Hi and welcome to the Midlife Feast , the podcast for women who are hungry for more in this season of life . I'm your host , Dr Jenn Salib-Huber . I'm an intuitive eating dietitian and naturopathic doctor , and I help women manage menopause without dieting and food rules .
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Come with me as I dig into the back of my closet and find an old jean jacket Not just any old jean jacket the jean jacket that I wore for years in my 20s and early 30s , that I loved . It was my go-to . I always felt like it fit just right , no matter what I was wearing , no matter the time of year even .
But this time , when I find it buried in a box and pull it out to try it on , it doesn't even come close to fitting and in that moment I get swept into the trap door that is grieving for my younger body , the body that I used to have , that fit this jean jacket perfectly .
And so , even though seconds before I was probably feeling okay in my body , that moment , that experience catapulted me into what we call body grief .
So if you can relate to that and I'm sure there are lots of you who can you will really enjoy this conversation with Nina Manelson , who is a body piece and really body grief and just body talk expert and coach .
Nina and I have , you know , kind of conversed on Instagram over the years a few times and I was thrilled when she accepted my invitation to dig a little bit deeper into body grief what it is , what it isn't and what you can do about it in those moments . So what do you do when that wave of grief washes over you ?
We have lots of examples talking about reunions and coats that don't fit and pictures , and so definitely give this one a listen . I think that it will bring you a lot of peace . Welcome , nina , to the Midlife Feast .
Jen , thank you , it's a delight to be here with you .
This is going to be a really warm and cozy conversation . Before we started recording , we were talking about kids and universities and our love of Canada and all that kind of stuff , and I know that what we're going to be talking about is going to be relatable to everyone , which is body grief .
But before we get into that , please introduce yourself to the audience .
So my name is Nina Manelson and I have worked with women and their relationship with their body for about 30 years and I started because I was an expert in body hate . So my work is called Body Peace , but it started really out of body hate because that's where I was personally . I was deep in the . My body's not okay .
I need to fix it , I need to manage it , I need to turn myself into a pretzel and so that I have this culturally idealized version of beauty that shows up as my body . So I came from a place of pain with my body and my work started actually because I was a body worker . I was a massage therapist .
I had my hands on women's bodies all day for years and I heard women's body stories and I heard them talk about their body grief . I heard them talk about their journey , their body story , and from that I became a therapist and then from that I went into nutrition and from that got into this work of really the relationship we have with our body .
Wow , that must have been really interesting being on the other side of the table , as it were , but having your hands on people's bodies and feeling their bodies as they're talking about their story , because it is an emotional experience .
It is a very emotional experience .
There's a lot of levels to it , right , because there's the emotional experience of here's somebody who's been through a journey , and the grief that's held , the anger that's held , the injury that's held , the trauma that's held right , all the feelings that are held in the body , and how often we cope with that by shutting the whole thing down .
So I have somebody , I know her still and she often , whenever she sees me , she says Do you remember a gazillion years ago when you put your hands on my body and you said , so , what do you feel ? And I said what do you mean ? And then she said you said to me like Well , what do you feel in your body ? And she was like I'm not sure what you mean .
I feel your hands on my shoulder . That's where I started . I feel your hands on my shoulder , that's where I started . Like what body ? How could I be in this body ? There was too much pain in this body . There was too much loss in this body . It was much easier . She was brilliant , you know , very like high achiever in the world .
She had chosen to just live neck up and so her journey in the work that we did together was really , how do I be in my body , how do I feel into my body , how do I have a conversation with my body ? How do I make space for all these feelings and desires and experiences ? It's a lot to be a human .
It's a lot to be a human , and it's a lot to be a human in this day and age . Yeah , you know , because my audience and I'm in midlife , but you know we're midlifers and so you know people .
I'd say somewhere anyone north of 40 can really relate to having been immersed in diet culture , immersed in the belief that your body has to or should look a certain way and that there's a moral obligation to keep trying , even if diets aren't working . Even if you're giving 110% , it's not working . It's maybe even hurting you but you should keep trying .
So often where I meet people is in this messy middle of . I know diets don't work and I don't want to be dieting anymore , and yet I also don't know what else to do .
And what I have observed and what I often point out to people is that they're I don't want to say you're focused on the wrong thing , but their version of acceptance is actually more like resignation .
So they're trying to learn to be okay with hating their body , and that's never going to be possible because we don't like uncomfortable feelings , and so your body is always going to say run away from that , do whatever you can , do not sit in this place of hating your body .
But acceptance gets held back because of the quicksand that I well , I call that quicksand grief of grieving the body that you have been trying to find your way , to find your way back to , or even just the grief of the memory of how you felt in a smaller body .
And until we can move past that , any real work of acceptance or any real undieting weight , neutral , intuitive eating work is going to be much harder . So that's why I wanted to talk to you today , because you do so much around grief .
Yeah , and I actually I want to put on the table sort of an old way that we used to think about grief . So Kubler-Ross , amazing woman who created this model around grief , talked about denial , anger , bargaining , depression and acceptance .
Right , these were the stages of grief , and what we have found over the last 10-20 years is that's not actually how it works . We don't actually go through stages , we don't actually get to this other side . What we have to do instead is learn how to walk with grief . This idea that we get through something , I think is another expectation that our culture has .
That is unrealistic . That , oh my gosh . And now I feel a loss again , because you know it was COVID and my body changed because in midlife and my waist has changed because I tripped on the ice and I sprained my ankle , and my body's mobility has changed , and that we're supposed to get to this place of like .
Okay , I'm okay with that , but really every time the weather goes a little funny and my ankle gets a little achy , I'm like bummer .
Really .
I'm still feeling that little ache that shows up . Right , I still wear a different size . That idea that we're just supposed to leap into or evolve into or do enough heavy digging with our grief , that suddenly we're at acceptance , I think , is another expectation that our society puts on us .
That is unrealistic , and what's much more powerful than that is to actually learn how to walk with grief . How do we do life with grief ? And I want you to think about a really terrible example , a heartbreaking example a mother who loses a child . They don't get over it . No one expects them to get over it . We don't . You know , it's been a while .
Just get used to it . This is the new normal . They're always carrying their child , they're always thinking of their child and there are some days where it's very hard , right . There's days where it's their birthday , it's a family holiday , right , they drive by their school and suddenly the grief is there .
So a more powerful metaphor or analogy that I love to think about it's a visual analogy is this grief in a box ? Lauren Herschel wrote about this and she talks about think of a box . This is our life .
Is the box right and there's a button , there's like a red button in the box and in the beginning the grief is big right , oh my gosh , I just went through midlife . Everything's changed . My sleep is wonky , my skin is different , my weight is different , I just . What is going on ? This is too hard to cope right .
And it's a big ball in the middle of the box and it keeps pressing on that red button , going ouch , ouch , ouch . Everywhere you turn , there's a mirror . Ouch , you go shopping for new clothes . Ouch , right , maybe years go by and you're like , oh , you know , not such a big deal . But suddenly , and so the ball shrinks in the box .
It doesn't press on that ball , that button , the pain button , as often . But suddenly you're in the attic and you find some really cute coat you had when you were 30 . You're like , oh my gosh , I forgot about that coat . I love that coat , I'm gonna put that coat on . You put that coat on . It doesn't even fit around your rib cage .
You're like , what the heck ? And suddenly the ball of grief has hit the button again .
Yeah , that's a really great way of thinking about it .
So , shifting from this idea that we're supposed to evolve through and process through grief and get to the other side , ta-da , I have done it . It's a perfect gymnast . Landing and I never go back into feeling the losses that have happened in my body is unrealistic and it's not human right .
It's not being in the flow of every day versus here's this ball and sometimes it hits . I love that . I love analogies .
Anybody who listens to the it hits . I love that . I love analogies . Anybody who listens to the podcast knows that I love analogies because visualizing that is so relatable .
It does really help us to see that , and especially the example of the coat , because I think that's happened to everyone , where you're digging things out and you find something that you love and you expect it to feel the same way . Yeah , and it's that feeling of it , doesn't ? That makes us feel like we've done something wrong .
Yeah and Jen , part of what goes on in all of this grief , especially around our body , is the fact that we do have different bodies , that we change . That . Body change is a really normal part of being a human being . And if I may , if it's okay with you , I write body piece poems .
I write about women's relationships with their bodies , and there's one poem that I would love to share . That's really about this concept that our bodies are always changing . All right , so I wrote this . It was right after COVID , when everybody was coming to me and going do something , my COVID body . I can't stand it . Do something about this , right ?
So this is called my COVID Body . I've had so many . My COVID body padded for survival . My summer body , strong from swimming . My mom stretched from growing a person . My wedding body , small from photo fear . My injured body , mobile from pain . My surgery body scarred from fighting . My winter body , soft from hibernating . My 20s body , fearless in motion .
My teen body , heavy with shame . Every day a different body adapting to this one precious life . How many bodies have you had ?
Oh my gosh , I have goosebumps . That was beautiful and so true . How many bodies have we had and how many more will we have , Hopefully right .
Hopefully that's an important thing . Where we go , I want to have the body that I had . Well , you did and you will , and , if you're very lucky , you will have many more .
Yeah , that's , that's beautiful . Thank you for sharing that . I was gonna say . What I try and remind people and even myself sometimes , when we're stuck in looking back is remind people and even myself sometimes , when we're stuck in looking back is don't forget to give the future as much time as you give the past .
And so if you're always thinking , oh , I wish that I could wear this because I wore it then , or I wish I looked like , then really trying to counter that as like a counterbalance , right , Okay . Well , what about the future ? What do you want in the future ? Not so much . What can I try and get back ? Because we can't get it back ?
Yeah , I've coined a phrase that I call being body current , and what happens is in our culture as women . Generally I don't know a lot , I only work with women , so I don't know a lot about men and body image , but I know a lot about women and body image . So what happens for women is we look back right , how I wish I was , and we look forward .
I want to fit into that dress for the wedding I am going to , a reunion . I want to fit into the thing that I wore . So we're either in a past body or a future body . What's most powerful in terms of having us be in connection with our body and her and care for her is being in our current body .
So I call it being body current and it's a practice , right ? Just like I always talk about body peace is a practice . Being current in our body is a practice because culturally we're pulled both ways . So what it requires is wait a second . What's happening in this moment for me ? What is this body saying right now ?
What's happening in my current experience and how can I support myself best ? And being body current takes like . It requires us to invite ourselves into this moment , because when we're in our current body , we are much kinder to ourselves . When we're in our past body , we get critical .
When we're in our future body we get aspirational and not necessarily realistic and a bit pressureful , and when we're body current we actually can bring our compassion to the table . Oh , I love that .
It's very much like it's a form of mindfulness , really , and being present in the here and now my body today how can I ?
take care of my body today yeah , yeah so , for even when people are working on that though , you know , and and a lot of the people who are listening are in some stage of working on that there are these trap doors that just sweep us back into grief .
Old photos , clothing , seeing reunions are a big one , and in the moment , how do we recover from those really , really big waves of grief that can come at different times ?
Yeah , yeah , so your question had the answer in it , right , it's a big wave , it's a really big wave , and what do we want to do ? We actually want to ride that wave . So there was a wonderful woman .
I lived for many years in an intentional community called Kripalu in the 90s , and there was a wonderful woman who lived there , sandra Shear , who's no longer alive , and I just like saying her name because she was such a contribution in so many ways and she created a sort of a way of thinking about how do you ride these waves , how do you ride these big
waves of feelings , how do you be in these moments where it's like whoa , hold on . Maybe I need to I don't know go back on some diet . Maybe I should get surgery . Maybe I should write these big waves that hit us , the feel like , nope , I'm doing it all wrong and I should really switch gears and start being really aggressive with myself .
And she came up with an acronym . It's a very bad acronym but it really works BRFWA breathe , relax , feel , watch and allow . So I get this invitation to a reunion and I go oh gosh , how , what ? But I'm heavier . What am I going to wear ? How's this going to work . Is she going to be the same size ? Am I going to compare myself to her ?
How's it like ? The comparison is flying high , right , it just gets to be this stressful experience . So we breathe and we notice , wow , there's a lot going on . And instead of tightening around that , we allow , right , breathe , relax and we feel it . Relax and we feel it . Oh , this is stressful for me . We allow it , breathe , relax , feel , watch and allow .
We just let it be there and name it right . That's what feeling it is . Wow , I am really scared . I'm scared people aren't going to like me anymore . I'm scared I'm going to be judged . I'm scared , I'm not enough . Right , really feel it .
All of that breathing , relax , feel , watch and allow is all about being into the soup of that wave of grief and letting us be there , because when we jump over it , we get into this aggressive experience with ourselves where we've taken a big bunch of feelings , this giant wave .
It's like taking a whole tsunami and going , ah , no , thanks , let's just put that in the closet there and I'm going to close that door and that door is going to definitely hold that tsunami in , right .
And then everybody comes home from dinner and you're making dinner and somebody says something and suddenly the tsunami and you're like really irritable and you don't know why . Well , the tsunami's been sitting in the closet , waiting for any moment to come pouring back out . So we want to make space for the waves .
I love that and that really ties in with emotional regulation right , absolutely , in that if you're just trying to keep the emotions out , it's going to take a lot of energy to maintain that and eventually you're going to lose that fight right , yeah . Yeah .
My favorite analogy for emotional regulation is the beach ball one right . I got a nice floaty beach ball right and constantly trying to keep it under the water . It doesn't work . It just keeps popping up somewhere , so we have to be with it .
That's some really great , great analogies and great advice . What else would you like people to know about body peace and body grief ? And because I feel like body talk is happening more , which I think is good , and we're not just talking about body positivity , we're talking about body neutrality more , and body acceptance and body appreciation . What is body peace ?
Such a love that body peace is feeling like you are at home in your body . And it doesn't mean I'm like ooey gooey in love , everything about my body I love . It's about being with , being connected , it's having the conversation , it's being in a positive , caring , supportive , nourishing , compassionate , current , actual relationship .
Versus the like yay , versus the like yay , like I . This is just my personal , you know . Pet peeve around the body positivity movement is , I just think it's aspirational and the body love movement it's aspirational . We're human . We don't wake up every morning going . I feel positive . Every morning . I love my body .
Any of us who have been in any partnered relationship or had a kid or a pet , any relationship , we know that not every moment is oh , it's the best right . We have natural waves in our relationship and so body peace is being able to navigate that . How do you navigate a real relationship ?
You have tools , you have relationship tools , and so that's what you , that's what we need . And , jen , one other thing I want to share , because I just can't get it out of my mind , is when we were talking about comparison right In reunions . And there's one other poem that I'm wondering if I can share with you because I think it'll , it'll relate .
It's called Am I Bigger Than Her ? Yeah , am I bigger than her ? I asked my husband as a woman passes on the street . Am I bigger than her ? I asked myself as I walk into the room , measuring up all the women Am I bigger than her ? I look at a picture of younger me , a memory on Facebook from years ago . Am I bigger than her , I'm asking .
Am I less attractive , less powerful , less likable , less worthy than her ? Comparing myself to her size and her size and her size ? If I'm bigger than her and her size and her size , if I'm bigger than her , then I'm less than her . If I'm smaller than her , then I'm more than her and her size and her size and her size .
My self-worth going up and down with each comparison , scoring points in a game against myself . There's always someone bigger and always someone smaller . There's no winning this game . It's just reducing women to their size . Aren't we bigger than that ?
Oh , that's beautiful .
You write beautiful poetry , thank you for sharing that with me . Thank you too . I thought of that one because , you know , when we go back and we see that picture on Facebook , right , there's grief and we want to be in that wave , but we also want to hold the perspective that that's comparison .
Part woven into the grief is comparison with ourselves , and so we have to look at what's the toxicity comparison in our system .
Yeah , and it is toxic comparison . You know , no good ever comes of it right ? Nobody wins .
No , yeah , compare and despair .
Yeah , it's a hard thing to understand and I love that you , I love that you introduced us to that poem and and hopefully the listeners will all leave with with the belief that we are bigger than that , that we don't have to compare ourselves . Nina , thank you so much for this conversation . It has been , it has been beautiful and I've really enjoyed it .
But I have one last question for you what do you think is the missing ingredient in midlife ?
Pleasure .
Pleasure . I love that . It's a whole other podcast .
I love that yeah .
That's a whole other podcast , so believe it or not . So this is this is going to be close to , I think , 140 . You'll be . I think around that Episode two was called is pleasure , the missing ingredient in midlife . Well , there you go . So I think it is has been a theme , and I agree that it's a missing ingredient and it's one that we need more of .
So where can people learn about you and learn more about the body piece method and what you do ?
Yeah . So first of all , Jen , thank you so much for having me . It's so fun to talk to you . Where you can find me is NinaMantelsoncom or BodyPeaceWithNnina all one wordcom , and there's two really valuable resources there .
One , and they're both free One is a practicing body piece journal and in it has some of my body piece poems and 20 questions that I think are important as we engage in our relationship with our body , and the other is a body piece master class that really gets into the different kinds of relationships that most women have with their body and the missing
relationships that most women never learned about .
Amazing . Thank you so much . We'll have all those links in the show notes too . Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Midlife Feast .
For more non-diet , health , hormone and general midlife support , click the link in the show notes to learn how you can work and learn from me , and if you enjoyed this episode and found it helpful , please consider leaving a review or subscribing , because it helps other women just like you find us and feel supported in midlife . You .