Welcome, this is the Men Church Stuff Podcast. This is the show where brothers -in -law DJ Culp and Brad Coleman talk about stuff from our perspective as men. It's a show for anyone who wants to hear how Christians interact with the world. And don't worry, we're real. We've grown up in church, and we want to share our experiences with you. We'll talk life stuff, church stuff, man stuff, and stuff stuff. Here we go. Greetings, listeners here and there and everywhere all across the
land. This is the Mentor Stuff Podcast. I am one of your hosts, DJ Culp. As always, here with my beloved brother -in -law, Brad Coleman. Brad, what's up, man? Hey, I am celebrating a wonderful week fishing. Yeah, you definitely are, dude. And our first official guest on our show. First interview. This is episode 95. And so, listeners, we've got Mr. John Kirkendall. It is Mr., or
is it? Reverend. It was yesterday. it was yesterday okay yeah oh are you reverend reverend brother pastor mister the right reverend the reverend dr john bishop bishop john i'm the bishop of hillsborough are you a bishop okay that's fair i'm a fan of i'm a fan of like making a mockery of the whole like traditional uh uh like prefix and so yeah if it's like a if it's a pastor i prefer i prefer like mr brother reverend pastor and then the person there you go but all of those
things together yeah put them all together that's right dude so if you're a bishop then you get mr mr mr brother reverend pastor bishop john so yeah i just have to put i have to shorten all those up for the uh business card um but yeah so brad you're right dude episode 95 we've got our first interview here um but uh uh listeners we will update you um in in due time about our fishing trip for sure because as brad called it it was his week of validation and vindication
was it ever like yeah so um but uh yeah our our special guest is uh mr john kirkendall um and john has um has written a book And let me get to that title. The book is entitled, John, I can't get there fast enough. It is Beyond the Shadows, A Theology of Suffering and Hope. And it's backwards, but you got to get it right. Beyond the Shadows. That's right. Yeah. Theology of Suffering and Hope. Excellent. And I know, Brad, why don't you do this for our listeners?
I know that you and John have some history. So if you would, just kind of brief us on how you and John know each other. Well, we've been a part of the same association. And we were briefly in a group that, I don't know what happened to that. I guess that program kind of fell apart. We were kind of getting together as pastors. But, you know, we've got to know each other a little bit. through kind of some teams we've been on and just, again, pastor in the same association.
And of course, I've read his book, which I enjoyed. I'm sorry, I have not. It was good. Took some good notes. And again, I think one of the things that I want to just point out as we get started is one of the things I like, John, is in your introduction, you talk about how that this book, although it's theology, like you don't want to ostracize the people that maybe have a different or slightly different understanding of some, that you want this to be a book of hope and help
as they're going through suffering. And I really appreciate that because, you know, obviously even as Baptists, like we tend to agree on a lot of the major points, but But even within just the Southern Baptist, there's a lot of understandings of difference. We tend to be very polemical. So I just really appreciated you kind of starting out there of like, hey, I'm not so much trying to write a textbook. I'm trying to help those who are struggling through suffering. And why
are we struggling? And if Jesus loves us, why is there still struggle? Amen. So, John, and again, I'm sorry, I haven't read the book. I have read the intro. And I do remember that you kind of gave sort of the acknowledgement that you had seen this big disparity kind of in there's not a lot of material that discusses more of like the practical application of how does a
person work through this kind of stuff. on your behalf for even, I mean, really having the courage and the boldness, because I'm sure that I've heard it. I've heard it said a bunch that anybody can write a book. The issue with that statement is that not everybody does. And so what was it that kind of, that kind of got you into the mindset of I'm going to do this? Sure. Well, to be honest, I never imagined I would write a book on this
topic. I had always wanted to write a book and to be honest, The book I always wanted to write was a book about legalism. And I may do that at some point. Are you for or against it? I'm for it, brother. The more stuff we can do against the better. But, you know, I was in a legalistic environment and I used to joke that we made stuff
up to be against. And I may write that at some point that I haven't written it yet, because I think to deal with that subject appropriately, you need to deal with legalism, antinomianism, which is the other side and the gospel. But at
any rate, I have a good friend who is. a godly man the lord has done a wonderful work in his life and it's a joy to watch him grow in his faith and witnesses all the time just a tremendous brother and he he leans charismatic and i'm pretty sure he claims that title um so i don't think i'm calling him that in any disparaging way he he is a charismatic sure and so we're good friends and he and his family will come over to the house on occasion and on some of those times that he
came we began to talk about suffering and primarily the role of suffering in our life why believers suffer what role does god have in our suffering is god sovereign over our suffering is there a purpose is is suffering something that the devil is always doing to us or is it that when we suffer it's because we're missing something yeah and and he and i because i'm eileen reformed in my theology and he's charismatic you can imagine we diverge on that point sure had a lot to talk
about yeah yeah and um and some of the things he said I don't think I'd ever heard articulated that way, and I'm sure probably some of the things I said he hadn't heard a whole lot of. But at any rate, after he left, I told my wife that I have to confess I've never spent a great deal of time preaching on this subject at church.
It's just not, and not many people do. And I decided, you know what, this needs to be a topic that we address not only to prepare people who are suffering, but to give people answers for when the skeptic or someone comes asking about suffering. So I began it as a Sunday night series at church and then decided to manuscript the sermon so that I could turn it into a book. And that's what I did. It turned out to be a lot more work than I expected. The premise behind
the book. That's awesome. So when I'm thinking kind of like about what you were just saying, the first thing really that popped into my mind in terms of is this kind of what you're trying to address? Or is this a part anyways of what
you're trying to address? When my wife and I... um she was she was ready to have um she was really close to having um having birth with our first her her brother died um suddenly of an aortic aneurysm and he's 20 he was 20 years old um that's a day that's a day that will live in infamy in my memory for sure absolutely not not cool at all but um what i do remember is kind of this um it's like a i'm gonna call it a spiritual anecdote if you don't if you will um that a lot
of people were saying you know this that god's plan is god's plan and there's nothing to do to change it granted i agree with that but in terms of how the family right with the loss is this kind of is this kind of like the approach like what like what do we do with this this area of the suffering whether whether it's this tragic or not right suffering that we're going to deal with is as real as it actually is no matter what kind of no matter what kind of positive christianly
or whatever type of narrative they were trying to feed into it sure is that is that kind of is that kind of the one of the areas that you that you're trying to get trying to hit Yeah, yeah. How do we approach suffering? Why does it happen? And what do we do with it? What does Scripture say about suffering? Because as Brad said already, you can't address the subject without
speaking to theology. But at the same time, for example, I was at... home yesterday where a church member had died and a wonderful lady had lost her husband and children had lost their father and all those things. But you don't go into a situation like that and say, well, that's the Lord's plan. You've got to roll with it. We've all heard people say that. But that is one thing to embrace the theology, but it's another thing to say, okay, What now? What do I do with this?
Dave Evans, who was the former pastor at Pilgrim's Rest before I came, he was here almost 10 years. Several of the church members have told me that he used to say, when you go through something, don't ask why, ask what. And I actually mentioned that in the book. And I think that's very appropriate. So in the book, I try to obviously pull from scriptural examples, pull from some of my own. and others to show that this is what the Bible says. God is sovereign. He does have a plan.
He's not a cosmic clockwinder. He's not aloof. He's not separated from us in our sorrow, but rather he identifies with us in our sorrow. And though we don't always see it now, he does have a plan and he does all things for our good and his glory and trying to give them tools to cope
with those things. Sure. And one of the things that I wrote down just on that subject from your book was, and I don't remember if this is a direct quote or just the idea that I got, but the technical truth can be hurtful when presented callously, DJ can fix that, in times of tragedy. Yeah, absolutely. And that sounds like it's probably from probably the second or third chapter, I would say. But yeah, it's true. You've heard people say that
a lot. A lot of times when we're with someone who is suffering, I think oftentimes things are sad that aren't helpful. And oftentimes we feel like we have to say something. And more often than not, that's for our benefit rather than theirs. Right. Yeah. Yeah. This moment is awkward right now. And so I'm going to try to actually appease it myself. Yeah. But Job's friends were the best help when they were just there. Right. Yeah. When they kept their mouth shut. Yeah.
Right. Not their opinions, but yeah. Oh, man, those guys are some. Of course, you can't beat them up too much. You know, these guys are doing theology and they don't have the written revelation. Right. That's true. Essentially, all their theology was natural theology. I mean, if you don't have the Bible, it might be a logical conclusion that, well, obviously you're suffering because God's mad at you. Right. And God doesn't condemn them in the end, right? He corrects them through Job.
He says, hey, you offer a sacrifice. And if Job accepts it, then I will. Yeah. You know, so it's kind of a correction, not a condemnation. Right. But the reality is there are a lot of people that go through life all the time, fearful that God's angry with them. Every time they suffer, they wonder what they've done. Has God angry with me? And sometimes, you know, 1 Corinthians 11 is an indication, and the book of James is an indication in chapter 5. And I deal with that
as well, that suffering does come from sin. But a lot of Scripture gives us examples of people who are living right and in God's will, and they suffer for His glory. Well, I mean, Jesus, right? Jesus was sinless, yet he suffered. Well, and even coming back to Job, I mean, right? The last sort of final conversation that Job has with God, he says himself, you know, God, before this, I knew about you. Yeah. So like, you know, and so John, just in the exact same light, I mean,
what was Job doing? He was clearly just not doing anything. He was a guy minding his own business, doing his life and living it very well, apparently.
But again, through the process of suffering, as I like to call it, like the royal smackdown that God gives Job at the end of the book, even though to, I think certainly to our like i know it's i know it's really rooted in kind of like almost almost ethics but i think just our cause and effect culture that we live in as you mentioned you know like why why is this happening i don't know sure right but but the fact is that it is happening so don't try to seek that seek out
the cause i think in in our cause and effect way that we're looking at it we are like we're trying to we try to figure out what is the origin of this when in actuality, it may have just simply been God bringing us closer to him. Right. And I think Job was a wonderful illustration of that. And to the extent that suffering can give me
a better glimpse of the Savior. and a better knowledge of who I am and draw me into his presence and assist me in growing in Christ likeness, then I can confess that that suffering was a good thing for me. Right. So. I don't know necessarily, John, how much you know about me specifically. So I've got a doctorate in music education from the University of Mississippi. And so I've not written a book, at least in the formal fashion that you have, like through a publisher and whatnot.
But as someone who's just written a dissertation, I've got a question that I can very much empathize with. Was it hard as you were writing this? Was it hard? And if so, Could you tell us maybe which chapters or which concepts? Was it hard to flesh out your own thoughts, beliefs, and feelings as a writer? It was hard. It was harder than I anticipated. My initial thought process was, well, I preach from an outline. My outlines are about 2 ,000 words, sometimes as much as 2 ,500
words. And so I thought, you know, if I manuscript a sermon, then that's going to be between four and five thousand words. So that's not a lot more work. It was a lot more work. Yeah. And the hardest part was organizing the thoughts and knowing what to say and how much to say. You know. Because you don't want to just go information overload. You don't want to nerd out on one particular idea. And so narrowing it down and keeping the
book focused was the difficult part. And even then, the editor, the publisher, trimmed it down some. For example, the section on sovereignty. I really wanted to go after the skeptics on that one and be very polemical on that. But and to an extent, that's good. But if you're writing a book to help people who are suffering, you need to be wise about how much of that you put in there. So the chapter on sovereignty was difficult just to kind of narrow everything down. And I
would say. A little bit of the same measure when I wrote the chapter on Paul's thorn in the flesh to discipline myself not to spend an inordinate amount of time talking about what Paul's thorn was. And then again, the last chapter. I love that. It's one of the things when you said that you brought up in the book, something that I hadn't really meshed out in my own psyche, which
was. That we would assume, and I'm paraphrasing, of course, that we would assume that Paul would have been more effective without his thorn in the flesh. Yes. I mean, wouldn't you know, he prayed that way? That's exactly right. Yeah. But obviously God knew better, you know, so it's kind of a false assumption on their part. And I thought about myself who, again, I deal with ADHD. And you have no hair? Yeah, I have no hair. Dude, you're rocking it today, by the way, man.
I'm sorry. I didn't mention that. But, you know, sometimes the way my brain works, sometimes I get frustrated because I get almost in these brain locks where I'm like, gosh, if I could just not get stuck here, how much more I could do. And I think that really spoke to me. It also reminded me like my dad. I remember one time I was probably about 16, 17 years old. I was frustrated with the way my brain works and all this stuff. And my dad was like, well, that's
your intellect. And I was like, well, if it's my intellect, I just wish God would make me stupid. And my dad, I just remember him just like. very lovingly but fervently pointing his finger and going, don't you ever curse your intellect. Don't you ever curse what God has given you. That's wonderful. God has made you with the mind he's given you for reason and purpose. So don't curse that. And Paul kind of acknowledges that when God just goes, no, I'm not going to take it.
Yeah. He goes, all right, then I'll just. I very Pauline that I will just celebrate and worship in my weakness. That's right. Yeah. The underlying assumption, we would never say it, but the underlying assumption when we feel that way is that we are somehow wiser than God. Yeah. And we're not, no, not even close. I told him the other day at church, I said, look, I would make a horrible savior. I can't even save myself. Amen to that.
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So like to, to, to that, you know, the, the, the Paul's thorn, I think I was, I'm going to say I was an adult, certainly in the last maybe seven years where I've begun to hear this stated, but the more that I have really kind of thought about whether it be, you know, in, in Paul's perspective or in my own, in my
own life with, with you know, struggles. What is it exactly that would, I mean, really, and kind of, John, this is, for me anyways, this is kind of addressing the why, though it's obviously completely speculation, but kind of grounding it in the idea that it is true that Paul's ministry was better because the thorn was there. Right. It began to really get me to focus in on You know, as Christians who are suffering and as we suffer, sometimes more, sometimes less, right?
I mean, it's just kind of the nature of life. As we go through sufferings and we clearly don't want to, it's not just why does it happen? What do we do with it? But are we even willing in the, and I would be willing to say that for me, certainly not in the. in the moments where I'm not suffering, but in the moments where I am, am I willing to retreat to God to say, all right, so clearly there is something that is going on here where God has an open door somewhere for
me to run to him. And I think that with Paul, Brad and I have had conversations in the past. It's my contention that Paul is one of the most arrogant, egotistical writers, not in a negative way, but I mean, like... He knows who he is. He knows who he is, right? James is blunt. James is blunt, but he doesn't have the reputation that Paul does as an author. And so when I read Paul, I hear somebody who says, look, you can
argue with me all the live long day. I know what I'm going to say, and I'm pretty sure I know what you're going to say too. Well, he does that. He's like, man, here's the argument you're going to make. Here's why it's terrible. Yeah, it's like C .S. Lewis before C .S. Lewis, right? Right, yeah. And so for me, I've kind of come to the conclusion that if Paul had not had that thorn, he may very well have made his bed in his own reputation. Well, he even said, lest I be lifted
up with pride. And that's the reality. And all of us are prideful to one extent or another. And just like you said, we're not often. willing to run to god during times of suffering we want to feel sorry for ourselves and oftentimes we're slow to have the right response at least i am no and i think that's as human as human gets you know like i mean Coming back to Job, how long is Job? Like 40 some odd chapters, isn't that right? Like 42, I think. Yeah, so it takes
Job 40 chapters to get there. So I think it's absolutely human for us to not want the suffering, like to get out of it. Brad, I'm going to bring this back, man. This has become, John, one of the things that Brad had mentioned, and I want to say it was in our Psalm 23 episode. Listeners, if you're new to the show, go check out Psalm 23. It's a fantastic show. Anyways, one of the things that Brad mentioned to me that has never left, and Brad, I actually went back and thought,
okay, is this really in there? I wonder if Brad misquoted. So let me go find it. And sure enough, there it was, where the promise of God through David is that God will... God will set a table before us in the presence of our enemies. So in the framework of the valley of the shadow of death, we're in the valley when he sets the table. He didn't wait to set the table until
we get out. And so I think that kind of coming back into this whole conversation, the idea that we just simply want to get out of suffering, the very human trait of that, I think it's incredibly valid. Nobody enjoys it. But if we do, are we in fact risking missing any table that God has set before us to, again, bring us back or bring us closer or whatever, refine our faith, whatever
the case is? I think that's very true. I heard a Christian apologist, and I forget who it was, but he said that if you had God's power, you would likely change a lot of things. But if you had his wisdom, you would keep them all the same. And I think that's true because we, as pastors, and Brad, you know this as well, we've seen people go through suffering. And if we had the ability, we would remove that. But if we did, we're robbing
them of something. that god is doing in them and through them that maybe they won't even know until they reach glory yeah well i you know murphy one of the things that i've done a lot of funerals we've had a lot of funerals i i remember times just begging god let us be done for a while i mean it was just like we were losing so many people so many amazing saints that it was just like and i remember walking out of the hospital once with with another one who was just you know
it was It was very evident that if God didn't intervene, they were soon going to go home. And they did. I remember walking out of the hospital and just praying and like, God, I tell people sometimes I don't have a magic wand. Amen. You know, I don't have a magic wand. But I was like, you know, I really wish that I did. I really wish you just let me. You know, and I feel like the Spirit put this question on my heart. It was, Brad, who would you let die? Who would you
let die? Dude, that's Gandalf right there. And I'm like, I mean, that's Gandalf and Frodo. Yeah, you got me. You shall not pass. You got me. Again, and the reality of that is I would be keeping those saints from their eternity in glory. Right. Not Jesus. I'm keeping them away from Jesus. Yeah. You know, and it's like, okay, all right. And, you know, when God. God loves to ask good questions. After the scripture, he asks questions. And when God asks you a question, he's not looking
for the answer for him. He's helping you get to the answer for you. And it's just like, you just got to be like Job and go, you got me. You got me. It's not an open forum. You don't have to debate him. No, no, no. Wouldn't take long. Wouldn't take long. Yeah, no kidding. So, John, regarding, and how many chapters are in your book? Is it 10? Eight or nine. Let me check. I think it's, you know, I wrote it. I ought to know. Don't worry, man. If you were to ask me.
I'm too bad now because I read it and I didn't remember. Eight chapters. Eight chapters. You know, I wanted it to be accessible and wanted people to be able. to read it, especially people who don't read. And pardon me while I sip a box. No, dude, you're good, man. You're very good. They're not an official promoter of our show, of our sponsor. But Bart's Root Beer, I mean, we're open to it. It's one of the few root beers
that has caffeine, so I appreciate that. But yeah, my dad read the book and he has, you know, he's very open. He's not a reader. The book is about 130 pages. And even with the typesetting and all that, it's really not a long book. Very accessible, very easy to get through. And that was one of my goals. You know, Zig Ziglar said that when he wrote a book that he tried to write it on, I think, a third grade reading level. So even the college professors could understand.
No, I think it's impossible to read a Zig Ziglar book and not hear his voice. You can make this sale. You feel like he's talking to you when you're reading it. Yeah, he was very good at what he did. Yes, absolutely. Well, well, John, what, what would you say was the hardest part to write? Now, when I say hard, I'm really more thinking about not, not like technically, but I'm thinking more about like spiritually or emotionally. What, what was the, what was the part that was
hard for you to wrestle with? Really? Probably the last chapter, no more here. Because it reminds me of suffering that I've seen. Reminds me of, you know, my mother passed away in 02. So you can't write a book like that and not be mindful of the suffering that your mother went through. She went through cancer, had a son, my little brother, who is severely autistic. And I can tell you some stories about him someday. It'll
change your life. But just the battles that she went through and died about a month shy of her 52nd birthday. Yeah. And I was very close to my mom and just never ready for that. So when I was writing that chapter, I was mindful of that. Yeah. And of course, I had no way of knowing
that. after i submitted the book to the publisher that my mother -in -law would die as well and only 65 so my wife has struggled and still struggles to some extent through that so yeah that's probably not just in that chapter but in other chapters i was reminded of my mom and that's always yeah you know there's joy there because you're reminded of what a wonderful mother you had but there's also a sorrow there that You miss her. It's been
a long time since she's passed. Right. And one of the things that I love, again, the scripture, and I've shared a lot of funerals out of Thessalonians where God says, you know, we do not grieve like those who have no hope. But I point out, it doesn't say we don't grieve. It just says we don't grieve in that way. We don't grieve without hope. We grieve with hope. And again, that biblical hope, which is that assurity that, you know, they belong to Christ. They're with her. Amen. And you're
right. Sorrow is a natural part of life. And our Savior knows what it is to sorrow. And that's why one of the reasons I put that chapter in the book, does Jesus care? Yeah. Because he does, and he knows exactly what it is to suffer. Yeah. More so than any of us, actually. And I love, too, the reality, like with Jesus in the garden, right? Jesus is asking the Father. You know, if there's another way, let's do it that way. Again, I'm severely paraphrasing there, but,
you know, he's... That's the message. I mean, that's what he means, yeah. Yeah, but... Do we have to do this? But not my will, yours. Which I think is a beautiful gift to us as believers. Because sometimes we get the idea that, oh, I should just be like, oh, I'm suffering. Yay. Right. It's okay. And see, to me, Brad, that's the issue that I dealt with. And I was one of the ones who was, you know, coming back to the
passing of my wife's brother. This is one of the issues that even I began to deal with after kind of the dust settled emotionally for me that I had, I'm not going to say bought it because I know it was true. I mean, God's sovereign. I knew it was true that Adam's death was planned by God. And if there's a skeptic listening to this, don't take that for what you think that it might mean. But the issue that I began to deal with was I started, I was saying, you know,
Yeah, it's tragic, but God has a plan. And I remember thinking, how insensitive of my own feelings am I actually being? I'm not facing the fact that, Brad, it is absolutely okay to grieve. It is a hundred percent. Okay. It is a hundred percent. Okay. To get on your knees and pound the ground and say, why the heck did
this happen? Like, you know, like, and I think, I think far too often in, in I'll say in evangelical culture, there's, and I can't pinpoint why maybe, maybe either one of you have, you know, might have some insight in this, but I can't pinpoint why, but it seems like there is this unwritten type of philosophy. where when bad things happen, Christians still need to display the kind of joy that they had yesterday before the bad thing happened. Yeah. Jesus didn't walk into the Garden
of Gethsemane going, dude, I'm ready. I'm ramped. Can't wait to go to a cross. Can't wait to be nailed to a cross and suffer and die. I'm going to get beaten. You're like, no. Right. And I think sometimes we misinterpret people like Paul. who goes, all right, then I'll celebrate kind of my weakness. I think we mistake joy and happiness. We get them mixed up. Joy is so much deeper and truer and more substantial than happiness ever
thought about. Happiness is emotion. You can have joy when you are bound up, having been beaten. Probably not very comfortable, probably either too hot or too cold in a prison cell while you're singing praises to God. Because joy, I think, is against the understanding of that truth and then the emotions that go with it. But you don't have to feel happy. And I think you don't have
to feel happy to worship. Amen. Matter of fact, sometimes I think some of the more truer worship that we can give to God is when we feel the opposite of happy. Like we're sad, we're depressed, we're discouraged. But we still go, you know, and again, I look at David in the Psalm, I think it's Psalm 13, when he's basically like, are you going to forget me forever, God? Right. It's exactly right.
Yeah, those are, and I tell you, I can't, I honestly, now I've forgotten, I can't remember if I put this in the book or not, but talking about worshiping in the midst of suffering, a memory that's etched into my mind forever. is after my mother breathed her last breath. And thankfully, me and my siblings and our spouses were all able to be there around her bedside. And she breathed her last breath. And my dad got up, walked out of the bedroom,
into the hallway. And I heard him through tears pray, Oh, Father, we know you do all things well. And I mean, that that my dad, I think he gave me a bigger gift right there than he realizes. Yeah. Because like you said, DJ, it's one thing to say, yeah, that's what the Bible says. But when you're in the middle of suffering. Yeah. Then it becomes when it gets difficult. Yeah. Well, and again, one of the things that, because I think you did mention that book because it
sounds familiar to me. God is not in heaven wringing his hands and drinking Maalox. Amen. That was one of my favorite quotes in the book. I wrote that down. I starred it in my notes. Awesome. Put that in the bulletin next week. Yeah. There's your title for a sermon. There you go. Easy. He's not asleep at the switch. He knows exactly what he's doing. I love the script. Some of my favorite scripts are very simple. And God remembered Noah. And God remembered Abraham. Because when
I realized that God is not like us, right? When I remember where I put my keys, it's because I forgot. You had previously not known where you knew. Yeah, that's exactly right. But when it says God remembered, it means that he didn't forget. Yeah, amen. And he never forgot. He didn't misplace it and go, oh, man, I've let it rain for a long time. I almost forgot. Amen. But God remembered. And I think that, again, as we grow in Christ and our relationship with him, our
knowledge of him, we learn more about. I think in who he truly is, that we can take hope in that, even in those times of deep suffering, that I'm not alone, I'm not abandoned. And whatever I'm going through, no matter how difficult and how much I would rather that cup pass from me, that I can express that. And again, just echoing Christ, but not my will, your will be done. And so it's okay for me to say, God, I don't want this. Yeah. I, you know, this is, this is not
what I want. And that, and to that point, Brad, like when you said, God, I don't want this. I, you know, I put myself visually, I put myself in, in the, in the line of, I know I'm about to pass through a valley of the shadow of death. And if in the case, I remember before I walk in, if I remember, you know, This is about to happen. But I know at some point, you know, God has promised that he's going to set the table
before me in the presence of my enemies. And when you said that, I don't like all of a sudden I had the thought that's never popped in my mind before. Even when I'm sitting at the table in the presence of my enemies, it doesn't change the fact that I still don't want to be in the valley. Amen. This table doesn't make things.
doesn't it's not like it's not like i'm trying to uh how do i say it i'm not i'm not going to find a scenario where i'm going to give my approval to god for sending me through the valley of the shadow of death he is providing what i need to get through by setting the table but that still doesn't mean that oh okay well i get it now i'm fine No, it still sucks. And as an introvert, the idea of my enemies watching me eat is making
me uncomfortable. That's my personality. I know some people will be eating like, yeah, ha, ha, ha. Yeah, I'm like, yeah. Not me at all. Can you make them not be looking at me, God? I'm going to be staring them in the eyes like, look, I'm here. You don't get this. And I still don't want to be here. So I'm going to savor every bite. As my daughter says, secondhand embarrassment. I'm embarrassed for you guys. Empathy is a great
thing and sometimes it's not. all right so so that's a different book so you know yeah this is a different book but uh brad i want to say something um john i've got a question for you i know it's not one that that we sent you but it is absolutely in line with the conversation that we've been having to this point and i don't think it was this past sunday i think it was two sundays ago where our pastor mentioned something relating to the topic of suffering um excuse
me and what he said was empathy And sympathy are different. We have, excuse me, not, not empathy, compassion. He said that we have sympathy. You know, if, if, and I'm just going to put myself in the mercy of the court here. If I were to, if, if, if I hear of, well, it's, you know, the tornadoes that, that passed through Somerset. My Brad, Brad knows this, that, that my, my mom's parents lived in Somerset for years and years and years. And so like that place has a special
place in my heart. Sure. But if I'm honest, I was not filled with so much compassion that I've dropped everything that I've got to go up. And like, if anybody wants some ammunition to point against me, there you go. I just gave it to you. But the idea is I'm sympathetic for them. Like, oh, you know, I'll lift up a prayer or two, maybe three, and then I'll continue going about my life. And would you agree? John, that people in general, when we are experiencing suffering
secondhand, right? If we're on the outskirts and we're looking in, do that people in general try to be sympathetic but not compassionate? What would you have to say about that? Yeah, and that's a sharp distinction to make. But I can see where the pastor was coming from. Sure. Because you're not always able to put yourself in the position of the one that's suffering. Right. And it doesn't mean as much as it would
if you were going through the suffering. Now, what happens as you suffer in your life and then you witness others go through similar suffering. then it becomes a whole lot easier to be compassionate. And can I say on the other end of the spectrum, right, is sometimes that we can get so weighted down because we are carrying the weight of everybody's suffering. And that's where I can be guilty and I can't handle it. It will cause me to be discouraged
and depressed. And one of the things my dad always said to me, and I'm sure we've talked about this on the show before, he would see me in those moments and we'd be talking about it. He'd say, sounds like you're carrying the weight of the whole world on your shoulders. And I'd say, yeah. And he'd say, Jesus already did that. Amen. And so there's the other end. Again, you've got the, oh, kind of calloused or, hey, too bad that happened
to you. But then you can go too far on the other end and just take too much of it on yourself. And then you realize how small you are. Right. How how little that you were not able to bear it. Right. And even like financially and physically, you know, I can't go out and because I sometimes won't try to fix the situation myself. Sure. When when God is the ultimate fix and then God is going to use his church. Now, you know, one of the things that my wife has to remind me is
I'm not the only soldier in God's army. Right, man. Yeah. And I'm definitely not the savior. So he's not calling me to be the main character in his book. Yeah. Hey, Brad, you were needed. No, but. but it's an honor when God does choose to use us. And I think we've got to be readily, you know, ready to do that and to help where we can. But yeah. So again, it's that balance of right. Sure. My wife is a lot similar to you
in that regard. She, the sufferings that other people go through, she just, she carries it. It gets so heavy on her. And, and there's a blessing of that because if, if I'm counseling someone, it's a great benefit. Sure. My wife there as I'm counseling because she provides such a great benefit for it. But the other side of that is she has to be careful because, you know, she'll get really discouraged. Yeah. Because she feels
it so heavily. Yeah. And I'm still learning how to, again, take God up on his cast all of these things on Jesus because he cares for you. And I've. I've come to the conclusion that sometimes it's like a yo -yo and it keeps coming. It's like it's stuck to me. So sometimes I just got to sit at his feet with it. God, I can't seem to get it off. So I'm just going to sit here with you and pray and be in your presence and ask you. Hey, Father. Hey, Dad. Could you help
me? I think I super glued it to me. Yeah, amen. Can you get it off? Because I can't. But he's always faithful. And he will use those times again, too, though. He'll use those times of that suffering, of that discouragement, of that depression, again, in counseling others and helping others. Because, hey, when God has brought you through and out, and even though, again, with
me, sometimes I end up falling back. into that same place of discouragement or depression but i know better where to you know where to go and where to turn and and how to navigate those things because i've told a lot of people when depression if if i see you two days later and you're like oh my life's great everything's awesome I know you're lying because depression doesn't, you know, typically doesn't just, you don't pop out
of it. You wade out of it. Like you were in deep water and you kind of wade out and yeah, you're feeling more and more of the sunshine, but you get out of there and God's with you every step
of the way. And through this whole conversation, Brad, as you were talking, it just occurred to me that at least in my experience with the topic of suffering, The issue that is dealt with the most, whether it's me thinking about it or whether it's conversations like this that I've had, it seems that everybody is so focused on the fact that they are going through suffering, which
is legit. But what we fail to acknowledge and certainly what I have failed to acknowledge in my life, I've noticed and people around me doing the same is we're like not reaching out. John, like you have with this book, not reaching out with what I have suffered through to help other people suffer through it. You know, and so like suffering at that point in time, if we think about the legitimacy of Job's suffering, unfair? I mean, maybe, but that's not the topic, right?
The issue is, did Job suffer? Yes. Did his friends help him, granted, as best as they could, but
still? wrongly yes but not only was job better for it but so were they at the end of it oh no kidding right and so and so as we as we make it through suffering i think far too often in my life i have wanted to retreat away from the suffering so i don't have to worry about it anymore i don't want to think about it i don't want i just need to get away from it the problem is that on the other end of suffering i now have been empowered So if I so choose, or if I, if
I, if I'm willing to submit, I have, I like, I'm empowered to help somebody else through that suffering event, because John, as you, as you mentioned, you know, as you were, as you were writing the book, like you said that you were, you were thinking about being able to, to, to work yourself emotionally through the death of
your mom. you're better for those particular moments where you get to offer the kind of the kind of of respite almost that may not have actually directly come from god like we hope that it would i mean you know because brad and i mentioned uh here recently on one of our one of our recent shows that um you know galatians 6 2 says brothers bear each other's burdens therefore fulfilling the law of christ And part of, I believe, part of God providing respite and encouragement and
breath during suffering is not just him snapping his fingers, but rather him providing that through other people around us that know precisely what we're going through. Amen. Amen. And you know, I think a lot about Charles Spurgeon, the Prince of Preachers, went through great... bouts of depression. And it cannot be ignored that perhaps one of the reasons he was such an effective preacher
is because of his suffering. And in fact, the story is told in one of his biographies that he was under such depression on one particular Sunday that he wouldn't preach. He took the Sunday off, went to a church in the country. that he had had some history with. I think he grew up there or something. I forget how the story goes now. But he sat in the back of the church, and the pastor of that church preached one of Spurgeon's sermons word for word. And Spurgeon received
such great comfort from that. And the pastor, when he saw him after the service, he apologized. Of course, Brother Spurgeon told him, hey, no, no, God used my own. I don't think I'll ever have to worry about somebody plagiarizing one of mine. Yeah, I probably don't have to worry too much about that either. One of my favorite quotes from Spurgeon is he said, I've learned to kiss the waves that have thrown me against the rock of ages. And yeah, something like that.
Again, I'm horrible with direct quotes. But I mean, again, as someone who has and continues to go through cycles of depression and stuff, it's just a reality for me. And again, I've seen how God has used that in me. And he's used that to help others to the point where I just recently was visiting someone who was just, again, I don't want to get too much in the situation, but was really struggling with depression. And as I was leaving, I just really thanked God for one of
the darkest. times in my life, which happened about 10 years ago and where I was just probably at the lowest that I had ever been. And just thanked him for that and for bringing me through that, because I was able, you know, to say and hopefully help this person, you know, that. Look here, when I hit rock bottom, when I hit my darkest day, you know, God hadn't abandoned me. He didn't abandon me and he led me through it. And he didn't,
again, he didn't snap his fingers. And the next day after I realized that it was beautiful and it was great. No, it was, it was, it was, it was a, a value of the deepest darkness. It was walking out of, of where I had found myself in and then realizing that my shepherd was there the whole way. Amen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I tell you, I think if I had a Spurgeon beard like yourself, I'd probably never get depressed. Right? I mean, I can't grow anything. Look at me. So here's
the thing, John. I wish that I could actually grow a beard like that. I can't get past the... Once you pass the stubble stage, it gets so itchy that you want to rip the skin off your skull. And that's where I draw the line. I can't even get to the stubble stage. If I were to let all this, everything go for a couple of weeks, I'd just look like some creepy, besant 12 -year -old that thinks he's tough. Peach fuzz. So, John, where can people that are listening to the show,
where can they both find you and your book? All right. So they can find me on Facebook, John R. Kirkendall. I'll spell that because it doesn't look like it sounds. It is K -U -Y -K -E -N. D -A -L -L. And I'm the pastor of Pilgrim's Rest Baptist Church in Hillsborough, Missouri. You can find us on Facebook and on the web as well. The book is available at redeemingfamilypress .com. That's the best price you're going to get is from the publisher, Redeeming Family Press.
It's also available on Amazon and I think probably Books A Million and Barnes & Noble. But if you're searching for it on Amazon, you'll have to enter my full name, John R. Kirkendall, and then the full title, Beyond the Shadows, A Theology of Suffering and Hope. But that's where it is, and I hope you read it, and I hope you're encouraged by it. Yeah. Well, dude, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's been a pleasure. Great joy. Yeah. So, listeners, you
heard it here. Go check out Beyond Suffering Theology. Sorry, I did it again. Beyond the Shadows. Beyond the Shadows, The Theology of Suffering and Hope. If you're in the Hillsborough area, I have a few copies I can give you. Stop by the church sometime, and I'd be happy to meet you and give you a copy. How far away is Hillsborough from Murphy? How far apart are you guys? 20 or 30 minutes, maybe. Somewhere in between there. There you go. If you were in the area. Yeah.
Go grab, go grab, go grab like a free copy. Yeah. That's right. But, but yeah, it's been, I didn't say free. DJ said he would pay for it for you to grab a copy. That's fair. Yeah. Sorry. I don't, I'm not an LLC. I don't have like, I can't give you an invoice. You know, I don't have an EIN. But listeners, we thank you so much for tuning in today for our very first interview. Again, John, thank you so much, man, for being on the show and hanging out with us. Thank you. It was
my honor. Listeners, you know what to do. You know where to find us. You can follow us on our Facebook group page. men church stuff um we've got an instagram at men church stuff uh email us remember there is a uh we're currently still taking um funny church stories john we'd love i mean as a pastor feel free to email us one or two of them oh yeah yeah absolutely um but but email your funny for any church stories to me and Brad. Our email is menschurchstuff at
gmail .com. Brad, I am in the process right now, like currently as we speak, of getting even just a basic shell of a website up so that we've got something to kind of centralize everything for our listeners. So listeners be on the lookout for the launch of that. It will occur this summer for sure. But, yeah, I can't think. Brad, is there anything else? I'm not thinking of anything else that they need to know. Other than you'd usually say, hey, leave us a review. Oh, yeah,
that's right. Rate and review the show, of course. Yes. Yeah, rate and review. Listeners, if you're new to the show, you can find this podcast on, to my knowledge. Wherever you just watched it. Yeah, wherever you're listening to it now, go back. Go to find it. But we've just dropped, again, listeners that are new to the show, if you are Star Wars fans, the last episode for Star Wars is titled Boba Fett Jar Jar Akbar Wedge. It is a fantastic show. Fabulous. John, are you
a Star Wars fan? I am, although I think... The original Star Wars movies are still better than all the rest. Oh, yeah, absolutely. 100%. Yeah, go take a listen to that show. I think you'll enjoy it. Yeah, I'll do that. But, yeah, so listeners, interact with us. We love engagement. Beyond that, John, again, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Uh -huh. Brad, I love you, buddy. Love you, too. Listeners. Thank you both. Oh, absolutely. You're welcome. Listeners, we love
you. And we will catch you next time. And go be his church.