's the next thing I guess I was going to kind of segue into the fact that we are quite self-centred, and I think that that's a very difficult unless you're conscious of it and you're aware of how to change that sort of mentality, it's something that's kind of hard to get away from. So do you, I guess, have any...for people that I guess are prepared and willing to acknowledge it and then address it, what are some of the ways that you think we as if we're selfish or self-centred, how can we possibly change the narrative of that in our heads?
Hugh McKay [00:30:29] Well, first of all, I'd say that isn't what comes naturally to us. We do learn self centeredness and we are encouraged in that direction by the pressures of the happiness industry who tell us that our personal happiness is most important thing in the world or the marketing marketing industry that tells us, you know, we're not complete until we bought this brand of this product. And so there are a lot of pressures that push us in that individualistic direction. And of course, it is true that there is tension within all of us. There is tension between our sense of independence and our sense of interdependence. But you only have to reflect for a moment. And that's why something like a pandemic is a gift, really to us to encourage us to reflect on this, that the deepest truth about us is our interdependence, that we all exist in this shimmering, vibrating web of interconnectedness and interdependency. That's who we actually are. So when we find ourselves being absorbed with our own concerns, being selfish at the expense of other people, we just need to reminder: Hang on, I'm diminishing my own humanity by letting my sense of independence overwhelm the deeper sense of interdependence. And by the way, if we live a life, a self centred life, one of the things we can guarantee is that we will experience deep dissatisfaction. This does not bring fulfilment. And so we need to have it gently pointed out to us that if we could just shift the focus onto the needs of other people, if we could just focus a little bit more on how we might be able to help the old guy at the end of the street who might need a bit of assistance with his shopping or someone to mow his lawn or just focus on the needs of other people, then we soon learn that that's when we feel fully human. That's that's when we feel the connections, the engagement, the sense of belonging to a community.
Sahil [00:32:29] And talking about that, I'm I was listening to you, but my attention kept on going to forgiveness. One of the big things that we can do on a personal level, even during this lockdown where we're trying to reflect and go...'there are certain people, I could just forgive'. The one thing that I found that goes around a lot is as soon as someone asks for forgiveness, people think they're wrong, that that person is wrong, rather than identifying that now that person is asking for forgiveness. So that just means that, you know, we have to separate the idea that they might be wrong, because as soon as we say that, then we identify them as someone who's wrong. And that's that's suddenly a bad thing. So you truly can't forgive. And that, I find, is very interesting, especially with a cancel culture. Now we have a big cancel culture. So you don't like someone, if someone did something wrong 30 years ago, we go cancel them. We don't want them. And that person might ask for forgiveness, but we just don't give it to them. So, of course, you start thinking as a community that does this thing even work? Can we actually forgive?
Hugh McKay [00:33:27] Well, of course, when someone asks for forgiveness, they are admitting that there's some healing that needs to happen. I mean, I you can't really separate apologising and forgiving because there's a symmetrical relationship between them. If I've wronged you, then I need to apologise to you, because there I'm admitting that I've done something wrong, if you forgive me, that's acknowledging that I've admitted my wrongdoing. And nevertheless, you're forgiving me. The cancel culture, of course, discourages forgiveness. It says doesn't matter what what you've done, how much you might have apologised for what you've done, Sorry, I'm not a generous enough person to forgive you. That's the very opposite of kindness. That's the very opposite of the generous human nature of which we are all capable and it diminishes us. It's a very ugly trend. I don't mean that we should continue to treat people as heroes who we discover have behaved badly in the past. But everybody's behaved badly, some more badly than others. But we always need to look at the total picture and the total context in which people have operated to recognise that all of us are frail, all of us have erred. And sometimes that's because of the era that we lived in or the social context that led us to behave in that way. I mean, what what is going on at the moment, particularly amongst some of the most strident leaders of the cancel culture, what's going on now even in their own lives, they're going to look terrible 30 years from now. I mean, one of the things that's going to happen is people are going to say that was very intolerant. That was people who seemed to have a very narrow focus and not to be very generous in understanding the context in which these things happen. So I think you're right in saying, you know, there's a there is at the moment a culture of not forgiving even if people do apologise or where we might have reasons to forgive because of a deeper understanding of the whole picture. That's, again, part of what we were talking about earlier, of the culture of individualism, the culture of selfishness, the culture of I'm right, look at me, I'm special. I get this. You don't get it. You're wrong. Now, that's characteristic of a lot of people with particular religious beliefs, with particular political convictions or other cultural positions that they're so confident of the rightness of their position. They can't imagine ever having to apologise for anything or ever having to accommodate other views that might raise doubts about the thing they're so convinced of.
Huda [00:36:04] I think one of the things that I often whenever someone sort of says, oh, you know, that person asked for forgiveness, you know, I often can say, yeah, you know, like it's good that they've asked for forgiveness. I think the problem also sometimes comes down to this. There's a couple of things. I just want to address them. And, you know, we don't have to go into depth about them because I guess at the end of the day, we can never know someone's true intention. However, a lot of the time people are sorry because they've been caught out, which I think is a big one. And then you've got people that are sorry because they just they know that they've done something wrong, but they're not truly sorry. And they just want to kind of, you know, get it over and done with. And they know that that's the quick way out. And I think that that's one of the issues that we face when it comes to a genuine apology. We can never know people's intentions. Our job is just, you know, give them the benefit of doubt.
Sahil [00:36:53] So even if it's an inauthentic apology, like if you feel the apology is not authentic, then there's no forgiveness from your side, right?
Huda [00:37:01] Well, I feel like I feel like if it's not authentic, that's it's hard to forgive someone. And that's what I'm asking, I guess Hugh to be like, well, what do you do in a circumstance where you feel as if someone's apology is not authentic.
Sahil [00:37:15] Ooo tough one?
Hugh McKay [00:37:17] It is a tough one and it's a very harsh call. Isn't it? A very harsh judgement to make of someone who has apparently apologised to say, actually, I don't think you're sincere. I don't think this is... I don't think you really mean it. I think you're just going through the motions in the hope of being let off the hook or you're only - as you said before, you're only apologising because you've been found out and this is a bit unconvincing. Well, I think our innate kindness should lead us to say if the apology is half hearted, if the apology is insincere or is only being given because the person was found out, they know that they have to live with it. We don't have to make that judgement. They have to live with their own sense of shame or guilt about that and work it out in some way. I don't think it's up to us to say I judge your motives to be impure. I mean, we've seen even the national apology that was given by Prime Minister Rudd to members of the Stolen Generations. I mean, was that a sincere apology? It hasn't been followed through by much action that would demonstrate real remorse about that. Was it the result of long and complex negotiation with the people that we were going to be apologised to? Apparently not. There is such a thing as a glib apology. It's better than nothing. And it's just that. Yeah, but as a culture, we're still waiting I think for a different kind of apology, particularly to the peoples of our First Nations. And then ultimately, perhaps we might even hope that when such an apology is given, because apology is just just the words is often not enough. And if someone says I love you, but they don't treat you very well, the words seem they don't ring true. They...it seems like a hollow statement. You don't act as if you love me. Well, if you apologise to someone, but there is no sense of remorse or no desire to make reparations, then it does seem like a hollow apology and forgiveness is less likely to be forthcoming. I mean, we can dream of the day when representatives of the Australian indigenous population will forgive in response to an apology. There's no sign of any of that on our immediate horizon.
Sahil [00:39:35] Well, Hugh I have this new theory, an idea that I think you should put in your next book. That now when I say I love you to someone, which I don't very often now, I always want to add I love you for this or because of this, because that actually creates a precedent. And it's more specific because some people just love you for the money and that ok, but just say that. And it would be ...not that people would say that, but that's what I mean when people aren't being authentic about saying those things. But I did want to come to the indigenous community aspect of it because I moved here eight years ago and I had no idea what the Stolen Generation was. I never studied about it because I was born and brought up in India. The whole idea of now every time, especially in theatres, in big communities, we always think about the land that we are standing on. Right. And we are giving that respect. I guess it's really tough because who are we as non-indigenous people? and how do we quantify their trauma and say, are we ever going to be forgiven or what is a true apology? Like you just said. And I do feel right now there's so much focus on that if you don't say anything about it, especially in the art sector. If I don't say the land I'm standing on, suddenly you hated for it. And it's because, well, I don't understand it truly in my core, so I'm not going to say it. But then that means that people take offence to the fact that I don't care enough about indigenous communities. And because you've done your research on Australia over the past 30, 40 years, how much of that research was based on indigenous communities? And is there something that that needs to be learnt from their culture that we should take in that will probably make this issue slightly better to deal with? Because right now I feel like we just there's a lot of anger and heat.
Huda [00:41:24] And trying to make up for it in ways that may not really matter.
Sahil [00:41:28] Yeah, because that's all we are trying to do all the time is trying to make up.
Hugh McKay [00:41:31] Yes, well, that's right. I mean, we've spent billions of dollars. We've had many, many enquiries, investigations, recommendations, royal commissions, all kinds of things. Yet we're still so far from true reconciliation. The response, the political response to the Uluru's statement from the heart, which was very dismissive, was obviously offensive and inadequate. I think of the acknowledgement of country that you're referring to where the beginning of a meeting, someone will acknowledge that we're on native land and so I think of that it's sometimes tokenistic. But generally speaking, I think it is a genuine attempt on the part of non-indigenous Australians to say we have become aware of the fact that we stole this land. We can't do any we can't reverse it, but we can at least acknowledge it. We can acknowledge that that's the case, that this was indigenous country or whatever it is and still is. I heard an amusing thing about that. People in those statements of country often say, and I pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. Apparently in indigenous culture, there is absolutely no concept of emerging elders
Sahil [00:42:42] That is a totally non-indigenous concept for sure.
Hugh McKay [00:42:45] That's right. So past and present makes sense, but emerging. So that's an example of, you know, put it crudely, I suppose, white insensitivity, really getting in the culture. But still, I think if you said, well, should we just forget all that give up making these acknowledgement of country? No, I think it's inappropriate. It can be overdone so that it does seem tokenistic. And sometimes at a conference you know, we have an indigenous person who offers a welcome to country and then the chair of the session makes an acknowledgement of country and introduces someone who then makes an acknowledgement of country who introduces this country. And I think that just becomes a little bit ludicrous.
Huda [00:43:26] There was something I wanted to go back to, and I say it's something you've kind of said, and it's something we've often, I guess, talked about as well. It's the concept of happiness. Before we go ahead, I would like to ask you, Hugh, how you define happiness?
Sahil [00:43:39] What's Professor Mckay's definition of happiness and what's the indicator for it?
Hugh McKay [00:43:44] Yes, I think of happiness as one emotion amongs the whole spectrum of human emotions that is possibly the most fleeting of those emotions associated with feelings of euphoria, bliss, joy, etc., which will inevitably pass, I think, of happiness as a state that we can be lulled into. We can enjoy. It's a pleasant state. We like it. It has almost nothing to teach us about what it means to be human. And in fact, it would make no sense at all if we didn't also experience sadness. And one of the things we know is that sadness, disappointment, loss, crisis. These are the things that teach us the important lessons about what it means to be humans. It's the idea that the pursuit of personal happiness is a suitable strategy for living is an idea that I'm very keen to dispel. I feel that that feeds into a very egotistical culture. It leads us to think that if I'm not feeling happy, there's something wrong with me that's in fact driven the drug culture. People say I'm entitled to feel happiness, I've got a short cut, I swallow this pill or I smoke this substance or something and I feel happy. Well, I mean nothing wrong with that. I'm not against happiness. But one of the things we know about we humans is that when we are not happy, I don't mean when we're sad, but when we're not happy we tend to make better judgements. We tend to engage more openly in debate and conversation with other people. When we are happy our judgement is often impaired, like falling in love. There is an example of reasonably prolonged period of happiness...
Sahil [00:45:36] Honeymoon period,
Hugh McKay [00:45:37] Yeah, the honeymoon period. We're not at our best in terms of making rational judgements. I mean you go into a department store and they've sprayed perfume in the air and the soft carpet and they're playing music. Is that to sharpen you up so you'll make smarter purchase decisions? No, that's to make you feel happy, to make you feel relaxed. So your guard is down.
Sahil [00:45:59] It's like the casinos in all gambling places. There are no clocks and they're continuously-.
Huda [00:46:05] And no windows.
Sahil [00:46:05] Yeah, no windows. And they have the air conditioner on throughout the whole time.
Hugh McKay [00:46:09] That's right. So I think we've got to put happiness in its place. Happiness is lovely when it occurs to us, but let's not go in search of it. I mean, one of the things that ancient wisdom in every culture tells us, if you pursue happiness, it will elude you. That is not a suitable goal for life. It's a happy accident. It's a lovely thing that happens when it happens and it has no more significance. In fact, as a teacher, it has less significance than many of the other emotions.
Sahil [00:46:38] And going to that Hugh what it felt like when you were talking about, you know, people make better decisions when they are 'unhappy'
Hugh McKay [00:46:46] Just not happy.
Sahil [00:46:47] Or not.
Huda [00:46:49] Not Happy. Justt depressed. Which also by the way you do make bad decisions when you're very upset as well, so.
Hugh McKay [00:46:55] Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes.
Sahil [00:46:57] What I did think about while you were saying that is the idea of purpose. And I feel like that's especially because for a lot of people who are ambitious, both of us are. We always want to go for something. Right? We want to have a goal. We are a goal driven society. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We should be. But the goal should be purpose driven. And I feel like if kindness can be a purpose and really working towards each business or whatever you do in your life towards kindness, that could actually lead to a happier life, I guess, and more moments of-
Hugh McKay [00:47:29] A more satisfying life, I think, as well. I'd say. I mean, life, life satisfaction, the sense a sense of a meaningful life, a whole life. It's a very interesting research about what gives our life meaning and purpose and what makes us happy. For example, for parents, being a parent is a rich source of meaning and purpose in a person's life. But it's not always a source of happiness. It's sometimes a very extreme irritation.
Sahil [00:47:57] Please mention that a couple of times
Hugh McKay [00:48:00] In fact, there's some interesting research. Its a Harvard research study a few years ago showed the parents are at their happiest when they're away from their kids and yes, we we thrive when we are purpose driven, when our lives have a sense of meaning and purpose and happiness is not it. Happiness is just a lucky accident that happens along the way, striving for that sense of meaning and purpose in our lives. That comes from, for example, saying, 'Well, I'm here to make the world a better place. And the way I'm going to make the world a better place is by acting kindly towards everyone'. That's going to be my way of being in the world. That's going to be my framework. That's my default position. I'm a I'm a kind person. And so I've got to act like that. When people dream of a better world, they never dream of a world that is more violent, less compassionate, more competitive, less kind, less respectful. When you dream of a better society, you dream of a better Australia you think of a society that will be less violent, less competitive, less materialistic, less cynical, less judgemental, more tolerant, more compassionate, more respectful. The only way we're going to make that dream come true is by each of us individually living as if it is that kind of society. And the starting point is to live kindly.
Huda [00:49:22] And I think that that's the most perfect note to end on.
Sahil [00:49:26] Yeah, I don't think -
Huda [00:49:27] I feel like I want to ask more. However, I feel like you've literally just nailed it.
Sahil [00:49:31] And I think it's going to lead to the same answer.
Huda [00:49:34] Hugh's going to be like I told you this earlier, just be kind.
Sahil [00:49:36] Yeah. But be kind and not talk about it on social media. That's the one that really bothers me.
Hugh McKay [00:49:41] Oh, yes. Don't brag about your kindness.
Huda [00:49:44] I love that.
Sahil [00:49:45] Clear distinction Hugh.
Huda [00:49:48] The amount of times you see people that are like, oh, I did this today that was very kind. And it's almost like you're only saying this because you want people to know you did it so that they like you more.
Hugh McKay [00:49:58] Yes, but we don't want to be prey. It's not a dramatic thing. Yes, we don't we don't deserve praise for being kind.
Huda [00:50:06] On that note, I also want people to know that the reason I said that is because you can post the #kindness revolution. But that's his new book. It's worth reading just to you know, especially during this time when we have the time. So we can't complain later saying we don't have the time.
Huda [00:50:22] And also no one told us. Yeah, because we told you.
Sahil [00:50:25] Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, just have a read. And even if it's a few pages a day, I think there'll be some wisdom from Hugh for the past... how many years now you've been doing this work Hugh?
Hugh McKay [00:50:35] Oh 60!
Sahil [00:50:36] 60 years. So the man's got something to say. Yeah, that's probably good information for you.
Hugh McKay [00:50:42] Thank you very much for that. It's been a lovely conversation.
Huda [00:50:45] Thank you so much for your time here. It was awesome talking to you.
Hugh McKay [00:50:48] Thanks very much to both of you. Thank you.