Best of 2024 Part 1: Lewi Brown, Jess Sepel, Tim Duggan, Deanne Stewart and Amanda Price

Welcome to the mentor. I'm Marke Boris.

I remember sitting at the bar going back to the hotel, sitting at the bar with Sean Johnson and his partner, and at a phone call come through from my sister and her been a ragby league founder, had thought she wanted to speak about the game, and I left it. I didn't answer it because I wasn't really in the mood to speak about rugby league at the time, and it was the end of the year and it's enjoying having a sparkling water and a red wine at the bar. And then she ran me back straight away and I

What's what's happened? She's like his dad, and I was like, well, what's happened?

And she's like, he's taken his own life, his dad, he's committed suicide.

And your biological father, yeah, my.

Biological father, who I hadn't spoken until spoken to since I was twenty one I was now thirty at the time, sat there and just broke down in tears, like I don't I didn't even know what I was.

It was just like a shock for start.

Yeah, well you know my dad, My dad was a good guy, but it was just a useless father. And you know, I kind of carried this chip on my shoulder as a young kid, like like you kind of mumba lamas, but you kind of fucked my childhood. Now you know, you're throwing the spanner in the works, and you're fucking fuck with me in my adulthood as well,

Of helping me out, and and I hopped on.

They were the logistics out so I could get back to Christich for the funeral, And so I got back to christ Church. Through this whole next two days of traveling from London to christ Church, so much thoughts were going through my head. I was about to go back home to a family that's part of me that I haven't seen for nearly twenty odd years. And that was a bit of a mind a mine, mind.

Fuck within itself.

And so anyway, I get myself, me and my sister get at ourself prepared for.

The funeral and walking to the funeral, and.

Here's my half brother who's basically four or five years younger than me, looks like my twin, and I haven't seen him since I'm seven. So that's my first shock. See obviously, see my dad, and you know, see my aunties who I haven't seen since I was a young kid. And I'm basically four with a room full of strangers. But there's this part, there's there's this still part of

Their own lives.

Wow, and on your dad's side.

On my dad's side.

Yeah, And the only thing that we share in common is the same middle name, and that's Earl. And as a young kid, I used to hate that middle name.

All of you had the same middle name, great grandfather, grandfather, dad, and you and.

Me and I found that out during that day. And as a kid, the middle name. I don't know whether it was just to do with the association with my dad because I thought he was useless.

As a kid.

Like when I was a kid, I hated the middle name. I felt like it gave me bad energy. And whenever someone would ask me, what's your middle name, I would say I don't have one. I'd always go like, I don't have one. And basically that was the turning point in my life. I continue to play rugby league for the next two years, but I felt like my job when I felt my dream was starting to turn into a job. And I believe when you when your dream starts to turn into a job, it's.

Time to walk away.

That's that's the sport, that's life, that's the universe tapping on your shoulder saying hey, like you need to go find something else and.

Tap out, tap out.

And you know, when I was a kid, when I'd hang out with my dad, he was real stylish kind of dude, had a great great the way he dressed, did great dress sense. He you know, wore Levi as with the Chuck Taylor's had the leather jacket, the Harley Davison, whereas all my mate's friends they would wear the track the footy tracksuits and stuff like that. So I used to be quite embarrassed by the way my dad dressed, but he was quite hip. So I guess that's where it sort of came into the.

Other days, the dreams with the belt exactly.

Yeah, exactly exactly, tucked it off the polo, you know that look exactly exactly. And so I'd sort of come to this point in my life where I was about to leave Manly. I've been offered a three year deal to go to Purpen Youong, to play the cat Lands over in the south of France.

I was meant to leave on the Friday. On the Wednesday, I.

Decided I'd retire. I just felt like I couldn't take over this because I had two years to kind of digest what had gone on, and my form had kind of fallen off the back to the wards, the back end of the year, my back into the career, so I knew it was just time to let go. What year we're doing man twenty seventeen eighteen, so towards the back end of then, and I thought to myself like, listen, there's a great opportunity to go to France and just kind of finish off your career as a working holidays.

I think SKD was there, Yeah, he was a few.

Of the boys there, piers, he would have been there filling up.

So I think there's a few.

Kind of boys there.

But deep down inside me, there was just something that was holding me back and I felt like taking that with.

Me the suicide.

Over there to a non speaking English country, trying to get therapy. And then also outside of RGULA League, my hobby was fashion and love sneakers, love clothing, and I saw it. I saw a niche kind of movement in the market where you know, I've lived one dream and once you've lived your dream and you've broken through that like dream atmosphere and you kind of I don't know what it is, but you feel like you can do anything. If you really want to do something, you'll go and

But what was it was going to be?

Like, Like, I get the brand, I understand with the name camera, but what was your like what skews were you going to be running with?

What do you well?

I basically, I basically the reason I came to clothing is because that was my passion.

The name. I remember.

I was up on College Street in Sydney, just by High Park, and I pulled over the side of the road and I was like, I'm going to start this thing called Earl's Collection because basically I didn't have a relationship with my dad, you know, through my adulthood, and I always thought i'd have a I would have an adult conversation with him and let bygones be bygones, build a bridge and we can both move on and just live life, you know what I mean, and find out

So reached out to.

A mate who put me in touch with a production company in China, and you know, within six months, I'd launched a forteen piece collection and I was on my journey to start with El's.

Collection, to take me through a good forwarding piece collection. So what are we talking about?

These?

You know strides?

We started with teas teas, these basketball shorts which became a craze.

And can you describe those?

So basketball short?

I know what a basket that you're.

So basically we had these they called the Earl short, basically just a nice premium bit of polyesamesh with Earl's kind of applicate across the front and would change the colors out. And it got to the point mark where you know, like we're doing like twelve hundred peers in three minutes. I put them up online and they just disappear.

And how did everyone know about it?

Well, just like I guess the first fan, my first customer base and the brand Awinness I got was that rugby league fan. So basically, at the time, the people that followed me through rugby League were going to come on.

This journey with me with where they're following you.

Although followed me from New Zealand.

That's I don't know what what platform Facebook.

Instagram, Facebook, you know, Twitter, stuff like that, and then we had no marketing or anything. I knew nothing. I absolutely knew nothing. I knew nothing about clothing. All I knew was I had a good I felt like I had a good eye, and I was going to teach myself how to use Photoshop illustrator and learned to design a fourteen piece collection and put it together shoot it. I shot my first shoot up in China ge Joe.

This a go.

So shorts, T shirts, what else?

Switch shirts, hoodies, socks, hats, So start off with that. So just a small range bit of forty.

Piece nearly accessories as well.

Exactly exactly and.

I to stop me, but did you have you must have had a fairly big a reasonable audience from me forty days, so.

Yeah, not too bad.

I wouldn't say the biggest, the biggest following, but a lot of people knew, like outside of regular league the eighty minutes. I loved clothing I love and I'd always like take photos of fits and that that I put up on my Instagram. And you know, I'm from the era of like living my adulthood.

With no social media.

Then also this thing coming through with social media and you're getting used to it, you know. I'd go to like Warriors functions and I'll wear a cardigan and Ivan Claire. He would always come up to me with a smile on his face, saying, fuck, what are you wearing there?

Mate?

That's fucking terrible, do you know what I mean? But I always stuck true to who I was, and that's what he loved about me the most. And we'd go on footy trips and all the boys would hassle me about wearing you know, like Cardigan's tight jeans and all, you know, all the craze, and then they'd get me one on one. They'd be like, hey, Louis, can you take me shopping? My missus ask if I could dress a little bit like you're a little bit more so I'll start to see the boys sort of accept me

J King to a rising tide.

So you rising tider is health nutrition or health span lifespan, which is about nutrition and nutrition is about making sure you have the right balance of everything you need, whether it's what you whether it's through what you eat or what your supplement with what you eat, along with all the other stuff sleep, blah, exercise. But it is a big rising tide in particular in the States and is starting

Everybody wants to look.

But also for people who I mean, investors are definitely interested invitament companies.

They love that.

But it is interesting again like for people listening, you can get so defeated by one investor turning you down.

It's just like again, just keep going.

Would you say, then, Jess.

That's critical for entrepreneurs who might be thinking about a journey doesn't have to be invited with whatever they're thinking about that they should always try and find themselves a co founder.

I think, I have to say, I think about people who may be doing this by themselves, and I think it's tough. I think, as I said, yes, say, my husband was having just a bit of a hard mental day in terms of managing something literally on the website, and he was defeated by it. And I'm able to say to him, but look how many visitors we had to the website, or like, think of the positives and

I mean, as you know, and as you say all the time.

On this podcast, this is tough, tough, tough, tough stuff, and so having that sounding board at all times and that emotional support. I mean, the other side of it is being very strict on boundaries. He's my husband, and I do put my marriage first.

My mom's a relationship counsel and therapist.

I've been brought up in a home where that must come first, and so I'm sort of strict about it, strict boundaries, and it's not easy to have those strict I mean, it's not easy to be strict with that because business is so demanding and it's global and it's an office in la in London and Sydney. I mean the time zones of speaking to people. You speak to people early in the morning and then late at night.

Twenty four seven.

It's a tough one, yeah, But I mean, I guess it comes down just to how you structure it out and how you manage it.

And you're right if you have the right partner.

But I think you're exactly an understanding partner.

But I think, and I've heard you say in your podcast, I think I do believe that when you have your own company and you wanted to succeed it is twenty four seven, I think I have. I've seen it with my dad, I sort of saw with my grandmother. I've seen it with sorry people like you. I've seen it with all the If I look at all the successful people in my life or who I've known, I've met, they're at twenty four seven, and so it's sort of

Yeah, it's actually you're talking about disrupt your business. The more disrupting the business into the marketplace, the more you just write the marketplace generally speaking, the more disrupt.

Your lifeptions disruption everywhere.

I think you're right and be prepared for it.

And if you're prepared for it, then there's no surprise. You're okay, yeah, and you'll be fine.

There does come a moment in business, don't you think, where you sort of I think the first couple years is tough, and then there comes a moment where you.

Realize this is how it has to be.

And I think when you come but when you surrender to that and you accept it, it becomes almost easier because I was sort of like rejecting this twenty four seven. This is so demanding, this is so intense, this is crazy, this is hard. But sort of when you come to terms and make peace with it, this is the reality of what it is to build a brand, especially a

Well, I just take the view, not only is it the way it has to be, this way it is.

It is.

That's the way it is, and if you don't like it, to leave. If you do like it, stay in and talk to me about work life balance and all that shite.

There is a rubbish.

Yeah, I think with building a brand when it's your own, like, it's different when you're working for when you're building your own brand, go with it. There's no there is no perfect work life balance.

Back feel like, you know, they give ship my work life balance and no good And I'm not talking to my kids enough and I'm doing my parents, my brother's sister. Then I just, oh, should I haven't spend for a while, But ago and do a bit exactly.

And a couple of breaks like weekends.

You know, my husband I would take one break a year over Christmas because we close the office, like taking breaks when we can just to reset our minds. I actually think it sometimes has made me better at my job to take that two week break at the end of the year, just to reset, refresh.

But yeah, this is relentless. This is obsessive.

This is having a no pad next to your bed every night because you wake up at three in the morning down the ideas. This is going at the same staff member all day, all day until the banner is on the website. This is checking the website fifty times a day until it's perfect because you've seen that the arrow button is falling underneath the wrong line. This is staff problems. This is hr This is relentless. I think

You've got to try and.

Make sure you sort of detach yourself, and we hear this in the Buddhism all the time about this not attaching yourself to things, whether it's material things or conceptual things as well. So you've got to sort of basically detach yourself from the business you're working in.

Yeah, and you do that by grounding yourself in who you are without their business.

So your own values, your own values.

So what you're kind of and I think that we spent so much time thinking about business values. You write it up on the wall and we have workshops talking about what the values of your business are. Very few of us think about what values I am as a person, and that is way more important than a business value.

Give me an example a couple of the value.

So we're talking about like in terms of usual virtues, like I'm respectful, I'm generous.

Yes, Yeah, there's a bunch of them in the book. I've got the top fifty most common ones. So for me my values Optimism is a huge value of mine. Fairness and equality and community.

They're kind of like my values and.

So they're not unique to me, but how I order them and how they kind of come to life. And you get most of these values from parents, or from mentors, or from people that you admire.

Yeah.

So but let's say someone just kicking off, I mean, where does that How does a young person or a person for that matter, evaluate Let's say the fifty virtues, the values or things we stand life stands for. How does someone choose because you can't do a fifties to a lot? I mean, how would you say to someone, go and choose a girl about choosing these things?

Because a really simple exercise, which would be think of someone that you really admire, so someone you look up to. It could be someone you know, or it could be someone in the media, or it could be someone a celebrity, and then start listening out what are the qualities in them that you admire, Like, what do you admire.

In them outside of materiality?

Outside materiality?

Yeah, but it could be and that's sort of being famous.

Yeah, Like you're looking for the values that make them them, So you know, like what's admiral about it? Yeah, you want to kind of get to the core. It's not about like surface level of they have a nice car. Yeah, this is more about they're really freaking honest.

Oh they've got It's also they've got a hot Instagram page.

Yeah yeah, Yeah, it's outside of that. We're trying to get to the core. So I call them anchors because I want to differentiate them a little bit from work values. So an anchor suggests it's something that's at the core of somebody, and that is ideally it's someone you know because you can you know it could be your parent, or it could be an uncle, or it could be

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

And so working backwards is sort of a process of instead of all of a sudden finding yourself you're sixty five and you think, what the fuck have been doing? Armal life is giving yourself a fighting chance to not.

Be in that position when you turn five.

In other words, recognizing day one, re lease and hopefully every day of your life what I'm actually work towards.

Yeah, what am I doing it?

Yeah?

Just read just all I want with this book is for people to think perspective then yeah, yeah, just get a bit of thought, because sometimes I think I call it the default mode, is where you just get on this treadmill and it pushes you off at sixty five and you get there and you realize, I'm too old to do those things I've been dreaming of doing since I.

Was twenty or I didn't save enough money, didn't.

Save enough money, didn't look after my health, especially that one, especially that one, didn't look after relationships. I've got there now and I need to try and repair my relationship with my kids.

Whatever it is.

All of that happens by default without thinking. You just get on this treadmill and you get off, and that to me is like you're just just doing and not thinking. So all I want is for people to just like have a moment to just reassess and look. And for me, that moment was I said I left my job after fifteen years. COVID happened, which was a huge global experiment, and my dad passed away in twenty twenty one at twenty twenty two, and that to me was a hugely important moment.

He was my hero.

All a lot of the qualities that I have now I inherited from him, and that made me reconsider just am I happy? What are my values? What's important to me? And I live in the life I want to live, And those three things happen and that's where the germ of this book came from.

And and before I just we close, its running out of top. But like you're exit from Junkie Media, which was twenty sixteen sixteen, Yeah, so what was it that prompted that?

Yeah, it was It was a couple of things. One, it was timing, so we could see that there was going to be a peak of a market.

So it was time, yes, potentially.

Yeah, yeah, it was time.

That was important.

Two was.

Myself and a business partner had worked for ourselves the whole time, and I felt like we got to the limit of what we could teach ourselves and we wanted to learn and be part of a bigger company and just get those extra business skills that you get. So we decided to take it to market. So we got an advisor on board. We took it to market. And the process is you start off with this list and there was like thirty companies and it's all amazing, and

Interested because the market wasn't right at the course of the market.

They can be the right buyers, you can be the right asset, but the market's.

Got to be right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The three things that the company needs to be aligned, the acquirer's company and board needs to be aligned, and the market.

Yeah.

And we had two of those, but not that third one.

So that's interesting because you can't force a sile, does man Aguja the marketplace determines when people want to buy.

Yeah.

And it was the most fascinating lesson when we got to call it from the advisor saying, just had a call from company X, and then a day or two later he's like, you would never leave this, but company why is also called And that to us was extraordinary, So we then reopened the process just for them. They both kind of end up bidding against each other and then we.

Chose one and you went through the usual due diligence period what we did.

And we ended up not going with the company that offered the most money.

And why is that?

Because we went with a.

Company that was really aligned with what we wanted. There was other factors, especially for what I wanted, staff, an audience, staff and audience and also development. I had a three year earnout, as my business partner did, and that's three years working for someone else, So I wanted it to be someone that I wanted to work from and learn from.

Yeah, and most important part about it that are you're right, is giving yourself the best possible chance of actually achieving the earn out. And that's got to be someone who knows what they're doing. But also, I think equally to originally I seemply we're aligned on this one, Timbers.

I like to learn.

And bench strength is so important. You know, getting a really good bench, like you know your buyer who's got bench who has ben strength, They've got a lot of experience, and shit, you can you can, you can get you can gain from that.

Yeah, And so an example of that is I left the business after four years. My business partner who came is still there eight years later in a big, huge role, really kind of enjoying and learning new things. So it was a really successful acquisition for them in terms of hires.

In that case, I do think the two words that

That could happen if this doesn't work?

So if I head up overseas, what's the worst thing that can happen, I just come home if it doesn't, you know, if it doesn't work out. So that has really helped. So the courage, but the curiosity I think, I mean, I think people that know me would describe me as a real learning person.

I'm just always wanting to learn. Hence will love podcasts.

You know, my family are sick of me going oh I was listening to this podcast and blah.

Blah blah blah.

They're like enough with the podcast.

They'll be saying to you now because listen to you on the podcast.

They'll be like, oh, mum, really anyway, So the curiosity, So I've always been like, just wonder us, what is going on?

Why is that happening? What's that person doing?

So Interestingly, the reason I got into the whole McKinsey and Company was not because it was the dumb thing out of an NBA. It was that someone who knew I loved solving problems, was like, oh, you should meet so and so, and that person happened to work at McKinsey and Company.

And I was like, what is this thing? What is management consulting?

That sounds really interesting?

Oh you get to solve different problems every three or four months.

Oh, that sounds like me.

And so it was.

It was the curiosity.

So those two things.

But how do you in that role?

Though? So when you see someone suggested something to you, was that just an acquaintance lucky lucky that is, or was it or did you come about making sure that you knew people?

Well I'm about to come on to that actually, because I'd say courage and curiosity. But the two other things

Task to get out of.

The weeds and meet people and just be curious. So those connections have ultimately paid dividends. But I didn't do that to be deliberate a connection. I'm not a networker, and in fact I railed against that for years, which is why I didn't do as much of it as possible. But when I actually worked out the power of connections and helping people and they help you, that for me

I want to be, is care.

So for me, I really care for people, and I think you don't want to get yourself in people leadership roles if actually you're just doing it for the title, or you're just doing it to earn a bit more money. I think you do genuinely have to care for people, and I think too many leaders get into leadership or managers, I should say, get into leadership positions, and they don't have that care and empathy for people, And that's where I think it often creates quite toxic workplaces.

But what would you say to you know, because I should rephrase this, A lot of people understand or at least they've read about or been told about, this connection piece, and they tend to overspend too much time on that and not enough time of being in the weeds in other words, of building their skill, building up their resume. I don't mean in terms of where they worked, but the knowledge base. How did you ever get a where you felt like you're over balancing one compared to the other.

Totally, totally and in fact, and I.

Was wasting time in other words meaning people.

No, actually I was the opposite.

So I got overlooked for a role. So this is definitely I wouldn't call this is one of those lessons learned.

I got overlooked for a role.

And second prize for not getting the role is I was fortunate enough to then be sent to a course at Harvard, Right, So I did a women and executive leadership role at Harvard, and there was this incredible lecturer called Francis Frye, and I'll never forget it.

She said. Look, ultimately, if you really want to succeed.

Particularly in corporate life, I would say is you have to remember three things. Credibility, so being incredibly good at your job, executive presence or just presence, and the way that you present yourself, and then connections and sponsorship. And the problem with many women, so for all the research that they've done is that women over index the first one, the credibility. So you just get in, you do your job, and you just think the rest will take care of itself.

And do you still maintain that totally?

Totally.

Yeah.

The strange thing is I naturally love being with people, meeting people, and that has so helped me throughout my career. I just hadn't, I think for me, I was so busy as a young mum and I just was like all about doing a good job. I thought networking and meeting people that was just wasting time because I didn't have enough time.

Time was of the essence, and I just did not see it as a priority in my job at that time.

As you still had the kids. So how did you then the children? So how did then did you reprioritize your time to actually make connections and be in the executive Yeah, be a good executive in front of people, in other words, not takeing up the smaller space, actually occupy your space.

How did you do that?

So it's really it's as boring as saying it's about calendar management.

So in any.

Given week, you know, making sure that you're prioritizing doing a good job at what you're doing, but also key connections and who you're meeting and what you're doing, and really making sure in any given week or any given fortnite that you're prioritizing both and you're managing your calendar equivalently.

I could fill my diary.

Up just by doing my job, you know, the sort of what's going on in all of that side of things. But you have to manage your calendar accordingly and realizing that that's a priority.

They were the two things.

So that's interesting.

It's sort of like what's interesting about that too many ways as you're talking, is that a where super is about managing its portfolio, which is diverse for you, It's about managing your portfolio. So it's like a portfolio management process totally. This is my portfolio. It's external stakeholders, internal stakeholders as staff, it's markets and you know, and you can fill in all the sub categories in each.

One of those. That's my portfolio. So I've got to manage this.

Sometimes it's backfilling because you might be under managing something, putting enough time because you had to do something over here, something going on over here, dragged you in, pulled you in. But sometimes it's back feeling something. But each week, so is your approach you called a diary management or color and of management, which is sort of underplaying it a little bit, I think, being humble, but you really are running a portfolio of things that you need to attend.

Yeah, And I think for me, what I certainly do and I do like a quarterly check in, but I do a major thing at the beginning.

Of every year.

I go, right at the end of the day, what do I really want to achieve this year? And both personally and professionally, but on the professional side, in the role of a CEO, what are the five.

Most important things I got to do?

And so I write them down, I put them right in front of me, and I just come back really regularly to check in that that's where my time and attention is focused, because it's so easy to go off to one thing that it's urgent or in fact.

It's just interesting to you.

You know, both things happen, and so for me, it's always coming back to what's the most important elements of my role and where can I have the most impact for the team and for our members importantly.

You know, one of the big issues for founders is that there's no one point of place or one point of truth if you like, for all of these sort of question and so it is a lot of figuring out. So there's a reason that Steve jobs just for that black skivy every day because you just didn't want to make any more decisions because there's so many that you have to make, and this is one of them. ESOPs is one, and you know, how are you going to structure it?

Earnings?

You know, if they stay a certain period of time, and then that's which is we would recommend you know, you just don't want to be getting equity out at the beginning because you want to see the people going to stay because startups are hard, and so you want to make sure that people are in it for a long period of time.

So it's sort of how do you structure that in a way that.

Serves you as the founder and actually gives them what they need to be incentivized and to actually, you know, stay for the right reasons.

And that brings me to the thing.

The very one of the most portant things that I know, I think exists in these environments is and it applies to an easel, applies to when a VC might be coming in evaluation.

So it's all very well to say to.

Someone, look, you're I want two under grands one hundred grads worth of work out of you the next two months, but I can't.

Pup for to pay you. So I'm going to give you options.

And let's assume we've got the right tax structure and it's all in place, and that individual says, yeah, I like one hundred thousand of options. I've got another job, so I'm going to do this stuff at night. It's an extra one hundred grand, and I believe what you're doing,

You haven't got a sale yet? How do you work out? How do you work the shit out?

Like?

How do you say?

I mean, how do you what proxies do you use? Like you haven't got a sale? You're talking to somebody who you want to come into. It could be a CMO, it could be a see if I could be anyone with any expertise that you don't have, could be a develop and you can't afford to pay them because it's hard to raise money. The moments you said so, you

You just don't.

You've got to convince them.

Somehow, have to give it.

That's another we'll put that to the next lily. Add that to the ongoing list of things that founders have to do.

That's right. Valuations at that stage, early stage.

You know, you're right, how do you value a business that hasn't really done anything yet?

So we do look for proxy.

So we're looking, you know, in the US and other markets to see what you know, try and get as much information as.

We have when we do those early stage valuations.

But it is a bit yeah, you know, figure out the air.

Yeah, absolutely, But at least.

I mean, one of the advantages you may not like make me saying this, but of having KPMG sitting in there is that someone's going to say at least they they KPMG gave us some corporate experience in terms of perhaps producing the valuation or at least being aware of the valuation. Like if I'm an investor, I need to know that someone else has done a sanitory check on this thing, or a reasonable list check at least. Yeah, but I know you don't endorse evaluation.

But no, no, that's fine.

I mean, even if that's the call the case, the investor can still go no, yeah, yeah, I don't believe it.

So in this environment, it's so well they will. Yeah, certainly this environment.

I mean, the valuations are certainly down across the board, but I mean it is so subjective at that stage that it becomes I mean, then another thing you need.

To be good at as a founder's negotiation. So you've got to negotiate through that.

So you know, that's and that's where you've probably got to create tension in the deal by having a number of investors that want you and how do you how do you work through that and get yourself the best deal without sacrificing too much, Because it comes down to if you don't get the money, well then maybe the company falls over.

But if you give it to such.

A low valuation, then that's very hard pill to swallow. There is no point because you already have less and less equity as time goes on, and so you'll end up with nothing.

And we've seen that.

We've got some founders we try to work with now that have come to us because they've got so little equity. And these are these are experienced founders. To be honest, we just don't quite know how it's happened because they've all got very experienced vcs on the cap table and they're looking at they've got under ten percent, and so they're.

Going they're working for everybody else.

Well, now, the thing is they've said to the vs we're walking away, and so we're trying to Rea.

We're trying to work out how to fix it.

Because so that's the problem with if you take it, if the evaluation is too low from the beginning, you've got to know that you just go to you know, you sort of go to have less and less equities time goes on as you take more capital, so you've got it.

That's another thing.

How do you think through that as someone who most of these people have no experience in this. So these are the technicians a lot of the time, yeah they are, but even that, like I'm from a commercial background. I haven't had to negotiate. You know, before I did startups, I wasn't negotiating equity. No one talks to you about that, and certainly it's more common now. But you know, the startup ecosystem in Australia, if you think, really is sort of kicked off in twenty ten eleven.

I had startups before that. They weren't even called startups. Think they're just called crappy businesses.

That no one wanted to work for, and equity was No one was talking about those sort of things then.

So at least it's being talked about. But it's still hugely confusing, I think, and hard as hard.

It's really hard because you've got a retreat in terms of investors. You've got to retreat in terms of those people want to put money with the vcs in the first place, which means the vc has got less money to invest. The vc' has got more pressure on them than ever before to get a return because they just don't have money flowing into them like they did during the COVID period. During the COVID period, everything was overinflated. It just was so I saw I saw one. I

Quite quickly.

And this is during the right beginning COVID, sort of during the beginning, the first part of COVID. They raised ten million dollars offer quite a big valuation, but that had nothing, They had no sale, they didn't even have it produced. And then what happens is these individuals tell the marketplace, they tell everybody a look, they feel obliged to announce it.

Perhaps they want to announce it.

Perhaps investors wanted to announce two during a hot period because the investors want it to be announce so that they can go and raise money themselves into the fund. And then other people are watching this and they go, oh, hang on, they raised ten mili off this valuation.

They were like, super.

Early stage, I can do the same. Well, why can't I do the same?

I think I know the deal you're talking about, and you can't do the same because those found those founders of that company have had a big they're quite if it's the.

Same one super experience.

But then it comes down that's a really good example because then you won't be able to do the same unless you've had the same experience as those founders, So we know that.

They probably woudn't do the same today anyway.

Yeah, and we and look, we know second time founders get funded for obvious reasons more easily than first time founders, So you know, I wouldn't I think in that equation when you look at the valuation, we're always going to look at the experience of the founders and things like that.

It's going to if they've got this interesting, I'll bump the valuation up for sure, Which.

Is why that if it is the same one those people were able to raise on, they raised so much money on such a high valuation because of the experience of that team. Came down to and it was a problem that they had experience when they were growing their last company, so they had some pretty solid evidence around the problem and they feel they.

Could build a solution to it.

So I suppose the investor went experienced team, we all know the problem is a real problem. I think we've given their experience they can probably build the solution. We'll give them the ten million.

And see how they go.

And but of faith, it's a big leap of faith. And again I wonder if that would happen today.

I don't know.

My feeling is a probably be a lot tougher.

It would be a lot tougher.

And also, you know, you've had to read the paper today and the vcs are under scrutiny as well.

You know, you've got one couple of years ago.

You look, I'm an investor in a few of the funds, and I was like, great, the evaluations were all up.

It all looks great.

And now I'm looking at it, going, what have you been investing in? These companies look terrible? So I wasn't really looking that closely when it was all high. But now I'm like, I like that one or that way. So there is more scrutiny on them too, so I think they're going to be a bit more careful. And also there was a bit of i'd say they copped a bit of flack around the way they're investing before the sort of market dropped, so it was a bit of a free for all. We saw companies, you know,

So would you suggest to early early stage, early stage entrepreneurs that they perhaps try to hunt down a.

Few wells for themselves. Yeah, as opposed to going to the vcs.

Look, I think if you can get to hein and it works great.

And also the big increases family officers, So seeing the family officers are certainly playing in this space. Definitely in the climate, tech, impact, is sustainability, all of that, that space is very popular.

They sort of like it.

I'd say, if you're going for your fun, if you're looking for funds, look for ones you know they'll they'll specify on their website the amounts.

You know you've got to get. An early stage investor