Hello again Debbie. Hello. Welcome back. Thank you. We had a really good response to our last conversation so I am excited about doing another one and I think probably a lot of other people will be as well. Oh good. But what I wanted to do, you introduced yourself last time. Okay. I know you teach a Sunday school class here at the church Sundays at 9 a.m. Yes. Tell us a little bit about what you're studying right now. We are just starting a new book.
We finished Esther with Max Locato, his book on Esther and we just are starting a book from David Jeremiah called The Overcomer. He's going to really dig into the armor of God and how we can protect ourselves and every chapter is about a different piece of the armor. Right now he started the opening with David and Goliath. Wow. And he told the ultimate overcomer story. Yes. The poster child for overcomer but he's going to end with Jesus
Christ who of course is the ultimate overcomer. So it's going to be good. Anyone who would be interested, we'd love to have them. We do all of our reading in class and we have some great discussions about what we're reading as we're reading through the book. Well you're very gracious towards your class. We'd have like I used to just berate people. We're going to read one chapter, have the chapter read, underline stuff and have stuff to discuss with the class. And they would
try like five minutes before the class. You haven't thought about it. Right. So you've kind of just thrown in the towel and say we'll just read it in class. Yes. Okay I understand. I understand. Well I'm going to let you lead our conversation today. Okay. So where would you like to start? Well I know you're starting a new series and it is The Big Picture, The Covenants, and Sunday was about the big picture of Scripture. And you went back to Genesis,
but you're preparing us to be a New Testament church. And so some of the things that you talked about of course about God first of all and about God's original plan is still the plan. Right. And that there's not another plan. But from that a couple of things that I wrote down because most of us know that much. We know creation. We know the Garden of Eden. But you talked about and if I quote this wrong, correct me. Okay. Sometimes I paraphrase in my own words
that God will resurrect you with the skills that you have developed in this life. And so I'd like to know more about that. Okay. When you say skills are you talking about the work we all the work that we do while we're here or is it divided into the work we do for God and his ministry. What does that look like? So this is a big topic. One of the goals of this series is to lay the foundation for interpreting Bible prophecy. Okay. So we're going to talk about the covenants this Sunday.
How the Abrahamic covenant is basically God's commission to Adam in the Garden of Eden. Eden. It's the same thing. He's going to give him a specific plot of land from which he is going to have a line of kings and he's going to multiply and have descendants as many as the sand on the seashore. Right. Right. It's the exact same thing God tells Adam to do in the Garden of Eden. He
tells Abraham to do. He's just rebooting the same plan. So all of this is going to lay the foundation for how do we interpret Bible prophecy, which is very complicated. Right. I mean there aren't that many pastors or even seminary professors that understand Bible prophecy. And so but if you understand the covenants, Bible prophecy seeks to answer the question, how and when is God going to fulfill these promises in scripture? So
we're going to speak about things you can find, ideas that are implicit in Bible prophecy. So the resurrection, okay. Some implicit ideas in that. God is resurrecting something that existed beforehand. That's something we discussed I think in our last podcast. It's the same body. It's the same brain. Your brain will have the same information. You know, and so God isn't going to wave a magic wand over your brain and download a bunch of
information. You know, the process is going to be energized and glorified, but it's going to be the same. There's still going to be a process for learning new skills. And so God is going to have a starting point. Your character, your understanding, there's a starting point for the process of learning new skills to build a new kingdom. God's going to have all kinds of new ideas, you know, but yeah, he's going to take the starting point that you have is what he's going to
resurrect. He will glorify that and we don't know what that means or how it's going to work, but there's going to be a starting point. You know, you're not going to become a super disciple just because you've been raised from the dead. If you were a lazy, half-hearted, lukewarm Christian, when you were raised from the dead, that's going to be reflected in your resurrected body. Now it says this in 1 Corinthians 15, okay. Okay. Did we cover that last week? I don't remember.
I don't think so. I'll edit it in like I did last time. Okay. 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is talking about the resurrection from the dead. Almost the whole chapter is about the resurrection from the dead and he's comparing different kinds of bodies. He's like the body of a fish is different from the body of an animal and so forth and so on. And he also talks about the stars. He says, so the star differs from star in brightness and you think about the vast variety of differences in brightness
of stars. Paul says, so it will be at the resurrection from the dead. And he goes on, you fool, don't you know that what you sow, you know, if you sow an apple, you're not going to grow an orange, you know, that type of thing with a type of seed. And he's talking about the type of seed and he's talking about what we sow in this life is going to be manifest at the resurrection from the dead. And just as there's a variety of different glories of body here and now,
that's going to be how it's going to be at the resurrection from the dead. So we're sowing by developing first of all as disciples, uh, there are competence in other areas like you worked in the school system. So you had to develop competence leading and managing people, right? Right. That's a competence that God intends to use in some form or fashion in the next stage. And that's why it's very important that we're obedient to follow the Holy Spirit into, uh, taking our assigned
spot in this life. You know, it's like, I didn't want to be a preacher as the last, literally that was the last thing on earth I wanted to do with my life is like, it was almost like I couldn't avoid it. So, uh, but once I accepted it, I was like, I love what I do, you know? Yes. Uh, but God's going to put us in the slot where he wants us in this life to develop us in some way because he's got a plan in the future for that, you know, and our suffering and trials as well, you know?
So that all, I, everything we're learning that would help further the kingdom, makes you feel good. Uh, but what about the weaknesses? So, um, let's just take worrying, you know, uh, do, will I in the, after the resurrection still be a worrier about things or will that's an important question. You know, I, I wonder, is there going to be stress? You know, stress is actually a useful thing. Uh, am I going to be concerned about things?
I wouldn't use the term worry, but am I going to be concerned about things? Because really low key fear like that is just what we're talking about at the end of the day really helps me to focus and get motivated to do something hard. Okay. Right. Yeah. And so I don't know. It says in the book of revelation that at the resurrection from the dead and the inauguration of the kingdom, God will wipe every tear from every eye. Yes. Right. And I'm wondering, well, what are they crying
about in the first place? They're in, they're in heaven. You know, here's your question. Yeah. Well, he wouldn't be wiping those away. That's true. Uh, but there are, uh, verses like, I always get this wrong. First Corinthians chapter three, I believe every person's work will be tested. Some will, uh, produce gold, silver and precious stones and they'll receive a reward. Some will produce wood, hay and stubble and it will be burned up, but they will be saved
and they will suffer loss. It says, and they will enter the kingdom as one barely escaping the flames. That certainly doesn't sound very comfortable to me. It sounds like some negative emotions involved there to me, you know, so, but I don't think they will dominate us and paralyze us like they do now. Like my worry, is it going to cause me to procrastinate like it does now, or it's not going to cause me to binge eat, you know, or whatever, however you deal with your
anxiety. Right. So, okay. All right. Well, so basically if, if, if I can summarize, tell me if I'm, I'm off here, whatever we're doing, we are growing or should be growing absolutely, uh, into the, the person really God created us to be. Yep. Um, and so really all of it is helping us move toward that, toward that place or toward that time. Glorification. Uh, and I believe we're going to continue to evolve, you know, cause we're, when, as we age, as we grow,
we're evolving either positively or negatively. And I believe we are going to be evolving forever because God is an infinite being and we're growing into his image and likeness. There's unlimited growth potential. That's one of the exciting things about heaven. You think about just a static existence where you never change or learn to develop. That sounds boring, you know? Right.
So that's the exciting thing. Our evolution is going to be going to hyperdrive, you know, uh, because our, our fallen nature, whatever that entails as far as our brain and emotional chemistry and things like that is going to be corrected. Everything's going to be corrected. And so we'll be able to make progress so much faster, but that's the exciting thing. We're going to still be making progress, you know, because we're going to be able to make progress
on that. You know, so all of that usually seems very, uh, vague. I mean, there's a verse here or there, but, um, it's hard to find, I guess, people who studied the Bible or pastors or who even agree about what all that will look like. So what do you, what do you use to base is, do you, I mean, I know you take the Bible, but do, do you, is there someone or something that kind of guide you in pulling that together as well? Because, you know, it, there's a lot out there that's
in some cases contradicting. That is the perfect question. That's why you're such a good partner in these podcasts. That is exactly the right question because that is a very contentious biblical eschatology and Bible prophecy is a very contentious, uh, topic and field of study. Okay. So yes, I have a high degree of certainty that we have the correct position. Now I'm not saying we,
but we, we have it in, uh, in, in biblical history. Okay. So I'm going to give you three legs upon which we can have relative certainty that how we interpret Bible prophecy is correct. Now, a lot of these things that we're going to be talking about aren't really about like premillennialism, postmillennialism. It's just, this is clearly, clearly what God has intended for the future. Everybody believes that everybody believes we're going to be bodily resurrected
from the dead on this earth, uh, in a renewed heaven and earth. Okay. You know, so the, the, uh, disagreements are about the process by which that's going to happen, but everybody has that endpoint. Okay. Uh, but we are going to be discussing the process. I believe that is an important conversation and I believe that we can have relatively high degree of certainty that we're understanding it correctly. Three things.
We have the Dead Sea Scrolls. Okay. So the, and I would recommend this series. It's called the Perusia series on the foundrypress.org. Fascinating, fascinating. So the Zadok Priesthood is mentioned in Ezekiel. They get this special assignment, allotment of land in the millennial kingdom after the return of Jesus. And I'm like, who are these people and why are they so special?
So I started doing research. Well, whenever Israel was falling apart and, uh, say two to 300 years before the coming of Jesus, these guys took all of the, the documents from the temple library and they went to the desert in Egypt and they took the temple library and they went to the desert in Egypt and they took the temple library with them to protect them so that they weren't, weren't lost. Well, those are the documents that were discovered in the Dead Sea
Scrolls. And so they discipled this group of people called the Essenes. It is remarkable how accurate their prophecy was. So Josephus, the historian Josephus writes about the Essenes and he says, they were rarely if ever wrong in anything they predicted. So let me tell you some of the amazing things they predicted. They, they predicted to the year that Messiah was going to come, that he was going to suffer and die and be crucified by the apostate religious leaders.
And they predicted it. What happened on AD 30? Wow. Here's another thing they predicted. They predicted 40 years later, the temple would be destroyed. They predicted that a Benjamite would start a new priesthood with Gentile believers. I mean, it's crazy. And I could go on and on, but all of this is recorded in the Dead Sea Scrolls several hundred years before the New Testament times even happened. They predicted a literal future 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ.
So people who criticize premillennialism, which is a way of understanding the end time say, well, there's only one verse in the Bible that even talks about that. Why do you take it literally? Well, there's a lot of other material that talks about it as well. So obviously the Zadok priest and the Essenes, that's how they understood it. Okay. So we've got the, the testimony of the Dead Sea Scrolls. If we take the Bible to say what it means and means what it
says, there will be a literal future 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth. That's from the book of Revelation. You can also find that in the Old Testament. It doesn't necessarily talk about a literal 1000 year reign, but it talks about an intermediary period after Messiah starts
ruling before. And there's like this mixture between the two ages, let's say. So then you have the early church fathers, the early church fathers, those that existed within the first 300 years of the church were predominantly premillennial in their understanding of biblical eschatology. They believed in a literal future 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth in an intermediary period before we have a new heaven and a new earth. Okay. So, so I'll name, I'll name
a couple of names. Now, if I get these out of order, forgive me, but, uh, this, the story's going to be correct. There's a guy named Polycarp who was got to sit at the feet of the apostle John. Okay. And he's got, it's recorded in his writings. The apostle John told me personally there would be a literal future 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ. So I like to say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Right. I'm pretty sure John probably understood what he was writing. Right.
So you have Polycarp and you have another early church father named Papias and they both got to be in the orbit of the apostle John. So you've got Polycarp, Papias and Irenaeus. And so they were all kind of like Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp type of thing. They were all pre-millennial in their understanding of biblical eschatology or Bible prophecy. So I like to say pretty sure
they probably knew what they were talking about. You know, uh, now there were other ways of understanding things, but, uh, Thomas Oden, who's considered the father of modern petristics, which is the study of the early church fathers. He was a Methodist, very highly regarded scholar. Uh, the majority of the early church fathers were pre-millennial in their understanding of scripture. So take those three things and then we'll throw John Wesley in there. Okay. So,
and I've got all of this documented. If you were to go to, uh, the foundrypress.org, uh, I've got a collection, a bundle of articles called a Wesleyan view of eschatology. All of this is documented. So you can go follow the links and look for yourself. John Wesley was presented with a pre-millennial view of, uh, scripture and he affirmed that it was the opinion of the early church fathers and it is correct. Now he was a mixture of post-millennial and pre-millennial
when he was presented with a clear, uh, presentation of pre-millennialism. He says, yeah, that's right. You know? Yeah. So we've got those four things, things now, the Zadok priests, the Bible, the early church fathers, and John Wesley. And John Wesley was right about just about everything. He was, he was an amazing guy. Well, so that's going to drive your new series. I don't know how deep into the, the eschatology stuff we're going to get when we're talking about the big picture.
We're just helping people get out of their, you know, those kinds of Disney world views of heaven that most people carry around in their brains. Um, you know, your future is on the earth in a resurrected body. Um, you're going to be participating in all kinds of projects, building a kingdom. And so don't just think you're going to hit the escape hatch and go on one giant vacation for the rest of eternity. That's not how it's going to work. It's going to be a
work, you know, there's work to be done. There's work to be done. And that, and that ought to be exciting. I know we have, we still deal with the curse here and now. So we kind of have a negative association with work, but there are people who love their work and there isn't anything they'd
rather be doing. And that's kind of what God has in mind for us, you know? Right. So, well, when I think about the two views, one that everything will be, as you said before, um, not thinking about having to work or, or doing, being a part of that, but just heaven being that ideal place. And then I think about working, that's, that's a mind shift for a believer. While there is comfort in one, what I think the conflict comes in, what do I do with the other one? If that's not the case,
then I mean, what should I be doing then while I'm here? It seems like there's more I need to be doing when I look at the view you've described versus the view I had before. So let's talk about our Wesleyan bread and butter message sanctification. Hi. Um, sanctification is about becoming perfected as a believer. And you have to tie in the topic of heavenly rewards here. Well, in what way are we going to be rewarded? Well, think about the things you value in this
life. Do you value the people that you get to associate with? Do you like hanging around with people who have really bad character traits and don't know how to act right and don't take a bath every day? Do you like associating with people like that? Hmm. Probably not. Permission to speak freely. Okay. And there are people that we aspire to be in a relationship with because of what they know or who they know. That person can elevate us by being in a relationship with them. Okay. And
so we all want to be in relationships with people that can elevate us. Right. So when we talk about things like heavenly rewards, all these things come into play. You care about how you dress, right? You care about what kind of house you live in. Well, the Bible speaks of all of these things as being rewards for believers associated with what kind of person they become in this life. So God isn't going to take some, you know, I wasn't raised right, so forgive my vocabulary.
God isn't going to take some backward loser, right? And attach them to mother Teresa, right? Mm hmm. Mother Teresa is going to be placed around other people where she takes great joy and pleasure as her reward in the people she gets to associate with, right? And the backward loser gets to hang out with other backward losers. He still gets to be in the kingdom. Okay. But don't go thinking that
it's going to be the same for you as it is for, you know. So this is why we need to develop the ability to relate to other people in healthy ways because God is going to reward us in various and manifold ways based upon the type of character traits we developed. Now those can be found in the Sermon on the Mount. That's why the Sermon on the Mount is such an important, it's called the gospel of the kingdom. Mm hmm. Because these are going to be the character attributes that God is
going to reward for all eternity, you know. Okay. I spent like six months preaching on the gospel of the kingdom or the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount. Because it's so important. John Wesley, out of his 52 standard sermons, which are considered authoritative for Methodists, like 12 or 13 are on the Sermon on the Mount. Wow. It's a very important topic because these are the raw materials upon which God is going to build the kingdom. Those character attributes,
the Beatitudes. Blessed are the poor in spirit. People who have shed their sense of entitlement and embraced humility, right? Mm hmm. Blessed are those who mourn. People who are, I can see my sin and I feel really bad about it, you know. Blessed are the meek. People who use their strength to benefit others, not themselves. I mean, primarily benefit others. You all, you know, God always blesses both sides of the equation. They will inherit the earth. You know. Yes. So, and you know,
think about, no, that really means what it says. You know, and God is going to reward people and doing those things is tough. It's tough to live like that. Now I can act like, I can act like that at church on Sunday morning, but to do that all week around people that don't do it back to me, that's tough. Yeah. Out in the world. Not sitting in the booths, but out in the world. Yeah. You know, what does that look like? And I know, I came across a little section. Can I, may I read it to you? Oh,
yeah, absolutely. This is Blackabees experiencing God devotional. And I was just reading the devotional, but it reminded me a little bit of this. So I thought I wanted to ask you about this. It comes from Romans 10, 14 through 15. And it says, it is God's desire that anywhere there is a Christian, God has a way for people to learn of his salvation. That comes from the Romans. Then he goes on to say, whenever an unbeliever meets a Christian, the unbeliever ought to be face to face
with everything he needs to know in order to follow Christ. When I think about the sermon and what I need to be doing here, whether I'm at work, at church, wherever I am, whatever I'm doing, I should be an example of Christ to others. Absolutely. And that's what made me think of the work and the skills that you talked about. That it's all the time, everywhere. Absolutely. And that's like your entire life being an act of worship. Right. Worship isn't just something you
do on Sunday morning. It's like your entire life is worship, you know? Yeah. And it goes back to, I repeat it all the time, if you do these things and teach others to do the same, you will be called great. So it's every person's responsibility to preach the message. Yeah. You know, to be able to share the message with others. And I think that's probably based upon how blessed are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace from Romans. I think that's Romans 10 maybe. Let's see.
It is Roman, this is 11 through 14, I think. And it talks about, as the scripture says, anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame. There's no difference. And then he goes on to say, everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Yeah. Well, that's, you know, that's everybody's responsibility. And when you start to get these concepts, and they start to sink in, it does cause you to think about how you act,
what you do with your time, what you do with your money, you know? Maybe I should stick out this tough relationship because I feel like I'm supposed to stay in this relationship, you know? So it does cause you to really reevaluate, should cause you to reevaluate everything, you know? Right. And the hard part is getting people out of the Disney World mindset, but then it's also difficult
getting them to actually believe that this is what God has planned for the future. And so, this is what God has planned for the future because there's accountability that comes with that, you know? And consequences that come with that. And a lot of people like staying in their comfortable place. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So. And I think if you take it too far and say, well, I can't be perfect all the time, all day long, everywhere. I get mad or I have anger,
I have jealousy or I have envy or whatever it may be. I'm not going to be a perfect example of Christ every moment of every day. Yeah. Well, and so, in thinking about those things, we all have those kinds of negative emotions, which isn't sinful in and of itself. It's learning not to manifest them in unhealthy ways. Right? You can still, you cannot, it's actually sinful to completely sublimate those things. You know, it's unhealthy to vomit them on people in an unrestrained way.
You know, it's James who says he who controls his tongue is perfect. Right? And so it's learning to allow those things to motivate us, but then manifest them in healthy, constructive ways. That's the goal, you know? And yeah, I mean, nobody ever gets that right and all the time, but I'm getting better. I'm working at getting better. And I've got another 30 years or so. Right? Right. To really get it going a lot better than what I do now. Absolutely. Always growing,
always trying to improve, always trying to, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good. I just heard my camera click in the background, so I think our 30 minutes is up. Okay, good. Well, I think we're going to have to stop. Well, is that okay? Yeah, I think it was a great conversation, good place to stop. And do you want me to give you that? If you're going to insert it's actually, I read the wrong
part. It's Romans 10, 14 and 15, which is how then can they call on the one they have not believed in and how can they believe in the one on whom they have not heard and how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And then 15, and how can they preach unless they are sent as it is written, how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news. Amen. Yeah. Good words. That's for everybody.
Right. Well, he goes, he talks about Israel and about the reason this caught my eyes because he talks about the original plan for Israel was to be a beacon for other nations, but they never could get there because they, they disgraced him. What did he say? They forsook him and practiced every kind of sin rather than being ambassadors for God. And then he puts that in the middle. And then he says to us, we got to be careful that we don't do the same thing. He cut off those branches. Don't
think it couldn't happen to you. So sorry, all of you, eternal security people that directly contradicts your theology. I'm sorry. Yeah. But that's hard for people, I think, to hear, don't you? Well, yeah, I prefer to think that once I'm saved, I'm good. I punched my ticket and absolutely gravy train time. Yes. And they're, they're, yes. Yeah. But you've got to, you've got to, if your whole series is, is building towards that, then I think it's going to take it.
Yeah. I don't think it's going to be one sermon is what I'm saying. Right. I think. Right. But good. Well, and this is why my wall's covered with pictures of the spot, you know, because Israel, Israel is just like, you know, Genesis chapter one and two was the plan. Israel and Jerusalem are the plan. Jesus is going to come back. Jesus is returning to a specific spot and that's where he's going to take over. So, uh, I can't wait for that day to happen.
Yes. Okay. Well, you think you got something? I do. Okay. All right. I'm not even going to have to do any editing on that. I don't think. Oh gosh. Well, so, okay. Yeah. Thanks for coming in and doing this. Okay. And we'll, uh, we'll do it again. Sounds good. Yeah. Yep. All right, sir. Like I say, that one that we did.