Skill Development Unlocked: A Conversation with Dr. Ed Coughlan

Music. Welcome back again, everybody, to the podcast where we try and scratch a little bit below the surface of coaching and see if we can find ways that we can all do it a small bit better.

Today, I'm delighted to say that I'm joined by Dr. Ed Collin. Ed would have a PhD in the whole area of skill acquisition, and I really picked his brains in this episode to try and find out what is the best way or how can we create the best environment to enable that the players that we're working with can become very skillful.

We look at what skill actually is. Is it just the delivering of technique in isolation or is it being able to perform a skill under pressure in a game scenario, game situation where there's decisions to be made, there's opponents, there's pressure, and then how we can replicate that in our practice to enable that player or that person to become a little bit more proficient at delivering the skill at the right time.

So there's a lot in it. And I think whether you're coaching as a novice and somebody who's starting out or you've been coaching a long time and you're involved at a high level, I think there is definitely a lot of stuff here in this for everybody to take something from. And hopefully it improves what you deliver to your players when you get back to them. Before I let it roll, I just again want to say a big thank you to everybody who has contributed to the fundraiser for Tiernanog.

Again, like I would say before every episode and after every episode, the link is going to be in the podcast description or on my social media stuff at Mike Quirk. And that link is an I donate page whereby if you have found value in the content of any of these conversations, I would be asking just that maybe you could contribute a couple of euros, which all goes very much directly to Louise Quill and the Tiernanog Orphanage in Tanzania.

Okay be sure as always to let me know what you think of Ed and I hope you enjoy so. Music.

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Okay, so Ed, thanks a million for joining us. Really appreciate your time. Not at all, Mike. Good to be asked and really appreciate the work that you've been doing on the podcast to date anyway. So love being involved. Appreciate it. That's great. I suppose, Ed, again, when I looked you up and started reading around your bio, the skill acquisition stuff is obviously your area of expertise.

And I think it's such an interesting, fascinating area because especially where this podcast has kind of, you know, transitioned to more kind of youth sport and parents and youth coaches and looking at that whole side of things and the whole debate about how do we develop skillful players? Is there a drills-based way? Is it a games-based way? Is it how do we get the most out of it? So I'm delighted to be able to pick your brains for a little bit and get into it a small little bit.

I'm sure you get that a lot. no it's great because in fairness there's there's an appetite for it which i think is great at the moment because people are just interested in doing better for the kids yeah that's what it comes down to yeah i think the parents are are are trying to see can i do something better but i also think the coaches are thinking you know what i think i can be doing better than what maybe we're currently doing and that's

just what's creating these conversations which is lovely because who are the winners in all this the kids hopefully they're getting they're experiencing better things in the sports that they play and in the environments that they're in or in the games that they play you know what I mean yeah and if that's happening well then that's that's a win-win do you know what I mean so I'm delighted that there's more conversations like this happening great so I

suppose we'll start at the beginning in terms of skill to you how do you define skill in a sporting context my my definition of skill is borrowed borrowed by people a lot smarter than me who would basically define skill as the ability to.

Execute a technique on on a task in a context so what i mean by a context is that if you ask me to kick a football i'll kick a football no problem but if you ask me to kick a football to that player who's moving and i'm being tackled at the same time can i still kick that football at that same level of proficiency probably not and that's where skill comes in that you're within a context and oftentimes context in in sport is when there's a bit more pressure be that pressure from

an opponent or pressure from the clock or pressure from the scoreboard, does that skill hold up? So for me, that's the definition of skill is being able to execute a task when there's a context at play. Yeah, and the context is the key part, I suppose, there, isn't it, really?

Like, in terms of Gaelic games or basketball, practicing free throws, standing on a free throw line in isolation as a kind of a real close skill or kicking ball on your own in the field at the goals or hurling, doing the same thing, or soccer, striking the ball or doing keepy-uppies. The context is what makes a person skillful.

So it's almost, there's several degrees to that skill, obviously, because you'd still say somebody who's, you know, shooting unopposed in a basketball gym on their own, making 10 shots out of 10 shots. There's obviously a high level of skill attached to that, but the context of the game obviously isn't there. Yeah. And I think you've just hit upon something there that we've been really strong on for the last number of years is of, you know, someone comes to say,

Ed, are you saying so? We should never do this. And I'm like, hang on. I'm trying to resist the temptation of ever telling anyone to never do something, you know. And what, but what I will say is, is if I, if I, if I'm going around the place and I see a young person practicing on their own, doing something, I'm thinking, stay away, stay away from that. Because in their mind, they're deeply involved in what they're doing in that moment. And I'm thinking, you can't, you can't improve on that.

However, if I'm, if I see a coach telling someone to do maybe the exact same practice. But I'm then thinking, I'm now prepared to maybe go in and challenge that because I'm thinking, well, what they're asking that person to do, the evidence wouldn't be great around that practice. Whereas if we self-select the same type of practice, it could be brilliant.

Why? because in our mind if we're doing it on our own and i've like again i've two young fellas mike, and i'll come home some days and they'll be out in the green outside the house and they'll have, poles set up and cones set up and they'll do it on but it's on their own so i'm like that's amazing but if you ask me would i ever set up a thing like that never why would i but if this is so in their minds they're in croke park and they're in park equeve and they're in wembley and

they're you know what I mean in that moment get out of their way yeah but as a coach maybe don't prescribe that you know and I think that's the difference when we have a context and if the context is in our mind that you know and I remember when I was young we had two chimneys on top of our house I would try and kick the ball in between the two chimneys and then when I did I'd be turning around to the crowd there was no one there but in that context I was I was in it.

If someone turned around and said, no, you've got to get 50 kicks between that and that, that's different because now I'm doing it because someone else wants me to do it. So we have to be very careful with what we're even, how we're even engaging with young people in their practice. You know, I love if the young person comes on to me and says, Ed, what do you think of the alley? I love my hurling. What do you think of the alley? I'd be like, grand.

Now, do you have a mate? I do. Well, then get out of the alley. Go with your mate and puck and be always in a different place and have to find him and all this. Are you on your own i'm on my own hey knock your fill your boots in the alley yeah no and then i'd be like but what would you do in the alley to make it feel like it's well these are the type of movements oh work away you know that type of way yeah yeah so so my i suppose my point being is.

Generalized prescription about everyone should be doing this i'm trying to get away from that yeah yeah i'm trying to get away and and instances where i feel like the kids the young people are in their own heads filled with context and they're in their moment I'm trying to, just allow that just happen and get out of their way you know it reminds me of the one where all the time you know Michael Jordan hitting a game winner as the buzzer is ticking down and my

young lads would be outside and I'd hear him counting three two and they're trying to hit a turnaround jump shot before the buzzer goes off and the imaginary buzzer in their head but at least they're adding you know context to what they're trying to do I suppose But in that moment, they're feeling pressure. Yes. Yes, that's incredible. Whereas if someone said now before you go to your when you get home now outside in the yard, you got to hit your 10 jump shots.

Then I'm just trying to fill, fulfill a drill. I'm just trying to get by and get it done. I have I have a sign here up on my of my of my wall here. And it's a opening up that feel and intuition is done through practice, but is destroyed by over practice. So that idea for me speaks to that Those young fellas out there Three, two, one and fade away jumper.

Their intuition and their feel Is on fire in that moment Go out there You can't come in for your dinner until you hit five Oh Jesus Now we're killing it You know.

So I think that context is key for me Context is key And to that end If we're talking about developing. Skillful players or young people who are coming to our GA clubs or our soccer clubs or rugby or basketball or whatever sport it might be.

And we still you know the traditional idea of skill development is okay we're doing drills now I think it has it has moved I think it is shifted significantly but there's still a large element of okay we're doing linear straight line you get a ball and you do this and you pass it over to him and then you run behind the back line.

It's certainly lessened but it's still there and again I've often done coaching courses where people have asked about those and I say look there's no problem doing a little bit of it if you need to if you feel you need to do it but obviously the game is where we're going where is that now where are we in that discussion space now, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think we're moving away from it and we're moving away at a good pace, but that doesn't mean that we've all moved away.

I think people like Phil Kearney and UL are doing huge work on helping this. The courses that they run there and things like that, they're having a huge impact on people being able to feel that there's now a place and a person we can talk to.

I know there's others others like them but even the work let's say you know Phil led led a team of us actually for the GA but he was the lead on developing the skill acquisition guide for the GA that was that was done recently straight away already that's had an impact because you know if people feel like oh I actually have a resource I just have something that I can go to just to be able to attend to it let's say so I think you're right in saying it's moving away from it But I'm also aware,

as you said, that there's still people who will still go back and do the things that they've coached the way they were coached, right? And I think if we were having this conversation 10, 15 years ago, I'd be a lot harder on those people than I probably am now. Because nowadays, I think I see the coaches who do that, they do it from a position of kind of comfort and safety.

Because maybe, and again, like most parents, most parents get involved in coaching because they were just caught at training one night, you know? They dropped off Mary and John. It was like, oh, hang on, you have a tracksuit bottoms. Hang on there a second. What? These aren't even my tracksuit bottoms. And all of a sudden I'm coaching.

And then they come up the next week and they've got their initials on a fleece with coach on the back. Like, what happened there? I only dropped them up. And I think that's unfair. I think that's that. And we need it. Volunteerism is the bedrock of Irish sport. But I think we need to do better for those type of people to be like, you know what? Because what do they do when they're caught in a situation? I set up a drill that will run itself. So I appreciate I understand why they do it. Yeah.

But I think we just need to be better to give them a little bit more support in those early days. And I think some of that support comes from it's okay to let them figure something out. Whereas maybe at the start, they're told, you know, a lot of foundation level and level one coaching badges at the moment. If you actually step back and look at them, we do a lot of auditing of coach education here is a lot of it's just about crowd control.

So when it's about crowd control, well, then, you know, it's like if you've got a hammer, everything you see is a nail. If it's about crowd control then all you're trying to think is order order order order keep them in order they get that Monday to Friday in school they've got to cross their hands and put their finger over their mouth and all this stuff.

They've got to come to our sports and be thinking oh this is different, I don't have to, I have to stand in line before I go in after lunch break in the yard. Now I have to stand in line in training too. So there's, it's almost from that approach that I'm now saying, can we try and make it look and feel different to what they get in school? You know? And again, it's not in all schools. My two young fellas go, one is in secondary school now, but they both went to the same primary school.

You go to that primary school and it's like a gymboree for sports. It's one of the most sporty schools I've ever come across in my life. They're involved in all sorts, and not just sport, activity, but not all schools are, you know? No. And that's okay, too. But I'm just saying, for a lot of kids, their experience in school is one of order, structure, learning by rote, that type of thing.

Sport needs to be different. So then for the parents who've been shepherd hooked into the training and now being a coach, I'm like, I'm a coach. Jeez, what did I do to deserve this? i think we could do a lot by telling them it's okay to set something up and actually step back.

Oh am i still coaching that oh my you are and we'll work with you about how that's coaching too you don't always need to be talking during when they're doing things they don't always need to be told well done well done keep going well done great kick well done because you know what they can't hear you anyway they're so engrossed in their game you know yeah so to go back to what you said i do think it's moving a wave more away from the the drills i do

appreciate why i can still go into drills at times for people from a comfort or a safety point of view but i think in time if we can be better with those novice coaches who never thought they were going to be coaching or even those really eager coaches who always wanted to coach but were coming in with a really fixed idea of this is how i'm going to coach because this is how i was coached and we did very well, or I love Guardiola and I'm going to coach like him, you're like,

hang on a second, he's dealing with a completely different set of players, that we just have some more maybe resources or just a little bit more patience with them about what we expect of them. We're not expecting you to be able to run this session like amazing.

Actually, and this is some things we've been trying with some clubs. Here are three things that we'd love you to do in today's session. And it'd be like, make sure there's a game and that game is going to go on for 12 minutes. Just let them play, you know, and they're like, oh, so she's 12 minutes when I, you know, and we want you to do one thing where there's a gymnastic element where there's rolling, tumbling data.

Do that for 12 minutes, you know, now make sure when they're rolling and tumbling, there's balls rolling around and they have to pick this kind of thing. Yeah. All of a sudden they're coming back and say, geez, that's half the session before. And you can see them visibly calming down or relaxing rather than sometimes you'll see the volunteer parents coming along.

They've had three or four coffees before they start because they're like, they're very successful in their day-to-day job, but this is the most intimidating part of their week where they come up for an hour with the under nines, and it's like, oh my God, and this kid is a... So I just think we... I think, as you said, it's moving in the right direction. I just think we need to do a little bit more for those volunteer coaches who are the bedrock. You take out volunteer coaches, we have no sport.

And even the stuff we do here with our undergrads in MTU, not a lot of them are big in volunteering anymore, Mike. We're losing that sense of the importance of volunteerism. So even what we do, and I know we're not the only ones. I know it's happening all around the third level stuff in the sports kind of courses, is to remind the undergrads, volunteering is important.

You know everything does it need you don't need to be and you shouldn't in fact be looking to be paid for everything you do because you know what yeah, You're not qualified to be paid. So go and get some experience. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think we need to do a little bit more work on that too, of re-exciting or also just, I suppose, lifting up the importance of volunteerism again. Yeah. Because from what we're hearing from Sport Ireland, they're struggling to get people to help out.

Yeah. And I can see why. And then it goes back to the other, because sometimes when people do help out, all of a sudden they find themselves from the secretary and the chairman and the treasurer. and they're like, Jesus, they're washing the jerseys and they're doing the fix. We're not doing enough to help those who actually do put their hand up, let's say, you know? Yeah, and I think that's very fair.

And that is, like, that need for organization, you know, when you come to an under-nine session. And it is, for people that aren't familiar with it, it can be a very intimidating and challenging thing to have 19-year-olds of all different abilities. Some of them with no interest in being there, some of them very interested, and you're trying to manage all that in one go and maybe on your own or with somebody else who's not really interested either.

And so it is a challenge and I can understand the need for, okay, look, we're going to get them organized here with six lines or whatever it is. And I can understand that, but it is, it has definitely taken that shift.

But just for the people that would say, okay, if I'm talking about eight-year-olds, now it may be different, obviously, if I'm talking about 14-year-olds or 16-year-olds, Now it's easier for me To put them into A 2v1 game Or a 3v2 Whatever it is I can mix up That's really easy But when I'm dealing with Six or seven or eight year olds Who struggle to catch a ball They're How can I do the things that you talk about in terms of developing skill within

the context of a game when Jimmy is still more interested in picking daisies than kicking a ball or whatever? Yeah. So in that instance, I am a big fan of picking daisies with the kids. Fair enough. I am. And it's, I'll give you one example that happened a number of years ago now, but I was involved, you know, with my eldest who was, at the time, he was the only one involved because he's a few years older than the younger fella.

And that was you know saturday morning we're off and we're in the club and we're doing the bits and pieces and i'm over and i've i've got my you know my 12 for the next hour and i'm like how are you all this and i turn around there's two of the lads having a a lightsaber fight behind us you know and all i could hear is when i'm like but again it's different for me because i'm this is my job in a normal but you know i'm not an accountant and i'm going coaching i coach you in the

week and then i'm just coming here and in that moment i went over and i got down on my knee and i was like right lads who's who you know and i picked out my lightsaber like my lightsaber like you know and i was unaware of it at the time but anyway i said okay look what we're gonna do we're gonna.

We'll have one one fight and then then we'll go we'll go back in right and of course they're stunned like they were waiting to be yes come on lads get in you know but i was just like if we're in lightsaber mode we're in lightsaber mode yeah that's where we gotta be yeah i want them to want to come back in anyway we we did our bit and of course they come back in and after the session one of the parents sent me a photo and there's a picture of me with the two of them and i'm on my knees and

i was like you know what if that's if that's something that happened there i'm actually glad because that's a for me that's a little moment for those kids to be like you can have a lightsaber you know what i mean yeah but at that age at six and seven and eight. In one sense, it's not coaching that we're trying to do, really. We're actually just trying to expose them to the idea of being curious with either the ball or the hurley and the slitter or the basketball or the rugby

ball. Look at the shape of this ball. Look at it. You know what I mean? But more importantly, especially from with Irish kids, it's movement. It's we are nowhere near the and i you mentioned the term earlier on that gymnastic movement, element that we would have had back of my parents day you know when they were just out all day long and i know it sounds a little uh they weren't it but they were.

There was they weren't allowed in the house during the day like you know you weren't you wouldn't be allowed it was almost like are you sick you know no i'm not Get out, you know, out from underneath my feet type of thing. I think we have, for that age group, create lots of footballs or lots of hurlies and slithers and lots, you know, but also then lots of just exploration. I think there's far too much structure and form and function in the coaching of those under eights, nines and tens.

I think the idea of age and stage we now know again and I would have fallen foul to this back in the early days of my coaching we now know it doesn't work that every every child at this age and this stage needs to be able to do this doesn't work so now that we've been given that license from the evidence to tell us it doesn't work let's drop it let's stop this idea that okay you I heard something there a while back and in fairness they were brilliant they

took it on but they were like Ed so thanks for coming in I was doing a bit of work with the club thanks for coming in so we have a policy in our club that when they come out of the academy at primary school into primary school every child can hand pass and kick pass off both sides and solo the ball and I'm like.

Well how's that going lads and they're like very hard they're like, no lads I could name you 20 senior inter county all island winning footballers who can't even do that And yet you're saying that you can't progress out of the academy primary school section till everyone can hand pass, kick pass, hop and solo off both hands. What kind of that doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Like that sounds like school. You can't go into first year until you've done this in sixth class.

And so I'm much more about someone said to me recently. They were like Ed and then not so maybe in the last year or so about David Clifford and how he kicks the ball. And I was like, I was like, it's amazing. It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen, I said. But it's not anything I would ever coach anyone else. And I said, how do you mean? But sure, I said, I know because it's David Clifford's way of kicking a ball. I said, if kids are mimicking it, love it, drive on.

You know but if you're asking me is that how you should kick a football i'd be like no because it's that's that's suggesting that there's one way that we should all kick a football and that because david clifford is so brilliant at it we should do it his way even though we're all different in the shape and this and we don't have the experience of having potty as a brother and you haven't all yeah we're far too engrossed in this idea that there is a way to make everyone.

You know become the same as the best that we've seen and there's not so i think to go back to the the the the core of your question is what should we be giving as a as a guide for parents and coaches of under eights and nines and tens is are you able to create a place where when you take a step back from your session are the kids truly engaged in an enjoyable way are they more and.

Again how do we know that number one can you hear the kids over the parents and that's a big one for me yeah i'll go along and every so often and we there's a few of us do we go into a club and we'll be asked you will you come along to our nursery and have a look at what we're doing no problem we come down on a saturday morning look and i'll always say it i was like come out here a second who can you hear it's all the parents it's like how can we hear 12 parents and you've got 120 kids

how are we hearing the parents over 120 kids who are out in the open with with balls in front of them and everything how can we hear 12 parents over 120 kids like yeah that tells me that's a adult oriented environment as opposed to a child it should sound like wild pack of hyenas out there and the and all the adults are doing at that age group is are people safe they are are they enjoying it they are are they rolling around and picking up something and dropping

something and moving and bumping against someone and getting hit maybe even getting hurt and all you know what i mean yeah because they're in a they are great hang on there's a guy up there on an electrical fence get him down quick you know. But that's, for me, at six, seven, eight, nine, they're going to keep coming back if that's the environment where it's like, I can't wait to go to the train, you know? Yeah. And like the environment you described there with the noise, that's sterilized.

Like that is not normal for that kind of a thing. But the emphasis on the movement, I think, is an important point to make as well. It is.

It's a hugely important part because, again, from the evidence tells us around fundamental movement skills from all or a motor development, this current, I'm going to say generation, but this current group, let's say, over the last 20 years of people born in the last 20 years, their movement capacity at a childhood level isn't as proficient as it would have been previous to that those generations.

Why well they're not moving as much even though they're all doing usher oh we all know the cases usher my young fleas does hurling football soccer basketball tennis and sure i'm just a taxi but it's all organized sport yeah where's the exploration time i'm sure he's wrecked he's at home and then he just goes straight on the playstation or he's in the couch and so he's actually there's no time when he's a kid yeah doing kid stuff which is falling over figuring

out that that branch doesn't hold me and figuring out that that wall is too high and figuring out that that and what it's like to cycle a bike with a puncture and all the stuff that we yeah they're not doing that anymore.

So when it's overly organized we are robbing the kids of some really important exploration and curiosity stuff that i think left their own devices and that's where it goes back to again set up a game and then let's run it i i'm going a long way back now i was in clantarf ga a long time ago and we were doing some work with a few of their nursery groups and noel mccaffrey was there at the time right the jack jack's dad and we're run through some things and we we basically let took out all the

equipment in the morning and let the kids just have the equipment we were just chatting and look what what happens behind us the kids start taking out the bits and pieces and they start playing and again a couple of parents oh god hang on jeez that's gonna you know and we're like, relax just let's see what they do initially was it a bit mad it was but you know then you know what when they realized no one's coming to stop yeah they began to just normalize and regulate themselves they

actually started putting teams together which was this was a remarkable thing that a couple of teams whatever self-selected teams and i asked no i was like no you know the kids are those teams lopsided and he was like no unbelievable in fact are all the good players famous to good players. Not at all, in fact. This is what they do in yard in school. This is what they do if they're left to their own devices. That doesn't mean that they don't need coaching and coaches aren't important.

But I just think we need to allow them more room before we rush in. And I liken it to someone, you know, you go to a Michelin star restaurant like I've never been, but I'm sure it's lovely. And you get the plate in front of you and you immediately salt and pepper it. And you're like, hang on, you haven't tasted it yet.

You're just putting salt and pepper on something. you haven't tasted it yeah and i think we do a lot of that with the kids yeah right they need this they need that and you know we don't know we don't know and i had it i had a chat there a while back with a few coaches only a couple weeks ago and i said how many of you in the room coach underage all their hands with up it was a you know how many of you in the room ask your your kids,

at the start of the session okay guys what do you want to do today and most of the hands stayed up and I said how many of you with your most of the hands how many of you have the answer back from the kids that we want to play a game and all those hands stayed up and I said how many of you actually play a game and all the hands went down, I said you've just asked them what would you like to do they've come to football training or soccer or basketball and they say we want to play a game and then

what do they hear yeah we will but first. You've just killed them I mean you've taken away that moment of oh I'm listening to you want to play a game Right, let's go straight into the game. Right, we've got 20 of you. What kind of games should we play? Will we set up two matches or one? Two matches. All right, so if we have two matches, that's 10. Right, all of a sudden they feel like I'm involved.

I have a voice. I'm being listened to. They don't know these things are happening, but they know something's happening, but they can't put quite, you know, but it's like, that was good. They get into the car and like, we did something, you know? Yeah, yeah. We did, I contributed to that session. They still can't quite put their finger on it because they're only smallies, but they're being treated differently to where they may be are treated elsewhere.

Yes. And that's what I say to sports or clubs.

Can you be the sport or the club that makes that child think, do you know what? Because they'll have to choose at some point if they're playing lots, when second school and all of a sudden things, you know, the things start coming into play. They'll have to choose. They'll choose the club and the sport where they're felt like. Most comfortable. I was listened to. Yeah. I was. And yet so many coaches okay boy welcome girls welcome boys what do you want to do we'll play a game.

But first though. Yeah. Yeah. It's killer. Yeah. It's killer. Yeah. And even just the sense of autonomy, like the kids are making a choice. They've been asked a question. They've made a decision. They said, yeah, we're going to do this. And now, well, no, hold tough now. You have to do all the other stuff first that I want you to do. And then we might play a game as a reward after. And we'll play the game when you're wrecked, you know? And we'll play the game when it's all, you know?

Yeah. It's interesting. But so basically, like for coaches now that are working in those age, groups if you were to emphasize these couple of things that you've been speaking about is the is the movement and giving them that bit of more more freedom to explore their movement and explore the ball and it should be it should be disorganized i think is a key point that you're making there it shouldn't look someone i always make that point when you walk in the gate of an under 8 or under 10 session

it should not look beautifully organized there should be a little bit of carnage going on within reason obviously and the movement i think you've like you that that that's a really key point about emphasizing the need for, for them to explore all the different types of movement. They're not, they're just not being explored to.

If we look at, if we look at sport and think of who are the most efficient movers in the world and so far, we would think, okay, straight line runners, sprinters, all their whole thing about hundred meter sprinters is go from A to B as fast as possible with as minimum.

So we're thinking these people, all they ever do with their lives is be even more and more and more and more efficient you know and yet if you look at the 100 metre final in the last number of Olympic games not a single one of them run the same way no, yet we go to a ball sport and tell them no no you need to and then you gotta get your and then you have to and we're like. In a second, this is even more, far more complex than running because you're having to run and kick.

And we're telling us that there's only one way to do it. And we're actually giving them explicit instruction how to do it. Yeah. And yet the people in the world whose sole job is to be efficient with their movement, they don't even all do it the same way. Yeah. Yeah. None of them do. And they even look at someone like a Michael Johnson. No one would coach someone how to run like Michael Johnson. Complete poker, straight upright body.

But that was the brilliance of his coach. should be like i'm not changing him that's how he runs my job is to actually just get the most out of how he runs don't make him run like carl lewis because he's not carl lewis yeah don't make you know johan blake run like usain bolt because they're not and so all of these people and i and i go to another domain every and i say this to my students inside when we're doing it we have a module that this comes up and i said to them how many people

here have been gone have gone through primary school and secondary school in ireland most if not all the hands go up how many people here so learned how to write in primary school in ireland all the hands stay up so you all went through the exact same curriculum about how to write with all the same pages and all this and i mean the curriculum for writing in ireland is down to a t excuse the pun it's down to a t it's like it's such an

exact it's like a science i said so hands up if you write like the right now sentence. Hands up if you've written if your handwriting is the exact same as the person next to you. Sure, no one's handwriting is the same. Yet they've all been put, and we are, anyone in Ireland, everyone knows the exact cursive and the perfect and we're all almost identical in third and fourth and fifth class when we're doing it. None of our handwriting looks the same. Yeah, yeah.

And yet and then we go into an open environment like a skill-based sport, like curling, football, basketball, whatever, and we're telling them that there's one way to do it. And we're actually doing it by giving them explicit instruction about how to do it, like the way I do it is the way you should do it.

It's carnage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's that idea of ideal technique, I think, that would have been pushed out there a little bit like the ages and stages model, that by 10, you should be able to do this, by 12, you should be able to do this.

And again, I think it's kind of moved on, though now there's more of an acceptance that there isn't just one way to kick a ball or to throw a ball or to whatever it might be, I've spoken about him already Phil Kearney and a couple of his colleagues in UL have done some lovely stuff around and I think.

It's linking in with a few other people in fact actually around who are the people, I think they initially looked at Kerry football and looked at all the guys who came through senior inter-county football and stuff like this and they went back and were like how many of these guys actually played Kerry, under 21, minor, and underage. And all of a sudden, they began to realize, hang on, there's loads of guys who played senior football for Kerry who never played minor, who never played under 16.

And yet, when you're in that environment, oh, this is, you know, if I get dropped at under 16, I'm done. Hang on, there's loads of guys. And then all of a sudden, they're now looking at it beyond that.

There's loads of counties who've senior inter-county players across all four codes who never played at the underage, level to at the representative level in the same way we have a story like loads of rugby players like hugo keen and there was a hilarious thing came out with hugo keen in a few years ago that he was in the fourth team in under 14s or third or fourth team in under 14s in beck to range or something like this right

he's regarded as one of the greatest all blacks in the world at the full back in the world at the moment like yeah who so who was picking him out of a lineup at 14 like saying he's going to be one of the key pillars of one of the most successful Irish rugby teams ever. Because they were like, well, hardly. There's a whole three other teams ahead of him better.

Yeah. So we just have to, I think we just need to calm down a little bit, you know, calm down a little bit with the kids and create environments where they explore themselves. Through the sport that they're there to play. You don't expect a kid to go to soccer and be, you know, wielding tennis rackets and hockey sticks. I get that. Yeah. But allow them to find out about soccer there, you know, and everything about soccer, like, you know, and how they interact with the

ball and so on and so forth. Yeah. And, yeah, and obviously as we get a little bit older and we're talking, like you spoke about at the start in terms of the context and those skills really come to fruition when we can, you know, there's decision making involved in the execution of the skill so we're talking about putting them into those game situations and like again to move it up the line to we'll say our 16s 17s 18s and beyond into

your county 20s seniors you know senior club rugby whatever it might be you're then talking about, most of your practice time with teams are all based around games basically right, GameSense Coaching is a GA coaching platform that advocates for a games-based approach that is suitable for teams of all ages.

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You can find out more at www.gamesensecoaching.com or on Twitter at GAAsense. Use the code GAMESENSE23 to get 20% off all packages. Yeah, the terms that we're seeing from the research is that put them in scenarios where they are practicing decision-making and problem-solving.

So are you... I remember doing a session years back with Coach was running a session that i was attending and he was like how how are you how are you quantifying your session and of course we were all like thinking well i quantify but how many meters they cover and how many how long were they spent on this and we were all very we were all delighted about our metrics and he was like how many of you count the number of decisions that they make and i mean that there's about 25 coaches and we're all

like how do you mean and he was like he picked out one one of the lads show me your what you would traditionally do in this situation and he kind of mapped out what he would do and he said right so there's no decision there because you're telling him where to go and then there's no decision for that guy's because you're telling him who he who he needs to pass to and they said all i'm saying is that that scenario that you created there is predicted.

It's already set out so all of a sudden within a couple of goals there is no decision making or problem solving because you've you've you've outlined the whole task for them you said if you if we know reverse engineer that into a game or a scenario that might happen in a game, now look at the amount of decisions they make and all of a sudden exponentially just went from, no real decisions because you're telling them i got a a passes to b through the gates over to c over

the bar running back around or a but you know this type of stuff yeah and all of a sudden he changed it and he just all he did was he manipulated said well what kind of a scenario might this happen in a game and they were like well that might happen but you'd have to have somebody in there and okay well put somebody in there and well then that might happen and And all of a sudden he said, OK, so we went from a situation where we were using four players in that game and we had four guys waiting.

So now that we were waiting and he said, all we did was we just made it a bit more like what would happen in the game.

Exponentially problems began to be raised and decisions needed to be made and i was like oh that's totally different and all of a sudden now they're they're still doing the same essential idea i need to get the ball over the bar into the area over the try line but now they're having to do it having to engage with the same cognitive type of hang on perceive i've got to perceive this and then act on that and give it or don't give it or pass it or don't pass it, hold on to it.

All of a sudden now there was so many decisions that needed to be made and loads of problems that needed to be solved. If that's how your practice is, that very much will translate into that environment where actually where do I need my good problem-solving and decision-making in a game on a Saturday afternoon.

And I liken it to an analogy I heard years ago. Someone said to me, you know, Ed, if someone came into you and said, Oh, I've never seen Gaelic football, Ed. Can you, you know, never. I'm from the Amazon. Can you explain it to me? What is it? And I'd be like, oh, wait till you see this game. 15 v 15. Huge pitch. One ball. I mean, it's just man on man everywhere. There's loads. There's a goal, three points in that over the bar. They can shoot from anywhere.

Some scores are going to be, oh, wow, geez. Sounds like it's going to be, oh, 70 minutes, 35, up and down. These guys will cover, you know.

And then they go and watch a training session. it's all drills and they're like when's the gaelic football thing that you described because that's nothing like you just described you know and as you said earlier i'd like someone like that to be just to have them describe what rugby hurling football basketball whatever it is this is what the game is and then if they went to a practice be like oh that's exactly how you described it and and all it might be is it's not

that we have to play 11 v 11 15 v 15 5 v 5 all the time based on the sport it's scenarios that might happen yeah it's different problems that might happen that may be an analysis of the previous game and i know we're talking about now in that old rage group yeah analysis the previous game you know and again it's something we see when we go in and do work with coaches i'll ask them so can you talk to me about tonight's session oh every session it does a b c d and i'm like right can you talk to

me about last week's game and they'll tell me about what happened the game i'm like, Hang on. So last week's game, he shipped this many scores and didn't, you know, and so there's a clear issue with defense. And yet you're still putting defense in for only 12 minutes in the middle of the session, which you do it all the time. Surely you start with defense and you'll work with it until you feel like you've moved it just a little bit.

You know, you're not going to solve it all in one night, but you start like the previous game informs the next session. And it's not a breakdown into drills of the previous game. It's the scenarios of the previous game informs the next session. So create scenarios. And again, all those scenarios are with people, opposition. If a team is struggling and defense is really poor, I'm not going to start the session with 6v6.

They're clearly struggling. I'm going to be like, okay, so look, we're going to give the defense an extra man.

We're going to go 6v5 or maybe even 6v4. but we're still going to give them something realistic to play against six v zero doesn't help anybody like yeah then they're just being chess pawns being moved around the place like you know yeah so all as much as i can i'm trying to keep the essence of the game if i can't keep it fully if i can't be faithful to the full execution of the game no problem because maybe they're not able for it i will reduce it down and i'll

reduce i'll simplify it so that but i'm not i'm going to simplify it only to the point that the game is still alive in in there you know yes yes if i simplify it too much then it's that amazonian person like that looks nothing like what happens i'm like well then we've lost it we're actually the disconnect has been too much yeah so now if the disconnect is too much in how we practice it the reconnect will be too far to travel when they go back into play.

Okay. Yeah. And that's what I'm always trying to do. Can we keep the connection between what they'll experience in the game? We may have to refine it a little bit. Yeah. But if we refine it too much, it'll be too far away from what they'll experience. Okay. And that's, that's that challenge, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that's a great, that's a great message is, is, yeah, we, we have to keep the practice connected to the game in,

in, in some shape or form. Obviously, there's different degrees of it, but that has to be there all the time.

And even just to take, because I know now people will be saying, okay, well, I want to get my kids or my 18-year-olds there. You know, when we get tired at the end of a game, we miss shots. We miss whatever, shots at basketball or shots in Gaelic football or soccer or whatever. Our shooting is erratic. So I'm going to do 15 minutes in our session where everybody's got to kick 10 shots.

Now, there's no pressure. It's just one It's just me and a ball And the goals And again like we said At the start, That's okay. But if we wanted to make that a little bit more context specific and more relevant to the game, well, now maybe there's a defender in there that's trying to give you a bit of pressure or something to that extent. And now that's becoming a little bit more relevant to what we're trying to do.

As the word you use, the connection, I've now made that task that little bit more connected to what happens in the game. And I guarantee you, if we had our six forwards, all right, lads, shoot was terrible last week. Everyone get out of the back. Backs, you're in the back of the goal to unlock. You're just kicking the balls back out to the forwards. Of course, you're never going to be allowed to shoot. You know what I mean? This kind of stuff. And they're popping the balls and it looks amazing.

I guarantee you, if you just took three of the backs out and the six forwards and randomly said, just put a little bit of, I'd say the scoring will go down.

And then it's just that patience of right lads we're going to keep doing this till we feel you're able to absorb that little bit of pressure we're not taking now if three is too much and they're getting nothing we'll take it to two you know but if it's if it goes to six v zero i'm thinking there's something significantly wrong here lads because we're not in the game no again anymore like you know yeah i'm always trying to see okay i've got my six forwards who are doing they're shooting, lovely,

I'm going to put something out there and maybe, do you know what? I'm putting the injury guys at the back of the goal because I'm going to put 6v6 out there because actually we've evolved it up but I'm trying to have that connection as much as possible. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah, I know that. And just as you're talking there, I'm thinking, is it better to do something like that towards the end of a session when people are tired or do it at the start of the session when people are fresh and they have that bit of energy or does it matter? Yeah, I think like anything else, I love variability. I love it. I love the surprise element. Lads, we're starting with shooting. And again, starting with, but it's not just shooting on its own.

It's, we're going straight in. Everyone's warmed up. S&C guys had his time. Lovely. Everyone's ready. We're all good. No one's going to get injured. We're going into it. Three backs against six forwards and it's just trying to, and even just that, you're going to have forwards who are going to have a free shot, which happens in the game every so often because they got into space. Lovely. But then you're going to have forwards who might be double teamed because two of the backs pick one guy.

Lovely. But that's where, again, it becomes decision-making. I'm like, actually, hang on. There's two of them here. I'm actually going to try and lose one and then I'll take a shot. I'm going to try. I'm actually just going to take an extra solo. I'm going to say, oh, there's nobody on me. I'm going to go in closer and I'm going to take an easier shot. All these things happen when the context is dialed up just a little bit as we continue to dial it up to game mode.

Then that's where we would hope to see some of these skills translating into when the context is, again, even more real and when there's a referee and there's an opposition that we don't play with all the time and things like that. Yeah. No, that's brilliant. I think that's a great message, though, just to, again, just to keep reiterating with people because, as we've said, it's certainly moving in the right direction, but that idea of we're moving away from the idea of isolated skill practices.

That there's, there may, I'm sure there probably is some certain amount of improvement that can be derived in the technique within doing that. But in terms of really developing high skill, I don't know that you can really separate high skill and, and, and, and a high decision maker, a good decision maker. There's, there's, there has to be, it has to be linked there, obviously. Oh yeah.

I know for sure. For sure. Because again, if you're a really good decision maker, when are you making decisions you're probably making decisions in heavily context scenarios which then has an impact on your capacity to execute the skill that's required in that moment of time which might be different the next time you have something another shot you know there's no two kicks are ever the same and so on and so forth and i think that's where that goes back to that idea if a

young child is saying you know mom dad will you drop me up to the pitch i want to go up with a bag of balls you know feel your boots yeah yeah don't get in the way of that self-selected self-directed practice because you know what they're going up there and they are in the aviva in that moment they're in croke park in that moment they're in you know what i mean yeah yeah.

If they're if they ask for you know and i get i look i do as you can imagine i get asked at times for me ed you know my young flea he's doing this and what would you ask him to do and he said well watch it and I'll always say what's he doing at the moment but he loves doing this if he loves doing it what do you want me to do like yeah yeah you want me to change something that he loves doing like yeah now if you tell me he said he used to love doing this but he's kind of gone off it now

then I'll have a chat let's try and find the next thing he loves yeah about the game that he's like a kid is choosing to go and do some practice on the road yeah get out of their way like yeah it is and that but And that's the point then when if I'll always ask, do you have a buddy, do you have a brother or sister or someone who can go with you? That's even better. Why? Cause they will add variability into it. They won't be in the same place.

Every time you look up to passes to them, they'll be in a different place when you're looking for the, for the ball to come from them. You might have to go a little closer cause they can't reach you. You might have to go. Yeah. So that's, At even senior inter-county level, I'm a big fan of that buddy system, you know? Who in the county team is with you, is in the same club as you. Not in the same club, but in the same estate that you grew up in.

Not in the same estate, but they actually work in the same company. You can get out at lunchtime. Go with them. It adds that extra little bit of variability, an extra little bit of real-life context that you can't substitute, you know?

Yeah yeah and and that's and it's and that's all i'm ever saying i say to people all the time inside every drill there's a game wanting to get out you know yeah there is if you could just take that yeah there is is like you know and i've seen all the drills that you could do i've seen them i used to them she's like like i'm not standing here saying i've made all the mistakes mike because i'm sure you don't like i i've made all like i

i look back at some of the things i've done and you know but it's it's it's actually then that moment of hang on a second i've got them for one hour i've got them for one hour and i'm doing a task here that you know a quarter a third of them do it and then the second third and then the third third and then they're waiting for two like so you're only on for a third and so they're here for an hour but actually they're waiting for a lot hang on a

second what am i doing what do how can i change this so that is actually so it's not around the pole, even the simplest of things like, you know, and I've seen them, you have to go through gates, you have to go around the pole, put a person on the pole and they've got to do that. They've got to move left to right, but you don't know until you're about two meters out. Yes. All of a sudden they've got to decide, oh, I've got to.

Yeah. And now we're, we've just, we've just, just turned the dial up on that a little bit by replacing a pole with a person, replacing a cone with a person, replacing a cone with.

Yeah no there's always hangers on as you know there's always people standing around looking for something to do some mum or dad drinking a coffee or something we'll pull them in get in here, I love I love and I think it's a great way to finish I love the idea of counting the decisions I used I had a thing years ago a good number of years ago no more than yourself where I was I had a thing about counting the touches count the number of touches that

we had and getting kids to you know just whatever they were doing bouncing a ball and I'd have people with a clicker just to see how many times kids were actually touching a ball during a session. Yeah, yeah. Trying to get it up over a certain kind of a number.

But the idea of counting the decisions, and I know obviously they're a little bit more harder to quantify, but wouldn't that be a brilliant exercise for people to actually do in their own club and get somebody to help out on the side and just pick one or two kids, don't tell them anything, and just run through roughly, click away in terms of how many decisions they have to make with a ball, without a ball, do I go defend do I go and catch do I go and pass shoot score

like it'd be it'd be a fascinating exercise you hit the nail on the head there it's not only when they have the ball have you recognised that the that child actually was like oh I. Stopped their run and then turned to go back because that was a decision oh actually we're caught the ball's coming over the top you know and the brilliant thing with the coach who told me about this and challenged the coaches that were there that day he was like the one thing you will find is when you have

to when you have to really engage with how many decisions have been made he said you can't do much talking it was brilliant, you're actually having to truly watch the session you dial down your own noise because you're like oh, and he said all of a sudden you'll find yourself I didn't actually say that much there during that last five minute period you know what you don't need to, They're engaged in the task because I'm actually engaged in how is it working?

Is it working well or not? Could I actually add in a little bit more complexity to add in even more decisions that need to be made, more problems that need to be solved? And I think that actually led me to develop the peak model, which is, and it's something we've been sharing a lot with, and you taught here a lot about parents, and it's something that I try and share a lot is P-E-A-Q is the peak model for coaching.

And it's generally for all types of coaches, but we've been finding that it's really good, useful for novice coaches. And what it is, is to praise a lot, but not too much. The P is to praise a lot and not too much. So if you praise them doing something well and they do it again, let them off. They don't need this constant praise. You know, little Johnny being told that's an amazing painting. And it's like, what was it? You know, or it is great, but then just leave it alone.

Praise but then you know and what what comes from the praise is if they do something wrong leave them off and i dave love the basketball shooting coach in the nba has a brilliant one he said i coach habits not mistakes i love that and that links to that praise element i'm not going to coach mistakes it's just a mistake now if it's a habit that they do it repeatedly, over a number of times and days and sessions then i'm going to step in and coach but if i'm just going to coach every time they

make a mistake and they miss a pass or they miss a kick then i'm not coaching i'm just nitpicking that's not coaching so so praise is a big part of this model the next one is explore e for explorer make sure the kids have time to explore the task that you've set them set the task get out of the way let them explore if it's not working stay away let them try and figure the flipping thing out but what we do is oh it's not

working i better go in and fix it I'll start moving them around like a joystick you stand there, you stand there because it's not working, which looks bad on me you know, my stuff works and you're not making it work, you know that type of way? so the E is for explore. The A is for affirmation, which is to connect the dots, that word again, connect the dots. So why do we praise? You know, so great kick, Mary. Why was it a great kick? Well, that's the affirmation.

So great run, Mary. Why was it a great run? So great run, Mary. You created space. An affirmation. Give them the reason why you praise them. What we tend to do, idle praise. There's lots of research around idle praise just turns into white noise. They don't really hear it.

Praise with an affirmation it's a connection to why you praise them so that's that that last part and then the final one is cue for question and the this is a really challenging one for coaches especially novice coaches and maybe all coaches because i still will chat i'm still challenged about this to only engage with the kids or the athletes who whatever age through questions, don't tell them what to do can you and again back to that coach who taught us about the the the first one.

It quietens you down massively because now I'm on the sideline of trying to think, what's the question I need to ask that kid? Not rushing, come out, push in, as opposed to, are you happy with your position there? You know? Who's marking four? That's very different. And again, the answer, the example we use, if you ask a player, are you happy with your position there? The first thing they're going to do is they're going to look left and right. Will I have my?

If I tell him, move up, he's going to move up and he won't know why he moved up. So if we can engage through peak, praise them. Yeah, but not too much. Give them time to explore. Use affirmations to explain why did you praise them in the first place? And then engage with them in questions only. Now, that's the hard one. Can you go through? And I start with the coaches. Can you do five minutes with only questions?

How long will it take you to do a full one hour session on a Saturday morning where you only ask questions? It's a challenge. It's a challenge. And, but the feedback we're getting from it, it's incredible. They're like, I'm camera training because I'm not, feel like I have to have all the answers because I've got the coach on the back and the, I just, all I've got to do is just ask some good questions. And then we get, Ed, what if they can't answer the question?

The question was too hard. Ask an easier question. You know, like you'll have some parents and oftentimes it's dads.

We don't have enough mums, Mike. that's the other thing when you need more moments to get on the sideline yeah the dads you know, he didn't ask what question did he ask him I was just trying you know lads where's our formation where's the diamond gone I'm like what age group are we talking about here man you know he's talking about diamond formations and there's no penetration coming through the midfield I'm like hang on a second I thought you were with the under nines I am you're talking

to the under nines about penetration through the midfield hang on a second man you're you know yeah. Ask them a question if they don't get if they don't get the answer, it means your question wasn't good enough. Ask an easier question. Keep going till you find the question they can answer and then work it back up to more difficult questions, more challenging questions. So that's something that we try and get more and more novice coaches and even elite level coaches.

Can you coach the peak model? Can you actually engage with that? Yeah. Yeah. And the questioning thing is brilliant.

And like, obviously it's great for the coach, but like what it does for the kids to actually have to think about the question and formulate an answer and then say okay well I think it's this and then they have to articulate their point and the value that that places on them and their opinion in the session it's just it's all good really you know it is as you said it's more interaction it's not dictatorship anymore yes they're not there,

fulfilling the wishes of the coach what kind of a crazy world would that be for kids I'm going to training on a Saturday morning but I'm there to fulfill the wish no at that age group it's our job to. Utterly facilitate their enjoyment of this session? How can I enhance their experience? And I can do that by maybe probing some questions so they actually have to truly engage with their surroundings now. You know?

Brilliant. Ed, I'm probably going a little bit over time and apologies for that. Thanks very much. I really appreciated that, and I know you're very busy, so I appreciate you finding the time. Pleasure. Before I go, I would have said it in the introduction as well.

I'm doing this, I suppose, as a fundraiser as well as you know trying to help out coaches and parents and everybody that's involved in kind of sport but I'm asking people who enjoyed that or any of the episodes that I would have done to contribute through the fundraising link in the bio or on my social media stuff it's all going towards an orphanage in Tanzania called Tiernan Oog it's actually run by a Trilly girl a Kerry lady called

Louise Quill she'd be the sister of Declan Quill who would have been one of the joint managers with the Kerry ladies who won the All-Ireland last year Louise from Tanzania years and years ago as a student was horrified by the poverty that had kind of you know fallen in that country and the children in particular and she took it upon herself to set up an orphanage and that's still going 20, 25 years later Brilliant and has done incredible work so just for people And

my credit to you credit to you for spotlighting charities like this it's a brilliant unique the unique thing that you're doing with the podcast in fairness I have to say it's brilliant and something like this I would never have heard of that only for you never and that's what's so cool about it. So fair play to you. Appreciate it. Thank you. So that's it. Thanks a million again and really appreciate your time. Cheers, Mikey. Music.