Welcome back to the Messy Reformation. My name is Jason Rice and I'm the lead pastor at Faith Community CRC in Beaver Dam, Wisconsin. My co-host is Willie Cronkey. He's a member at P CRC in P's Minnesota. We're just a couple of guys who love the Christian Reformed Church and want to see Reformation happen in our denomination. But we realize that whenever Reformation happens in the history of the church, things get messy. And things continue to be messy in the Christian Reformed Church.
So we're taking the opportunity to have conversations with pastors throughout the Christian Reformed Church to find out what's going on in our denomination, but also to talk about what Reformation might look like. It's also important for you to know that you are our marketing plan. We rely on you to spread the word about what we're doing at the messy Reformation. We rely on you to share our content. And we rely on you to give us five star reviews and give good feedback for our podcast.
You are the marketing plan. You can also support us financially on Patreon or Substack. All of the money raised is used to further the mission and the platform of the messy Reformation. With all that said, we're going to get to this week's episode, which is part two of a conversation between Willie, Dan, and I about Reformed ecclesiology and the 2025 Messy Reformation Conference. As we've been preparing, we're not coming into this either.
You're not going to come to the messy Reformation and get the world's top scholars on Reformed ecclesiology. I mean, we're close, but we're not. We're right under top tier, no. Where are your average Joe pastors and non-passers who love this stuff? But what you're going to get are some average Joe guys who love this and are studying it and want to be able to share some of that with you.
And then obviously, part of the reason why we're doing these interactive workshops is because we believe that we're not the smartest people in the room. And when we bring people together, I think maybe this is getting into the theology of this. But it's a pretty strong opinion that I think the Holy Spirit speaks stronger through groups of people than through individuals, right? That's part of our ecclesiology when we get up into broader assemblies as well.
And so the benefit of us doing our conference this way is you're not listening to one person standing up there saying, "This is the only way, but we have a group of people trying to discern through the power of the Spirit and what God is teaching us in his word about who we are as the church." And so we think having these interactive workshops actually is going to help better equip people than having the world's top scholars here, to be honest.
But as we're working already, we're starting to kind of prepare some of our sessions and stuff. We've been diving deep into Bovingk for a little bit and we'll be continuing to do that up through April. What are some of the things that have been jumping out at you guys and kind of struck at you as you've been preparing this now? Yeah, I'll go. So one of my topics is going to be the government of the church.
And even before, what I've been doing, again, more work on is kind of commission past your stuff. And so back in the 1970s, 1973, the CRC said that I don't know how they got their work done because there was a ton of stuff. But one of those things was looking at basically office and kind of what it is we believe when it comes to the offices of Minister Elder and Deacon and any others that would be considered. And with that, there was a shift.
And I would say it probably was happening before then already. But you can see, and this is going to be really nerdy, and so only some of our audience will understand it. But Montsman, Vendellin's church order commentary really gets into what I'm seeing is from Bovingk when it comes to the threefold office of Prophet Priest King is represented in the offices of the church. It's represented kings as the elders. I think the priest are the deacons and the prophets are the pastors.
And in the 70s, the CRC underwent a shift kind of getting away from that. And I would say the reason for getting away with it was an emphasis on the priesthood of all believers. And it probably threw the baby out with the bathwater on that one. But all that to say, I'm seeing in Bovingk that there's a rich history of that. But also, Bovingk brings up how Bovingk tries to bring these things together.
He does mention the threefold office, but he also talks about how believers have the threefold obligation to join the church, to use their gifts for the benefit of the body, and to be active in the formation and reformation of the church. And that's an incredible thing that when we think about government, again, this is all coming from a government section or a polity section in the Reformed Ognatics, that it's not just about leadership.
I preached yesterday, I'm preaching on Jesus I Am statements, and so I am the Gator and I am the Good Shepherd. And so when we think about the hired hand or when we better yet think about the watchmen, one of the applications that can be made is that the office bares of the church are tending to the sheep, but they're also sheep themselves. And I think the Reformed theology, when it comes to polity, yes, it emphasizes that there is an office, there is a gifting that God has put among his people.
But still, we are part of the flock and the priesthood of all believers is an extremely important thing. And I think that's a really important thing for this moment in the CRC. As much as we talk about what Synod is doing and people are making decisions, and it can seem like we're becoming almost like a what Bavink I think would refer to as like an Episcopal government, kind of like the Catholic Church. That is not what we are to be.
And so it's a good thing to check ourselves that we're not trying to do that. We're not trying to have too much authority that isn't scriptural. Well, and you know, going along with that, you know, I got to say that really plays itself out, you know, in how we have what we call our parody of offices, which, you know, essentially just means no office lording authority over another. But even so, when you get into that threefold office, it makes you raise that question.
And then even the question of how each of our three assemblies, you know, have relations to one another. Excuse me. So I really do think, you know, what you're saying is exactly right. I think a lot of the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater here.
And I really think a recovering of these things on the ecclesiological level, on the church level, is something that is important for us to be studying so that we can understand, you know, this is not the way that these offices have been understood historically. At least not, you know, over the last hundred years. Some of the ways that we view the offices are very new and new, I mean like the last 20 to 30 years new.
So recovering these things I think gives us a better sense of our not to start confessional identity, but our historic identity as far as our top scholars have gone. Yeah, why don't you guys dive into both of you mentioned throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We'll kind of talk on that a little bit more.
Yeah, so I think one of the, one of the things that was noted in, I want to say was sent in 2001 was when we started kind of implementing or starting to look at doing a study committee to get into the commission pastor office that we have today. And they're, they're read their take on what happened in the 70s was that we got into more of a functional form of church government that we were just looking at things as tasks. And we kind of forgot the consecration part of it.
We forgot that like, Bobbing uses the terms of giftings. It's not so much. Something to be used specially for the church that that's where that's what the leaders have that that's what makes them different. And that's a way better focus I would say when it comes to polity. Then what we see in some churches when you have someone who maybe lets their name stand for elder and deacon year after year and doesn't get in.
And it becomes, it becomes a popularity contest and Bobing is clear to say no like. Yes, we have to be careful with how we do our elections and how we do casting of lots, but even more so like there is a consecrated gifting by God. Not everyone is meant to be an elder or deacon or pastor for that matter. And I think that to me that's part of it is that we have, and I think this goes well beyond just the CRC is that you have a lot of Bible loving people, God loving people, especially young man.
I think this is part of the young restless and reform movement, right? They say, well, the church is doing it wrong. And I love theology. I love reading. I love listening to pastors. And so I better be one. And in a system that does not properly vet when it comes to gifting and calling and those sorts of things, you have people who get in.
And so I think the historical focus of the CRC and actually like having a pretty tight reign on, let's see if these gifts, let's do examination before ordination is a really important part that we've seen. Not every class is not throughout the entire denomination, but we've seen in some places start to lack.
And I think in tandem with that, you know, Bovink was also insistent that just because, you know, one might be suited for one office does not mean that they're suited for the other or for both. And again, I think that's where our pragmatics have kind of taken over a little bit, especially in the last 50 years. You know, you say someone's so and so has served as a deacon. Oh, I think they might make a good elder. That begs the question as to why.
And Bovink, you know, like you're saying, he always went back to what is the spiritual giftedness of this individual? Does this individual actually possess the abilities to teach, you know, shepherding the flock of God? Or are they just, you know, a nice person who can maybe serve the church in more of a physical sense? Well, maybe they're not, maybe they're not actually being put up for the correct office here.
And that's something that I think you're hitting Bovink's take on gifting exactly right. And that's something that I think we need to think about in our churches because otherwise, if you see both offices as essentially the same, just with different names, then what you will eventually lower the bar to is any warm body who says, yes, gets to fill these positions. And Bovink is very clear that, you know, one who is not suited, you know, must not serve.
And that's something that, again, needs to be reformed. You mentioned the pragmatic part, and another piece that I'm seeing is that there's a necessary piece of things to understand context. And so one of the things I'm finding is, you know, I grew up reading scripture, grew up having elders and deacons and ministers of the word around me. And you just assume, oh, we are doing it, we are doing it specifically the way the Bible says.
And something that came out of '73, that came out of 2001, and that I'm also seeing kind of come through and Bovink too, is that there is a sense of like, there isn't, I'm probably going to destroy this now, right? The way that elders and deacons and church councils effectively function in the local context kind of has some flexibility to it. Right, there are certain things they have to do, but really, if we just say, well, we have the way that scripture sets out.
Scripture, I would say, sets out the model, especially because the New Testament in particular was so focused on the apostles, and then the apostles told the local church appoint people to do the work. How that ended up looking in every single local location, we don't have the explanation of. And so, like, that's an important piece that I use the word conservative. Like a conservative, just very traditional CRC congregation might think, oh, we're doing it exactly the way the Bible said to do.
And that can lead itself into just doing a pragmatic thing. And again, as you talked about, Willie, deacons become junior elders, and that's not the gifting piece. And that's also not contextual. And so I do think like there's, it's challenging, right? Because it means that as your church grows, or as it decreases in size, as your area changes, what you might be doing might be called to focus. Again, the gifting is the same. The central tasks or purposes are the same.
But how you live those out as a church, and especially in a council as office bearers, there is some flexibility to that. And so don't just assume because we have the reform kind of flexible, presubitary model that we must be doing it right. It takes some intentionality, just like every part of the church. I was struck in kind of skimming through some of these sections on Boving.
I just remember, I don't even know if it came from him or if it was just my own thinking, but just being reminded of how messy church governance was in the beginning. And, you know, we sometimes have a tendency, I know I do, because I love history to think like older times were better times. But like the early church was a mess. Trying to figure out how to support these churches, trying to figure out how to organize them.
You know, and the whole thing, the bishops, I know this wasn't involving, I don't think, but bishops came into play in the second century as churches were trying to figure out how do we better support one another. And even when the Reformation came about, there was a whole lot of discussion there about, okay, if we're not going to follow this kind of top-down model, what does that look like? And there are differences about that.
And so there's been a lot of discussion, and actually one of the things that really jumped out at me was even back in the early church, that bishops were becoming a thing, there was still like this poll in the church between, there are some people pushing from kind of a top-down leadership kind of approach, trying to give the bishops a lot of power, and other people pushing back saying, no, that's the local church has all the authority.
And there was this kind of tug going on back then, and really, I think, especially since the Reformation, that tug is, but we've heard that tug in the CRC over the last number of years, right? Where does the authority lay? Is it in the local church alone? Is it in the denomination alone? Or at Senate alone? Like, where is that? And I think it's helpful to know that that's been a tug in the church from the beginning, trying to figure out exactly how that plays out.
Yeah, and Bobby credits Calvin. I took out one of his quotes, but he credits Calvin as helping to restore the biblically-based presubatorial form of government of church government by restoring the office of Elder and Eacon alongside that of the pastor or of the minister of the word.
And so, we only mentioned the parody of offices, and that is crucial, right? But as I think about things that we've heard from the podcast over the last several years, in the past, you could have the farmer who might be only have a grade eight education, but in the olden days was super theologically well-rounded. I'm showing off a grade eight education, I feel like right now with my vocabulary, but anyways, you know, so, and yet that has drifted away, right?
Churches have desired because of this focus on clergy being well-trained and educated, they're the ones that go to seminary, they're the ones that learn the theology, they've kind of just given it over to us. And again, that's part of what I think I love Willie's role here is the non-minister is that, hey, like, the average church member can learn this stuff and can speak well on this.
Again, Willie has done a ton more reading of Bob Inke and other theologians than what I have and he puts me to shame, but I think that's just the beautiful part of it is recognizing, again, in the priesthood of believers, we don't just leave the work to a few. We're all to be involved in it, in the work and in the learning.
And I'll just go ahead and throw this out there. Thanks for the kudos, Dan. But it used to be, I guess I'm speaking to kind of my sadness of kind of where our culture is right now. I think our culture, we're in a very, you know, anti-intellectual, almost even anti-educational mindset. And that was not the case one and two hundred years ago.
It used to be, you know, just like you're saying, if you had somebody who was a typical laborer at any job, they at least still had very strong theological foundations. And, you know, even for our ministers, you know, the town minister used to be one of the more notably knowledgeable people in the town. And I'm not saying that that cannot be found anywhere, but I think that is becoming fewer and further between the further we get into the society that we're currently living in to.
So, again, I think this is calling for us to, you know, reach the bar a little bit higher and to just say, we are obviously two of you are from Wisconsin. I'm from Minnesota, young, dumb bumpkins. It's okay that we study a little bit of theology and even impart some of it too. Yeah, the name, the messy reformation, I mean, like the reformation in Europe, the continental reformation had such a heavy focus on that, right?
Because the people, the lay people, had not had the word of God in their language. And so, you know, I'm not saying we do this, but I mean the reformers and those who they held office with were able to go house to house and say, "Hey, get your butts over to church, get your butts to catechism." I'm not ready to do that in Baldwin at least yet, but they, you know, they, what they spurred on for a couple hundred years to get educated at the lay level is a really important thing.
They knew that it shouldn't, it shouldn't just be about the clergy because when it's just the clergy, you end up leading the corruption. Yeah, and I mean, this really hits on so many things, really. It really hits on really the base, you know, the name of our conference, right? We're calling it the spiritual heart of a reformed church because bawving roots the whole theology of the church in the theology of the Spirit, right?
The Spirit, if there is, the Spirit is the core of the church, which has a lot of implications as far as when it comes to, okay, if the Spirit's at the core of the church and we're having a discipleship problem, is the answer, it seems like the answer would be to follow the reformers and use almost governmental authority and force people to come to church and learn, and yet the Spirit has to be at work or that doesn't help either. Absolutely.
And so it's a reminder to us as well as pastors that even if we had, which we don't, this is another part of it, even if we had the authority to go house to house or drag people to church and force them to sit down and listen to our preaching. For one, we don't have that authority, we have the authority of the Word of God. But two, even if we did have that authority, nothing would happen unless the Spirit of God was at work.
And so it's a reminder for us in this time, and it really is one of the biggest struggles in our age, I think, but like I feel it really strongly in a church revitalization is that we have many people who need to be discipled, but they don't have a desire to be discipled, or they don't even fully understand how deep their need is to be discipled. And so it's hard, like we can hold Bible studies all the time and nobody will show up for it.
And so how do you disciple people who don't want to or don't even know they need to be discipled? I've got lots of thoughts on that, and if you want to hear those thoughts, you can come to the conference. But I can say one of the things, though, at the core of that is it starts with your preaching. Preach in such a way that you are discipling your people. If you're just preaching to hearts, if you're just preaching for applause, I mean, there's pastors you can hear them when they preach.
They're just preaching because they want people to be, "Wow, they're such a good speaker. If that's all you're doing, you're failing as a pastor." And if you're only preaching because you want, you're just preaching to the heart and you're not giving them any content, any depth. You're not actually discipling. You're just wanting people to feel a certain way. You're failing as a preacher.
Effective preaching is about figuring out, through the power of the Spirit, addressing the head and the heart at the same time. You want your people to know God for who He is and love Him. That's your goal. And when you start there, we then trust that the Spirit's going to start working on people and giving them a hunger and a desire to learn more, to be discipled more, to grow in their knowledge and love of the Lord.
And then that begins to open up the door for more opportunity for discipleship. But I really think that's the key in the messy reformation process of churches and denominations is it starts with our preaching and then underneath that a lot of prayer. We're kind of taking a hybrid model here between the continental Reformed and then the Puritans. We're obviously very continental Reformed in our theology, but you're emphasizing the Puritan trifecta, the head, the heart and the hands.
And I think it's okay that we're kind of dancing this hybrid right now because we need to understand that the head, heart and hand model is so time tested. And we understand that something cannot go to the heart without it first being in the head. We understand even from, you know, Greek language, metanoia, which is translated repent, it literally means change of mind or change of direction to turn from one thing and towards another thing.
And when that happens, the Holy Spirit regenerates, recreates the human heart and implant saving faith to an individual. They give them all of Christ's blessings. And when that happens, that faith does something. That faith is obedient. That faith is something that is spurred on to love and good works. You know, it is no dead faith. It works by love, according to Westminster Confession of Faith.
So again, we're kind of saying we love bawing and we love our continental creeds and confessions, but there is a little bit of the Puritan trues here that we're living into as well. It was funny because I was just reading a book on the early church recently and I came across a quote and it's long, so I'm not going to read it all. But anyways, it was somebody in the early church writing saying like, here's what an effective preacher needs to be.
And it was saying a lot of the same things that we were talking. And then he goes, there are far two preachers of this caliber. And so, you know, you think back, even in the early church, they were like, now we're looking around and there just are not enough people preaching in this way that is discipling and, and, and, and, and flaming the heart as well. And so, yeah, I think, you know, it's super interesting, right? I mean, I'm not the only one to say this.
People say this all the time, but we've seen it ourselves in another period of history that seems similar in a lot of ways to the Reformation where there's so many people and it's not, are people aren't unaware of the word of God because they don't have access to it. They are kind of unaware of the word of God because it has been kept from them, from those in the pulpit and those in their churches. And so they have broad access to it, but it hasn't been preached well enough for so long.
And so we are at the same similar period of recovery. And yet, as Dan said earlier, the solution isn't to just redo what they did in the Reformation. I would, I would, if my church would be willing, I would pull a Calvin and I would preach, you know, sermons through the book of Genesis every morning, Monday through Friday, you know, and then preach twice on a Sunday. Nobody would show up to do that. This is not going to work today.
And so what is going to work though, and that's really, I think one of the burning questions we need to figure out is what do we need to do to more effectively disciple our people because that's, that's really the key to future Reformation in our local churches, but even broader in our denomination. Yeah, I was back in Indiana for following Christmas and the last Sunday of the year and my parents passed through there in the URC in DeMott.
He was giving a farewell sermon, but he was like final point. He mentioned the Almighty smartphone and how people have no problem, right, scrolling through their phone for hours, learning about all different topics. But you ask people to read their Bibles or to dig into theology and we don't want to do it, right, and that's not the world. That's, that's believers and I know I'm just as guilty of that, right? I mean, I can, I can jump from one video to the next. I mentioned that to my people.
Like I have no idea why I, why certain videos end up on my screen, but they do. It takes such intentionality and again, you know, the devil's, the devil is doing great work in distracting us. But I think, you know, it's a being careful, right, that because we do live in an age in which people don't want to learn hard things. But people want to learn lots of things. And I think that's, yeah, somehow we need to reverse that trend again.
Sometimes I love the Amish, sometimes I despise the Amish, but, but there's something to the simplicity of life that I do think as much as it creates rebellion does encourage keeping focus on most important things. So I do not have the beard or the hat or complete wardrobe yet. So sorry. At least yet anyway. Yes. Yes. And I think kind of focusing on Bovingk and you know, we talk about might and power. You know, Bovingk had a very powerful doctrine of the sovereignty of God.
And, you know, like, like you're saying, Dan, like you were pointing out, this all starts with a very, very, very, very powerful doctrine of the sovereignty of God. This all starts with a very, very big doctrine of God. I was talking with somebody recently and they would say, what's the difference between like a Calvinist or a Reformed soteriology and an Arminian or even an open theist one. And really my answer is everything is dependent on God. Everything's dependent on him being at work.
You know, him bestowing Christ's blessings to his elect. Him building his church, you know, him bringing the culmination of all things unto himself. You know, everything is dependent on God. R.C. Sproul said, the biggest difference between Reformed theology and other theology is when we write our doctrine of God. That doctrine and its consistency does not leave our pen when we get to page two.
We are very careful to note God, you know, from him are, all things are from him and to him and through him. And that, I think, is the focal point. That was Bovingstriving point when he's talking about power and might is all of these things belonging to God. And since that's the case, all things are from God and are happening through the power of God and are unto the glory of God. So that's why our theology is the way that it is. That's why our conference looks the way that it does.
And that's the way, hopefully, our churches look the way that they look. Such as we need reforming, we understand where our bar is. It's totally dependent on God and his sovereignty. Amen. I wonder, yeah, and I know Willie has some Willie's topics, two topics are the Church of Spiritual Essings, essence, and the Church of Spiritual Power. When I think of the sovereignty of God, and I think what most people do, it's easy to just think of the person of the Father.
How is there something distinct that you would say, Willie, about the sovereignty of God, the Holy Spirit? I don't want to be a modalist here, right? I don't want to unnecessarily divide those, but is there something for us to kind of cling on to when it comes to the sovereignty of God, the Holy Spirit? This is where I'm going to give a great big leg up to our continental reform theology. This is an area in emphasis that I think we get this right.
We in the Reformed tradition have kind of given away the third person of the Trinity over to the Charismatics over the years, and I think that's unnecessary, because what is the primary work and role of the Holy Spirit? You know, Berkov's emphasis was actually the same as Bovinks, and it was to apply the work of Christ and the benefits of Christ to his elect people.
I think if we keep that as the central focus of our doctrine of the Holy Spirit, who is truly God himself, then I think we understand better what we always want to focus on when we talk about the Holy Spirit, you know, the spiritual gifts. Are you a cessationist? Are you a continuationist? And there is a spectrum of people on that, and I just think those conversations, however important, I think they do miss the initial mark.
The primary role of the Holy Spirit is not just to give gifts to his church. The church can't have the gifts of Christ without first having the benefits of Christ, the salvation of Christ, and that has to come with the Spirit taking away a heart of stone and creating a heart of flesh that we may obey his statutes, and he will be our God and we will be his people.
That's the primary role of the Holy Spirit as Bovinkside, and I think that's the importance that we need to have going forward as well. Yeah, so there's both a personal aspect of it, but also the larger, yeah, God's grand narrative or the big plan of God in salvation, that the Spirit is actively at work carrying out. Yeah, absolutely. And of course, we as agents, the Westminster Standards would say free moral agents, we're called to act as the Spirit acts.
We are to be keeping in step with the Spirit of God, but understanding that he is the initial operator first. God is always the one moving first. He's always the one doing first. And why is that? Because he's the first to do anything. He is the first to create, and it's after the creation, he gives us duties. And then it is in the assignment of those duties that we act. So understanding those things, I think, is really key to having a Reformed and understanding of the Holy Spirit.
Well, amen, brothers, it's a good conversation. I think we could probably keep on going, which is why we will keep on going at the conference. And hopefully you get a little taste of how this is going to be, and this was more off the cuff and not super prepared by us, just off what we've been reading, discussing lately. But we hope that you've benefited from this, and hope it's a little taste of what we're going to be talking about at our conference.
And I just want to encourage you to consider signing up for that conference. The Early Bird deadline is 15th, so it's just a little bit over a month away. And so it's 50 bucks to sign up for the conference itself, and then there's room and board above that. So if you want to sign up for the conference, you can go to the messyreformation.com. You'll see different posts about it, but there's also a tab at the top that has all of their information for the conference.
Go there, sign up for the conference through Eventbrite, and then you'll have instructions on how to book your room and sign up for food and all of that. The conference is April 28th through the 30th, so it gives us a little time after the Easter busyness, and when lots of pastors anyway, they're looking for a little bit of a time to recuperate after a busy season. And so, and it's right here in Wisconsin, and so, yeah, we just want to encourage you to get signed up for that.
Don't wait to sign up, sign up right away, at least for the conference, that way we have an idea of how many people are coming, and we can start getting some of the logistics taken care of on our end. And, yeah, it's our prayer that this would be a blessing to the church, and as a result of it, it can be our little role that we continue to play in this messy reformation.
Can I give an advertising plug real quick? So we're not sponsored, I don't think, by Reformation Heritage Books yet, but they are currently offering the Reform Dogmatic's 4-Value Set Deluxe Edition, and it's a nice imitation leather bound. It's on sale for $168, normally 300, and you can get free shipping. So, heritagebooks.org, if you are interested in that, I do mention it because that's what I just bought. Jason has sent me scan pages, and I'm like, I would much rather have the hard copies.
So if your interest is just so peaked and bobbing right now that you want to get your hands on the Reform Dogmatic's, be sure to check out Reformation Heritage Books. And if you're from Reformation Heritage Books and you're listening to this and want to sponsor our conference, then we would accept sponsors. Absolutely. That's all we have for this week. If you want to help us out and support the messy reformation, another thing you can do is sign up for our newsletter through Substack.
That way you'll get episodes and summaries sent directly into your email inbox. It also gives us the ability to communicate with our audience, which is one of the biggest struggles of a podcast. So head over to the messy reformation on Substack and sign up for our newsletter. But until then, don't forget this is Christ's Church, and he bought it with his blood. And we've been warned that wolves will come in trying to destroy the flock. So keep a close watch on your life and on your doctrine.
Reach the word in season and out of season, and keep fighting the good fight in this messy reformation.