Welcome to the Mentor, and I'm Mark Boris.
Ben Crowley, Welcome to the Mentor, Mate, thanks for having us as welcome. Now.
You're the founder and director of Bulk Nutrients.
And we're going to talk about Bulk Nutrients in a moment. And I have to say you're one of the major sponsors of our highly regarded Project one hundred series and I appreciate that. And I do use your stuff too, by the way, but I don't look that bulky, but I do use your stuff. And we've got a few of the few of the items here and I don't know why we've got water in there, but I presume they're going to want me to shake one up something.
I'm not sure Ben your business, you're you just from Tasmanium, so maybe you could just tell us is your business base in Tasmania and you're a national business.
What's the deal?
Yep? So just one thing I mentioned to the bulk from the name actually comes from buying in bulk and saving money rather than being.
Well priced, absolutely very well priced, right ye yea for sure?
Yeah yeah, And then unfortunately did papers But I do, I do use this stuff, and Ben's been great to make sure that I've got whatever. They got so much of arrange to I've got a shock the stuff you've got. You've got so many different things. I wouldn't even know how to go through them. Or there's so many things, and I keep trying of trying everything. But my ones might and creating. So they are two really important ones for me, yep and I.
But I guess I should have stop talking about me.
I'm I'm more interested in you, but to be that's what it's just shows about you today. So when did you Why is it you decided to set up a nutrient business?
Okay, so this goes back to about two thousand and four. I was living in Japan teaching English and teacher, well an English teacher, so it's kind of you do an adhole course to do that rather than being a full time but you can teach this as a second language.
Can you speak Japanese?
Next question? One of the beautys of teaching in Japan is they didn't want us to speak Japanese at all, so that suited me. You know, it's a weird.
That's a weird. That's weird. So how do you know about that? Like, how'd you find ou about something like that.
I guess teaching English's second language. Teaching is pretty pretty popular with younger people.
Yeah.
The idea is you can kind of go go around the world and it's different places. And I was originally going to go to Mexico. Long story, but I'm a big boxing fan. And they met a guy in a
boxing forum that said, why don't you come to Japan first? Okay, that'd be cool, and I looked into it a bit and thought, yeah, that looks looks interesting and he was telling me, you know what kind of great life style you have as a young Australian over there, And yeah, ended up just kind of organizing myself, jumping on a plane and it's a pretty cool place. I was amazing, and especially twenty five years ago. Twenty years ago it was it was great. Yeah, I mean still is great,
but yeah, probably the pay and things back then. I think even ten years before was really good. Whereas you don't really want to be teaching over there now because you're not earning much.
So you're a boxing fan, massive boxing fan. Yeah, yeah, so you've got a couple of good fighters come down, come from Tasmania. Jacko, He's what he fought for the world title, and I think the featherweight division. He fought the Irishman jack Ash Jackson. Unfortunately he lost that fight, but he's a great he's a Tasmanian. And you've got who is the other guy, the other featherweight, the blonde head featherweight.
We've got a younger with sponsored, Sebastian sab he's pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Look, I mean boxing a big love of mine. So actually you just have a lot to do with robbery Peden. Don't know if you know bomb and Peton. But he was a world champion. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, but I saw him win a world title and I watched Sam Solomon a couple of times too time. Sorry, Sam, I know, just.
So that would have been Sam would have been in the sort of two thousand and two twenty.
Yeah.
He had a pretty awkward fighter.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
He used to sort of get down low and it was always hard to hit him. And I remember he Ford Garth would for there was a top ten fight and they would have given a Garth ranking the same at the time was two or three in the middleway division. Sam very a good fighter. I don't know whatever happened to him, but I usually watched him. He was really weird way he was able to get really down low and then he'd come in at you pretty hard.
It was an awkard fighter. Yeah, so you used to watch Sam and that I did.
Actually, Sam had a fight against go called David Reid. He was sort of established in America. I think it was David Reid something like that, and I think Sam went in late notice and he did his funky style and he almost it was almost a massive upset, you know. The Americans like, where the hell is this guy?
Yeah?
I love boxing, Why do I look? I kind of like the underdog story, you know, I see our stories a little bit like that. But look, there's a lot of sports. I'm a massive motors sport fan, and that's the complete opposite like boxing, a little bit like soccer and a lot of these other true international games where you come from a poor family, you know, train really hard and too well and yeah, kind of a bit
of a Cinderella type thing. And I think I've always loved boxing because it's a story of kind of the underclasses and some of those poorer countries and I don't know, you know, grit and determination everything. I think all those values that I really admire, Like you've got to have those to be a good boxer, you know, I like just flashy guys. But yeah, it's.
Interesting when you say the under class, because you don't see boxing toward anything. You know, the private schools maybe probably worried about kids getting hurt and different things, but used to those they used to it. In fact, my oldest son boxed at Scott's College. It's twenty more than twenty five years ago now, but they probably a couple of years after he left. You just got rid of it because it was sort of deemed to be a
little unpopular. But you're right, it is. That's there was the cinerelement that movie, So there is there is that, you know, from poverty and ashes. Boxing was the opportunity to make a quid, may name yourself and turn through things around. The obviously is rocky, Yes, the great story. So that sort of stuff appeals to you taking an establishment so to speak.
Absolutely, Yeah, yeah, no, I think so. Yeah. I guess when you sort of grow up and you the way you see yourself and sort of fitting into society and those around you, and I probably more identified as a bit of an outsider, and yeah, hence you know the story with OLK two that was watched. The term disruptive, you know in terms of coming into industry and doing
things quite differently. So you come over from Japan, Yeah, we actually I was over in Japan at the time and I was buying a lot of products from America.
And what type products?
Yeah, so protein powders, all of the brands, you know, opt nutrition, the popular brands that big there, buying them into Japan through online stores, and then realizing looking at going, why do we pay so much for this stuff? In Australia? You know what's going on here, you know, exactly the same products. And that's when my first goal was to
maybe import American products into Australia. And the more research I did on manufacturing the products where the ingredients come from, the more I realized that we could make these products in Australia.
So was it more about I mean, the typical or the build explanation or definition of someone who's disrupting is to make a product more affordable and more accessible. Was this about just making it well? Assuming the product quality, We'll talk about the product quality of the moment, But was about making it more affordable.
Yeah, absolutely, but also quality. So what is most commonly the case is people come to a market and they go, how do I make a more sophisticated product. Now I realized at the time that what consumers wanted, and consumers like my health was we actually want a more simple product.
So back then it was you know, American brands, lots of claims, lots of ingredients, lots of smoke and mirrors, and it was really clear that people just said, look, if someone gives us a protein powder as pure as possible with a little bit of flavoring sweetener in there, that's what we want. And so what we did is we said, look, it'll be a more simple product, it will be much more pure, and you'll buy it directly
from us. So our manufacturer direct model the ideas that we source all the ingredients, lots of Australian New Zealand proteins, blend them all up and then sell them to the customer and through the online shop. And so there's no distributors, you know, no importers, no one else that will sort of middleman retail, et cetera earning their chunk.
So then that's so can we just talk about your let's call it the business model in terms of making it more more affordable, get more less expensive if we could.
I do want to talk about the product.
And ingredients at the moment, just put out a side, but just in terms of the structure of how you make something.
More affordable. YEP, I was gonna say tribute, but no, that's.
Sort of more affordable.
That sort of suggests.
Something and the ingredients or something like that, so more affordable. The business model is that what did you do first? Did you sit down and examine every single stage of what everybody else is doing? In other words, you know, produced a product, producing packaging, distributed distribution costs. Did you sit down and then break down that down and sort of say these things I can get rid of basically?
Yeah, and if we look, let's just run through a scenarios. Let's say Mark Morris goes, look, I want to have a protein company. If you want to be as easy as possible, what you do, as you'll reach out to a contractor. Now they will manufacture.
The product a food A food.
Sorry, that's right, A nutritional suppleon't manufacturer. And there's lots of those, lots of you know, certainly good quality establishments around Australia to this contracting. They would then most commonly get the ingredients from Australian supplier. Now that Australian supplier deals with overseas suppliers deals with Australian dairies, but they're
also another middleman. Now, once that company, that contractor for you, buys those ingredients through the supplier, that's obviously a margin there. They're manufacturing that product, they're putting a margin on, and then if you want to sell that same product through retailers,
that's another margin there. Now, pretty much from day one we went directly to supplies in Australia, so actual dairies and pharmaceutical ingredient manufacturers overseas and we're buying direct from them and again getting the ingredients to us doing the manufacturing and then selling direct to the customer. So there's about three different people there that will normally have a margin that don't have a margin with our model.
Which means it doesn't reflect them in the business model pricing.
That's right, yeah, yeah, yeah, And look it's a great way of saying that we can use were used to advertise, you know, you get what you pay for because I like that. And it's like with bog nutrients, it's what you're not paying for, and so you're not paying for that extra supplier, the extra importer, the contractor, and the retailer. It's just going from our factory and we're sourcing lots of ingredients at one time, manufacturing the product, and then sending it straight to the customer.
So let's just pick on protein from a moment. Let's pick on Way protein because that's one of your products. And you weren't like a you're not a food scigentist or anything like.
That, No, no ah.
But you get food signists in so you have to have someone to tell you know it formulates.
Yeah, and look, look, lots of our team. We've got massive experience our team for many decades.
Let's go back to two thousand and six, whatever it was when it started. Yes, how did you do that?
So the original formulations for the way proteins were not particularly complex. So yeah, all you're dealing with is getting a really high quality protein. In the first place, it tell us what way is it? So way, so when they make the during the cheese making process, way is what's extracted from the cheese. So you probably know the nursery rhyme about the kurds in the way. Now, once upon a time they used to throw liquid way in
the bin and they realized it full of protein. But to get that protein they have to go through a pretty complex filtrations process and system.
It's sort of like a milky.
It's not a milky like, it's like a it's sort of not clear, but it's translucent sort of.
That's right now. Turning that, I think that liquid way is only about one percent or maybe five percent solids. But to get that into a way protein is quite a process because you've got to get rid of all the water. I've got to get rid of the fats and things, and the lactose too, and so that's a pretty complicated process. But basically when we get the ingredient from a dairy. There's only about two or three dairies in Australia that actually manufacture wag protein, and luckily for us,
one of those is in Tasmania, which is pretty cool. Yeah, but some of the highest quality proteins are made in New Zealand and Australia.
Right, what do terms highest quality good good?
Question? Well, it would be the cows what foods they're fed, you know, predominantly grass fed. A lot of people make claims around grass fed, and it's difficult in Australia because you can never guarantee something as one hundred percent grass fed. But you know, for the most part it will be a lack of certain hormones and things using the cattle, So we tend to not use the same hormones that you know, let's say I'm all free instead of Europe
and America. But then when it comes to the finished product, what you're wanting is a product that's really high in protein and then low in fats and carbo hydrates. So we're very specific about accepting only proteins that are especially our oceolate's very high in protein and low in fats and carbs.
So what did you do when you first kicked it off? Did you go around to some dairy farmers in Tazzi because there's quite few, In fact, I had one on the show here or about two years ago, who is one of the biggest dairy farmers in Tasmania. And did you just go knock on doors and say, hey, dude, look, I want to buy your way.
A kind of but so we don't deal with the dairies themselves, but it's the people that own the processing plants. So that might be fon Terror which are a massive sort of New Zealand Australian conglomerate and basically you know, emailing them, having meetings with them and supplies that they deal with too, and just yeah, coming to terms on you know what quality product do you have? Getting some samples, trying things out, and.
The symbols of the actual of the way protein not not the way itself, no no, so when when we get it, so we don't do the actual processing of the way protein. We get in dry usable form and
then we're doing the blending. So so Fonterra as a well known company around the place, and Fonterra will go get the picks the way out from everybody and they I don't know what ever, boil it and then reduce get rid of ale the water anywhere and reduce it down to like a like a solid form which and they somehow they make it into powder.
It's all all dryers and things too. Like it's quite a competent price.
It sounds like a complex process, but you buy it from them, correct and but you specify this and I don't want so in terms of provenance of what you're buying from them or what they're offering for you to buy, in terms of you're being clear on the providence of it. And for example, that is not being ways not coming from cow's milk, that's sort of where the herd's been sitting in some being eating. You know, how do you
know that that's not the case? Does Fonterra give you a certificate or something correct?
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so's there's a lot of back and forth with dairies and processes about you know, what's done in Australia. We have very strict rules actually, yeah, so there's for dairy to come into Australia in the first place, it has to be normally very high standard and very safe, so free and foot in mouth disease and all of that kind of thing. So I think we have one of the high standards in the world.
But when it comes to day it comes to dairy. Yeah, so do we import the milk Sometimes?
I don't think we import the milk, but we certainly import completed way protein powders. So yeah, I mean, look, we also use American way protein, and some of those are really high quality. But again we've got some very fussy standards in terms of how height needs be in protein, how the carbohydrates are, and then other information about being hormone free inside.
Because I saw something the other day, I can't rememberhe it was, I was listening to it. But let's say they make a batch of protein which is prote powdered, and it might be in a big one ton machine. What if you call it like a big.
Container of one ton, and they and that they were saying that. Now in the United States you can get batch testing done. Yes, per batch, No, it was, let's call it per ton yep. So someone goes into that one batch and scrip a little bit out from where I don't know, and sends it off to a lab and get its test, gets it tested for contaminants.
I guess, yes, what are they testing for?
Normally, if you're doing away protein, you could be testing for micros. So that's microbes, yes, yeap, bacteria yep, exactly. But the more common tests that we do and others in our industry should be doing, is the protein quality testing. So that's basically there. If I'm paying for a way protein isolate that says it's ninety percent protein. I want to ensure that I've given given that to customers. Now,
something unique about pol Nutrients. For look, it's probably twelve or thirteen years we've been testing four batches a protein every single month, and we have all of those results from you know, twelve years ago to now. That'd be
close to one thousand lab tests on our website. So if you're buying away protein isolator or concentrate from us or one of our protein blends, literally you can go back more than ten years and check, you know, what batch was that, what protein level do we claim it was?
And then what it was and where the only company Australia that's people do sporadic tests and might have a few things on their website that might be a couple of years old or whatever else, but we literally have I think it would be close to one thousand lab reports on our website.
Do we in Australia have some sort of stamp to say something's been batch tested or approved by I don't know TJ or whoever it is. Somebody here is there's some authority that.
Is not not exactly so we have has to testing, which is all about band substances. Yeah, but that that's separate, so it has to really covers all the band ingredients so antidoping stuff. Yeah, but the quality testing is completely separate to that, and that's I guess with orditors. You know, if you're ordered by New South Wales Food Authority, that's company in New South Wales or Past Area Authority for US, you're basically just showing them your your test results and things,
and that's not as strictly audited. The more strict auditing is around the microbe levels and stuff.
So we just quickly bring it into I don't want to just sit on this too long because it's quite dense, but we're looking at micro level lot microbe levels, which is probably indicating bacteria and bad stuff.
Let's manea and whatever else, and basically saying that we're free of all.
That things made it sick. The second one is the actual amount of protein in the batches, like per whatever it is. And and the final one is that's not contaminants but like or no additives, things that like wader would like an athlete can't use like water would something like wide it would be against like us R or would have the equivalent of the United States. So there's
sort of three things. And then when it comes to looking at protein content, is there a a quality there is there some protein it's better quality than others?
I don't mean.
What I don't mean by that is like if a consumer is looking at that, is there like an equality protein, B quality protein, a super quality protein, or is something becomes a B quality protein because it's got maybe got some some small insignificant amount of contaminants in there.
Look, I think that genuityf we're talking about an A and B and C quality protein that would be based on what former protein is. So, way protein it almost always considered an A class protein. And then that's also determined by it's a meno acid combination. Yep. So your ability to build muscle from protein we're based on what's
its actual amino acid composition. Right now, Way protein is generally considered the best because it has a higher level of a branch and of mino acids and essential amino acids, and it's better than let's say, collagen and also plant proteins for building muscle.
For that reason, it's also quite bi available in the time.
Is that's right? Yeah, yep.
Yeah, it's a combination of that something unless you sort of allerdes you to milk.
Yep. It has the highest biovailability. And whenever they've run tests on plant proteins versus way proteins, almost always that way proteins will give a better result in terms of building muscle and recovery.
So I mean, and I mean, I was talking about this the other day to Simon Hill on our Project one hundred show, and is it. I mean, you're obviously that you've got scientists and all sorts of working for you, and we'll come back to that. You know how many people you are working for in a moment, and you know.
Where you distribute, et cetera.
But in terms of you know, people walk around these days saying, well, we should be taking between one point six and two point two grams of protein per kilogram of weight. Do you, guys, as an organization, you have a view on that?
Yeah, I mean, I think it looks certainly that most of the science when it comes to healthy living, longevity, building muscle seems to be about that, you know, two grams per kilo. But look, I think it really depends, you know, if you're an endurance athlete that say, you might be having a high level of carbs and lower level of protein. If you're cutting weight for an event or something in a sporting event or boxing match, then
you may change that a little bit too. But that seems to be the generally sort of respected number.
Let's call it a Joe blow walking around. You know, he's fifty years of age.
Trains every day.
About myself, I'm not that I'm a bit old enough, but the trains every day probably you know, burns seven hundred calories per session, not the same every day. You know, pretty much do something every day. You know, I get good sleep, I think. I mean, just from what I'm read, I think I probably need ben Like I probably need two grams per kilogram, but there's no way I can eat it. I just can't. Like I'm eighty five killos.
It means I need one hundred and seventy grams of protein as well as other stuff.
It's just too much for me to eat. Yeah, because the amount of protein.
Get out of meat. It means I've got a lot of meat. Yes, you know, it's just because as you get older, I mean you're too young, but not too young. You're very young, fortunately young. One thing that happens is you get older, you lose your appetite because all the things that create appetite they start to sort of disappear a bit, you know, everything, anybody sort of reduce everything, and and therefore you're not as hungry. Yes, it's weird,
think like it's weirdest thing. When I was your age, young, I was always hungry, perpetually hungry, and I could like
something's forcing me to need all the time. Now you know, I've got a I'm conscious of it's time you've got to eat, and I'm very conscious of getting enough protein into my system because otherwise, I know from the boxing, like if you don't need enough protein and you're training hard, all that happens is your muscle started to deplete, and which say, okay, if you're trying to make weight, but I don't need to make weight. I need to keep my strength and my muscle volume to a certain level
to avoid injury. Yep, I don't mean training injury. I just mean falling over. You just been able to carry stuff around, you know what I mean. So protein is like critical, critically important to something like me, amongst other things. As other things critically important to me too, but protein's really important to me. So I'm I'm just very interested to hear you know where you you're researchers and your organizations research is around levels of protein.
I think pretty much spot on to what you're saying about the two grams per killer body weight without doing a hard sell here. But that's why things like way protein shakes it so good because let's say you can only get one hundred and ten hundred and twenty grams easily from your food. A couple of shakes a day might bump up that fifty to sixty grams that extra amount, and it's pretty easy to have this without affecting your appetite too much. Yeah, you know, so I think that
that's and it's so cost effective. I mean, our most expensive WPI and it's our premium product is still like you know, at the moment, what dollar fifty served dollars seventy year serve at most compter to a one hundred gram steak that's the same amount of protein exactly give you other things is too, probably taste a bit better, but still you got to cook the bloody things you want to go to buy it.
You got to cook it, then you've got to eat it, and then you've got to digest it. Yes, and it's going to cost.
You maybe fifty bucks forty five dollars plus time.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, So you're saying it's like the thirty grams broad this is probably going to cost.
You thirty couple of bucks.
Yeah, thirty grams serve is sort of twenty six grams of protein and that's yeah, I think at the moment, because there's fluctuations and dairy markets, so this does change. But maybe about a dollar fifty dollars sixty year serve. Yeah, so yeah, very very cost effective and it's i mean one of the criticism people had this supplements years ago in protein is it's expensive, and it's like it's actually not. It can be a really cost effective way of getting your protein.
I never thought of it like that.
Like, you know, if you can compare it to where you're going to get another thirty grams of protein from yep, and you add time to it as well.
That just explodes the cost. The price. So a couple of bucks, that's that's that's cool.
I'm getting asked to go to the break, which I'm going to do it together break, I want to come back and straight back and talk to you about creatine. I want to talk to you about your digestive, your enzymes or your digesti fusion. But I also want to just talk to you about your whole range of skews. If you've got like I don't think most people realize you have a massive range of stuff from hydration drinks to greens stole drinks and over those algas.
And like it.
It's mind boggling what you guys have. Mostly we wouldn't even know unless they go to the website. But we're going together. It comes straight back. Okay, So I'm back here with Ben Crowley and he's the founder and director of Bolk Nutrients. We've just been talking about protein, actually just
mostly I guess I wanted to. And we've got a bit of a story about how you sort of got into this this this game, let's call it nutritional game, because it's not just about protein powder, it's about nutrients, nutrition generally and clearly Tasmanian, how important you think is by the way, how important is provenence? Like where what are the origins of ingredients? How important is that to you?
Look, it's reasonably important. But I mean we're completely honest here. So things like pharmaceutical ingredients, so the vitamins and minerals and those ingredients they almost always making China now and they get added that's right. But don't get me wrong, Like I mean, the biggest pharmaceutical companies and health companies and the most expensive in Australia are all getting those ingredients from China.
Yeah, yeah, why won't tell you that directly. By the way, what is it though, then, like what is it? China sort of dominates that environment that parmatudent.
I think that's just really invested heavily into it. Yeah, and their standards have risen and yeah, certainly over the last five to ten years they've gotten really really good. H and yeah, I think ninety percent of the world's pharmaceuticals would come from there. Don't quote me on that number. It is very high, it really is.
Well, it's like electronics, you know, there's hardly an electronic device that doesn't have the bulk of its electronics come out of China.
Yeah, in the world, yeah yeah, yeah.
And by the way, everything's well built, like you know, we have been through this process of using China in different business that I've involved with, and like it's not backward stuff. You go on these joints and like it's amazing, it's so big.
So clean.
Everyone's got like masks on and suits on. And I don't mean business suits. I'm talking about like sort of decontamination suits. They walk work or own things on their feet. It's heavily heavily heavily controlled, very very strict, and so that sort of makes sense to me when you said that about the nutrient world or about pharmaceuticals. At least you add pharmaceuticals to your protein.
Not this one. No, so almost all the ingredients from there will be from Australian, New Zealand or Europe. With the protein and its tiny a little bit of artificial sweetenert but we use that the safest artificial sweetener.
Sucralose sucerlose. Yeah, now what is that?
So it basically modified sugar, but it's about six hundred times sweeter than sugar.
Right, so you don't have to use use a little bit, that's right.
And the reason why we can't use the sugar is because it adds all the carbs and you are yes as low carb as possible. That said We've got some natural varieties where we use a combination of stevia and the martin, which is an ingredient and a natural sweeteners ingredient, and they're getting pretty close in terms of how close they taste to a real sugar.
You have some body they're standing there all day long taste and everything.
Well, we do a lot of a lot of R and D and a lot of tasting and that's sort of the part of the development that I really love. But yeah, look, our staff at constantly tasting stuff, you know, because our R and D team working away testing new formulas, looking at competitors products, and if you work at both nutrients, you'll be pretty used to it. We've got on a B tests, you know, you'll have two tests in front of you and you have to give you a score,
and that's normally we do them blind. Yep. Yeah, So if you don't like taking supplements and sipping on different things and giving feedback, probably not for you. Working for Bok Nutrients.
How many people got work for you now.
I think it's close to one hundred and twenty, So all.
Down and Tasi, all in Tasy, Yeah, we're all but one in Tasi.
We do have a special guy in Sydney that's worked for us for oh gosh, it must be about ten years now, your customer service guy. But yeah, otherwise all in Tasy and we just love live there. It's a beautiful.
Place, sure is. I mean I was down there this week as you know.
So, but in terms of people who work for you, how many when you first kick this business off?
How many people were there?
So look, well it was it was just me and I was working for the government part time, and I think it was about I had about four or five staff before, and they were part timers. Before I looked at all the invoices. One day I said to my wife said, I don't think I need this job anymore. I think I can just you know, keep kicking on with this folk Nutrients thing.
So that's from how you literally started started the business actually a part time job, part time, part time.
I always wanted to be, you know, the thing that I do. But I'm reasonably I would say that I'm quite aspirational and a bit radical, my deears, But economically I've always been pretty conservative, you know, so invested cash flow as much as possible, borrowed as little as possible, but made a lot of smart decisions in terms of building the business while de risking.
So how did you get your so how did your your distribution is all online, but you had to be a lot of gis behind it. Yes, in other words, ie, you online, I buy one of these, I get the dojesfusion, I tick a box, whatever it is, go into the cart, put it.
In my card, buy it.
So the first thing you had to do was establish your website and all the all the e commerce on there.
Yes, how do you do that sort of stuff?
Yeah, well that's actually an area I'm not particularly strong at. So my my sort of real strength is around I guess that the business structure and the model in terms of you know, suppliers, manufacturers, blending the product or the recipe development, that kind of thing. The e commerce side, I think I use some friends and you know, so sits and whatever else to start with. But now, you know, I mean, we've got a team of oh gosh, I've
got to get this wrong. It's like two or three data guys and about six web devs in our team, you know, So it's completely different proposition now. But yeah, those guys are probably lucky because I never get in their way because.
Because I don't know what they're doing, they know more about it than you do.
And so you got so then you you've got and then you've got the logistics. So I mean getting stuff, I mean the last mile or the delivery piece is critical, you know, in terms of experience. Yes, if I'm a customer first, especially for my first time customer, I'm trying you out, and the thing gets thrown over the bloody fence or something, the dog gets hold of it or whatever, how did you go about organizing the logistics and the last mile party business?
So we deal with I guess different postage partners, but predominantly for the last ten years on what it's been Australia post and we have a really good relationship with them. Yeah, so I guess we've kind of really pushed their level of service because one of the problems within any kind of business is that if you've got associates that you're dealing with, your service is only the standard of those of theirs. Yeah, yep, yep. So we certainly push customer
service as much as we can. We take stuff off their hands we can. In terms of tracking, there's lots of automation and stuff now. But I'd say as a larger company, we just get a better level of service too. But where we're always pushing them and look to be honest, we actually consider them a great partner. They're a big part of our success story.
So yeah, and through Star Trek Wars, through Australia Posts, through Austraight Post.
Of the biggest difference between us and a lot of companies based on what we call the mainland as Tasmanians is that we send about eighty percent or more of our orders go express post. So if you order anything under three and a half kilos, we'll send that express and that way it'll get to you in a day or two. And that tends to take the stress off the customer service team and the rest of the business because you've got the order before you've thought too much about it.
Yeah.
Perfect, So you've got your e commerce piece, you put your experts in there, You've got your logistics, which is making sure I get the product that I go on to through the e commerce site. And then the most important part now is a product. Yes, and that's where you get involved. And you said to me that most people working a joint at some stage or raither go to do an A B test where their test taste. It's just everyone, like even the econmost dudes, they get to get it and do it.
Absolutely. Yeah, No, we have. We've we've got two sites. We've got one where our main factory and the supporting staff there. We've got managers and manly based there, so all that dispatch and production happens there. And then we've got another site which I mostly work from, where our marketing,
customer service and webdev team is. And yeah, but our taste testers, the guys in R and D will come up there sort of one day a week and ensure that they get involved to and we're pretty big like that, Like you know, we have extended team meetings in our Christmas parties and midyear parties. Like we very diverse range of jobs, you know, skills and pay levels and whatever. But whenever we can kind of get together and you know, celebrate that big team we have. We look for every opportunity.
You good with your people culturally, Yeah, look, it's huge for me, so I've I think that one of the things that inspired me most about starting a business is wanting to create a place that people really wanted to work and they felt respected and loved and supported because I've had some pretty bad jobs and pretty bad bosses, and for me, that's it's something that makes me most proud about the company. And my sister in law, Jess,
so she's our general manager. I should mention her because she's been an amazing part of the growth journeys in the organization. But her and I have very similar values when it comes to looking after people, supporting them and yeah, just creat I think I'll give you this number. I think of the ten people that started working for us, our first ten employees, I think like seven are still
with us. And the reason why those others aren't is that one became a full time mum, one retired, and you know we have great staff retention.
Yeah, well, if I asked you, then mean I used to often get us, still get us. So what do you think therefore, is the definition for you in relation to bog nutrients anyway this business? How would you define success?
I would say creating a creating a community around yourself where you're supporting people and adding value and making their lives better. And personally, I'd say putting myself in a situation where I have autonomy in that I can choose to do what I want, you know, choose to work the way I want, and go and see things and you know, buy things I want, et cetera. Having maximal choice around that. Yeah, and then being able to spend time with my family and friends and that kind of thing.
So your business has been and or has been funded or whatever were the words I through the business profits?
Correct?
Yeah, And you haven't gone out to markets.
No, we haven't. We have lots of people always approaching us. But we've been very fortunate, and that we've banked lots of money tell us something probably really interesting about our company, and this signifies how much we've grown. But that original factory site that we're on at the moment, so it's what is it, four acres of land, sixteen thousand square meters. The factory itself is about original building was about two and a half thousand square meters. Now we bought that
eleven years ago. Now we only used a tiny bit of it at the time, and we got the building very cheap. So it was an old Apple cool store, which we've spent millions on since you know, we've we've decked it out it's beautiful. You walk inside there and it's kind of state of the art. But the original price we paid for that building and land, which we're at now is equivalent to two days turnover, well two days two days turnover of today's turnover, yeah, some way
back then. But just I mean, that's one of the beauties of Tasmani. It's like, you can't build a business like that in Sydney or Victoria. You know, you you would have to buy, renovate, sell, move. You would have had to move three or four times, you know.
Yeah, that mays to be difference in terms of efficiency because you're not uprooting all the time.
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, And look we've renovated that building more and more as we've gone along, and we've even added a building out the back. And again we've spent many more times in the original purchase price. But you know, that flexibility was just amazing for us. You know.
So, how many skews or product lines do you have now, because I'm where we've got three in front of it.
Yeah, we're at about one hundred and fifty. So our goal is always been to be one stops upment shops. So the idea is if you're a sportsperson, athlete, someone involved in in that kind of sports nutrition, we want to be giving you as many products as you can from us.
So let me throw a few act you've got what about and.
In amen?
Correct, yeah or ad and do whatever have you got that's so sure.
To Yeah, yeah, no, it's a big one for us. And we recently changed our capsual size from two fifty to five hundred grams, and we're very responsive. So what happens with these ingredients is when they come out, they're only very expensive. Not many manufacturers synthesizing the ingredients, and over time there'll be more competition in the market and
those prices will come down. And so we recently increase our capsual size from two fifty to five hundred grams, but didn't increase the price of the product, you know, so we passed that saving onto customers.
So, and how do you work out which what's trending or whatever the word is, and and what's and also what's of value? I mean, how do you work at somebody might be dreading but then you might say, well, yeah, but it's all bullshit, it's not worth it.
And look for us legitimacy is so important, so anytime that we look very very closely the science, and we don't want to sell snake all. You know, there's no smoke and mirrors and transperency. Experience is a big part of what we do. Certainly something has to be around for long enough time, but we would normally look at the established science and kind of go, do we think this is legitimate enough? And everyone's rule here is different.
I mean, there's some sports scientists that think there are only three ingredients in this contru space that are worth looking at, and then there's others that think there are hundreds, you know, and we're obviously somewhere between those points.
So I.
Must say I'm like a I'm actually quite a big.
After having learned a lot doing my Broat Project one hundred through speed into various physicians and so called experts, et cetera, I'm a big bever in the benefits of creasing. Now, yes, not not just before women too, particularly if you're you know, I was amate fighter, but like you know, if you've been knocked around a bit, and because it's actually quite good for the brain, especially as we get older. I mean, I don't take it too. I don't take you like
the bodybuilders do. They take a lot more than I do. I take like five grams or milligrams or whatever, two spoon worth. What is that five milligrams? So I take it to spoon. I just know it by two spoons. Yea, how much I obtained by two spoon? And and I tell you every day, let's say nearly every day. And I just mix with the product that's going to taste. She doesn't say that good with water. It's a bit of a sickly taste. So but if I mix it with somebody that that's something else. I can't taste it
at all. But I'm a big believer in it. And what what do you what would you you know, you're in the business. Do you look at guys all the science. What would you tell me about creating?
Well, yeah, I definitely say that's good idea to take it. One of the things about creatine people don't realize how cost effective it is. I think a killo creatine from us at the moment might be thirty or forty dollars forever. Yeah, but you've got two hundred serves there. You know, it's the eight months work and that's totally decent sized, does
so every day every day. Yeah, yeah, absolutely so crazily cost effective, and I would say out of every ingredient, it's the most verified in terms of increasing strength and performance. You know, even has some benefits and endurance too. It's been studied, you know, there literally be thousands of studies that involve creantine. But that's that's creatine predominantly is involved in the energy cycle, which is used for muscle contractions. Kind of, it's not worth me going into the science.
They're how it works and replenishment of the atp et cetera. But yeah, look, as you've just said before, there's there's all sorts of research now in terms of you know, anti aging benefits, you know, cognitive ability, you know, warding off, all sorts of you know, age related stuff. Specifically some benefits for women too. Just seems to be a bit of a wonder compound.
But yeah, because I saw something the other day which I thought was very interesting that women tend to it tends to be busy a statistical sense, more women get dementia than men, and that creatane is actually very good for well, the science suggests that cretan is very good in helping to not necessarily stop you from getting a dementia or and or else office but delaying it, and
particularly if you have had two traumatic brain injury. And I don't mean by traumatic brain injury by the way going through the front window or something you can't I'm talking about played footy, or you were a basketballer, or you're a netball or you're a soccer player you're heading the ball, or you played robility or your box or whatever the case be. And I'm talking about little little TBI.
Not necessarily trauma doesn't have to be huge, it can be just small, and Creatan is very good for that. In fact, there's a lot of studies are saying that if someone has just played a game of football or is about to play a game roby League for example, that they should have like twenty middle grams do this before they play because it helps you actually your brain deal with the trauma you're going to get. And a lot of footballers get this trauma, they accept the proposition,
they get it. But I just think this underdone, way, way underdone, creatine, and it's so easy. There's absolutely no excuse for it, especially if it's you know, just sitting in your cupboard and where you get up first in the morning when you have a first drink of water. I do want to talk about another really important product that you have is hydration product. So you have a a hydration product which is made up of minerals, made up of minerals salts, basically mineral salts.
How long you've had that product? And why does it so important have.
Just before I do that just in terms of the crew scene. Yeah, so there's evidence about improving improving cognitive performance during stressful situations, even helping people if they're affected by sleep deprivation. We have to be careful not making therapeutic claims here, but yeah, it is. It is shown to be beneficial for so many things.
You know. I for me, when I read the paper, will work on it. And that's the sort of thing I do. I read, you know, like abstracts and studies publications. It covers so many things. Yeah, Like it's crazy like sleep, as you say, cognitive cognitive cognitive ability, you know, like if you're looking from my point of view, particularly as you get older. From my point of view, performance is
really big deal. Being able to perform like it if when younger I mean, like may I don't hold you, but you look pretty young.
Someone like you.
You're probably sweet if you just eat, you know, you know everything, Like you all have good vegetables and good steak or whatever it is. But when you get older, it's not the case. And we don't and because we don't and we don't digestive thing as well as we used to either, because you know, we're producing less acid in.
The stomach, and there's a whole lot. It's quite complex.
So when the thing that you get from creeding is like massive, like in terms of dish or stuff proty, yes, really important because you just need protein. But this stuff here does so many other things or is involved in so many other processes the body. I just don't think you can do without it. I mean, that's my point of view. And this one here does support what is that.
Diffusion talking about. Yah, so if you talked about some of the jestive problems that people have when they age. And just to be clear, so I'm forty.
Five, so obviously look then if you've been taking this, you'll go, you're about twenty five.
Look, I'm younger than you, but I'm certainly old enough to have a lot of niggling, you know, knee and back issues, and you know, a lot of the longevity benefits I get from these products. Yeah, I'm sort of relling to really into that realm. You know. When I was sort of thirty and below, you know, it's like you don't think about your body. It's just your wake up and you know, you bounce really well. But now I'm certainly old enough to be getting the benefits of living in a healthy way.
You know. Well, I've only sort of more recently been involved in supplement yep. And you know, prior to that, I've always trained, but I've always had injuries and stuff like that. But I've always trained. But now I don't think I can get by without supplements. So and I just also think that sourcing the right food and sourcing the right amount of the supplements that I need is not an easy thing to do. And then you've got
to cook, and you know, blah blah blah. And sometimes you know, like at night, I don't want to eat a big meal because I want to sleep properly and I might get home late. So then then for me, it's a no brainer. Gets these things up together. I did want to talk about the infusion and the salts because I've had I had a conversation with Jordan Sullivan, who's the fight dietician who is very famous when it comes to hydration.
It's a big deal for him.
And I see that you've got your own hydration product as well. I've got it in my office. Actually, let's just have a quick talk about hydration. Like I can't remember the three middles. I think a sodium, I think of sodium, ignesium and potassium potassium. Yeah, yeah, yep, that's in yours, correct, yep. So, and there are other products like that. It doesn't need to be sweet. It doesn't need to be the one you buy for when you get diary, you know the thing that everyone get. What's
your how's your standout? How does your process look?
Ours is, well, we're very transparent in terms of what ingredients we use in the ratios. I'd say that we spent a lot of time looking at the literature and worked out what the opten ratios were. And it's completely carb free. And some people like adding carbs, but they're cheap, so if you want to add them, you can, but otherwise we want to give you a carb free product. So you've got that choice, and it's just really cost effective.
You know, off the top of my head, that might be one where it's like, you know, fifty or sixty cents a doze. And again there might be some competitives products which are more like a couple of dollars a dose. So yeah, classic bulk nutrients product. We look at the market and said what exists? Can we make a better product? Can we make it more cost effective? You know, and you get it in a tub rather than individual's sachets, which you can makes it more cost effective. That's a yeah, very.
Popular product and we just I just want to hone in on this one here the gut health what are you talking mean? Because is es like the Greens a little bit more sophisticated than just the Greens product.
So with the digestic fusion, we use as many natural ingredients as we can. So we've got the pea fire but the weak grass, barley grass, colrell and spillina and then a variety of fruit powders. But this is both a combination of probiotics which we have in there, but also some probiotics, and the idea there is you're keeping your your guts nice and health in the first place.
We're giving the microbes something to it.
That's right exactly.
Basically you're feeding the microbes in your gut and you're feeding them with the good stuff.
They say that everyone's got microbes in the gut, but it's you know what to what level they are, and you know which ones you've got more of and less of. Is obviously changes spending on the food.
So you're you know, you've got all these skews or product lines. You know, you're obviously doing quite well. Just when you say that the cost of the land you bought, which is riggers, the building and the building is equal to two days turnover. So they just just give us a broad idea like would you be number one in terms of nutritional products in Australia today?
It look good questions. So it's hard for us to know the Australian base. Yeah, yeah, look well I think so because when I look at compared to so we've got our direct to consumer brand, so that's what we are. We manufacturing and sell direct. I think we're probably like three to four times bigger than maybe the next biggest of those. Yeah, maybe two to three actually, depending on
which sector of the market you're talking about. But in terms of those established brands, you know, there's you've got what we've got Aussie Bodies and balance and nutrition. It's hard to know exactly how big they are, but we do know that when they're part of a conglomerate, which some of them are, you can look at the total Turno vigas and then kind of do some estimations and yeah, look, I think confidently say that we're bigger than those brands, and we certainly tell a whole lot more protein.
Yeah, And it's sort of been under the radar a bit though, because as you're online and you know, sitting on shelves in those shops where you're looking at everything's sort of for sale, and we get mesmerized by walking around the room and then you get confused because you wouldn't know which one to buy because there's so many of them.
But you've been one. Therefore you've been on the raid because your director consumer.
And also to a customer base. I don't know what the current percentages are, but something like you know, ten to fifteen percent of Australians you would use approchain. Really, it's something like that, and what people used to say to me, I've never heard of you, and I actually realized that that's a bit of a compliment in a way, because it's like, if you're not buying our products, we don't necessarily want to waste that marketing budget on you.
So we're very very specific with how we market to people, whether it's through you know, fitness expos, you know, bodybuilding shows, powerlifting events. Online marketing is a huge part of what we do, so I can talk about that also. We've got a massive budget for that social media, but we're very good at targeting people who are likely to buy
our products. We are broadening over time because you know, there might be a lot of people that are sort of dipping into this market that aren't aware of us, and if they go into a supplement store or have a look at Wullies on the shelves, we want them to be aware of us too, because we used to be a brand that people would come to after using name brands and kind of going, I want better value, whereas now we want people to see us early on and going and I'm going to go straight to bulk
nutrients because that's where value is.
Well, I was going to say, what would you think then, is your probably your number one highlight as far as consumers concern? Is it because is it because of the pricing? Is it because of the ingredients or I mean, obviously you'd probably say some combination. But what is the one thing that most people think of when they think of bulk nutrients that actually are a consumer of it?
Yeah, I would say that the being very cost effective. Yeah, certainly compared to stores and gyms and things. But word of mouth for us is massive too, So you know, so many personal trainers and competitive athletes and others are using our product. And that's why even though we literally spend you know, many many millions a year on digital advertising and things, whenever we do our surveying, word of mouth is still our best advertisement.
Wow, and where to from here? So you know we've got You're doing really well from my point of view, Very young you and your fairly new business. You're only twenty years old, yeah, fifteen twenty years Yeah for me, that's nothing in a lifetime business lifetime. What's your plan?
So about three years ago we started four years ago, we started TGA project, which is Therapeutic Goods Administration. So we had capsulated products as foods, which we still have some of them, but we understood that legislation was going to change, and if you were to manufacture and sell capsules, they needs to be under therapeutic goods.
Now, is it because it's in a capsule.
Yeah, it's a long story here, and crazily it looks like medicine. Yeah, that's right. But the legislation was due to change in the eleventh hour, literally about two months from the date change, after we'd invested many minutillions. They basically said, oh, maybe it won't change so much after all. That's a story in itself, and you know, bureaucrats a like. But we now have a therapeutic goods plant, which is good, so that that's probably the biggest thing we've done in
a while. So we manufacture. We always manufactured our captual products, but now we manufacture some of them are starting to therapeutic goods, which kind of means that we have opportunities into that sort of much wider range of complementary medicines and those kinds of pharmaceuticals. So that will be a bigger push for us. So, you know, weight loss products, performance based products in the capsual form, and yeah.
What does a performance based product mean, what do you mean?
I guess that anything that will give you eogenic benefits, So something that will help you add muscle or get fitter, or muscular endurance or you know, yet just straight endurance.
You mean outside of creating for example.
Yeah, so I'd say that most of our products, like a pre workout product, our branch shann amino acids, our proteins, et cetera. All of these things that designed to improve performance in some way. Yeah, rather than well, I mean, we would say general health is also performance though, isn't it big taking it's better? Yeah that that that line
is probably blurred. But in the past, at least from my perspective, I used to look upon it and say, we were a sports nutrition company, so that's aligned with kind of performance and muscle building, et cetera. And then there was the kind of the general health, which is more the black Wars and traditional products like that. But yeah, there's been a much greater kind of merging because they're more in our space and we're more in their space now too.
Yeah, because I mean I've seen a couple of other because there are some more there are. There is one particular and I'm not going to mention the name, but there's one particular provider who sells everything in a capsule or table of form and the you know, the chemist warehouses.
Of the world.
Like it's just got a million there of this particular individual's brand in there, but it's all sort of nearly homeopathic or it's all like stinging nettle and all these sorts of things. You know, these sorts of things will kind of hurt and marketing is unbelievable because they're everywhere. What do you think about that sort of stuff? Is that sort of territory where you guys go down.
Look, not really, I mean I'm not sure of Yeah, like we'd have to get into the weeds about which products and what's effective and whatever else. But I think that for us, that that cost per serve and that real value and ingredients that generally better known is going to be something that we kind of stick to. But that said, I mean, we're getting into the longevity space
quite a bit. You know, we have the nm N product, We've got a lot of different ingredients that you used for that, and we've got some formulas that we're due to release which will be you know, in that kind of longevity, anti.
Weight because I want some of them.
Yeah a good let me be your.
Yeah test umy.
I mean no, I'm serious because I actually some sage you love to come down and have a look at your free tractor. Absolute, it'd be good to come down and have a look at that.
You know. I should have thought about that on because I was just quick in and out meeting.
But I could have if I had got probably organized the probably could have come down and spent another half a day looking around the joint because I was you're not far from her butt.
No, I look only about half an hour. And we love nothing more than you know, showing people the factory.
So I love, I love know him and have a look.
Well. The good thing about ours From the outside that original site they're at, it looks like a pretty basic building and then you go inside and it's kind of transformed.
Get blown away.
Yeah yeah, And just the team are beautiful and everyone's very friendly. And I think you'll you'll know straight away, you'll say this is a workplace that people are happy in, you know, Well, that makes it.
I think that makes a big difference to the product, you know, and I think that's a good place for us to wrap.
You know, it's it's for me.
You're a relative to the young man, and this business is relatively speaking, young business, but you've actually been out of carve out a real corner of.
It for yourself. You know you're doing a great job.
I can say to anybody who's listening, I mean I use the products and I'm not here.
Look, I will be straight up.
We do have a commercial relationship, and particularly in RELATIONSIP Project one Hunter, but it suit's been a commercial relationship only with people that I understand that I know how the business works, and that I try their product and I read what's on the back of it.
I read everything about these sorts of products.
I mean, I might be asked some questions today, but that's something because that's how our podcast goes. He's got to do the answering. I've got to do the questioning. But I have read about these sort of things, their products. I know a lot about their products, and I think you've done a bloody great job. Seriously, a really great job.
And your team.
Obviously, success is always built up on the broad shoulders above us. They're really on one person. Even though one person can sort of stand up on top of everyone else's shoulders. But that's how it works. And you've done a great job. And I know, I actually want to come in and meet your team. Now you've got me sort of going. And then when it comes to longevity, mate, And if you've got some longevity thing that's you know, like everybody else in the world is talking about, and
that it's and you've done the work. I don't have to do the research. You can do the research. You've got the people do the research. You can do that got the teams you can actually verify or quantify or qualify. Please let me know because I'd love to try these things.
Yeah. Absolutely, And one thing I would say too is when we get you down the factory, you know, we'll get you involved in the taste testing and we'll get your fear that go through the ingredients. And that's always been a huge part of what we've done too. Like we use customers a lot when it comes to developing formulas.
We're getting advice from them all the time. I mean, obviously, you know, the detail of the formulas is done by us, but we're really really collaborative with our customers too, because they're you know, they're kind of part of a business. And I think that even though we're in much larger business now, we still act like a smaller business in that way with that customer relationship, which is pretty cool.
So I love the sound of that small business, small business acting like a big business. Yeah, I love it, you know, or a big business acting like a small business is better.
Yeah.
Congratulations building this from where you have to where it is made. Yeah, no worries in all this you've been yep. Thanks love for having me on, Thanks for coming off from I'll see it down there.
Want me to do do do Do