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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Noah. [SPEAKER_04]: This is Devin. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Lily. [SPEAKER_04]: In today's episode, a question that nags at me every time I sit in one of their chairs. [SPEAKER_04]: Are dentists scamming us? [SPEAKER_04]: we dig into the dental industry surprisingly dark history. [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the replacement teeth were from corpses. [SPEAKER_04]: We hear from someone who uncovered a dentist drilling healthy teeth for profit.
[SPEAKER_04]: How did I let the happen to me 20-A-Roo canals? [SPEAKER_04]: I must be stupid. [SPEAKER_04]: And I talk with a startup founder who's trying to blow up the entire industry. [SPEAKER_04]: Going to the dentist is one of the biggest scams of our modern time. [SPEAKER_04]: All right, so in the studio today, we're joined by a friend of the pod. [SPEAKER_04]: A license therapist in the writer of the reality test newsletter. [SPEAKER_04]: Lily Kaplan. [SPEAKER_02]: Hi guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome home. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so happy to be back. [SPEAKER_04]: You may remember Lily from the, do I need therapy episode? [SPEAKER_04]: So we're glad to have you back for a discussion that has nothing to do with therapy. [SPEAKER_02]: I love that. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: But, Lily, actually specifically we want you on this episode. [SPEAKER_04]: because at many of me as baby shower a few weeks ago, at the after-afters, we were all gathered around the table.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was complaining about dentists and saying, hey, I think they're trying to scam me. [SPEAKER_04]: I think dentists were scammers. [SPEAKER_04]: We had some other people in the group saying, yeah, dentists were scamming us. [SPEAKER_04]: And we had one dentist defender at the table. [SPEAKER_04]: We had one person who said, guys, they're doing what they think is best. [SPEAKER_04]: They care about your oral care.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're trying to prevent things from getting worse. [SPEAKER_04]: And that was you, Lily. [SPEAKER_04]: You were defending the dentists, which was, I thought an interesting take to have. [SPEAKER_04]: Because you're like brave. [SPEAKER_04]: Dentists have, as we'll talk about in this episode, a pretty negative reputation. [SPEAKER_04]: But you, you came in there, you know, supporting them and speak it up for them. [SPEAKER_02]: Voice to the voice list.
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that my take on dentistry is a bit of a defense, a bit of a yo-yo from where I use to sit.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I've struggled with a bit more than a bit of [SPEAKER_02]: Throughout my life, so I've been super, super, super avoidant of dentists, which has caused some problems for my teeth, and I had to get like a whole bunch of work done on my mouth, which was pretty painful and terrible, and I had to really overcome my fear of dentists and going to the dentist.
[SPEAKER_02]: I find it a very vulnerable experience to go to the dentist, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think coming off of that like I was not especially that night and probably still I'm not emotionally prepared to have the view that dentistry is this game because I was so far in the other direction of like I will not go to the dentist. [SPEAKER_02]: I can not go to the dentist. [SPEAKER_02]: I can't handle the dentist.
[SPEAKER_02]: that the dentist did become truly necessary and now I would say I'm of the mind that like you should go so that you don't end up like me too similar to go. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no talk a story. [SPEAKER_04]: What are your dentists interactions been like over the years I'm over the past few years None, okay. [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going I'm booked.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm booked to go Soon long wait list Yes, which which I that was new because in the past I've been able to help right over there Yeah, yeah, so I didn't have any trauma with that I never minded going, but I never [SPEAKER_05]: It was just more of an inconvenient thing to do, but I did feel like my teeth worked cleaner after. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: So basically, you're going in for questions, not regularly as we're hearing.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's more laziness than, you know, than like a mistrust, distrust. [SPEAKER_04]: Hmm. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay. [SPEAKER_04]: So the reason we're doing this episode is because of my experience with the dentist.
[SPEAKER_04]: For most of my life up to up to the high school I had pretty limited interactions with dentists never had cavities besides when I was like Okay, so I was just going for cleanings until my senior year of high school Where transport ourselves to the bowling alley in New Jersey Where it's the final frame for me and my friends we're going head to head [SPEAKER_04]: And I am tied for last place.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you're a bowling head, you know, the one rule of bowling with your friends is you don't want to come in last. [SPEAKER_04]: So I just need to hit one to not come in less. [SPEAKER_04]: So I said, okay, I just don't get a gutter ball. [SPEAKER_04]: That's pretty easy. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know why in my mind, you know, I think I want to be a little bit of a jokester, too. [SPEAKER_04]: So I was like, let me, let me grainy ball it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So are you familiar with brainy balling? [SPEAKER_02]: Is that where you do it between your legs? [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, yes, you put two hands on a ball.
[SPEAKER_04]: You sort of get your legs nice and wide, and you sort of, [SPEAKER_04]: pull it the ball between your legs and then push it out so I did that and I slipped fell on my face because my hands were up remember when you were any ball your your hands are going to sure so there are above my head and chipped three or four of my teeth like on a on a diagonal and I know it sounds horrific it did not hurt at all
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I was a new one immediately at my teeth came out because I could feel there was a gap But I wasn't bleeding and there was no pain and the worst part is I went over the line Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. [SPEAKER_04]: So it didn't even count. [SPEAKER_02]: So you also lost You lost more than your 40. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah [SPEAKER_04]: Little did I know the trajectory that would put me on it because replacing teeth is very, very expensive.
[SPEAKER_04]: So even with insurance at the time, I ended up having to spend like three or four grand out of pocket for it. [SPEAKER_04]: And the thing that people don't think about when you get down to work is that it's not a one and done. [SPEAKER_04]: if you get it done right, like every 10 years or so. [SPEAKER_04]: So, and you're paying thousands of dollars every 10 years or so to get those teeth for place.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, I've gone into just for place to crown, but my dentist has been really, really trying to get me through a place all of my fake teeth, because she's like, I just wanna do a mall, make it all look, you know, the color will match better, I can make the match better. [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, okay, they're ready. [SPEAKER_04]: That sounds fun. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: Like, let's find out. [SPEAKER_04]: How much is that going to cost?
[SPEAKER_04]: She's like, okay, they run through the insurance, they get an estimate, it's like seven or eight grand. [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, now let's just do the ones. [SPEAKER_04]: They don't have like a bundle deal. [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_05]: I was like, you know, think if they're already all the tools around. [SPEAKER_04]: You're ready to better.
[SPEAKER_04]: If there's only to be slightly more expensive, you know, like why not do it? [SPEAKER_05]: Well, then they're all on the same timeline. [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_04]: So I told them now. [SPEAKER_04]: Then you know, they're trying to convince me you can do a payment. [SPEAKER_04]: I was like, I don't care if it's paying it right now or over a year. [SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to pay seminary grand on teeth just for fun. [SPEAKER_02]: Buy him on Clarna.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: I'll pay later. [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_04]: It's like, I'm still paying. [SPEAKER_04]: So, no, thank you. [SPEAKER_04]: So, they, you know, they seem to get the message. [SPEAKER_04]: I come back. [SPEAKER_04]: And the thing when you're getting teeth to place, you have to, as you know, when you're going to work done, you have to go in multiple times. [SPEAKER_04]: So, either go in like three or four times for this crown.
[SPEAKER_04]: And every time I would go in, [SPEAKER_04]: It was as if I had not had the conversation with them that they were only doing the one-two. [SPEAKER_04]: So they would down to the last time I was going in to get my permanent end, the dentist was like, okay, so this is gonna take a bit longer because we're doing all these teeth. [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it just felt, and I had liked, I've been going to the dentist for like two or three years now. [SPEAKER_04]: I've liked that dentist up to this point, but it just to me felt very scammy.
[SPEAKER_04]: in a way that like I've been very clear of you that and I was I was pulling that I can't afford it you know I was like that's going to shut it down like you know you could say whatever you want about like the cosmetics of it I was like I can't afford this right now I just I just can't afford to do it and the fact that they were still bringing it up every single time I was like something's going on here.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I have talked to other people who've been like, oh, yeah, I've been going to the dentist for years. [SPEAKER_04]: It's been fine. [SPEAKER_04]: I go to his random dentist. [SPEAKER_04]: He says I have all these cavities, so I have to get all these cavities filled. [SPEAKER_04]: So I guess with this episode, what I want to look into is... [SPEAKER_04]: is there a dental standard? [SPEAKER_04]: What are dentists actually doing when they're in your mouth, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: How do they determine you need a cavity filled, right? [SPEAKER_04]: Is there some sort of standard or are they just free styling? [SPEAKER_04]: And then I also want to deal with this idea of dental insurance and why all these experiences that I've had, I've always had dental insurance and I'm still paying thousands of dollars out of pocket. [SPEAKER_04]: Why doesn't dental insurance cover more of my oral care?
[SPEAKER_04]: So we're gonna take a break and we'll get back right on walk you through my deep dive into the world of dentistry. [SPEAKER_04]: We'll hear about the history. [SPEAKER_04]: I'll talk to a dentist to find out a colleague was giving his patients unnecessary root nails and a cat with a guy who says his startup will blow up the industry. [SPEAKER_04]: All that after the break. [SPEAKER_04]: All right, we are back.
[SPEAKER_04]: We have a lot to get into in this episode, but first, I wanted to try to learn how to hell we got here, so I called up journalists, AJ Jacobs, for history lesson. [SPEAKER_01]: Well I like the premise, because for instance, I went to the dentist and they told me I had to get my tooth out, like how am I supposed to know whether that's true or not? [SPEAKER_04]: So AJ used to write this column for this magazine called Mental Floss.
[SPEAKER_01]: and the column was called the bad old days because the premise was that the good old days were not good. [SPEAKER_01]: They were terrible. [SPEAKER_01]: They were dangerous. [SPEAKER_01]: They were racist, sexist, smelly. [SPEAKER_01]: They were just horrible. [SPEAKER_01]: Painful. [SPEAKER_04]: And every month he would cover a new topic and one of his most memorable moments was when he covered dentistry.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't like going to the dentist, but I certainly don't like reading about the history of dentistry because it is just horrible. [SPEAKER_04]: So let's say it's a 17th century, you're having an issue with one of your teeth. [SPEAKER_04]: They just said you would typically go to a barber surgeon.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which was a combination of a barber and a surgeon and dentistry was often lumped in with surgery because you're taking [SPEAKER_04]: stuff out of the body that was basically surgery and an important thing to note is that during this time period doctors did not perform surgery so the church viewed surgery is being unclean because you were touching bodily fluids so Barbara surgeons were seen as being more similar to something like a blacksmith.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, back to our roleplay, if you have a two-fake name and rip your two-fout basically with no anesthetic at all, or... Maybe they'd give you some whiskey, or something even weirder. [SPEAKER_01]: For some reason, in the 17th, 18th century, medical practitioners were obsessed with animals. [SPEAKER_01]: There's not a huge overlap between your teeth and your butt, but they just were like, let's shoot things off the butt and see if that helps the teeth.
[SPEAKER_04]: So Barbara surgeons were basically your best case scenario back then because there are also some straight-up grifters.