How can we design a better restaurant?

Mike Kostyo (00:00) In this episode of The Mess Hall, we talk about the importance of play and creativity in our adult lives, which includes in cooking and eating experiences. And we talk with Rebecca Kilbreth, editor in chief of Restaurant Development and Design Magazine. She talks about current design trends in restaurants, nostalgia, moving away from samification and restaurant design, and how to tell a story in the design of a restaurant. Plus, in our five questions, she talks about the Western book, that had her by the throat. Mike Kostyo (01:06) So I thought we would talk about an article that you posted, I think it was a couple of weeks ago on LinkedIn, and the title of it was Fun Maxing. And we're definitely done with the maxing of everything, the fiber maxing. But it was a great article talking about why play is so important and almost how adults these days long for play again. And actually it made me think of it again, because then I posted an article a couple of weeks later. Maeve Webster (01:17) Yes. Mike Kostyo (01:32) about, I forget what the name of it is, but it's at a beach in the San Francisco area where it's a bunch of people getting together, digging a hole. And that's all it is. You get together, you dig a hole, and then you cover the hole back up. And that's your Sunday and you go home and you had a great time with people. And it's not a side hustle. You're not trying to make money. There's no purpose of it. And it's just fun. It's just fun in its purest form. And so I think it's come up a few times since then that we've talked about. the importance of having fun and creativity. And I was thinking about it today because I remember there was a study years ago and I wish I remember who did the study. And it was, in the past week, where were you most creative in your life? And the number one area that people were most creative was cooking. It was the one thing that they did on a regular basis and they felt like they were actually creating. And I think that there is a real opportunity for us to support people's sense of play and adventure and creativity, whether it's in their home kitchens or in restaurants these days. Maeve Webster (02:33) I totally agree. And I think it's so interesting when you look at the article, because several articles have come out in addition to the one that I posted about how do you get more fun into the workplace? How do you get more joy into daily activities? How do you infuse more joy into your life? So I think this is clearly a cultural issue that we're facing. I find it really interesting that almost never. are the ways that you can inject joy into your life tied to technology. It almost every single time, it's an analog, non-technology way to infuse joy. So I think that speaks to just yet another detrimental element to the amount of technology that we have voluntarily in most cases tied ourselves to and the desire to get away from that, right? That we're seeing play out in a lot of different ways. Mike Kostyo (03:01) Mm-hmm Maeve Webster (03:23) But yeah, I agree with you. mean, food is, food should be fun, right? Think of the old commercials about food. They were kind of silly and ridiculous in a lot of ways and what they weren't taking food very seriously. And so I think that we need to get back to that. It's fine to have very serious culinary experiences that are not necessarily based on joy, as we've seen play out so often. But I Mike Kostyo (03:28) Right? Yes, yes. Maeve Webster (03:50) I think the only challenge to that is economics, right? Because I think there's really no horrible thing that can happen if you take a chance and play with your food and it ends up not being great. You know, unless you're doing something unsafe and you make people sick, for the most part, there's really no bad thing that will happen except for the idea that you're wasting money. And I think that might be the only. Mike Kostyo (03:53) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm out. You wasted a minute. Maeve Webster (04:12) But that's a challenge, right? That's a solution to find. That's not an insurmountable hurdle. It's a solution to find to allow joy regardless of your economic circumstances. Mike Kostyo (04:14) Exactly. Absolutely. When fun comes in a lot of forms, creativity comes in a lot of forms. I was reading an article, I think in Fast Casual magazine, and I wish I remember the name of the restaurant. It's actually going to be part of my Monday Sparks So when this podcast comes out, I will already have posted it. There was a restaurant and they did a Margarita of the Month and they decided that they were going to do a mystery Margarita. And so it was based on the Airheads, you know, the marketing campaign that they did years ago. Maeve Webster (04:27) Mm-hmm. Mm. Mike Kostyo (04:50) with the mystery flavor. They were like, let's do a mystery flavor margarita. I think the color was clear almost, There was nothing indicating what the flavor might be. I started reading and I'm like, this is cute. But then they were talking about what happened when it hit the table. And everybody immediately starts sharing it with each other and starts trying to guess. And they sip it again. And it just changed the dynamic at the table. immediately and right there. Like it's already designed to be delicious. It's just a flavored margarita, and they say it's the best selling margarita that they've ever done by a factor of like five or 10 or something like that. And so I don't even, you know, think it has to take a crazy initiative It can be simple ideas that just kind of push people in the direction. of being playful and laughing and having fun with each other, you know. Maeve Webster (05:39) Yeah, I think, and this just occurred to me while you were talking, you know, one thing that's interesting is the parallel of so many people moving away from desserts or baked goods or any kind of sweet thing and the ongoing like kind of loss of joy in a lot of ways. Because you and I have talked about this, desserts are the dreamscape of food, right? Anything goes with desserts for the most part. You have some serious expectations with savory items, but desserts, Mike Kostyo (05:54) Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (06:06) it's a Willy Wonka dream fest, right? There's nothing that you can't pull off in the sweets category or the baked good category. And as we've forced ourselves to give that up for a whole host of reasons and, know, GLP ones and the whole thing at this point, how do we get back to that? Like, you know, you don't need to eat a chocolate cake slice as big as your head, but how do we start allowing people the joy of enjoying that? part of the meal, which is the last thing that you end up having. And that's what you're sent off with, right? That last joyful experience. How do we bring that back? How do we make it more permissible? like people allow themselves the joy of having that without the guilt and the, you know, and all the rest. It's interesting that those two things have happened at the same time. Mike Kostyo (06:47) Yeah Yeah, if a slice of cake comes out and you don't smile, there's probably an issue that's a little bit deeper. There's also, you know, in every study that's ever been done, you know, play makes you a better person in general. makes you more creative in general. It opens your mind to ideas in general. You tend to do, have less stress in your life. You tend to do better at work. And so I also think it's just so important for those of us that work in the food industry to take those times to play, to be creative. You know, how many times do we go in those innovation sessions where we're actually creating a menu item or a product, and we have those kind of creative workshoppy things that we're all going to do together. And for a lot of people, it's the first time that they've done anything like that in months. And it's a real hurdle to get past, There's so many times you're in those rooms together and there's that person who's the stick in the mud, who hates this idea. I'm not going to play. I'm not going to, do a game together. What are you talking about? And so if we're going to create, like you said, the food industry, make playful, fun products. We're not a lot of the other industries that, no offense to other industries, but there are some serious industries where there's just not a core element of innovation and play and creativity and fun. We're lucky that that is our industry. But I think we have to, flex that skill as a person more often in order to make better products that showcase that. Maeve Webster (08:13) think you are 100 % correct. And the thing about play, right? The thing that's so useful about play is that there is no transaction involved in it. And I think that's the problem with so many, not the problem, right? Like immersion sessions, they're there for a reason. And very often you are approaching a problem or trying to find a solution and there's a good reason for them. But what about doing immersions that are just there to inspire? It's just there. Mike Kostyo (08:22) Yes. Maeve Webster (08:39) to excite people and there is no transaction. There's no idea that you have to come out of it with four concepts or the next step. What if the whole point was just to get out there and play with food for the sheer joy of doing it and to inspire and excite people about the category that you're in or the industry that you're in? We so rarely have that non transactional. joyful experience and work. It almost always has to have a transaction on the back end. And that's fine because we're all in it to make money, but you need to have that other element as well. And how do we start doing that more often? Mike Kostyo (09:15) Agreed. And I think that's true in our personal lives as well, So this weekend I was at the Tom Bishop International Miniatures Show, which is here in Chicago. It's held every year and it is the miniatures community. So it's anybody that makes miniatures in any capacity. So I think the thing you often think of immediately is doll houses, but it's actually a really wide ranging community. Maeve Webster (09:18) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (09:37) And has gotten, I think I first went three or four years ago and it's gotten absolutely massive since then. If anything, I think they're busting out of the seams at the hotel that they hold it at because of everything we're talking about. You people wanting to get back into hands on hobbies and experiences. And the thing that you hear all the time, I think you hear this all the time, no matter what hobby you get into is you should sell it. You should sell that, you know? And it does the immediate, it's fine if you want to, it's fine if you're able to make it a career. Maeve Webster (10:01) Mhm. Great. Mike Kostyo (10:05) But there is something to the idea that I'm just in it for the joy of it, that it is not a side hustle for me. It's a Saturday sitting down, really focusing, and there's a true element of imagination that takes place in a world where you're trying to create a miniature scene I'm making a 70s Tiki basement right now. It's like a 70s style. basement with the tiki bar in the corner. And you think through what should be in that basement. If I lived in this place, what should it look like? And it, I making one table takes, eight hours. And so you're really, really zoned into it. You don't think about work. You don't think about all the issues happening in the world. And it's that flow state that everybody talks about. You feel like you're in that flow state for a few hours. It's the best. And you don't have to do miniatures, but yeah. Maeve Webster (10:30) Excellent. Mike Kostyo (10:54) Is there anything in your life that you feel like it's not a side hustle? It's not about making money. It's just the pure enjoyment of it. And that's why I do it. Maeve Webster (11:02) You know, I was at a client event. This was two years ago. And as part of the event, they decided to have a couple of hours where they got everybody to, it wasn't a why. was, think it was a shelter. I don't remember exactly, but the, a family shelter. And the idea was all we were going to do was spend a couple of hours wrapping Christmas. gifts for the kids. And so all these gifts had been donated, And so that's it. We were just wrapping presents. And at first you think, you know, why are we here? I mean, obviously great, great cause, right? Great cause, but this is going to be two hours. But let me tell you the amount of fun everybody had. Obviously it's joyful because you're doing a very good thing for people who really, you know, deserve good things to happen around the end of the year. But, you know, just the act of wrapping the presents and whose present was wrapped the best and who was wrapping the most and how creative could you get and you know what were the gifts and the the fact that all of a sudden all these professionals that were sitting on the ground and were like you know passing these stupid little play scissors that you know kids have i don't know it was definitely it was two hours of just having a great time doing a good thing with absolutely no transaction on the back end of it Mike Kostyo (11:52) the Maeve Webster (12:14) Right? I mean, like we weren't supposed to get anything out of it except to just do a good thing. And it was a blast. And I think honestly, for all of us who were there, it drew the whole group together so much more too, right? Than any kind of team building and, you know, intro game or whatever it is you're gonna do. I mean, it just ended up, I think I got to know more of the people in that group faster in two hours than in a lot of other things that I've ended up doing professionally. Mike Kostyo (12:43) Well, that's such a great point that it brought the team together because we asked a survey question last year, which was, what is it that makes a food experience more meaningful to you? And the number one theme that came up over and over was if I ate with friends, if I eat with family members, if I ate with people who are close to me, it was some element of having that human connection in the meal made it more meaningful. it's not necessarily about commodifying this idea of play. It's just how do you set up people at a table to play with each other, to have fun together, to have fun together. How do you set up? Yeah. Oh, God, seriously. How do you, there will know if people listen if they bring this up. Yeah. Maeve Webster (13:17) Hey, look, no judgment. There's an occasion for everything. Keep that in. Keep it in. Mike Kostyo (13:32) But how do you say, I mean, you know, the, the margarita is a great example of that, but you can do so many things how many experiential things can you bring to the table? How many things where you have to get hands on where I remember when I was a kid, there was a, chain called Italianis that my grandmother loved. And it was like, you know, the precursor to kind of all the casual Italian chains that you see that were, it slightly upscale. You know, they brought the olive oil and put the little herbs in it. And for kids, the pizza on the kids menu was a build your own pizza. And they came out and they brought you the pizza peel and it had your little individual pizza there. And then it had all the toppings And so it was myself, my sister, all my cousins. And of course, you immediately, like you said, you get competitive with each other. Why I'm making the best pizza. Maeve Webster (13:56) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mike Kostyo (14:15) And in five minutes, we built pizzas together. Our parents are, happy as clams. they take it into the back. They had the wood burning oven. You see it go into the wood burning oven. It was an incredible experience. And it almost makes me think too, when you're growing up as a kid and you think of the creative play experiences that you have, how many are related to food, whether it's, making mud pies or the I'm playing restaurants and I'm taking your order or things like that. So. I think we have an element of understanding that the food industry can be a source of play. Is there anything that you can do that you bring it out to the table and it just gets people talking and creating and having fun together? They will have a more meaningful, better experience at your restaurant if you do that. Maeve Webster (14:59) So let me tell you, here's a great idea. I think some restaurant needs to buy a ton of easy bake ovens. And that's the dessert at the end, where you bring out an easy bake oven to the table with all the things and people actually get to bake off their own cake and then decorate it. Mike Kostyo (15:05) Mmm. Mmm. Absolutely. Love it. Love it. Well, when you think right hot pot restaurants are going crazy. Korean barbecue restaurants, I remember there was I think there's a few of these. But what I remember was in in Hawaii, I believe, where you make your own pancakes and they bring out all the little squeeze bottles and you make pictures and everything. I love it. The the easy bake oven restaurant can get into that. Maeve Webster (15:19) Alright? Mm-hmm. I'm gonna double down on this. I'm gonna double down on it. Here's a great idea. This is all for free. It's all for free. I wanna know if somebody decides to implement this. Not only the easy bake oven, but what if you had an option where you could allow another table to make the cake for your table and you end up interacting with tables like you basically don't know who you're making it for. Mike Kostyo (15:40) Ha my God. I love, love, love, love that idea. Love it. somebody needs to do this. Absolutely. I think that you would talk about that forever. You would talk about that experience. You would talk about what you got. I think it would force you to be so thoughtful. You're making it for, I hope that's the case, you know, that you're making it for somebody else. I mean, honestly, like how do we even just do this like ourselves at an event I love this idea so much. Maeve Webster (15:59) Would you do that? I mean, how bad would it be? Exactly. Damn right. Mike Kostyo (16:19) Yeah. Yeah. Maeve Webster (16:19) Yeah, I'm sure there are probably some legal issues that you'd need to, because there would be the one table that would ruin it for everybody else. Mike Kostyo (16:22) Yeah. I think that's why everybody's so afraid of things like this because it's that, yeah, the one outlier that messes things up for everybody. But I don't know. Again, figure it out. That's the whole thing. Yes. I mean, you think of amusement parks or cruise ships or places. Maeve Webster (16:29) Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, there is a way to figure out how fun would that be actually. Mike Kostyo (16:46) where you're on that ship for a long time and you need to meet other people what's the venue on the Disney cruise ship where you draw a character and then the character comes to life and then over the course of the meal, it's like a black and white restaurant and it turns into a colorful restaurant. I mean, again, you're creating, you become a Disney animator for the one hour and adults do it too and they get so into it. You see your. fish or whatever you created, you know, on the wall interacting. Like, mean, ⁓ actually making a meal for other people. I love that idea. So yes. You know, we, ⁓ what's our PO box for, for any residual tracks that people want to send it. Yeah, that's all. That's all. And the invitation and invitation to come do it. Maeve Webster (17:17) That'd be amazing. Yeah, yeah. So everyone, you're welcome. We'll know if you ended up watching it. We'll know. Just a thank you note. That's all we need. Just a thank you note. Yes, Mike Kostyo (17:40) Yeah. Love it. Love it. Maeve Webster (17:40) yes, yeah, for sure. Exactly. Mike Kostyo (17:56) Well, I'm so excited to welcome Rebecca Kilbreth, who I am very proud to say is not just one of my favorite people professionally, but also I'm really proud to call you a good friend of mine to the mess hall. So I will send it over to you to just intro yourself. and your background. Rebecca (18:14) Hi, I'm Rebecca Kilbreth. I'm also honored and delighted to be my costiest friend. She's the best. And I see I'm so excited that I lost track of my train of thought. I don't take compliments well as best as me. But I'm editor in chief for Restaurant Development Design Magazine. And I also spearhead a lot of our various initiatives behind the scenes. the Number one thing I do is restaurant development design. And I also have spearheaded one thing that I think we should note about our D &D, which is that we launched a newsletter called The Pulse, which won email newsletter of the year last year from the ASPCI. It was exciting. And we do original research six times a year with our audience. Mike Kostyo (18:48) Yay! Rebecca (18:55) And that's a little bit of an interesting differentiator. I think probably also a little thing we have probably partly inspired by you guys, honestly, because I was like, well, this is interesting. I wish we had some information from our readers that was sort of like what you guys do. So I thought that was fun. And I would never call myself someone who actually understands what she's doing with these surveys, but they're super fun to do. And it's been a really fun way for us to connect with our audience and to learn more about our readers. So that's one of the big things that we do that I think is a little different. And we focus on, you know, obviously, Mike Kostyo (19:12) No, stop Rebecca (19:24) the title self-explanatory restaurant development and design. We publish six times a year and we also have a website and ⁓ webinars and all those things. Mike Kostyo (19:31) And I will say too, the newsletter is fantastic. is not just a self-serving marketing newsletter. It's very informational. That survey data is absolutely fascinating. if you have a chance, yeah, absolutely subscribe to it. Yes, yeah. Well, so just to dive right into it, because this is an area that we often don't get to talk about. We talk so much about developing menu items and developing products. Maeve Webster (19:33) Mm-hmm. Rebecca (19:41) Thank you. Please check it out. RDDmag.com. Maeve Webster (19:46) Yes, yes. Mike Kostyo (19:56) But we don't often get to talk about the spaces where you're going to consume those menu items. I don't know, do you work on kind of the retail side at all? I mean, I know the name of the magazine is Restaurant Design, but there's so much overlap anymore with people adding grab and go and things like that. I mean, how much, I guess, of the retail part of it is wrapped up into what you do. Rebecca (20:18) That's a key trend right now, which is the incorporation of multi-use spaces within the restaurant. So it's something we're covering. That's a funny question because that is something that we have a tricky time with a little bit, is what is within our scope of coverage? So it's a great publication. We ask ourselves that question a lot. And the answer, we try to keep it narrow, partly because it would be impossible to cover everything. So it's one of those things we try to keep somewhat narrow. Mike Kostyo (20:32) Mm-hmm, yeah. Rebecca (20:44) But you can't ignore the fact that retail is a big part of what's happening in restaurants. Eatertainment, I know people sort of have strong feelings about that term, but these multi-purpose spaces are a huge trend right now. And there's something we get pictures for every day. We get pictures too for things like banquet halls and catering. And have to ask yourself, what is it that we sort of cover? Traditionally, we've always covered restaurants that the public can go to. So we haven't done a ton of private spaces. But I do think that what we try to, the ways in which we try to cover those things is how do these other areas like retail, private, et cetera, how does it influence restaurant design and public facing spaces? So that's something that we sort of ask ourselves. We also have tried to be careful about avoiding covering operations too much because that's something that's very easy to talk about because it's very important. You know, to me, the most important thing is how restaurants function, how they work. And that... Mike Kostyo (21:24) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (21:25) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (21:31) Mm-hmm. Rebecca (21:38) partly involves the beauty of them, but also very much involves the functionality and behind the scenes. And so those two things, I try to always keep my eye on that ball, which is if this is affecting that or influencing how people think about that, then it's fair for us to cover it. So to answer that in a very long-winded way, we do sometimes talk about retail and we talk about it in the sense of how it's influencing restaurant design, how it's affecting how people are going to spaces. I mean, we're in the Chicago area. Mike Kostyo (21:52) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah Rebecca (22:05) One place that I enjoy going is the Oakbrook Bougie Mall, the outdoor mall, which is the only mall still in existence really, I think, on Earth maybe. But it's an outdoor, it's so, But it's a largely outdoor space, but one of the things they have that's very unusual, they have the restoration hardware, which has the gigantic restoration hardware building that I find to be one of the funniest places on Earth. It's like, you've never seen so many... Mike Kostyo (22:09) Mmm, it's good. That is so bougie. Yes. Yeah. You Rebecca (22:28) like slices of beige and gray in your life. It's wild. They're like, we hate red. They won't do it. So it's a very, very neutral space. But on the top floor, they have this incredible restaurant with this great space. It's really fun. And then they also have at that same mall, Crate and Barrel, the table at Crate, where they have this very great, I think it's Bill Kim was the chef there that worked that. So they have this great chef. Mike Kostyo (22:29) I Mm-hmm. Rebecca (22:51) And they started with this very tiny menu. And I love nothing more than a bougie sit down with a friend where we drink really overpriced, like single cocktail, like give me a really outrageously priced espresso martini and like a salad. I'm that girl all day long. So I love that and, or, or ramen. So they, anyway, the table at is fantastic. And the first time I went there, I was like, I'd love this. Cause this is, mean, I'd like to live inside somewhere like Crate and Barrel anyway. Like that's my dream. Even though my house is chaos. Like that's the opposite of who I am, but it's. Mike Kostyo (23:20) Yeah, having been to your house, surprises me that you say that. Yeah. ⁓ What you should say really quickly because Rebecca's house, each room is modeled after a different Wes Anderson movie. yeah, yeah, loosely. It's not, it's not cheesy. It's not a Wes Anderson theme park. Yeah. Rebecca (23:20) my dream. Yeah, it's not no, I Well, it's because I love going somewhere else to feel peace. As you can see behind me, it's real chaotic. So I'm just a Maeve Webster (23:23) You There you go. Rebecca (23:36) That's true, actually, little sort of. It's simple colors. Yes, it's not themed. It's not, well, never themed. But it's, Maeve Webster (23:40) you Rebecca (23:44) yeah, so my office that you can't even see the walls of right now is pink and gray because of the Grand Budapest Hotel. So the ceiling is pink and the walls are gray. But, yeah. You stayed in the Life Aquatic Guest Room, yes, the Steve Zizzi Room. That was a little closer to theme because there's a couple art pieces. That's the one room that probably has a theme, I Mike Kostyo (23:44) Yeah. I stayed in the Life Aquatic with Steve Sissou room. Yes. Maeve Webster (23:45) Yet. Mike Kostyo (24:03) I just wanted to ask you from an insider who knows the restaurant. design space so well. What is going on with that? You hear restoration hardware and their kind of design style is so out these days. Millennial gray is out and everything is maximalism. And so from your perspective, what are just kind of the major design trends happening in restaurants? Rebecca (24:25) I think maximum, well, the thing that's out, can tell you that's absolutely out, is definitely the of the millennial grage. And I'm sure this is very clear to anyone who's been inside any sort of restaurant space. The industrial chic was such a moment a few years ago, like 10 years ago, every single. Mike Kostyo (24:37) Mm-hmm. exposed light bulbs and yeah. ⁓ Rebecca (24:42) Yes, the Edison bulbs, Maeve Webster (24:42) Mhm. Rebecca (24:45) metal floors, cement floors, metal chairs, that kind of thing. That's very, very not cool right now. But again, everything cyclical. think... I think nostalgia is a big one. That's been a key driver that was named by our readers in one of our surveys as a key design driver, but it doesn't move. Yes, yeah, it was number one and then followed pretty closely. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my but the number one was maximalism or layered design. Mike Kostyo (25:02) It was like number one, wasn't it? Like, yeah. Mm-mm-mm. Rebecca (25:11) So to me, those are sort of the same thing. As weird as that sounds, ⁓ nostalgia in the restaurant design sense, I think is a little bit different than what people think. think in general, I think we all somewhat understand that nostalgia is huge for the last few years and has been a big driving trend. But the thing that I think is, I don't think it has to be as literal as people sometimes think of it as. So we did a feature about nostalgia as a design driver in the magazine recently. Mike Kostyo (25:14) Hmm. Rebecca (25:41) the interviewees and what we really walked away with is the sense that obviously we live in pretty intense times. Everyone on the internet's mad about everything. There's a lot of high emotion that it's negative emotion if you're online. There's also a lot of ⁓ political division. We all know the score. We've seen the headlines and we've looked at the internet and it's pretty bleak. So I think what it really means is people want comfort. And I think that, when you talk about nostalgia and design, you're talking about having spaces that feel comfortable and whatever kind of that means to you. And it can be interpreted in so many ways. So you've got the idea of obviously the retro. So there is a retro thing. And for me, imagine my surprise when I found out like my youth is now considered retro, so rude of everyone. Maeve Webster (26:24) Thank As the oldest person on this webinar, I'll tell you right now, that hit me a lot earlier and it's only gonna get worse. Rebecca (26:30) It's so horrible. I went to the flea market next to my house. It was like the Illinois vintage flea market and it was all t-shirts from the 1990s. I was like, how dare you? I was so rude. Mike Kostyo (26:41) Michael Jordan t-shirts were going for $100. That's ridiculous. Yeah, I know. Maeve Webster (26:45) Yeah. Rebecca (26:46) It makes me feel mad. Maeve Webster (26:47) Wait until your birth year is now officially antique. No longer vintage, but antique. Yeah. Mike Kostyo (26:51) God! Rebecca (26:51) ⁓ yeah, So yeah, so how dare all of them. I can't take it. ⁓ But anyway, the coziness I think people like I also think people looking for a little more low tech, because obviously, I sort of feel I think technology or people feeling nervous about it. You guys probably say that but more than I could in terms of consumers and how they feel about tech right now. Okay. Mike Kostyo (27:03) Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. That was the beginning of this episode was a discussion Maeve Webster (27:15) Yeah. Mike Kostyo (27:15) about play and creativity and may have made the point that when you see people playing and being creative, it's never about technology. It's getting away from technology. And so, yeah, I think you're absolutely on target from a wider perspective. Maeve Webster (27:24) No. Rebecca (27:26) Yeah, I, yeah, that's exactly what we're seeing. So I think people, what people really want is the kind of retro that is trending weirdly enough is sort of an 80s, 90s aesthetic, which is very funny to me, because that feels kind of dated in a way that doesn't feel fresh, but happened seven minutes ago. So yeah, so I call it the ⁓ Lennox Spice Village aesthetic. Yeah, so it's got that sort of like cozy, small Mike Kostyo (27:48) yeah, uh-huh. Maeve Webster (27:50) ⁓ mmm. Mike Kostyo (27:53) Mmhmm. Rebecca (27:54) colorful, warm, almost kitschy, but not quite like that kind of vibe. It's like you want to live inside the home alone house kind of any sort of whenever we talk about the past in retro, I find that the thing that people really want the past is to be rich in the past. No one wants to be poor in the past. So, you know, when people tell you, I was born in the wrong time. I like, you can wear the dress, wear the fancy Regency dress. No one cares. It's 20, whatever you want. So you just yes. Mike Kostyo (27:58) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah Yeah, sure. ⁓ Yeah. It's an idealized version. Yeah. Rebecca (28:23) You know, I'm not a big, I don't really like it. I'll be honest, I don't love nostalgia in the sense that I always feel like we're sort of lying to ourselves about how good it was. I don't want to be a woman in the workforce in 1985. Are you kidding me? I saw baby boom. That sucks. I'm not doing that. So I don't want to do that. And I don't I don't want to be anywhere where there's not indoor plumbing. Missing with all that. I don't want any of it. So not close. Yeah, no. Yeah. My husband knows better. He did not marry someone who knows how to cook his name. That was not in Mike Kostyo (28:25) the Hmm. ⁓ Yeah. You're not going to be a trad wife anytime soon. ⁓ Rebecca (28:52) not in those cards. But yeah, so. Mike Kostyo (28:54) Well, maybe I have talked about this, but I think sometimes it's also just like a shortcut to talking about what the things that people miss are. I'm sure you've seen online everybody talking about that they miss the Starbucks with the global coffee house. Maeve Webster (29:01) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (29:07) aesthetic over and over and over. I don't know if it's exactly that they missed that very specific look, but it's more that I miss when restaurants looked a little bit cozier and more comfortable. It didn't look like they wanted me in and out in five minutes. And where I sat with a friend and it felt like they had made some artistic choices, whether those artistic choices are even good or not, they were choices as opposed to another blank wall that feels like another nondescript space. Maeve Webster (29:19) Thank you. Mike Kostyo (29:34) And so I think some of it's just consumers or people talking about things that they miss on a deeper level and their shortcut to it is to choose very specific references from their past. Maeve Webster (29:45) Also, think too that it's, you know, back then, whenever that was, That restaurants took chances. Whether it was a good choice or a bad choice, didn't matter. They took a risk to be different. I think that there, and Rebecca, I'd love to hear your opinion of this. There's been a horrible samification of the design in restaurants, like you were saying, the urban chic. Mike Kostyo (29:48) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (30:09) was everywhere, right? We've seen it happen with books, we've seen it happen with fashion, we've seen it happen with social media, that there's just been this flattening of design and nobody's taking a chance anymore and nobody's sticking out. Do you feel like we're at a point where that is beginning to change or no, it's just moving on to a new semification with a different design aesthetic? Mike Kostyo (30:09) Everyone. Rebecca (30:30) I think the answer is it kind of depends on your budget. I think a lot of the reason we had samification, which I wouldn't argue, is that One, know, over time, there's refinement and people develop a series of human beings are just like this, aren't we? We build systems and we create best practices and then we make everything sort of boring and terrible. And then we tear it apart and sort of reinvent it. And I think that part of the problem, especially with like the chain restaurants, it was a real like driving efficiency and operations and design. So they made a lot of choices to make things not very expensive and or to make invite. You you can still make things feel classier if they're streamlined. Right. So you create these very like simple spaces. And there's a nice coherence to that. I actually think that some of those like I was kind of jokingly saying earlier about Crane Barrel, like I want to go sometimes places that feel clean and neat because I'm overly maximalist and my house is too busy. So I feel like it's one of those things that people probably crave on some level, but then you've reached maximum. Mike Kostyo (31:19) Hehehe. Rebecca (31:25) know, capacity for all of that. And it starts to all feel sort of bland. And one of the funniest examples I could give you is speaking specifically of Starbucks. My office for work is in Elmhurst. And I've been to the Elmhurst Starbucks approximately seven million times. I usually go there twice a week when I'm in the office. And ⁓ I walked in there a few weeks ago after I traveled for work. I was gone a couple of weeks and I came back and the entire interior was different. And I was like, what the hell just happened? I've only been gone a week or two. They have specifically, I thought it was really fascinating, they put in all these shelving, like open shelving with a whole bunch of plants. on both ends. like they that's kind of a galley style restaurant on a corner. So there's a wall of windows, which is nice, but now the wall of windows is framed by bookshelves or shut open shelving above the windows and down the sides. And then they sort of come out into the space creating zones. And there's plants on all of them. And they just added that to an existing restaurant. And then they changed out the furniture to make it frankly, a little more, I think a little ⁓ more mid century ish, not quite not not as nostalgic as that, but with those clean lines, but like warmer lines. And it has made a difference in that place in terms of vibe. Now, every time I go in there, a few months ago, every time I went in there, they were pretty empty. Like if you went in for like an afternoon coffee, there'd be nobody there. Suddenly everyone's hanging out there again. And I don't have the numbers to back this up, but I think it just created a warmer vibe. And it's interesting to me that they could make these not structural, pretty simple pretty straightforward changes that they inserted probably within, you know, a couple of days and it changed the feeling. And I think that warmth is what people really want. And in design, the addition of the plants is a biophilia. So like they call it biophilic design where you bring the outdoors inside. And I think just doing that can make a huge difference to feeling warm and to changing it up. And I thought it was really interesting because, you know, that was a pretty bland store and the way in which they sort of cleverly Mike Kostyo (33:00) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (33:00) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (33:07) Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (33:11) Mm-hmm. Rebecca (33:22) executed against this idea was really good, I thought. So I've seen that a lot. also think that in terms of the samification, one thing that I've sort of complained about a few times is in chain restaurants, they'll add a local mural to give it a sense of place. And I think that that worked for a long time. And part of me is like, they're going to have to take it up a notch. Like something about that. You can't Mike Kostyo (33:26) Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah, mhm. Everybody, yeah, was doing it. Rebecca (33:45) Every single store has a local mural and it feels like, again, the same thing. And so you're gonna have to, they're gonna have to find ways to innovate in that way to create more sense of place and to give it a warmer vibe. And I actually don't know. So I think like with the Starbucks rehab, it wasn't a localization effort. It was like a warmification. They needed to it to a cozier place. And I think people are craving cozy. I think that that is what nostalgia is at its heart is craving a sense of a little more comfort. Maeve Webster (33:51) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (34:04) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (34:05) Mm-hmm. Rebecca (34:13) I mean, I always say that you have to have a place that feels as good as your food tastes. If people don't want to be there, it has to feel good. Mike Kostyo (34:20) ⁓ When are there any chains that you think are? Because yeah, you hear all the time from chains that, yes, our margins are so slim, we don't have crazy budgets, we can't add all this stuff. We have to roll it across how many units across the country, we get pushback from franchisees. By the time we roll it out, all the trends have moved on and now our restaurants are old fashioned. And so we do, we play it safe. So are there any chains that you can think of? Maeve Webster (34:23) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (34:48) that are doing a good job and you think their designs are pretty on point right now. Rebecca (34:52) I think a lot of them, I see... design evolution a lot. Some of them, like you said, that is a real challenge trying to roll it out. You know, on a scale trying to roll out sign changes is really, really difficult. I know Jersey Mike's actually before Peter Cancro, the owner, previous owner sold it and kind of changed. He's actually doing international stores now. But he had told me that they were, I did an interview with him and he, they actually paid to renovate the stores that the corporate office to renovate their stores, which is pretty Mike Kostyo (34:59) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mhm. Mmm, mmm, mm-hmm. Rebecca (35:23) unusual, but he felt so strongly that this is what they needed to do in order to be competitive. So I that was kind of an interesting story. But I feel like the real interesting stuff is when people are really loyal to their brand identity. And I think it's okay to have a pretty loyal brand. And if your brand is Mike Kostyo (35:28) Huh. Mm-hmm. Rebecca (35:40) If your brand's adaptable, you can still be local, right? You can still have a cool feeling. We just got in this, we got a Paris Baguette recently up the road and I think their designs are great. They're very open, they're very colorful, they feel very elevated, but they aren't bending over backwards to make sure they have like a Glen Ellyn mural, right? Like I feel like, because they have their own identity, but their identity is really well thought out and they have a really beautiful store. So when I walk in there, that place was really hot Mike Kostyo (35:43) Mm-hmm. Hmm. I think they do a great job. Mm-hmm, yeah. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (36:03) Mhm. Mike Kostyo (36:05) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rebecca (36:10) and very competitive with the local bakery style places. And I think it's because it feels cool to be in there and it's a nice space and you know, it doesn't make you feel like you're in any, even though it's the same as other places, it doesn't feel, it doesn't suffer from the sameification in the same way if I'm making any sense whatsoever. Mike Kostyo (36:10) Mm-hmm. No, yeah, absolutely. Maeve Webster (36:28) Yeah, well, Mike Kostyo (36:28) ⁓ Maeve Webster (36:30) even that drive, well, not drive, but that move to make everything local. I mean, that's just part and parcel of the trend doom loop, right? Where somebody tells you local is on trend, great. So now every single restaurant has to be tied. Whereas if you're Paris Baguette, by simple definition, you are not going to be local to Glenelg. And that is the whole point of being there. So I think it's this whole idea that the trend is the solution and then everybody jumps on the exact same trend that then in turn same-ifies and flattens the whole thing. it to your exactly like you said, be true to your own unique brand identity. That is exactly why you're in doing whatever it is you're doing to begin with and stick with that, make it interesting and take a chance, like take a risk. Rebecca (36:49) you Mike Kostyo (36:50) Yeah. Maeve Webster (37:15) With that. Mike Kostyo (37:16) this speaks also to a lot of the research that we did last year around people losing trust in our industry. And because so much of it is unearned. It's, people know at the end of the day when you slap that mural on the wall that you are not a local chain. They know that, you know, that that was the directive internally. People are aware of that. I think there's a genuineness that is often lost in these conversations. We often think internally that like people don't notice or they do. They absolutely do. And we've lost a lot of trust because of that. Yeah. Rebecca (37:47) Absolutely. also think that we are, we're gonna, I think, and this is just my personal opinion, I don't have the data to back this up, but I do think that there needs to be a movement when you think about what your brand identity is. I think that staying true, we talk to designers a lot and they will tell you that staying true to the brand identity is key and brand drift is often when you start to see lagging sales, things like that are very connected. You know, just one create the other, it's sort of a little bit of a mystery, you know, I'm not entirely sure. Mike Kostyo (37:52) Mm-hmm. Hmm? I'm hearing it. Rebecca (38:15) But I do think because of the way people are interacting with restaurants, we have to think about where the branding starts, how they interact, how do consumers and guests interact with your brand? Where do they start interacting? What does that look like? What does that feel like? And even things like building envelope, like I know, especially with chain restaurants, they're building whole building envelopes. And you can call it kitsch if you want, but the Pizza Hut's of yore, the giant Arby's signs. All of that kind of said the giant golden arches, you those were physical elements that tied those chains to the space that made them iconic that you could see from the road. And I think that building envelope is something that people are in restaurant developers are ignoring. And to some degree, not all of them, but they really need to start thinking about that and spending a little more money there because that is something that people, when they only do drive through, only interact with your brand in that way. You should create an experience at the curb. Mike Kostyo (38:49) Hmm? ⁓ I wanted to ask you about, because did you see the White Castle, the new prototype that they have where it's like the hospitality door? What's your take on that? Do you think it's a good idea? Rebecca (39:10) That's important. yeah, we just ran home. We did a heafing. Wait, I'm sorry, the hospitality. Are we talking about the same thing? I could be talking about the wrong. Mike Kostyo (39:23) maybe. So they have a new prototype that I think it came out a couple of months ago where they're supposed to have this hospitality door. So instead of having somebody just pass you your meal through a window, they actually have to open a door and bring it directly to the car. I think they're copying the Chick-fil-A's and the Seven Brews and all these brands that have the person right there in the parking lot with you. I've seen some of the social media examples. Rebecca (39:42) more personal. Mike Kostyo (39:50) making fun of them where the person actually gets in the car and sits in your lap and takes your order. they're clearly trying to starve for attention these days. So need that human touch. But do you think that's a good idea? You don't have to pass judgment on White Castle here, but just elements like that. Rebecca (39:55) Thank so much. Maeve Webster (40:00) Yeah. Rebecca (40:01) literal. start. So we just ran a big story about the Castle of the Future, which is their prototype. I think they did talk about the door. That's funny, because the door didn't hit me as a, literally didn't hit me, didn't hit me as a big thing, because I think that a lot of the chains do that now. So that didn't strike me as that weird. But I thought that the, they, Mike Kostyo (40:21) Mmm. Mm-mm. Rebecca (40:30) Adopted a lot of technology in their new prototype in a wider way than I think a lot of other chains have been at least quietly they have It's interesting to me that they have adopted a lot of technology that's back of the house because they specifically wanted front of the house Hospitality they want you to feel like people are there and that there's not you know a robot like flipping your burger even though there is So I think that that's interesting and I think that's a good use of technology I think that people do want if you're going into is if you're choosing to go in you probably are looking Mike Kostyo (40:39) Mm-hmm. Yes. Rebecca (40:57) you're someone who cares about interacting versus somebody who's like drop it off at the front door and don't look at me. So, you know, those are again two different experiences, but all experiences. But with I love the White Castle prototype because they had ⁓ a sign that changes from White Castle, it's my favorite, changes from White Castle to Night Castle to capitalize and remind people that come here when you're a little tipsy, we love it. So, or just late at night, you could be a trip worker. Mike Kostyo (41:01) Mm-hmm I love, this is my favorite part of it. Yeah, it's so good. Yeah. Yeah! Rebecca (41:22) But yeah, so I think capitalizing on that piece of their brand identity was very clever and a fun joke and also made it a fun thing that they could share on socials and it got them a lot of like coverage. And it also again, reminded people of who they are and what they do and why they're good at it. So I feel like it really worked on all those levels. I think that kind of stuff is very clever. And I feel like that's a perfect example. mean, yeah, that's that's telling their story, which we do. Mike Kostyo (41:39) Yes, yes, agreed. Mm-hmm. Rebecca (41:49) storytelling a lot too. Mike Kostyo (41:50) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rebecca (41:51) telling your brand story in all the ways I think is an incredibly smart thing to do and a real differentiator, especially in crowded markets like the burger business or the pizza business or Mexican quick service, that kind of stuff. Mike Kostyo (41:58) Mm-hmm. I want to ask you about the storytelling. But before we move on to that, I want to ask you too about onsamification. Are there any trends or just like, you know, things that you see all the time in restaurants that you are so tired of that you are like enough of that? I mean, the one that I feel like I hear all the time is the neon, you know, sign with the, you know, the grass wall that you took the Instagram picture, which I feel like has been pretty dead for years now. So like, what's the new version of that? I guess from your perspective. Yeah. Rebecca (42:33) Interesting. So I wouldn't, before you said that, would have said those two are probably still my top two, because I still get submissions all day with the selfie, me on the Yeah. mean, well, it's also depends on how, you know, it's, it depends on where you are regionally, how many times you've seen that. I mean, it's sort of unfair to put those people, you know, take them to the shed because there's still a lot of places are mom and pop places that are just following trends in order to capitalize. So I think that that's part of it. Mike Kostyo (42:36) Yeah, uh-huh. Really? Yeah? Where you are, sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. True. Mm-hmm. Rebecca (43:01) I would also say the localization element to chains I found very kind of eye-rolling. And when I said that to designers, they were a little surprised. So was just kind of like, it's kind corny at this point. Like you said, we know Paris Vega is not like just in Glen Ellyn. So I think that's part of it. I think also one of the funny things, and this is gonna probably get me in trouble. One of the funny things too is in the fast service, quick service, fast food space. Mike Kostyo (43:04) Mm-hmm. haha Rebecca (43:25) they use these primary colors that are food colors that it always makes me laugh when the designers say, oh, we use a lot of red because like red is ketchup and green is lettuce. And so we're using all these things to reinforce the food colors. And I was just like, I remember the first couple of times I heard that I was like, what, what? Um, so yeah, if you guys clip this, I'm going to be in big trouble. But yeah, so that's, uh, that's the one that always makes me laugh. And I'm just like, do you really think that red makes me think of tomatoes in, when it's in a sign? Mike Kostyo (43:33) Yeah. Yeah Maeve Webster (43:47) You Mm-hmm. Rebecca (43:54) I don't know. I mean, it's, they also do a thing where they take and blow up. This is so mean of me. I'm gonna get in so much trouble. They blow up giant. That's right. Mike Kostyo (43:59) This is the mess hall. This is messy conversations. Maeve Webster (44:04) That's right, there's a whole reason we do this. Mike Kostyo (44:05) Yeah, exactly. Rebecca (44:07) When they blow up giant photos of the food they're serving, because that reinforces the idea that they're serving like, look, we took there's a giant tomato and we have tomatoes on our sandwiches. just like, okay. I mean, you definitely do. Maeve Webster (44:17) To a certain degree, it's like if you have to reinforce that in the restaurant, there's a huge problem. If you're trying to build trust by convincing me you're using tomatoes, that's alarming. Rebecca (44:27) I think the one time I've seen that that I thought was so smart, think it, and I'm gonna forget now, but I think it was a Subway, one of their prototypes came out. They actually did a thing where the refrigerator with the produce was visible. So you could see the tomatoes, you could see the lettuce, and it was set up like they had like baskets or whatever. But so they actually stored their vegetables that you could see to reinforce the idea that you're getting fresh vegetables. So because a lot of consumers, Mike Kostyo (44:39) ⁓ great. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (44:42) sure. Yeah. Mike Kostyo (44:53) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rebecca (44:55) seemingly do not understand that, I don't know, my boss Joe had a real funny joke for a while where he's like, he's like, farm to table is the funniest phrase. Because where do people think tomatoes come from otherwise? Like, what are they talking about? Like, literally, what does that mean? And he's like, it's as if people have decided that if you buy it at the grocery store, it didn't ever see a farm. He's like, it's like people so are so disconnected from the food sources that they don't even understand. So, I thought that's Mike Kostyo (45:03) Yes. ⁓ I mean, that's so much of the research that we did where, you I just presented this yesterday on a webinar where what is it? It's eight to 10 % of people think that apples are ultra processed. I think that eggs are ultra processed. Like, I mean, it's that stat that 42 % of people don't think Lays potato chips are made from potatoes. There is a real skepticism around our industry and the foods that we're putting out there. Rebecca (45:37) You Maeve Webster (45:43) I mean, a majority of Gen Z don't think potatoes are natural products. Potatoes, they are produce. Yeah. Mike Kostyo (45:47) Natural product. Rebecca (45:48) Stop it. majority? You guys, what is wrong with us? We are losing our minds. Mike Kostyo (45:54) That's the thing. Exactly. Exactly. Then you do, you want to do a follow-up. Where do you think the potato factory is? What does it look like? Yeah. I think, yes. Rebecca (46:00) I Maeve Webster (46:01) And where did you hear that? Who told you? Rebecca (46:02) Honestly, I cannot believe you guys haven't done a deep dive follow-up. That's the study I want to hear. I want to know exactly what they think. Where did that come Maeve Webster (46:11) Thank Rebecca (46:11) from? Is it clay? Like, what's going on? Mike Kostyo (46:12) Yeah, right. We do want to do a follow-up because I think some of it is the GMO conversation around the produce options. They think that we're in a lab somewhere injecting things into petri dishes and that's how we're making things. ⁓ Maeve Webster (46:29) I think it's also tied to certain products like potatoes being so closely tied to French fries and potato chips, which are ultra processed to one degree or another, right? And so now they've been, it's guilt by association. Obviously, they're nothing more than those products, which is an interesting psychological issue. Mike Kostyo (46:34) Yeah. Ha ha ha ha. Rebecca (46:47) Yeah, strange. Mike Kostyo (46:49) Okay, so I did want to ask you about storytelling when it comes to restaurants. Because I think this is something that people don't necessarily think about that when you're designing a restaurant that there's a story that you're trying to tell. It's more subconscious when I walk in, like, you know, it's trying to reinforce an idea about what this place is. So from like the the development, you know, side of it, what does that process look like? Like, is the chef very involved? Like, I mean, do you have any examples of like a really good restaurant that showcases their story in a way that maybe we would never think about it, but like subconsciously it's like, yeah, that is the story. I do get where you came from when you were designing this. Rebecca (47:25) For me, think storytelling is an interesting part. We talk about it a lot in our D &D. And designers talk about it a lot. People who are developing restaurants definitely talk about it a lot. And it took me a while to of wrap my head around what exactly they mean. Because I was like, oh, you mean like a theme? Like you have a theme, you know? And... Mike Kostyo (47:39) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, we're Wild West. Yeah. Rebecca (47:43) Yes, and right. And so I mean, the only thing I could think of was and this is a silly thing, but 75 years ago, when I was a waitress at a mall in the Detroit area, I worked at the Dick Clark's American Bandstand. I was like, that's a story, right? That's that's what you mean. That's a themed restaurant. And they were like, her horrified. And I was like, and they were like, well, kind of. And I was like, And then Johnny Rockets was right across from Dick Clark's. It was like the boomer corner. So Mike Kostyo (47:55) Mm-hmm. You guys are really competing with each other. Rebecca (48:09) Yeah, it was. mean, we were a full service, but still, it was fancy. I was thinking about that. And one of the things that I learned over time at my job is from a design perspective, designers in particular see a very big difference between theme and storytelling. Storytelling is more immersive. Theme can fall into kitsch, which again, I don't see a problem with that at all. But I could see why they do because you don't want everything to be kitschy. But from a story teller, Mike Kostyo (48:28) No, no, no, Rebecca (48:34) storytelling perspective, can kind of take on a lot of forms. So a good example, I thought, was Michael Jordan here in the Chicago area had some restaurants. So they had the Michael Jordan steak houses and they were themed, I guess, around Michael Jordan. But in order to not fall into kitsch, they get all these interesting ways in which they elevated the storytelling of his career and of his background and why that was important and why there was a restaurant effectively. So they used his identity as a cornerstone to build the concept and the aesthetic of the restaurant. I thought that that was an interesting version, but then over time I noticed that designers were literally coming up with fictional characters around which to build a whole restaurant. So this can be done in multiple ways. One, it's interesting, I've seen a couple. There's one in North Carolina, there's an entertainment place that Jaguar Bolera we featured, which has this very funny, yeah, isn't that funny? Mike Kostyo (49:11) No. What a name. Rebecca (49:26) And they, I think it's fam design came up with this idea of there's a woman and she's kind of retro, kind of from the 50s, but not of the 50s. Like if that makes sense. So she has a specific retro aesthetic and they came up with an entire personality. And when you come to that restaurant, you're coming to her house. So you're her guest and the things in that home reflect the things she loves and values. So when you walk in, you've got a tortoise shell mirror. Mike Kostyo (49:36) Mm-hmm. Mmm. Rebecca (49:53) above the hostess stand and the hostess stand feels like the entryway to a house. then within the entryway they had had embedded in it her brooch collection. So they had all these vintage brooches backlit. So it added a little sparkle, it added a personality. Now, meanwhile, nowhere do they explain to you that you're at this woman's house. You're just in this what is effectively an immersive experience because they have thought out every detail as if you were. So like even the cups. you know, the cute little retro bowls they're serving in, whatever it is, it's all on the idea of this woman and her aesthetic that they developed and developed an entire brand book around. So I think it's interesting that storytelling can be either a person that you made up or a real person. It could be the chef and their story. A lot of chef driven restaurants have the chef's story expressed within the space and in very subtle and explicit ways. It kind of depends. Mike Kostyo (50:41) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Rebecca (50:42) And so the fun thing about storytelling and restaurant design is that you can be in a space and not even really understand that there is a story, but it feels incredibly cohesive. And I'm not going to remember the name of the restaurant, but I was in San Diego for a work event a couple of years ago. And I sat down with my friend. spent the weekend there kind of dining around and checking it out beforehand. And I sat down and the place was so cool and I'm going to kick myself for not being able to remember it. But I looked around and there was this giant octopus hanging over the bar. Mike Kostyo (51:05) you Rebecca (51:10) there was this beautiful art install. then there are all these strange mermaid-like creatures on the ceiling, and there are a bunch of luggage. And I realized when I'm sitting there that the actual restaurant is a sunken ship, and you're at the bottom of the ocean at this seafood restaurant, and they're serving cocktails in these glasses that have shaped like fish. And it was not kitschy. It was cool. It was really cool, and I was like, we're in a shipwreck. Mike Kostyo (51:23) hmm hmm Hahaha Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (51:34) Mm-hmm. Rebecca (51:37) And my friend was like, what? And I'm like, look around. I'm like, look at all the design details here. And I know the designer was, I think, Bazel Studio in San Diego. They did some incredible stuff. So they're really doing next level work with this storytelling and immersive storytelling. And I think that kind of stuff is so fun and so interesting. And to me, that is a really beautiful expression of their brand. There's a seafood restaurant, and they came up with this whole concept to wrap around it. that makes it really immersive. So I just thought that was fantastic. And then on top of it, there was a seagull that kept coming into the restaurant to try to steal food. And I was like, this is so perfect. I was like, he gets it. We all get it. Yeah. Mike Kostyo (52:09) He feels at home. He's like, ⁓ I love that. I love those exams. Well, it reminds me of a restaurant here in Chicago called Tanta, which is a Peruvian restaurant. And they have a mural, which is made of Peruvian candies. And so actually our IT person ⁓ at my previous role was Peruvian and he knew the chef there and they were bringing back pounds and pounds of candy every single time they would go to Peru and then they would buy and he'd be like, I need more pink or I need more orange or whatever it is. And slowly over like one or two years, they had enough candy to make this mural on the wall. And it hearkens back to the chef's childhood and his sense of playfulness. when you look at it, you wouldn't even know that it's candy unless you like it right up close to it. So to your point, it's not kitschy or in your face or anything like that. It's just an element of showcasing that chef's ethos and background and history and childhood in a way that tells the story of what that restaurant is. So I love that. Rebecca (53:07) Yeah, I love that. I think Maeve Webster (53:08) Well, it's being so committed to the idea of what you're designing. I mean, it's just like an acting where if you're in a play or a movie, it's usually only over the course of a short period of time. But your pre-work is to find out who that person is, what their background, what their childhood was like. And it may never, ever come up in whatever it is you're doing. But you understand it so well, right? That it's too bad more. Rebecca (53:08) it's so cool. Sorry, go ahead. Mike Kostyo (53:13) Mm-hmm Hahaha Maeve Webster (53:34) more companies, more brands, more operators don't go through that kind of an exercise so that everybody is so fully committed to what that brand is about that every decision they make is grounded in that understanding of that identity. Mike Kostyo (53:47) Yeah. Rebecca (53:47) Yeah, when it comes to chain restaurants, that's one of, think, the most interesting things that we cover with, we do like a chain profile of reissue and you can, people who've done that homework love to talk about it and explain it and give you the full background on how they did it and who they talked to and how they figured out, you know, and how they refine their brand. think that that's always a really fascinating part of those stories. Mike Kostyo (53:59) I'm sure, yeah. How much do you talk about the menu and how the design of the space impacts the menu or vice versa? Rebecca (54:11) So that's something too that early on when I started this job, I... didn't understand how that stuff worked, I don't think. so I also the company I work for also publishes food, service, equipment and supplies, which focuses very much on the back of the house. And RD &D focuses more on the front of the house, but tries to look at everything sort of holistically. And, you know, I think that one of the earliest things I really came to understand was you have to have some sense of what the menu is most of the time in order to understand what to design. And I mean, it's not just because you have to order your like, you know, Mexican placemats and or your, you know, tacky furniture or whatever it is you're doing for your Mike Kostyo (54:19) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm You Rebecca (54:45) you know, a restaurant, your theme. But it's because obviously when it comes to efficiency and creating a space that works, you have to know what you're doing. So, you know, obviously there's a lot of work on the back of the house in terms of flexibility, especially if you're, you know, you don't entirely know entirely what's going to work and what's not going to work when you're opening. But by and large, you have to have some sense of what you expect in terms in terms of what to make and the volume. Maeve Webster (54:54) Mm-hmm. Rebecca (55:11) Of course, when it comes to the development end of restaurants, sometimes you're a real estate developer and you want a restaurant there. And so you put in the basics and you kind of have to live with what their choices were. But I do think that in terms of Mike Kostyo (55:21) Mhm. Rebecca (55:25) restaurants function in forms form at every point. having a functional space is the most important aspect of restaurants. And even when I waited tables, I sort of understood that. Like I remember actually, the interview, this is weird that I remember the interview for Dick Clark's American Bandstand. But I do remember that the manager then asked me what was the most important thing and he had a list like a hierarchy and I was like, you need to keep those dishes clean. Mike Kostyo (55:28) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmph. you Mm-hmm. Rebecca (55:50) Because he was giving and he was like what I was like you need to make sure you have somebody who's make it who see who seats people appropriately who keeps the dishes clean like the functions work if you had we're in a mall and like people are gonna come in here but if this doesn't if the functionally doesn't work I'm not gonna make any money they're never coming back so they may you know unless it was like a really unusual like amazing space that they had to show their friends which again it was the Clark and records like there was it was fine Mike Kostyo (56:00) Okay. Mm-hmm. Hehehehehe ⁓ Maeve Webster (56:16) Thank Rebecca (56:17) But I'm not saying anything bad about it. were perfectly nice people. But it wasn't one of those destination places. know what I mean? If you're going to go to Benihana, you might go back to Benihana for the experience, even if it was off one time. You know what I mean? But if the Clark's American Bandstand serves you a mediocre burger and they don't have clean glassware, you're just like, I'm not going to this place is chaotic. I'm not doing that. for me, on every level, it's always been functional aspects have to work first. Mike Kostyo (56:22) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Rebecca (56:43) the function of it is you have to know what the menu is. A lot of our finer dining restaurants that we cover are chef driven. They have a vision, they have feelings, have something they wanna share in terms of the vision for their menu and that always will end up defining the whole space. And often the entire storytelling will come off of that space, whether it's the chef's story or the story of their food, like you said with the Peruvian example, there are so many beautiful examples of restaurants all over Chicago of them. Mike Kostyo (56:45) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. you Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rebecca (57:09) know, expressing their story in these very genuine ways that I find very moving, frankly. I think those are really cool stories because they're so personal. Mike Kostyo (57:17) Absolutely. Well, no, I asked one last question because I want to make sure that we get to the five questions. So I was on your podcast or a webinar that you did a few months ago talking about the future of the industry and just future thinking. And so I wanted to ask you from your perspective, where do you think the crystal ball is leading us when it comes to restaurant design? Maeve Webster (57:17) Mm-hmm. Rebecca (57:19) Okay. limit. You know, I am not a good futurist like you are, because I'm an extremely literal person. I'm extremely literal and insanely pragmatic in some ways, while also trying to keep as much whimsy into it as I can. But ⁓ I do think, I think, you we have to look at what people want from restaurants. And I think that it's dividing between two things. And we used to call it internally at my company. Mike Kostyo (57:40) I mean, it's not. It's. I think that's a perfect person to think about the future. Rebecca (58:05) you know, the convenience versus experience divide, is especially right now, prices are really high. If you go out, you really want to be treated well and you want the food to be better than what you could make at home for the same price. So that's something that's really important. So when I think about that, at least in the short term, I think people are going to prioritize spending on, you know, good, good overall experiences, which means you have to have everything. It has to be good food. It has to be a good vibe. It has to work. But the, Maeve Webster (58:15) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (58:31) Mm-hmm. Rebecca (58:32) The thing that I think will also be driving the future is the fact that we do have more of a convenience driven culture and young people are frankly, I've already said they're weird. They want to pay top dollar for t-shirts from the 1990s. I don't understand it. I don't pretend to understand it. But like my niece and nephew love to go to like the convenience store and pick up things on the go. They're way less comfortable being in these like more formal spaces than I think I was. I think I was more used to going to casual dining than they are. So we, think that the restaurant, the future, the people who are going to win are the people who are going to understand how to create the service model that people want. And so it's sort of, everyone wants food when they want it in the format they want it. And so as much as I think customization and personalization is going to be huge. And I'm sure that there'll be some AI customer service drivers in that regard that I don't understand and I'm not qualified to speak on. But you know, you've got people who are Mike Kostyo (59:07) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank Rebecca (59:25) are doing very high tech things now, especially at the high scale, high volume chain level that will probably set the tone for a while. But my real guess is that innovation comes from places we don't expect. I do love the tech world in terms of understanding it and keeping up with it. And I laugh at people like Mark Zuckerberg or the tech bros who hit the jackpot the first time, who believe that they will be able to do it again. Mike Kostyo (59:47) Everything that they, yeah, they touch gold. ⁓ Rebecca (59:53) They think everything and we really just buy other people's ideas. But so I think that the key is innovation is going to be coming from smaller places that we probably haven't really identified yet. That's just my instinct. I think that the thing that will be really interesting and special will be to see how younger people solve the problems that they see that we don't. And I think that's something that I very specifically can't see because as I've repeatedly and unfortunately said, I'm getting quite old. Mike Kostyo (1:00:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We're all grappling with these issues. If we all had the perfect crystal ball, we'd all be millionaires. And so, yeah, we're still trying to figure it out. Yeah. Maeve Webster (1:00:26) Mm-hmm. Rebecca (1:00:27) I do think that we're going to see, like in general, technology was very slow to be adopted in restaurants because again, it's a high touch, high service, personalized thing. And I think that ⁓ now we're starting to really see a tech revolution in restaurants and in the back of the house that we had sort of been thinking we'd see for the last 10, 15 years, ever since I started at the company I'm at now, 2013, we've been talking about it. Mike Kostyo (1:00:37) Mm-hmm. Rebecca (1:00:53) We're actually really actually starting to see robots in restaurants now, which is something that is, I frankly thought it might be too expensive to do, you ⁓ know. Mike Kostyo (1:00:56) Finally, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Okay, so we have five minutes left, and so we have five questions for you. One question per minute. Rebecca (1:01:04) Okay. Mike Kostyo (1:01:07) And we could do the entire episode because I feel like you would have great opinions about all of these. But so the one I already asked you kind of generally, but this is specifically your hospitality or your food, your pet peeve when it comes to hospitality or food in general. ⁓ Rebecca (1:01:12) I have so many things I'll try to fit. Well, okay, I actually have a big pet peeve about hospitality and it's not related to like, it's not really related to design at all. It's the hostess stand. One, it's rude to call it the hostess But usually at most restaurants, I have a running joke with my husband that everyone at the host stand has never been to a restaurant before, doesn't know how they work and absolutely has no idea what's happening past the host stand. Mike Kostyo (1:01:34) Mm-hmm. ⁓ huh. Rebecca (1:01:45) And when I was a waitress, that was also my big pet peeve. that is definitely I can't tell you how many times I have been in like a little town around the suburbs of Chicago. It's a Saturday at five o'clock. We need to eat. We're grumpy. We're hungry. We're ready. And I walk into a restaurant and the host, it tells me that they're booked solid and when the restaurant is empty and I'm like, it is 445. What are we talking about? I walk out, I open my phone and I make a reservation and I walk back in and I am seated. Mike Kostyo (1:01:48) haha Mm-hmm. Yes. Rebecca (1:02:13) and is insane. I don't know what's happening. creates a terrible introductory experience to the restaurant. The person there is usually the person's least, I'm going to go off. I got to stop. I'll stop. They're the least informed person and you put them as the first point of contact. Yes, it's insane. Mike Kostyo (1:02:23) ⁓ The very first touch point. No. I don't know why I commented on it. I just got into it with somebody online about the host. The chef Jeremiah Tower had this newsletter and years ago he said, I specifically told my host. make sure whatever the first thing that you say is, is just welcoming in some capacity. He's like, every time you go into a restaurant, the very first thing they do is they bark at you. Do you have a reservation? Do you have a reservation? And it immediately is just not very welcoming. If you don't have a reservation, you're like, do I need one? Like you said, the restaurant's empty, but apparently I need one. Just welcome them in. Yeah, mean, the number of times you walk in and you have a bad experience right off the bat is so disappointing. ⁓ Rebecca (1:03:04) wild. Maeve Webster (1:03:05) What was the restaurant like we had that reservation with Sabina at and I got there first. had made a reservation which we didn't need because the place was literally empty. Three people, right, for lunch. We made a reservation, right, I get in there 15 minutes before a reservation. There were two tables out of 50 are actually have people there. And literally the woman at the host stand said, I'm sorry, I can't see you before your reservation. And she made me go to the bar. Mike Kostyo (1:03:08) ⁓ yeah! Here in Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca (1:03:31) You Maeve Webster (1:03:32) and cool my heels, which is fine. I got a drink, but cool my heels at the bar. And I'm looking around like, what is happening? You think the waiter would have been like, please, lower they're there. Like, yeah, I know, ridiculous. Mike Kostyo (1:03:42) Yes. I won't say the name because we shouldn't call him up, but it's a massive, massive French restaurant. It's a New York restaurant that had opened in Chicago. They had only been open like a month or two. So most people didn't even know about them. Like you said, it was early. They have two stories. It's a two-story restaurant. All these tables that are, ⁓ yes. Yeah, you know. Maeve Webster (1:03:49) No, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this is enormous. Rebecca (1:04:06) I know who you're talking about. Maeve Webster (1:04:08) Thank Mike Kostyo (1:04:08) Okay, what is something that you've changed your mind about? This can be food industry related or beyond. Rebecca (1:04:13) Aliens. Mike Kostyo (1:04:14) Mm hmm. I do. I know this about you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca (1:04:16) Super natural. Yes. Yes, I believed back in the day I love the X-Files. I didn't believe for very long time and then I did a bunch of reading and I was like something's going on out there. Even the government says so. Which means even if aliens are on the table, everything's on the table, it's been a real ontological shock for me. Mike Kostyo (1:04:23) ⁓ You'll be interested. There's going to be aliens in my LinkedIn Friday 5 tomorrow. What is one book, movie, TV show, any piece of media that you would recommend? Maeve Webster (1:04:40) Sneak peek. Rebecca (1:04:46) I'm going to make the weirdest recommendation in the sense that I, weird for me. No, because it's weird for me. think that this is very norm core in general, but if you would tell me that I genuinely loved and it had me by the throat, a epic Western, I'd be like, no, that's impossible. I listened to Larry McMurtry's Lonesome Dove last month as an audio book, it is 40 hours long. Mike Kostyo (1:04:48) We would expect nothing more from you. Yeah Maeve Webster (1:04:52) Yeah Mike Kostyo (1:05:06) ⁓ Uh huh. Uh huh. Rebecca (1:05:11) I literally didn't answer my phone. I was like, I'm like, no, super busy, gotta do this. And it would be just listening to this audio book narrated by Will Patton. There's two different narrations, pick the Will Patton one. If you told me that I would care about aging Texas Rangers and their internal emotional lives in a third person point of view, like 900 page Western, I would have told you, Abs, that's insane. I'm sure it's lovely, but it's not for me. It me by the throat, obsessed. But when it ended, I almost started it over. Mike Kostyo (1:05:15) haha Mmmmm. ⁓ Sure. I got my dad because it was trending there for a while. Everybody was like, it's like one of the top favorite books and I need to read it. I got it from my dad for Christmas and he devoured it. He read the whole thing in record time. ⁓ Rebecca (1:05:43) Yeah, and I Maeve Webster (1:05:46) So good, such a great book. Rebecca (1:05:48) It's so good. I would not have done... Listen, the audiobook is... I don't know if I would have enjoyed it as much if I had to do the internal... all the voices myself. A third person narration with... It's crazy. It's crazy how much I loved it. I was shocked. Mike Kostyo (1:05:57) ⁓ I have to listen or read, read less of one or the other. And a question for you from our last guest who is Chef Anna Chili from CalSec. And what is the last food trend that you got really into or excited about? And I guess for you could be kind of any trend. Rebecca (1:06:17) Well, I feel like it sort of depends. um, I- I don't know if I get into foodie trends as much. I don't cover it as closely, but I will say like during the pandemic, I got really into super bougie takeout and I was like, my God, we could take a linear to our house. Like that's amazing. So I got into that for a minute. And then just personally, my, went through like a real like when cutesy cakes were trending, I was super into baking cakes and making them more and more elaborate and more and more ridiculous. And I don't have very good decorating skills, but I could budget just good enough to impress like my coworkers. They'd be like, I can't believe you should open a bakery. And I'm like, yeah. Mike Kostyo (1:06:24) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Hahaha. they Rebecca (1:06:50) So, I'm, but I also, the key to crafts Mike Kostyo (1:06:50) were really impressive. No. Yeah. Rebecca (1:06:54) is understanding what you can actually do and be good at. And then you can be like, look at what I did when really anyone who knows how to actually do it would be like, beginning. Yes. Mike Kostyo (1:06:58) Yeah, yes, yeah. At the beginning of this episode, I mentioned the miniature show a little bit. And I will say, Rebecca took a bunch of classes as part of that show and now she's an expert. Yes, yeah. And then, so the flip is, what is the question that you would ask our next guest? Rebecca (1:07:08) yes. That's right. I'm going to have you over and I'm going teach you everything that I learned. Maeve Webster (1:07:17) Hmm. Rebecca (1:07:24) actually it's related to the miniature show, sort of, which is what I really love to know about people is what do they, what weird little thing is a passion project for them or a passion of interest. So anytime I can ask someone outside of like what their work hobby is and that kind of thing, I want to know like, what are you like, what's your for you page look like? What are you actually obsessed with? Maybe we wouldn't know. That's what I'm real nosy. So I love to know what people, if I could look at everyone's for you pages on social media, I'd love it. Mike Kostyo (1:07:26) ⁓ okay. Mm-hmm. Yes. yes. ⁓ We know who the next guest is and I will be very interested to hear what she says. I just change it so much. Rebecca (1:07:55) Okay, because mine obviously is full of miniatures right now. And then if you're it, I do I tend to cycle through and then behind behind me and if you can see on the little clip, the I have a lot of you master reels. That's sort of one of my ongoing path. Yeah. Mike Kostyo (1:08:08) To say the least, a lot is Maeve Webster (1:08:09) No. Mike Kostyo (1:08:11) the premier Viewmaster collection in the US, if not the world. ⁓ It is so impressive. ⁓ Rebecca (1:08:16) No, no, not even close, but it's it's definitely it's impressive. This is another thing where like if you're just impressive enough, people are like the best in the world. I'm like, of course. Mike Kostyo (1:08:26) Now we're at time, but it also when you showed us some of the old ones and the artistry and the artists, you knew the names of them and it did take you into that world. I think a lot of us just think of the five Viewmaster reels that we had of Disney and Mickey Mouse growing up. The ones that are like travel and take you to parts of the world. It really is, for a second you're in this other space and I don't know, they're amazing. Rebecca (1:08:50) That's what I love about it. You're immersed in, well, and we just talked about storytelling and immersion. That's my favorite. You get, because it's 3D and because it's sort of intimate and you're putting it to your eyes, there is a certain interesting thing to it. like, you know, like I have like, view master reels from like Afghanistan in the 1940s and 50s. Things like that are just such rare little glimpses into the world that I just love that stuff. I love a glimpse into a different world, whether it's a miniature world, a 3D world, anything like that. I love it. Mike Kostyo (1:08:54) Yeah. Yes! Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Love that. Okay. And then if people want to get a hold of you, if they want to follow you, any social media feeds, websites, newsletters. Rebecca (1:09:26) Oh, well, obviously, rddmag.com is our, please feel free to subscribe to our magazine and to our newsletter. Thank you for letting me push that. My Instagram for work is rddeditorbex, B-E-X. so, you know, can, I, anytime I go to a cool restaurant, I definitely try to share that. So yeah, please feel free to follow me there. Sometimes you even see miniatures on that handle. Mike Kostyo (1:09:47) Yes, follow her right now because she's got all of her recent stuff. Thank you so much. Thank you, Rebecca. This was a great conversation. We'll have to have you back. ⁓ Yes, we'll have you back and then we'll have, because I can think of another 10 questions that we didn't get to that I would love to ask you. Thank you so much. Thanks. Rebecca (1:09:51) Oh, thank you. This is so fun. You guys are the best. I love you both. I appreciate everything you guys bring to the industry. It was great. Thank you. Maeve Webster (1:09:52) Thank you. No, this is amazing. Rebecca (1:10:03) Absolutely anytime. Love it. Of course. You guys have a great day. Thank you. Maeve Webster (1:10:05) Thank you. You too.