Welcome everyone. This is Michael Moore and this is my podcast, Rumble with Michael Moore. Thanks everybody for joining me. We are now in what some people call Easter week. You could call it April Fool's Week. You could call it. Well, tomorrow would have been what is it now? It's 24, so this would have been tomorrow, the 103rd birthday of my mother. Oh my God, so welcome. And what I thought I'd do today is something we we I don't think. We've ever done this.
Before in the two plus years, 3 plus years of of the podcast and that is to do kind of a a little bit of greatest hits or a compilation and because we've been talking so much about Gaza and Palestine and the the the I don't even want to call it a war. A war takes two sides, right?
And of course this did start with Hamas and their horrific slaughter on October 7th and that I think that their side ended that day or the next day maybe And then pretty much everything after that after those people who invaded Israel killed about 1200 Israelis. Then since then what's God? It's all it's almost been, it's almost been six months wow. It's just been a non non-stop bombardment, carpet bombing, bombing, shooting, sniping, killing, massive killing.
You know, there's all kinds of numbers of how many see, they really know how many are dead because they've blown up. The Israelis have blown up so many buildings, tall apartment buildings in Gaza, and they've had no time to that to the Palestinian people have not had time to get their family members out out from under the rubble. So they've been laying under the rubble now for six months. So we can't count them yet.
But the the ones that they're sort of able to count, they're anywhere from 32,000 to 40,000 dead Palestinians, the vast majority of them women, children and the elderly. So it's been a, it's been just an awful thing to all of us to be witness to. We'd like not to think about it because our president, the one that has to stop Trump from winning in November, is the number One Financial backer and the number one arms dealer for the State of Israel.
So what do we do with that? Well, we're not going to talk about that today. What I'm what I'm going to do is I've been covering this issue probably since the 1970s. I had my own newspaper back in Flint, MI called the Flint Voice and it later went statewide and became the Michigan Voice. And so Michiganders of a certain age will, you know, remember that. But you know, I but I've written about this. I've written about it.
I first went to Palestine and Israel in the, oh, I'd say close to the mid 1980s maybe, yeah, West Bank, Gaza. I went back a few years later. So I'm, I'm somewhat familiar with the people, the area, what I saw. I'll talk a little bit about that and some of these. What I'm going to do is share a podcast that today just 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there, where I've been talking about this issue long before October 7th. I'm not going to read what I wrote back in the 70s and 80s.
Maybe someday I'll I'll, I'll do that. But this is just about my podcast and how I've been very worried about this issue for the well, I guess now 4 plus years. Yeah, what was I saying? This is for the last couple years of the podcast. God of course the pandemic messed up our our whole time clocks didn't. So I don't really know when I say how many years ago this was but the the clips from today's that we're compiling for today's podcast starts in the in the year 2020 and go through until
last year. So I really want you to give this a listen, kind of see it gives you a little bit of a build up to where we're at right now and where I've been with it and what I've been thinking and saying about it, you know, for some time and you know, and I'm just, I don't know about you, but I I just, I can't. I have to tell you I've I've been so affected by this. And you know it has a lot to do with a lot of things that I've discussed and I I continue to
write about. Last night I I sent an open letter to Pope Francis, a person that I met Pope Francis back what just maybe a little over five years ago, and had a conversation with him, and it's very powerful. And so I wrote about it last night in my note to him in terms of I'm worried about his health and how long he's going to be with us. And I we really need him to finish continue finish the incredible good works that he's done to fix the Catholic Church and make things better for
people around the world. And I give him five ideas of just in case he's sitting around this Easter week wondering what his next job should be. I've I've I've given him some ideas so that's my written sub stack that if you are free or paid subscriber you got it from me late late late last night and and then now I'm posting this here on the morning of April first there is no April Fool's joke that you're going to have to listen to or or wait for it here in the in today's podcast
this is just me giving you some of the things you may have missed in these four years all all spoken and said before October 7th leading up to this incredible slaughter and it continues and it's uninterrupted and Netanyahu the Prime Minister of Israel keeps threatening more and more and more and Joe Biden who has he's really the only one in the whole entire world that has the power to stop this say within the next hour literally by just turning off the faucet, pulling the plug.
No more bombs, no more guns, no more bullets, no more nothing. Until you, Mr. Netanyahu, stop the slaughter. And we're the bank for this, folks, You and me, how much we give each year collectively. It's a lot of money individually. And I'll break it down and you'll hear in one of these clips, not it's really not so much per person, but it's quite a bit.
When you think of the billions of yours and my tax dollars that have gone to fund this kind of killing, the stealing of land, new settlements that are violation of every form of international law and in violating what our president has told them to stop doing. But they're not gonna listen. They're just gonna cash the checks, baby. So yes, I said baby, not BBBB is cashing the checks. The B. The baby was to you, the man
with the aviator sunglasses. You know who you are and what you have to do. You must have thought it. You must have thought about it during mass on Easter. Public opinion is completely against this ethnic cleansing. Every poll shows this. It's not just us in the US, it's
all over the world. So sit back and listen to some of our our pieces here from the vault of my podcast and and then let's think about what we need to do to fix this and what each of us can do. And I'll talk about that more on upcoming podcasts. But why don't we get this started with this is a clip from episode 145.
I think it's back in 2020, my first year of the podcast, when I spoke to the The Great Mark Lamont Hill, a journalist, an outspoken critic of what has been happening to the Palestinian people and and and how he lost his job on TV for the stand that he's taken. So we'll start with that with my talk with Marc Lamont Hill and and then we'll be back. I've got, I've picked about four or five pieces here I want you to listen to. So thank you for that.
Thanks for being part of this And remember we're we're all in this together. And my special thanks to those who've been out in the streets who I've taken this protest everywhere. And my very special thanks to the Jewish peace group Jewish Voice for Peace.
It's an incredible organization sticking their necks out, being brave and fighting for this thing that we're all hoping for, which is peace, a permanent ceasefire and a solution to this awful, awful situation that we cannot let go on now anymore. It's long enough, long enough over 75 years of this, we can fix this. And there are good people, as Trump would say. There's good people on all sides. All right, I know, I know. I promise no April Fool's humor. So I'll leave it at that.
And now let's turn it over to me some 4 plus years ago with Marc Lamont Hill. If you're not familiar with Marc Lamont Hill, but you you have seen him. You've seen him on all the cable news. In fact, he had a pay gig at CNM and and at some point I'm gonna say it was maybe was it a year or two ago, Two years, two years ago, CNN announced that they were firing him. It was a. Stunning moment. I couldn't believe it. And Marc Lamont Hill was fired
because he had an opinion. He had an opinion and A and A and a belief in the tragedy. Of what was. And has been happening to the Palestinian people for many, many years. Mark, why don't you tell just so I don't botch it? Explain to us why you got the boot at CNN. Yeah, it I I can. I can tell you what happened. They and and people can draw some of their own conclusions simply because I never got an an
explicit answer from CNN. But for years I have been an advocate for Palestinian self determination, Palestinian human rights. I have as a journalist and as an activist tried to createspace for a a conversation about justice. And I actually was coming back from a a, a a delegation that I had that I led to Palestine. I'd taken a group of of activists and artists to to the West Bank and to to East Jerusalem and also to to Israel, to see, to see, to see things on the ground.
And I I flew back a little early because I was invited to the United Nations to speak at the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian people. And I sat down and in front of the UN and I gave a speech calling for justice. I it's ironic because I normally give speeches off the top of the head but I said I'm going to write this one down so that so that so that I don't get in any trouble.
And I I I appeal to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It was it was the anniversary not just of of of of what Palestinians referred to as the Nekba or the great catastrophe that happened in in 1948. It was the 70th anniversary of the founding of the state of Israel, but also what Palestinians referred to as the Nekba. But it was also the anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
And so I appealed to the Declaration of Human Rights as a way of showing how we value human rights as a global community on the one hand, but we deny them to Palestinians on the other. And at the end of the speech I said that we must do what justice requires, and justice requires, a free Palestine from the river to the sea. Of course, when I said that, I was saying I was doing two things. One I was calling for A1 state
solution. I believe in a singular democratic, secular state for all inhabitants of historic Palestine. That means that people who are currently citizens of Israel, people who are currently citizens of Israel as as as Arab citizens or Palestinian citizens, those who are Jews. I I believe in a single democratic one person, one vote state for everybody. I don't think anyone should leave. I don't think anyone should be harmed.
But we need a single democratic state and and and I was also pointing to the fact that there's injustice not just in the West Bank or just in in Gaza and not just in the diaspora, but also even in the state of Israel, where 20% of Palestinians, or rather where 20% of the citizenry are are Palestinian. And I want to call point out the inequalities and say we can get justice in all of these places, we can come together and do this. The speech was based on facts. It was based on data.
And and so they didn't impeach the speech. They said the last 6 words from the river to the sea were intolerable, that they were violent, that they were caught, that they were the same words used by Hamas. And therefore I was echoing or maybe even showing solidarity with. I mean, it was the most extreme sort of interpretations of what I said, which couldn't be further from the truth. But this was the kind of dishonest narrative that was being created by people who want
to keep the status quo. And so the day after the speech, again I I thought I did good. I got AI, got a standing ovation at the UN. I'm I'm thinking I'm having a good day. The next morning I get called from CNN and they said that unfortunately we heard your speech at the UN and we can't have you on air as a contributor anymore. I said why? They said because your speech is inconsistent with our values.
And I said can you explain what your values are or what specifically were, you know, where where specifically the inconsistency is? And they said no, we can't elaborate any further, just you don't represent our values. And that was the end of it. And and at that moment, not only was I dismissed from CNN, but I was nearly fired from Temple University. I nearly lost my although I'm a tenured professor with an endowed chair, a full professor, all the things you're supposed to have.
Temple also told me that I was the the the board of trustees wrote a letter of censure. I'm the first person in the history of the university to get a letter of condemnation. And the the chair of of the board of trustees said that it was that I I I showed my speech was a rant. That was the most disgusting, the the most morally atrocious thing he'd ever heard. What's funny is this man who said this about me is Bill Cosby's personal attorney.
And so Bill Cosby, by the way, is also a Temple alum and was on the board. He also was never received a letter of condemnation from Temple University. So it just gives you a sense of of of sort of what we prioritize and why? So if you had only said yeah, you see the the key is you said the word see that's that's the trigger word. If you had said a a free Palestine from the river to the Starbucks in downtown Ramallah. Right, that'd be fine. That would you.
Would be still you'd still be on CNN, right? You know. To to the Walmart just outside Tel Aviv, that would have been OK. But the fact that you said from the river to the sea. But you know, I'm so glad that you actually explained this because it now people listening to this rarely hear about the
one state solution. But my good friend Rashida Talib and and Ilhan Omar and others have been talking about this for some time, 'cause most people who at least are trying to support the rights of the Palestinian people. And that includes a lot of Israelis and Jewish Americans who are sickened by the behavior of the Israeli government and especially the government of Benjamin Netanyahu.
But the two state solution That's been the that's been the mantra for for decades where there's Israel and then the West Bank and Gaza become Palestine and it's it's A and it's its own country even though it's it's divided. I I guess that the agreement would have some sort of of a freeway some, you know some. Some. Like the four O 5 in between Bethlehem and Gaza City.
But but basically you what you're saying and what others now believe is the actual the most democratic small D democratic and fairway to think of this is that at this point let's stop the fighting. Let's just say this is 1 country, it's one democracy. It's one democracy, one person, one vote. Anybody who is an inhabitant of that and I guess you know the the Israeli law allows Jews anywhere in the world to come and be a citizen.
So I guess to be fair Palestinians who've had to leave would have the right of return to I'm just making this up. I don't know if this is the the one state solution but it just seems to be in my head if that's the way it's gonna be. OK, then if this is your original homeland you yes. Welcome back. But everybody, it's one person one vote and and it'll be a democracy and and you'll have a majority rule with minority rights I would hope, just like
we try to to do here. Do I have that right or do you can you give a better explanation of the one state solution? I think I think you've you've you've hit you've hit the nail on the head right. It's it's the thing it's a single democratic state where everyone would have equal rights. One of the one of the the argument from those who are anti this would argue would argue that it fundamentally destroys
the Jewish state. That's that's the pushback because they're arguing that if you have the the right to return. Right the law of return has existed in Israel since 1950 but it's only for it's only for returning Jews because it's a Jewish state. And so a a Palestinian who say lived in in Rumley or in Lid or or or in these other places, who were forced to leave in 1948 are not allowed to return as citizens of Israel right now. And the right of return, the right of.
So the right of return is, is, is is a very interesting and complicated thing in the context of A2 state solution. People say, well, yeah, if we have a two state solution, Palestinians have a right to return, but they can only return to those new areas that will be that that new designated Palestinian state. So if I were born in in Jaffa or Yaffa, right near Tel Aviv, I'm sorry.
If my family were from Yafa and we've got the right to return, we wouldn't be returning to to to to to Yafa, We'd be returning to maybe Ramallah. So this, this becomes part of the challenge because the argument is if you have one state and Palestinians were were allowed to return and those in the West Bank and Gaza were considered citizens, then eventually they would outnumber the Jews and therefore which would control laws, the Jewish state would be dismantled and
they'd be vulnerable again. This is the the argument, I think, that there are ways to imagine A1 state solution as I have, where where Israel could or this land that we now call Israel could always be a Jewish homeland. That is to say, you can write, you can actually have a constitution rather than what they have now is basic laws.
And you could write into it in such a way that Jews who are fleeing, who are facing persecution anywhere in the world could return to this, could have the right to come to this land that's possible without it being a Jewish or any other religious state. But the right of return absolutely says one person, one vote.
It's not, it's no no longer. There's a set of laws that emerged a couple of years ago, new basic laws, nation state law, which basically prioritized one set of laws, one set of people over another, one, one language over another, etcetera. Right. Arabic was no longer a main language, but it was a priority language, but it wasn't an official language. These are, these are things that are creating second class citizenship in the state right
now. There are people who would say, yeah, Israel is, is, is is a democratic state. If you're a citizen of Israel, you're just fine, right. The Arabs and and and you know they're in the, the Knesset, they're in the parliament. They're they're fine. They get treated the same. Ethiopians get treated the same. But in practice the laws which are facially neutral actually have a differential impact on people.
So whether it's whether it's the the Nekba law or whether it's admission admissions committees in neighborhoods, if I want to move in the live in the Galilee in certain places, right. There's a Commission that decides whether or not I'm allowed to move in based on whether or not, whether or not I fit the social and cultural fabric of the neighborhood. I mean gonna imagine that in the in the United States in the
1950s or 60s. So there are laws that we have to sort of dismantle which we could do if we had a simple one state solution. And finally the argument against the two state solution because some people say why not just let me have my Jewish state and why not let him have his Palestinian state and everybody's fine. The problem. There are a couple of problems with it for me.
One is a practical 1 because of settlement expansion, because of the sort of stubbornness of of the last few administrations in Israel, and because of the the the inability to develop any kind of lasting land for peace deal, the two state solution is dead. It's it's it's logistically not possible. Every two state option that has been offered to Palestinians has been one that is less than
desirable. I mean you can make the case in the under the Clinton Accords that was the best case scenario but but but still these questions around land contiguity, the question on potable water this this this idea of access all these things are things that we have to really wrestle with. But at the end of the day, the two state solution for me is also I don't believe in in in religious states. I don't believe in in Saudi Arabia as a Democrat, as a as a religious state.
I don't believe in Iran as a as as a religious state. I I don't believe in any religious state. I don't believe in secular democratic states. And so for me, I don't think that Israel should be placed below anyone else. It shouldn't have us. It shouldn't be. Israel should not be held to a standard that other nations are not. But Israel also shouldn't be given an exception that other nations are not. I the. The idea of any religious state it automatically just by saying
those words. And it it infers that this is not a democracy because if it favors those who are members of a certain religion. And imagine what that would be like in Gilead. Here I mean the United States of America. If. One particular religion decided that this this was a Christian nation and the rest of you are second class citizens. It's no longer a democracy at that point. I'm so glad that you talk about this. Few people are want to talk about it.
They're afraid to talk about it. They see what happened to you, for instance, at CNN and and then that the really, I'm sorry that you lost your job. But the big, the big tragedy is that the word goes out to everybody else. Don't, don't bring this topic up. Don't get involved in it. Don't say anything about it. And I don't know maybe I've been lucky. I talk about this. I've talked about this forever.
I first visited the occupied territories back in the early to mid 80s and could not believe what I saw, what I experienced and have been trying to get people's. Attention on this since then very very powerful And I I just why don't we just why don't we. I got something here from let's go back actually that was from no we're going to go forward. That was episode 145 from Rumble, from my podcast.
We're going to go to episode 190, which I aired in 2021, talking about this issue now that is at the forefront of every day of this world's life right now, what's going on in Israel and in Palestine. In 1985, I received a grant Journalism Grant scholarship, so to speak, that allowed me to go on a fact finding tour of the Middle East, just to kind of get
a sense of things. And when we got to Israel and the West Bank and Gaza, it was like I couldn't believe what I was saying, honest to God. It was so sad and so frightening and so it it just hit me. It hit me like a ton of bricks that Israel, of all people that would be doing causing this kind of harm to Palestinians, making them live like this. No rights. No say you know it it the sense that you're living in a big prison. Wow. Just kind of it blew my mind.
And 2 1/2 years later there was an uprising amongst the Palestinians kids with stones throwing stones at the soldiers was called the Intifada, the first Intifada. And within a month of it starting, I went with some journalist friends over there to cover it. And again, I'm just stunning getting caught in the middle of Israeli soldiers firing rubber bullets whizzing by me. I can't believe none of them hit me.
But I look back at it now and I'm, I'm thinking, boy, I don't know if I would take this kind of risk again. That was just, that was crazy. And they were killing these kids that were throwing stones at them. And we went to Gaza. I've never been. I I've been to a lot of places in the world, a lot of very poor countries. I'd never seen anything like this. 2 million people living on a very narrow strip of land and with nothing and surrounded by the Israeli army.
Wow. I just couldn't get over it. You know, once you see something, you can't Unsee it. Something like this. I had just, I had also just begun making my first film, Roger and Me. I came back home to keep working on that and and finish it and still rattled by what I'd seen and when the film came out and you know got very favorable reaction from a lot of people in
this country. I got an invitation from the Jerusalem Film Festival to come and show the film and and because these curfews and from the intifada was still still essentially going on, I just, I asked the festival. I said, well, I'm honored. Thank you and I'd love to come. Will Arab people be able to watch my movie? Explained. Well, you know, we have these curfews. So no, they like if if it's going to be the theater in Jerusalem and they live in Bethlehem. No, they can't.
Bethlehem's like, you know, less than 5 miles outside of Jerusalem. They they can't. No. They won't be able to see it. I said, well then that's a segregated situation. I can't participate in that. But there's nothing we can do about it. I mean, this is the government. The government. We don't agree with this. But. And I had to make a decision and and I and I decided and I just said, look, I can't. This is like an apartheid situation here. I can't do this. I can't.
You know, they're the they are the majority, certainly in the West Bank and Gaza, clearly. And yet yet how many screenings of this film will take place in these occupied territories? None. OK, well, at least. Look, if I don't come, you'll you're going to have subtitles on it, right? Yes, there will be Hebrew and French subtitles. And I said French. What? What's that got to do with anything? The people that live in. So this is Jerusalem Film Festival.
The people that live there are Jewish Israelis and Arab Arab Israelis or Arab Palestinians who live in the occupied territories. Why, Why don't you have Hebrew and Arabic on the screen? Well, it's just the way we do it. I said, oh man, I can't participate in this. It's 1989. All right. So I can't participate in this. Yes. Show the film. Fine. But you know, I I can't. I can't come. They were really bummed out.
I felt bad bumming them out. But I just said I just, you know, And in fact, by that time I had already sold the film to Warner Brothers, so I couldn't pull the film because Warners had already said yes. And anyway, so oh man, it was in all the papers that I wasn't. I refused to come because Arab citizens, Arab residents, Arabs under occupation, could not come to the theater and watch the movie, and even if they could, their language would not be the subtitles on the screen.
And so 'cause I made a point about this, I was pilloried in most, not all, of the Israeli oppressed. They were very, you know, or at least at the time, had a very strong left wing in Israel and in their press. And there were some that were very, very supportive of me. But so anyway, so I didn't go the jury, and usually these festivals have kind of an international jury. The jury picked Roger Me my, my film as the best film of the
festival, give it the top rise. And of course I'm not there to accept it and I wouldn't, of course I wasn't going to go and accept it. So that's another whole round of stories in the press about how I wasn't they, you know, they're so generous. They gave me the the top prize and then I wasn't there. But I will, I will not participate in anything like that that has segregation that's essentially based on racism and an apartheid situation. And I just, I stuck. I stuck to that.
I took a lot of crap for it. But it's OK You know, the next year I'm at the Toronto Film Festival and I see the woman who's the head of the Jerusalem Film Festival, and she's coming toward me. And I'm like, I'm getting really nervous. I'm going, Oh no, I don't want to have to deal with this. She's going to be so mad. She came up to me and gave me this huge hug and I'm like, wow,
what's going on? And then and then she sort of, you know, held me there by my shoulders and she said thank you, thank you for taking that stand. I know, I know you had to suffer for it. But you said the right thing. You did the right thing. And as a result, we have made changes this year at the festival this. First of all, the subtitles on on the films will not be Hebrew and French. He'll he'll be Hebrew and Arabic number one.
Number two, we if we find ourselves in a situation that we can't control because of the the army and the police and the and the right wing government, we will find a way so that the Arab citizens and residents and occupied people will be able to see the films. They will. They are participants in Jerusalem. It is a divided city. By that time, Israel was claiming the whole city was theirs, even though E Jerusalem was essentially at that time all Arabic.
But of course, they have been kicking the Palestinians out over many years since then. This is 1989, so we're talking over 30 years ago. And that's what, that's what triggered this thing that happened here in the last couple of weeks, 'cause they were kicking people out of their homes again. They wanted, they wanted the apartments. They wanted the homes in Jerusalem, which is supposedly down the capital of of Israel.
And if you live in Jerusalem, you're supposed to be a citizen, but not quite, you're a citizen if you're Palestinian. You have a little different form of identity card. You're color-coded if you're an Arab in Israel or the West Bank or Gaza or Jerusalem. Another another whole thing I'm not going to get into. But it's it's one of these things you see in an in an apartheid regime.
But she was so grateful that I'd done that and and it helped them make some of these changes that they needed to make And and I was so grateful that she told me that and it just felt better. All the heat I had to take, you know, for taking that that stand back in 1989. But overall, things did not get better in these 32 years since I won the prize at the Jerusalem Film Festival that I refused to attend. It has just gotten worse and worse and worse.
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us here on this podcast. OK, so we're going to continue on with our look back from different shows where we've talked about Palestine here on rumble since we first came on the air in December of 2019. What I want to do now is, come on, let's go back to episode 248. This is from 2022, where I spoke with Julia Baca of Just Vision, which is an incredible organization. They do a lot of great work, a lot of great videos, films, they're, they're on the ground telling the truth about, you
know, a whole bunch of things. So the the first part of this will be a just we'll talk to to Julia, and then we're going to get into how the IDF, Israel's defense force, essentially executed a Palestinian American journalist back in 2022. Her name was Shereen Abu Akla. They did this in the West Bank and and since then since October 7th, actually now Israel has killed at least would have been confirmed 90 Palestinian journalists. Well, let's take a listen.
This is back from 2022, another story that you may have missed and I don't want you to miss it on the morning of Wednesday, May 11th while. We were all sleeping here in the United States of America, Over in the Middle East, halfway around the world, in the West Bank, in occupied Palestine. An American journalist who is of Palestinian descent, Shereen Abu Akla, was brutally murdered by an Israeli sniper.
She was standing in a small crowd of fellow journalists, away from any conflict, wearing the standard uniform that journalists wear over there to identify themselves. A blue flak jacket and a bulletproof helmet clearly marked press. And in that moment of just standing there talking to her fellow journalist, an Israeli soldier shot her in the back of her neck, in that small space between her helmet and the top of her, her flak jacket, a
precision shot. One of her colleagues was also shot in the shoulder during the attack, and heroic citizen tried to retrieve her body and that person was shot at too. Two days later, Israeli forces then at her funeral procession, kicked and beat mourners with batons. And not just mourners, the pallbearers carrying the casket and the casket starts to fall. The pallbearers start to fall and they almost dropped and spilled the casket open and and a couple of them caught it just in time.
It was there's video of this. You can watch this. This is just absolutely horrific. Shereen was an American citizen, a Palestinian American, and when news spread of this murder, people were outraged everywhere. Shereen was a prominent and respected journalist all around the world for 25 years. She told stories about the occupation, about Israel's treatment of Palestinians, mostly on Al Jazeera, which, by the way, is a great news
network. She was a beloved figure amongst the people in the Arab world and especially in Palestine. In Palestine, I can, I can assure you, she's known in every household. But this story of a of a journalist, especially a Palestinian journalist, being slain by Israeli forces is not unique. It's not an anomaly. Since the year 2000, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Information, nearly 50 Palestinian journalists have been killed by Israeli forces.
In just a few weeks after Shireen's execution on June 1st, Israeli forces shot and killed 31 year old Palestinian journalist while she was commuting to work. Her funeral procession was also attacked by Israeli police. Now, because Shireen was an American, many were hopeful that US outrage would spark an unequivocal demand for an independent investigation into her death. And ultimately, we would see some form of justice.
Yeah, just go ahead and cue the applause track, because of course that's not going to happen. And it didn't happen. the US State Department did condemn her killing, but they stopped short of calling for an independent investigation. And of course, their spokesman there and State Department assured reporters that the Israelis have the wherewithal and the capabilities to conduct a thorough and comprehensive investigation.
Israel, for its part, of course, did what it always does deny and deflect, because after all, it was just another dead Arab. But this was a dead American. And so don't those of you who are listening to this, who are Americans, Don't we have a responsibility to demand answers when when one of our citizens is murdered by the Israeli Defense Force?
On June 24th, the UN released their findings of its inquiry and it said that it was Israeli gunfire that killed Shireen Abu Akala. President Biden has refused to call for an independent investigation into her killing. I have to tell you, this story has haunted me ever since I woke up to the news of it on May 11th.
You know, either I know personally or I am extremely familiar with following the American and Palestinian, American and Palestinian journalists in the West Bank and Gaza over the years, and I care very deeply about this subject. I have visited the West Bank and Gaza twice and I have seen first hand how the Palestinians are treated, sort of apartheid situation that's going on over there.
It's it's sad, it's wrong. And you know, as I've said before in this podcast, to say that you support Israel but you don't support the rights of Palestinians means you don't support Israel, 'cause you can't have one without the other and you have no credibility or integrity when you say, oh, I I support Israel, but the hell with the Palestinians.
Well then then you're not to be believed that you be because of if you were to support Israel, well then that means you support human life period, regardless whose it is and you don't support a so-called democracy that has essentially imprisoned a group of people simply because because they're Arabs.
I don't know. This whole thing has bothered me and I've I've, I've mentioned it to friends and and people and said did you did you hear the story of this American journalist murdered by the Israelis here back in May? No. And it was just a couple days after her, her death that the Buffalo massacre took place. And of course again, it's all the obviously, and it should. All the news goes toward the horrific story of the day which now it seems like there's one every day or every other day.
And this got lost and nobody talked about Shireen. And I can't believe that if somebody who gave her life, 25 years of covering the oppression of a group of people and then she's killed and nobody knows about it. Nobody talks about it. Our own American government doesn't do Jack about one of its citizens that are killed by the people that we give billions to every year.
It's just it's like, come on. Well, anyways, today I thought it'd be a good idea to have my friend Julia Baca, fellow documentary filmmaker on the podcast here to talk about Shereen and her own experiences of reporting from Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza. Julia is an extraordinary
award-winning film maker. She's the creative director at Just Vision. Just Vision is a nonprofit that the most important thing it does is it fills a media gap that exists on the issue of Israel, Palestine, and they do it through independent storytelling and engagement. Can we get around the on the line here and. OK. Julia, are you, are you there? Yeah, Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much for coming on my podcast. Of course, it's a pleasure, Mike.
I want to talk about Shireen. So here we have an American citizen, a journalist, who is essentially assassinated by the Israeli Defense Force, and nothing has happened about this. You've had so many years of experience of dealing with this horror that exists there in Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, Palestine, etcetera, and I'm just curious what your thinking was when you first heard about her being shot and killed there. I really appreciate, Mike, you bringing Shireen up.
It was a huge shock, I think, to anyone who, as you mentioned, has worked in the region to hear that she was killed in the manner that she was killed. There was a sense of horror that took over my body at that moment. If if they can kill Shireen like that, then nobody's safe. I have been hearing from my colleagues on the ground, you know my Palestinian producer Rula Salameh, who I've been working with for 15 years now. She has known Shireen since the
beginning of Shireen's career. She gave her her first job at the Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation in the early 90s. And. Brulla. And all of her colleagues are really scared that this is going to silence all of them, because they are now so petrified that an Israeli soldier can aim his or her weapon, shoot on the neck on Shereen's back, kill her. With.
The cameras having been rolling just moments before with several of Shireen's colleagues, her journalists, as eyewitnesses, saying clearly what have happened at this point? We've had CNN, New York Times, Associated Press newspapers and and you know, television channels that are not known for digging deep when it comes to his wrong Palestine, saying that in all likelihood Shereen was not only killed by an Israeli soldier, but she was targeted by an Israeli soldier.
And yet the Biden administration, dealing with an American journalist who was seemingly assassinated, washes the hand and say, oh, we are we, we we trust Israel to conduct an investigation. Meanwhile, Israel has already declared that it's not conducting a criminal investigation because there are only two options for what may have happened. Number one, she was killed by
Palestinian militants. #2 if it happens that she was killed by an Israeli soldier, it was an accident because the Israeli soldiers must have been trying to kill Palestinian armed militants shooting at them. And so for for journalists on the ground, when they see that happening to Shireen, who is the, as you mentioned, the most beloved, well known, respected, has been doing this work for decades now.
For this to happen to her blatantly, and for nothing to happen, for the world to stay silent, for the American administration to do nothing is terrifying. So this is a this is a tragedy not only for the life of Shereen, but for the life of all journalists on the ground trying to cover the actions of the Israeli government. She is was an American citizen. Bottom line, what happened a few years ago with Khashoggi, With the Saudis?
He was a an American resident and worked for the Washington Post. That sent enough of a chill down people's spine for a while, at least until that was essentially forgotten and and brushed aside. I don't want this to be brushed aside. I don't want this to be forgotten. I want an answer. I want to stand up for my fellow American, Shereen Abu Aklav. I want this to be investigated. I want answers.
And I'm not the only one, but they're benefiting from the fact that our attention is so much on the horror that's been coming out of Washington, DC this last month or two that we're not going to know about this. We're not going to talk about it. We're going to forget about it. I mean, you've been, you know, not only a film maker but also an important organizer on this issue for many, many years.
What is it that people can do and instead of just listening to you and I talk, get angry and but then ultimately feel hopeless and helpless? Yeah, I felt for a moment there, right after Shireen's killing that something would be different this time. And as you mentioned, it's so hard to keep people's attention on any one particular matter these days, particularly one that that concerns a foreign country, because our own country requires so much caring right
now. But one thing happened last week that rekindled my hope, and it was the fact that 24 senators signed an open letter calling on President Biden to ensure the direct involvement of the United States in the investigation of the killing of Shereena Bouackle. And even though that seems small in the reality of Washington DC and and and how it relates to Israel, it's very significant.
AIPAC, which is one of the main lobbies for Israel in Washington, DC, lobbied really hard against this letter. And you know, from people that have experienced that type of lobbying, there is, you know, direct threats that opponents will be supported. AIPAC actually has been known to now be supporting Republicans who actually participated on January 6th, meaning they're funding Republicans who supported the insurrection on January 6th.
And it's very important for the senators, these 24 senators who signed this letter, to hear from their constituents saying that they support them there because they are going to get from the lobby a lot of attacks. And it's really important for the senators who signed that letter, for the House of representative members who signed the one on May 19th also calling for, in this case calling for an FBI investigation on her killing the US needs to be involved.
I think that's, you know, sort of galvanizing around the goal. I think it's important when you're trying to create action and in two weeks President Biden is going to be visiting Israel. And on the statement by the the, the White House, it says that President Biden is coming to the region to reinforce the United States ironclad commitment to Israel's security and
prosperity. And you know, there was a lot of criticism of Trump, the Trump's administration's approach to Israel and Palestine and think there was, you know, maybe a naive expectation that Biden would bring a little bit more of a human rights lends back to how it looks to the Middle East. But it hasn't and it won't do it unless Americans show that they want the administration to do it and that they care enough.
And so I would start by, you know, asking your senator, your representative, to join this letters that were sent. I think the more pressure that there is in the run up to this trip for making it clear that people are waiting to see if Biden is going to bring this up and how he's going to bring it up. I think that is one thing that people can do. He has to do this.
I mean, boy, if our own president can't stand up for a fellow American who has been killed, a journalist who has been killed not by accident, it appears to be a direct decision to point a gun at her and shoot her. So I know I've, I've, I've seen this first hand. My first trips to the occupied territories back in the 80s. Israeli soldiers firing at that time, rubber bullets at me and others who had gathered in the West Bank and and we were there
as journalists. We were covering what was going on and they didn't care that we were journalists. They have a bullet whizzed by Your face like an inch or two away is a frightening experience to say the least. And then to see people actually harmed, even with rubber bullets killed. Well, you don't forget it. Let me you know, and you know what I'm talking about because you've been there and you've risked your life to bring us
these truths. And and to all the other Palestinians and Israelis who have taken that same risk, I have such admiration. And I honor all of you who do this. And tonight, at least as we are speaking here on this episode, I do it in the name of of Shireen. I want to see the killing stopped, and I want to see the oppression ended. I appreciate you coming on, you know, talking about this. I appreciate you so much, Michael. Thank you for for not letting
the story die. I don't know what else to do I. Can't. I can't. You know, look, we all have a conscience and we have to follow that. And you know, most people are good at their core and when they see injustice, they don't like it, they don't like it. And I'm counting on that in the in both in Shireen's case and all the incredible issues that you continue to cover. So thank you for that and my appreciation to Shireen's family, her American family, her
Palestinian family. And let's make sure that we all carry on that work and let's make sure there's justice when it comes to her death. We have one more underwriter for today's episode. So I want to thank them for backing us here and and then. We'll get right back to this compilation show of some of our clips from past episodes where we've dealt with the issue of Palestine. But the underwriter I want to thank right now is Moink.
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Next up, I've got a brief clip from our live Rumble episode that we did in March of 2021 where my dear friend, the courageous Representative Rashida Talib representing the Detroit Dearborn area in the United States Congress, where she talks about not the Two state solution, but the one state solution, something I'd brought up a few years ago with Marc Lamont Hill. Rashida gets into considering. Maybe another alternative to what?
You know, we've mostly been talking about for a a decade or two here. So let's let's turn it over and over. This is going to be myself with Congresswoman Rashida Talib. You you've got a vote, Your aide just told me you've got a vote coming up here shortly. So it. Just if you could have 'cause, I said I told. Roger that, I'd ask you your. Opinion on this and I know it's it's a long thing it's we don't have the time to get into the whole story of it.
But you know what does need to happen now? You know Netanyahu still in charge still calling all the wrong shots to oppress the the people who live there. What what can we as Americans do? What can Congress do? It's and and and. How do you feel about that issue I raised with him about the two state versus the one state solution?
Yeah. So you know, I think it's public knowledge that I supported one state because I I grew up in one of the most beautiful, blackest cities in the country, in the city of Detroit where separate but equal didn't didn't work in our history here. And I just, I can't imagine how it work, especially a small country as Israel and Palestine.
So I, you know, one of the things I've been trying to do desperately is just put a human face to what it feels like to be Palestinian under occupation, not having access to water to, you know, be able to thrive economically. The fact that my grandmother, I mean she has a checkpoint sometimes in front of her house just to leave, it's a farmhouse with no houses next to it. It's just you know these are she's. A huge You know your grandmother. How old is she?
How old is she? Oh, she's nowadays like we think 83, as you know back then you were born in the house and you know we don't ever we're, we know that she's around 83 based on that, yeah, but she is definitely, you know, just hanging in there. But she's also just, she wants human dignity. This is her. This is all she knows is her land in Palestine, the farming, the people. And it's it's so traumatic but also just unbelievably painful to feel less than in your own
country. And they just, you know, many of the Palestinian family members I have there just want equality and they want to be seen. And again, I growing up, I think understanding what continues to happen to my black neighbors and knowing that that kind of oppression, you know, can won't lead to actual, you know, viability for everyone in the region. Everybody's impacted. When we deny people access to opportunities, we deny people
equality, everyone hurts. And so I hope Israelis understand that when they continue to, you know, enhance and enable someone like Netanyahu who runs on anti Arab rhetoric and violence towards Arabs, it's really painful to kind of see that and enable. Yeah, I mean the racist rhetoric coming out of his administration is it's hard to hear even for me at all the way here in the United States.
But just for him to say the things that he says, again, making Palestinians as if they're less human and it's wrong and we shouldn't be funding that kind of, you know, rhetoric or those kinds of systems. Actually, let's go back now to episode 190. It's also, This was 2021 because I was talking about back then something that I think still rings true, how it's the younger generations both here and in Palestine and in Israel. That will bring peace to us in the future.
Sadly, things have not gotten better for the Palestinians. The young people of this country and in Palestine, and young Israelis and young people around the world have had enough. They've seen enough. They know the truth. And Bibi, Bibi Netanyahu, you know it ain't going to work anymore. You overplayed your hand. You overstayed. You're welcome. And now the young people around the world are not going to support you are not going to tolerate this any longer.
The young people of the United States who have led these movements from the Women's March to the March for our Lives with the Parkland High School kids to the last election here and getting out the vote and then taking over the streets.
Last year after the murder of George Floyd Young people, young teenagers, adults said enough is enough and the treatment of George Floyd in their eyes correctly and mine and many of you are listening to this, the treatment of George Floyd times that by 5 million, seven million. And there you have the situation in Palestine and Israel, or even an Arab citizen who has full citizenship in Israel, still treated differently because he's an Arab. She's an Arab. This will not continue.
No one's listening, baby. We have a right to defend ourselves. Yes. Thank you, General Custer. Yes, you do, actually. Because you are human and you want to live. It's complex. You don't know the history. No, but I know what my own I saw last night. I saw them pulling the four year old girl out of the rubble. The rubble that you created. I saw how you used the press.
You, you're, you're your PR guy, held a press conference to say that that you were sending in the ground troops into Gaza, which scared people in Gaza. And so they went to hide under in their makeshift bomb shelters, these tunnels that they've got. And you somehow 'cause you guys are so good at this BB, remember, you're an American. You know how to kill. Those were great killers.
And you did it, baby. You use the press, 'cause you wanted Hamas and the Palestinians and everybody to hear that you were, you were crossing the border and coming into Gaza with the tanks and the soldiers. And so everybody ran to the tunnels to hide, to try to hide from the troops, that you got the New York Times and all the Israeli press and everybody to report that that this invasion had started. Remember reading this everybody a few days ago, before the weekend?
It was all a lie. They made it up 'cause they knew they would scare the Palestinians into the tunnels. The tunnels that they were going to send these bombs into, to asphyxiate and to kill God knows how many people. We don't know these numbers yet. We'll know this eventually. How many hundreds? Eventually. How many thousands? God forbid. Please no that that were killed because you used and you and the press is so easily duped because if the Israeli spokesman is saying and it's. Got to be.
True. It sounds so believable. And the Palestinians believed it, and they went into the tunnels and that's where they died. And then, of course, a couple days later, your PR guy, your press person, whoever that is, had to apologize for the little ruse that they created so they could smoke them out. And then we watched those apartment buildings crumble in the exact same way that the Twin Towers crumbled, and it sent a chill down my spine to look at that.
This is not the way I was raised to believe the things about Israel and I've tried to make a separation in my head because I know so many very very good Israelis. I mean the the Israeli human rights group and I'm probably gonna mispronounce the name but it's it's I believe B'tselem is how it's pronounced. B'tselem the the the which is Israeli Israeli human rights organization has called the Netanyahu regime an apartheid government. This turned Israel into an apartheid country.
That's the Israelis saying that. And then of course Human Rights Watch. The international organization put out a 200 page report this year outlining every aspect of how Israeli apartheid works. It's not South Africa. It's it's a it's a it's a 21st century version. It's the smart way to do apartheid. And it's a stunning document. You can look it up online. So many people want this to end, but let's stop with the false
equivalency here. And whatever mistakes Palestinians have made, Palestinian leaders have made, you know, I'm a pacifist. So no, I I would. I would not be firing rockets. It's just me. But I understand why. I understand why the Indians fired their bows and arrows at General Custer and any of the cavalry that was coming, 'cause that's what people do when
they're put in that situation. And it's amazing that people in Palestine can even think clearly because when you've been under this sort of attack since 1948, when you've been put in a a prison, and then the people running the prison call it a democracy, wow, You don't know which way is up, is white, black and black, white, all of that. It's just man, man. No. Yes, everybody. President Biden, what took you so long here? And you're not? You still haven't done it.
Got to pull the plug, Joe. You got to pull the plug on Netanyahu. You got to say we're not sending any more money to you. Stop this right now. I just announced yesterday a 735,000,000 arms deal. We're sending the Israeli 735 million dollars worth of new weapons. Who are we? Look, Joe, I know, I know it. It takes a while. It's taken a while. You know. Of course you're not Bernie, but that's OK. You've done some great things here, and now you need to listen
to Bernie about this. He's written about it. I'm sure he's talked to you about it, You know, and you're you're a good Catholic. Back when I visited, the first time I visited Palestine, it was pointed out to me that that somewhere between 20 and 30% of Palestinians are Catholics, Catholics or or Christians. Most people aren't aware of that. Most people aren't aware that the the Muslim Bible, which is called the Koran.
Has has a. Whole chapter in there devoted to Mary, the mother of Jesus in the Koran. Because they worship her, they honor her. We don't. In the Christian Bible, there's no book called Mary, but it's in the Koran. We are so ignorant and removed and This is why we get into all this trouble and we let our government do things in our name and with our money that we never should let it do $26.
That's that's how much I gave this year as an American and every other working American who paid taxes. And right now, when you see this suffering, you're causing it. My friends who are Americans who are listening to this, and I'm causing it. I'm paying for it. I paid $26 for it today, and I get a whole year's worth of oppressing the Palestinians for that. That is. That's quite the deal, isn't it? You most of you know I'm being sarcastic and, right?
Yeah, it's sickens me. I've been sick here for a week watching this, and there's so many other things we need to talk about and deal with them. We're not going to have time to do that today, but I do. I had to not only be very clear about what I think we need to do and what President Biden needs to do, and we need to put Bibi Benjamin Netanyahu on notice that his time is up, the days are over. The world won't tolerate this anymore. The Palestinian people are not going to stop.
They're not going to tolerate it anymore. So we have to find a different way. And one of the things we're going to do is we're going to take away, we're not going to be the bank anymore for you. 20% of the Israeli military budget is funded by us, 1/5 of it is just covered by us. That doesn't even count all the other things that we send them. Do you realize that 3/5 of all military aid that we give to other countries in the world, 3/5 of it goes to 1 country, Israel?
Come on everybody. This has to end. I went there nearly 40 years ago. I've had to live with what I saw and what I experienced. I've been writing about this for almost 50 years and I'm done. I'm tired of it. I'm sick of it. And we need to make our voices heard because we are the funders of this oppression. We are the funders of this slaughter. We are the funders of this theft of kicking people out of their apartments, of bulldozing their homes. We, you and me, something to
think about on tax day. And you could say, well, hey, Mike, I mean, I only gave $26 to all this madness. I mean, you know, how much, how much real harm did I cause with my 20-6 dollars? Well, quite a bit, my friend, $26 from 155,000,000 of us went to this collectively over $4 billion. No, not another dime. Let's call it what the Israeli human rights organization called this Apartheid. This is an evil regime run by Benjamin Netanyahu. No more.
And we're not gonna believe the lies anymore. None of the propaganda, all the stuff we're told. Oh, well, we had to blow up the building that The Associated Press was in because Hamas was using them as cover, 'cause they were there were there were militants in the building. Oh, come on. First of all, if you're Palestinian, you're that it's redundant to call you a
militant. You're you're a people that have had your land and your homes stolen from you and and you and you're been part of a great erasure over the last 50-60 years. So no, yes, of course there are militants everywhere. There's militants in my apartment building. You know, don't don't use that as an excuse BB to to bomb the building here. But I'm just saying don't believe any of this stuff.
You're being told this week in the press that the especially the American media has been so hoodwinked by this stuff for now for so long. All this, you know, they're firing there. They're firing these rockets into Israel from that building and so so let's. So let's kill 40 people in the building, you know, but but were they were rockets being fired from there? I don't believe any of it. In the same way I don't believe the Minneapolis police press spokesperson on the night of
George Floyd's murder. You know what I'm talking about? That press release they sent out saying how he had a medical condition and died, that's remember that they're liars. They're all professional liars. It's not just in Israel, it's this country, it's around the world. And if they're police and if they're military, you know, again, we need to go back to the old adage of everything that
they're telling you is a lie. Nothing they say should be believed unless it's proven that they are telling the truth. But that you have to 1st accept, you have to begin with accepting that what you're being told is not the truth. Make them prove to you it is the truth. They're going to have a very hard time doing that. So don't fall for any of the stuff that you're hearing this week. As I'm recording this now, 10 Israelis have died and I think close to 300 Palestinians.
It's it's there's a false equivalency there. And let me tell you something though. Every single one of those 10 Israeli lives matter deeply. It's not a numbers game, but to hear the Israeli government and Netanyahu talk about like it's some even Steven thing, are you kidding me? One is a nuclear power, and the other side is bows and arrows, and there's a reason they're firing those arrows. It's complicated, Mike.
Yeah, it's complicated. Only in the sense that we have to figure out how we are going to stop funding this insanity. President Biden, or anybody who's working for him that is listening to me. You do not have our support. And we speak for millions and millions of Americans, The same millions actually, who would give their lives to make sure that there were never will be another Holocaust again.
Who will stand for anybody who's Jewish and who's being attacked because they're Jewish and who's suffering any form of bigotry? We're the same people. And the reason our position has integrity is that what we would do to defend the Jewish people on this planet if we don't do that for the Palestinians, for others. Especially those who are being harmed by the formerly oppressed people, then we have no
integrity. So if you support Israel, then you will support the end of this slaughter and the end of them living in a prison called Palestine. And there you go. Oh, man, it seems like. It seems like I've been either talking about this issue or writing about it since since I got out of high school.
You know, and part of that was because those of us who grew up in southeastern Michigan and Flint and Detroit, Ann Arbor, we, our neighbors, our friends and our classmates, many, many, many Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, Palestinian Americans. And so the propaganda that we get fed as Americans about who we're supposed to hate and never could, really, really couldn't get through to us growing up in that environment because we, we knew them and saw them and lived
with them as human beings. So it's one of the reasons, I guess, I don't know. I've cared about this for a long time. And I also cared about it because being in the post war, post Holocaust generation, growing up in the 50s, you couldn't, you couldn't ignore what had just happened a few years earlier and the slaughter of millions and millions of Jews all, all throughout Europe. It's the madness of all of this has gone on for way too long.
And President Biden, please, please, you hold the power to turn this thing around. There are millions of good Israelis, good people in Israel who don't want this either and want the hostages back. Palestinian families want their prisoners that are in Israeli jails back and nobody wants this
to continue. Only the few crazies in the Netanyahu war cabinet and the, the and the the total insanity of people going into that techno concert down in southern Israel and just slaughtering a bunch of young people who are listening to music. It's all madness. It's all madness. We have the power to stop it. We know the right thing that we have to do. And President Biden, you have to do your part.
Why are you risking having even 10,000 people not show up who are just deciding they've already decided they're not going to vote because of this? Hillary lost Michigan by 10,000 votes. Don't make the same mistake, please. Again, my thanks to all the people that are trying to help out here, all the different Palestinian groups, the Jewish Voice for Peace, thank you so much for your good work. Anybody can join by the way, Jewish Voice for peace. You don't have to be Jewish.
You can they they allow us, those of us not Jewish in the auxiliary branch or what? I'm just kidding. I don't know. Know what? What All I know is I sent in my dues and now I'm a member and I participate and and I care deeply about the well-being and the safety of Jews around the world. I care deeply about the rise of anti-Semitism and the and the weird hatred that has gone on for well, in their case, literally thousands of years. All of this must come to an end.
Thank you my friends for listening to this compilation show here today. I'm Michael Moore. My thanks to my Executive Producer Angela Vargos, our editor and a great friend, Donald Bornstein, who put together today's show and who's also done his own great writing about what's been going on since October 7th. Thank you Donald, for that. And thanks to all of you who participate and listen to this podcast. There are more of us than there are of them.
Those of us who want peace, those of us who demand. Peace and an end. An end to the slaughter. We'll talk soon.