Unveiling the Gaps: PE Challenges in Irish Schools

Music. Hey everybody, welcome to our first episode of 2025, where again we're going to try and take a slightly deeper look at coaching and see if we can find ways that we can all do it a little bit better.

Today's episode is slightly different in that, you know, this is a conversation I've been meaning to have for quite a long time and I'm delighted to have got two people who are really well placed to give a good judgment on it. And that's talking about the PE curriculum in Ireland and particularly in national schools.

I'm joined by two brothers, Stephen and Peter Lavin, the two of the brothers behind Game Sense Coaching, which is a huge resource for all GA coaches out there that I'm sure many will be familiar with. But the two lads are also principals and teaching principals who are passionate about PE and physical activity amongst their students and in their own lives.

So we have a really interesting conversation, at least I think it's really interesting, about, you know, how the government are able to provide the money for hot school lunches, for STEM, for everything else. And yet we don't have a situation in Ireland where primary schools are given a grant for PE. They don't have a grant to buy mats for gymnastics. They don't have a grant to buy hula hoops. They don't have a grant to pay for specialized coaches to come in and teach

athletics or gymnastics or so on. So it's a very interesting conversation where I learned a lot because I didn't know a lot of the stuff that the lads were telling me about. So I'm sure you'll pick up some bits and pieces out of it as well. It's an interesting one for anybody who has kids in the school system or is a teacher or PE teacher or anybody with a passing interest in sport and physical activity.

If we want to get our country a little bit healthier and happier in the next 20 years, it's a long, slow burner that starts with maybe the physical education that we learn in school. So I hope you enjoy. And before you do, just as always, and I mentioned it at the end of the podcast. These are obviously to help coaches and parents and athletes, but also to try and raise a few bob for Louise Quill and the Ternanog Foundation in Tanzania.

And again, I talk about it at the end of the podcast, and you've probably heard me mention it before. If you do find value in that podcast, make sure you find the link in my podcast description or on my social media and contribute anything that you can. It goes directly to Louise and the gang in Ternanog. So hope you enjoy.

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Okay so um welcome lads it's i think this might be my first time having two people on at one time which is a a big expansion for for me so hopefully we do it justice how are you getting on good thanks mike school's all wrapped up thankfully done and dusted done and dusted yeah are you both principals or teachers primary school secondary school both both uh primary school principles but both teaching principles mike so you don't have the benefits of the legs up in the office desk at this time of

the year we get we get one day like that you know so yeah we get one day we get one day a week mike it's it's an admin day so one day a week you get to take care of all the administration stuff and then the other four days you you you teach basically yeah okay yeah which which uh isn't a whole pile of time for administration stuff but listen i suppose the the reason we're here is obviously I would have talked spoke to you last year Stephen and we had a great chat specifically around

the whole area of of Game Sense and and and the website that she started and and how that's going and we might just check in on that and then today we we spoke you know based on both of your your your occupations I suppose in in that kind of teaching space about something that I'd be very passionate about in terms of physical education and.

Where we see that now currently and maybe where we'd like to see that going. I think it's a big area that's not too dissimilar from obviously the coaching stuff, but it's a huge area that you probably have a nice insight into too given your roles at the moment, you know? Just from my standpoint, P can jump in at any time here, Mike.

I would see it as one of the biggest issues of our time at the minute, like in terms of providing a full, rich PE curriculum for younger children in schools across the country. And obviously, it depends from school to school.

Context might be different from different schools. But like from my opinion, and I'd be very into the sports and in all sports, It's not just, I would see the primary PE curriculum as failing the kids in the country at the minute myself. Okay. Give me a little bit of, give me something there in particular that you see as a big fall. Well, like, so we get, there's like, right now might currently, and it might change down, there's one hour timetable for PE a week for children in Ireland.

And in other countries, we'd say maybe France, they might get maybe three times as much as Ireland gets. England's twice as much. Portugal, maybe two and a half times as much. So other schools clearly place a higher priority on getting kids active during the week in school. For us, it's one hour a week, Mike. And the second thing that I feel strongly about this one is most schools in Ireland, Mike, roughly 60 to 70% of schools are like the schools myself and Pete work in there.

The teacher, it's the principal is the teacher. So what you might have in a lot of those schools are coupled classes. So you might have third and fourth as one class. and there's a very high likelihood that you might have 25 plus kids. Like last year, we had a class with 39 kids in it because we know the choice but to group the classes that way.

So we're then expecting one teacher who may not have much experience or qualifications in actually getting across P or coaching P or teaching P to handle 39 children and provide an experience that transmits the benefit to most of those kids. I would say if you went from school to school across the country, that would be more the norm you know than the exception that kids are not getting as much education in terms of PE or access to PE as they could yeah,

Where are you with that, Pete? Are you seeing something similar or are you along different lines? Yeah, I think, Mike, just in terms of the time is a massive thing. So, you know, if you want to teach your PE lesson during the week, like, you know, you can either do an hour or you can structure it into two 30-minute lessons.

So, and that's tough in itself as well. Like Steve was saying, it's three times as much in France, you know, and kids by their nature are not designed to sit down, you know, in school for, you know, five or six hours.

You know, you'd like regular breaks, whether it be movement breaks, but ideally you'd like more PE time because once they're physically active, you can literally see once they come back into the class from PE, you know, their concentration span has improved and you can get more work done with them during the lesson or during the day itself, you know? Yeah. And, you know, my wife is a primary school teacher. And when I regularly start this discussion at home, what I get is.

You know, well, we got to cover the maths, we got to cover the reading, the writing, everything.

Like it's a huge laundry list of things that you know they have to tick off and everything is planned out now as maybe it wasn't as such or as as stringently required a number of years ago now everything is is planned out meticulously so your hours and your time is far more allocated maybe than it was like that that point about being allocated more time is probably is probably a key part of it really isn't it well and then might being consistent in

enforcing the time so like is the principal going to be consistent in asking the staff to give the kids access to PE like an awful lot of schools I would imagine Mike don't have great facilities for PE you know but I think the first step is you have to give the kids access to the time you know a genuine time and like I'd have strong thoughts as well about how we help schools enforce PE a bit better than we can like asking one teacher to to effectively

teach PE to a massive group of kids like if you coach GA Mike say if you're coaching the under 11 team like or even the under seven teams imagine one coach trying to deal with and in in primary school you're four and five year olds imagine one coach trying to deal with 30 plus kids and it'd be a disaster and yet this is what we expect teachers to be able to handle with mike it has to be said in college like minimal enough training in terms of on

how to deal with this you know so to me it's a colossal issue like and one that's just constantly ignored by by government really over the last i don't know however many years you know You know. I recall Michael Martin talking to, I think it was the boys, an off-the-ball about this. And in fairness, he was pressed and he acknowledged they need to do better.

But I'm teaching 25 years, Mike, and I have never seen one ounce of pro-PE talk from any minister or any person in political power. It's amazing. And when you see the number of, I think the WHO has Ireland, that one in four or five kids now that are overweight or obese... And this is still not something that we're absolutely hammering home at primary school, Pete. It's just, it kind of, you'd wonder why, like why we're spending so much time on all the other stuff, which is important, of course.

But this is one of those lifelong things that we want to give kids something from the very early years all the way until they're old enough to continue to do it. And we're not maybe pushing it as well as you guys are articulating that we should be. A hundred percent, Mike. But like we said, there was back in, I think it might've been 2019 or so, or in around that date, like, you know, that the Move Well, Move Often program was introduced into primary schools.

But even in terms of the training that primary schools got, like currently at the moment, schools are closing in order to get their, you know, for a day in order to get their maths training for the new curriculum.

And it was the same last year for English. but in terms of the move well move often it was one or possibly two representatives from schools depending on the size of the school who were asked to come along for the day itself in order to train so then when you're taking that message back the message gets diluted straight away you know so there's no consistency like whereas probably what should have been done is pretty much the same approach as they're taken

to english and mass like you know you would have got a huge buy-in and it would have had a greater impact you know yeah yeah it only that only makes sense though yeah If you're serious about rolling it out properly, you're going to do it with everybody and make sure that everybody has the skills to be able to carry out that program as best as they possibly can.

It's strange to see that lack of emphasis on something that we're all saying is hugely important.

And not just us, we're obviously invested in sport, but everybody from, like I mentioned, the obesity statistics, the inactivity or the reduced physical activity, particularly in girls as they hit those kind of teenage years and we're saying even the nutrition side of it and and again i'm conscious i hear my wife giving out to me when i'm saying about this but like how important that stuff would be as a part of your p curriculum that we

could start to integrate even into primary school steve yeah like mike just to give the listeners a sample okay so right now the government is rolling out it's called free hot hot meals for schools all right mike now there are schools in the country where this would be a great initiative for okay my school does not need that initiative in my opinion it's a waste of money for my school and i think there's a lot of schools where it's and it's about mike at the minute it's 120 million.

They're spending on this to roll this out for an awful lot of schools that I feel don't need it you know I mean there's absolutely you'd call them desh schools in Ireland Mike like no problem there of course there'd be kids who need and vulnerable kids who'd need that and we want to take care of them but for the vast majority of schools they don't need this that's 120 million a year we give out free books Mike so there's a free book scheme but prior to

the free book scheme like most schools would run what's called a book rental scheme where it would only have cost the parents 30 euros a year to get all the books that the kids are going to use you know in the younger classes you may have you may have had to buy more and that Mike's around 50 million a year and then Mike for the last five or six years we've had an IT grant in this school we get about eight eight and a half thousand it's depending on the amount depends on

the amount of pupils you have but that's another 50 million a year so the government is happy to pump massive money into these other areas and yet like to me the cost benefit of really pushing PE in schools like the long-term savings in terms of health outcomes for kids if we get them on the path to any sport would be colossal in the long run and it but it would take that investment now in my opinion but the cost benefit afterwards later on down the line i feel would be huge like

and ireland is a small enough country so we had we could have a real chance in this country to do something that would would be a kind of a standard bearer world setter for for the rest of the world to follow you know yeah Yeah. Those hot lunches, those hot lunches get me going as well. Yeah, yeah. Again, go back to my wife. They're in a dash school and they absolutely need hot lunches. They would have set up a breakfast club to feed kids who were coming in.

And, you know, there was a requirement, absolutely. And there's other schools that I know that are getting those lunches. They most certainly do not need those lunches. Funnily enough, are both of your schools getting those? Yep, yep. And are either of you dash school?

As far as i know it's it's it's coming in next year for every next year for the whole of the the schools around ireland like like my base based on what steve was saying as well in terms of, talking about the resources being spent on whether it be it and whether it be free free lunches like, i in all my time of being a teaching principal like you know we've never got a pe grant as such you know so steve might talk a little bit more about we'll

say what discretionary spending is But if you're talking about even promoting PE, you know, and you need resources, obviously, as well to promote PE. And, you know, we get no PE grants, like, you know, which is unbelievable when you think about it, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like, it's what it is, Mike, is every school gets a certain amount of funding, you know, and some specific funding. And so, say, if we get IT funding, you have to spend that money in IT.

And if you're ever audited or wherever, you know, you have to show, look, this is what we spent it on, et cetera, et cetera. But what you get to spend on PE basically is whatever's left over after the start of the year. Now, I am mad into PE, so I make it my business to spend money on PE equipment, you know. And there's like, there's an organization in Limerick called the Limerick Sports Partnership who are excellent, I think.

And if you attend some of their courses, they'll send you out equipment. Like, so we've gotten brilliant badminton equipment from them. We've got handball equipment from them. We've got golf equipment from them just by going and doing the courses, you know.

So like, but that's the Limerick Sports Partnership that I think it's an NGO.

Mike so they're brilliant to work with so but like only for me having a great interest in it and my staff or sound any one of them will go to the course we wouldn't have gotten that equipment and then I'd had I would have had to invest money which I probably wouldn't have Mike to spend on PE you know so like other principals PE might be at the top of their list yeah you know because they've so much else going on or whatever but only

for myself and Pete have a huge interest in it that we spend a lot of time and then we invest in equipment for the schools Yeah. And it's like that one before you'd see, you know, a Kerry guy go up to Kilkiddy and suddenly football would become a part of their PE curriculum above there or whatever. It shouldn't be dependent on you or Pete or any other principals who have a passion for sport and physical activity to go into the school.

And just because you're there now, suddenly physical activity has a bigger part to play. It should be right across the board in every school and regardless of the principal or the teachers is my point I think that should be and that's the point you're making that it should be part of the hours that are allocated to you for everything else.

I'll make a quick point on that Mike and Pete can come in on this one as well afterwards I don't do Mike any GAA for PE, okay because they and most of the boys in my school like we have after schools training where I take the fifth and sixth for after school so I go by the coming in the month school calendar which is football in the first half of the year Hurland in the second so we do all our training for fifth and sixth then I do

after schools for third and fourth as well then we run blitzes during break time for Gaelic football and Hurland for fifth and sixth from third all the way up to sixth. So they get tons of Gaelic football and they get tons of hurling. That's loads for me, you know. What we try and do in the PE curriculum is because there's a number of strands, Mike, like athletics. We try and dedicate a six-week block to athletics. Gymnastics, they get swimming.

There's dance, you know. So we try and there's games as well and games outside of Gaelic football or hurling or, you know, our soccer, Mike. I never do soccer either because they play it all the time at break, you know. So I think myself, and Pete might come in on this, is you need to expose or try to expose children to as many sports as possible because I firmly believe there is a sport for everyone. You know, and if you throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick.

And if you set a child on a path to staying at one sport for life, you have given them a gift, you know, not only for their wellness, for their mind, for their body, for their health, it's a gift you're giving them. And I think that should be the primary aim of PE in Ireland is can we get as many kids on a path to some sport for as long as possible, you know? Yeah, but you're trying to make them physically active for life, Mike. You know, that's hopefully where they are in primary school.

Like, you know, you're hoping that you can add to that journey. So I don't know if most schools would have it, but the ideal is you have your P.E. planned for the year.

So basically your PE plan, all your strands, games, aquatics, dance, athletics, gymnastics, outdoor and adventure, they're all, we'll say, whether it be up on a staff notice board and you all also have your fundamental movement skill associated with each strand as well.

So the child is getting exposure to all of the different strands because you will have some children who absolutely love PE by the time they leave primary school because they did games for the whole six or seven years or whatever amount of time they're in primary school. And the teacher just threw in a ball and said, okay, where do you go and play?

And then you'll have some who are absolutely allergic because they weren't exposed to, it might be, whether it be athletics, which is, you know, might be a more individual sport and they might thrive in that. So having a PE plan is essential to any school. Yeah. And the broadness of it is a great point. Like, sure, the GEA or the basketball or soccer or rugby, depending on where you are, all those traditional games, they're getting exposed to those all the time.

But it's that that idea of you know the dance and the aquatics and being able to swim and whatever whatever it is if they never play a competitive sport just the fact that they are somebody that likes the idea of being physically active and and engaging in sport in some capacity is is is the thing it's just yeah it's hard it's hard to try and squeeze all that in lads in in 60 minutes in a in a week oh no fact and like but you could look at it this way like like you know

you could still like so what happens in an awful lot of schools as well as we'll say the GAA and we'll send in a local coach and they'll go through and like that's great you know if that's one of your PE lessons but let's get another one in as well where we're sticking to a strand like gymnastics and if you need to get in an outside coach for gymnastics go but you get no funding for that you know you get no funding to get in an athletics coach Mike you know

I mean my obvious solution would be Mike that there should be a dedicated PE teacher assigned to a certain amount of schools in Ireland like you know and I think there's around 3,300 schools in Ireland Mike Like, can we get seven, eight hundred teachers? Or it'd probably be about a thousand because you'd have some quite large schools, you know. And there's a full time PE teacher and they work with the teacher. So there's two people trying to handle the PE class instead of one.

We can split. We can differentiate. We can spend a bit more time with the kids who need it. You know, we have a rich curriculum. We expose them to a lot of different sports, different games, you know, different strands. And then it's a far, well, in my brain, it's a no brainer. It's a far richer experience for them in school, you know. So, I mean, I think that's the road that you should be going down.

And you talk to Athletics Ireland, you talk to whatever it's called, Gymnastics Ireland, you source people who would have an interest in becoming, you make the courses available in the different universities around the country. I would say you get huge buy-in from it because there's tons of people out there who'd love to know how to coach kids or take part and become full-time PE teachers, you know, in primary schools, you know. To me, that's the way to do it.

Yeah, well, it's probably not feasible to, you know, put more load on the teachers that are already maybe struggling to tick all the boxes that they have to, you know, tick already.

But like, to me, that makes perfect sense, Pete, like to have, depending on the size of the schools, the way I did it as a GDA blow here, I used to go to so many schools doing that Gaelic football that you were talking about earlier, Stephen, like that you would have somebody doing that as the equivalent with all sports.

Like that only that that can only make sense because the expertise is now with somebody who's coming into your school they're delivering a pre a p curriculum in the way that you spoke about pete in something that's planned we're now doing six weeks of of dance or six weeks of whatever.

And and now they're rotating around through all the schools so they have loads of work to do the prince the the school teachers aren't as overburdened as as they might feel that they are.

And the kids are getting a far richer experience in all the different sports by somebody who's very competent and qualified in the area in which they're delivering but i'd say mike just in terms of what steven was saying like you know if you have two it's the same as coaching if you have two people you know with children for an hour like you know if you have someone who's recognized as being very good at athletics like you know it might allow also your your teacher to

even assess the children in terms of their fundamental movement skills so yeah because imagine a primary school teacher you have to take care of okay i need to figure out the warm-up what my first game is okay and what's the learning objective okay what my second game is learning objective okay maybe i might do a warm on warm down and in the meantime i have to look at what say certain children's fundamental movement skills and i might be missing out on others as well so having two in one

p lesson would be a huge advantage you know yeah and it would maybe keep some teachers away from going to dubai or australia or somewhere else if if something as.

Attractive as this kind of a new exciting job was around the place and for primary schools no it's just you have to wonder Mike what are the priorities you know of of the people in charge like of our politicians you know like you know like the bang for buck you'd get out of a substantial investment in PE for this country would be colossal you know but yet the money for the school lunches it's there like that the money for IT it's there like that I don't know is there anybody lobbying for PE in

primary schools Mike you know that like I have no idea but like the the will to do something about it you know, is obviously not there. You know, I saw Norma Foley talking to Davy Fitzgerald about this. You know, I mean, I don't know what experience Davy Fitzgerald has with the primary P curriculum, but like Norma, the first job would be talk to the people here who have experience in this and get their take in it. Come up with a plan here.

Let's get step by step incremental. Where can we make progress on this? You know, and let's get investment here. You know that to me, You know, that's obvious. But, you know, again, I probably I'm coming from the P hat side of things, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And even a knock on like, again, it's not it's you're not getting votes.

Obviously, you're not thinking as a as a politician here. Now, this is this is about votes in the short term and and in terms of the benefit that this would have on our health system in 25 years time or 20 years time. Well, the people that put this in place today or tomorrow may not get the recognition or the kudos that they might do by giving out hot dinners now. It's a longer term kind of a visual. Politics is a short term game, Mike.

It is. It is. That's like it's like coaching, unfortunately. Tell me, tell me just on that and I'll kind of move on a little bit. But just this is one that always kind of rears its head with is when we talk about one hour a week there for PE. And I see it, my twin boys are in second year now, actually. And in first year, they were in a big secondary school down here, a great school, really well run, everything excellent. And they were getting one hour of, same thing, one hour of PE a week.

Often it was the first class to go if there was stuff on the hall or something else, or maybe we'd go for a walk or we'd watch a video. But it wasn't really treated with the kind of positioning that you would expect. But then when I go and I look, and this isn't anything about anybody who's religious or doing a language or whatever, but there was maybe two hours or maybe more of religion. There was a couple other hours of other stuff.

There was a couple other hours, which is fine. And they all have to be ticked. But even when we get to secondary school, which is obviously beyond where you are now, this is still an issue in 12, 13, 14-year-olds, Pete, that they're going into these big schools now and it's still the same thing all the way up that ladder. Yeah, and sometimes, Mike, there's a bit of a disconnect between what we do in primary school and what we do in secondary school as well.

Like, you know, so maybe the secondary school teachers might know exactly what we're trying to do in primary school and the primary school teachers might know exactly what they do in secondary school. Now, I will say based on, you know, what Steve had said earlier on, like you do have organizations like the PEAI from the secondary side of things and the IPPEA from the primary side of things who do advocate and who try to provide a voice as regards to quality of PE.

Now, whether they're all listened to or not, I don't really know. You know, it's all about being listened to, like, you know, but there probably could be more connection between primary and secondary because sometimes secondary teachers might say, oh, they're coming in and they're not even being able to run.

Now at this stage but like i said earlier on you know if you have one person in a class of as steve said 39 last year like you know how can you you know assess every single child you know it's very very hard and and in terms of that idea pete with the with the putting in these these we'll say for all the world primary school p teachers who would share a number of schools and and would work on the curriculum and deliver the curriculum in that kind of way do you

would you see something like that as as. Being as beneficial. Yeah, it'd be absolutely massive for a primary school because you would take the load off with, say, primary teachers in terms of other subjects, because we have so many subjects to teach now, it's very, very hard to get them all in. But at the same time, you would also be able to upskill as a teacher.

So if you were listening to a person who might be more qualified, so whether that person left your school and it was time for a movement break with the children, you yourself would naturally feel upskilled and be able to take a certain amount of movement breaks with children you know yeah yeah like my piece piece works for the pdst it's called it and now and like p would run p workshops and and obviously teachers can attend these and

they'd be in a whole range of things they'd be in dance outdoor pursuits games etc etc but it's all voluntary so whoever shows up are the people who have an interest you know and it's it's like it's not the many it's the few who show up like you know so it's a small difference that pete's making with that and like I think either do great work, the PDST do great work but again it's just it's too small, it's too small an impact like in our school Mike it's timetabled in twice a

week so for the first eight weeks up to. Midterm, we do PE twice a week. All the staff do PE twice a week. And a fundamental movement, Mike, like running for the younger ages, hopping and skipping for the older, their timetable is in as well. And then we do PE twice a week for the last eight weeks as well. So again, we timetable in specific fundamental movements. And if we're doing gymnastics, the fundamental movements that go in with that

would be balancing and landing. So they tie in with the strand that you're doing, you know? So like, obviously a school can do it, like, you know, if they want to put, where I think the biggest bang would be it's manpower, you know?

You need more you need more people helping to make to make the p a better experience and really like you know it's it's a no-brainer like you know yeah like you said you like you said mike it might stop as well like you know people whether they are heading to dubai or wherever they're heading like you know like if you had those in school there's more jobs and sounds simple but it's factual like you know yeah absolutely and like like i said i'm above an mtu and and one

of the biggest ones they're pumping out is is p and business and they're they're getting teachers out there who are going doing another year and then they're qualified out there but there's only so many jobs obviously and then people are going off to Dubai or Australia and they're going to find themselves and find some tax free living for a while and different things and that's all good too but something like that just to me it just makes complete

sense to me from every angle to keep these really young and energetic and enthused teachers at home with a new and exciting role that is giving kids all around Ireland an opportunity, no matter who you are or in whatever socioeconomic background you belong to. You now have an opportunity to be exposed to everything that you're talking about there in terms of the fundamental movement and the games and the gymnastics, everything.

I mean, that's, and the knock-on benefit that would have if we start to integrate a little bit of work on our nutrition and all those different things and how that will impact our country in 20 years' time. It's amazing that there isn't something better in play now. For that next 20 years, the way we're talking about it. It's in terms of like, what's the long-term vision for the country as well?

Like, you know, so you referenced the stat, like it's, I think it might be 17.7% or one in 20, or sorry, 20%, you know, of kids, you know, under 12 that are overweight. Like that figure is only going to go up, like, you know, unless there's real thinking done on what's needed for, you know, PE in primary schools, like, you know, and extension, you know, secondary schools also. And Mike, on top of that, Mike, okay, the massive push for wellness over the last, however many years.

I mean, as far as I can tell, and again, I'd obviously be biased, I want to preface this by saying, but like the effect that a good PE curriculum could have on that alone. Activity, exercise, achieving something. Like, you know, I think if you looked across all the things that would do well for mental health, activity and exercise would be in the top three for every single one of them, you know, and it's something we don't push.

Yeah, it's just bizarre. Like you mentioned the word earlier, Stephen just said it was failing or failure or one of those words. Like if we were to give our PE curriculum in primary school, in your opinion, a mark out of 10 now, you're obviously putting that at less than 40. Obviously it's below, or what's it past now? Is it past 35 now or something? Or 30? Three we go, Mike. It was 40, three out of 10. Yeah. And are you somewhere close to Pete?

Yeah, probably. Like, look, I want to preface it by saying that the PDST and AJ, like you know because i've worked with them in the past 15 years and they do unbelievable work savage savage work like you know but it's just not getting out to the masses yeah yeah so to me i don't know what i give it a mark of three you know maybe i'd be i i might say five i don't know but um he's optimistic mike i'm a cynic i'm slightly more optimistic than steve like you know but but even in

terms of like if you're like full-time pe advisors in terms of the primary school at the moment i don't think i'm wrong on this like there's three full-time pe advisors for the whole of ireland like you know what is it what is a pe advisor just so i'm clear so basically if you as a school would like a small bit of help with p say in terms of okay i need to make a p plan or we as a schooler we're not skilled enough maybe in dance then you would fill out a form and if you put it down

as number one p is number one then they will send out an advisor to your school and they would help the school in terms of that bush like i it's it's either three or four but i think it's three. And how many schools are we talking? Steve, you looked it up the other day, how many schools? Thousands, Mike. There's 3,300 primary schools in Ireland. And of those, about, I don't know, 60, 70% are like the teachers, or the principals are as a teaching principal. Yeah. Yeah.

And just to go back to that point, Pete, the last thing I would like anybody listening to this to take is that in some way I would be disparaging towards the teachers or anybody that's trying to roll this out. That is 100% not the case, obviously, because I'd be in trouble at home, if nothing else.

But it is that whole, it is the structure. It is the structure of the whole thing and how we can structure it better to help everybody, the teachers and the kids and our health system and everything else down the line would be far better if this was structured in a way like you're speaking about, that we could get most bang for our buck now and into the future.

And yeah, just to make that point, just in case anybody... Yeah, Mike, myself and Pete have a ton of experience doing this, like, you know, like coaching PE, all the... But if I had 39 kids in front of me, I could not, I could not give them a lesson that would meet the needs of all the kids. I would have kids standing out. We're lucky to have a hall in our school. Like, our school is blessed. We have a hall, we have a mini-astro, we have a field, we have a playground. They're so lucky, you know.

But our hall is small enough, 39 kids. What can I do with 39 kids? They have to be sitting out for a portion of it because I'll have to make small teams to try and accommodate them in the games that we try and play. You know, you just can't, no matter how good you are, you can't facilitate that many kids. And even if it was 30 kids, you couldn't facilitate 30 kids as well as.

But if you two teachers split them into two 15s with a nice little plan that's based on the school plan, away you go, you're sorted, you know. And facilities are always going to be an issue for primary schools. But again, the biggest one, like you mentioned, is resources and people and having that help to be able to make things happen. Even by its nature, like PE as an activity, things are going to get broken.

So in terms of replacing your resources, if you actually don't get a PE grant every year, you're diving into something else in order to replace those. So I can't understand that line of thinking. So, yeah, go on, sorry, Steve. I'm an all boys school, Mike. So not a few things get broken. Loads of things get broken every year in our school. Yeah, yeah. But like if you're, so if you're going buying, if you want to buy five soccer balls and five hoops and five skipping ropes and five whatever else.

Where is that money coming from? If that's not a... That money comes from, it's called, you get a couple of grants, Mike, every year. You get something called capitation, which is an amount of money per child in the school. So the more kids you have, the more money you get. You get something called a minor works grant as well. Like this year, we've got a STEM grant. You get an IT grant, et cetera, et cetera.

And then you get ancillary, which is to pay for staff. So the main bank of money that you can get it from is really capitation, you know. And again, if your school has issues, like say we had to replace a boiler last year with 4,000 euros, you know, you're not going to have a whole pile of capitation to buy PE equipment. Like so gymnastic mats, Mike, are extremely expensive. Now, I was very lucky. I found this great fellow in Ireland, but it still cost me over 1,000 euros to get the equipment.

Gymnastic mats and a lot of principals might might said look that's we've too much there's too much going on here i can't afford that you know and you know i just because i have a massive interest in it i i'd put the time and i'd put the money into it you know and they are great investment you know but that's that's the reality for most schools is like they're trying to balance the funds like insurance mike is only going up so say i get 27 or 8 000 capitation year mike all that insurance is

about 8 000 mike you know straight away mike heating oil in our school you know about a half to you know is gone already on the basic necessities that you need in the school you know like water like you know straight away so there's not a whole pile left to invest in things like you know what would you like you wouldn't even call it a fringe things it's like the stuff that people might consider very important to implement the

curriculum but there's just the funding mightn't be there for it but that like you you mentioned there a stem grant that you you specifically get stuff for for. For that side of things. But to your point, Pete, then there is no, well, here, you're going to get five grand for PE equipment. Every school is going to get this or depending on the number of schools or number of students in the schools.

There is nothing like that, which I just can't, I just don't understand how we're still in 2025 now nearly. And we're still not at this point where you're trying to pinch a couple of pennies here from different things to be able to afford gymnastics, Matt, for your schools.

Yeah, that's it. Like I was saying, like 15 years, more or less of a teaching principal and if you don't get a grant in 15 years i don't know what's going on like you know yeah yeah yeah so so in terms of of of moving it forward lads and and solutions so so the biggest kind of thing that you're talking about really is is this idea of of a teacher basically of a more a teacher who's visiting a couple of schools and doing that kind of job is there anything because obviously

i'm not in that loop or that circle is there any talk of anything like that happen or is this completely just. You know, pie in the sky at the moment? Well, I tell you, there's a new curriculum coming, Mike, and I think it's not, I think lately about it that there's a lot of curriculums coming, being honest, it seems like every year in primary schools.

So again, that's sometimes adding to stress and I'm sure you get that at home as well in terms of, geez, we have to do this and this and this now, you know, so in terms of PE, I think next year there's a PE and wellness curriculum coming in, but I think it's sort of a transitional year. So teachers will be made aware of it and it's probably maybe the year after that where it might be properly implemented. Now that'll have a knock-on effect to time.

So in other words, there's going to be an increased allocation of time, but it's an increased allocation towards PE and wellness. So what the division of time between PE and wellness is, I'm not altogether sure at the moment. And then how schools might decide to split up that time can sometimes be dependent on the principal.

So if, for example, you have a principal who might be very interested in wellness, but maybe not so interested in PE, that principal might decide to put a lot towards wellness and then not a huge amount towards PE. Now, I could be wrong when I'm saying that, Mike, but we'll have to wait and see exactly what happens when the whole thing comes out, you know. And by wellness, what are we defining as wellness now at this level?

I suppose you're talking like, you know, a growth mindset, fixed mindset, you know, regulating your emotions, dealing with scenarios, you know, communicating your feelings, not being afraid to talk about things, bottling them up, etc., etc. Or things like that, Mike, you know, there'd be a fair, I suppose it would fall under the SPHE curriculum, like social and personal health education one, but they're going to tie it in with PE.

And Pete's right. And it could be left at the discretion of the teacher. And again, then the teacher might say, oh, look, two PE classes a week. Oh, you know, but if they're mad into PE, they'll say, yeah, we're going to PE. And if it was me, Mike, I'd be like, yeah, I'll put the wellness to the side there and I'll hammer home the PE for two weeks because I think that's all the wellness they need, you know.

I might get more balance on that, Mike, you know. But I was going to say, we need to see you're the other side of the coin and we need to have some bit of balance to it as regards the.

Time allocation like I just jotted it down as far as I'm aware juniors and seniors it will go from an hour to two hours and thirty minutes and first to six class I think is going to go from an hour to three hours but it does depend on you know how well that's structured in order to get the full value of it like you know but look as we've said earlier on like you can have all the time and it's brilliant, but you need more numbers in the class to get the full value out of the play, you know?

Yeah. So that'll be three hours from first to sixth divided, as we're not sure of the division between PE and wellness from, when is that coming in, Pete?

I think there's a transition year next year, which is to make people aware that there's a new PE curriculum coming. And whether it's the year after that, I'm not sure, to be honest. Okay. Okay. Well, that sounds like a positive step anyway, at least in terms of the allocation of time and hours, obviously. That's all it does, though, Mike. It just sounds great. Yeah. Do you know? Like, that to me... I thought you were a positive one, Stephen. No, peace to positive. Peace to positive. I'm a cynic.

Yeah, yeah. No, Mike, but it does sound great, but it sort of depends on, look, how well organized your school is in terms of your school P.E. plan. And then, you know, is there anyone else who might be able to help you? As Steve said, whether it's a full time P.E. person or not, like, you know, so the time is great. But look, what else can you put in addition to the time to get the max value out of it?

You know, like, Mike, if there was, for example, say if school gave or if the government gave schools grants towards P.E., well, then maybe I can pay someone and someone to come in and do gymnastics. Maybe I can pay an athletics coach to come in and do a six or seven week block with the teacher, you know. So, you know, maybe we can be creative and get around it that way. Listen, we're doing two hours per week. One will be the teacher on their own.

They'll manage as best they can, but we're going to get a paid coach in here to do athletics, you know. And it would be a fabulous avenue for anybody who's interested in athletics coaching, gymnastics coaching. Like we take the kids swimming, Mike, in our school. And I'm sure Pete does in his school. And my sisters down in the girls' school, they take all of them.

So most, a lot of schools will take kids swimming. And it's fantastic, you know, because you can clearly see progression from first class when we start taking them to sixth class. You know, there's very few who can't swim by the time they're finished with the primary school curriculum because of that initiative, because we make the effort to take them swimming. So, you know, if that same energy and drive was put in, but Mike, it's qualified coaches going and doing the swimming coaches,

you know what I mean? Or going to do swimming lessons. So the kids clearly benefit from it, you know? And talking about wellness, you see the confidence that kids have in a swimming pool at that stage when they have actually learned a new skill and have gained that kind of confidence to jump into the water and be able to swim and do all that.

But even the point you're making there about being able to pay a gymnastics coach or an athletics coach, that's still down to the discretion of the principal's interests. If the principal sees value in it, then, well, I'm going to use my allocation here to try and get in somebody.

It still has to be in a situation I think where this is across the board and we're bringing this down from the government where there's going to be an allocation of a thousand new PE teachers in primary school and we're going to roll this out in the next couple of years. And Mike, what they do normally when they're introducing say the school lunches, the hot school lunches, it's all a pilot phase first.

So we'll pick a certain amount of schools and we'll run that and then we'll add more to that and then we'll roll it out.

You know so it doesn't have to be so there's we have a couple of years here you know where we could plan for this where we could make the positions available in college source the coaches who could contribute to this and then let's roll it out in a pilot phase see how it goes let's look at the outcomes from that you know, and take it from there you know.

So, yeah, I think we've a good bit covered. And that now, lads, I think that was a conversation well worth having because it is so, and like I know we're vested in the GEA in particular and we've great interest in that side of things. But for the kids that will never play GEA, that have no interest in GEA or soccer or rugby or basketball, they don't want to be involved in our traditional sports.

Are those kids, you know, at 16 or 14 or 15 years of age, sitting at home on a PlayStation for six hours a day and then they're on their phone for the other four hours and it's screen time, screen time, screen time. And the thought of going out for a walk or a jog or to do an acroarobics class or a gym class would be completely foreign to them.

And if we can just hit those kids and those families and those parents and educate all of them from those younger age groups and have the kids going home telling their moms and dads about the fun they had doing gymnastics today or that they learn to make a healthy dish in this kind of...

Like, it's just... I can't understand how we're not all over that yet from a government level all the way down as opposed to what we're trying to do here and you're trying to build this up from the bottom, you know? But, Mike, you can even see it in adults. Like, you know, sometimes you'll be able to see when an adult is running whether they've been taught, you know, the correct way of running in a primary school, you know?

And more than likely, if they haven't, you know, they're either self-conscious.

And they don't want to run for fear of looking silly you know and if they have children at home you know there's a you know a real possibility that can be passed on to the child as well like and their their bias can be passed on to the child you know what i mean or their their bad experience i should say like there's there's individual sports mike do you know like where you know you don't have to be part of a team like i i

i rock climb now mike i started when i stopped playing and honestly i've never missed. Gab, because I took up rock climbing. But it is amazing the amount of people who take up rock climbing. And they wouldn't be one bit sporty, but it is an addictive sport, you know, and they get so into it, you know. So I'm convinced there's a sport for everybody. It's just we have to give them experience, let them sample all these sports and surely they go home with one maybe that they've been interested in.

And then at least you can say, look, we did everything we could. Yeah. You know, but right now we're not doing everything we can for the kids of this country, you know.

There's a lot of great organisations. Like the GAA is incredible For what it does In this country You know You know And like other organisations I say would only jump on board If there was an opportunity To tie in with all the schools You know To promote themselves You know And let's give kids The best chance To do something For the rest of their lives You know.

That's about it Really isn't it Yeah That's about it This would be It'd be great And obviously There'd be people Screaming at the thing now Saying listen We've got a housing crisis I can't afford To do my weekly shop I understand That they're far more significant issues in the world than maybe what we're talking about.

But from the area that we're coming from and are very passionate about sport and physical activity and developing young kids and giving them the confidence that will carry them through life in different ways, this is a very important thing that I would love to see some political weight being thrown behind to say this is a really, really positive thing that we could help change a lot of people if we went and jumped on. Mike, I'm going to disagree with you on that one.

I put it up there with the housing, with all this stuff. Your health is number one. To me it's the most important thing. I consider my body a gift to try and keep it as healthy for as long as possible. I consider it a gift to be able to go in and stay active and it gives me joy and it gives me purpose. I love it and I'd love if that momentum or that idea was passed down to loads of people like, we want a healthy nation. Without your health, what are you at? We're at nothing. You know?

Yeah, I don't disagree. I don't disagree. I just know. I know there'll be letters and tweets. These things are just so important. And whichever your lane is, and our lane is obviously this, and we see this as hugely important. And especially, I see it now with my own kids. My kids are getting to the stage where things are getting, you know. Starting to get a lot more competitive.

And and luckily they would have had a great exposure when they were young they did gymnastics they did all these things and they and I can see it in them that they move really well they're not as big as the other kids or anything but they move really well and that's from I it has to be just from a complete exposure to loads of different games and you know hill walking and every kind of a thing they did and and the movement

is there is the thing that jumps over you know the other stuff will that'll.

Come eventually if they stick at it but the movement that you can help provide for kids the movement skills that you can help provide from i i just say it all it all comes from primary school pete like that's where that's where that's where kids are picking up it's either in the yard or in the p classes but but that's what the benefit we're giving them when they move on to secondary school and beyond you know yeah like the move the movements they're taught in primary school like even if you

take a fundamental movement movement skill of jumping like that jumping if they're taught that skill properly like you know translate across to whether you're jumping for a slither and hurling or a gaelic football basically you know so so they all tie in with each other basically yeah yeah 100% lads where where uh game sense at the moment how how are how are things going on that side of things obviously the people that would listen regularly

would be aware that game sense and have had an association with the podcast for the past couple of years and have been a great advocate of it so where where are you now in terms of of growing that and how is that going look it's going great mike. And it's like, yeah, the membership is consistently growing every year. And like right now, we're always trying to see how can we make it the best experience for coaches, Mike. So like right now, we're in the middle of a big update.

What we really want to do then, Mike, is try and make it as invaluable an experience for clubs as well, Mike, so that if a club uses it, that they can get a massive value out of it. And like we're going along the lines, Mike, of being able to assess our players quite simply, you know, what are their skills like at an underage level? Then what are we like in terms of principles of play at older levels? Is there then, can we look at these results?

Is there a deficiency in our coaching? Are we missing something? Oh, look here in Gaelic football, high fielding, lads, we're quite poor on that.

So let's target that so next year, so that the club can come up with a targeted plan for their teams, for the way they play as well. So we're always trying to just see how we can make it more useful to people in general, Mike, like the user experience, make it easier to find games, et cetera, et cetera. Like we've a ton of courses put up on the website now trying to educate people on things to look out for, et cetera, et cetera. We've we've plenty more planned. We love it, Mike.

It is so fulfilling. It is so rewarding because, you know, this podcast probably be 45 minutes, Mike. But we talk to you for two hours. You know, we just love it because there's no answer, Mike. You know what I mean? There's loads of avenues, but there's no definitive answer. And that's the beauty of it, you know. So it's a constant trying to find the best way to get across what we think would work well for clubs.

And Pete, just for people maybe that haven't heard of it or what it is, and I know Stephen's obviously given a kind of brief overview there, but maybe just highlight kind of what it is that the website and GameSense is all about, just for people maybe that haven't heard of it before. Steve, to be honest, Mike, is really the man of the guards, who's the best man

to talk about. But it's pretty much, we'll say, a website showcasing games that are learning games from under seven all the way up as far as adults. So in terms of the junior side of things, games that would improve their basic skills, whether it be kicking and catching. And then when you go from maybe 15 up, you're talking about introducing things

called principles of play for teams that are 15 and up. And say, for example, trying to create wits on a pitch, how you might go about that in your in your session design. Excuse me. So it's it's Steve, do you want to add anything on to that sort of website? Oh, that's that's it, Mike. It's just a resource.

Like and if you're Mike, a coach with loads of experience like yourself on the website, you can put up your own games, you know, so you might you can take pictures of all your own games and have your own library of games for yourself.

And you can dip in and out of the website if you want to. So we're trying to make it so that if a coach goes on, everything they'll need is there on the website, you know, whether it's their own stuff, whether it's the stuff we've put up, everything that they want is there basically.

Huge resource for coaches at all ages really which is which is something that was yeah which was probably badly needed and and it's kind of core it it's come along with the shift kind of away from more drill-based activities into into helping kids and youths and adults to find the correct decisions through games which is which is what we've all anytime anybody that played the game it's about playing the game and figuring stuff

out as opposed to standing behind cones and running in straight lines doing ball drills. So it really helps with that shift of mindset and of practice of getting away from more drill-based activity. Not that there's nothing wrong with doing a little bit of that, obviously, but then it's providing a great platform for people to explore games and find the benefits of that, I suppose, really. All the skills, Mike.

So, like, you know, we're talking about drills and stuff. Like, all of our games for the underage, you know, they're not like 3v3 match games. You know, they're just drills, but gamified. You know, just designed for them to be more interactive so nobody has to stand around, you know? And like, that's the idea behind it to make it more enjoyable for the kids. But you're still focusing on the skills for the most part at the underage, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And Mike, it makes it maybe more enjoyable for like, I'd say 90% of people who are coaches, I want to go down, I want to help my child, you know? I have no idea what I'm doing here. So if you go onto the site, you'll find some games and you know, that might help you in your session. So it won't be a complete head wreck when you go down and you try to coach children, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And it gives you a little bit of a weaponry that you can get by and survive for 20 minutes of the session that you've been asked to take or something like that. But it is though for new moms or dads that are only getting involved in the club for a first time because, look, every club is crying out for people to help at all age groups. So if you can help out and this will give you a little bit more information and help you survive for a year or two, then isn't it great?

Where are you lads with the new rules have you looked at these much and how do you think that they will impact the game in general. Ooh, like, I just think you have to wait and see, Mike. First of all, Mike, you know, I do think there'll be absolutely unintended consequences of it. Like, you know, like... Give me one. All right, I was thinking of one the other night with a good friend of mine,

Shawnee Buckley, and Shawnee's a great coach, right? And so, for example, Mike, you're attacking, all right? In the opposition half, you kick the ball down to the bottom corner.

You kick for touch, Mike, all right? so you're giving the opposition a defensive line ball inside their 13 metre line Mike, if there's one player who's to take the sideline, you bring up your keeper you have a plus 2 now in defence to press that team so is that going to be an unintended consequence where we now have Gaelic team it would kill me to see it kicking for touch just to generate a plus 2 now in an attacking press as opposed to the plus 1 I think you'll see the.

Erasure of keepers, Mike. I think their role in general, Mike, you're probably better off going with a fella like Ethan Rafferty who can kick it. There's not many Niall Morgans out there like, you know, and Ethan Rafferty who's an outfield player but who can kick it. Because in general, more kickouts are probably just going to go long now for the contests, you know. So we need an outfield player who's fit, who can press and who can get back quick.

You know, so will it kill the role of the keeper? Will it be like basketball, Mike? Will we have more shots from the two-point arc as opposed from the inside? Will we see teams working it inside the arc, taking it back out then to kick from outside the arc? Because it's worth two points, you know? There's loads of stuff like that that could possibly happen. And added to that, like, you've the difference between inter-county and club. Like, you know, the majority of your GA is club.

So in terms of how all that's going to be policed by referees, like, I honestly feel so, so sorry for the referees in terms of, you know, how they're going to do this. Like, you know, and then what help will they get, whether it be from linesmen and some games that you're playing with club you won't have linesmen as well do you know what I mean so there's. I still think, Mike, the principles of good play would be the same.

You know, I still think the principles of good play. I think, like, if you're a team that emphasizes kick, pass, and quick transition, I think those principles are still going to be the same. Tight, low block, and defense, etc., etc. I still think they'll be the same, you know? So, like, I think the game will change, but I still think the basic core principles that you need to be good at for Gaelic football won't change.

That'll be my initial thoughts on it. It will be nice to see more kicking as well, Mike, I would say, you know, into the forwards. So I'd imagine David Clifford might love it, but, you know, we'll see. You'd imagine most of the forwards will enjoy it. Like the principles will remain the same, but I think they're just going to become exaggerated.

Like I think if you're a team that has always liked to kick the ball, well, no, I think that's going to be magnified and exaggerated to a point that no matter where you are in the pitch, if you're one of the attacking three guys, you're probably really only maybe two kick passes away at all times maybe three maybe three depending on if it's down the far and like that that is going to make a huge difference to the game it has to it has to it has to make it a bit easier

for those guys if you are only being defended now as you call it in a low block with 11 outfield defenders as opposed to 15 like that would be more space huge huge difference huge difference and the transition part of it, like early feedback from, I watched one or two kind of games that are going on at the moment just with different teams.

And like the pace of this game, like there will be no, there will be no fellas wanting to play in the inside defensive line because the ball is just coming at them incessantly with loads of space and loads of pace. It's, I think it's like, they'll have to actually mark their men like we used to have back in the day. I think you will find yourselves that it'll be a struggle now to get fellas to play in the full back line because it's going to be the most difficult line in the field.

The way the ball is going to move so yeah the keeper could be playing sweeper I don't know Mike will you see teams they'll defend hard on the arc and they'll defend hard on the six yard square because they don't want to concede a goal but they'll happily concede a point do you know because it'd be interesting to see what teams decide to go with you know, yeah Yeah, and look, I don't think teams will have a clue really until they

get through a National League campaign and now we see what are the trends and different things. But I still think I wouldn't be as negatively sceptical as you seem to be. I do think, in general, we will be looking at a game, that is more attractive for the supporters and will be more attractive and enjoyable for the players that are actually giving all the time and playing the game.

I'm hopeful. Like even the stuff there about like, you know, you foul and you throw the ball or one of those slow the game fouls where you just hold on to the ball and roll around the floor and now suddenly the referee picks it up and runs 50 metres up the pitch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's going to cut out a huge amount of messing and time wasting around the place.

So it'll be interesting lads yeah it'll be it'll be interesting to see how it goes is there anything we didn't touch on there before I let you go because I'm probably going a bit over time there's a 40% discount Mike if you go onto our Twitter page there's a 40% discount on the Twitter page there so if any coach and we're going to leave that open for a good few weeks Mike because, we just want as many coaches to make use of the site as they can basically perfect

and Mike will you ever leave your poor wife alone yeah it sounds to me like you're always better, no no no no. No, this is a regular conversation in my house where I ask, how many hours of religion are the kids asked to do and how many hours of physical education are they asked to do?

And that would be my, I tend to have that beef a little bit too often and nothing against religion again, but I would rather them be outside playing basketball or running or doing athletics or I would maybe see a little bit more value in time spent in that area as opposed to, maybe some of the other stuff that is being done. But again, I don't have control over the curriculum, but my way of getting control is to give out to my wife.

Lads, thanks a million for your time. As I would have said at the start in the introduction, I'm doing these obviously to try and help coaches and provide a little bit to coach information for people and see if they can improve what they're doing but also as a fundraiser for, Tiernanog orphanage over in Tanzania which is run by a girl called Louise Quill who'd be the sister of Declan Quill who would have been joint manager with the Kerry Ladies in one of the All-Ireland last

year Louise went over here in Tanzania a number of years ago and was horrified by what she saw and basically took it upon herself to create an orphanage out of nothing and like it's an amazing an amazing facility now for the people of that community so again just asking the people that listen and find a bit of value in this if you could find a link to that donation page on my Twitter or on my social media stuff or in the

podcast description and just throwing a couple of Euros to that if you can and it all go directly obviously to Louise and the gang in Tiernan Oak so lads thanks a million again for your time really really appreciate it cheers Mike thanks a lot thanks a lot. Music.